Killer of the Week: "Doomsday Mom," Lori Vallow Daybell Pt. 1

0:00Hi listeners, it's Vanessa. Are you the type to fall down an internet rabbit hole and not come up for hours? You'll love crimes of Reddit. A new crime house original with Sabrina, Diana, Roge, and Alexis Linklenter. Every week, one host brings real true crime stories from Reddit, while the other reacts completely blind. No prep, no spoilers, then they swab. It's the feeling of sending your group chat a Reddit 2am that starts with, you have to see this. Sabrina and Alexis are in the chat with you. Follow crimes of Reddit on Apple podcasts and Spotify, or subscribe at crimes of Reddit pod on YouTube. This is Crime House. A mother, a true believer, a killer. Laurie Valodaybel grew up desperate for love and found it only in faith, but that faith

1:00curdled into something unrecognizable. Before the bodies of her own children were found buried in her husband's backyard, there were years of trauma, manipulation, and warning signs that nobody stopped in time. Welcome to Crime House 24-7. I'm Vanessa Richardson. Twice a day every day we bring you the best, most timely and gripping cases from across the entire Crime House network, all in one place, right here. And every Monday is killer of the week, where we go inside the minds and motives of the world's most notorious murderers. Today we're opening the file on Laurie Valodaybel, and this case is far from finished. Chad Debel's trial on murder charges, including the deaths of Laurie's two children, has drawn national attention, with court proceedings ongoing and questions still being answered about who knew what and when. This community exists because of listeners like you. Want even more? Join Crime House Plus for every episode of Crime House 24-7, Add Free.

2:04Not only that, but you'll get complete access to an exclusive limited series every month, and early, add free access to all Crime House shows and bonus episodes. Go to CrimeHousePlus.com or on Apple Podcasts, tap Try Free at the top of the Crime House 24-7 page. Now Dr. Tristan Engels joins me to break down the psychology behind the trauma, the neglect, and the dangerous belief system that set Laurie Valodaybel on a path toward the unthinkable. All any child wants is their parents love. Feeling cared for can be the difference between a happy life or a troubled one. Sadly, for Laurie Valodaybel, misery was always in the cards. Laurie was born on June 26, 1973 in Rialto, California, a suburban city 56 miles east of Los Angeles.

3:04Her parents, Janice, and Barry Cox had five kids. Laurie was the second youngest. Barry sold life insurance for a living, and the family was well off, but they didn't use that money to create a loving home. Instead, Barry and Janice went on weekend trips to Hawaii, often leaving the kids behind to fend for themselves. Laurie was only about seven years old when her parents started these weekend getaways. They gave blank checks to one of their older sons, Alex, who was 12, to buy food. But Alex used the money to throw house parties instead. They looked to their parents or their primary caregivers as role models. They observed and metate and learn from them, including how to view the world, how to communicate, how to self-stose, and their sense of security, their worth, and their value. With that understanding, these weekend getaways could have inadvertently taught their children that material things like vacations are more important than they are.

4:04They could be teaching their children that they value their own interests as parents over their responsibilities or over their children as a whole. We can see that this is already being imitated by Alex because he's choosing to prioritize throwing house parties over the responsibility that he was given in their parents' absence. I think this is a critical experience for Laurie and who she would become because, interestingly, she mimics this exact thing as an adult with Hawaii, which we will get into as we progress through the story. What would it feel like to also have your older sibling, Alex, who's supposed to be taking care of you, focusing on partying instead? Children look up to older siblings as role models as well, and particularly at Laurie's age now in the story, she's seven years old. So when she's seeing that Alex is also doing the same thing, he's prioritizing self-interest over responsibilities. It's just reinforcing to her that, for example, selfishness is normal and expected.

5:06So what Laurie doesn't know at this point is because she's too young is that Alex is also too young to be taking on the role of a parent not to mention parenting for children every weekend. And based on what you described, their parents are showing signs of neglectful parenting style, and that's characterized by little involvement, low responsiveness, and a lack of emotional support and guidance. And the long-term outcomes of this parenting style on children include low self-esteem, academic and behavioral struggles, poor emotional regulation, and unhealthy attachments to others. So we're going to see these outcomes sort of take place in Laurie as we go through the story. Fortunately, Laurie managed to feed herself and her younger sister, likely with whatever she could find in the pantry. She never went to a neighbor for help, probably because she didn't want to get her parents in trouble. In fact, it doesn't seem like any of their neighbors realized what was happening, because Barry and Janice were good at pretending to be wholesome, attentive parents, mainly by

6:06taking the family to church every Sunday. Barry and Janice could, unfortunately, also be teaching their children that appearances, even if they're not authentic, are synonymous with being honest or righteous when that's actually not the case. It wasn't all for show, though. The coxes were Mormon and belonged to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or LDS. Barry was serious about his faith. He tutored all his kids in Scripture, and he paid special attention to Laurie. She was more interested in the book of Mormon than her siblings. By the time she was eight, Laurie understood the underlying messages better than any of them. Barry gave her individual lessons, which were sometimes so powerful they moved Laurie to tears. And the more attention Barry paid to her, the more she threw herself into religion. Laurie began to view her father, almost like a god in his own right. She was captivated by his spiritual fervor. But these lessons were the only time he ever paid attention to her, otherwise he didn't

7:09keep a close eye on what the kids were up to. So he had no idea that Laurie didn't feel safe inside her own home. Laurie and her friend, who we'll call Samantha, used to spend a lot of time in the coxes pool when they were kids. As they noticed Laurie's older brother, Alex, watching them, Samantha said it made her feel uncomfortable. And as they got older, things only got worse. According to Samantha, when the girls were in seventh grade, Laurie reportedly said that Alex had been making sexual advances toward her. Reportedly Laurie didn't provide a lot of detail, but the confession left her sobbing in Samantha's arms. The unfortunate reality regarding sexual abuse is that when it comes to juveniles, 33% of the time they know their abuser, and 34% of the abusers were family members. In fact, research has shown that sibling sexual abuse is more common than parental sexual abuse. And one common finding among cases of sibling sexual abuse was a dysfunctional family

8:13environment, which arguably appears to be the case here with Laurie. Sibling sexual abuse affects the survivor's ability to trust others, both men and women. They can create a negative sense of self-worth and cause intrusive thoughts. They are also at an increased risk of developing complex post-traumatic stress disorder, especially if the abuse is prolonged, including depression, anxiety, substance abuse, and deficits in academic and behavioral functioning. Could Laurie's young age have made her especially susceptible to lasting trauma? And how might it have affected her concept of romantic relationships? Yeah, it absolutely could have made her more susceptible. She's more vulnerable, but also it's starting so young, which means it could be prolonged even more. Also, it makes me wonder if this happened to her younger sister as well, or if she was singled out because of the individualized attention she got from her father that Alex was witnessing. Because remember, children, they observe and they mimic. So maybe this specialized attention was something that Alex was seeing and then wanted to carry

9:18out on his own. But regarding the impact of this, the reality is the effects vary by individual. Some survivors will become more inhibited as adults, feeling uncomfortable romantically due to the mistrust of others and having an overall fear of sexual intimacy of any kind, whereas others may be on the opposite spectrum. They may become hypersexual and engage in promiscuous or risky behavior. Both are maladaptive forms of protection. Now I've never met nor have I evaluated Laurie Valodé-Bel. So this is purely educational, purpose is only and I'm not formally diagnosing. I'm not giving any formal clinical opinions. But with that in mind, I have seen her in some of the documentaries and I've seen video of her during her current criminal trials. And consistent with the publicly disclosed diagnosis that was given, there does appear to be narcissistic and histrionic traits consistent with a personality disorder. These traits would stem from her unstable childhood, that early sexual trauma, if it did

10:18occur, and the core value she was taught from her parents regarding appearances, reputation and material things. We don't know for sure if Alex ever sexually abused Laurie. After that day, Laurie never mentioned it again, but we do know that neither she nor Samantha ever told an adult about it, which meant no one could offer Laurie any support or counseling. And as she got older, it seemed like the experience did impact Laurie's romantic life. During her senior year of high school, she started dating a boy named Nelson Yanes. Nelson wasn't Mormon, so Laurie's parents didn't approve of him, neither did Samantha. But her problem didn't have to do with religion. Nelson reportedly had a hot temper and would yell at Laurie a lot at school. Samantha felt uncomfortable around him, so she stopped spending time with Laurie in order to avoid Nelson. Isolation and alienation from others due to a romantic relationship is a sign potentially

11:19of intimate partner violence. And without Samantha's support, Laurie became even more dependent on Nelson. When she was 18 and they both graduated from high school, they moved in together. About a year later, in 1992, Laurie and Nelson decided to get married, which Laurie's parents definitely didn't approve of. So the couple eloped in Las Vegas. The newlyweds were determined to face the world together. But it wasn't meant to be. They got divorced after only a year. Ready for a fresh start, Laurie moved to Austin, Texas, since another one of her older brothers lived there with his fiancee. Once there, Laurie enrolled in beauty school and got a job as a hairstylest. But just as things were starting to look up for Laurie, another ill-fated relationship dragged her down. In 1993, when she was 20 years old, Laurie met a guy named William LaJola. He was a year older than her, and by July 1995, they were living together.

12:23Just like Nelson, William wasn't Mormon. But this time around, Laurie wanted to be with someone who shared her faith. She tried to persuade William to convert, but he wouldn't budge. It led to a lot of tension that eventually boiled over. One night later in 1995, they got into an explosive argument. William lost his temper and reportedly hit Laurie in the face. She called the police, and William was charged with assault. But Laurie didn't show up to court, so the charges were dropped. That's likely because she didn't want William to go to jail. Laurie had recently found out she was pregnant, and she didn't want to be a single mother. So instead of ending things, the two got married that October, just three months after William assaulted Laurie. Once again, none of Laurie's friends or family came to the ceremony. They knew it was happening between Laurie and William, and they refused to support their marriage. So I mentioned a bit ago a common tactic of intimate partner violence as the isolation

13:27or alienation of the victim from any source of support. That's because the goal is to make them emotionally, physically, financially, and socially dependent on their abuser, so they will struggle to leave. Laurie being pregnant, as you mentioned, makes her even more vulnerable to that dependency. She's at an increased risk of depression, anxiety, post-eroic stress disorder, and even deficits in her ability to bond with her baby. And the fact that he's been physically violent toward her also puts the baby at risk. If he continues to be abusive while she's pregnant, there could be prenatal injuries as well. And also to understand the emotional toll that this likely had on Laurie, we have to factor in her religious beliefs. She was pregnant out of wedlock and premarital sex is considered a sin within her religion. So if she was feeling a loss of support from family and friends because of her relationship, then maintaining the support of her higher power was probably her main source of hope in these moments. And this could explain, at least in part, why she seemingly became radicalized in these

14:29beliefs later on. Unfortunately, marriage didn't change Williams' ways. Over the next few months, while Laurie was pregnant, she called the police on William multiple times. She accused him of hitting her, pushing her and keeping the phone away from her so that she couldn't call 911. It seems like Laurie pressed charges at least once, but the case was eventually dismissed. If Laurie's due date rapidly approaching, she decided to take matters into her own hands. By April 1996, she separated from William. That same month, 22-year-old Laurie gave birth to their son, Colby. William made an attempt to reconcile and promise to convert to Mormonism, but Laurie wasn't having it. By the end of 1996, she officially filed for her second divorce and had soul custody over their son. Thankfully, Laurie's family was there to support her emotionally through it all, but she was still on her own financially.

15:31For the next eight years, she and Colby moved around to different parts of Texas, while Laurie struggled to find work. By 2001, 27-year-old Laurie and five-year-old Colby had ended up in the aptly named town of Driftwood, where Laurie got a job at a hair salon. And while she was working, she met a 43-year-old business analyst named Joe Ryan. Just like with her past relationships, she quickly fell in love, and it moved fast. They got married in less than a year. Joe had agreed to convert to LDS, though it seems like he didn't follow through. It also seems like Laurie's family didn't take his promise seriously, because they didn't attend this wedding either. It didn't seem to bother Laurie, though. She was smitten with Joe. He provided for her and Colby. He even built an in-home hair salon so Laurie could work for herself. Their new life appeared to be going well, and in September 2002, they had a daughter named

16:33Tiley. But soon enough, things turned disastrous. Joe had anger issues that surfaced shortly after Tiley was born. His rage was mostly directed at his stepson, Colby. If Colby ever did something small that annoyed him, like smacking his lips while eating, Joe apparently flew into a rage. He often hit Colby, or beating with a leather belt. But Colby wasn't Joe's only target. One day after something set him off, Joe reportedly grabbed a baseball bat and demolished Laurie's in-home salon. After that, Laurie was terrified of her husband, but she didn't know how to protect herself or her children. The only escape she could think of was religion. Her father's lessons used to transport her out of her unhappy home life and into a world of wisdom and passion. And while her father might not have been there for her anymore, the Mormon church still was.

17:34It was the only place Laurie found peace. She started bringing Colby entirely there whenever she could, and when they were in the church, Laurie spent her time obsessively reading Scripture. Somewhere in those pages, she received a message, and it wouldn't be long before she twisted it beyond recognition. Some mysteries have haunted us for centuries. Others are unfolding right now. This is how it is a modern airliner with 239 people on board disappear from the sky without a trace. This is History's greatest mysteries. A History Channel original podcast brought to you by Rewind Studios. Adapted from the hit TV show, every episode dives into one of the world's greatest enigmas, the vanishings, the myths, the lost relics, and the unexplained. With contributions from top historians, authors, scientists, and researchers, we separate fact

18:39from folklore and evidence from rumor, from unsolved crimes to buried treasure, to the deaths and disappearances of famous figures. These are the stories we think we know, but dig beneath the legend and the truth gets far stranger. Follow History's greatest mysteries available now wherever you listen to podcasts. In the fall of 2002, 29-year-old Laurie Valow was suffering through her third marriage to a man named Joe Ryan. To escape his emotional and physical abuse, she leaned on her devout Mormon faith. At first, this took the form of frequent church visits and reading scripture, but soon Laurie found a more unconventional way to express her beliefs. One day, she emptied one of the rooms in her house and filled it with mirrors. When she wasn't studying scripture, she played religious music and danced naked, surrounded by her reflections.

19:39This was not a Mormon tradition, but it helped her feel closer to God, and it was the only way to withstand the misery surrounding her. But the more Laurie sought refuge in her religion, the deeper she dove into its fringes. She didn't just want to reflect God's light, she wanted to be the light. These believe in modern-day prophets. The church officially acknowledges people who were able to receive revelations from God and his angels. But Laurie took that idea a step further. She believed certain people could also communicate with human spirits, those that existed beyond the veil. A mysterious state of being people enter into after they die. This was not something Mormons believed prophets could do, but Laurie didn't care. She believed she was one of those chosen few, and she wanted to harness her inner power. Throughout my career, I have seen many individuals turn to religion for coping during hard times

20:42when they feel a loss of control. And this is especially true of incarcerated populations or people experiencing addiction. They're searching for comfort, meaning, purpose, and freedom from their fear or forgiveness of their guilt. And religion allows them to find community, improve their own self-concept, and it gives them hope. With Laurie, it seems like the only time she felt attention, validation, or belonging was when she focused on her religion. This was seemingly the only individualized attention she had with her father, who was a central figure in her life. So it would make sense why she would lean on her religion now. However, what you're describing is unconventional. The room with the mirrors, the dancing, and this need to harness her inner power within the context of everything else that you described is alarming. It's as if she's feeling that loss of power and she's overcompensating, but also she needs admiration. I mean, that's pretty apparent in the quick marriages that she has.

21:43And all of these behaviors that she's doing could be a form of her self-admiring to make up for that. Laurie's faith may have helped her cope with her day-to-day life, but it manifested in ways that were certainly unconventional. We don't know if she believed she was actually speaking to the dead, but she did think someone who'd passed on had come back to her. Laurie was convinced that her daughter, Tiley, was the reincarnation of her oldest sister, Stacey. She'd passed away a few years earlier in 1998 from diabetes complications. Ultimately, it was a harmless belief, but it wasn't long before Laurie's attitude toward death became much more dangerous. Around 2004, when her son Colby was just eight years old, he went to Laurie with some devastating news. Apparently, Joe hadn't just been hitting Colby, he'd also been sexually abusing him. Laurie was stunned. All she could think was that she wanted to murder Joe.

22:45When she didn't keep those feelings a secret, Laurie went to church and told her bishop about the urge she felt to kill her husband. But instead of being ashamed of it, she tried to justify it. Laurie brought up a story from the Book of Mormon about a prophet named Nephi who killed another man in order to protect all righteousness on earth. Typically when someone undergoes a significant amount of trauma or ongoing abuse, we'll either see an increase or a decrease in religious beliefs. People either turn to their faith like I discussed before, for hope, meaning or purpose, and others begin questioning their faith. Laurie leaned into her faith, and arguably a little too much because she's exhibiting fringe beliefs. So is this evidence that Laurie is experiencing delusions? Well, it's possible. A delusion is a fixed belief that cannot be changed even when presented with evidence to the contrary. Laurie has been experiencing a very abusive environment according to her. And we know that stress, social isolation, and exposure to trauma can significantly influence

23:49the development and manifestation of delusions. So this could explain the altered thought content. It's also not unusual for someone experiencing delusions to rationalize their beliefs, and they tend to lack self-awareness that their belief is irrational. And that appears to be the case here. I mean, she's expressing homicidal ideation with intent as if it's justified. If this was said to me as a mandated reporter in California, I would legally be required to get law enforcement involved and notify her husband. Religion aside, how might Laurie's feelings of maternal protectiveness and desperation have fed into her literal murderous rage? I mean, it could have, especially if she truly was a survivor of sexual abuse herself, I can understand why people would question this though, because her son has been reportedly physically abused by Joe throughout her marriage, and it doesn't seem that she reacted like this during these experiences. But we also have to remember that according to Laurie,

24:50she was also being physically abused. And every relationship, again, according to Laurie that she has had, has been physically abusive. So to her, she may have felt that this was normal or expected, even acceptable, as long as they were provided for. But it could also be true that she had been experiencing intrusive thoughts of harming her husband for a while, and this admission from Colby in addition to her increased fixation on her religion, and maybe even desperation to get out of her marriage was what led her to verbalizing them like this. Remember, she's also been isolated from others, at least according to her. There's no adult providing any sort of reality testing for her to help her recognize how radical her beliefs have become, at least not until now when she speaks with her bishop. Laurie's bishop did put a stop to her murderous thoughts. He helped her realize she had two options. She could either kill Joe and ruin her children's lives, or she could leave him behind and put

25:52all her energy into her faith. Laurie chose the latter. By August 2004, the 31-year-old had divorced Joe and moved in with her parents, who'd relocated to nearby San Antonio, Texas. As part of the divorce agreement, Laurie and Joe shared custody of Tiley, although it seems like little Tiley spent most of her time with Laurie. The split with Joe became an empowering part of Laurie's story. She talked a lot at church and in Bible study groups about how God saved her from going down a self-destructive path. But instead of being humbled, Laurie's ego had only gotten bigger. On this time, she started to claim that the angel Moroni was visiting her. Moroni is a key figure in LDS scripture. He's known for helping the original prophet Joseph Smith found the Mormon church. We don't know what Moroni was supposedly saying to Laurie, but by associating with him, she was putting herself on the highest pedestal of her faith.

26:53So let's recap to understand how Laurie got to this point. From a young age, she was experiencing parental neglect, alleged sexual abuse by her brother, and then intimate partner violence with three different husbands. We talked about how her childhood experiences can negatively impact her sense of self-worth and value as well as her relationships with others. And specifically, she has a pattern so far of unhealthy and unstable relationships, not just romantically, but with her friends and her family as well. And frequent interpersonal conflict could be a sign of a personality disorder. So when Laurie was feeling powerless and devalued in her relationships, it made sense for her to fixate on her religion because like we talked about historically, it was effective and obtaining praise and admiration from her family, her church, maybe even her community. And it was a form of support for her. And now that she's divorced and has reestablished her relationship with her family, she also knows that the people within her church are more likely to believe these assertions about

27:54being chosen or special and that's going to reinforce those beliefs within herself. I'm curious in general, what kind of psychological and personality traits are associated with quote unquote, God complex or megalomania? Yeah, so whenever I'm evaluating someone who presents with an inflated sense of self-importance or exhibits that God complex or that megalomania, I flag it as an indication of grandiosity. The next step is to determine if it's grandiose delusions or if it's grandiose fantasies. Grandios delusions are often associated with severe mood disorders such as bipolar disorder or psychotic disorders, whereas grandiose fantasies are a core feature of narcissistic personality disorder. And the latter is especially true if they are also willing to exploit others for personal gain and have a chronic need for admiration. Despite everything Laurie had been through so far, she was still open to romance.

28:54And when a new man walked into Laurie's hair salon in 2005, she fell in love once again. His name was Charles Valo. Charles was a wealthy financial planner. He had two sons from a previous marriage, both around the same age as Laurie's nine-year-old son. Unlike her past partners, Charles was sweet and gentle. And he was willing to convert to Mormonism. Just a few months after meeting in February 2006, 33-year-old Laurie and 50-year-old Charles got married in Vegas. This was now her fourth marriage. Her family didn't attend this wedding either because they hadn't met Charles by the time it happened. But when they did get to spend time with Charles, they apparently thought he was her best husband yet. Like you said, this is her fourth marriage and at such a young age. Of course, we need to consider her religious beliefs playing a role here. But it is also worth noting, at least at this point in the story, that two traits of

29:56psychopathy include a parasitic lifestyle, which is using or exploiting others for financial gain and having many short-term marital relationships. The latter is more frequently found in female psychopaths, as they also tend to show more histrionic traits that are used in manipulative ways. Well the happiness she'd found with him made Laurie rethink her past relationships, especially when it came to her kids. At some point, Laurie started to believe that her last husband, Joe, was sexually abusing their daughter, Tiley, just like she believed he'd done to Colby. In August 2006, a few months after her wedding to Charles, she reported Joe to the local sheriff's department. Joe was arrested, and while the investigation unfolded, both children started going to court appointed therapy. Colby's counselors seemed to believe his story, but Tiley's were suspicious of Laurie. Apparently they overheard Laurie coaching her daughter to say certain things, like what

30:58exactly Joe had done to her. One counselor even heard Laurie say, quote, death would be better than giving Tiley to her father, even for a visit. We don't know if Laurie was referring to Tiley's death or her own, either way the counselor was gravely concerned. And with good reason. So let's talk about court-appointed therapy, especially out of family court. And the reason for that's got to vary on the situation. The most common reason a court would order therapy out of family court is due to child custody or parental fitness concerns. And given that there are allegations of abuse, the court is likely ordering therapy to assess the impact of that alleged abuse and also begin treating any associated trauma. They're also likely assessing for parental fitness due to the concerns you just described regarding child safety, not just with the alleged abuse but with Laurie's behavior. Child coaching is unfortunately very common when it comes to family court matters and it's

32:00deeply concerning because it's coercive and it's manipulative. And being put in the middle like this can cause a great deal of emotional distress for a child as well as parental alienation and fear of failure. It's also giving Tiley this belief, this false belief that she's been abused and that could create some real potential issues for her later on. But having a court appointed therapist, one who's completely objective and not hired by a parent with a personal agenda is so important. They are experienced in recognizing parental manipulation, which is vital to assessing for these risks and ensuring the child's well-being, especially when there is concern for abuse or even crimes like false reporting. This also though raises concerns about Laurie's honesty. She's willing to have her child lie about abuse like that than what else has she been lying about? What else has she made her children do for her? She knows that as children, they're unconditional and they're love for her and they're loyalty

33:03to her. So has this happened with previous husbands as well? And it certainly makes me wonder if there's a pattern of deception. Well the counselors were right to be concerned for Laurie's mental health and her children's safety. But Laurie wasn't the one on trial. Joe was. And ultimately it was up to a jury to decide the outcome. When the trial ended in July 2007, they found Joe not guilty of sexually abusing Colby and Tiley. The verdict sent Laurie into a full-on spiral. The sense of control she'd been gaining slipped through her fingers in an instant. She was ready to take extreme measures just to get it back. In July 2007, Laurie Valos ex-husband Joe Ryan was found not guilty of sexually abusing

34:04her 11-year-old son Colby and their four-year-old daughter, Tiley. Laurie was devastated at the outcome. She wanted Joe out of their lives for good. But now he would still be around, allowed to have supervised visits with Tiley. So she called someone unexpected for help, her older brother, Alex. Laurie and Alex had moved on from their troubled past. In fact by this point, Laurie and her brother were on friendly terms. Let's discuss that. So let's say that Alex did abuse Laurie, but she alleged did occur. If he cycled between periods of being abusive with periods of showing kindness or affection, especially when he was the adult in charge, this could create a trauma bond between them. And a trauma bond is an unhealthy emotional attachment that develops between a victim and their abuser. Siblings can be susceptible to this, especially if they do not have a choice, but to find a way

35:06to cope with living with their abusive sibling until they're old enough to move away. So whether or not Alex did sexually abuse Laurie, they both did experience a difficult childhood and at the very least they may have bonded over their shared trauma, which is different from a trauma bond, but still creates an attachment. So either way, an unhealthy codependency can occur from either of those things. So this could explain why they were able to move past a difficult relationship and those difficult experiences and establish a new strong connection that is unusual or unusually loyal in ways that are inappropriate or as we will learn criminal. One thing is absolutely for sure, Laurie and her brother Alex had come a long way since they were kids and he was prepared to do anything for his little sister. In August 2007, a month after the trial ended, Joe had a scheduled visit with Tiley in San Antonio.

36:06Laurie told Alex where they would be and Alex showed up unannounced. When he spotted Joe, he ran toward him, pulled out a stun gun and tased him. Alex was charged with aggravated assault and spent three months in jail. It's not clear if Laurie knew what Alex had planned the day he attacked Joe, but she did tell Alex where he'd be and when Alex was released from jail, he and Laurie got even closer. Alex was a devout Mormon as well and it wasn't long before he was Laurie's right hand man in her constant quest for spiritual ascension. She was eager for a partner. Laurie's newest husband, 51-year-old Charles Vallow, had converted to Mormonism for her, but the mainstream beliefs that Charles adopted weren't enough to satisfy her. She felt like her husband's spirituality didn't measure up to hers. Even so, their relationship seemed to be in good shape. In 2012, five years after Laurie and Joe's court battle, she and Charles adopted his

37:10seven-week-old nephew, JJ. JJ's parents were heavy drug users and couldn't take care of him, so Laurie and Charles stepped up. For a while after that, life went on as usual. Then in 2017, the Vallow's moved to Chandler, Arizona for Charles's job and everything changed. 44-year-old Laurie was happy to relocate, mainly because Alex lived near Chandler. Now they would have more time to study together and develop their religious theories. Not to mention, Charles was a way on business a lot, which meant Laurie and Alex's spiraling beliefs went completely unchecked. They were delving more into Doomsday prepping, known as prepping, for short. It's the practice of gathering supplies to survive the end of days. By the time Laurie moved to Arizona, it had recently started the game popularity as a Mormon subculture. According to Christopher James Blighth, an assistant professor at Brigham Young University,

38:12there's a thin line between the Mormon Church's official stance on the end of days and more marginal beliefs like prepping. While church leaders and mainstream followers do believe the world is approaching the end times, possibly within our lifetimes, preppers think it's going to happen imminently. I need to talk about some similarities here that Laurie has with Charles Manson. So Charles also predicted the end of times, and there has been debate regarding whether or not he even truly believed that, or if it was simply a tactic of control, and of course both, it could be both. But I can see how like Manson, that it could be difficult for evaluators to discern genuine psychiatric symptoms from manipulation when it comes to Laurie. And let me explain why. So her brother Alex attacks her ex-husband. Whether she explicitly told Alex to do that or not, the fact is she told him where he would be and when, and he knew of the discord between Laurie and her ex-husband, as well

39:15as the allegations of abuse. And this makes me suspicious that she may have psychologically manipulated him, which is similar to Charles Manson. Charles never killed anyone, but he manipulated others too. And after the attack on her ex-husband, it's possible that Alex has now proven his loyalty and his devotion to Laurie. And that is why their attachment, their bond, has strengthened. And then she moves to Arizona where she's closer to him. And then this is when her doomsday beliefs and her doomsday prepping begin. She's doing this with Alex and not anyone else. So could this be because she has control over him now and seeks to maintain it by radicalizing him? Is she praying on their trauma bond? Laurie has a lot of what appeared to be cluster B traits that are prominent, making it really hard to differentiate. Are these delusions? Or is this just her committing to an overvalued belief that gets her admiration, loyalty, and

40:18control? She seems to fixate on these fringe beliefs whenever there is interpersonal conflict of some kind. Delusions can exacerbate when there is ongoing trauma or abuse. Yes, but it's strange to me that she has something to gain from them. Attention, admiration, even money. Or that appears to be the case, I and my professional capacity will always assess for malingering or a pattern of exaggerating psychiatric symptoms. Well, Laurie and Alex's beliefs were certainly unconventional, but their brand of prepping took things to an extreme. They started idolizing people who claimed to be Mormon prophets, but had not been recognized by the church. One such person was a novelist named Chad Debel. He was a member of the Mormon church and self-proclaimed visionary. Like Laurie and Alex, he was a prepper who had written multiple books about the end times. Chad's books were based on two near-death experiences.

41:21The first one occurred when he was a senior in high school, cliff diving into some water with his friends in Utah. At one point, Chad miscalculated his jump and landed on a rock just beneath the surface. He felt a searing pain, then saw a bright, flashing light that he believed was a glimpse into another dimension. The light soothed his pain until his friends rescued him from the water. He didn't suffer any serious injuries. The second experience was similar. This time, Chad was 25 on a family trip in San Diego. He was swimming in the ocean when a huge wave pummeled him. Just like before, he saw the bright light and felt soothed until the waves spit him out. He ended up with some major cuts and bruises and had to go to the hospital, but otherwise he was fine. Now as a 49-year-old, Chad believed those experiences had blessed him with interdimensional wisdom. He thought he'd been given the ability to receive messages from beyond the veil.

42:21And one of those messages was about the end of the world. Apparently, God had chosen 144,000 people to survive the apocalypse and witness the second coming of Christ. Chad didn't just receive messages, though. He also said he had visions about what the apocalypse would be like. He shared those visions in his novels, which made his books very popular in the prepping community. Laurie was one of his many devoted fans. She felt like Chad's near-death experiences gave him strength, just like her abusive relationships had done for her. And shortly after moving to Arizona, she got the chance to meet him in person. It started when Laurie befriended a 47-year-old woman named Melanie Gibb at church, the two of them bonded over their beliefs about the second coming. Laurie mentioned Chad's books, and Melanie told her that she was friends with him. She even offered to introduce them. Laurie was thrilled. But before she could take Melanie up on her invitation, she had to deal with some shocking

43:27news. In March 2018, a few months after the vallows moved to Arizona, Laurie's ex-husband, Joe Ryan, had a heart attack and died. Laurie was listed as Joe's next-of-kin. Their divorce settlement had required Joe to name Laurie as the beneficiary of his six figure life insurance policy. Laurie apparently couldn't wait to cash out, and she didn't care who knew it. About a week after she went to Joe's apartment, Laurie was hanging out with her sister-in-law. She gleefully told her about the money she was expecting. And when she saw the concerned look on her sister-in-law's face, she said, quote, Joe was evil, and he needed to die. I've all heard or read a comment from someone expressing a similar sentiment toward someone accused of abuse or worse. And I evaluate people who have been charged with all kinds of violent offenses. And I hear and see comments like this all the time, especially from families of the victim.

44:32I mean, grief can cause all kinds of reactions. But at this point in the story, I think it's clear that this goes beyond a simple expression of anger or resentment. I mean, first there was that previous attack on her ex-husband, which may or may not have been orchestrated by her. And she had seemingly no emotion over. And now she's expressing this in front of her current sister-in-law. So she's lacking the awareness or simply the consideration regarding how this would look or make her sister-in-law feel. Because she's currently married to her sister-in-law's brother. So this behavior is, it just presents as callous, greedy and even just lacking empathy. And when you combine that with that parasitic lifestyle that we talked about earlier, grandiose fantasies, histrionic traits and those short-term marital relationships, especially when there's money, she's exhibiting more and more traits of psychopathy, which may surprise some people. Since it's primarily discussed in cases involving men and serial killers, but we'll dive more

45:35into that in episode two. Well, if Laurie experienced any sadness in the wake of her ex-husband's death, well, she definitely didn't show it. Following Joe's passing, all she cared about was meeting Chad Debel. In October 2018, seven months after Joe died, Laurie and her friend Melanie Gibbs drove to Utah for a Doomsday Prepper conference. Chad gave a speech and hosted a book signing afterward. Laurie joined the line of people eagerly seeking his autograph. And she approached the table, Chad laid eyes on her and was speechless. They were inseparable for the rest of the two-day conference, even though they were both married, they exchanged phone numbers before leaving. Less than a day later, Chad sent Laurie some stunning news. Apparently, angels had told him that he and Laurie had been married multiple times in past lives. Most importantly, Chad reassured Laurie that both of them were among the 144,000 chosen

46:39to witness the second coming. According to him, it was destiny for them to be together. But Chad wasn't just any prepper. He wasn't even just one of the chosen. He believed he had the power to determine who else was. Over time, Chad and Laurie would lure each other deeper into this twisted fantasy. For long, they got sick of waiting for the apocalypse and decided to unleash it themselves. Thanks for listening to this episode of Crime House 24-7. Be sure to check out our second episode on Laurie Valodebelle dropping later today. And to enhance your listening experience, join Crime House Plus and get every episode of Crime House 24-7 completely ad-free. Along with early ad-free access to all Crime House shows, plus monthly bonus episodes. To join, go to CrimeHousePlus.com. Or if you listen on Apple podcasts, tap Try Free at the top of the Crime House 24-7 page.

47:56Crime has impacted both of our families, teaching us how the last conversations, the mis-bread flags can change everything. On the final hours, we examine the moments before a disappearance, and the questions that never got answered. The podcast that puts the moments before a disappearance under a microscope. Listen to and follow the final hours available now wherever you get your podcasts. Hi listeners, it's Vanessa. Are you the type to fall down an internet rabbit hole and not come up for hours? You'll love Crimes of Reddit, a new Crime House original with Sabrina, Deanna, Roge, and Alexis Linklenter. Every week, One Host brings real true crime stories from Reddit, while the other reacts completely blind. No prep, no spoilers, then they swab. It's the feeling of sending your group chat a Reddit 2AM that starts with you have to see this. Except Sabrina and Alexis are in the chat with you. Follow Crimes of Reddit on Apple podcasts and Spotify, or subscribe at Crimes of Reddit pod on YouTube.