LEGENDS: How Jacques Villeneuve shook up F1

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The son of a motorsport legend, a racist since childhood,

Formula One was Jack Villeneuve's destiny.

Since I was five or six years old, I knew I would race cars and I never questioned it.

Deep down I knew that the ultimate point or goal where I would arrive would be F1

and 1DB World Champion. It was so fixed and clear in my mind.

It's a situation of you better become good and quickly,

because the pressure is there from the first moment and it could destroy you.

30 years ago, Jack arrived at his first Grand Prix with bold confidence.

He had a lot to prove, and he proved it immediately.

Full position and second place for Jack Villeneuve Formula One as a new star.

Villeneuve is taking Michael Schumacher.

Villeneuve comes ahead of the Ferrari.

I wasn't impressed or afraid of him, and he wasn't used to that.

And that's why in the battles I had with him, it didn't always go good for him.

As a rookie, he raced without fear, overtaking Michael Schumacher,

pushing his Williams teammate, Damon Hill, all the way to a final race title decider.

It was him or me.

They were hardly ever someone in the middle because we were the car to beat.

On the good weekend, I would finish first and Damon probably second.

Hello, everyone. This is F1 Beyond the Grid with me Tom Clarkson.

I was there at Silverstone on the day that Jack Villeneuve first drove a Formula One car.

I watched his debut season in 1996 in awe of this young Canadian,

the reigning Indycar champion who'd switched to race Grand Prix for Williams.

So it was a pleasure to sit down with Jack and look back on that year.

We talked about joining the team run by Sir Frank Williams and Patrick Head,

getting used to F1 cars, driving alongside Damon,

and how he and race engineer Jock Clear would come up with peculiar ideas

in the pursuit of performance.

1997 was the year Jack became World Champion,

but it all started in 1996.

JV, how are you? It's been eight years since you were last on the show.

Oh, that long.

Oh, wow. I'm doing great. It's fantastic.

You don't like it. You don't look a day older.

That is very kind to the head.

Now, I want to take you back to 1996.

This is one of our legends episodes.

And you'd come over from Indycar.

It was your first season in Formula One.

How clearly do you remember Year One in Formula One?

Most of it quite clearly.

It's always linked to moments, specific, specific moments that somehow remain

because they were strong or they were meaningful or they brought something

or took something away.

So memory is timeless and there's no passing of time merit could have been

yesterday, but it's what you remember.

And I think you remember everything.

It's what makes you brings it out of the little closet that it's in.

Well, I'm going to jog your memory throughout this.

But can we start by talking about the decision?

OK, 1995, you were dominating Indycar.

You won the Indy 500. You won the championship that year.

So why F1 for you?

Were you not tempted just to stay that side of the pond and dominate Indycar for a decade?

No, it's funny because you say the decision.

There was never a decision.

It was just logical.

It was a natural next step that when you're a racer or passionate racer

and you want to perform and you want to be the best, then you want to be

at the top of the ladder.

And F1 has always been the top of the ladder and that's it.

So why would you even question, mostly when it's with Williams,

a winning team, a team that you can work with, you can build on.

Since I was five or six years old, I knew I would race cars and I never questioned it.

I never spent any time trying to get there either because I knew it would come.

So I was just keeping ready for when the opportunity would happen.

Then I went to race in Japan instead of going to 3000, for example.

So you have to jump at what opportunity is there without questioning it too much.

Then went to the States.

That was in the road to F1, but deep down I knew that

the ultimate point or goal where I would arrive would be F1 and one day be World Champion.

It was so fixed and clear in my mind that there was never a moment of decision making.

That confidence is extraordinary.

Yeah.

Yes, and it can be of putting because if I had one of my kids,

or I see a youngster acting that way growing up, I think,

who does he think he is?

I mean, what's going on in his mind as if it was going to happen.

But when you're in the middle of it, you have to believe in yourself that much.

If you want it to happen, if you don't believe it won't happen.

Did you feel the weight of the veil of name coming into F1?

Obviously, obviously because it brought a lot of pressure from the first few laps I did in racing.

In every walk of life, in every career, there's always the newcomer.

And he's judged as if he didn't have any experience.

What the truth is, he spent the last four or five years maybe in the shadows,

but working his trade getting better until the day that he's the new youngster.

But when you come in with a name or with image, even before having done anything,

you're judged as if you had had those five years of preparation, which you haven't.

So it's a situation of you better become good and quickly

because the pressure is there from the first moment and it could destroy you.

And in a way, that helped me to become stronger.

So when did the conversations with Williams begin?

I guess there was always some talks in the background, which I wasn't private to.

But what made the big difference is winning the Indy 500?

Of 1990, yes.

Because that showed Frank Patrick, I guess Bernie,

and for a different reason that I could perform under pressure.

It's a big race, the biggest race in the world.

And F1 was needing that.

If you want to be a driver and F1, you need to be able to perform under pressure.

You mentioned Bernie's name.

Just how involved did Bernie get in the negotiation?

Bernie has always been about what is good for F1 image and so on.

So winning the Indy 500, you know, being my father's son as well,

who was a big name in F1,

that I guess that was something that was important for Bernie at the time.

And he was very actively positive as well, which was nice.

Did you speak to Bernie about it?

Did you get a sort of, hello son?

No, no, no, no, no.

That was happening with management and...

To Craig Pollock.

Yeah, exactly.

So it's more stuff I've discovered years later of everything that happened in the background.

And also, it's the first time that I got into a contract that I didn't know everything about it.

Because I went from a 10-page contract, which was IndyCar, even less.

I could read every word and figure out what was hidden and so on to a 70-page contract.

And I thought, okay, no, that's just way too much.

So from what I understand, it was important to perform in the first two or three races.

Okay.

You certainly did that, but I wasn't told so good that.

I was some pressure.

I don't know where I am.

But can I ask you now, what sort of preparation was IndyCar for Formula One?

Because, okay, you know, the Indy 500 is circulating at 220 miles an hour.

But the cars all back then were much bigger.

Was that good prep for a driver?

It was good prep because IndyCar in those days was like a fun in the sense that

you could develop whatever you wanted on the car.

Obviously, you would buy a car of rain art or Lola or your penski, which had their own car.

But you could actually develop, put new bits on the car.

It wasn't a one-make series.

So you could work a lot.

You could be clever.

But the work we were doing was moral fashion, still pen and paper, and really getting it out of your system.

What could you do to become faster?

What could you change on the car?

What would you need?

Which was getting out of F1, was getting away from F1, that way of working.

So for me, that was the best preparation ever.

Because when I got to F1, everything was fresh and you hadn't done a season of 3000 on the same tracks,

the same kind of people, the same mindset.

You know, I'd gone to Japan, which is colorful, it's very different.

So you learn tricks that you would have learned in Europe, a way of working.

Mostly because, well, my engineer in Japan did not speak English, for example.

So it really makes you figure out how do you work, how do you explain what you need.

And we manage.

Then you get to the States.

And once again, it was a very different way of working, of approaching the racing,

maybe a little bit more rough and tough, like sports in America can be.

And obviously within the 500, which is the biggest race in the world,

and the level of danger and risk that there was, really put you on the edge.

You knew that you were risking something.

When you were racing on the limit there, and you were going to go for a poll or a win.

And I think that was this level of intensity was very good preparation for F1.

You always struck me as someone who thrived on the danger.

Have I read that correctly?

I don't know if it's danger or pressure, but whenever there's a moment where you have to calculate

how far you can go pushing the risk.

Because a lot of people say, oh, but you're fearless.

No, it's not being fearless, because if you're fearless, you'll do a lot of stupid things.

I think it's more calculating how big is the danger and how on the edge you can be,

how you can survive on that edge, how can you control that edge,

where there's a risk of making a mistake, but there's also a big chance that you'll recover from that mistake.

That's the fine line that you have to get to without going beyond.

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One of my first jobs at Autosport was to go up to Silverstone in August 1995

because we've got this guy called Vilner of testing the Williams for the first time.

The FW17, my goodness, there was a circus.

You know, it was the traditional sort of Silverstone test,

but everybody was gathered outside the front of the Williams pick garage,

your car in particular.

Tell us about your first memories of getting in an F1 car.

How different was the experience to Indika?

Well, I was so tired because I had just flown it overnight the day before the test.

We had been racing in Michigan and had a suspension failure,

so luckily we felt it pitted during the race because a big crash there would have meant no test.

Were you nervous about the test?

No, not at all.

I was excited.

Did a lot rest on it?

Of course, it meant getting into a F1 or not.

Everything was happening on those two or three days of testing.

But it was exciting, not nervous.

It's not the same thing.

I knew that was my road.

That was the goal.

That's what I had to get.

And I would find a way to get it.

And that was it.

There was no doubt whatsoever.

I was taking it.

I was coming with a smile and fun.

Obviously, you're a little bit tense because the stakes are high.

But that makes it even more fun.

And normally, that's always allowed me to perform better when there was something big at stakes,

that it was all or nothing.

And that's what that test was.

So landed, made a seat fit, and then just tried to rest for the next day because it was brutal.

And what I remember is being in a tiny hotel.

It was not the F1 standard of today.

And even the catering was sandwiches.

And it's not what you get now.

And it was physical because the cornering speed was a little bit higher than IndyCar.

But the steering was lighter because of the power steering.

So there were other aspects that were actually easier.

What shocked me compared to the IndyCar is how the F1 car was a lot lighter.

It wasn't more powerful.

You didn't have a bigger acceleration.

So that wasn't a surprise is how light the car was and how quick it was to reacting.

So if you got in a slide, it would snap really quickly, instead of having momentum.

So that's where the big difference was.

What about the braking?

Everyone seems to talk about the braking.

Did you find that a big step?

Not really because everything's, oh, it's carbon brakes, it's difficult.

No, it's not the carbon brakes.

It's the fact that the car is light and you have a lot of downforce.

You can brake very late.

That's all.

That was because we did try some steel brakes at some point.

I don't remember if it was in that test or later on in the season.

And it didn't really make a difference.

It's just that the car is light and you can stop instantaneously.

So you just have to get used to that.

Your brain has to recalibrate.

That's all.

Damon Hill was at the test as well.

Was he any help?

Did he give you any advice?

I don't remember.

I don't remember talking much with him.

But also DC was down the last day, I think.

And from Anderson it was kind of a shootout.

And so he was under pressure, but he probably already had signed from a client.

So it was fake.

But what I remember is I was ahead of him all day until the last run he did on new tires end of the day.

And in 95, we still had to switch on the fuel pump on manually,

which was something we didn't have in Indica.

And on that last run, I forgot to switch it on.

So I never got to do that last run.

And maybe that's what helped me because he had done a quick lap time that I might not have beaten.

And that might have never known.

We better give him a break.

It was a good mistake to make.

So let's talk about that winter, 95, 96 now.

You did 9,000 kilometers of testing.

Can you just talk us through the journey you went on with the team,

with the car, how your relationship with Jock Clear,

your race engineer started to gel?

Well, Jock was quite junior as an engineer, which means he wasn't set in his ways.

And what I found out through the years, he was very open-minded.

And socially, very good to work with because he came from rugby, he was a rugby player.

So he understood also the psychology of the sportsman.

And sometimes it's not the numbers that make you go quick but being in the right bubble when the right mindset.

So that's why we had a very good rapport.

But we built it because I was very peculiar with my way of driving and what I was wanting from a car.

And quite hard-headed.

And I was pushing the team in some directions that they weren't used to,

because they had been working with Damon for a long time.

And our driving styles were a little bit different.

And there's a test we did in Emola where he did the opposite of what I was wanting just to see Jock.

And I think he asked Craig, is it OK if I did this?

And Craig was convinced that it would work out.

So he did it, I did two laps or three and came back and said,

no, what you did? You didn't do what I asked you there.

So from that moment on, then he understood that the feedback I was giving him was real.

That doesn't mean it was right.

But at least there was always room for imagining, OK, why does Jock want this?

Why is he trying to go in this direction?

And maybe my reasoning was wrong, the reasons were wrong.

But there was a pathway that helped them develop and figure out the things.

So that was really good, because that made him also very good at getting inside my head.

Right now they have meetings of 30 minutes.

OK, do your debrief say what you think?

That doesn't work. That's now, old information is there.

But you cannot always just get it out.

And what I would love was spend hours just sitting there with the engineer.

It was Jock and data.

And sometimes I there just come up.

You're sitting there and not thinking about it.

And that's when the idea comes up.

And you can imagine how the car is working, why it's doing this,

and why you will be able to drive it better this way.

And the engineer's job is to be able to ask the right questions,

to get the information inside your head that he knows is there.

But maybe you're not figuring it out.

And that takes time.

And we had built this very strong rapport with Jock,

where we're both able to communicate.

And oftentimes I would come up with ideas and he looked and he said,

is that one of your toilet ideas?

Like, you know, that you had in your weird moment of thinking.

And it's OK, let's try it.

And sometimes it would be crazy, but it would work out.

That made it a lot of fun.

But also you create a lot of trust in each other.

So if Jock said, yeah, don't worry.

This time that corner will be flooded.

OK, fine, then you know it's true.

You know, you're convinced.

And you believe you don't feel like you're alone in the car anymore.

And that's a big help.

For the same reason, in 97, I didn't want to test at the end of the year.

I wanted to focus on championship.

And there was a last test to do in Silverstone.

And that's before the cars went narrow in groove tires.

And he said, listen, you've never done turn one flat.

This is the last time you get a chance to do it.

And that's the only reason I went testing.

Oh, Jock, I always thought of you as a bit of a rebel.

But just while we're talking about just car setup,

is it true that you used to have a really short throttle travel?

Yes.

Very much.

How long was you?

I think 20 or 18 mil depending on the season at the toes.

So it was kind of on or off with the power.

No, no, it's your much.

I always give the comparison to a mouse or computer mouse.

If you have to move it a lot to get to where you want,

you'll overshoot.

You'll have to move too fast.

You'll have more preciseness when you just move a tiny little bit,

maybe, but you'll always overshoot.

But when it's a small movement,

you get there very quickly and precisely.

And it's the same thing with the pedal.

So you were feeding in, what was it back then?

800 horsepower through two centimeters of thrust.

Yes, but instead of movement, it was pressure.

When it's short, it's down to how much pressure you apply.

More than how much you move.

And you don't have to move your whole leg.

You just move your foot a little bit, so you have more control.

But, JV, in the wet.

No, that was okay.

Was it okay?

Yeah, but it was the same concept.

Then you just needed a good throttle trace.

That's all.

But it was never an issue.

And also, when you accroplained,

you were much quicker off the gas.

So it made you react a lot quicker.

The other thing we had differently is only had one paddle shift,

instead of two paddle shift.

And it was the same paddle to upshift and downshift.

So I would just push it to upshift and then pull it down to downshift.

And that allowed me to not remove my hand from the wheel to go grab it.

So you could actually shift while you were cornering at high G-force.

Or to rack quickly if you got a wheel spin.

Were you the only driver who had the same side going up and down?

Yeah, nobody went to that.

But we had a lot of little tricks like that that we kept thinking of.

Like flags on the pedals.

We were the first ones to put that to all the legs so they don't move.

Like I told Drugs, listen, I'm spending half my energy holding my leg.

Instead of driving.

So we put this and oh yeah, it helped.

And it also saved you from breaking your foot if you crash.

So there was a lot of little things or grips on the steering.

Adjustable front wings.

This is stuff I had brought from Indycar.

And also radio communication.

Jock would often at a start be like a spotter in two turn one.

Watching the TV and telling me where the traffic was.

In real time.

Yeah.

Yeah, real time.

So this is all a baggage I had brought from the States.

So how much of this was in place before your first race in Melbourne 96?

No, the shifting, the paddle that happened later.

But it was gradual.

But anything in the comfort and pedal flags and all that.

With 9,000 kilometers, you have time to figure it out.

And Williams was very quick at reacting, which was fantastic.

And that giving into all these ideas that I thought, okay, what is you on again?

Why is he annoying us with that thing?

But it turned out that it was a good reason for it.

I'd love to know what Patrick had.

Oh, it was fun.

You know, Patrick was always pushing to have very soft anti-roll bar in the rear.

But back then, I don't know if something was twisting.

He needed to stiffen the rear end.

So the car was more precise.

So for 97, they changed the numbers on the bar so that Patrick couldn't realize how stiff they were.

Oh, boy.

Patrick, if you're watching.

No.

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Melbourne 96, your first Grand Prix.

The new season began at a new venue for Formula One Albert Park in Melbourne and a new star.

24-year-old Chuck Villeneuve, the reigning Indicar champion, arrived in Formula One

and in his first qualifying session took pole position.

You become only the third driver in history to take pole position on your Formula One debut.

How much of a surprise was that or had you had enough clues during testing that you were right on the pace?

Damien was quicker, mostly on one lapers, even during testing.

I still had a lot to learn from him.

But testing in a race weekend are two different things.

I've hardly ever, ever been quicker than a teammate during winter testing.

Because you're not there to get the ultimate tenth, the ultimate lap.

You're there to set the car up to understand what's going on.

When you're on the edge, you're too close to that edge.

You go a little bit over over time.

You have to also adapt your driving and you don't test the car.

Your brain is not focused on feeling what the car is happening.

It's more focused on surviving.

Make sure you don't go off when you're on that last tenth for a second.

So it's bad.

When a driver does that in testing, it's normally not very efficient in developing a car.

What helped me in Melbourne was a new track for everyone.

It's not a track that Damien knew.

Because then once we got to Brazil and Argentina, I think it was a second ahead of me or close or quite a big gap on me,

which was a big shock.

Melbourne was helpful because it was a new track.

What about the starts then?

There were two starts.

I remember Martin Brundle had his spectacular crash going into turn three.

So we had two starts and you beat Damien away both times.

And you'd come from IndyCar, which was rolling starts.

Again, was that a surprise?

Yes.

Mostly the first start had a big gap on him as well, which was surprising.

But at the same time, I think having a short throttle helped.

Because back then you would have to ride the clutch a little bit, figure out where it was, and feed the throttle.

So I didn't need to move my foot a lot, just barely.

And that made it easy to feed the power and get going.

But yeah, it was surprising because that's where the big question mark.

We didn't do that much practice starts.

And then in the race, you start losing oil.

Damien takes the win.

Just how do you remember post-race, how you felt?

He was the talk of the town.

New boys come in and there's been really quick.

But equally, were you very disappointed?

Yes, because it was my race.

It was controlled.

And I raced also in the IndyCarway, which is you don't build a gap.

Because they'll be a safety car.

And there weren't any safety cars in F1 back then.

But I still hadn't adapted to that.

So in my mind, once you're in the lead, you just stay there.

You don't build a 5-10 second gap.

It's pointless.

So I was still in that kind of mindset.

But then, yeah, a little an oil tube was just put in the wrong spot and getting squished under the floor.

And at some point started leaking.

So I was told slow down.

I could see the red light in every right-hander corner, I think.

But I later found out that slowing down was not making a difference.

The engine was either going to blow or not.

So apparently I didn't actually need to slow down.

But I was still massaging the car.

And at that point, what I thought is it's better finishing second than blowing the engine.

Because the championship is a long championship.

And you need every point.

Okay.

Now, anyway, the other thing is it was Damon.

So it was okay.

What do you mean by that?

I got into his team.

It was his team.

He had been working in that team, developing the car working, sweating it off for so many years.

And I'd seen him lose his championships to Michael.

And in the way it was the two championships were taken away from him.

So I was feeling for that as well.

And he did deserve to win.

He did deserve to win the championship as well.

With all the effort he had put in.

And I was the new boy learning from him.

So I wasn't as disappointed as I probably should or could have been.

So the relationship with Damon was good all the way through.

Yeah, yeah.

We had our moments.

I think you'll remember one when I tried to steal this chicken.

And you got rid of that.

He has to open that.

But I was never playing a game with him.

He knew I was quick.

But I knew that he was very quick and he was a hard worker.

So I had so much to learn from him.

And that was great.

So I was viewing him more as a fast mentor.

And when Damon is given his marching orders and is told by Frank mid season

that he's not going to be retained.

How did that change the dynamic between you?

Did it.

I don't think so.

Damon was really focused on winning his championship.

And I was focused on delaying it for him.

Yeah.

Because there was still a small chance.

I still was wanting to try and win it.

I wasn't going to just give it to him.

But the points he got early in the season,

I just really had a hard time to come back.

And there's so many tracks where I just couldn't beat him.

Like Esterill.

We had tested their old winter.

And it was the end of the season.

And that's when I was actually very quick and qualifying.

I still, there was still some sparks that I just couldn't get.

But there's a few tracks I was better.

So it just depended.

It was a hit and miss on who would be the quickest.

Damon wins four of the opening five races.

And as you say, that sort of sets him up, doesn't it?

That buffer, he can then play with that points buffer

for the rest of the season.

Your first win comes at race four at the Nürburgring,

the European Grand Prix.

For sure, it feels great.

But you have to know that the championship

is the work of the whole season.

So this is one race.

It feels great.

But as of tomorrow, it will be far away

because we'll have to think about the next race.

But for sure, it's a great feeling after the start of the season

we had.

It's great to get one in.

You have won Michael Schumacher on your gearbox

for pretty much the whole race.

Obviously, Jack has done a fantastic race without mistakes.

And there was just no way for me to pass him

plus just the edge on the top speed.

And there was no way for me to pass him anywhere.

But we had a great race together, very close fighting.

And I'm very pleased to come second to finish the race.

You've already told us about how much you thrive on pressure.

That was the first win, yes.

But to do it in the manner you did, beating Schumacher,

did that give you extra satisfaction?

Oh, it was great.

And he was in my mirror as the whole race.

Yes.

Partly because I was still racing the Indy Carway,

which is don't build a gap.

Man, I'm getting frustrated.

I'll be on that.

Jack, what were you saying to Jack?

No, no, no.

I always enjoyed having communication with the engineer.

Like, the more the better.

You need to know what's happening.

I need to know what's happening with the others in the race.

That's how you can adapt.

And feel it.

And I always, I was controlling Michael there.

I was just keeping him in my mirror because that's what I was used to.

That's changed over the years, once I realized how you had to approach F1.

But that took a while to change.

Did Michael say anything to you on the podium at that point?

I don't have a memory of that.

Because it was a cracking race between the two of you.

It was a sort of typical Formula One race of high pressure chess game, really.

Yes, you didn't need, you didn't always need overtaking.

For a race to keep you on the edge of your seat.

And he was always ever that close.

That a tiny mistake from me would have given him the lead.

And then I wouldn't have overtaken him afterwards.

And it's always hard when you're the prey.

It's because you can only falter.

How did you and Michael rub along, generally?

We never rubbed along.

It's an odd one because we never actually really socialized it.

All the years I was in F1.

And he was my main competitor.

So that's really a strange one.

Because what?

The competition between you was too intense.

I'm not sure maybe because the Villeneuve name was still linked to Ferrari as well.

Maybe that had an effect.

Because in Italy you had fans that were for him in Ferrari and fans that were also for me.

And that unbalanced things a little bit.

Also because he knew that I didn't care.

That I wasn't impressed or afraid of him.

And he wasn't used to that, I think.

And that's why in the battles I had with him, it didn't always go good for him.

Because I just held strong against him.

And the same thing I noticed when I was at BAR afterwards in a BAR,

he would really take his time.

There was some kind of, I don't know if it's respect or not sure what's going to happen.

But he knew that I would just fight him and that was it.

Maybe coming from the States also helped.

Well, let's talk about Portugal again.

Portugal 96.

You've got the 180 degree final corner.

I can't seem to draw me by both of them.

Jack, it still is one of the great overtakes in the history of the sport,

round the outside of Michael.

Yes, and I was, I was very sad for many years because the only camera angle was the on board,

which you didn't really see all that happened.

And then not many years ago the footage from the outboard appeared and like,

oh wow, okay, now it looks good.

Although winter testing, that corner was reminding me of a one mile oval,

like Nazareth, for example, which is low banking, but still a little bit of banking.

That kind of corner and in Indycar you would overtake cars on the outside,

going around the outside because of the tiny little banking that you get.

So I spent the whole winter telling Jack and the team that I would overtake someone on the outside during the race.

You know, that was a goal.

I know, it sounds arrogant or like pompous, but it was part of the fun.

And that's why I've always loved racing is when you could have those moments as well,

where you could actually be different, make it different.

Do something that you knew others wouldn't do.

You know, I took that from when I was skiing.

Like, I could jump that cliff and you couldn't.

That's it.

And I brought that into racing.

And before the race, Jack said, okay, tell us on which lap.

So we come with a spoon to pick up the pieces.

That was, that he shouldn't have said that.

Because that was the little extra thing to push me doing it, I think he knew.

And the amazing thing is it happened not on a back marker, but on Michael,

whom I was fighting for a position.

And we were coming onto a back marker.

So he backed off just a little bit to give himself some breathing space.

And that's when I saw my moment.

I thought, okay, he's backed off a bit.

I won't lift it and just go around the outside and surprise him.

And that was the only way you could overtake Michael is by surprising him.

And you were on the marbles.

Do you remember having to play back?

Yeah, the second half of the corner.

I remember, the first half was going, oh, wow, I've got him.

And then suddenly I get on the marble and the car starts sliding thing.

Oh, that's going to be painful.

But no, I stayed on the track.

Yeah, a little bit more momentum coming out of the car.

Normally on an oval, you come out of the corner faster because you come from a higher height.

A little bit downhill with less tearing angle.

So that's why the outside normally works.

But that, the toe of the slow car in front of me.

And that just gave me enough speed to get ahead of Michael and then get in front.

It was very close and yeah, the car was moving on the marble.

It probably should have ended up in the wall.

Were you always good on low grip tracks?

Because fast forward to 1998.

And you gave Williams, and what was a difficult year for the team?

Their first podium at Hockenheim.

The old Hockenheim with the long straights.

So did you always thrive when the car was sort of moving around a lot underneath?

I always thrive when the car was a little bit light.

Because that made the car neutral or a little bit on the nose.

You know, we often say, oh yeah, like over here.

No, that, that, and like Max is like this.

He likes a car that's on the nose.

But that doesn't mean you want to be sideways.

Sideways is slow.

What you want is a rear that's just a little bit light.

So it's free.

And a little bit of steering input will rack right away.

You don't have to fight with the front end.

And you can feel the rear moving.

It's one the rear of moving.

You can do something about it.

When the front is not turning, you're kind of stuck.

So I've always liked a car that was a little bit light.

And very responsive.

That you can, you could just drive around.

But the other thing is it allowed me to often drive with less downforce than my teammates.

Or, or the opposition.

Just a couple of clicks less.

So it would give you a little bit of straight line speed.

And somehow if you got the balance right,

you could still be as quick in the corners.

You didn't have to muscle your car through the corners as much.

And that was always a big advantage back then when you didn't have the RS or movable wings.

Because you had to make compromises.

Right.

So Japanese Grand Prix 96.

It's a straight fight between you and Damon.

But you did enter the race nine points behind.

What was your approach to that Grand Prix?

Did you go in thinking,

ah, come on, I'm not really going to win this.

Or did you actually genuinely believe it was still possible?

I thought it was possible.

Anything can go wrong, like it happened to me.

Losing the wheel could have happened to Damon.

If we had inverted our pit stops.

And then it would be a very different story.

So no, you have to go in.

I knew I had to take a win.

But like you said earlier,

in the first few races, Damon built quite a margin.

And what was difficult in your recovering is it was him or me.

They were hardly ever someone in the middle because we were the car to beat.

Like the Mercedes has been for many years.

So on the good weekend, I would finish first.

And Damon probably second.

And then you were stuck.

So I knew that I had to do that.

So I got a great pole.

So that also to set the path for the following year,

because the team had brought friends and say,

he's the next world champion.

So I had to put the balls in the right place,

the roll the dice.

So to make sure that, you know,

I will be the guy for next year.

And there's nothing more I could do.

Paul and then try and win the race.

Losing the wheel had no effect in the end,

because at worst I would have finished second.

And Damon would still have been champion.

And we had a good time that night.

We had a good party and I was very happy for him.

It didn't feel like, oh, you know, I lost the championship.

But of course I was not happy to not have won.

But also he was deserving it so much that I was cool with it.

And it was great prep.

If we look at 96 as a whole,

it was a great prep for 97.

And let's go back to Melbourne.

You're 1.7 seconds faster than French in life.

On the drive, that felt good.

That felt good.

It was an insane moment.

Oh, that felt good.

I see it in Suzuka.

I was a second ahead, I think, or close to a second.

So it was a continuation of that.

And Melbourne is the track that I've always been at my quickest,

for some reason.

Every season, even in the car that was tough,

that's where I would be at my best.

And it worked out that year.

But it all ended up in turn one when Irvine decided to take us out.

Well, JV, it's been great to catch up again.

And great to relive that 96 season.

Oh, it's great memories.

Thank you.

All right.

See you soon.

Thank you.

Jacques is so matter of fact about everything.

I hope you enjoyed this chat as much as I did.

And even though I remember 1996 like it was yesterday,

I still learned a lot.

Not least, that Jacques was pleased for Damon to win the title.

Not that there wasn't a bit of needle between them.

Jacques mentioned he wants annoyed Damon by trying to steal his chicken.

We didn't have time to go into it in the interview.

But here's Damon's side of the story from an old episode of F1 Nation.

They used to bring their lunch that our lunch is into the engineer's room

and which is the tiny little room.

But anyway, he used to sit there and Jacques lent over with his fork

and tried to nick my chicken.

I thought, well, listen, I don't mind you trying to beat me out on the track

and whatever you get up to with behind my back.

But you're not having my chicken, OK?

And that was a point where we didn't know what to do.

And that was a point where we came to good understanding between us.

You can race me on the track, but you're not taking the food out of my mouth.

OK, that's enough.

Damon took the chicken and the championship in 96.

But by 97, Jacques was cock of the walk.

JV, thanks for your time. It was great to catch up.

And why not check out previous Beyond the Grid Legends episodes?

Sebastian Vettel was great at the end of last season.

So why not start with him?

And there's lots to listen to over on the F1 Nation podcast feed

our review of the Chinese Grand Prix is out now.

And F1 explains is taking a tour of the F1 paddock,

answering your questions about what happens there during a race weekend.

I will, of course, be back next week with another great guest from the world of Formula One.

For now, thank you very much for listening.

F1 Beyond the Grid is produced by Formula One and AudioBoom Studios.

Until next time, keep it flat out.