Let’s Be Frank About the Tank...

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Pointing out leafiness, right?

Like that's one of your go-to moves.

It's like what is the most leafy outcome that you could possibly have?

Here you've got these games down the stretch, Boston Bruins,

and New York Rangers to keep your tank alive.

You hurt your chances of getting a pick.

You help out the Boston Bruins in a somehow a victory in TD Garden.

Then on a back-to-back you get an opportunity to just keep it alive

with the loss of New York Rangers.

And not only do you win, you do it away where you get out shot by double.

The New York Rangers get more shots on net, Frankie.

Then they did all season.

This is a team that is actively trying to lose.

Not like, oh, you know, trying to play with a little bit of heart.

They just set a record the other day for minimal shots on net.

And here they do, they pump the Toronto Maple Leafs,

essentially wire to wire full shots.

And still the Toronto Maple Leafs end up winning this hockey game.

RIP tank, RIP hope of that top five pick.

She's over, buddy.

Now we're just in the slug.

Welcome to the show.

Well, it's great to be here.

Yeah, thanks for having me.

Hey, Leaf Nation, just remember, we're all in this together.

We're all in this together.

And it doesn't get any leafier than me sitting here with the Stanley Cup in the back.

And I'm using it as a planter now.

I'm using it as a planter.

The florist told me that this plant would start budding in the year 2067.

And the way things are going, that's maybe that's when we'll have a shot.

But the leafiness is everywhere.

It's everywhere.

You can't avoid it.

I was at the game tonight.

I left early just to be here and with you and with the people.

And I tell you, tonight was the loudest I've heard the Leaf Nation crowd all year.

You know why that is?

I was going to ask you about this.

It seemed like there was some energy in the building.

And you know what I'm attributing this to?

I have a theory on this.

Because like, listen, you would agree.

Oh, actually, you tell me because you were there tonight.

And I haven't been there since the Sabers game.

I noticed there was quite a shocking amount of empty seats.

But there's still more people in the building than I thought there would be.

But what is the look-wise when you're in there in terms of,

let's just contrast it to what last season was?

Oh, I mean, it's unbelievable to think of where we were last year, where we are this year.

I mean, it is, it's dead in there.

It's dead in there and the energy, it's, it's desolate.

And you can just feel it walking in.

Fans don't know whether to cheer for the Leafs or against the Leafs.

And for the record, like, the diehard Leaf fans, like,

we hate this position that we're in.

Like, we know they should be losing.

It feels so gross to want to see the Leafs lose.

But we know that it's, it's the right outcome to, to be hopeful for.

And like, some fans are divided and maybe we can get into this, like,

there's a lot of Leaf fans, they're like, oh, no, it's better to save the pick for 2021,

just get it over with now.

And like, yeah, I do kind of feel that.

You can make a case for that.

But tonight, tonight was the loudest the crowd has been all year.

You know why?

They showed the Blue Jays in attendance.

Yeah.

And the roar of the crowd, I tell you, it was louder than,

than what Matthew's got coming back and the cheer from, from his Olympic gold.

And I mean, I've been doing a lot of games this year.

And again, the energy seeing the Jays in the building,

and when they showed them the Jungle Toronto was lit.

But it's, it's still a lot more in there right now, man.

Again, you're going to get that pop because those Blue Jays represent Sweet Relief.

Yeah.

Like, it's just like, hey, the relief is coming.

Yeah.

The season's almost done.

Yeah.

Here's the team you actually like in the building.

Yeah.

Thank you for showing up tonight.

Thank you for giving the crowd a cheap pop.

My theory is that essentially the vast majority of people that are going to these games at this point,

one, you're a season ticket holder who can't dump these things for anything.

So you're like, God, I'm already pop committed.

I might as well go to this thing.

Yeah.

Or two, you have no idea what's going on.

And someone offered you leaf tickets and you're just like, yeah, sure.

I haven't been to a leaf game in five years because they're so expensive.

And now people are just giving them away.

So when you're hearing people cheer for the goals and you're hearing like, again,

I'm sure there are some that are like, I can't root against my team.

And I view that as a totally fine position.

But I think the rest of it is just like the building is mostly full of people that are fairly unaware

of just how bleak the situation is with this hockey team right now.

Yeah.

And I can tell you for certain, just being there and talking with some of the fans,

like to die hard, that are like, oh, human audio, we got a tank.

What are they doing?

Like the real fans know that this is not good.

And yes, like you said, there's a lot of fans who got tickets last minute

because people can't give them away right now that are there.

And I talk with a bunch of people that was our first game in three, four, five years,

like you said, they're kind of, so it's a lot of fans that are just like,

casually happy to be there because it's a leaf game.

But this is our worst nightmare is coming.

And I think you called it at the beginning of the year.

I remember texting with you, you're like, Frankie, don't get your hopes up, bud,

because they're going to fit in the somewhere in the middle.

And I'm like, no, our year.

And then it's like, no, tankier.

No, our worst nightmare.

I'm waking up in the middle and like jumping out of my bed,

hit my head against the ceiling thinking, oh my god, this is actually happening.

We're going to give the broom this back.

Yeah, it really does look like the broom's gave this pick.

But to me, it's like just for the game itself,

it's so frustrating to watch them win this way.

Like what we can have a little conversation about wool.

I do have some thoughts on him for later.

But if you're going to win some games,

you want to see something kind of positive from your group, right?

And so two of the things were, right?

Like I really do feel as though Eastern Cowan has taken a bit of a step here.

He's playing with more confidence.

Just like seems like the season on him hasn't worn him down,

but looks like a guy who has a little bit of jump.

But ultimately, the process with the team.

And some people are going to go, well, JD,

obviously they're going to be bad.

They're supposed to be bad.

They're missing Austin Matthews.

And you go, yeah, they've traded a couple of their guys.

Sure, they've traded a couple of guys.

And they don't have Austin Matthews.

But the rest of this team,

like for people like, this is what drives me nuts about them,

trying to sell you on this retool notion.

It's like the guys you're watching, guess what?

That's the hockey team.

Free agency is brutal.

You don't have a lot of assets to trade away.

You want to be picks to trade away.

There's no quick solution to how this thing is going to solve itself.

And so it's like, they're not trying to tank.

Their coach is trying to help them win.

He's deploying players like,

this is a must win game for the Toronto Maple Leafs.

And here you are playing again,

the New York Rangers.

One of the worst two teams in hockey

who have packed it in,

who are trying to tank,

who sent a letter to their fans saying,

hey, get ready for some of the pain.

And you get out shot by double and give them 40 shots.

Like, that's why the retool stuff to me

is such a weird thing to be trying to sell people on

because the idea that these guys

are going to fundamentally change

from what you saw tonight

to something that looks like a contender

or even a playoff team next year is nuts to me.

So I've been thinking a lot about this.

And like, I think a lot of us would recognize

that the right thing to do would be rebuilt.

That's the right thing to do at this point.

Okay. They won't do it.

We know. So either.

We know, and that's what defensive

they get through their heads is that

it's not even no point even having the debate.

Oh, they should move off a meal

in their map these novices,

and they're not going to do it.

They're not going to jeopardize

TV revenue and additional revenue.

They're going to stay the course.

And as a diehard fan,

you just got to close your eyes,

plug your ears,

and hope they can bring in a confident GM

that can maybe make some decent moves

in the off season.

I mean, injuries have played a massive factor this year.

Gold tending has been inconsistent until now.

Apparently, we got the best gold tending.

They're back. They're back.

And you got to hope that,

for the sake of this retool that,

and that's the way they're going,

you got to hope that Poppy can kind of

get back into the ballpark.

His prime is gone.

He's not going to get back to it,

but that's where it's going to start

and end in terms of this retool.

Maybe he actually working is,

he's got to get back to being himself.

I think when you start to do the hope game,

you hope this, you hope that,

you hope this, you hope that,

it starts to be patient.

Well, I will say though,

it's like this time around,

you got to go,

well, I hope they could find a way

to get another one,

another top defenseman.

Well, I hope that they could find

another winger for Matthews.

Well, I hope they could find

a second line center.

And I keep going over this,

where I'm like,

where are you going to get these guys?

Like, how is this going to happen?

Do yourself a favor,

if you're listening to the show,

Google the free agent class of this year.

Like, take a little peek

in a season where everybody's going to have cap space.

I talked about this with James Riddle today,

but yeah, I think you're right

that they don't want a retool

or they don't want to rebuild.

They would rather retool,

but at some point,

they're just has to, like,

this is why a game like tonight,

to me matters,

because if you're watching this

and if you're anyone in the brass

or you're somebody that's watching this

and you're even considering this job at some point,

how could you possibly sell yourself

on the idea that a team that gets

outshot by the New York Rangers like this?

And you can say back to back,

you can say whatever you want, no Matthews.

It's just, it's a, it's a huge, huge, huge ask

to turn this organization around.

Okay, the one thing I will say in terms of,

hey, the pick this year, the pick next year,

because I saw you talk about this on your Instagram today.

And like, I'm firmly in,

you take the devil you know,

if you can get a top five pick in this draft,

like you absolutely do it.

People are like suspending belief,

like thinking like,

well, you could get the following year,

the next first overall pick.

And you're like, you don't know what the situation's going to be.

Ultimately, if you could get a super talented guy

in the top five, you absolutely want to take it

and deprive your rival of that.

But one of the reasons for optimism

for me in terms of the record next year

is the goal-tending.

That's the one area that Toronto just does have figured out.

I know it was inconsistent throughout the year.

You mentioned how like now it's on fire.

But I think like that tandem,

the way that they look is pretty spectacular.

They're going to have a tough decision to make on Hill to be

because he doesn't have options next year.

But the one, I guess,

positive in terms of plays,

like these two goalies

are very much looking the part down the stretch.

And like, neither of them has,

like Joseph Wohl got buried by his head coach unnecessarily.

And he's continued to just battle and continue to look awesome.

Yeah.

I mean, people forget how good this tandem was last year.

They were easily a top five,

easily a top five duel in the league.

And that's why they won the Atlantic last year.

But we could talk about Mariner and health and this and that.

But everything is goal-tending in this league, everything.

You know, look at Florida.

For Broski down here.

They've had injuries too.

But they're not sniffing the playoffs either.

But yeah, you know, if there is a piece of optimism,

it's that.

And a part of me thinks like,

okay, yeah, they got to bring Hill to be up next year.

We got to see what we have in Denys Hill to be.

Not waiver protected.

You can't shuffle them up and down from the AHL.

You're probably going to have to move off

of one of these guys in the off season.

And maybe you can get something,

you know, in terms of a meaningful play now piece

that would help with this retool,

that that's what it is.

You know, there's no choice.

So, I don't know.

Maybe there's a trade ship there.

I could help.

This is a tricky one, no man.

Because if you're looking at this rationally,

I don't think anybody's going to give you much

for Anthony Stollars.

Like now he's appropriately paid.

He's an alter goal tender who's dealt with injuries

throughout his entire career,

including this season.

When he's on, he's money, right?

Like who doesn't love Stollars when he's on?

But ultimately, if you're talking about

what you're going to fetch in a deal,

difficult to predict it's going to be a lot.

Hill to be, if you're a team that's in the position

you're in right now,

which is one of the oldest teams in hockey,

that is at best retooling,

but can understand that the future could hold

some pretty devastating results

of awesome athletes use the size to say,

hey, you know what, I'm going to do the Quinn Hughes.

And 20 games in the next year,

asks for a trade and you're getting pennies back

with the guy with a full no move.

Yeah.

You don't want to get older,

so you don't want to lose a guy like Hill to be.

And then Wool is the one where it's like,

he could fetch you a price,

but if you're retooling,

he's your best guy in that.

So it's like,

you can't even have that situation be something

where you look at it and go,

all right, well, that's a pretty straightforward decision

that you're going to have here,

because I just don't think it is one,

because it's to your point.

Like if you think that you could cobble

something together,

like if you think Hill to be a stud,

and you think Stolars is an awesome backup

who could help him go throughout his career,

and you really need to get something back.

I mean, Joe Wool is the only option in that equation for me

that adds up to something of consequence.

But my god, to give up a goalie like this,

who's young in his prime,

who's shown pretty much nothing,

that when he plays,

that he's one of the better,

what, 10, 12 goalies on the planet?

Yeah, usually.

Yeah, that,

ugh.

I know.

And it's a guy that we drafted and developed,

and of course,

we put so much emphasis on that.

I mean, Hill to be as cool.

Likeable.

He's likeable.

You know, we love singing Wonderwall.

I mean, you love singing.

I mean, I love singing.

I haven't, I haven't, I haven't sung it much this year,

but you know,

he, he falls in the middle of Hill to be,

and Stolars can't,

I will lose my mind if they trade Hill to be this off season.

I will lose it.

He could be our tender of the future,

okay?

And I like this Russian kid too,

Octoyama.

You know, like, you never know what you have there.

And, you know, if this was my team,

and I was running the Leafs,

he would have been in that tonight.

I would have called him up.

Let's, let's give this kid a couple of stars.

Now, I get you can't tell the players to tank.

The players are not,

you can't say guys glowed in half-asket,

you know, but you can do something,

like call Octoyama about what,

they wouldn't have won that game

today if he was in that night, probably, you know?

So like, there are things you can do

from the top down to facilitate the tank

that brass just has that,

any interest whatsoever in doing.

And that's what the most annoying thing is a fan,

is that they are

choosing irrelevance.

They're choosing irrelevance.

It's so annoying.

I've mentioned this on a million shows,

but it's like, I feel like I got back in a time machine

for the mid-2000s, where it was like,

hey, you made a bad trade with Boston.

You're stuck in the middle.

You're not really going to make any good picks.

You got nothing in the cupboards that's really exciting.

You're an older hockey team full of slow guys.

And the fan base is staring,

looking around at each other going,

I don't know.

Do we need more troculants?

Do you are stuffed at what,

where are we supposed to go from here?

What are we supposed to do with any of this?

And yeah, like again,

I feel like I'm beating a dead horse with this stuff,

but it's just, it's really hard to watch

these games right now where you had,

at least just one thing you were kind of watching for,

right, which is, hey, maybe just maybe you can,

you can dangle that hope out there.

You can get people to think that they're going to fall

down the standings.

And who knows?

They end up with a,

a Verhoff or a Gavin McKenna and all of a sudden,

people have something to cling there,

hopes to the following year.

And now we're going to be doing this thing where it's like,

boy, maybe we can push this thing as bad,

as bad as possible for the Boston Bruins.

So hopefully they can pick maybe 10th.

Yeah, and you know,

you know, whoever they draft with our pick

is going to end up being a stud.

You know, they're probably,

they'll probably take the next kill in the car with whatever pick.

Well, this is what I've been pushing back

with people who are like,

don't you want to push the Bruins pick back?

I'm like, what's the difference?

Like, think about the difference in you landing a top five pick

and denying Boston that for a year versus Boston picking between what?

Instead of six, they pick ninth.

You really think that's a big victory that three players

got picked in front of the guy they want to take?

Yeah, come on.

No chance, no chance.

And the 2028 draft class, like,

we don't know what it's going to be like.

Like, there's no defined first overall for 2028.

There's some good players.

This 26 draft class is loaded.

We know it's good.

And it's like, okay,

let's, the window was open in the here and now, boys.

There is a chance that the Leafs could like be kind of decent next year.

If they get back to health and, like I said,

they make some changes.

Like, yeah, there is a,

there is a scenario where the Leafs are better next year.

You know, it's hard to be worse.

Yeah, I don't think it'd be worse, right?

So, so try to try to get on this now.

Just to switch topics for a second.

You know what I was thinking about today is I was watching the game.

I'm sitting there watching the boys.

And I'm, I'm looking at John Tavaris.

Yeah.

And I think of myself like,

what is, what is poor Johnny T thinking right now?

This guy left, left a ton of money on the table to be here.

Yeah.

I want to come back.

I want to, God, God love Johnny Toronto for wanting to stay here.

And like, what is he thinking right now?

This guy deserves a shot at a cup.

He's never been out of the second round in his life.

Like, what's going through his head?

I think that he's comfortable and that his family

series got a young family here.

Like, maybe he's certainly on that contract,

way more palatable to another team that would be willing to actually give you

something to, to bring him in.

Imagine like, again, you get John Tavaris and he kicks out to the wing

for the next couple of years on four and a half.

Anybody who thinks Tavaris is a problem.

I've said this for time and time again.

He's not, he's not, he's not $11 million John Tavaris anymore.

You have to recalibrate your brain for the expectation,

which is you got a guy for and a half million dollars who can still do that.

You know, you're okay.

And I think you're going to be okay for the next couple of years,

especially since again, probably not the demeanor that this team needs right now

from the standpoint of like a vocal personality,

a bit more of a vocal leader who's going to like ensure there's a culture shift

with this hockey team.

I would just, I think in terms of you take that money,

you've already sacrificed the captaincy.

You've sacrificed power play time, ice time.

You're obviously going to be asked to be the third line center next year.

Tough, tough to think that he's going to say,

you know what, move me out west and let me go grind in a new place to end my career

and have me finish with like this sour taste of my mouth with the way that

things ended in Toronto.

I got another one for you though, from one of the other goalscores tonight.

Okay.

Because you were sitting there and you were thinking about Johnny Tavaris.

Yeah.

I saw Nick Robertson rip that goal and I went.

If you, so you got to, you got to get rid of, I think, two of the three.

Michele Robertson, Domey.

Yep.

Agree or disagree?

You have to get rid of two of the three.

Is, is, is Dakota Joshua in that mix?

I think Dakota Joshua is like borderline unmovable.

Yeah, no one's going to take him.

No, not for anything back like look at the year he just had.

I just mean like same thing with Domey.

Domey's contract, I don't think it's going to be a peach to move either.

Yeah.

Like if they could have got something from Max Domey at the deadline,

I don't think they do it.

I'm just saying like you've got to be trying to be a little forceful

with the lineup turnover this off season.

You have to be, yeah.

Because they didn't do enough in the off season and you said that.

You were like, they did not do enough last off season to turn the lineup over

and change the culture.

They have to do that this year.

They got stuck on the Martian thing and he played him like a fiddle

and he ends up going back to Florida and Toronto was kind of left

told in the bag with again a week for age and class.

But if you had to pick one of those three guys to be back,

it's Robertson, right?

Michele is kind of interesting because he has shown

he has shown some playmaking ability this year.

But I do think ultimately if I had to pick one,

it would be Robertson to keep on that group.

Domey is another weird one because there's some likes Domey looks great

and he brings the passion.

He brings like he brings some nights he he plays a little like his dad,

not from like a nail gun.

I'm going to fight everyone and hit everyone.

But he brings the passion and he's a key facilitator of passion for this team.

Because his name on the back and who he is,

when he does something, it does rattle the crowd up and bring them up.

But the thing with Domey and I hate to say this because he's a great dude off-dice

and we love him.

There's been too many nights in the time he's been a leaf for you just,

you just don't notice him at all.

There's too many nights where it's just like he didn't do anything.

You know, so yeah, he would be, he would be the one if you can find somebody.

But what are you, again, what are you even going to get from him for him?

I don't think anything.

I don't think that any of these guys have any value.

Like Michele is an RFA and you got no clue if another team would want him.

I think that Toronto would have again moved him at the deadline

if there was something possible there.

Yeah.

I don't think there was.

I think Domey is negative value at this point

with what the contract is even with the rising salary cap.

Like he's bounced around a ton in his career and you're right.

Like, I think Domey has the right ideas in his head

and he's got some skill that's clearly there.

But at his number, it's just it's not tenable.

He's like, he should have been, if he's like a 1.5 million guy in your roster

and you get to sell the jerseys with the name and the skill set,

you can say like, all right, whatever, you can move up the line up a little bit.

Yeah.

Robertson just, like, there's nothing to really go crazy about there.

It's just, it's kind of the same MO year in year out

which is there's some flashes, there's some nights,

there's some games where he really competes.

But I think that what you said there about Domey about how

there's nights where you just don't notice him.

That applies to all three.

And so at some point with those three guys,

I think like, if you're the Maple Leafs

and you're whoever's coming in here,

you can't turn over a million different bodies.

I saw a clip of who's Gabby today saying they got to bring in at least six new faces

and I went, yeah, that feels about right.

Yeah.

I just think that if it was me, I'd probably put the slight edge

to Nick Robertson out of those three guys

if I was going to keep one of them.

And I can't believe I'm saying that

because I've given up on Nick Robertson 85 times.

I'm sorry.

Yeah, like, it feels like 20 times a year

during his leave career.

It's like, you gotta get rid of this guy.

Yeah.

But gotta go.

He's the one you can bring back at a reasonable cap hit, right?

That can put the puck in the back in the net.

Michele, I agree, still a bit of an unknown Domey,

we know what he is.

Robertson maybe still has some potential

that hasn't been scratched

because he hasn't been playing in the top six,

you know, with regularity throws.

Yeah, but there's a reason for that, you know.

There's a reason for that.

It's just like it.

I think we did that a little

where we talked about Robertson and being like,

hey, he's got to get more opportunity

when he was hot this season.

Yeah.

And then he went through a bit of a cold spell

and then there was a stretch

where right after we got all horned up for it,

he was a healthy scratch again.

Yeah, healthy scratch, yeah.

Hey, maybe we bring his brother in in the off season.

Oh, that's the last thing that we need.

I can see the leaves doing that.

Like, oh, let's do a cool brother combination.

That'll sell, that'll sell jerseys.

Back to Chavarris, what's interesting is like,

he's looking at the Ford group.

He is the guy that would fetch you something

because of his capet and because of his production.

You know, like if you were to look at the leaves

Ford group right down to like who's realistic to move out

and actually gets something meaningful

to the teams with lineup to get him into their lineup,

but he doesn't want to go anywhere.

So again, it's just like there's so,

there's a million different predicaments

with this team right now.

Yeah.

And that this is also where you live

with the full no move clauses for everybody.

Everybody.

Yeah.

Chavarris signs that deal.

He gets a full no move.

Yeah.

Neelander's got the full no move.

Matthew's got the full no move.

Like everybody that reupped these deals.

Like they've got, look at what happened

with all of our equipment, Larson.

Would I think that, I think that if OEL didn't have

that no move that he'd still be here right now

instead of being shipped off somewhere else?

Like, no, he probably would have been gone.

But that's the world we live in, brother.

Yeah.

Anything else for you before we wrap up here?

Because yeah, I got.

I mean, just to close on that thought,

like if there's one thing that we could point out

and say this is what ruined this era of we pocket,

no move clauses.

Like you could point at a lot of different things.

But if we had a GM that was like,

you know what?

No one's getting a no move.

Nobody.

Okay, Matthew's in Neelander.

Yeah, I mean, you could have limited, limited,

no full of, if there was one thing that sunk this era

and has contributed to this predicament we're in,

it's giving out no movement clauses,

like Oprah's giving out cars.

I want over shows.

It's ridiculous.

Yeah, it's gotten to the point now in the NHL

where such a huge percentage of the league has them.

Yeah, that I do wonder if the next CBA

when it rolls around, which is a while.

But if there's actually some discussion amongst

the general managers and the league

in terms of potentially limiting this stuff,

like you look at the NBA right now,

they're trying to make solves for tanking.

And I think that the NHL's version of this

because tanking's not the same issue in this sport.

But one thing that might need to get looked at

is the no move clauses.

Even though some people stand by them

and obviously the players do want them.

All right, again, you can follow this man

at Hockey Illuminati on Instagram.

One of the best leave follows that there is.

You're still trying to do the nice thing

of giving people good tickets,

but it's like they're just moving closer to see.

Yeah, I should see them closer to the ice

to see the pain that is this Maple Leaf Steam.

Right.

But yeah, brother, we'll be talking to you again soon.

We'll be having you back on thanks for doing this.

Thanks for listening, subscribe, review,

and we'll see I think Sammy's on.

I'm off the next one.

It's Saturday again.

Oh, no, it's, yeah, blues.

It's the blues on Saturday night.

Because it's like it used to mean something for the tank.

Not Saturday?

Luke, what?

Oh, we're off on Saturday.

That shows cancel, apparently.

Next week, Leafs talk.

All right.

That's what we're going back.

Good, take some time off.

Can you even work on hardest here?

It's only as a wedding.

I think Sammy has a wedding or something like that.

Anyways, for Frank Rupy, for JD Bunkas, we'll see you soon.

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