Lindsay Clancy's Jury Heard Everything And Still Can't Decide

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1:00And now, He Lock versus AGI. A Splatero AGI gives you cash for a share of your home's future value. No monthly payments. A He Lock is a traditional loan with monthly payments and strict requirements. Splatero for the win. Visit splintiro.com today and access your home's equity. Home owners! If you want to sell your house fast for all cash, stop what you are doing and listen to this because Osborne Homes wants to buy your house right now. I am Mike from Osborne Homes and I want to buy your house. Nobody buys more homes in California than Osborne. Whether it's a total fixer upper or imperfect condition, Osborne Homes is the easiest way to sell your house fast for all cash. Best of all, when you sell your house to Osborne Homes, there are zero fees and zero commissions. Plus no banks, no realtors, no repairs, and no waiting to close. We buy your house as is for all cash. Call us right now to get your free, no obligation, all cash offered. We are here and ready to buy your house 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 8000-957-3151. Call 8000-957-3151 right now. Don't wait. Sell your house to

2:02Osborne Homes and put the cash in your pocket right away. Any house, any condition, all cash right now. Just call 8000-957-3151. Cash for your house now, 8000-957-3151. This is Hidden Tillers Live with Tony Brusky and Robin Dree. Here we are, the Lindsay Clancy trial. As of our recording here, we're still with a jury that has not come back with anything very likely going to be hung. We're going to kind of tackle the conversation from that direction, but again, anything as possible here, but reading the T-Leaves, the Lindsay Clancy trial is asking the hardest question and criminal law can a mother who killed her three children, be held responsible when her own brain was the weapon used against her. Six weeks of testimony, more than 80 witnesses, psychiatric experts who look at the same woman, and some came to opposite conclusions. Now, after days and deliberations, 12 people have sent

3:07notes to Judge Sullivan indicating they are deeply split, making a hung jury look increasingly inevitable. Joining us today, Eric Fattis, defense attorney, former prosecutor to talk about what a potential hung jury would mean for Lindsay Clancy, whether this case, we get tried again, and what it tells us when the system built to deliver justice to the brink and delivering no answer at all, along with me as always, my co-host Robin Dreeck, retired FBI special agent, chief of the counterintelligence behavioral analysis program. Eric, the jury has 80 plus witnesses, or they've heard from 80 plus witnesses, 300 exhibits, days in that room, and they've already sent no saying they're struggling to reach a consensus. The judges now read them. The two-read Rod Regis charge, basically tells them no future jury is going to have better evidence than they do, and they still appear very deadlocked. I'm not honestly shocked by this. I think a lot of people have said this is going to be probably where it goes, considering the ether and the

4:14the the the temperature in the room outside. It's a good gauge of what a jury room is going to look like, but they didn't have access to social media. They didn't have the the conspiracies running wild so you know, in their heads every day like we have, are you surprised at all? What's your thoughts that we're sitting here with what looks like is going to be a hung jury? For sure, God's not a huge shocker to me, Tony. In part because of how polarizing this case has been, you know, when we talk with our family, we talk with our friends, colleagues about the case, off the earth, it's not a middle ground. It's usually people are on the extremes of one side or the other. And so the jury is kind of a microcosm for Ver society at large. And so those that polarization may be going on back there, folks that probably dug in their heels at this point, in this in this stage of the deliberations. And I think it's reasonably unlikely that they're going to change their positions. However, I have seen it before. Yeah, Eric, with that, you know, I'm just running my own thought experiments because I mean,

5:19we're all right on this one. This has been the most polarizing case we've ever colored covered. And it's it's pretty profound about how like you said, dug in people are on this. I can't imagine, especially with the coverage that's going on, you know, the jury's supposed to sequester themselves and not pay attention. Hard to imagine they have, but in any event, so say it goes to retrial and they try to sit another jury. It's hard to imagine a scenario where it doesn't happen again. So in my mind, and this is my question to you, is do you think they're going to press more for some sort of plea deal to avoid what they probably see as inevitable? And not just in this case, but is that generally what happens in cases where it gets this kind of severe notoriety or maybe this is a landmark case for just because it's risen to this level? Robin, it's not uncommon at all for the attorneys, even during trial, even during deliberations to be thinking about, hey, is there some sort of resolution that we might be able to come to? Because both sides have tremendous exposure. If Lindsay Clancy is convicted, she goes to prison

6:22probably for the rest of her life. If the prosecution loses, that's a tremendous black eye when you have three dead kids and you didn't do a great job. And so could both sides sort of come to the table and be like, hey, is there a way that we can sort of both get out of this relatively unscathed with some plea to a lesser whatever? Those discussions happen frequently during trial and even during deliberations. Are you seeing any sort of leakage from either side of what you think either side would agree to? Again, I know it's pure conjecture. You're an armchair, a quarterback sitting back in this, but I'm just curious about what would either side see as a compromise when do you think from that point of view? It's a little hard to say, the defense lodged what's called a lesser non-included charge that they required the court required, the charge to be added of manslaughter. That's less than first-degree murder. It's less than second-degree murder. It's still curious significant present time, but something that would give Lindsey Clancy a lot of life on the outside after this. And so that's a possibility. Let's talk about those possibilities and logistically

7:28what that looks like if they come back deadlocked here. And just so we can have it on the record of understanding where their options are in this moment in time. Is there are there any roads, I should say, of which the jury can travel being deadlocked, where this doesn't then get drug out through more hearings and a bench trial where both sides are able to come to the table relatively quickly and have some sort of settlement agreed to as to the outcome of this or does a deadlocked jury in this case mean, okay, we may get to some other resolution, but it means either a bench trial, new hearings that are going to further extend this month's possibly years down the road. Or is there something where in the container of this current trial and situation, even with a deadlock

8:29jury, both sides with the judge are able to come to some sort of a resolution? Does that exist? It could potentially exist. So the jury right now is deadlocked. If the judge determines that there's a hung jury meaning they're not going to reach unanimous decision, that's a mistrial. What that means is the prosecution can seek to set a new trial date and we can start all over again. Now in the dependency of that new trial during that hearing, certainly if I'm defense, I'm going to the prosecutor and I'm saying, hey, look, you guys gave it your best job. You guys said, any witnesses, you had hundreds of exhibits this last two weeks and weeks and weeks. You gave it your best job. You guys tried hard, but you couldn't convince a jury. There is no indication that you're going to get a different outcome if we do this again. So how about having her plead to something and those discussions can take place while the discretariat is deciding how they might want to react next if there is a hung jury? Yeah, do you see if they were to retry it,

9:30as the prosecutors are thinking about retrying it? I mean, literally what difference could they do differently because they're new testimony they could bring in? I can't imagine new experts because again, part of the argument against the prosecution was the time removed from the interviews of Lindsay to the actual crime itself of killing her kids and if they brought in more, there'd be even more time removed from there. So it's not like they're going to bring in new experts that have more depth of field necessarily because again, experts seem to cancel each other out. The people standing with Lindsay saying that yes, this is a break from who she was. I don't see that shifting majorly in any way. So I guess unless, I mean, what other new road could they go down would be attacking the investigation as we've seen so many of the wonderful people in the TikTokverse saying that they did a horrendous job of? I mean, literally what more could they do than they've already done? That's the thing, Robin, is basically speaking the facts or the facts. Now they could try to do some additional investigation. They could try to find additional ways to attack the

10:32credibility of defense experts and things like that. But by and large, the evidence isn't changing, evidence is what it is. And so there's not going to be some kind of rabbit they could pull out of their hat during this second trial that I think would substantially change things. I just don't, I can't see that. And one more question on that. And again, Sleegal side, I don't know, nearly as well as you obviously. So say the prosecutors want to retry it because those two seem like, I want her, no matter what. Can the judges side where they get to retry it? And I'm like, who makes that final decision on how to move forward with this case? That shows how much power a prosecutor can have. The decision whether to seek a second trial after a hunk jury is really solely within the discretion of the prosecutor. And if the prosecutor wanted to move forward, the judge would not have the legal authority to be like, I don't think that's a good idea. And I don't like this case. I don't think you're going to win. None of those things would be in effect. And the prosecutor would have the sole decision made. Is there a limit about how many times

11:34it can retry a case? I don't know that there is a specific number that the law talks about. However, there are things, there are legal grounds like a speedy trial. They have a speedy trial right. They have a due process right to not have a harassing prosecution. And maybe after the second one, they could argue, hey, this is just harassment at this point. This is vexatious. And so there are kind of ways to limit the number of retries. Yeah. Thanks. Yeah. What sort of appetite does a prosecutor typically have after a case like this? We saw Karen Reed got retried and we know how that went. Also a Massachusetts case. When you have essentially the same set of facts, you're going to have essentially the same pool of people that you're going to be picking in for them. So your odds of having a few holdouts here or there and ending with the same sort of jury

12:35extremely high. I mean, the appetite is got to be considered. But even beyond that, because obviously they can redo it if they so have the appetite. But the defendant herself, Lindsey Clancy, she could ask for a bench trial. Could they not? And if you were Reddington, having gone through this once, knowing the state of your client, do you go down that road? So a few things. My understanding is that under Massachusetts law, if there is a first-degree murder charge, that has to go to a jury. You're right. Now, if it's a lesser net now, for example, if the jury came back not guilty on first-degree murder, but hung on manslaughter or something, my understanding is that a manslaughter charge could go to only a judge. That's risky on the defense side because when you're talking about a jury, you got 12 people. You need to convince at least one of them to vote not guilty. And then you get at least a hung jury if you convince all of them you win. But when you have a judge, you only have one person, not 12, who you got a hope

13:42sides with side with you. And so the judge part is a little bit more risky just in terms of the numbers game and how juries come down in terms of hung juries. A judge is never going to be, it's never going to have a hung jury because it's one person. Is would judge Sullivan be the guy that did it or would they reassign a new judge to it? Yeah, that's a good question. I'm not entirely sure. I think it'd be most appropriate to get a second judge because the first judge would be privy to all of the evidence from the first trial, but the decision can be made on the evidence of the first trial. It's going to be made on the evidence of the second trial. And there'd be a concern that the judges' mind might go back to the first trial. I think they did a new judge. Yeah, that's why it's curious just because Sullivan seemed to really his objections. I haven't looked up the stats on it. It's mine. I got to do that one is for the objections that were made, was he more like how did he lean on his objections and what the he sustained and didn't sustain and the most just curious.

14:48It's a good thing. We got the answer here, everybody. It's a fact. It's a scummy government MK Ultra Mind Control that made Prozac for this reason and the Mind Control program. Come on people, evil CIA government. Well, I'm glad all questions have been answered. We're good. We're good. We're good. We're going forward. The brain train I've had in the last week has just been profound. We're going to tell about this before the show, Eric. When you do assessments of cases and my case, human beings, it requires a massive amount of empathy, which doesn't, isn't sympathy. It's empathy to understand the viewpoint from someone else from their shoes, which is very defense oriented as well, because you have to understand your client, you have to understand the pros. It's huge understanding, which means you typically, just by the nature of who you are, you listen to all these really, stupid things that try to figure out where they're coming from. It just occupies massive brain space.

15:50I just got to shut this shit down. It's killing me. It's been a mental workout on this case. One more in this lane before we talk about the craze person who showed up with the camera. If you're a mother watching every day of this looking for an answer, this means a lot to a lot of people. What are you supposed to take away if the jury walks out without a verdict here? I mean, there's so much that seems to be writing on the verdict here in terms of understanding of mental health of women in post-partum situations. Is this really more so, not necessarily, an indictment of the medical system, but of our society and an understanding of this sort of world if we're not able to come back with an answer either way? No, one thing I could say, for sure, in my opinion, is that you would see more of these types of

16:54defenses, especially with mothers who may have been going through a post-partum process, and we're led to commit a crime, especially if it's killing their children. You are going to see this type of defense much more regularly, and you're going to see experts popping up who support this kind of a defense. And so I think from a legalistic standpoint, we can sort of pin down what that effect might look like from a societal or moral standpoint. Gosh, that one is a big question. That is tough to tackle. I don't know. If three FAMOM kills, there are three kids. Should they be able to get off some sort of hospitalization? It's only in the state, too, because most of the states aren't as, I mean, the education on what the laws are when it comes to not guilty by reason of sanity or not criminally responsible, there's huge differences between states. Massive, I mean, if this would happen in one of the four that don't even have this as a possibility of

17:59defense, then we wouldn't even be talking about this. And so that's what it's also pretty interesting about this and where this occurred. And it's just a pretty rough. I feel like it's a false compare. I've seen so many, I just did a monologue about this this morning, is another Lindsay Clancy. I keep saying that in headlines. When there's basically a mother and dead children, the headline becomes it's another Lindsay Clancy. And I think that's so insanely disingenuous, because it's not, this is such a unique case. Post-partum psychosis is statistically is a rare thing. I do wonder if it is more prevalent than we actually know statistically. But when we had, what was it? Andrea Yates. Is that the one from way back? That a lot of the comparisons going on here? People like, well, Lindsay Clancy is going to make all these women run and enclaim this. We didn't see a giant uptake after Andrea Yates. No, it's not. That didn't change the landscape. Neither is this going to change the landscape. And when everyone keeps jumping onto this,

19:00oh, this is going to start the precedent of more mothers doing this. No, it's not. I mean, everybody's saying it's another Lindsay Clancy, just as they did for the last 20 years, another Andrea Yates. And you look at the case details and it's like, no, these are really nothing. And here's why it won't be and hasn't been before. And that's why this one's so unique. So, let's again, we always say a lot of people say any way that the experts cancel themselves out, even though they agree in a lot of areas with her mental health issues, just their definitions of what the individual psychologists are saying was criminal responsible is their own context from the laws in their own states as well. So that's why it's a little bit of a movement target. They all agreed on a lot of things, not all of them on the postpartum psychotic spot of it, but all the mental health issues, yes. And so here's what's extremely unique in this case. It's removed the doctors and their opinions and their analysis and all that. The huge difference is her and her family, the support network around her that gives all the other data points for the jury to use

20:04in their deliberation. In other words, all these other cases where people is going to be a lot more Lindsay Clancy's. Really? Have you seen this many people on any other case that stood by the defendant that actually were part of the family that lost their kids and said we stand by her. She's not in this wasn't in her right mind. There's something wrong here. Co-workers, family, loved ones, ex-husbands, all of them are saying the exact same thing. That's what makes this one extremely unique because ask you do your own thought experiment. If you come from, if you're one of these rare people comes from a very, very healthy family. It's my wife said to me the other day, if you had done this to our kids, there's no way in living hell I would have thought that was you. Something had to be going wrong in your life. Some psychotic break or something because that is not you. That's what makes this one unique. Yeah, I agree. Your thoughts in the comments section on sub-stack in YouTube is we continue to break down the Lindsay Clancy trial. Todd, I know you're watching the background. If we have anything that breaks during this, let us know. I know that

21:08jury is still out as of right now, but if we need to jump into anything, we can. Ta-da! In-game show fashion, the response. Want more on this case and others? Then press subscribe now, and don't miss a moment of true crime coverage from Tony Brusky and the Hidden Killers podcast. And now, He Lock vs. AGI. A splotero AGI gives you cash for a share of your home's future value. No monthly payments. A He Lock is a traditional loan with monthly payments and strict requirements. Splotero for the win. Visit splint.io.com today and access your home's equity. Home owners, if you want to sell your house fast for all cash, stop what you are doing and listen to this because Osborne Homes wants to buy your house right now. I am Mike from Osborne Homes and I want to buy your house. Nobody buys more homes in California than Osborne. Whether it's a total fixer upper or in perfect condition, Osborne Homes is the easiest way to sell your house fast for all cash. Best of all, when you sell your house to Osborne Homes, there are zero fees and zero commissions. Plus no banks, no realtors, no repairs, and no

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25:12and most importantly, no monthly payments. Oh, I like that one. The no payments one. Of course, you're smart. And check this out. A HILOC has strict income and credit requirements. A Splatero HCI requires only a 500 minimum credit score and no income requirement. So much better. It seems like the only reason to confuse them is that they both start with H. Just remember Splatero. HCI means Splatero. Visit spli.itiro.com today and access your home's equity. No monthly payments, just cash in hand. Splatero. Home owners! If you want to sell your house fast for all cash, stop what you are doing and listen to this because Osborne Homes wants to buy your house right now. I am Mike from Osborne Homes and I want to buy your house. Nobody buys more homes in California than Osborne. Whether it's a total fixer upper or in perfect condition, Osborne Homes is the easiest way to sell your house fast for all cash. Best of all, when you sell your house to Osborne Homes, there are zero fees and zero commissions. Plus no banks, no realtors, no repairs, and no waiting to close. We buy your house

26:14as is for all cash. Call us right now to get your free, no obligation, all cash offer. We are here and ready to buy your house 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 8000-957-3151. Call 8000-957-3151 right now. Don't wait! Sell your house to Osborne Homes and put the cash in your pocket right away. Any house, any condition, all cash right now. Just call 8000-957-3151. Cash for your house now, 8000-957-3151. And now, He Lock vs. AGI. A Splatero AGI gives you cash for a share of your home's future value. No monthly payments. A He Lock is a traditional loan with monthly payments and strict requirements. Splatero for the win! Visit splint.com today and access your home's equity. Home owners! If you want to sell your house fast for all cash, stop what you are doing and listen to this because Osborne Homes wants to buy your house right now. I am Mike from Osborne Homes and I want to buy your house. Nobody buys more homes in California than Osborne. Whether it's a total fixer upper or imperfect condition, Osborne Homes is the

27:18easiest way to sell your house fast for all cash. Best of all, when you sell your house to Osborne Homes, there are zero fees and zero commissions. Plus no banks, no realtors, no repairs, and no waiting to close. We buy your house as is for all cash. Call us right now to get your free, no obligation, all cash offer. We are here and ready to buy your house 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 8000-957-3151. Call 8000-957-3151 right now. Don't wait! Sell your house to Osborne Homes and put the cash in your pocket right away. Any house, any condition, all cash right now. Just call 8000-957-3151. Cash for your house now, 8000-957-3151. And now, He Lock vs. AGI. A Splatero AGI gives you cash for a share of your home's future value. No monthly payments. A He Lock is a traditional loan with monthly payments and strict requirements. Splatero for the win. Visit splint.io.com today and access your home's equity. Home owners, if you want to sell your

28:18house fast for all cash, stop what you are doing and listen to this because Osborne Homes wants to buy your house right now. I am Mike from Osborne Homes and I want to buy your house. Nobody buys more homes in California than Osborne. Whether it's a total fixer upper or imperfect condition, Osborne Homes is the easiest way to sell your house fast for all cash. Best of all, when you sell your house to Osborne Homes, there are zero fees and zero commissions. Plus no banks, no realtors, no repairs, and no waiting to close. We buy your house as is for all cash. Call us right now to get your free, no obligation, all cash offered. We are here and ready to buy your house 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 8000-957-3151. Call 8000-957-3151 right now. Don't wait! Sell your house to Osborne Homes and put the cash in your pocket right away. Any house, any condition, all cash right now. Just call 8000-957-3151. Cash for your house now. 8000-957-3151. When it comes to accessing your home's value, what you don't know might be the only thing

29:21standing in your way. I don't understand. Exactly. An HEI from Splatero will give you a lump sum of cash upfront in exchange for a share of your home's future value. An HEI? What's the difference between that and a HEI? Everything that matters. A HEI is alone with variable interest rates that often have DTI requirements and monthly payments. With a Splatero HEI, there is no DTI requirement, and most importantly, no monthly payments. Oh, I like that one. The no payments one. Of course, you're smart. And check this out. A HEI has strict income and credit requirements. A Splatero HEI requires only a 500-minimum credit score and no income requirement. So much better. It seems like the only reason to confuse them is that they both start with H. Just remember Splatero. HEI means Splatero. Visit spli.itiro.com today and access your home's equity. No monthly payments, just cash in hand. Splatero. Homeowners! If you want to sell your house fast for all cash, stop what you are doing and listen

30:22to this because Osborne Homes wants to buy your house right now. I am Mike from Osborne Homes and I want to buy your house. Nobody buys more homes in California than Osborne. Whether it's a total fixer upper or in perfect condition, Osborne Homes is the easiest way to sell your house fast for all cash. Best of all, when you sell your house to Osborne Homes, there are zero fees and zero commissions. Plus no banks, no realtors, no repairs, and no waiting to close. We buy your house as is for all cash. Call us right now to get your free, no obligation, all cash offer. We are here and ready to buy your house 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 8000-957-3151. Call 8000-957-3151 right now. Don't wait. Sell your house to Osborne Homes and put the cash in your pocket right away. Any house, any condition, all cash right now. Just call 8000-957-3151. Cash for your house now, 8000-957-3151. And now, He Lock vs. AGI. A Splatero AGI gives you cash for a share of your homes' future value.

31:25No monthly payments. A He Lock is a traditional loan with monthly payments and strict requirements. Splatero for the win. Visit splint.io.com today and access your homes equity. Homeowners! If you want to sell your house fast for all cash, stop what you are doing and listen to this because Osborne Homes wants to buy your house right now. I am Mike from Osborne Homes and I want to buy your house. Nobody buys more homes in California than Osborne. Whether it's a total fixer upper or in perfect condition, Osborne Homes is the easiest way to sell your house fast for all cash. Best of all, when you sell your house to Osborne Homes, there are zero fees and zero commissions. Plus no banks, no realtors, no repairs, and no waiting to close. We buy your house as is for all cash. Call us right now to get your free, no obligation, all cash offered. We are here and ready to buy your house 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 8000-957-3151. Call 8000-957-3151 right now. Don't wait! Sell your house to Osborne Homes and put the cash in your pocket right away. Any house, any condition, all cash right now. Just call 8000-957-3151.

32:30Cash for your house now, 8000-957-3151.