Lindsay Clancy’s Defense Says Prosecutors Never Offered WHAT?!

0:00This is the Big Breakdown. A long look back at some of the biggest stories we're covering for you at the Hidden Killers Podcast and True Crime Today. This is Hidden Tillers Live with Tony Brusky and Robin Dree. Let's go here. The District Attorney, did they paint themselves into a corner right from the start by going for the first degree murder? I mean, should this have been, should this have been something lesser? Or to begin with, or would that, you know, sometimes you go in with a harder charge assuming that that jury's going to end up with a lower one. So, so you do, you know, you go in harder. You got three children are dead. I mean, is it politically possible for an elected prosecutor to offer a plea deal without facing some sort of massive back lash, even if proving cold blood-free meditation was always a huge gamble? But notice the word political gets mixed into there.

1:02So the motivations of how you're prosecuting a case don't necessarily rest on, you know, the laurels of the case or what's right or wrong if you're adding the word political into the conversation. Yeah, political always seems to come in at some point because every time we look at trying to understand why certain people are making certain decisions when it comes to prosecuting what case is they're going to prosecute, there's usually some sort of election coming up. I mean, we just dealt that with that out in Vegas with a, what's its face case, right? Yeah. But in this case, so, and here's why I don't, again, my conjecture on this one, I don't think politics played a huge part of this, you know, so it goes to your original question, you know, why go for first degree murder when you have a lot of other options on this? And here's what I think. And this is based off of what we're seeing. And if you look and if you go online and you pull up the stats on how people are standing on this case, if you're in the camp, like a lot of people are, 100% guilty, premeditated,

2:05no such thing as herf is breaking a psychotic, you know, having a psychotic break because, you know, you look at, it's not exactly Andrea Yates like. And so she's wrong, she's guilty and she should be behind bars. I believe this is exactly and oh, anyway, the people that think that by and large are law enforcement and prosecutors, that is, and there's, I know there's a lot of other people in there, but people that lean hard towards law enforcement, justice and prosecution side oriented people, they're typically on that side. And so if you live inside a neco chamber of that, like the prosecution does here, they're talking to law enforcement, they're talking to other people, they're looking past cases that it happens because this case is so rare. They're saying themselves, of course, we're going to go for first degree murder. Why wouldn't we? She's guilty when you look at their courtroom demeanor. What was really telling to me for the two prosecutors in the room was when the entire courtroom is falling apart in emotion because we had Bob Mod on the inside. It wasn't just Lindsey Clancy collapsing on herself, balling, shaking, but everyone else

3:06dealing with that same high emotions, looking at the pictures of the murdered children and everything. Listen to the 911 call. The only two people not to be losing their shit were the two prosecutors. And so how can that happen? How can they be like that? Well, they think she's performative. When you think someone's performing and they don't really feel that emotion and you just see them as a vile human being, their emotions don't impact you whatsoever. It typically. And so again, pure conjecture, I don't know them. I don't live inside their heads, but my conjecture on this is the reason they went for first agreements. They complete the 100% believe in an entire echo chamber that this is exactly the only thing that fits in their mind and anything less would be wrong. Well, I mean, I feel like that's, I think how we had such vitriol through this whole case from the beginning is because there really wasn't, I don't know, a lot of minds being changed or ability to hear the evidence in this case and have an opinion swayed.

4:15I think a lot of people went into this middle of the road. I could be wrong, I'm sure there's some, but I don't know that a lot of people were middle of the road and this to begin with and we're willing to be swayed. I feel like a lot of people went in with their direction they were going and then the echo chamber started on any side. And it just fortified that even harder and each, each side gets louder at each other. But at the end of the day, also both sides not hearing each other because I think it's funny in some ways when you get to talking with people on this, if you have a different opinion, everybody agrees. Yes, it's horrible. The children are dead. 100%. I think sometimes you, you almost get so upset at a person is a different opinion about the logistics of this case, which is really what we're talking about. And if it's different, we start assigning their own attend to this, their own beliefs

5:16of they, they, they don't care about the children. I think everybody, though, everybody cares about the damn kids. And everyone wants to be behind bars. It's just, it's just this engend population or getting psychiatric treatment. I mean, seriously, everyone, no one wants to route in public. Nobody wants early. But at the end of the day, people don't want this to happen again. People don't want this to keep happening again. And that's what gets me on it is there really is only one path for that. And that's understanding this and looking at the ways that she was failed and hopefully putting enough speed bumps in place to prevent the next one. There will always be failures. There will always be people that will fall through the system. That will happen. But if we can recognize that, hey, if some of these things have been done better, we probably wouldn't be here. We will catch several others of them in the process. But if we just go and say, well, every time that come by, just burn them at the stake, that's not helping anything.

6:17That's, that's not justice. That's, that's, that's just, you know, I don't know, that's ignorance in my opinion. And, and there's, there's so many parts of that. Just, just the people just don't understand that I think at the end of the day, we have so much more in common on this case than, than people realize. So even the hard liners has said, you know, lock, lock her up and throw the way of the key. Okay. But what would it cost you to just say, well, get her treatment along the way too? So we can learn, you know, part of that treatment is have the researchers go in there and also talk to her. So we can actually have all the red flags are going off along the system, all the things that failed her in the system, all the medications that weren't working for her. And whether you believe she's taken them, I don't even care. Whatever was going on didn't work. Why not incarcerated like you want to incarcerated her and then just instead of throwing away the key and being ignorant, why don't we learn from it and move forward so it doesn't happen again. And so the whole point of criminal justice system is to justice.

7:19And what's part of justice? Not allowing that to happen again. I actually researched justice too on this one because everyone says, I want justice for the children. Well, what is justice for the children? Justice to the family. The family wants her incarcerated getting medical treatment. So everyone that is standing for locker up in general population throw the way the key to rest your life. So you're standing against the family's wishes, which are the only survivors in the remaining victims. So you're standing opposed to the victims in this. That's interesting. And it costs you as a human being, nothing to allow her to get treatment and be researched. So it doesn't happen again. But to me, as justice is learning to not let this happen again. I don't understand what the argument is about learning. Because it means accepting that maybe your deeply held belief systems or opinions in the past might be wrong. But yeah, I'm not even saying that. That's why people don't like that.

8:20But I'm saying you're wrong. Okay, you're right. You want to unlock the way. I mean, so, I mean, you know, because you know, again, I hate bringing up gens so much. But you know, a lot of times on a lot of cases, we wind up an exact, the same outcome of what we think should happen on the case. It's the path we got there, which is different. But again, if the end of the day, the golden objectives that is attained, good. I mean, I do this all the time. So what my team did all the time was we had what I call it. We operated on what I called the code of trust. And the first step in the code of trust is what's your goal objective and priority? And then the next step under that is, who do we need on our side to achieve that? And then I have all these steps to bring on these people. But that number one thing is what's your goal and objective and priority? Because as we diverge on the world of the Watson house and how we're going to make that happen and the path forward, that's what we get like this. And that's exactly where we are today. I mean, seriously, everyone do your own thought experiment right now. Everyone on both sides of this case, at the end of the day, we're so closer aligned than the Watson house where everyone's arguing was like she, she should be criminally responsible.

9:23She shouldn't be criminally responsible. She can take her medications. She did take her medications. She was taken for this. I mean, all these things in here, except for the Patrick Nutter stuff, you know, all these things are arguing the Watson house. But at the end of the day, I don't know anyone that says we want to release, we want to release and allowed happen again to other babies. No one wants to go out again and have more babies and kill them and the probability that went through the probability that, you know, the earlier she should be released, she'd probably going through menopause. The fact that she might end up being able to have kids because of her injuries is also pretty high. Just go to the end of the day. Everyone is pretty much looking for really, really closely aligned the same thing. Why is everyone arguing so much? That's what really blows my mind. I, I, I, I mean, it goes in so many, there's the spiders off in so many different directions. If you strip away the lawyers and the courtroom theatrics, I mean, just for a second, Lindsey Clancy is paralyzed from the waist down in a wheelchair, living every day with the

10:27realization of what, what she did. I mean, what does society actually gain by putting her in a state penitentiary versus a locked psychiatric facility? I mean, is it about public safety? Is it just pure payback? It's, it's the insatiable need for revenge and we got you. I mean, it's, I don't know, I mean, I think people really need to take a step back and look at where the rage comes from in this case. If you're really feeling it hard, I think you got to ask why and and where. And she's often herself up as a science experiment. Literally, she says, I'm, B, I want to be your science experiment, figure this out. She wants to be an advocate for people, not having, and she doesn't want to be out, form her own, not for profit, you know, living in society. Because again, remember, she's still on S watch 24, seven, one on one, always being observed because if given the chance, she'll offer herself.

11:28She will self delete and heartbeat. And so if you're going to make her stick around, she's saying, I might as well, again, I'm not trying to put words in her mouth, but from what we've seen, from what we've heard, the leakage is that she wants to make a difference. So now, LaLa's happen again. If she's going to be remained on this planet. Let's look at this here in the very, I mean, it's highly unlikely that anything other than a mistrial is going to be the outcome here at this point. Let's talk about the, unlikeliness that were, I mean, in my opinion, that we're going to see her at another trial. I mean, at this point, I don't know. I have my doubts. They're going to have to keep that S watch pretty tight. I think that's why Reddington invoked this, in fact, when you look at the language of what he invoked, and he invoked the, you know, the Karen Reed trial saying that she was able to physically make the retrial and he why he asked for a stake and not putting words in her mouth because it came in the last of me for going there.

12:29But when I look at this and pulled it up, it looks like he's afraid that she's not going to make it the retrial because of all the issues, because of her wanting to offer herself. Yeah. And that's a legitimate, a very legitimate concern because, because I don't even every state. I mean, it is a legitimate concern. I brought it up the other day with Shivan. I don't know that it shouldn't not be an option for human beings that find themselves in an absolute horrendous position in life. I would certainly think this would qualify if you come out of a psychosis like this, realize the horrendous things that you did. And in the way the world has positioned itself against you, I don't know. I would think that would qualify to be a humane way of exiting. Should you choose to go? My guess is that, but because she's on 24 or 7s watch for the last three plus years, yeah.

13:30So we can do a circus basically. Yeah. I would say the only other reason that she is still here is because Reddington and her family are big in her to stay. Yeah. I literally it. I mean, what other reason is there? She doesn't want to be here. I don't know. I really think it's going to be an interesting task. Take the eyes off her and give her the opportunity. I don't think she'll be here. Yeah. I agree. And I think that's the reality of a lot of this. A lot of angry people online. I know. I'm trying to like look at some of them and read some of them as we wait to see. If they're going to get back here in the court, we're more than an hour now into this. Yeah. Yeah. Emolence. And that's what it is. People, people mistake that word vengeance and justice. Vengeance is a very, very unhealthy thing for people to go after. And literally, what are you avenging?

14:31I mean, just ask yourself these questions. Why are you, you as an individual, if you're one of these people worked up? I mean, even after myself, you know, asking myself these things, you know, as I'm watching this play out and looking at the hung jury, wanting this to be finalized on what I think is a fair and just prosecution and defense of this thing. And the way I keep myself from getting wrapped up in that is saying, well, the system is working the way the system is designed. Can it be better? Yes. Can it be fixed? Yes. But at the same time, it is working like it is. And at the end of the day, it's not my justice. It's not my revenge. I mean, I'm not looking for any of that. I'm looking for people being served, public safety being served, and you're not bringing the kids back. And when you, when you can't do anything else, I pay attention to families. You know, when you look at the, the consolvuses dealing with what they think is justice for their lost daughter and the other three that lost their hands, the co-burger and that monster.

15:35You know, you listen and pay attention to them. And you know, when you look at the victim impact statements they gave, those are profound. And the only thing I keep playing forward on this one is what will, you know, say that she comes back and is convicted whether this time or retrial is the next one. And the family gets up there to give victim impact statements. They're going to be saying, please, please put her in a psych ward. I mean, it's all they want. That's all anyone wants. I just don't understand why people aren't listening. I don't know. I don't know exactly why, you know, I don't know. I've been surprised by this entire case quite honestly. Exactly. I was talking one. The amount of vitriol, the amount of just directions and roads that everyone has been going down on this case, where we go all the way to the, the, the Patrick roads to, everything. It's, it's, it's really just been kind of shocking.

16:36All the directions that it has, has taken us down. We're now at about 12 o'clock central time. We're about an hour and a half now since the judge gave Reddington about an hour to go and get that. Okay. I mean, as you're doing that. So the Jerry, yeah, put her in a posh facility. All right, Jerry. So let's explore that. You say posh facility. So you think it's a posh facility. Did you do the research on where she actually is right now and where she'd be housed? No you didn't because if you look it up, it's not a posh facility. So it's, it's, when people make a statement that is completely pulled out of your ass, do some research before you put it out there because that is not the way it works. And if you think it's, so here's what you do before you open the mouth, open the brain and say yourself, all right, I think she's going to be saying a posh facility. Let me take a look at what that is.

17:36Let me actually do like five seconds here, what you do, just put in the Google machine where she housed right now. And you're going to hear it's like, it's like, it's often never said this the other day. Oh, the, the system of care that she'd get if she's put in a gen pop that she'd get the psychiatric care that they have because Massachusetts is really good. So you know, say, well, Gen, you made a fair point before I opened my mouth. Let me research this for the second time because I already did it. And she is full of shit because they are that facility that they have is understaffed, undermaned and is underfunded. So she, so your posh facility, what do you think it is that it's, seriously, when you say posh facility, define exactly what that means. You think she's there having, having cookies and milk and tea all day long? What would all of you go? Yoga, yoga, really sane people that you are. The reality check is so far skew. And I'm not piling on you as it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's typically what people do on this is they come up with a wild ass congestory called a wag wild ass guess and they throw

18:38it out to the ethernet and then people grab onto that. So yeah, that's why we don't want her to be found not criminally responsible because she's going to be in a posh facility. No, really, you're full of shit. Well, there's so much of it. I heard, I heard, I heard this and it's like the first, when I hear that I'm like, oh, God. Tell me to hear it from. I don't know. So, like, what, where did, like, where is this from? Where are you getting? And I don't know, I've really been, I've been kind of amazed by talking with various folks about this case. A lot of people seemingly very invested having very little in terms of facts in their toolbox when talking about it. I mean, it's a great case to talk about in terms of trying to understand and in a, for a thought exercise, but you can only, you know, you only, you only play the game if you got the parts, you know, you don't go to my, play bring out the monopoly board and go, well, we got no pieces and no money, you know, I mean, well, you can't really play the game then that's not going to work out.

19:39Well, and now compare it to Gypsy Rose. Yeah, that's a real close comparison. That's really good. Yeah, the comparisons too have been really kind of wide. I love you too, miss Maldon. No, that have, have shown up. Um, the, the only, I love you too, miss Maldon. The, the only comparison that, I mean, I mean, I mean, it's the comparison I made early on. And I, I'm going to, I'm going to share this in case, um, folks have not seen it. Uh, here, I think this is a fairly accurate comparison to what we've seen. Massachusetts, where history still comes alive, looking for a place where the authorities don't let science get in the way of a good story, you'll feel right at home. Since 1692, Massachusetts has been the nation's leader in skipping the facts and going straight to the verdict. Thirteen medications in four months, a psychiatric hospital stay, a journal full of cries for

20:39help. It doesn't matter. If we can't understand it, you must have planned it. It's not a bug. It's a tradition. My great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather helped rid Salem of its witches. Every single day I carry on that fight. Back then, we called them witches. Now we just called them Lindsey Clancy. Either way, we get the job done. And while you're here, meet the locals. Our online community is home to some of the most dedicated investigators in the country. They don't need medical records. They don't need a degree. They watched a 45 second video and they just know. The husband, suspicious, was he at CVS? Sure. He called 911 screaming technically. But does that feel right? Here in Massachusetts, we don't let details get in the way of a perfectly good theory You'll find people who've already solved the case the actual jury hasn't finished hearing yet.

21:43That's not arrogance. That's efficiency. And really, why would you waste time understanding most part of psychosis? When you could just decide she's evil and get on with your day? Massachusetts, where we've been wrong about women for over 300 years and never been more confident. Visit soon. Stay as long as you like. Just don't get sick. Around here, a breakdown and a broomstick are still the same thing. Good to put out cherries and pieces right before the Labor Day holiday weekend. I was thinking about, as you're playing that again. So here's something that Jen brought up the other day. I thought, I give a lot of thought to a lot of other states that don't have, there's like a four I think that don't actually have the defense that you can use for criminally

22:46insane or not guilty by reason. Sandy slash criminally culpable. What they do is they got rid of that defense and what they use is they use all these things in these facts and that has presented during this case as mitigation for where you're going to serve your term. I'd be fine with that too. Again, I'm focused on the outcome. I don't care how you get there. I'm not all I do because I think part of this is also the mental health system that failed or that got us to this point. Obviously, but that part needs to be fixed. I think that's what this is good education for. However, she gets into that facility so she can be treated so we can learn from this so we cannot let this happen again. That's fine with me too. Because again, if this happened in one of those other states, we wouldn't be having this conversation, which I know everyone says this is not, you know, the mental health system is not on trial, but it's certainly the cause of it. I just want to let you guys know that they're giving Reddington a little bit more time. I think they're going to take the lunch break and all that and then come back. So just so you're aware.

23:47Okay. So he's got some more time. So this is probably not going to be wrapping up anytime immediately soon. Okay. All right. So I mean, I wonder, I mean, look at the end of the day, this is, this is, I mean, the someone's future on the line. I thought it was kind of interesting earlier where it was said, you want them to stay into the weekend or come back on Tuesday. Like we are talking about the future existence of a human being. That's what I was thinking, Tony, because I think the judge said you want them to come back tomorrow and I'm thinking, yeah, he did. Yeah, he did. And I think Reddington was going to, but ready to go after him on that. You know, I, Jerry wants to deliver my guest room all because I'm standing on the fact that she needs help behind bars and also, and she's putting it inside and you just stay in my guest room. What? He's like, I like the comment. I just, what, like why? I don't know. I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I'm, it'll be interesting to see where this goes.

24:51Who knows? But I mean, yeah, I mean, if there's grounds to figure this out and wrap this up, yes, as inconvenient as it might be to run this into the weekend, to run this into Tuesday, it would probably be more beneficial than another two, three year ramp up to another trial and all of the time and all of the effort and all of the money and all the emotional, all of that energy is being spent. If it's going to intrude a little bit into the weekend, okay. Here's one. Here's what I wish we had Bob on the ask and I don't know this off the top of my head. I'm wondering that during this time that that, um, Reddington got by asking for this stay, can the jury, can that one jury flip his mind during that time period? And they come back unanimous from it. If they're, I mean, I don't know. I'd just be curious whether that's a done deal that they came back that they're, um, deadlocked or whether this extra time might give them time to, I don't know.

25:53Yeah, I, I don't know the answer. I don't know that they're technically deliberating at this moment, but they're, they're somewhere you know, they're, they're, they're somewhere, uh, but are they using that time to deliberate? I don't know the answer to that question. Uh, we will definitely be getting answers later in the day. Uh, if there is a verdict, we'll bring it to you here. Uh, and, uh, if not, well, you know, then we obviously continue to follow this, uh, to wherever it may lead. But for right now, I think we're going to wrap up the, uh, the coverage and fascinating conversations throughout the day going to be dropping with Eric Fattis and others. So be sure to, uh, to check that out. Robin Drake, uh, we're turning F.E.I. Special Agent as always. Uh, thank you for, for being here and giving us your insight, your master class. It's available. Tell us about that. Yeah. If you want more behavioral assessment stuff and learn how to become the person that people trust, check out masterclass, go to masterclass.com backslash. Robin Drake and, uh, thanks very much. All right. Check it out.

26:54Uh, we'll keep watching until next time for Robin and Todd. I'm Tony. I'll talk again real soon. Peace. Who was desperately crying for help while being prescribed and ever shifting chaotic cocktail of medications? This trial pulled back the curtain on postpartum healthcare, the system that, uh, seems to be, uh, blind in many ways to acute psychosis, uh, and the catastrophes that can take place, uh, when things are not monitored appropriately. Joining me to discuss Bob Mata, host of defense diaries in Rob and Drake, retired F.E.I.I.

27:57Special agency for the counterintelligence behavioral analysis program. What is next? That is the big question everybody is asking, uh, as of this morning, we're recording this on Tuesday morning after the long holiday weekend. Uh, I know last, we heard on Friday, red was going to be filing some things this week. Bob, where, where do we sit on the train track of Lindsey Clancy going forward, right? Ah, it's so hard to know. It's so hard to know, you know, I mean, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, really depends on what the DA likes to do here. Right. Like, let's, because when they both walk out of the courtroom that day, emotions are high. And I'm talking about, you know, both the DA and, and writing ten and then when they gave their, their, you know, heated comments, both of them were kind of on fire. Um, you know, red was upset. And, and so was the DA. You know, I mean, he, they were both adamant about what they were saying.

29:01Mm hmm. When cooler heads start to prevail, and you've got some time for this to kind of settle in, you know, cause walking out of that courtroom that day, you know, having done this, uh, for many years, there's a lot going on with you. No one made a definitive statement of, uh, you know, we're going to be retrying this. The DA didn't, uh, you know, reddington, you know, alluded, we're ready. You know, we're ready to go and, and it's a good morning, American this morning too. He said that, you know, they're open to anything that they come back with. So I mean, he seems, he's, you know, he's up and ready to go, but there's a lot of potential paths here forward. Uh, Massachusetts, the, the rule basically from what we understand, first degree, it has to be a jury trial. So the idea of a bench trial coming in from what we understand would have to be a lesser charge second degree man slaughter things of that nature on the table, uh, for a bench trial to take place without a jury, uh, is that really where we sit?

30:02Either they lesser the charges and then we go to a bench trial possibly, uh, or what other options, uh, what are the possible scenarios here in this hellish choose your own adventure book? Well, I mean, essentially they could go, re-try in the same indictments. Yeah. Um, assuming that double jeopardy is not a barrier and that's going to be something that potentially depending on what happens with the DA's office, what crews decides to do. I think if they, they come out relatively quickly and say that we're re-trying or you're going to see this thing go up, uh, up, you know, up the chain in terms of getting up to probably the SJC at some point as we saw in the Karen Reed case where, you know, they're basically saying, because Reddington asked the judge, uh, towards the end to basically pull the jury.

31:02Yeah. Did not happen. Why? Why did that? I mean, this just seems like cross your tea dot your eye. This happened in Karen Reed too. I mean, why not just do it? What do you got to lose? Right. And what didn't happen is the lawyers did not ask the judge to do it and Reed. Here he did. I am. Yeah. And that was a sticking point and Reed when they appealed it up to the, I think it went up to the SJC. They appealed it to the SJC because there is that language that says the judge at the judge's discretion can ask the jurors if they were hung on everything or say, all right, well, we were, we were, we were good on first degree. We decide that we weren't going to go first degree, but we were, and we were, we were good on, uh, you know, the manslaughter where we were kind of hung on was, was the, you know, was going to be the second degree or the manslaughter, whatever the case may be. Yeah. Just to answer, but eliminate those things.

32:03If they could have said all of us agreed back there, all 12 of us agreed that we weren't going to convict on first degree. So that would then bar that double jeopardy would attach to that theoretically. And they wouldn't be able to try because there was, it was, it was uttered in open court. That's the thing that needs to happen. It doesn't matter what they say back in the jury room. The thing that has to be said is it has to be said in the court room. It's got to be on the record. Yes, we were all in agreement that, that first degree was going to be not guilty on that. So we were going to go, they were going to quit on the, on the first degree. And so that, and that changes everything because at that point, that brings, all right, well, then, then crews can say, all right, well, then we're going to go on second degree and, and that's it. But second degree, you can do a bench and, and, and, and, and you know, he would think about it. If it's going to be Sullivan again, but Sullivan, I think he, I think he's like on the verge

33:08of force retirement. Like, I don't think that he's, he's run his course on the bench. So depending on how long this thing takes to get the trial, I know what the murmurs about, you know, the fall, you know, I mean, like, Reddington was like, I want, I want a jury in panel next Monday. I mean, like, in the fall, we're kind of starting fall, like, right now, we're starting fall, right? So what, I mean, this, I mean, that was shocked by that idea. Like, I don't, that would be amazing. If we could get it up, does it ever happen that quick? Bobby, you've seen it. Yeah. So you've seen a hungry happen and then boom, they're up and running because everybody's already prepared basically. They got their stuff ready to go. So let's just come back to the room and play. Yeah. Well, I mean, if you're the, the commonwealth, you're retrying the case differently, right? Yeah. Like you're basically taking the approach that they took in the closing as opposed to what they did in the opening. Yeah. The time we got to the closing, they had changed their tune. They had, they had decided, okay, we're abandoning this suicide attempt was a ruse.

34:14We're admitting that it was a serious attempt. And we're also acknowledging, acknowledging that she had a mental illness or defect. We're just saying it wasn't the type that wouldn't allow her to know right from wrong and to conform her conduct to the requirements of law. Like, like, that's all we're saying. So they would try it differently, you know? So which is always in my estimation, an advantage to the commonwealth. Sure. They mean that the reddington wouldn't tweak some of his case as well, you know? But in theory, it's basically the same. They have the framework of how they should try the case. And I'm talking about the commonwealth. And you know, red would make his tweaks. Like you, you have to worry if you're reddington, you have to worry about reznik, you know? He's, he's pretty old. Yeah. And he wasn't, he was not feeling well. He was going through some medical issues where he couldn't fly. Right. That's why he, he, and you need reznik. You need that guy. Reznik is really the key to the defense in terms of when you have the commonwealth's experts,

35:19all kind of bending, bending the knee to reznik is saying, yeah, he's the authority on, you know, philosophie and on also in terms of malingering as to hallucinations. And you know, like that's the guy. You know, when you have their experts admitting that and that we've relied on things that he said, you know, that, that, that gives a lot of weight to reznik and basically builds in my estimation, reasonable doubt into the case, because you could be saying, well, all right, their experts are saying that this guy is the shit. Okay. He is the shit in terms of that particular area. So he's reasonable like that. That is, it's a plausible thing that he's saying that she was psychotic. However, we also find what the, the commonwealth's witnesses were saying was reasonable and plausible as well. Well, I'm sorry, but that's reasonable doubt. And when you have two different situations, which are plausible, that is not beyond a reasonable doubt. Right.

36:20That's literally the definition of it. So they'd have to tinker with it. I mean, they can also decide to retry on, you know, just the second degree of manslaughter, abandoning the first degree theories that have that premeditation and the, or extreme atrocity or cruelty. You know, because I, the explanation the state gave of atrocities was not what atrocities are. Like under the statute, like it was complete. Her, hers was just like, oh, this was a mother doing this. That the kids were sitting there in this nightmare watching the person who's supposed to love the most killed them. That's, that's an atrocity. That's not how the law reads in terms of, you know, falling under the, the category of extreme atrocity, which we'd need in order yet to, you know, that first degree. And then the other thing they could do, obviously, is a negotiated resolution. And this is where it gets interesting. Yeah. Yesterday I was having a pretty, pretty lengthy conversation with another person that I

37:21was doing alive with yesterday. And we were getting into this, the possibilities with a negotiated resolution because you've got to look at this like this. All right. You see the split in society. There are people that are adamant that, you know, Lindsey Clancy is a fucking monster and she needs to go down. I don't give it shit. Everybody that's supporting her is crazy. Like, what is it? Like, are we living in crazy world? And then you've got the people that are not mental illness deniers. Like, like myself and you, yes. It's a sense like kind of what it is. It's mental illness denial. That's what it is. It really is. There's no other way about it. Like, you know, when I read comments from people like, oh, you know, the mental health, the mental illness aspect was a, it was just a, like, an error. It was, yeah, that defense was, I'm like, holy shit. I'm like, these people literally, like mental illness is not a narrative. Like, I like it. It is. It would know, but that shows what the problem is.

38:24Yeah. It does. It's a people in this country that actually think that it's, it's a narrative. Yeah. It's opposed to realizing that this shit is as real as it gets and that there's people, millions of people all over the world that are suffering on a daily basis and suffering massively from whatever mental illness that they're going through and it's real. And you know, it's just, it's such a difficult case, you know, because it's that, it's the thing that I keep saying. I don't know that they'll ever be able to in panel 12 people that are on it ever. And this thing, I mean, 11 to 1 for NG. I mean, what kind of appetite does the state of man? I mean, I know that this Massachusetts likes to retry their shit. Even when they're, they, they double down, they dig in like a petulant, you know, old uncle or something that's arguing their opinion despite the rest of the family saying, bubba, you can sit here by the campfire by yourself for going inside.

39:25This is getting weird. That's Massachusetts. But are they going to do it again or do they have an appetite for that? Are they going to say, you know, this kind of makes us look stupid. Maybe we should do this off here in the, the quiet of a, a settled agreement in a judges chamber between the attorneys and, and send Lindsey off to be locked away in a mental institution, which he's been asking for the whole time. We'll just end up doing what she originally asked for and pretend it was our idea at the end of the day. Yeah. I mean, look, it's, I would pose this question to, to DA Cruz. Yeah. I will read it. And I would say, look, you know, the, the prosecution offices around this country are always championing the fact that they're, they're there representing the people, but really they're representing the victims. And, and, and Cruz was adamant about that. We're representing the victims here. We're representing, you know, Corridor, Dawson and Calend, that, that's who we're here for.

40:25And they need justice. The problem here is what does justice look like? Because for the folks that are eye for an eye, well, justice means if they have the death penalty available, which they do not en masse, that she should be fried in a situation where it's life without the possibility, then that's what she gets. And I don't care about anything else. For those folks, that's what justice looks like. For folks like myself and folks like the family of the victims, which people who actually mattered. I know. The people that were testifying on behalf of Lindsey Clancy, I don't think that they think justice looks the same thing the same way that Cruz thinks it might look. Yeah. And, and, and you know how I win that argument? Look who they testified for. Yeah. That tells you where the family is on this thing. The family who knew her best, who knows her best, who lived with her, who were there.

41:26For the people that are ignoring those people that are screaming out there, that's how you lose every argument that you were going to have with me. Because I will always have those folks to point to. So, they're the ones that this matters most to, not you. You got no stake in this. In terms of, we have a stake. In terms of a society, the people on the other side of this, our stake is, you know what? Let's change the healthcare system. Let's start acknowledging that women's mental health and postpartum is real and let's do something about it. Let's make sure that this never happens again to another child and or mother that ends her own life because she's going through it just because we don't fucking get it. Because we don't get it is not the answer. If you're not willing to listen and understand what's real and move forward on that no matter how hard it is, if that means that you have to kind of swallow this incredibly bitter pill

42:31that the fact that this woman did this to these three kids who she loved more than anything on the planet. And you have to swallow that in order to move forward to make sure it never happens again and well then that's what we have to do. Period. Or they'll just keep sailing their ship off the flat earth. So here's my question about if they work a plea deal or even if they go and try it again on a lesser charge which makes it easier for a jury to be more unanimous on this. And so say and even in this case say that she was convicted on manslaughter. But then she is there any way because I don't think so that the judge then can impose going back to Tukesbury because that's ultimately what the family wants and what the people that stand with Lindsey want and not looking for release they're looking for mental health help where she's been staying for three years in Tukesbury. And so is there any way that they negotiate for the lesser charge and a plea deal but

43:32then she goes also to Tukesbury or does she go back to general population because I think that's part of the issue that we're all having with it also is that where's a sentence going to be carried out. Well I mean it depends if she's far on guilty she goes to theoretically she goes to prison now the problem is going to be if they try her again. I'm not so sure that's going to happen. But then can I make the plea deal for the Tukesbury there? Yeah absolutely. So the obviously landing spot for a negotiated plea and this is where it got interesting in the conversation I was having yesterday. I think there exists a world in which they could say all right we're willing to we're willing to concede the point we're willing to to agree that she pleads not guilty of lack of criminal responsibility but we want to we want to try to do a set time frame. Okay now and we're saying we're going to say five years all right we're going to say

44:34that she's going to be committed in there for at least five years. If she continues not to be better if she doesn't get better if she's still you know a danger to herself or others then she stays in and if she never gets right she's in there forever. I mean which is a possibility. You know however in the event that that she does get made whole it because like there's two parts of it and I know this from speaking to a woman named Lisa Tremaine and New Jersey who has this incredible it's the only one in the country and I keep screaming from the rooftops about this woman and this the center that she has and it's specifically for post part of issues where mothers are having it they can come in they can fully disclose everything that's going on without fear of repercussion and they treat them until they're better and every single mother that comes in there walks out well and the kids are alive.

45:35It's like the places it's a miracle the places a miracle they need to have them in every if this place existed or if Lindsay was aware of it if she had googled and found it and she's like Pat I need to go to this place in Jersey these people are going to help me I guarantee you the kids are still here I guarantee it this and this woman has been fighting and fighting and fighting they have helped thousands of women thousands of women they allow the women to bring the babies with them so they're not separated and they're treated they have they have trained doctors in there they they're allowed to because the bigger problem here is the under reporting that's happening for women because they're afraid of the repercussions if I report yeah because you're dealing with government agencies government agencies take your kids away they'll they'll you'll get committed you'll lose your licensing like if she's a nurse like everything she she had what had to have been going through her brain as this

46:36is going on for four months is like I'm like I don't know how much I can tell that and that's not just Lindsay Clancy that's every single woman that goes through this shit yeah and it's because of the stigma it's like you know if you're a woman that's suffering and you're going online please get offline because when you see the ignorance that exists about people just denying that this shit is real that keeps this exactly where it is hidden in the dark allowing not allowing women to come forward with how they're absolutely feeling and being completely honest with it could you imagine a world in which Lindsay could have said this is everything I'm going through in great detail I think we're being very very different place right now if that had actually existed unfortunately that is not where we are and there seems to be half of the population very much happy with the way our system works saying we don't need that what's that going to help a lot

47:38it would help a lot your thoughts in the comments section on sub stack and YouTube we'd love for you to weigh in want more on this case and others then press subscribe now and don't miss a moment of true crime coverage from Tony Bruski and the Hidden Killers podcast