Killed to order: China’s organ harvesting industry and the true nature of America’s biggest adversary

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hopefully to support our work. Now let's get started. Today's conversation is

with senior editor of Epic Times and host of the magnificent show the American

Thought Leaders, Yan Yikellik, to talk about his book, Killed to Order, China's

Oregon Harvesting Industry, and the true nature of America's biggest

adversary. A look at China's state sanction harvesting of organs from

prisoners of conscious. Yan, thank you so much for being here with us today. I'm

so excited to have you here. I'm such an honor to have you on my show.

Dr. 10 Fenty, the honor is all mine. Well, you know, your book, Killed to Order, is

just such a riveting read. I mean, once you start picking up and you start

reading it, it's just a page turner. It just sucks you in. I mean, not only

talking about the Oregon Harvesting Industry, but all the different things

that were going on with China. In your book at the beginning, you talk about

the fact that you were trained as an evolutionary biologist and you became ill.

And when you were not improving by conventional medicine, you were kind of

serendipitously introduced to the practice of Falun Gong, which over time helped

you to get well. And so that makes this whole story really personal to you.

So tell us what Falun Gong is and what led you down the path to look into this

Oregon Harvesting Industry. Excellent question. And yeah, it was really by, you

know, I won't say by chance because I kind of see God's hand in these things,

but it was really kind of a providence. But, you know, basically, I mean, I was

pretty much what you would call an agnostic, someone who believed that, you know, I actually

chose in science as a good system by which I can sort of figure out how the world works.

It was always interested in understanding the truth of things, right?

And so that led me down the path of studying evolutionary biology in school and so forth.

And I worked in Madagascar. And the last time I was there, I contracted something called an

Askerid infection. It's kind of a parasitic worm infection. And now I'm back in Alberta,

where my lab was, and I end up, I have mono, I have this Askerid infection, and I have

kind of a really tough relationship that I was in, okay? And I believe the combination of that

triggered something called Guillain-Berry syndrome, which of course you're very familiar with

and some of the viewers might be as well. There's some, one of the COVID vaccines, the J&J

actually has it as a known side effect. And it's just, it's basically an immune system

going haywire and attacking the peripheral nervous system. It's a syndrome. So it's, you know,

it's just kind of a collection of symptoms, if you will. But the effect of that collection of

symptoms was it really destroyed my career because I couldn't do, I was a geneticist,

I was collecting samples in the field, I was bringing them back, I was working on them,

and a lot of the fine motor skills and all of that weren't happening. And I had double vision,

and just like everything was not working well, okay? And I didn't know, and it was, you know,

for a while it was getting worse, and then I wasn't sure where it would go. And, you know, kind of,

along the way, right? I sort of made a promise, I guess you would say. And I said, I actually

talked to God as a lot of people do when this sort of thing, when faced with more tell your own

mortality. And I said, I'll dedicate my life to service. Just in case, you know, you're up there

and taking care of things, you know? And so, no, it was very interesting. And not long after that,

actually, I met this guy who he was just someone that I talked film with at a local coffee shop.

I wasn't someone that I knew particularly well, necessarily. But he, you know, that was just our

thing. And he told me that that he had had chronic fatigue syndrome. And he had used this

slow motion exercise and meditation system to help himself. And I kind of, you know, of course,

I said, well, sure, tell me, you know, tell me about it. And he said, you should try this. It's a,

I learned it off. You remember those low resolution DVDs called VCDs back in the day.

I learned it from a grainy video on my computer screen. And you know, there were these slow motion

exercises and sitting meditation that I did. And it just, I tried it basically. And it just made

me feel a little better for the first time in a while. So I just started, you know, implementing it

as best I could every day from then from from first trying. And basically within a better part of

two months, like I didn't really, it was a slow incremental, very positive change. I felt better.

So I kept doing it. And I had like, I wasn't deathly ill. So I had been in the hospital for,

I think it was about a week. And at some point, I said, look, I don't really need to be at a hospital.

If things go really bad, I'll call you and you can pick me up and bring me back here. You know,

it's, I don't need to be wasting a hospital bed. I can, you know, and I'm pretty self-aware patient.

So they let me, you know, not be at the hospital. But as this all started happening, I was just kind

of doing my thing, right? And I'm feeling better. I had a neurologist's appointment about two

months in, okay? And when I went to see her, she basically said, you are in full remission. She

tested my reflexes. I had gotten my reflexes back, which was, you know, that was one of the scary

things at the beginning, because I completely lost them. You know, the kind of like party trick

reflex where you hit the, just below the patella, right? And it kicks. Yeah, it was fully back.

And I just felt, you know, I, I didn't fully grasp that I had completely recovered until she

kind of shocked, said, you're in complete remission. And here's the really interesting part of

the story, right? This is something, of course, I've told this story a number of times, right,

over my life in different manifestations. But my wife, when I, when I talked about it with my wife,

you know, 22 years ago, we've been married 21 years right now, right? She mentioned to me,

she, I told her, she said, oh, yeah, that doctor. Did she ever ask you what it was that you did

to heal yourself, right? And I thought about it. I was like, come to think of it. No, actually,

no, she never did. She said, she said this, I kid you not, she said, whatever it is you're doing,

keep doing it. So she was positive. She was encouraging, right? She was amazed. She's a

year of complete remission. But she never was curious. At that, you know, I'd never thought about it

until my wife pointed it out, right? She wasn't curious enough to ask what it was that had caused this,

right? This, this sudden spontaneous remission, right? As she called it. So anyway,

that's the, that's kind of the story. And, and in the process, I tried to find out what it was

that I was doing, right? Really, right? And I learned that it's truthfulness, compassion, and tolerance.

These are the core principles that these exercises are viewed as supplemental to this whole practice.

And so I started studying these teachings to try to understand, you know, better, I met people

that were actually doing this, right? At the University of Alberta, where I was, there was a post-doc

whose mother had actually escaped from China. So unbeknownst to me, the Chinese Communist Party had

started persecuting this group right around the same time as I had gotten Yanbari, okay? Like,

right about at the same time. And then I kind of healed myself. And now, you know, people were

being incarcerated, being tortured. And this is this, this woman that had escaped from China,

whose daughter was a post-doc. I think in the Department of Chemistry or something that I

had to check. But she basically was telling me through her daughter as a translator, like,

they gave me a piece of paper. It was three statements I had to sign, right? To agree to.

But basically that they were, you have to renounce your belief and you have to try to re-educate

others, contribute to your part to re-educate others, okay? That was the idea. And this woman said,

of course, I'm not going to sign this. That's this is insane, right? And I was just listening to all

this, right? And they tortured her. They tortured her to get her to do it, right? And to me, the whole

thing was so bizarre, right? Because like, what do you mean? You can, like, because you, here's

the thing, right? Whenever someone is being persecuted or someone's in jail or whatever, you think

to yourself, what did you do? What did you do? Right? Like, that's how our minds work, right? And I

realized with this, like, that she could sign a piece of paper and leave. Like, that obviously,

you didn't do anything wrong. And then, like, I had this moment, and every time I talk about this,

okay, I get this massive shiver down my spine, which I am getting again, as I always do. And I

think about this moment, but it's like, everything, my parents had escaped communist Poland in the 70s.

And they had, we had all these weird behaviors that are family, right? Where like, you couldn't

talk about anything from in the family outside the family. It was really frustrating because you

couldn't, you know, you couldn't say, my parents are driving me crazy or whatever, right? And we had,

and they taught me communism was bad and everything, but they escaped it, right? But I didn't really

understand why I grew up in this super free society, right? In Canada, right? In the, you know,

70s and 80s. And, and just, it just hit me. Like, it just went through me. I was, oh my God, this

is communism. This is how it works. They take, they, they, they, it's, it's, it's the freedom of thought

of this person. That's the threat, right? This is why they're person, this person has done nothing

wrong, right? And I, and I knew at that moment that I, that my kind of commitment to giving my life

to service, which is what I promised went back, you know, when I was some months before when I was,

you know, facing my mortality, that this would be my service. I would try to help these people.

And, and, and, you know, I don't know, so I didn't know at the time exactly how that would happen,

but it led me to do China-related human rights work and ultimately led me to the epoch times,

because there was this huge narrative at the time, okay? And this was, it was like a 90, 95

five narrative, okay? You know, we say 80, 20, all that, right? But basically, the narrative was,

I call it the Kissinger doctrine. If we pump enough cash into China, it's going to become a

democracy. It's going to liberalize. It's going to become a South Korea or Taiwan or something

like that, right? And I already knew by the fact that they were torturing people for their faith,

for their beliefs, that this is false. Like, you can't have a society that's that's doing extreme

things to people around their core identity and beliefs that's liberalizing. That's not liberalizing.

But everybody believed it. There were all sorts, you know, left, right, up and down. It was just

the standard view, okay? And so, I epoch was the only media. I was doing this human rights work.

I had these amazing stories. I wanted to tell if people, you know, basically against all odds,

escaping, you know, no one wanted to touch it because the narrative was wrong. The narrative

suggested that there's something wrong in China that it isn't liberalizing, you know, and all this

stuff. So epoch was kind of, I don't know what to call it. Like, it was this haven. We was tiny,

tiny at the time. But they were, you know, I came to them with these stories and unlike every single

other media that I had talked to, big and small, you know, they were like, this is, we live for this.

This is what we need. Give us everything you got, you know, and we sort of my wife and I,

we sort of fell in love with with epoch and have been there for, you know, over 20 years working

with them. Yeah. You know, in your book, you paint a really vivid and pretty grizzly picture of

the Chinese Communist Party from black lists to the one child rule to the utilitarian bioethics of

individual sacrifice to enforce the undivided loyalty to the party. This helps to explain

somewhat the attack on failing gong and you make it so clear that they are just a peace loving,

kind, generous sort of people. And that was so opposed to the Communist Party. I think listeners

need to really understand this and really understand what is really going on with Chinese,

with the Chinese Communist Party. And I don't think that anyone that's in the country currently

today advocating for Marxism and Communism in this country really understands how bad it really is.

I mean, when you write this, do you, did you experience that? Did you go to China and experience that

or does it from your family history? Or where did you kind of, because you write with such passion,

you can actually feel it when you read the book. It's not just words on the paper that you just

really can feel what's going on there. Well, it really, it does come from my family at the

beginning of it, right? Because my family, both of my sides of my family suffered under various

totalitarian regimes, let's say, okay? And so I'm very familiar with these kinds of realities

and my parents, my mother, basically, she had to flee because, you see, my mother wasn't one of

these sort of activists. And in the Communist society, there's people that resist the system,

right? That aren't sort of, but a surprising number don't, by the way, just as a, that's something

that I've learned just watching the last, say, five to 10 years of life here in the West.

But she wasn't one of these big activists that would put up a sign that said,

in down with Communism or something like that, right? But what she was, was she was like a group,

part of this group of what you call passive resistors, which are people that think you never would

learn Russian, right? Because it was, they viewed it as Russian occupation. You would, you know,

when, when the commissars and various communists wanted you to do stuff for them, you would just

try to avoid it at all costs. You would try, you know, there's just basically there's a whole kind of

system that people develop to try to not be complicit despite the system demanding you be, right?

Which is kind of how communist societies work. And at one point, she was called into the security,

and they basically said, hey, we need you to tell us about ex-person and what they were doing last night.

And at that moment, she had to reveal herself because she basically said, look, I'm not, you couldn't

say no, by the way, you couldn't, this is the crazy thing in these situations that I could,

if I said no, I would be in jail. But I didn't say that. I said, I'm just not made of for

this kind of thing, you know, it's always trying to kind of be very light and fluffy. But the effect

of that was that she lost her travel documents, she lost her ability. She had been, like, she just,

she had been able to kind of function in the society at a reasonable level, but she lost all that.

And that's when she made up her mind. I want to have kids. I want, but I want them to grow up in a

free society. So they escaped. And that's, there's a whole amazing story about how she did that

and got my father out and so forth. But so it comes from that, okay, but then the second part,

right, I was, I worked, I ended up, and again, sort of I see God's hand and a lot of things that I do,

really, and just by an amazing, again, providence or serendipity, I ended up getting a job not having

ever worked in Thailand, but I got a job working in Thailand running international youth programs,

which is something I had done. It was just kind of a surprising placement for someone that had never

done that, that particular type of place. And it turned out that my wife actually had worked and

lived in Thailand before and spoke the language. So we both went and I worked in the countryside. She

stayed in Bangkok and she discovered this whole underground railroad of people who were being,

you know, prisoners of conscience being brought from China through this golden triangle,

this kind of treacherous, lawless area into Bangkok where they could actually get refugee status,

UN refugee status and get placements to safe countries. I think there were six of them. I talk

a little bit about this in the book as well. And so we just, it was just this amazing thing. We've

never needed a lot to get by. Like, both that's something my wife and I share. We're very,

we're very adventurous and we're just very happy with, with not a lot. And it was just a natural

place for us to stay for a while. And the way that we were able to help them is that the Chinese would

always pressure the ties, okay? And the ties would kind of want to make, they don't want to make

enemies with anybody, right? So they would kind of, they wouldn't arrest the various refugees that

were in the country, even though they were perfectly allowed to. It was a, it was an unusual

refugee situation where the ties have never signed the convention. So everybody there was technically

illegal, but they kind of tolerated it because they didn't want trouble with the UN or with the US.

So it actually helped, they were able to help a lot of people too. But at the same time,

you know, the regimes would be there. Like the Chinese regime would say, arrest these people,

send them back to China. And once in a while, they felt they had to, you know, comply to show that

they're not against the Chinese entirely. And they would do that. And, and then it was an emergency

because we had to either get them placement to these free countries, or they would get sent

back to China. So that was kind of the role Cindy and I played. We did our darness to stop any of

those deportations from happening. And we were able to, just because of the, are the nature of our

background and, and, and, and a little bit of the color of our skin to be perfectly honest,

we were able to, to help in that respect on this underground railroad. And this is where I first,

so I encountered people who had had suffered unbelievable realities. I mean, there's a whole,

so actually in, I, Shao Fu in the book, I talk about her, the amazing woman. She was the first

refugee, felongong refugee accepted to the US. I mean, she was like, you know, kind of a senior sales

manager in a kind of mid sized regional company, kind of like a, you know, model citizen,

all this kind of stuff. But then when they made the felongong illegal, she became a traitor.

Immediately, and they arrested her, they tortured her to the point of paralysis, right? And like,

and she ended up escaping because she actually got better, but she was able to not move. And the guards

that just kind of had forgotten that she could believe that she couldn't move because she,

that she appeared paralyzed. And she was actually able to escape and ultimately find this railroad.

But like just amazing stories, right? Individual stories about people,

overcoming, you know, unbelievable odds. And, and, and then I saw firsthand how the Chinese were able

to, you know, push what's called transnational repression, push their persecution out through

into places like Thailand and other countries in the region where again, lots of stories, some

of them aren't in the book either. At this point, I had actually faced off with a Chinese

diplomat, where I was working on the NGO side of the, of the UN at the Human Rights Commission

in Geneva in 2005. And at that point, we had become kind of marked as people that, that were not

pro CCP, pro Chinese Communist Party. So that, you know, caused some trouble problems for us,

but it also made it so we couldn't really travel into the country. Because for obvious reasons,

so that I think Hong Kong is, is kind of where I were, as well, I got to see a lot of,

a lot of the sort of dynamic that I was just describing. You know, this persecution of the

Falun Gong started in around 1999, but you talk about, in great details about that in the book,

about where you think it started. But it was by 2005, it was discovered in just one of 400 hospitals

that were performing organ transplants in China. And more surgeries were being performed

than could reasonably be the sum of all execution of criminals, which is how they sell this.

You know, we're just, these people were going to be executed anyway, so we will harvest their organs.

And that was the first time that this really kind of started to come out, at least in the mainstream.

I remember that, you know, we'll talk about that. But how pervasive is this problem of how many

people are being killed for and alive. Sometimes their organs are harvest when they're not,

they're not, they haven't even killed them. They're still alive. How really pervasive is this problem?

Well, let me just maybe define it and explain why this particular system is unique

and and a human rights violation that we would call an atrocity or crime against humanity.

That's sort of beyond your typical really horrible black market organ industry that you see in places

around the world. So you kind of, you need a state actor. You need someone who, who, a group that

can push massive coercive power through a population, right? And they also have to be able to,

to dehumanize a group of people to have so much propaganda power holds so much media and

propaganda resources to basically be able to demonize a large group of people. This is what happened

to Shao Fu. I mentioned she was a model citizen one day. The next day, the loudspeaker is a

belaring that she's a traitor and that she's evil, right? And everyone is sort of, oh my god,

what's happening, right? And they have to kind of get in line. So this is, you have to be able to push

that push that propaganda through the system. I heard there were 500,000 individual pieces of that

propaganda that went out in that first year. And, or I think that was the calculation that was,

that was made by one group. And, and then you have to be able to incarcerate, have the power to

incarcerate a large group of people, okay? And so say a million or two million, it's non-clear,

again, it's kind of a state secret, right? But if you can do all that, then you have a unique

situation and where I also theorize in the book where I think it started exactly. But basically,

they started blood typing, tissue typing, organ scanning people. And now, right, someone like me

or someone who has maybe looser morals than I do, okay, could read an ad and there were actually

ads online and we had these archives, right? That said, in two weeks, if you have the right

amount of money, say 200,000 dollars, you can get a new heart in two weeks, in two weeks scheduled.

So we know exactly when that, or operations going to happen, which means you, you know,

when that person will be dead, because you don't survive having a heart extracted from you as a

so-called donor. The only way that can happen, right, is that there's a database of all these

blood types, tissue types, and organ scans. And these people are already incarcerated, prisoners of

conscience, ready to be killed to order. The moment the match is made and the money is paid,

and then their shift in killed. And that's why the book is called Killed to Order, because that's

what happened. And the scale, I mean, it's horrible. But basically, in 2000, there was this very low

level of some, maybe experimental organ transplantation, maybe some super elites were getting it.

But the moment that Phalangon persecution begins, and they demonize that and incarcerate,

let's sit, you know, millions, okay, we don't know the exact number. It grows geometrically. They

build thousands of transplant hospitals, okay. And that kind of plateaus a bit of 2005 and

grows a bit more. And then by the early 2000s, we're looking at 60 to 90,000 transplants per year.

To frame that, right, the US broke a record on transplants, I believe, last year, 40,000.

That's, that was the number. And here we're looking at 60, 60 is the low end estimate. It's very

hard to estimate, right? I could explain how that estimation has done. Some of the best estimation

was done by a man named Ethan Gutman, who's one of the heroes of developing the research base

around all this talk, this, this material. But so that's the scale. We estimate it's about a

nine billion dollar a year industry. And as of today, there's no evidence that this, these numbers

have dropped off. Now, one of the really horrifying things is that, yeah. Yeah, because we need to take

a short break from our, to hear from our sponsors right now at this point in time. But hold that. We'll

come back to what are some of the most horrifying things, because this is just a horrifying topic.

And there's so much more to come. We have so much to talk about. Wish we could go on for several

hours here, because it's interesting, informative, and very important. So we're going to hear from

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Jan Yikellik on kill to order China's organ harvesting industry. There are an awful lot of people

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code out loud for an exclusive offer. Gross Smarter. Welcome back everybody. Today's conversation

is with Jan Yehelik. To talk about his book, healed to order China's organ harvesting industry

with the true nature of America's biggest adversary and a look at China's state sanction

harvesting of organs from prisoners of conscious. Let me tell you a little bit more about Jan. He is

the senior editor from epoch times and the host of the great show American thought leaders. And if

you haven't watched it, listen to it and you're not a subscriber. The epoch times you are missing it.

You need to be there. Jan's career has spanned academia, international human rights work,

and now for almost two decades he has been a prominent figure in the media. He has interviewed nearly

1,000 thought leaders on camera and specializes in long form discussions that challenge the grand

narratives of our time. And he's also an award-winning documentary filmmaker. Jan, it is just such a

pleasure here to talk to you about this really dicey topic that we're talking about from your book

Killed to Order. And you say that the CCP in your book, you say that it is, they created an

unwritten rule that all Falun Gong deaths in custody should be recorded as suicides,

giving the government a license to kill. Can you say what sort of outside political forces are

in place to try to reverse this? Wow, that is a very difficult question to answer because I,

you know, there has not been a ton of incredibly effective efforts to try to stop this

Falun Gong persecution from outside governments. I mean, to be perfectly frank, there has been some

great work with groups like the Congressional Executive Commission on China, for example,

is a congressional body that has done good work. Okay, that's an unfortunately a rare exception.

There's been usurps, US Commission on International Religious Freedom has done very good work.

Freedom House has done amazing reports on freedom of religion in China and so forth,

which I really appreciated. But in terms of like actual efforts like that would have teeth

to help stop the persecution of Falun Gong practitioners in China, I have not seen much

in that vein. Aside from resolutions that where people say this is horrible or even about the

horror for Sturgeon harvesting, this is horrible. And in fact, in the book, I make some suggestions

about how we could actually, you know, do some things not in there and even that difficult to do

to at least stop our own complicity in some of this as Americans or Canadians. And also,

and also actually kind of reduce the volume a bit. I think there's ways to do that. I don't know

if we could completely stop it, but we could try. And it's not very hard and it's not even like it's

not a bit a heavy lift. Like we don't have to restructure entire bureaucracies or something like that.

I before before I finished, I just want to add one more thing. I was just talking before the break

about how, you know, we don't believe the numbers have dropped in any significant matter from

that 60 to 90,000 transplants a year. Because we would, we would see that in basically hospital

bed use and other type. There's a whole bunch of ways that we are able to kind of create these

estimates, which are very hard to do, obviously, in the first place. What happened was that since no one

really did much for 14 or 15 years. So by 2015, the Chinese regime picked another group. So they

started on the felongong. They've spent 14, 15 years with felongong being the primary kind of pool

for this crime against humanity. And then they said, well, no one's really done anything. I mean,

I'm kind of inferring here and say, well, let's dehumanize another group of people, the Uyghurs and

the Northwest in a military controlled isolated region, right, who are also happened to be Muslim.

And, you know, and look different. So it's kind of easy to dehumanize a group of people that

are different in so many ways. And then, and then they incarcerated a million of them or more. And

we believe they started working on them. And in fact, Ethan Gottman, who I mentioned earlier,

is actually working on a book which will come out fairly soon called the Xinjiang procedure.

He originally wrote a book called The Slotter, basically documenting that reality around the

felongong. Today, he's almost finished a book titled The Xinjiang Procedure, which looks at

how this whole operation works on the Uyghurs now. And he's even documented in one example, at least,

where there is a prison or some sort of concentration camp, a hospital, and a crematorium,

kind of all side-by-side sitting to get built, you know, presumably to facilitate this whole horrible

process. So, and I'm worried, and I just want to add this too. I'm watching right now, and I was

just talking with Bob Fu on the phone. I'm going to have him on my show soon. Bob runs a very

important ministry in Midland, Texas. And he supports a lot of Chinese Christians, okay. There's

been this increase in Christian, House Church Christian persecution with the Zion Church leaders

being all wrapped up. There's still, many of them are still incarcerated. In fact, I just had

his daughter on the show Grace Jean, who's in America about this, all this issue. And they're

starting to control Catholic clergy. And I'm seeing an increase in dehumanizing rhetoric. The

reason I mentioned Bob is I talked to him on the phone today. I said, listen, are you seeing this

too? Are you seeing an increase in the dehumanizing rhetoric as it's being rolled out? That's always

kind of a prerequisite to atrocity. Because again, like most people, the reason why that is always

kind of a necessary part of these crimes against humanity level type things is that most people

aren't psychopaths. Most people are not ready to harm their hell of fellow man casually. But if you

could kind of trick them into believing that they're lesser than or they're evil or something,

then it's a lot more palatable. It's a weird thing in our psyche. And he told me, yeah,

yeah, and actually I am seeing this, the same thing you're seeing. So I'm actually concerned

that the Christians may be the next group, right? Like, why not? What's stopping that? What has

anybody said with had teeth? What policy has anyone implemented that has teeth thus far

to actually try to help stop this? And the answer is not really much at all over 26 years,

but we have a chance to do that now. You know, back in 2008, I was the medical director of a

small integrative health hospital in Mexico. And that was about the time that the medical tourism

industry was getting started. That people could go overseas for cancer treatments and

breast augmentations and all kinds of different surgeries. And in the forward of your book

of Kill to Order, written by a highly credentialed Dr. Joseph Varan from Texas, he describes

that the Chinese medical system has created money by transplant tourism. And just the term

of that is just so appalling. And he describes how physicians involved with organ harvesting

have become indistinguishable from executioners. How do you think that hard evidence should resonate

with American physicians and the practice of medicine here? And an extension to that,

you know, all the things that have started happening in Canada about the maid, you know,

a medical assisted, you know, independent suicides. And there was just an article in the paper

today talking about a woman who was actually killed against her will. And is this going to roll over

into other countries? Should other countries such as Canada and places be examined for the same

sort of atrocities of transplant tourism? Well, this is the horrible thing. We had this idea

of this narrative, right? The narrative was that we're going to change China. We're a democracy.

We're if we pump enough cash in there, it's going to become a South Korea or a Taiwan. We're

going to change them, right? It was a very convenient narrative for people who are looking to make

a lot of money there and we're making partnerships and so forth, right? So that's kind of where we

started. The problem is when you create this engagement, right? It does facilitate change. It

does facilitate, I guess, an evolution of thinking. But what happened was it wasn't us actually changing

people towards a more liberal and open society. It actually happened in the other direction.

Okay, and so the effect wasn't actually wrote about this in an op-ed in the Baltimore Sun a

couple of months ago is, you know, we've had in the last in 2025, we had two transplant systems

that were de-certified by HHS because they were violating the dead donor rule systemically. Okay,

and how does that happen? Well, it just means that we've become very, very casual about who we allow

to be used as an organ donor and what's the lesson? Well, in communist China, essentially,

everybody would mate with possible some very few exceptions is someone that's being dead donor

rule violated, right? And basically murdered for an organ and that has rubbed off on us, right? So

so the answer is, you know, we can't cooperate with a system that does these kinds of things. And

I think that the simplest, most obvious thing that we can do and there's various, and I talk in the

book extensively about various ways we can do that right off the bat without a lot of complication

is just not participate in a system. We we've trained so many of these surgeons. We don't need to

train Chinese surgeons until they can demonstrate unequivocally with an independent inquiry

that they are no longer killing people for organs. Okay, and similarly, we don't need to

fund research with, you know, transplant component by through NIH or other which which some of

this exists today, right? And, you know, we're kind of in the process of trying to put together

to the best of our knowledge. How much of this is there? We're, we're digging, but that's

actually a bit difficult to get to get at some of this information. So this is something, you know,

maybe I can I know you have a lot of medical practitioners that watch your show that participate.

Maybe there are people who can help and gather some of this information and so that we can actually

present it in a comprehensive report to HHS to Congress and just say, look, here's the here's the

range of ways in which we have and we know already that we supply solutions and technologies

curiously, right? They manufacture many things over there, but a lot of the things these for

transplantation come from Europe and the US as it turns out, as I even learned only for the first

time in the last few years, they're always learning new things right in in in the system. So there's

all sorts of ways we can sort of, you know, stop our own complicity as a starting point. That's

the easiest part, but I also feel there's ways that we can actually help reduce that volume

substantively. I don't know if we can completely stop it, but if we make an effort and we, you know,

sort of make it a point and we call it out for what it is, I think there's all sorts of ways that

we can have a substantive effort impact on saving some lives. You know, in America, you were talking

about the I didn't know that about those sites that have been decredentialed, but there's actual

in writing plans to redefine the definition of death because some people that in in America,

who they have sent to do organ transplant, they weren't dead and the nurses in the in the operating

room noticed that, you know, a finger moved or the eyeball, eyelid, fleshed or something like that

when they started to cut them open to the extract the organs. So this is, I believe, much more

extensive, you know, you're uncovering all of this and really exposing it in writing of what's

happening in China. I think it's a lot broader than what we might know. I mean, there was a lot of

things that we, we learned when we went into Ukraine about what they were doing with organ harvesting

and things with, with prisoners and things there. You know, after hearing you're

distorting expose about these things and you've alluded to it a couple of times here, but what

concrete steps can Congress and Trump take right now that would help to expose and halt this organ

trade? Well, so at the administration level, I think there's just all kind of all cooperation

in any form with transplantation stops unless, you know, until there's demonstrated change.

And this is difficult because there's a massive bureaucracy system that's been created,

that's been running for 26 years doing this at an industrial scale, right. So, you know,

you need to have some pretty strong evidence to see that that that system is being dismantled in

some way, right, to change our own policies. That would be what I would say. But also at the

congressional level, there's actually, you know, this is what's really kind of exciting to me, both

at the state house and senate level and at the federal level. There's been an unusual level of

interest in this issue in the last few years. Perhaps it's because there's actually a survivor

who came out publicly. And I, of course, I talk about him, Chung Payming. It's a miracle that

there's a survivor. I encourage you to read the book. By the way, you can get the book at killtoorder.com.

You know, I have, I have a physical, the physical first physical copy came to me on Friday.

It comes out March 17th. There aren't that many around yet, but I'm, you know, it's kind of surreal

almost to have it in my hands, right. But but there's actually multiple pieces of legislation,

too, have passed the house at the federal level near unanimously. One is called the Felengong

Protection Act. And by the way, the Felengong Protection Act doesn't just protect Felengong. It

just kind of names them as a major group this way that was the subject of this organ harvesting.

But what it does is it sanctions individuals that are involved in this. There's a reporting

element. It's not a very complicated or expensive piece of legislation, but it kind of draws the

line. And it says people involved in this, we're not going to let them, you know, basically

participate in the US system. And right. And so that that's great. That there's there's a lot of,

you know, China is a bit of a chaotic place right now increasingly. So there's every Chinese

super lead has it exit strategy to somewhere. Many of them are to America. They're going to think

a lot more about whether they want to keep participating in the system. If they know that they're

going to get hit with hard sanctions from the US, if they are known to have participated. So I

expect a whole bunch of people will exit participating in it just from that. There's another piece

of legislation called the Stop Forced Organ Harvesting Act. A bit broader, not just focused on China,

but but identifying China as a specific problem. And likewise, you know, again, I'm not going to go

into all the details, but but an excellent piece of legislation that would help in part in a

similar way. So that's at the federal level. There's a third piece of legislation, which what it

does is it stops Medicare, Medicaid and insurance for paying for transplant, China transplants.

At the federal level, that's Congressman Dunn. He's actually retiring this year. It's in committee,

perhaps it'll get out of committee, perhaps it'll pass the house. But there's two pieces that are

just waiting for the Senate to to look at. And I think that the Senate would probably pretty quickly

say, you know, this is very reasonable. This is the least partisan issue you can possibly imagine.

You know, basically challenge an obvious crime against humanity, right? And even if you don't

believe it's happening, then you know, then the legislation won't do anything. You might as well

pass it. Anyway, you see what I'm saying? So it's like, it's kind of no brainer legislation.

But even at the state level, Dr. Tenpenny, there's been six states out of 50 now,

that starting in 2022 or 2021, that have passed legislation similar to this, what's called the

Block Act, prevent payments from Medicare from insurance at the state level if we're being used

for China transplants and related items. So there's activity for the first time in the last

few years. I'm hopeful. Well, that's really great. You know, you mentioned in the book several

times that you've been doing this for over 20 years and been a hard time, hard getting people

interested in it because it's such a hard and heinous topic for people to talk about. It's just so

disgusting. But I think now that a lot of disgusting things have become pretty mainstream in our

in our vernacular, talking about pedophilia and human trafficking and things that have been so

abhorrent, what they found with childhood harvesting in some of the Ukraine places and it's, you know,

it's come into our psyche and into our conversation now. Unfortunately, because it's so disgusting,

but it is there. And I think that that gives a platform for people to be able to talk about

this organ harvesting and how despicable it is and why we need to stop it. And in fact, in the last

part of your book, you actually have an appendix and you alluded to this a little bit in our

conversation about actions that everyone can take to get this notification out. Why don't you

elaborate elaborate on that? Well, you know, something that's really exciting in a way, right?

We have these rotary clubs all over the world, but certainly all over America. I first encountered

them when I was doing these international youth programs. There's always, they're always super

helpful people in rotary, okay? You always know you can count on rotary, right? So the amazing thing

is there's actually an end forced organ harvesting rotary club like dedicated to this issue that

it's called a satellite club. Typically, they're local clubs that this one, you know, there were

a few people from local clubs that decided this is an important issue that's important enough.

And they work with rotary clubs all over America and all over the world to basically expose this

stuff by screening excellent films. There's a film actually I just interviewed the director of one

of them not too long ago on American thought leaders Raymond called state organs. It was an Oscar

contender from Canada on this issue. It's a powerful, powerful film. And what these guys do is they

set up screenings. They get books into libraries. You know, this is grassroots local level people

who are like genuinely wanting to make a difference in their local communities tend to go to rotary.

So I think this is, it's just an exciting little structure and it's actually not hard to participate

in rotary these days wherever you are. I think once upon a time you had to be some kind of business

leader or something, no, it's been quite democratized now. And if you're interested, these

clubs exist and they want to talk to you. And in fact, you know, there's someone here in the

in the DC area as we're speaking right now, who is very extremely active. I think she's about

to become a chapter president and is pushing this issue hard through her club and this related

and forced organ harvesting satellite club. And I think that or that rotary club international.

I mean, it's all over the world. It's just not here. That's right. Well, in the last. In fact,

in fact, it's in Taiwan, as it would happen that they're having their international meetings. I

just learned that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we've got about two minutes left, Jan. And this has been

such an interesting conversation. I wish that we could go on much longer. But in your book,

killed to order Chinese organ harvesting industry and the true nature of America's biggest adversary.

Tell us again, where's the best place to get the book and tell us what you're major takeaway is

from this book you want our audience to know today. The big thing. So again, here's the book

highly recommended killed to order dot com recommended very highly recommended by

killed to order dot com. No, thank you. I know you told me earlier how read it. I was so thrilled

that you that you liked it so much. But but really it's I think it's a tool, right? And a big part

of the book is helping understand how communism works. And just on this point of the appstein files

making us realize the darkness in our own society. This is all true. And we need to deal with it. Okay.

But I think it's also important to know that understand that the best thing the most powerful tool

the communists have is propaganda. And right now they're busy trying to convince us that our

society is horrible that their society is somehow better. But and I'm trying to say listen,

you don't think that way. We can change things here. We can actually make a difference here there.

Nobody has that ability because there's an iron fist regime that does this kind of thing for

26 years for massive profit and elite longevity. And no one can do anything about it in there,

right? Until the system crumbles from within, which it always does here. It very much still is a

democratic system. And we're we're affecting change. And we need to believe we can and do that

action ourselves. And that's that's essentially, you know, that's that's why we're that's the

constitutional republic that we're in here, right? And then we can affect our own. This is my last

like moment here, right? De Tocaville in democracy or America, he what he loved when he said,

we make America great is people getting together around issues that matter and basically creating

a structure, which we could call civil society and getting the job done around that issue.

That's the best thing about America. That's what he saw. That's what he has. How he foretold

that America would be incredibly effective. And I still think it is. And we can still do exactly

that. So that's what I encourage and Phil's order dot com. Get the book. Get the book because

I'm telling you it's riveting because even though he you know, John talks about these really

abhorrent sort of things, it's not written like bloody gory, you know, it's not like it's not a

Gore book. It's a historical and a very well written thought out book to bring attention to a

very important topic. So, Jan, I want to thank you so much for being part of our show today.

I'm I'm sure that many people are going to get this book and we'll follow some of your instructions

and that you leave at the end of the book. So I want to close out. I want to thank all of our

listeners for being here today. I want to close out with one of my favorite verses from the

Bible. I close all my podcasts with whether they're live or pre-recorded, which is Romans 12-12.

Rejoice in hope. Be patient and trouble and be persistent in prayer. Well, thank you everybody

for being here today. We will see you tomorrow or the next time on america out loud.news iHeartRadio

are one of the 10 penny platforms that you can watch this lesson and share it with others.

Have a great rest of your day everybody. Goodbye and God bless.