Killed to order: China’s organ harvesting industry and the true nature of America’s biggest adversary

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hopefully to support our work. Now let's get started. Today's conversation is

with senior editor of Epic Times and host of the magnificent show, the American

Thought Leaders, Yan Yikellik, to talk about his book, Killed to Order, China's

Oregon Harvesting Industry, and the true nature of America's biggest

adversary. A look at China's state sanction harvesting of organs from

prisoners of conscious. Yan, thank you so much for being here with us today. I'm

so excited to have you here. I'm such an honor to have you on my show.

Dr. 10 Fenty, the honor is all mine. Well, you know, your book, Killed to Order, is

just such a riveting read. I mean, once you start picking it up and you start

reading it, it's just a page turner. It just sucks you in. I mean, not only

talking about the Oregon Harvesting Industry, but all the different things

that were going on with China. In your book, at the beginning, you talk about

the fact that you were trained as an evolutionary biologist and you became ill.

And when you were not improving by conventional medicine, you were kind of

serendipitously introduced to the practice of Falun Gong, which over time helped

you to get well. And so that makes this whole story really personal to you. So

tell us what Falun Gong is and what led you down the path to look into this

Oregon Harvesting Industry. Excellent question. And yeah, it was really by, you

know, I won't say by chance because I kind of see God's hand in these things,

but it was really kind of a providence. But, you know, basically, I mean, I was pretty much

what you would call an agnostic, someone who believed that, you know, I actually chose in science

as a good system by which I can sort of figure out how the world works. I was always interested

in understanding the truth of things, right? And so that led me down the path of studying

evolutionary biology in school and so forth. And I worked in Madagascar. And the last time I was

there, I contracted something called an ascored infection. It's kind of a parasitic worm infection.

And now I'm back in Alberta where my lab was. And I end up, I have mono, I have this ascored

infection. And I have kind of a really tough relationship that I was in, okay? And I believe

the combination of that triggered something called Guillain-Berry syndrome, which of course you're

very familiar with. And some of the viewers might be as well. There's some, one of the COVID vaccines,

the J&J actually has it as a known side effect. And it's just, it's basically an immune system

going haywire and attacking the peripheral nervous system. It's a syndrome. So it's, you know,

it's just kind of a collection of symptoms, if you will. But the effect of that collection of

symptoms was it really destroyed my career because I couldn't do. I was a geneticist. I was collecting

samples in the field. I was bringing them back. I was working on them. And a lot of the fine motor

skills and all of that weren't happening. And I had double vision. And just like everything was

not working well, okay? And I didn't know. And it was, you know, for a while it was getting worse.

And then I wasn't sure where it would go. And, you know, kind of, along the way, right? I sort of

made a promise, I guess you would say. And I said, I actually talked to God as a lot of people do

when this sort of thing, when faced with mortality and mortality. And I said, I'll dedicate my life

to service. Just in case, you know, you're up there and taking care of things, you know. And so,

no, it was very interesting. And not long after that, actually, I met this guy who, he was just

someone that I talked to film with at a local coffee shop. I wasn't someone that I knew particularly

well, necessarily. But he, you know, that was just our thing. And he told me that he had had

chronic fatigue syndrome. And he had used this slow motion exercise and meditation system to help

himself. And I kind of, you know, of course, I said, well, sure, tell me about it. And he said,

you should try this. It's a, I learned it off. You remember those low resolution DVDs called

VCDs back in the day. I learned it from a grainy video on my computer screen. And, you know,

there were these slow motion exercises and of sitting meditation that I did. And it just,

I tried it basically. And it just made me feel a little better for the first time in a while.

So I just started, you know, implementing it as best I could every day from then from, from

first trying. And basically within a better part of two months, like I didn't really, it was a slow

incremental, very positive change. I felt better. So I kept doing it. And I had, like I wasn't

deathly ill. So I had been in the hospital for, I think it was about a week. And at some point,

I said, look, I don't really need to be at a hospital. If things go really bad, I'll call you and

you can pick me up and bring me back here. You know, it's, I don't need to be wasting a hospital

bed. I can, you know, and I'm pretty self-aware patient. So they let me, you know, not be at the hospital.

But as this all started happening, I was just kind of doing my thing, right? And I feeling better.

I had a neurologist's appointment about two months in. Okay. And when I went to see her, she basically

said, you are in full remission. She tested my reflexes. I had gotten my reflexes back, which was,

you know, that was one of the scary things at the beginning, because I completely lost them.

You know, the kind of like party trick reflex where you hit the, just below the patella, right? And it

kicks. Yeah, it was fully back. And I just felt, you know, I, I didn't fully grasp that I had

completely recovered until she kind of shocked, said, you're in complete remission. And here's

the really interesting part of the story, right? This is something, of course, I've told this story

a number of times, right? Over my, through my life in the different manifestations, but my wife,

when I, when I talked about it with my wife, you know, 22 years ago, we've been married 21 years

right now, right? She mentioned to me, she, I told her, she said, oh, yeah, that doctor. Did she ever

ask you what it was that you did to heal yourself, right? And I thought about it. I was like, come to

think of it. No, actually, no, she never did. She said, she said this, I kid you not, she said,

whatever it is you're doing, keep doing it. So she was positive. She was encouraging, right?

She was amazed. She's a year of complete remission. But she never was curious. At that, you know,

I never thought about it until my wife pointed it out, right? She wasn't curious enough to ask what

it was that had caused this, right? This, this sudden spontaneous remission, right? Is she called it?

So anyway, that's the, that's kind of the story. And, and in the process, I tried to find out

what it was that I was doing, right? Really, right? And I learned that it's truthfulness,

compassion, and tolerance. These are the core principles that these exercises are viewed as

supplemental to this whole practice. And so I started studying these teachings to try to understand,

you know, better, I met people that were actually doing this, right? At the University of Alberta,

where I was, there was a postdoc whose mother had actually escaped from China. So unbeknownst to me,

the Chinese Communist Party had started persecuting this group right around the same time,

as I had gotten Yan Barre, okay? Like right about at the same time. And then I kind of healed myself.

And now, you know, people were being incarcerated, being tortured. And this is this woman that had

escaped from China whose daughter was a postdoc, I think in the Department of Chemistry or something

now, I have to check. But she basically was telling me through her daughter as a translator,

like they gave me a piece of paper. It was three statements I had to sign, right? To agree to.

But basically that they were, you have to renounce your belief and you have to try to re-educate

others, contribute to your part to re-educate others, okay? That was the idea. And this woman said,

of course, I'm not going to sign this. That's this is insane, right? And I was just listening to all

this, right? And they tortured her. They tortured her to get her to do it, right? And to me, the whole

thing was so bizarre, right? Because like, what do you mean? You can, like, because here's the thing,

right? Whenever someone is being persecuted or someone's in jail or whatever, you think to yourself,

what did you do? What did you do? Right? Like, that's how our minds work, right? And I realized with

this, like, that she could sign a piece of paper and leave, like, that, obviously, you didn't do

anything wrong. And then, like, I had this moment, and every time I talk about this, okay? I get this

massive shiver down my spine, which I am getting again, as I always do, and I think about this moment.

But it's like, everything, my parents had escaped Communist Poland in the 70s. And they had, we had

all these weird behaviors that are family, right? Where, like, you couldn't talk about anything from

in the family outside the family was really frustrating because you couldn't, you know, you couldn't

say, my parents are driving me crazy or whatever, right? And we had, and they taught me communism was

bad and everything, but they escaped it, right? But I didn't really understand why I grew up in the

super free society, right? In Canada, right? In the, you know, 70s and 80s. And just, it just hit me,

like, it just went through me. I was, oh, my God, this is communism. This is how it works. They take,

they, they, they, it's, it's, it's the freedom of thought of this person. That's the threat, right?

This is why they're persecuting. This person has done nothing wrong, right? And I knew at that

moment that I, that my kind of commitment to giving my life to service, which is what I promised,

went back, you know, when I was some months before, when I was, you know, facing my mortality,

that this would be my service. I would try to help these people. And, and, and, you know, I don't

know, so I didn't know at the time exactly how that would happen, but it led me to do China related

human rights work and ultimately led me to the epoch times because there was this huge narrative

at the time, okay? And this was, it was like a 90, 95, five narrative, okay? You know, we say 80, 20,

all that, right? But basically, the narrative was, I call it the Kissinger doctrine. If we pump

enough cash into China, it's going to become a democracy. It's going to liberalize. It's going to

become a South Korea or Taiwan or something like that, right? And I already knew by the fact that

they were torturing people for their faith, for their beliefs, that this is false. Like you,

you can't have a society that's, that's doing extreme things to people around their core identity

and beliefs that's liberalizing. That's not liberalizing. But everybody believed it. There were

all sorts, you know, left, right, up and down. It was just the standard view, okay? And so

I epoch was the only media. I was doing this human rights work. I had these amazing stories I wanted

to tell if people, you know, basically against all odds escaping, you know, no one wanted to touch

it because the narrative was wrong. The narrative suggested that there's something wrong in China,

that it isn't liberalizing, you know, and all this stuff. So epoch was kind of, I don't know what to

call it, like it was this haven, it was tiny, tiny at the time, but they were, you know, I came

to them with these stories and unlike every single other media that I had talked to, big and small,

you know, they were like, this is, we live for this. This is what we need. Give us everything you

got, you know, and we sort of, my wife and I, we sort of fell in love with with epoch and have been

there for, you know, over 20 years, working with them. Yeah. You know, in your book, you paint a

really vivid and pretty grizzly picture of the Chinese Communist Party from black lists to the

one child rule to the utilitarian bioethics of individual sacrifice to enforce the undivided loyalty

to the party. This helps to explain somewhat the attack on Falun Gong and you make it so clear

that they are just a peace loving, kind, generous sort of people and that was so opposed to the

Communist Party. I think listeners need to really understand this and really understand what is

really going on with Chinese, with the Chinese Communist Party and I don't think that anyone that's

in the country currently today advocating for Marxism and Communism in this country really understands

how bad it really is. I mean, when you write this, do you, did you experience that? Did you go to

China and experience that or does it from your family history? Or where did you kind of, because

you write with such passion, you can actually feel it when you read the book. It's not just words on

the paper that you just really can feel what's going on there. Well, it really, it does come from my

family at the beginning of it, right? Because my family both, you know, both of my sides of my family

suffered under various totalitarian regimes, let's say, okay? And so I'm very familiar with

with these kinds of realities and my parents, you know, my mother, basically, she had to flee

because, you see, my mother wasn't one of these sort of activists and in the Communist society,

there's people that resist the system, right? That aren't sort of, but a surprising number don't,

by the way, just as a, that's something that I've learned just, you know, watching the last

say five to 10 years of life here in the West. But she wasn't one of these big activists that would

put up a sign that said in down with communism or something like that, right? But what she was,

was she was like a group, part of this group of what you call passive resistors, which are people

that think you never would learn Russian, right? Because it was, they viewed it as Russian occupation.

You would, you know, when, when the commissars and various communists wanted you to do

stuff for them, you would just try to avoid it at all costs. You would try, you know, there's just,

basically, there's a whole kind of system that people developed to try to not be complicit,

despite the system demanding you be, right? Which is kind of how communist societies work.

And at one point, she was called into the security, and they basically said, hey, we need you to

tell us about ex-person and what they were doing last night. And at that moment, she had to reveal

herself because she basically said, look, I'm not, you couldn't say no, by the way, you couldn't,

this is the crazy thing in these, in these situations that I could, if I said no, I would be in jail.

But I didn't say that. I said, I'm just not made of for this kind of thing, you know, it's always

trying to kind of be very light and fluffy. But, but the effect of that was that she lost her

travel documents, she lost her ability. She had been, like, she just, she had been able to kind

of function in the society at a reasonable level, but she lost all that. And that's when she made

up her mind. I want to have kids, I want, but I want them to grow up in a free society. So they

escaped. And that's, there's a whole amazing story about how she did that and got my father out

and so forth. But so it comes from that, okay? But then the second part, right? I was, I

worked, I ended up, and again, sort of I see God's hand and a lot of things that I do, really,

and, and just by an amazing, again, Providence or Serendipity, I ended up getting a job not having

ever worked in Thailand, but I got a job working in Thailand running international youth programs,

which is something I had done. It was just kind of a surprising placement for someone that had never

done that, that particular type of place. And it turned out that my wife actually had worked and

lived in Thailand before and spoke the language. So we both went and I worked in the countryside.

She stayed in Bangkok and she discovered this whole underground railroad of people who were being,

you know, prisoners of conscience being brought from China through this golden triangle,

this kind of treacherous, lawless area into Bangkok, where they could actually get refugee status,

UN refugee status and get placements to, to, to save countries. I think there were six of them. I

talk a little bit about this in the book as well. And so we just, we was just this amazing thing.

We've never needed a lot to get by. Like, both that's something my wife and I share. We're very,

we're very adventurous and we're just very happy with, with not a lot. And it was just a natural

place for us to stay for a while. And the way that we were able to help them is that the Chinese would

always pressure the ties, okay? And the ties would kind of want to make, they don't want to make

enemies with anybody, right? So they would kind of, they wouldn't arrest the various refugees

that were in the country, even though they were perfectly allowed to. It was a, it was an unusual

refugee situation where the ties have never signed the convention. So everybody there was technically

illegal. But they kind of tolerated it because they didn't want trouble with the UN or with the US.

So it actually helped, they were able to help a lot of people too. But at the same time, you know,

the regimes would be there. Like the Chinese regime would say, arrest these people, send them

back to China. And once in a while, they felt they had to, you know, comply to show that they're not

against the Chinese entirely. And they would do that. And, and then it was an emergency because we

had to either get them placement to these free countries or they would get sent back to China.

So that was kind of the role Cindy and I played. We did our darness to stop any of those deportations

from happening. And we were able to, just because of the, are the nature of our background. And,

and, and a little bit of the color of our skin to be perfectly honest. We were able to, to help

in that respect on this underground railroad. And this is where I first, so I encountered people

who had had suffered unbelievable realities. I mean, there's a whole, so actually in, I,

Shao Fu in the book, I talk about her, the amazing woman. She was the first refugee,

felongong refugee accepted to the US. I mean, she was like, you know, kind of a senior sales manager

in a, in a kind of mid-sized regional company, kind of like a, you know, model citizen,

all this kind of stuff. But then when they made the felongong illegal, she became a traitor immediately.

And they arrested her. They tortured her to the point of paralysis. Right. And like, and she ended

up escaping because she actually got better, but she was able to not move. And the guards, it's just

kind of had forgotten that she could, believe that she couldn't move because she,

because she appeared paralyzed. And she was actually able to escape and ultimately find this

railroad. But like just amazing stories, right. Individual stories about people,

overcoming, you know, unbelievable odds. And, and, and then I saw firsthand how the Chinese were

able to, you know, push what's called transnational repression, push their persecution out through

into places like Thailand and other countries in the region, where again, lots of stories,

some of them aren't in the book either. At this point, I had actually faced off with a Chinese

diplomat. I was working on the NGO side of the, of the UN at the Human Rights Commission in Geneva

in 2005. And at that point, we had become kind of marked as people that, that were not pro CCP,

pro Chinese Communist Party. So that, you know, caused some trouble problems for us, but it also made

it so we couldn't really travel into the country, because for obvious reasons, right. So I think

Hong Kong is, is kind of where I were, as well, I got to see a lot of, a lot of the sort of

dynamic that I was just describing. You know, this persecution of the Falun Gong started in around

1999. But you talk about, in great details about that in the book, about where you think it started.

But it was by 2005, it was discovered in just one of 400 hospitals that were performing

organ transplants in China. And more surgeries were being performed than could reasonably be the

sum of all execution of criminals, which is how they sell this. You know, we're just, these people

were going to be executed anyway. So we will harvest their organs. And that was the first time that

this really kind of started to come out, least in the mainstream. I remember that, you know,

that we'll talk about that. But how pervasive is this problem of how many people are being killed

for and alive? Sometimes their organs are harvest when they're not, they haven't even killed them.

They're still alive. How really pervasive is this problem? Well, let me just maybe define it and

explain why this particular system is unique and a human rights violation that we would call

an atrocity or crime against humanity that's sort of beyond your typical really horrible black

market organ industry that you see in places around the world. So you kind of, you need a state

actor. You need someone who who a group that can push massive coercive power through a population.

Right. And they also have to be able to dehumanize a group of people to have so much propaganda power

hold so much media and propaganda resources to basically be able to demonize a large group of

people. This is what happened to Shaofu. I mentioned she was a model citizen one day. The next day,

the loudspeaker is a belaring that she's a traitor and that she's evil. Right. And everyone is

sort of, oh my god, what's happening? Right. And they have to kind of get in line. So this is,

you have to be able to push that push that propaganda through the system. I heard there were 500,000

individual pieces of that propaganda that went out in that first year. And or I think that was the

calculation that was that was made by one group. And and then you have to be able to incarcerate,

have the power to incarcerate a large group of people. Okay. And so say a million or two million,

it's none clear. Again, it's kind of a state secret, right. But if you can do all that,

then you have a unique situation and where I also theorize in the book where I think it started

exactly. But basically they started blood typing, tissue typing, organ scanning people.

And now, right, someone like me or someone who has maybe looser morals than I do. Okay,

could read an ad and there were actually ads online and we had these archives, right. That said,

in two weeks, if you have the right amount of money, say 200,000 dollars, you can get a new heart

in two weeks, in two weeks scheduled. So we know exactly when that or operations going to happen,

which means you they, you know, when that person will be dead, because you don't survive

having a heart extracted from you as a so-called donor. The only way that can happen, right,

is that there's a database of all these blood types, tissue types, and organ scans. And these people

are already incarcerated, prisoners of conscience ready to be killed to order. The moment the match

is made and the money is paid and then their shift and killed. And that's why the book is called

Killed to Order, because that's what happened in the scale. I mean, it's horrible. But basically,

in 2000, there was this very low level of some maybe experimental organ transplantation, maybe some

super elites were getting it. But the moment the Falun Gong persecution begins and they demonize

that and incarcerate, let's sit, you know, millions. Okay, we don't know the exact number.

It grows geometrically. They build thousands of transplant hospitals. Okay, and that kind of

plateaus a bit of 2005 and grows a bit more. And then by the early 2000s, we're looking at 60 to

90,000 transplants per year. To frame that, right, the US broke a record on transplants. I believe

last year, 40,000. That's, that was the number. And here we're looking at 60, 60 is the low end

estimate. It's very hard to estimate, right? I could explain how that estimation has done.

Some of the best estimation was done by a man named Ethan Gutman, who's one of the heroes of the,

you know, developing the research base around all this talk, this, this material. But so that's

the scale. We estimate it's about a nine billion dollar a year industry. And as of today, there's

no evidence that this, these numbers have dropped off. Now that one of the really horrifying things is

that, yeah, because we need to take a short break from our, to hear from our sponsors right now

at this point in time. But hold that. We'll come back to what are some of the most horrifying things

because this is just a horrifying topic. And there's so much more to come. We have so much to talk

about, wish we could go on for several hours here, because it's interesting, informative, and

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and we will be right back more with Jan Yikellik on kill to order China's organ harvesting industry.

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Gross Smarter. Welcome back everybody. Today's conversation is with Jan Yehelik,

a talk to talk about his book, Killed to Order, China's organ harvesting industry with the true

nature of America's biggest adversary and a look at China's state sanction harvesting of organs

from prisoners of conscious. Let me tell you a little bit more about Jan. He is the senior

editor from epoch times and the host of the great show American thought leaders and if you

haven't watched it, listen to it and you're not a subscriber. The epoch times you are missing

it. You need to be there. Jan's career has spanned academia, international human rights work

and now for almost two decades he has been a prominent figure in the media. He has interviewed

nearly a thousand thought leaders on camera and specializes in long form discussions that

challenge the grand narratives of our time and he's also an award-winning documentary filmmaker.

Jan, it is just such a pleasure here to talk to you about this really dicey topic that we're

talking about from your book Killed to Order and you say that the CCP in your book, you say that

it is, they created an unwritten rule that all Falun Gong deaths in custody should be recorded

as suicides giving the government a license to kill. Can you say what side of outside political

forces are in place to try to reverse this? Wow, that is a very difficult question to answer because

there has not been a ton of incredibly effective efforts to try to stop this Falun Gong persecution

from outside governments. I mean, to be perfectly frank, there has been some great work

with groups like the Congressional Executive Commission on China, for example, is a congressional

body that has done good work. Okay, that's an unfortunately a rare exception. There's been

use of U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom has done very good work. Freedom House

has done amazing reports on freedom of religion in China and so forth, which I really appreciated.

But in terms of like actual efforts like that would have teeth to help stop the persecution

of Falun Gong practitioners in China, I have not seen much in that vein. Aside from resolutions

that where people say this is horrible, or even about the horror for Sturgeon Harvesting,

this is horrible. And in fact, in the book, I make some suggestions about how we could actually

do some things not in there and even that difficult to do to at least stop our own complicity

in some of this as Americans or Canadians. And also actually kind of reduce the volume a bit.

I think there's ways to do that. I don't know if we could completely stop it, but we could try.

And it's not very hard and it's not even like it's not a bit a heavy lift. Like we don't have

to restructure entire bureaucracies or something like that. Before I finish, I just want to add one

more thing. I was just talking before the break about how we don't believe the numbers have

dropped in any significant matter from that 60 to 90,000 transplants a year, because we would see

that in basically hospital bed use and other type. There's a whole bunch of ways that we are able

to kind of create these estimates, which are very hard to do, obviously, in the first place.

What happened was that since no one really did much for 14 or 15 years, so by 2015,

the Chinese regime picked another group. So they started on the felongong. They've spent 14,

15 years with felongong being the primary kind of pool for this crime against humanity.

And then they said, well, no one's really done anything. I mean, I'm kind of inferring here and

say, well, let's dehumanize another group of people, the Uyghurs and the Northwest in a military

controlled isolated region, who are also happened to be Muslim and look different. So it's kind

of easy to dehumanize a group of people that are different in so many ways. And then they

incarcerated a million of them or more. And we believe they started working on them. And in fact,

Ethan Gottman, who I mentioned earlier, is actually working on a book which will come out

fairly soon called The Xinjiang Procedure. He originally wrote a book called The Slotter,

basically documenting that reality around the felongong. Today, he's almost finished a book titled

The Xinjiang Procedure, which looks at how this whole operation works on the Uyghurs now. And he's

even documented in one example, at least, where there is a prison or some sort of concentration camp,

a hospital, and a crematorium, kind of all side-by-side, sitting to get built, presumably

to facilitate this whole horrible process. And I'm worried, and I just want to add this too.

I'm watching right now, and I was just talking with Bob Fu on the phone. I'm going to have him

on my show soon. Bob runs a very important ministry in Midland, Texas, and he supports a lot of

Chinese Christians. There's been this increase in Christian, House Church Christian persecution

with the Zion Church leaders being all wrapped up. There's still, many of them are still incarcerated.

In fact, I just had his daughter on the show Grace Jean, who's in America about this, all this

issue, and they're starting to control Catholic clergy. And I'm seeing an increase in dehumanizing

rhetoric. The reason I mentioned Bob is I talked to him on the phone today. I said,

listen, are you seeing this too? Are you seeing an increase in dehumanizing rhetoric

as it's being rolled out? That's always kind of a prerequisite to atrocity.

Because again, most people, the reason why that is always kind of a necessary part of these

crimes against humanity level type things, is that most people aren't psychopaths. Most people

are not ready to harm their fellow men casually. But if you could kind of trick them into believing

that they're lesser than or they're evil or something, right, then it's a lot more palatable.

It's a weird thing in our psyche. And he told me, yeah, yeah, I'm actually I am seeing this,

the same thing you're seeing. So I'm actually concerned that the Christians may be the next group,

right? Like, why not? What's what's stopping that? What what have we got? What has anybody said

that we've had teeth? What has what policy has anyone implemented that has teeth thus far

to actually try to help stop this? And the answer is not really much at all over 26 years,

but we have a chance to do that now. You know, back in 2008, I was the medical director of a

small integrative health hospital in Mexico. And that was about the time that the medical

tourism industry was getting started, that people could go overseas for cancer treatments and

breast augmentations and all kinds of different surgeries. And in the in the in the

forward of your book of kill to order written by a highly credentialed Dr. Joseph Varan from Texas,

he describes that the Chinese medical system has created money by transplant tourism.

And just the the the term of that is just so appalling. And he describes how physicians involved

with organ harvesting have become indistinguishable from executioners. How do you think that hard

evidence should resonate with American physicians and the practice of medicine here? And the an

extension to that, you know, all the things that have started happening in Canada about the

made, you know, medical assisted, you know, independent suicides. And there was just an article in

the paper today talking about a woman who was actually killed against her will. And is this

going to roll over into other countries? Should other countries such as Canada in places be

examined for these same sort of atrocities of transplant tourism?

Well, this is the horrible thing. We had this idea of this narrative, right? The narrative was

that we're going to change China. We're a democracy. We're if we pump enough cash in there,

it's going to become a South Korea or a Taiwan. We're going to change them, right? It was a very

convenient narrative for people who are looking to make a lot of money there. And we're making

partnerships and so forth, right? So that that that that's kind of where we started. The problem is

when you create this engagement, right? It does facilitate change. It does facilitate, I guess,

an evolution of thinking. But what happened was it wasn't us actually changing people towards a

more liberal and open society. It actually happened in the other direction. Okay. And so the effect

was and I actually wrote about this in an op ed in the Baltimore Sun a couple of months ago,

is, you know, we've had in the last in 2025, we had two transplant systems that were

decertified by HHS because they were violating the dead donor rule systemically. Okay. And how does

that happen? Well, it just means that we've become very, very casual about who we allow to be used

as an organ donor. And what's the lesson? Well, in communist China, essentially everybody

would mate with possible some very few exceptions is someone that's being, you know, dead donor

rule violated, right? And basically murdered for for for an organ. And that that has rubbed off

on us, right? So so the answer is, you know, we we can't cooperate with a system that does these

kinds of things. And I think that the simplest, most obvious thing that we can do and there's various

and I talk in the book extensively about various ways we can do that right off the bat without

a lot of complication is just not participate in a system. We we've trained so many of these

surgeons. We don't need to train Chinese surgeons until they can demonstrate unequivocally with an

independent inquiry that they are no longer killing people for organs. Okay. And similarly, we don't

need to fund research with, you know, so transplant component by through NIH or other, which which

some of this exists today, right? And, you know, I'm we're kind of in the process of trying to put

together to the best of our knowledge. How much of this is there? We're, we're digging, but that's

actually a bit difficult to get to get at some of this information. So this is something, you know,

maybe I can I know you have a lot of medical practitioners that watch your show that participate.

Maybe there are people who can help and gather some of this information and so that we can actually

present it in a comprehensive report to HHS to Congress and just say, look, here's the here's the

range of ways in which we have and we know already that we supply solutions and technologies

curiously, right? They manufacture many things over there, but a lot of the things these for

transplantation come from Europe and the US as it turns out, as I even learned only for the first

time in the last few years, they're always learning new things right in in in the system. So there's

all sorts of ways we can sort of, you know, stop our own complicity as a starting point. That's

the easiest part, but I also feel there's ways that we can actually help reduce that volume

substantively. I don't know if we can completely stop it, but if we make an effort and we, you know,

sort of make it a point and we call it out for what it is, I think there's all sorts of ways that

we can have a substantive effort impact on saving some lives. You know, in America, you were talking

about that I didn't know that about those sites that have been decredentialed, but there's

actual in writing plans to redefine the definition of death because some people that in in America,

who they have sent to do organ transplant, they weren't dead and the nurses in the in the operating

room noticed that, you know, a finger moved or the eyeball, eye-led fleshed or something like that

when they started to cut them open to the extract the organs. So this is, I believe, much more

extensive. You know, you're uncovering all of this and really exposing it in writing of what's

happening in China. I think it's a lot broader than what we might know. I mean, there was a lot of

things that we we learned when we went into Ukraine about what they were doing with organ harvesting

and things with prisoners and things there. You know, after hearing your disturbing expose about

these things and you've alluded to it a couple of times here, but what concrete steps can Congress

and Trump take right now that would help to expose and halt this organ trade? Well, so at the

administration level, I think there's just all kind of all cooperation in any form with transplantation

stops unless, you know, until there's demonstrated change. And this is difficult because there's a

massive bureaucracy system that's been created that's been running for 26 years doing this

at an industrial scale, right? So, you know, this we need to have some pretty strong evidence

to see that that that system is being dismantled in some way, right, to change our own policies.

That would be what I would say. But also at the congressional level, there's actually, you know,

this is what's really kind of exciting to me, both at the state house and senate level and at the

federal level. There's been an unusual level of interest in this issue in the last few years.

Perhaps it's because there's actually a survivor who came out publicly. And I, of course, I talk

about him, Chung Payming. It's a miracle that there's a survivor. I encourage you to read the book.

By the way, you can get the book at killtoorder.com. You know, I have I have a physical the physical first

physical copy came to me on Friday. It comes out March 17th. There aren't that many around yet,

but I'm, you know, it's kind of surreal almost to have it in my hands, right? But, but there's

actually multiple pieces of legislation to have passed the house at the federal level near unanimously.

One is called the Felengong Protection Act. And by the way, the Felengong Protection Act doesn't

just protect Felengong. It just kind of names them as a major group this way that was the subject

of this organ harvesting. But what it does is it sanctions individuals that are involved in this.

It create there's a reporting element. It's not a very complicated or expensive piece of legislation,

but it kind of draws the line. And it says people involved in this, we're not going to let them,

you know, basically participate in the US system. And, right? And so that, that's great. There's

there's a lot of, you know, China is a bit of a chaotic place right now, increasingly. So

there's every Chinese super lead has it exit strategy to somewhere. Many of them are to America.

They're going to think a lot more about whether they want to keep participating in the system if

they know that they're going to get hit with hard sanctions from the US if they are known to

have participated. So I expect a whole bunch of people will exit participating. And it just from

that there's another piece of legislation called the stop forced organ harvesting act a bit broader,

not just focused on China, but but identifying China as a specific problem. And likewise,

you know, again, I'm not going to go into all the details, but but an excellent piece of legislation

that would help in part in a similar way. So that's at the federal level. There's a third piece of

legislation, which what it does is it stops Medicare, Medicaid, and insurance for paying for

transplant China transplants at the federal level. That's Congressman Dunn. He's actually retiring

this year. It's in committee, perhaps it'll get out of committee, perhaps it'll pass the house.

But there's two pieces that are just waiting for the Senate to to look at. And I think that the

Senate would probably pretty quickly say, you know, this is this is very reasonable. This is the

least partisan issue you can possibly imagine, you know, basically challenge an obvious crime

against humanity, right? Like and even if you don't believe it's happening, then you know,

then the legislation won't do anything. You might as well pass it anyway. You see what I'm saying?

So it's like, it's kind of no brainer legislation. But even at the state level, Dr. Tenpenny,

there's been six states out of 50 now that starting in 2022 or 2021 that have passed

legislation similar to this, what's called the block act prevents payments from Medicare,

from insurance at the state level if we're being used for China transplants and related items.

So there's so there's activity for the first time in the last few years. I'm hopeful.

Well, that's really great. You know, you mentioned in the book several times that you've been doing

this for over 20 years and been a hard time, hard getting people interested in it because it's

such a hard and heinous just a topic for people to talk about. It's just so disgusting. But I think now

that a lot of disgusting things have become pretty mainstream in our in our vernacular talking

about pedophilia and human trafficking and things that have been so abhorrent what they found with

childhood harvesting in some of the Ukraine places. And it's, you know, it's come into our psyche

and into our conversation now. Unfortunately, because it's so disgusting, but it is there.

And I think that that gives a platform for people to be able to talk about this organ harvesting

and how despicable it is and why we need to stop it. And in fact, in the last part of your book,

you actually have an appendix and you alluded to this a little bit in our conversation about

actions that everyone can take to get this notification out. Why don't you elaborate on that a little

well, you know, something that's really exciting in a way, right? We have these rotary clubs all over

the world, all over the world, but certainly all over America. I first encountered them when I was

doing these international youth programs. There's always, they're always super helpful people

in rotary. Okay, you always know you can count on rotary, right? So the amazing thing is there's

actually an end forced organ harvesting rotary club like dedicated to this issue that it's called

the satellite club, typically they're local clubs that this one, you know, there were a few people

from local clubs that decided this is an important issue that's important enough. And they work with

rotary clubs all over America and all over the world to basically expose this stuff by screening

excellent films. There's a film actually I just interviewed the director of one of them not too

long ago on American thought leaders Raymond called state organs. It was an Oscar contender from

Canada on this issue. It's a powerful, powerful film. And what these guys do is they set up screenings.

They get books into libraries. You know, this is grassroots local level people who are like genuinely

wanting to make a difference in their local communities tend to go to rotary. So I think this is

it's just an exciting little structure and it's actually not hard to participate in rotary these

days wherever you are. I think once upon a time you had to be some kind of business leader or something

no, it's been quite democratized now. And if you're interested these clubs exist and they want

to talk to you. In fact, you know, there's someone here in the in the DC area as we're speaking

right now, who is very extremely active. I think she's about to become a chapter president and

is pushing this issue hard through her club and this related and forced organ harvesting satellite

club. And I think that or that rotary club international. I mean, it's all over the world. It's

just not here. That's right. Well, in the last. In fact, in fact, it's in Taiwan as it would happen

that they're having their international meetings. I just learned that. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, we've got about two minutes left, Jan. And this has been such an interesting conversation.

I wish that we could go on much longer. But in your book, kill to order Chinese organ harvesting

industry and the true nature of America's biggest adversary. Tell us again, where's the best place

to get the book and tell us what you're major takeaway is from this book you want our audience to

know today. The big thing. So again, here's the book highly recommended killed to order dot com

recommended very highly recommended by you to order dot com. No, thank you. I know you told me

earlier how read it. I was so thrilled that you that you liked it so much. But but really it's

I think it's a tool, right? And a big part of the book is helping understand how communism works.

And just on this point of the Epstein files making us realize the darkness in our own society.

This is all true. And we need to deal with it. Okay. But I think it's also important to know that

understand that the best thing the most powerful tool the communists have is propaganda. And right now

they're busy trying to convince us that our society is horrible that their society is somehow better.

But I'm trying to say listen, you don't think that way. We can change things here. We can actually

make a difference here there. Nobody has that ability because there's an iron fist regime

that does this kind of thing for 26 years for massive profit and elite longevity.

And no one can do anything about it in there, right? Until the system crumbles from within,

which it always does here. It very much still is a democratic system. And we're we're affecting

change. And we need to believe we can and do that action ourselves. And that's that's essentially,

you know, that's that's why we're that's the constitutional republic that we're in here, right?

And then we can affect our own. This is my last like moment here, right? De Tocaville

in democracy or America, what he loved when he said we make America great is people getting

together around issues that matter and basically creating a structure, which we could call civil

society and getting the job done around that issue. That's the best thing about America. That's

what he saw. That's what he has. How he foretold that America would be incredibly effective. And

I still think it is. And we can still do exactly that. So that's what I encourage. And tiltorder.com,

get the book. Get the book because I'm telling you it's riveting because even though he, you know,

Jan talks about these really, uh, of foreign sort of things, it's not written like bloody gory,

you know, it's not like, it's not a gory book. It's a historical and a very well written thought

out book to bring attention to a very important topic. So, Jan, I want to thank you so much for being

part of our show today. I'm, I'm sure that many people are going to get this book and we'll

follow some of your instructions and that you leave at the end of the book. So I want to close out,

want to thank all of our listeners for being here today. I want to close out with one of my

favorite verses from the Bible. I close all my podcasts with whether they're live or pre-recorded,

which is Romans 12-12. Rejoice in hope, be patient and trouble and be persistent and prayer.

Well, thank you everybody for being here today. We will see you tomorrow or the next time

on americaoutloud.news iHeartRadio are one of the 10 penny platforms that you can watch

this, listen and share it with others. Have a great rest of your day, everybody. Goodbye and God bless.