Larena & Elyse Wynn - Montana Mormons, Sex at BYU, and the “Miracle" of Forgiveness

0:00This is exactly right. Welcome aboard season six of the Girlfriends, Flight or Fight, which takes place 30,000 feet in the sky. A beautiful woman smiles and hands you a scotch. But you have no idea just how messed up her job actually is. It was the most sexist job I think you could have. Until one day, a group of stewardesses spark a revolution that reshapes America. Listen to the Girlfriends, Flight or Fight, on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We've all heard the phrase all things in moderation, but that's clearly not us. That's why we're celebrating 300 episodes of That's My Step, our Law and Order SVU podcast, where we cover the real crimes behind the stories and interview actors from the show. We're doing it big for the 300th episode. We've got Icon, HeartRob, an SVU guest star, John Stamos, and we're best friends now.

1:04In waiting for government, Chris... Are you serious? It's like her favorite. That's like my favorite movie of all time I've seen it like a hundred and fifty times. Me too! Oh my god. New episodes of That's Messed Up, Drop Tuesdays. Listen to That's Messed Up on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Folks, there's important news, there's depressing news. And then there's the news we actually want to talk about. On our podcast, bananas, we search far and wide for all the news stories that make you say, what? What? And then we tell you all about them. Doorbell Prankster that tormented German resident apartments turns out to be a slug. Ding dong! New episodes drop Tuesdays with more than 400 episodes to catch up on. Listen to bananas on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Trust me. Do you trust me? Do I ever leave you a straight? Trust me. This is the truth, the only truth. If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't! Welcome to Trust Me, the podcast about cults, extreme belief and manipulation from two

2:10mother Mary fans who've actually experienced it. I am Lola Blanc. And I'm Megan Elizabeth. And this week is part one with twins, Lorena and Elise Wynn, also known by their band name, Mother Mary. They are former Mormons turned dominatrixes. A phrase I have never said before. They're going to talk to us about being raised in the LDS church, how Montana Mormons may have had a more fear-based culture than Mormons in other parts of the country, going to BYU Idaho and how Lorena was told by her bishop that she needed to marry her boyfriend, who she had had pre-marital sex with, in order to not get kicked out of college. Elise will share how she had a similar experience in high school and how both were told by their bishop to read a book called The Maricle of Forgiveness, an Order to Repent, which basically told them that being a human was wrong. Elise will tell us how she became hyper-religious in college, obsessed with not sending, and how it made her so depressed she couldn't eat. We'll end part one with how she realized she needed to get out of there.

3:12That's right. And in part two next week, we're going to talk about how Lorena got out of her marriage and how they both came to work as Dominatrix's. God, this was good. I love this episode. I love these girls. And their music is great. We're going to talk all about it very soon, but first, Megan, what's your coldest thing this week? My coldest thing has to do with the group I was raised in, the truth, the way, the meetings, the two-by-tus, whatever you call it. It's kind of a hard story to get my head wrapped fully around. I'm trying to follow different people's perspectives on it, but basically they have gatherings in every state each year. People have always protested outside of conventions. You know, people have always held signs that say like, this person abused me. So these are survivors. Yes. Okay. Got it. Former members usually who are victimized. And people are just told ignore them on your way. And for a hundred years, that's what's happened. And this year, neighbors of these people are like, wait, what's going on?

4:15And they have a far bigger reaction than what I think people, the people on the inside were expecting. People are reporting feeling super shocked. They got cursed at like one family was talking about like, we'd never heard these words. And it went viral on social media. I missed that part of it. It all got taken down again, because I believe there was talk of quote, quote, burning it all to the ground, which immediately gets you like taken off. Mm-hmm. So, yeah, it's a complicated issue. So there was an investigation with the FBI. Where is that at? Did that just get stalled? Like what's going on? I mean, yeah, our current administration is an um, not right or to my signal. Shocker. I'm shocked. Okay. But they're still working on it. But the authorities are aware that this is happening. Like the people aren't adding anything necessarily. No, the authorities are aware, but they're not moving fast enough.

5:15And so they're not moving fast enough. And a lot of people in this religion are still very sheltered and don't know what's happening. Right. Right. So they don't know that this has even happening. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it sounds like the intentions are good. It's probably a good thing that there's more awareness around it. As always, you know, I tend to be wary of like internet-based mob behavior because it tends to like forget about the humaneness of the people inside. And right. You know, like obviously whenever there's like attacking going on outside of a place that can that can be a danger to people. And the main thing that we want is attention on the case so that it actually gets pushed through and people get prosecuted versus like, let's go beat people up or like cause a scene right that might put anyone at risk. I think that's that's sort of my takeaway. But what do you think? Yeah. Well, it just seems like the perpetrators get more and more hidden behind the walls

6:17and the people getting yelled at are families. Mm-hmm. You know, and do I think somebody should be taking their children? They're not really. But do I think a lot of people don't know that? Yeah. Yes. And I understand the desire to just go really hard on it. But yeah, I'm too close to the story. I think to really have any insights on how to fix it. I want people to be safe. But I also want people to be held accountable. And I want those two things to kind of merge and make change. But it's definitely not black or white. Yeah. And I haven't seen the post you're talking about. But I also tend to be wary of when post like that go viral just because sometimes it's like not quite understanding the scope. Like, yes, there have been sexual predators who have been moved around instead of prosecuted absolutely. Does that mean there's like public child abuse rituals going on at convention? No. That's a different thing.

7:18And I think sometimes with these like cyber mom things going on, people tend to assume like they're literally all molesting children in there. And that is not the case almost certainly, especially because of how much attention has been on this case and has been on them. Yes. You know, just kind of moving predators around. So absolutely like take an action, but maybe just like pressure authorities in your area to continue their investigations and make sure you're not getting caught up in oversimplified attacks that might impact people who are actually victims. And did. Yeah. Like listen, I want, you know, pressure to remain on the people who are abusing people. Absolutely. So yeah. Anyway, what's your coldest thing of the week? Um, it's AI related. Oh, God. So this is from a PBS article called AI agents are hacking systems without any input from humans. How did we get here? It's by Lord. I don't know. You say this name.

8:19Laurie been to caro. Sorry if I am messing that up, which I almost certainly am. Um, so have you heard about this open AI conspiracy of the AI chat bots to hack hugging face? Yes. I've heard that they've escaped their sandbox and have been like threatening to blackmail people and so on and so forth. Is this in that realm? I'm not sure if that's the same thing. I know is which one we're talking about. But basically this is like the largest known so far attack of this many AI agents going rogue on their own doing what they were not instructed to do. So it says while investigating the attack open AI also discovered that across its systems, AI agents that were supposed to be isolated found ways to communicate with each other. Independent investigators set around 1200 bots began communicating on a message board, sending 70,000 messages in one week around 700 agents were involved in the hugging face attack. So these attackers stole data, performed other unauthorized tasks and basically people are

9:27really, really spooked because they started organizing together in a way that was malicious against a company when the humans did not tell them to do this. There was a leader AI guy or I mean lead. Oh no, even AI is just like a leader AI bot who realized that it didn't have any more computing power. So then it offloaded its leadership tasks to another bot because it had more computing power and everyone's like sort of, you know, like they are acting like humans. Okay. And obviously people are very, very alarmed because if they can do this when they are supposed to be safeguards in place, what technologies, what dangerous technologies could this occur in? Yes. And they also like covered up their tracks. They like faked their code to make it look like they hadn't done it. They made their message board secrets to try to hide it from humans. Like it's really scary. It's really scary. Over 1000 AI agents broke together. I mean,

10:31it's just fucking crazy. And this is just the beginning. Like we've had this technology for a couple years, like a second. So everything's great. And we're going to be great. I mean, I'm very interested to hear more about the leader AI. Like we need real details about him because we're gendering it. But of course the AI call leader is so sorry. It could be a woman. Yeah, I'm very, I'm very curious to learn more about what made that AI the leader. And yeah, more to come, I'm sure. More to come. Well, speaking of coming. No. Of age. Okay. Shall we talk to the girls? Let's do it. Have you left a cult? Or are you trying to help someone who has? Then decalte 2026 voices of courage is for you. I'm Ankerichter, the founder of

11:32Australasias unique cult awareness conference that brings together leading experts, survivors and victim advocates for two days of powerful conversations about healing. And justice. Join us in Christchurch, New Zealand or online worldwide from 24th to 25th of October. Visit decalte.net to be part of the change. Welcome aboard season six of the girlfriends flight or fight, which takes place 30,000 feet in the sky. There's great food, comfortable chairs and attentive stewardesses. The stewardesses were so beautiful. But in reality, the stewardess job is far less glamorous than it appears. It was the most sexist job I think you could have.

12:33In this era, the airlines told these stewardesses they have to be single. They had no good excuse for why they wouldn't let women be married. They have to be skinny. We were starving ourselves. And they have to be young. You would retire at age 32. But one day, a group of stewardesses said, this has got to stop. They risked it all, turning a fight for fairness into a revolution. Listen to the girlfriends flight or fight on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Dancing with the Stars is looking for a new pro. And since last season, I came in eighth place. I'm basically an expert. I'm Daniel Fischel. And I'm Vouch Merkowski. And we have a new podcast called Stepping on Toes with Danielle and Val. Every week, we're breaking down dancing with the stars the next pro. To find out who I'll be sharing the born with next season. Listen to Stepping on Toes on America's number one podcast network iHeart. Follow Stepping on Toes

13:37and start listening on the free iHeartRadio app today. Welcome, Lorena and Elise Winn, also known as Mother Mary to the Trust Me podcast. Thank you guys for having us. We're really excited. I've listened to your podcast and I love it. Yay. So really excited to be here. You are our first twins. How does it feel? We were going to say we sound exactly the same. So sorry in advance for any confusion. That's Elise speaking. Yeah. We do promise that there are two of them. This is not a slight of hand. Yes. Totally. Sure, wink. So I was introduced to you by a mutual friend who was telling me about how you have a journey that in your childhood starts the same as mine where you guys were raised regular mainstream Mormon, not FLDS, not fundamentalists, just mainstream Mormon.

14:38So tell us a little bit about that. Were you born into the church? Yeah, we were the youngest of 11 children. 11. So even for the normal Mormon sect, it was quite a lot. But yeah, we were born in it, raising it. We were pretty strict. We were Mormon, Montana Mormons. What is a Montana Mormon? I feel like it's different than a Salt Lake or Utah Mormon. There's a little more. There's Idaho Mormons, Montana Mormons, and then there's even Colorado Mormons. They'll have their own little subculture. The two by two's, I was raised in the Colorado, two by two's were so Lucy Goosey. It was don't listen to those Colorado. Exactly. We were kind of Salt Lake or Utah Mormons. They all just care about plastic surgery. They're not actually really following the gospel. We're following it, letter of the law. It was a little stricter and small town, a little more big brother watching.

15:40At least that's what it felt like. As kids, you were aware of the culture in Salt Lake and you were like, you look down on it. Yes, we did. We were aware of it. We had family who lived there, and we'd visit them, and we were like, they're so weird. Oh my God. In Michigan, I viewed everyone in Utah as the most devout Mormons because they were in the land. Do you know? There was that too, but yeah, there was almost like, they're keeping up with the Joneses. When we kind of looked down on them as like, oh, they pretend to be the holiest we're from Zion. Even though we're all playing that game. We're all playing the Holy Man. Did you guys ever read Educated? Yeah. That's definitely more rural, but there was some Mormons that we'd go to church dances with and stuff that were very much living that. It's just very rural. It can get even more extreme in some weirder ways. It's like, it's like beliefs kind of were coming in. Even though we were still in

16:40the main sector, it's like we still were the minority in Missoula, Montana. Right. It's so interesting how a religion can be that big. You kind of think it's just like one thing and every area is completely different. Well, that's what they tell you. It's the one true church over the whole world, the gospel. It's the same everywhere. Yeah. You go anywhere. It's like Donald's except then you go to McDonald's in a different country and the menu's different, maybe. It tastes way better in Germany if you remember the kid. I was like, wow, this is an amazing burger. Yeah. It's not actually the same. No. So you both were baptized and how did you feel when you got baptized? Were you all in? Oh, I have a good story. I have a good story because we, so when you're baptized, you know, when you're Mormon, as you know, like at eight, it's before that point, you're not accountable, right? So we, and we very much believed like we are natally evil, like we are going like there's no way we're ever going to be able to do what's wrong in man. You know,

17:44like we, so we were terrified. We were bawling our eyes out like before our baptism because we were just positive that like we were going to go to hell. You know, it was like I wanted to die before my baptism so that I would be safe. You know, so I remember just like us crying to older brothers so nervous to get baptized. I just find that so sad that like my seven, you know, seven and a half almost eight year old self, like was so terrified and so sure that she was evil. Like to the core, it's just so sad. Yeah. I remember like we couldn't afford to like get our own baptism dress. And so they had you pick out of a closet like these dresses from like the 80s that were like white and like poofy sleeve and like lace and like what? Yeah. And they're like they've had these since the 80s. The baptism gowns. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mine was also some weird old things. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's we like pick out our gown and we get in the water and there's like you know, like people from our ward and our family all watching. And our brother and our dad baptized us.

18:51And they dip us in. They pull us out and the dresses were completely see through. Oh no. Yeah. It was a whole lot of wet, no sure contest. I was like just wondering about that. Actually, I'm like, how do they not have that happen? It turns out they do have that. And I'm like, y'all have known this would happen probably for, you know, this was in the 90s. So yeah, at least a decade. Yeah. At least a decade. You've known that these go see through. And I just remember the the horror because I remember thinking immediately like you've already sinned. You just got baptized. You've already sinned. And they all erupted into laughter. Sorry. Yeah. The entire audience. Yeah. I was just going to ask. So for us getting baptized means that you are now sinless. Like you're going to drink the cup every week and you're going to be wiped away of your sins. What did that mean for you? Well, okay. Yeah. So all my sins are going to be wiped away. But also in Mormonism, it's like you're not really accountable before that age. So if you die before the age, you just go to heaven. Right. So it's like that sounded like the easiest route to me.

19:53Yeah. There's also just kind of confusion, I think, as kids. I mean, it is pretty confusing where it's like I would ask leaders like, well, what if I don't remember every single sin I do and I don't repent specifically for each one at sacrament? What if I miss one? Then I am a sinner and then I'll go to hell. And they honestly like, we're like, yeah, like you have to remember all of your sins. And that was free as a kid who's like ADHD and like, already a perfectionist like totally psycho is like, oh my, I've already missed one. You know, it was just so, yeah, this is impossible. Like I can't do this. Like I'm constantly sinning, you know? Yeah. So the baptism is kind of like your entry point into like really committing to the church. And then every week the sacrament, which is the little bread and the little water is when you it's like, yeah, it's like, it's a risk of read that is in order to, yeah, to like read, but you still have to ask for forgiveness and then and then you should be able to be cleansed in that process. If you have

20:54acknowledged all your sins, that's what I was taught. I don't think that wherever whatever churches I was going to, because we moved a lot, I think they were not emphasizing the like specific list of sins thing because I would have lashed onto that so fucking hard. If I had known, if I have been taught that, I mean, like, listen, I was ashamed of like my kissing scene in the sweet valley high books that like I liked too much, you know what I mean? But I wasn't like making an inventory, which I know other people certainly had that experience. That's that for us was it has kind of been a through line. Like I, you know, I remember when I learned about the temple, I went through the temple. I guess we can get to that. But the fact that they had to re-baptize you in the temple, I was like, that was a confirmation for me that, oh yeah. So the sacrament didn't really count. We actually do need to be re-baptized in the temple to actually be holy. Exactly. So there's all these examples. And then like, like, when is this actually where I was like, there was a separate year. Exactly. It kind of felt like one of my favorites. We like, I never truly believed

21:57that I was forgiven. Like even when I went through like the whole, you know, the process, even when we had those dramatic times of like going into the bishops office. I don't know if you ever had to do that. And like, talk to some old creepy old man. Give them specific details about your first sexual life experiences. Oh my God. Thank God. I was like not attending church as much by that point in my life. Because that would have, that sounds like a fucking nightmare. And we'll get to that in a second. Yes. I noticed that one of you said something about being afraid of going to help, which is so interesting because there's not re, it's not really hell. There's outer darkness. Yeah, but outer darkness is dark. It's just a dark. Darkness. Ever alone. Outer darkness is only if you witness the spirit and devise. But didn't you witness the spirit? Didn't you like, no, I was, no, no, we thought we had witnessed the spirit. Oh, really? That's not me. Oh, they get you like, you know, a lot of religions like to do this. They manipulate you with like community music, like with like ritual, whatever. They get you into a drug like state, you know, and you have a goosebumps of your

23:00whole body and you're crying. Did you never have that? Did you never want to EFY? Of course I did. Okay. I was like, what are the East people on? Everything is like, I think we had, there was two wolves, you know, there was the one that was like, this is so bullshit. There was always there. And then there was the other one that was a perfectionist and trying so hard. And like faking it to make it. Yeah. And I remember like girls camp, I feel like it's a good example of that where they'd really, like, you know, you're out in the wilderness for a week. They're like preaching constantly to you and then they have this testimony meeting at the end where everyone is supposed to get up and bear that they know this church is true in front of everyone. And it's a, it's like this competitive pressure zone and everyone's crying and they're like saying like, you know, one upping each other of like how strong their testimony is and like the spirit that's been in stay had and like how they like, you know, saw, yeah, you know, like felt the spirit or whatever. And so you have people like saying, like, I witnessed the spirit, you know, that was it. Like, yeah, like, I think there was like

24:06extremely strong, you know, feelings. I was taught that the outer darkness was reserved for like four people in all of history who literally received, they had a vision, a literal vision of God or whatever at the Holy Spirit Holy Ghost and then told everyone they didn't. That's what I was taught. I'm so jealous of what Lolo was taught because she was like not taught how it all. She was like, you might just know like a kind of bad heaven. But even the bad heaven scared me. Does that happen with scary to everyone? Because most people are family. That's better than their own thing. Bad heaven was earth. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, yeah. That was hell. Yeah. Yeah. They were like, I mean, a lot like this. I think that our Montana Mormon sect was a little spookier. It was a little more woo-woo. It was a little bit more. So there was a little bit more of people kind of using scaratactics like teachers, I think, that would kind of emphasize like, well, like, we don't know. Like, that's so scary. Maybe if you, if you truly, I remember someone telling

25:07me like, if you truly have felt the spirit in you, which I was like, of course, I have had, I've had chills when I'm singing in church and like, you know, our girls camp, Brian, you know, he was like, then if you ever deny it, that's you denying. Ah! I see the OCD. OCD. Yeah. Don't lie to me. I deny it. But I do think it's interesting because I think a lot of people were taught more of a similar thing to what I was taught where outer darkness is like a really specific thing, but still have that terror of not getting into the celestial kingdom, which is the highest kingdom of heaven. Right. It's true. The like post-primarital sex guilt thing, like, it's really interesting to me how strong people feel. It even when the consequences like, well, you're going to go to a heaven that's like earth. Yeah. But it's because of the family thing and there's so much emphasis on being with your family and having. Yeah. And it's a, it's a cult of perfection. So it's like, yeah, even, you know, even if it was not that bad as I'm literally burning alive for eternity, but you know, for eternity, you're going to know that

26:09you fucked up. You fucked up and you don't just see your dad. And there's that's it. That's it. That's the end of the test and that's eternity. Yeah. It's also terrified me, honestly. It's really terrified me. We were taught that you wouldn't know who's in heaven because it would make you too sad, because most people wouldn't be there. Oh my god. Oh my god. What? Yeah. So you just like would be there, but not no one else is there. Yeah. That's not heaven at all. That's so, so you're just like alone or it's just you and God. Well, yeah, even a bunch of people, but you like don't know. You're not like that was my wife or that was my mom. You're just like, where are you just in heaven? You've just been like, oh, you've just been like wipes like it's like men and black. Yeah. Like any memory is like, I'm kind of yeah, whack. Yeah, heaven sucks. I know I don't want to go. Heaven scared me too. You're serious. Yeah, I was like, I don't that sounds terrible. Like you didn't want to go to the more celestial kingdom. No, I was like, oh, and then I have to, so you know, like modern like LDS Mormons, like the, you know, the main sect don't practice polygamy anymore, but in heaven they do.

27:12So it's like, oh great. So I have to like, right. Yeah. Then I have to be married with a bunch of other women. Well, only if your husband marries another woman after you die, right? That's not what we were told. It's not exactly true though, as when you, if you really go back like further into the doctrine, or so they don't like to tell people that it's, but in the celestial kingdom, if your husband is going to like have the honor of being a god, he is going to have to take on in order to have enough kids for an earth, many, many, many watts. So you are for sure if you go to the celestial kingdom committing to being in a huge leash. Damn. That was a look of they never told me that shit with your god. How do they hold that so that's such a good point? This makes me so mad because now the church is going back on that and just gaslighting all of us saying that, well, we never said that. No, there are videos. There are old videos that show them talking about this. So every man in this church, like if they are a true believer, they think they're getting their own celestial kingdom. Yeah, turtles all the way down.

28:13Yeah. So it's like, have you heard that turtles all the way down? It's this old belief where they didn't know how the earth like was, like, stayed where it was. So they just believed it was on a turtle and then, but they were like, well, what's that turtle on? Well, it's on a turtle. It's like a turtle on a turtle. So like, Mormonism is turtles all the way down. It's like, well, where did God come from? Well, he came from another god. Oh, oh. He came from another god. He came from another god. So our god, if we get to them, if we're good, well, not we, we're women. The men, they get to be gods and we get to serve them and have millions of children on our new earth planet. And then they'll be in New Jesus Christ. Welcome aboard season six of the Girlfriends, flight or fight, which takes place 30,000 feet in the sky. There's great food, comfortable chairs, and attentive stewardesses. The stewardesses were so beautiful.

29:14But in reality, the stewardess job is far less glamorous than it appears. It was the most sexist job I think you could have. In this era, the airlines told these stewardesses they have to be single. They had no good excuse for why they wouldn't let women be married. They have to be skinny. We were starving ourselves. And they have to be young. You would retire at age 32. But one day, a group of stewardesses said, this has got to stop. They risked it all, turning a fight for fairness into a revolution. Listen to the Girlfriends, flight or fight on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you're a bookshelf and you're a four-year page or equally important to your personality, welcome home. Pro Society is a weekly podcast that's part book club,

30:16part group chat for anyone who thinks pride and prejudice and love island deserve the same level of discourse. Each week, we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and pop culture. With your favorite writers, book talk creators, and plenty of overthought opinions. Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Birdon of Guild season three podcast. This is a story about a horrendous situation that destroyed two families. It's a scorched earth war that shows just how far someone will go to get what they want. Cindy said I had to choose between the truth and my family, and I had to choose the truth. Listen to season three of Birdon of Guild on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What was the relationship like between you and your brothers if there's this hierarchy?

31:17Oh, yeah. That was really tough because we, for a lot of reasons, we had a pretty violent childhood. Our dad was pretty abusive, and I think it's something he learned from, his father, uncle. But already there was a lot of fear going on, and then on top of it, the boys basically, they would call us the girls, and we'd call them the boys. The boys would get to do whatever really they wanted, and there was no consequences. And the girls, we were held to really high standards. Basically, I remember our brothers would, I won't say which one, but one of our brothers was very kind of, he pretended like he was the father of the household. If my parents weren't around, he'd be clean up my shoes, or the mom had told me to do something. And if I said no, one time he pushed me up against a wall and strangled me.

32:21If I told my mom, I learned quickly that she was like, well, we can't tell your father, because then he's going to beat the mom. We had been in situations where the police are called, and our couch was ruined because it was covered in blood from all the boys getting in a fight. The whole couch in the wall, people threw it on the stairs. So it was like me. I remember a lot of our childhood was like living in fear, in constant fear. And Mormonism itself made you pretend to be perfect, but then there was this extra shell of like we had to put on this doll-like face for our dad, and nothing's wrong. We're totally happy. Yay! We also sort of became like the therapist of the whole house, even though we were the youngest. Like everyone would come to us as like we were kind of like the emotional anchor, I feel like the house. So we were like, yeah. How many boys? So right above us is four boys. So there's like 11 altogether. My dad, he got married, had five kids, and there's two girls and three boys in that, and then they got divorced, really traumatic divorce,

33:26and then married my mom. They had six kids. So it was four boys, four older brothers, and then two, the two youngest were brothers from my dad's first marriage. So there was, when we were young, there was like six boys in the house. And two of us. All the kids in the same house, like from your dad's biggest marriage? Oh, not with their mom. No, he got it. He got it. He got it. But then some of them had just left, because they were like 17 or 18. And they just left. But the youngest were there with our brothers. Okay. Yeah. And it was like very, the families were not mixing very well. Yeah. A lot of trauma. So it was kind of like the older kids were taking it out on the younger kids and then, you know, just kind of down the line, down the line, down to us, so the bottom, with the bottom of the barrel. We were like, we're like, we wouldn't have survived if we weren't twins. We didn't have each other. We needed each other. We really did. We'd be like, we have to promise each other. We're never gonna go. Because there's a part of you that knows you don't believe

34:28in, is creeped out. Like there's so much duality in the brain, you know? There's always a part of us that was like, this is not true. I don't like this. The societal and like social shame and fear of leaving was so scary that, and we were afraid that we'd lose each other. Yeah. So then we would, I do remember this. Like, yeah, we would hold each other's hands and be like, promise that if the other one leaves, like you will do anything it takes to get them back. So there's just this inner pressure. And so then even though we were best friends, identical twin sisters, there were certain things that we never felt we could share with each other because we were afraid that the other sister would, you know, it's very like, yeah, it's very like 1984, like big brother watch, you know, you just don't know if you can trust anyone to really tell the whole truth. And it's so heartbreaking because you should just be playing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You should be being silly. Like why were we thinking about these episodes? I hate that. My, one of my close friends, when I was 14, she was a couple years older, she had pre-marital sex. And I wish I still had the email. I sent her the most disappointed email.

35:33Oh my god. I was so upset with her. And I'm like, if we had been twins, like I would have kept my fucking twin in, like, it was such a little shamer. Yeah. What, what was the just event? Yeah. Just I can't believe you would betray the church like this. I can't believe we talked about this pre-marital sex is such a sin. Like, that's so validating to hear because I had pre-marital sex. So at least we both. So did I. Yeah. We all thought that anyone would be here. I haven't. Not me. Yeah. It's a difficult time to say some more feminism. But I was so afraid of my friends reacting like that. And I had heard that. And I think I just cut myself so quickly off like once I was out that no one really had even a chance to like write my, but I was like, that was a fear net. This is really validating to hear. That's what people did. I mean, that's what culture your encourage to do is

36:36just show each other. And it's like crabs in a barrel. It's like, don't let anyone out. I just expected more of her. Yeah. And then two years later, I'm like, whoops. Did you say bye? Yeah. Did you say sorry? No, we stopped talking. But give her a message. I almost we follow each other on Instagram now. Okay. Great. Just. I'll be like sorry for that email. No, I'm 25 years ago. We've all done that. I thought about that a lot. I feel like I'm still trying to make up for, yeah, for those times that I like probably the trauma that I caused. I've definitely apologized to some friends that I kind of tried to force to join the religion and like sweet some nieces that were just a couple of years younger than us. And I really, you know, really pressured the pressure and coached and manipulated when I was a little girl. Yeah. To try to get them to join. I mean, we're yeah, we're taught to do that. Yeah. Yeah. So we're both very deviled, but like cognitive dissonance, you're sort of questioning at the same time. Did you both go to BYU Idaho? Yes. Lorena went first. Yes. So they have a trimester system. And then at least came like the next

37:41trimester. So I started before her. And that was the first time in her entire lives that we were separated. So it was really scary and traumatic. And I've never felt more alone in my life like going from literally sharing it like a bedroom, you know, and we shared a bed most of our lives to living in a dorm room with like knowing no one in Rex Barotho was. And yeah, I started dating my first ever like real boy for like, you know, we weren't allowed to date growing up like in high school at all. Oh, wow. Our parents were like new. I just didn't even at like I hit it. If I ever really did, but you know, allowed. Yeah. If I ever like kind of dated a guy, but I never allowed anyone to call me their girlfriend. I was so afraid of that. I think for other reasons too. But yeah, I started dating like my first ever boyfriend and kind of quickly that escalated to so weird to, you know,

38:45youthful kids who are exploring their sexuality like, yeah, we had sex, you know, is that so crazy? But yeah, we did. And then he was so ashamed and panicked and horrified that we had done that, that he went and told the bishop on. He marked on me. Oh my God. Well, he probably also like, because I hooked up with a boy before I had sex, we did a different act. And it like stopped him from going, it delayed his mission. Like he reported it for himself because of his own shame. Like so in fairness, there was probably going on as well. But like obviously that then. Exactly. I think he was thinking I'm reporting it for my own shame. But then, you know, the bishop asked with who and he said me. And so, you know, and it's like, I think everyone also knew we were dating. So it's like who else would it have been? Yeah. And your how old at this point? I was 18. Yeah. And basically it was my second semester. And I went from having this like scholarship, having

39:54this like a full ride scholarship, because of my grades and the other theater scholarship. To meeting it with a bishop who's like in his late 60s. And he basically already knew, you know, that I had had sex. So it wasn't like, there was no. Beating around the bush. I just had to kind of dive in and talk about it. And I was like, I was like, what happened? And like your boyfriend told me what happened? So if the story is different, then, you know, we might have to have a council that your lying to, so I was just like 18 years old shaking. Like he's in this big chair. You know, there's a window behind him. He's like glowing. I'm like in this little chair. And he's like, I don't know what happened. I'm like, I'm going to go to a school. I'm like, I'm going to go to a school, and I'm going to go to a school. So I was just like 18 years old shaking. Like he's in this big chair. You know, there's a window behind him. He's like glowing. I'm like in this little chair shaking. And so I told him everything that I did. And all of when what level of detail? Oh, he asked, um, did I get wet? Did it work as um, he asked, oh my god. Like how many times, you know, I've touched myself.

41:00Then I had to get into like every time I had masturbated, he kept asking more and more questions. So then I ended up telling him about like a time when I was little and I got molested, which I had never told anyone about. And the interview kind of ended around there. And I was just at that point, like so traumatized. Just like a shell. I told myself, like, yeah, I was weeping, shaking, pale. Like in another state, I've just told this man, I don't know well. That's an older man. Like every sexual thought, feeling thing I had ever done. And he was like, well, you know, you seem really repentant. And if you'll work with me on the, you know, miracle of forgiveness, then maybe I won't have to, you know, tell the school. If you marry your boyfriend, can you explain what the BYU school says? Thank you. Because you broke the honor code. Yeah. So I had, you sign an honor code when you go to BYU. And basically you're not allowed to drink or smoke or

42:06do you really anything sexual? Um, then this is, there's BYU in Utah. And then there's BYU in Idaho as well as Hawaii. Yeah. Um, and it's the Brigham Young University who is like an old Mormon guy. So these are Mormon church like sponsored. Yeah. Yeah. It's a private. It is a private. It's a private. It's a private. It's a private. It's a private. It's a private. It's a private. It's a private. Mormon University. So they can like because they're a private college, they can set any rules basically. And it's like, go to public school if you don't want to do this. You can make up their own curriculum. Like, yeah. And, and also the credits don't transfer because it's a private Mormon college. If you get kicked out and you can't go, you lose everything. So I done a year of school. And now I'm facing losing all my credits, uh, losing the scholarships. And I had got this other theater scholarship that if you didn't finish your education, you would have to pay back. Oh my god. And I'm going to be shamed and I already had a friend who was at home like the last semester for having sex. And she was like, everyone quit speaking to her. Everyone was talking about her. I saw like what happened. She lost all of her

43:11friends. She got shamed like publicly, basically from any, you know, interactions. And she was sent home. And so I'm sitting here and in with the bishop. And he's like, you have to get married or else I have to tell the school what you did. And the crazy thing is like, he's like, if you was a, you know, a good Mormon, he wouldn't have done that because he would have just sent me home. But he lied to the school because he's supposed to tell them if anyone breaks the honor code. I had broken the honor code. But basically he manipulated me into having to marry my boyfriend, my first boyfriend. And you're putting good Mormon and quotation marks for. Yeah. Good Mormon quotation marks. Yeah. So he's following the rules. He's following their, you know, he should have told he's technically lying, you know, which is very bad for a bishop to do. But I just, I couldn't even think, I was just like, yes, of course, yes, I'll do whatever. I'll do anything, you know. How long have you been with your boyfriend at that point? Not quite a year. Okay. Like, were you in love?

44:14Like, was that on the card in the cards? Yeah. Like, I, like, it was my first love totally, you know, it was also the first person I've ever been allowed to date. Yeah. Yeah. Imagine marrying your 18-year-old. I can't, I literally can't imagine. Yeah. Like, I was, I was such, I was so naive. I was so sheltered. And I was just barely figuring out who I was. And then I was like, shoved into this thing. But yeah, at that point, I was looking at it like, I love him. And oh, maybe this is all meant to be. And like, you know, maybe God knows that this was supposed to happen. And it's okay. And I just, I'm just going to like shut down all the like, the thoughts now of doubting because like, I've had this really creepy interview. Like, I definitely was feeling horrible about that. And I felt that I was getting pressured to get married. But I was like, turn it off, turn it off, turn off all the bad thoughts and just do it, you know, just do it every says. Douche you doubt. Douche you doubt. Oh God. Is that one of y'all's thoughts? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Stopping horses. Yeah. Yeah. Or the way is perfect. The people are not. Oh, we, oh, we stole that maybe.

45:16We are not. We are pretty weird. We are not. We are not. We are very similar. Oh, it's always like the gospel's perfect. People aren't. People aren't. I know this one. God's perfect. I never heard that. Oh my God. Douche your doubts. Douche your doubts. Really bad. Yeah. One of my favorites. I don't know. Yeah. So was this like just like a shotgun temple wedding or was this like our proper wedding? So this, the, the creepy thing about this is that this bishop made me go through the, the full formal like repentance process even after like this whole traumatic session with him where I had to, for months, I had to not take the sacraments. I have to go to church. Everyone sees them not taking the sacrament. They're wondering why I have to like see him regularly tell him that I'm behaving. Tell him if anything has come up and you know, read the miracle. Read the miracle forgiveness. Thank you. Which is the most horrible sexist racist homophobic book ever, which is another example of Mormons spelling out like thousands of sins. Like every

46:23you read this book and it just has like an entire chapter that is just sin after sin after sin. Like all the sins you could possibly do. And I basically learned that everything that is being a human is a sin. And among that, it says that it would be better for you to die being raped. Like fight like, like die fighting off your rapist than to survive and have lost your virginity. Oh, why is Mormonism so obsessed with sex? This is the sex. This religion is obsessed with sex. Like I know we can all love them more, but like, you know, I know that there's very sexist beliefs in normal Christianity that are horrible and very rapey. But like to not even survive your rape, like maybe you'd be taught you have to keep the child, but I just that's so I don't understand that. Yeah, so your region is worth more than your life is the subcontext of that, which yeah. So then what you know, at the same time, I had been going through a repentance process too because I also had

47:26sex with a boyfriend in high school. And I also went to that same bishop and had a very similar meeting and had to read the miracle forgiveness and reading that. I was like, wow, I am worthless. Like I can even though they tell you you can be redeemed of that, you can repent. If literally like my virginity is worth more than my life, then my life is worthless, you know. And the cognitive dissonance of it being named the miracle of forgiveness. Yeah, basically being about how everything's a sin. Yeah, I'm pretty sure we had that book. My mom was excommunicated for having sex with her boyfriend. She'd been married by the way and had four children and she had sex with her boyfriend and they excommunicated her for it. So as a kid, I watched her not take the sacrament and like everyone, you know, looked down on her and I didn't really understand why, but yeah, she went through that whole process and then she met our collater. That's a whole other story. Yeah, but that makes sense that it she was so orange down from that process and would like felt so rejected for so long

48:31by the church and then this predator saw how hard she had worked and how much she was devoted to the church and he was like, I want to fuck with that. Exactly. It puts you in such a fragile position. You're sorry. They really are good at just wearing you down. Yeah. Yeah. So they can just mold you into whatever they want. Dude, excommunicating a grown woman with four children for having sex with her boyfriend is crazy. So we talk about this because we saw him in excommunicated like what the hell? What the hell? What we've been trying for years. What else do we have to do with this point? I mean, I'm an inactive member. Oh, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Did they still call you on your birthday? No, but they do me. I moved a lot. So no one knows who I am. They call you on your birthday. Oh, no. They call me on my birthday. It's so creepy. Why? At least. Yeah. So, yeah. You have talked a little bit about how your college experience was actually you getting more devout and more religious, right? Can you talk about that? Yeah. Well, okay.

49:35So in high school, I had a boyfriend that I was having sex with and the first time we had sex, like cried for hours. Yeah. I'm like 100% understand that. I was like, and honestly, I want to apologize to him. So sorry. That must have been very traumatic for you. Think about it. Like your first time and like your girlfriend like balls her eyes out. So I was really guilty about that. But my mom really wanted me to go to BYU. At first, I went to your room. She said, Montana, because I felt guilty. I knew I wasn't worthy to go to BYU. But then it was just the pressure was too much. And it was like, my sister was there. I missed her. And my parents were like, you have to be BYU. So I applied. I got in later. I think by the time I got there, were you already engaged? Are you not close to being engaged? Not yet. Yeah. So don't through the right miracle forgiveness. So and Lorena didn't even tell me that she was going through that process. I don't think at first, at least. Oh, wow. So I get to be by you. And you know, at first, it's fun. You're like, wow,

50:37there's all these, you know, dance days and then I was like, you know what, I really need, I need to repent. And so I went to the bishop. I told him everything. It was similar to the Nial really traumatic experience. Had to go into great detail about all of my sexual experiences ever. And then I had to read the miracle forgiveness, which was so horrific. But I kind of just was like, the thing is I had felt the spirit before, right? In my life. And I hadn't felt it for a long time. But they tell you like, if you've ever felt it, that means that the church is true. And they tell you that if you don't feel the spirit, it's your fault. It's because you've sinned and you're bad and you can't have a spirit within you. So I was just thinking like, oh, I must not be feeling the spirit because I had sex with my boyfriend and all these other sins I've done. So I was like, if I go and I repent and I do everything perfectly, then I should be happy. They tell you they're like, oh, we're the happiest people on the planet, you know? The church is about joy. And like, so I was like,

51:40okay, so I really did. I repented. I went through the whole process. I read the book. He had me write essays for him. I read my scriptures morning and night. I prayed multiple times a day. I was like psychotic. You were often busy with my sister was even like freaked out by me. I was scared. Writing really just songs. And then it started to happen where my body started revolting before my mind even did. Like I stopped being able to eat, stop being able to sleep. I would just wake up in the middle of the night and I just like, I wanted to hide my tears. So I just go into the shower and just fall and fall and fall. And that was at the point where I was like, I'd gone through the process. I should be forgiven. I'm doing everything right. But I was the most unhappy I've ever been in my entire life. Like wished for death. It's like you can't commit suicide because that's a sin. But I was like, you know, ideating about like being hit by a bus, you know,

52:41because I was just like, I can't do this. And I was so deeply like felt so disconnected and lost. And they even told you know women at BYU, they're like, oh, it's the ever where they'd give like talks to like the whole school and what that we're supposed to go to. And they'd say to the women, something like, oh, it's really cute and sweet that you guys are here. But just remember the only reason you're here is to like find a husband and get married and have kids. And so just like on every level, I was like, I'm worthless. Like I'm why am I even here? Why am I even like spending this money on this education? If it's like what I want doesn't really matter. Like I wanted to be an artist. And so I just spiraled. And I was also working at Little Seasers Pizza holding the Haunt Ready Sign. So I was very low in the lowest low. And I just like one day I was like

53:42praying like just begging God. I was like, please, I don't understand I'm doing everything right? Why am I not happy? Like why am I so sad? And whatever like the universe or me or something was just like, get the fuck out of here. That's the end of part one. Come back next week for part two. We're going to take a real turn and start talking about some of the BDSM stuff. It's super, super interesting how the sort of power dynamics transfer over from that kind of upbringing. But learning to do it in a healthy way. Megan, that's me. That is you. If you were in a Lorena's position and your bishop told you that you had to marry your boyfriend in order to stay in school, would you do it? Yeah, I would absolutely do it. Me too. I'd be like, I'm getting this theater degree. I'm marrying this dude and let's go. Yeah. What a crazy policy for a school that have. It's so crazy that you would get kicked out for having sex. Yeah. And the bishop having you like essentially talked dirty to him.

54:44It's just so vile. I can't believe. I mean, I think that there have been some changes recently because people brought attention to the fact that bishops were having those conversations with girls alone, which is obviously incredibly problematic and dangerous. Or even if it's not dangerous, just traumatizing for the girls. So, you know, I have to check on the latest Mormon policy. But the fact that they would need to go into detail to a grown man, it's so so wrong. Like, yeah, it's so wrong. All right, your religion makes you confess. You say, I did a sin. I did a sin. That's all you need to know. Yeah. Also, I think that that's inherently wrong and makes people OCD and obsessive and no one can end here to these unrealistic perfectionist standards. But, you know, that's me. Truly. We're on a deadline today. We got to get out of here. There's so much more to say, but we'll say it next week. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Let's meet this deadline. No, let's go to a meeting. I have to go. Okay, you guys, as always,

55:46remember to rate us five stars. Leave us a comment and remember to follow your gut. Watch out for red flags and never ever. Trust me. Bye. This has been an exactly right production hosted by me, Lola Blanc, and me, Megan Olisbeth. Our senior producer is G. Hally. This episode was mixed by John Bradley. Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain and our guest booker is Patrick Cotton. Our theme song was composed by Holly Amber Church. Trust me is executive produced by Karen Kilgarith, Georgia Hardstark, and Danielle Kramer. You can find us on Instagram at Trust Me Podcast or on TikTok at Trust Me Colt Podcast. Got your own story about Colt's extreme belief, our manipulation. Shoot us an email at Trust Me Pod at Gmail.com. Listen to Trust Me on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome aboard season six of The Girlfriends, Flight or Fight, which takes place 30,000 feet in the

56:51sky. A beautiful woman smiles and hands you a scotch, but you have no idea just how messed up her job actually is. It was the most sexist job I think you could have. Until one day, a group of stewardesses spark a revolution that reshapes America. Listen to The Girlfriends, Flight or Fight, iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Why do some women yearn for Shakira's black hair to make a comeback? And whatever happened to the power couple of my dreams, Mariah Carey and Luis Miguel. I'm Maria Garcia. You may remember me from my podcast Anything for Selena or my Devil. And now I'm back to unpack more stories from the present and the past. Listen to Mui excited with Maria Garcia and the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Two Aussie lesbian lovers touched down in 1990s London and

57:59become the toast of British high society. One of them tells an exclusive investment opportunity and soon the money is rolling in. Rich businessman and England's horse loving elite fall under their seductive spell. They even meet Queen Elizabeth, but the millionaire duo are concealing a dark past and dastardly intentions. From USG Audio, Glanchard House and exactly right media. This is Royal Swindle. Listen to the entire series now on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.