Lindy West’s Memoir Adult Braces (with Guy Branum)

Fiscally responsible. Financial geniuses. Monetary magicians. These are things people say about

drivers who switch their car insurance to progressive and save hundreds. Because progressive offers

discounts for paying in full, owning a home, and more. Plus, you can count on their great

customer service to help when you need it so your dollar goes a long way. Visit progressive.com

to see if you could save on car insurance. Progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates,

potential savings will vary, not available in all states or situations. Spring styles are at

Nordstrom Rack stores now, and there are up to 60% off. Stock up and save on rag and bone,

made well. Vince, All Saints, and more of your favorites. Why do we rock? For the hottest

still, there's so many good brands. Join the Nordy Club to unlock exclusive discounts,

shop new arrivals first, and more. Plus, buy online and pick up at your favorite rack store for free.

Great brands, great prices. That's why you rack.

Welcome to Glamrs Trash. This is a podcast that book clips viral articles, celebrity memoirs,

and trashy discourse to elevate your life. I'm your host, Chelsea Devantes. I'm a TV writer,

comedian, filmmaker, author, and sometimes I'm in stuff too. And today, we are book clubbing Lindy

West's new memoir titled Adult Braces, which comes out the exact day this episode is dropping,

March 10th, 2026. It is very hot off the presses. Now, Lindy is famous for many things. Lindy is the

author of the New York Times best-selling memoir, Shrill. Notes from a loud woman, which then became

the TV show Shrill on Hulu, which ran for three seasons, starring 80 Bryant. Lindy has written

for so many publications, but wow, did I really know her from Jezebel? She was speaking political

and comedic commentary about women for women in the early 2010s. And I was hooked. I was up in those

comments. I loved so much of her writing. She spoke out for abortion rights and went on the daily

show. And she was just a mouthpiece for a lot of really important thoughts. And so Lindy also went

through extreme trolling. And I remember a phase when she would reply to them and dunk on every

troll. Remember that phase on Twitter? There was this horrible, horrible thing where someone posed

as Lindy's actual deceased father and trolled her on Twitter. And Lindy later did an episode on

this American life where they spoke to the man behind that account and why he had done that.

So she's taken so many risks in her career. She has a podcast out. She's been on this podcast.

She covered our Bad Vegan episode about Sarma. So Lindy is a friend, but I could not stay away

from this memoir. I had to cover it on this podcast. Also, we're going to chat with Lindy about

this memoir. It's for subscribers only. So go sign up on Patreon or Apple podcast subscriptions

to get that interview, which is going to come out tomorrow. So if you're listening to this episode

and you have a question and you're listening to it immediately, drop a question in the Patreon

or on my Instagram because there'll be a little gap before I interview her and I can ask her

some questions. Now, before I bring my guest on, I want to do a thorough recap of this book because

it is a memoir and it has a narrative arc, but it's also in essays. And my guest and I spoke

about a ton of different topics. And so I just want to give the clear recap before we dive into

all of it so that you can really enjoy it. So adult braces begins when Lindy gets adult braces.

And most heartbreaking to me is that they're like for health. They're not cosmetic. So it's for

no cosmetic reason. And she has to wear these adult braces just like fix her jaw tension.

And so she's got these braces on. And she's in a period in her life that's not going well.

It's post shrill which we talk about in the episode. It's this crazy Hollywood chapter in her life

that kind of explodes or maybe just it deteriorates. We will get into it. But post that time in her

life, she is feeling like she has lost her desire in life. And she talks about not wanting to shower

and not having the energy and not wanting to go on hikes with her husband or not be as sexual.

And one day, she discovers that her husband, Aham, is kissing another woman. And that woman is

named Roya. And we will get into how Lindy had agreed to be in a polyamorous relationship with Aham.

However, it all kind of took place behind the scenes as per what they discussed, which we'll get

into later. So a lot of time goes by and this relationship continues with Aham and Roya. And

Lindy decides one day she is going to get in a van. She's going to rent a van that she calls

Ba and she's going to drive it across the country by herself and take a solo trip to Kokomo, Florida

from the song, you know, Inana Kokomo. And that's when she finds out Kokomo doesn't exist. It is not

a real place, which is also a metaphor in this book, looking for something that maybe doesn't exist.

So she road trips across the country to Florida and back. She stays with friends. She's going on this

travel journey. But as she does, she's flashing us back to her relationship with Aham, other parts

of her life and how they got to this point where he is polyamorous and she has to decide what she's

going to do if she's going to stay in the marriage, if she's going to join or whatnot. And it's

in the book, but it's also out there in life that Lindy ends up in a throttle in a polyamorous

marriage with Aham and Roya. And that's where she is now and that is the book she's written of. How

she gets there. And so that's the journey we're going to get into. The book is also about so much

more, but let me bring on my guest so that we can discuss. My guest today is Guy Brannum. Guy is an

Emmy and Golden Globe award-winning writer and comedian. He's a writer and producer for Hax and

has written for the other two, the Mindy Project and a League of Their Own. As an actor, Guy has

appeared on Platonic on Apple TV and in the film's Bros and No Strings Attached. His memoir, My Life

as a Goddess, was named one of the best books of the year by NPR. Guy, hello, welcome to the

podcast. Now Lindy requested you specifically to be the guest for this book. Do you feel highly

honored? I do. I do. It's weird to read a book where you were like on the edges of it, like

knowing that these things were going on in your friend's life, but not knowing sort of what the

internal experiences are. But more than that, Lindy did ask me twice to read her Hollywood chapter.

And then I didn't. And there's nothing like looking at a book and being like, oh, you could be

in those acknowledgments if you had just done the work. Wait, that's amazing. The Hollywood

chapter is my favorite chapter. Now you've read it since, I assume? Yes. Okay. Was she asking you to

read it? Because it was like probably pretty nerve-wracking? Well, yeah. I think there's always

the question, which I went through when I wrote a book myself, was like, what's the balance between

being honest about your own experience and also not burning bridges with people that you have

professional relationships with and not sounding whiny or self-indulgent or whatever. And I think

just because Lindy is somebody who is created a show and written on a show, but also lives in Seattle

and isn't as just sort of like in the TV writing world as much as I am was sort of looking to me

as a friend to be like telling me that this is okay. And you said no bitch. As a lazy person,

was like, I have other things today. You were like, I'm sure it's great. And it is great. So it is.

Okay. So tell me overall, just your overall takeaway, having written a memoir yourself,

you know Hollywood inside it out. What is your big takeaway on Lindy's book? Well, I mean,

it's fun to be reminded that your friend is a good writer. Yes. And always horrible if you get

the opposite reminder and you read my book. Lindy is somebody who is written about gender and

written about bodies and written about culture for such a long time that usually has done it

through essays and analysis. And there's always been an element of autobiography in there. Like

her own story has always been very present. But the way that this managed to take a very specific

story and turn into something that allowed me to understand conceptually the way that gender

and bodies and desire, like interact in our society, in our view of ourselves, was so

like specific and universal in a way that was really beautiful. And there's some things are nice

about the fact that like she writes this book that is so full of just like little almost like

Dave Barryish sort of like little adventures. But then just smack you in the face with one line

that just sort of encapsulates a shift in her worldview that helps you shift your worldview

was really really great and really really powerful. This is a deceptively good book, you know? Yes,

okay, go with me on this. This book is the e-pray love of our generation.

Okay, we're going to take a quick break right now and we'll be right back.

Things have been wild schedule wise over here and I've been starting my day by

rolling out of bed. And then the one thing I do before I leave the house is I slick them browse back

and then I use thrives brilliant eye brightener. I just kind of roll it all around my eyes. It's an

eyeshadow, but it's a highlighter and it's really been helping my daily look. I also love thrives

mascara because it does not flake. It has a different quality to the texture of it than other

mascaras. You'll notice at the moment you put it on. It stays on all day and it is very lengthening.

So I love it. I also love this company because with every purchase they donate to causes that

really make a difference and domestic violence is one of them with over 150 million in product

and cash donations to 600 plus giving partners. Your purchase directly feels real impact and

that is beauty with purpose. So I love the causes that they support so I love supporting thrive.

Amplify your spring look with thrive cosmetics. Go to thrivecosmetics.com slash glamorous for

an exclusive offer of 20% off your first order. That's thrive cosmetics. C-A-U-S-E-M-E-T-I-C-S.

.com slash glamorous. I have been wearing my three pairs of pants from Quince constantly on the

rig. I've got black, navy and brown. I'm tall so I love that I could get a long inseam. They also

have short inseams available. Quince's goods are quality first. They make high quality wardrobe

staples using premium fabrics like 100% European linen, 100% silk and organic cotton poplin.

I have Quince duvet covers. I have three different Quince blankets. I have Quince billows. I love

Quince. You can get so many quality pieces all at once and my mom is a huge fan. I have been getting

her high quality cashmere but on a budget every year for her birthday. Quince clothing is consistently

rated 4.525 stars by thousands of customers. Real people wearing these pieces every day and

actually loving them. Myself included. Stop waiting to build the wardrobe you actually want.

Go to quince.com slash glamorous for free shipping and 365 day returns. That's a full year to wear

it and love it. And you will. Now available in Canada too. Don't keep settling for clothes that

don't last. Go to quince q-u-i-n-c-e.com slash glamorous for free shipping and 365 day returns.

Quince.com slash glamorous. I have not seen the sun a lot lately. Not great. I have been working

inside film studios and podcast studios kind of every second of the day for a month. So my skin

has been suffering except ritual high Sarah's skin supplement has been saving me.

It is a clinically proven way to support skin hydration with science-backed benefits like reducing

wrinkles and improving skin smoothness. It is very important to me that products like this contain

high quality, clean ingredients, and all of rituals products are just that all of their products

are vegan, GMO-free, and tested for heavy metals and common allergens. Your skin always starts

below the surface and rituals high Sarah features clinically studied key ingredients to help support

moisturize skin that glows. In a clinical study, high Sarah led to a 2.9 increase in facial skin

smoothness within 90 days as compared to a placebo. And subjects also reported an improvement in

skin elasticity, glow, and radiance in 90 days. Start high Sarah to support your glow without

compromising on clean science. For a limited time, save 25% on your first month at ritual.com

slash glamorous. That's ritual.com slash glamorous for 25% off your first month.

Okay, welcome back. Let's continue the conversation.

I'm saying this in the positive way of like Elizabeth Gilbert should have written this given how

Elizabeth Gilbert's life ended up in a queer relationship. I think she meant to write the book

where instead of like going to India to do yoga, she got in like a dirty old van,

drove across the country as Lindy did, and like really looked herself in the face. Lindy

really deconstructs how to feel love if she feels loved and how she wants to be loved,

but is also just like in a van like camping versus like some, I don't know,

sometimes I feel like travel books really gross me out. Where they're like, then I went to the

steps of the bridge of the water near Peri, and I'm like, I don't care. Well, and it's interesting

because they're there can be particularly pretty love this very strong element of like

colonialism in this idea of like locations having meaning and like the India is spirituality.

Italy is pasta and going up a gene size. Yes, and Indonesia is only the good touristy parts,

and that's for fucking. And that's for fucking a hot man who's actually from Brazil.

Right, one of the things that was so interesting about this, I'm again, it's that weird sort of like,

I know Lindy, I in a series of dinners over the course of several years have heard about

this journey. And so why was I surprised that I got two or three chapters into this book,

and then I was like, oh wait, this is a mom calm. Oh wait, this is an unexpected neat cue. This is

the story of somebody finding a love that's going to change her, but like in such like interesting

different terms with her off on this journey of her own, I really love the way she manages to both

use Moby Dick as a reference and a set of images about going into the danger of the unknown,

while at the same time having the story feel rooted and real, and then I hung out with Samantha

Irby. One of the things I think is again, this is a deceptively good book is in her hanging out

with Samantha's friend Jesse in her having this really important spiritual moment with her

cousin's friend Rainbow. There's this beautiful way that she builds this structure of the relationship

on the other side of the relationship with these other people to keep telling this story of who

Roya is to her and how she is able to like find and understand this relationship. Yeah, yeah, you're

right. And also this could be a screenplay in a second the way the book is structured of that

road trip, the flashback to the relationships, how they got here as that current story is

progressing. Okay, I want to read some of page 16. I was an hour into recording the audiobook of

The Witches Are Coming in my second collection of essays when I got a message from a stranger,

a fan, how humiliating, informing me that they had seen my husband kissing a woman who was not

me at a bar. I stepped outside, pressed my body, gets the hot car and called a ham. He was silent

for a long time. Then he said, I think maybe we want different things. And then she tells the

story about how when her and a ham were first together, they broke up and got back together and

he said, if we get back together, there is one thing that is a non-negotiable, which is that I am

polyamorous. And she was like, I thought of it as a hypothetical, like maybe he'll be polyamorous

one day, but not if I'm a good enough wife. And that they basically set up these rules

that she would never know about it. He was never to say anything to her about it. And so she

said she set up this situation where if she was ever going to find out about it, it was going to

look like her husband was cheating on her and a fan would tell her about it because they'd never

been open about this agreement they made years ago. I imagine being her friend knowing all of this,

it was not a surprise, but even me, I knew how this story ended and I was still

riveted by it. Like, I knew they were all in a polyamorous relationship, but the way the

book is written, I feel like how they end up here and how Lindy ends up here is what makes the book

so exciting. Yeah, so much of it is this journey of pulling yourself out of your expectations

for a relationship, your expectations of gender, her expectations of womanhood. She does such a

good job of analyzing the ways that she has clung to some of this stuff because she doesn't

feel like she fits into the world's expectations of a woman and that makes a lot of sense for me

as like a gay man with a body that we don't like normally associate with like what normal or regular

or lovable or whatever is supposed to look like. One of the things I think is really interesting

about particularly the first half of this book is Lindy kind of contemplating the weight on her

shoulders of having written shrill and having created the TV show shrill and what she put out into

the world about why her life was a success and who she was trying to be and then trying to live

in like a journey with her body and a journey with her relationship that didn't necessarily fit

into what people wanted or expected out of her. Yeah, that was some of my favorite parts of the book.

The book is just as much about body image as it is about gender as you said as it is about this

actual just personal relationship she's going through. She's talking about how she is a body

positivity activist and she's known for like being successful and having love and loving her body.

Therefore she doesn't know how to seek help when she wants to seek help with her relationship with

food and she's writing about like M.I. betraying myself and my betraying people if I go to a therapist

and say I think I'm having a disordered relationship with food and she writes this therapist

like a long email about how she's like I think I need help but also like I'm really known in this

space for helping people so I feel bad even asking you for help and the therapist writes back yes

your work has really inspired me and how I help people heal their relationships with their body

and Lindy was like oh no I'm leading the charge here. Right she's this really beautiful image

about realizing that like wild E. Coyote you aren't rooted to anything because the person you're

looking to for guidance has looked to you for guidance and I think in that moment gives us a sense

of her sense of failure of powerlessness at that moment but also I think in the rest of the book

really undercuts that and shows you that this was a beautiful relationship and that the mutual

learning that went on between her and this nutritionist has been mutually beneficial for me one

of the things that was like best about this book is towards the end where she really sort of acknowledges

having a body means having desire and when you have been alienated from your body when you've

been told that your desires are all dangerous your desires are all creating your failed body

you don't know how to have those things in balance and it really is like a book about the relationship

between self body and desire that is is really fun because she like yeah I mean that's the thing

about Lindy is like she's not gonna stop having fun yes oh yeah which I mean yeah this book is

so fun which again goes back to what we're gonna keep saying over and over again which is like it's

so deep though this book is like it has lines that put you on the floor even though I was also

laughing out loud I thought one of the interesting things that her nutritionist said to her is like

the only way she'd gone to people being like hey think I'm having an unhealthy relationship with

food and they'd been like get wagovi like get ozampic get whatever and she goes to this woman and

you know is diagnosed with an eating disorder and she says the only way to heal an eating disorder

is through eating yeah I thought that was incredible I feel like that's not put out there of like

it's always told like stop desiring stop eating stop doing this limit this go smaller versus like

that's the opposite of what you need well I mean the answer to fatness is you shouldn't be you shouldn't

be you shouldn't be occupying that much space you shouldn't be eating if you just less if you just

stopped and it doesn't acknowledge the fact that like you still have to lead a life you still

have to be a human being you know you want to characterize this thing as an addiction but it's also

something that we have to do to exist except for I did meet this one nutritionist outside of a

two-star Michelin restaurant in France who informed me that we do receive all the energy that we

need from the sun and that we could like oh wow yes like it was like three people who had just met at

like a holistic nutrition convention and one of them was I believe a registered veterinarian

I think the man who was telling me that the sun could provide me with everything was a medical

doctor though that's just so soothing to hear but like and the the thing that is like

interesting is for somebody who's reading Lindy West books and stuff you want to imagine

that she's the person who has it figured out who has that answer and that she's not somebody who

is still having to fist fight with a couple of doctors before she is able to get medical care

I think there's something like I think everyone reading it is a little bit feeling like Lindy

feeling like Wiley Coyote when you realize even these people who are supposed to have it figured out

don't because this is uncharted territory because this is you know brown murky sea water and we

don't know where we should be swimming yeah I agree you know it's this is going to be an odd

comparison but it reminded me a lot of reading shares first memoir which is not the memoir that

just came out years ago share wrote a book and in it she talked about how humiliated she felt in

Hollywood and how when she was in her very first movie that Mike Nichols directed and share came

up at the end with no last name which was crazy for the time the people like laughed at her right

and that it was humiliating or when she did those hair commercials for her friends and everyone

started making fun of her and it was so odd to read because you just think of share as everything

I mean the person who blew the doors open and she suffered so much and that movie is silk wood

for which she receives an academy award nomination you know but that there was so much pain

and stress and humiliation she was embarrassed and she felt bad about herself and you just don't

think of those things going hands in hand with the woman you look up to the most and I think of

that with Lindy like I've I mean I can find emails I sent Lindy like in 2014 because I loved

her writing on Jezebel and I was like well you check out my feminist web series I think you're

amazing and the way she would go on the daily show then they break things down I've just been so

and off her you know first of all as you like it has a great line where Rosalind is complaining about

how much something hurt in her cousin Celia says if you don't walk on the path you're gonna get

burrs in your skirts and then Rosalind is like I could deal with them being in my skirts but these

burrs are in my heart and you know when you're doing the stuff that you're not supposed to do pain

comes with it and the thing about Lindy and what she does you know and I think we've all learned so

much from the last 15 years of internet discourse and how comfortable people are telling women

that they are useless is that Lindy has to go through a lot of criticism like a lot of women

in public discourse have to go through a ridiculous amount of criticism and I think particularly

because she is a fat woman there is this expectation that she can just handle it like she is

humorless feminist and all of this is just supposed to bounce off of her but you know you do hear

and register all of these criticisms and I think like trying to keep going in the right direction

when you're always being shoved all the time is hard yeah oh that was so beautifully said trying

to go in the right direction when you're always being shoved which has been because Lindy's been so

ahead of her time her whole career she's gone through so much so I want to read this paragraph

on page 77 and then I want to talk about the Hollywood chapter because okay also working in Hollywood

I think I'm relying every single line in that chapter but she wrote this she said in the years of

therapy since I've come to understand that Aham resented how much I'd let myself deteriorate

not how I looked but my life force as though participating in our marriage and our future

was no priority for me at all he wanted to live life with me not just watch me sink into depression

until I died but at the time the only framework I had to understand this dynamic was the one I'd

been indoctrinated into I had gotten fatter and he hated me for it which that part of the book

was I felt unbelievable because she had to deconstruct that she'd been taught

these things that make you bad in a way that she couldn't even look at her own relationship

in the real ways it existed because she was so stuck in this thing society had forced upon her

you which is like you've gotten fatter therefore your husband is going to be polyamorous

which was not what he was presenting to her right and there's something really interesting about

her also having to divorce herself from the counter hegemonic stories that also made it easy

to dismiss Aham's perspective like about how easy it would be to be like oh look at this bad guy

who has done a bad thing to you and to not acknowledge the fact that like they had talked about

this stuff you know and that she had not built the relationship that she had promised she was going

to like it's really brave and challenging and I think we are at a point in time where a lot of

people especially people who are speaking from like outside the safe center of our culture

like safe narratives because being a woman being a person of color you're fighting your way back

and being on unsteady ground makes you feel uncomfortable and like Lindy spends a lot of this book

on unsteady ground or at least inside of her. And you know aren't those two the same sometimes

yeah absolutely well what I thought was an incredible part of the story is that the reason she

or one at least one of the reasons I read that she found herself in this place of like she wasn't

showering she wasn't having desire in life or with him or with a lot of things she was just in a

dark place within their relationship because she was in a dark place and a lot of that came from

this chapter where she had written shrill and gotten the TV show made. I mean it's so fascinating

because it's two things first of all it's a TV show about your life it is a TV show where your

identity has been reprocessed through Hollywood corporations and like all of the mind

fuckery that goes along with that and then there's this other story of I got the job that I wanted

and wanted to be able to prove myself and people did not treat me with an appropriate amount of

respect and that was scary and dangerous. She starts the chapter talking about how if she had

anything resembling a dream growing up it was to be a stand-up comedian and she talks about the

fear of doing it which also was tied with body image and like not seen who people who she thought

were like her up on stage and then she referenced when Christopher Hitchens published his essay Why

Women Aren't Funny and Vanity Fair in 2007 the public response ranged from at last an intellectual

ways in to a scallywag to be sure but he has a point and like the way I can go back to the exact

rooms I was in talking about this piece when it came out in the way it destroyed women's lives

it mean it really that that piece like kicked us in the face and it used to like again I can only

see this from my own perspective and what's so interesting is that at the point in time when Lindy

was living in LA like roommates with Aham and Solomon Georgia the great stand-up comic really was

kind of a moment in LA comedy when the gender dynamic shifted and like this crew of really amazing

comics like Barbara Gray and Brandy Posey and Test Barker like came through and made respect for

each other more important than trying to be the pick me but it's easy now to be like ah yes

and then everything changed but just to realize like it was a horrible world and a lot of people

like had to trump through a horrible world and I think about all of the great comics I have known

who didn't get the opportunities that they should have just because of a world being more hostile

than it should been and also having directions that they could go in that were less hostile that

like Lindy found a better place for herself in her comic voice at Jezebel where she wasn't gonna

have to deal with you know shitty comments from guys and having to figure out how to get to her

car afterwards and all of this stuff like that but also like the number of comics female comics

and queer comics and female queer comics who got to that point of being on the tonight show

got to that point of having seven minutes on comedy central and then the industry just didn't

know what to do with them and there's something really cool about the fact that like so many of my

heroes the dudes are are like grand superstars who the entire world acknowledges as kings of comedy

but like I can fucking text Carol Liefer like Elaine Boosler and Kathy Ladman are people I can

talk to and reach out to and also because these people never got the laurels that they deserved

have been working really hard still writing these amazing jokes and it was a beautiful

chapter to read Lindy right because this person who has achieved so much and is respected by

so many people acknowledging this sense of loss and divorce and it makes me feel satisfied about

the things that I have wanted to do and haven't been able to do but also so proud of her she's so

funny oh I know I mean I think it's an incredible chapter about having a dream and not pursuing it

written in a way that feels so robust because what she writes is that like you said she finds a

way at Jezebel to write about comedy to be in proximity to this world she loves and she writes

again this piece for me heard around the world I remember like leaving it up backstage

on comedy clubs and it was how to make a rape joke yeah and in it she was like hey maybe let's

not put the punchline on violently raping woman and put the punchline on the rapist and even in the

piece she cited I loved the part of it she was like I even gave a pre canceled Louis CK props for

having one of the good rape yeah and people still they destroyed her on the internet she wrote

this she said at the time people treated internet trolling like the weather a natural and inevitable

byproduct of mass communication I kept all the receipts of everyone who ever trolled me especially

famous people in comedians I'd previously admired parentheses some of you are very woke now but I

remember I screen shoted everything for years thousands of images I said it was for safety and it

partially was people were threatening to kill me but mainly I wanted to witness no one but me

was going to read all these comments and down below the end of that page she said I remember when

Jay Johnston from Mr. Show literally storms the capital on January 6th and all the above pollinate

each other with disinformation while the media that might once have fact check them grows more frail

more corporate and less diverse and so she's talking about this thing in her life but she's also

talking about how our comedic history has unfolded and our misinformation has unfolded and how when

she finally finds herself getting her bookmate into a TV show she's like maybe I can make my dream

right again maybe I can prove to these comedy people who were mad that I said not to do terrible

rape jokes only do good rape jokes I can prove to them I am a good comedian and I am worthy of being

here and so when Hollywood is horrific to her that's what I think leads to this era of depression

that then affects her marriage yeah the the idea of being able to fix the past is like this really

interesting like late motif throughout the book and there's something really interesting about

her late in the book getting attached to and sort of acknowledging that like rewriting things to

a level of perfection isn't possible but like acknowledging an owning where you are is like

there was something I think anyone who has worked with in the Hollywood machine there is

something like very traumatic about reading about her experience of you know did any of this in here

happen to you there were so many things where it's like yes happens every day yes happens every day

like covered boys arguing over like when what should happen in your life is like

hilarious being managed on your own show like all of these things in somewhere in other

connected and then also there's the level of like so frequently I was the person she was calling

when this stuff was going on to be like should this be happening how do I manage that and also

at a point in time when you know still people like me I I only get auditions for things that are

gay or fat and then I don't get the role because I don't look like what a gay guy is supposed to look

like and I don't sound like what a fat guy is supposed to sound like so when there was a show that

was about fatness got it would have been cool if I had been able to guest on it and Lindy was like

I keep saying guys should be my friend on the show but they won't let me and this experience of

just like it's her show about her but there's all of this like they won't let me and there's no

space for you in this notion that like who she is is so unpalatable that it needs to be you know

moderated and modified by these other people and like that can't not affect you and even just

going back to well first of all about the point you made about the the rape joke piece that she wrote

is like she contributed greatly to our industry being a less shitty place that we know are at a

point in time when you can't make one of those shitty jokes that we were just used to being part

of the lay of the land but with that can this attack in this damage it like there's that way

that you go and you read the horrible things about you and it's kind of like cutting yourself but

imagining that you can just ignore that is impossible imagining that you can just ignore that is not

realistic and imagining that that whole process doesn't change someone you know is unrealistic

and I think that was something really beautiful to sit with in this book because again she is

so wonderful so funny so strong so so loud so bold she's writing again it is easy for you to be like

she's fine you know none of that matter and it's like it did matter I think what was horrifying to

me about shrill is that she said it's extremely corrosive to an already weak mind to be making a

show about the most vulnerable and embarrassing parts of your own life sitting in writer's rooms

listening to skinny white guys from Harvard debating so what season should we have the dad die

your actual dad who's actually dead only for it to be decided that he shouldn't die at all

because it isn't funny when someone's dad dies yes I know and she said they would come to her with

ideas like the marketing team said okay you'll go to Hulu and you'll find a picture of her refrigerator

and when you clicked on the refrigerator door it would open and you'd find all the episodes inside

and they said see it's a play on binge watching and binge eating and that they had finally had a show

representing someone never seen on TV and didn't have any people who related to that life experience

getting to write it except for Samantha Erby or like you said she was like guy should be on the show

and then by the second season they wouldn't let anyone Lindy wanted come back to write on the show

they wouldn't let anyone Lindy wanted be cast on the show and she said she was the only writer

of size in the entire writers room for seasons two and three and she didn't get to write anything

well and and she's in this position of them being like well you wrote this book but you're not a

TV writer you like we know what's best and you know it's interesting like look before 2020 there was

a lot of experiences being written by people who hadn't had those experiences like there was

you know there were a lot of blacks and cons yes women stories people of color stories but there

is this way that like people still don't even know how they're supposed to think about fatness

there's this great moment on the comeback there's this great moment on the comeback in the first

season where Jimmy Burrow says delivery cherish don't let this turn into the hate show and I've been

on things that turned into the hate show and like that thing of you can push back but if you push

back too hard it turns into the hate show it turns into that dynamic and Lindy knew better than that

the hard thing about it is for all of the compromises and uncertainty and what feels like failure

to Lindy there are thousands of people who will have watched that show and had it had it need

something to them and change the art that they're able to make and the participation that they're

able to have it having the society and 20 years from now we'll all be able to say like well wasn't

that a great thing but like in the moment you're just like God I wish I could have done this perfectly

I wish I could have gotten this thing out in a way that was less compromised but it's like hard you

know like yeah but I mean I think like I have have you sold a have you done a show based on your

life before yes okay like I know I mean one of the first things that happened was they want to buy

it but they don't want you to start like always the first thing again I was in the lovely situations

just the height of the pandemic and I called Mindy Kaling who was good at these things and was like

what should I do and she broke it down in like crisp analytical fashion and was just like

based on your career and the money that you're making right now and everything like that I would say

no like you you can survive you don't need this for the writing track say that you're worth it and I

did and they bought it from me to write the script and then they ended up not making it and you know

there's the whole thing of could it have gone better if I hadn't insisted that I'd be the star of it

or whatever but it's also like you only get one life you only get one chance and like I don't know

little dickies the star of his show and the showrunner and he'd never show on it so it's like I think

you've got like come on like this happens all the time yes but like never underestimate the

amount of the amount of trust that they have for screwy boys or a two boy directing team they'd

fucking hands their eight month old child to a two boy directing team but that's why you made the

the call it's like you made the best like it should be you and you have to make calls like that I

mean I was not supposed to be in my thing but I've sold a thing on my life a couple times and

you know to always get is like can they be less poor okay this is like well done yeah but that's not

the show man this is a huge issue that I have that this town does not know how to make stories about

working class people anymore that's oh my god are we best friends this is everything I ever

just like well how come the middle two time zones are only watching Taylor Sheridan shows and it's

like baby like you need to stop making shows where everyone's a lawyer but the money stuff

actually breaks their brains I understand your brain can't imagine it but most brains live it

every day I had a different thing that I sold and two of the characters had the careers that my

mom and my dad had the wife was a cafeteria lady and the dad was a construction worker and

they were worried that it was offensive to represent someone a cafeteria lady and there was one

point when I exact said yeah I said something about how we need to be able to represent people

who haven't gone to college and she said you know I think they're happier I think they're happier

they just don't have to worry about all of the things that we do and it's like you fucking

I've heard that before they're like oh but isn't it nice to have a simpler life and I was like

I'm actually gonna kill you okay well okay so yes yes exactly the reason I brought that up is that

like having worked in TV writer rooms for years and years and years and navigating this is still

so hard and for Lindy who this was her first time in the TV world she ends the chapter with this

paragraph so Schrill goes for three seasons which is incredible like what an incredible feat

and it ends and she goes home and she says a few months later I received a package from the

Schrill production offices with a few keepsakes from the show including a hardcover book of photographs

from our three years onset in which I literally do not appear amazing stuff on the cover was a

post it that read linda west I said yeah exactly I said 100 percent it's it's the best only Hollywood

could only Hollywood could the way that capitalism looms over this book and also I really appreciate

Lindy could have avoided some of the financial matters that she's very honest about like a

having to sort of say like I came to a point where I had to borrow money from idioma my sister

at law to to check into the transcript yes it's just on the eat pray love which is why I want this to

be eat pray love because a true be pray love is like oh I ran out of money and can't check into

the hotel because it's like oh you went your own TV show if you don't have money now you're bad

at managing your money and it's like also that was 18 checks you know like that was 18 checks and

order of that goes to your representatives and yeah 100 percent okay we have to go back to this

relationship so that we can tie up this episode but I want to read this one part to you and my note is

ah no and so I want to see how you reacted when you read this because this was the one moment in

the book where I was like oh my god she's giving us everything okay so she comes back from shrill

there's a lot of just like identity crisis life stuff going on and this is also when the marriage

stuff starts to break down a bit and she said there's a part of my marriage story that I haven't

talked about because it's harder to forgive I'm scared of what you'll think of me I told you a

home was secretly seen one woman in 2019 he was actually seen too the first one was Roya who lived

out of town was queer and monon monogamous had good boundaries in her own busy life and thus fell

within our relationship parameters the second one was younger she lived in our neighborhood she was

tall and thin and blonde and fun and wild and she knew people that we knew she was the exact woman

your husband leaves you for when you look like me I always think about this thing Kim Gordon said

after Thurston Moore cheated on her quote it ended in kind of a normal way midlife crisis star struck

there is a normal way of things I knew that I'd been bracing for it for years a lot of bad stuff

happened during the months they were entangled there were certainly the worst months of my life

but all you need to know for the purposes of this story is that a hum violated my trust badly

there was a period of utter chaos and at every right and every reason to leave him

and this is that one twist in the story where they had set up their polyamorous boundaries and rules

the beginning of the relationship and this was something that she was taking part in and then this

is the twist where he did violate those rules as they're going through this and she writes at the

end of this chapter you are predisposed to sympathize with me this is my book and you're reading it

presumably you like me at the very least you're stuck in my head and I control the aperture

in many ways my side of the story is easier to understand that uh-hums mine used to cultural

norms about heterosexual love and relationships while his challenges them also he was a big asshole

and put me through hell okay so what was your reaction reading this because this part had me

I don't know I was so so tense for her like how are you gonna make it through again I already know

it's a happy ending but well you know I also think part of the book is saying like there aren't happy

endings there are processes like human life is like processes and actions and sets of choices

and it was hard and it was harsh and it was real but also you and I have both had to write

about people that we know and love and you understand that there's a huge amount of power there

and like do you want to be right or do you want to be able to live in a world with other people

and I really appreciate both the courage of putting that out there and putting it on those terms

and also not overly forgiving or brushing aside what a harm had done you know just sort of like

saying this was the situation and people are imperfect and like that's like that's what a marriage is

you know and it's hard when we're trying to change the dynamics when we live in a world of

men cheating on women and women being expected to take it and all of that and you're trying to

shift the script well at the same time accept and acknowledge two people in specific situation

I was thinking to myself like anyone going through anything really tough in their marriage

regardless of like cheating sexual it it could be anything this is kind of the chapter

speaking to that yeah what do you do when something you should or could walk away from happens

in your marriage and you decide to stay yeah and should you and could you and would you and she

writes about how she's so happy they made it through that time but at that time she didn't know

she wanted them to make it have you read hard burn oh by Nora yes yes yes I have I mean it's great

and it is just the story between finding out that a man cheated and stopping loving him

and it's a story that I really love and also the like mid 90s Julia Roberts movie something to talk

about oh oh I need oh something to watch tonight yes it's the lady who wrote film in Louise it was

her second film oh holy shit she's also did Nashville right yes and it's basically a story of a woman

finding out that her husband is cheating and then going on a journey of falling back in love with

him but also like not unlike this book it's very much a personal inventory of like where are you

and what are you doing and Kira said to a place for sister who is calling her out on her shit

and is magnificent but yeah like we're adults and adults have to do bad things and acknowledge bad

things and deal with realities and being right is really good for one moment and then what you're

gonna do you know so okay so I am very much someone cheats on anyone even someone I don't know if

oh strange lady walked up to me was like my husband cheat on me day I would like well time for

me to go to jail for murder yes I should kill him I am Angela best at lighting the car on fire for

whoever and so what it was so cool reading this is like I do come from the like you know because

I wanted to murder him but also she doesn't want me to murder him yes you know well and as a

game man I consider sexual fidelity to leave the least important kind of fidelity you know

so many of the people I know have relationships that don't center on sexual fidelity but there's

this way that you are so tempted when it is a man and a woman to be like well god damn him and that's

all of us participating in a heteronormative story and Lindy is really good at acknowledging that

yeah and I think the other layer that really makes it crazy is the body image stuff as she's

talking about being like oh well because he chose a woman who looked like X and X and I represent

X and X and X what does that mean for our marriage and now it lives in a construct where everyone's

mad and it can't live in this other construct that I'm actually feeling about it well what's

really interesting about it is she sort of is simultaneously analyzing it from the sense of

how much do I need this monogamy to work for the world to see me the way that I projected in

Trill and then how much do I myself need this thing to acknowledge and validate it that's true to

me yes and like this trip is so much about a journey of embodiments one of the cool things about it

is like this journey with Ahaman Roya is so much about her getting to be alone and getting to

be enough on her own and then return back to Ahaman Roya yeah yeah well and that's what okay

so I love that you said sexual fidelity is the least interesting fidelity to me meanwhile over here

me I don't even like a group project okay and so I'm reading this mean like holy shit and what happens

is that she starts to feel an attraction to Roya and an attraction to having a bona as she writes a

bonus woman in her life and starts to wonder if she is pushing this thing away because of all of

these constructs that have been forced upon her and does she maybe actually want it and is it okay

to try but then she said it was probable not just possible that I was making Aham's polyamory feel

safe by inserting myself into it rather than doing the real work of accepting that there were parts of

him I was not entitled to know but on the other hand Roya sweet stable Roya with green eyes and

long black hair who thought I was beautiful who made Aham happy and soft again who was generous and

silly and ethical who had a giant brain and a pure heart who I didn't even know yet who somehow

brought peace into our lives just by breathing and who seemed to need us to even me that that was

I actually attracted to Roya or was I just relieved to find a loophole that let me stay in my

fucked up marriage because I was too scared to be alone was the situation healthier sick real or

fake progress or regress was a strong or pathetic straight or queer a woman who could discern her own

feelings or a baby who needed to be told when to get a divorce my job is on the floor yeah what's

great is you know in providing all of these minorities she's also giving us so much space in between

that it can be somewhere in between and that's okay which really is where this book ends so she

also talks about how she felt like you said so disconnected from her body and desire and not

allowed to be a sexual person with sexual needs that she has trouble even writing about sex or

talking about sex which then becomes a part of the book because her sex life changes her interest

change but she also can't write about it because she's like I'm so divorced from that part of

myself so you'll read things like we're in a thrupal and I've had more threesomes than anyone I

know but you're also not reading about her own desire because she's like I don't even know how to

write about that it's so weird and so then it does end up living in this gray area where it's

not handed to you the reader even though you know the story look Oprah did a lot for us but you know

there are always the problems there's doctor on us there's doctor Phil and there is this sense

there's Martha Beck there's here for a kiss and there's Deepak Chopra sorry the sense that you need

to be fixed the sense that you need to be correct and also a comfort that we as a public have to

be like ah she's not fully fixed fuck her she can't know anything and I think that there's like

in requiring people to be without fault before they can contribute their experience

that's a problem and you know you just explained the justice system for every female victim out

there but yes go ahead um but you know I think there is this issue of being able to acknowledge that

you don't have the terms or the right intelligence to be able to approach like you're talking

about her perceiving other fat women who have a different relationship with their sexuality

and trying to learn from them and there are so many aspects of sex and sexuality that I don't

know how to talk about but I feel like I'm I need to hide that because I'm a fat gay guy and I'm

supposed to be showing you that I'm fine you know like four women four queer people for so many

marginalized people there's this need to like before anything else show people that you're fine

and Lindy being able to present herself as happy like without emphasizing her fineness is very

powerful yeah I totally agree she ends the book the last chapter is called Thruple

and they all live together and they the three of them hurt Roya and Aham are all in a relationship

and she wrote this some people say that I'm delusional that I couldn't possibly be happy with two

partners they lose their minds when confronted with the idea of non monogamy and I am sympathetic I

used to share that lost mind I hated polyamorous people forgiving my husband this stupid idea my

skin blistered when I imagined Aham having sex with someone else it felt like I was dying at

just the thought of it now I hear Aham having sex with someone at least once a week and my reaction

is could you freaks keep it down I said you hear it this is where I was like I can't be like whoa

the other thing that blew my mind and maybe you're gonna be like Chelsea this is awesome and I

get it she said they fight like two of them sleep in the main room and one of them sleeps in the

guest room every night and she said getting to sleep in the guest room sometimes Roya and I fight

over it keeping the window all the way open all night long with my audiobook playing while hugging

my stuffed cat as Miralda not waking up at 5.30 a.m. to Aham info dumping the history of the

San Antonio Spurs consistently excellent number one draft fix embracing the pure pleasure of sleeping

alone feels like a distillation of this whole journey it's what I want I like it it doesn't have

to mean anything more than that I mean there can be very nice things about having other people take

care of some of the work in your relationship you know that's the part that my brain is struggling

with because I have a polyamorous friend who also said part of the benefits of polyamory was

getting to have a long time and getting to spend time with their friends because the partner's

time was taken up with another partner but my response is like shouldn't you always be able to have

a long time and spend time with your friends no matter what type of relationship you're in like why

specifically does your partner have to be busy with someone else in order for you to have the time

you need like can't your independence exist within the relationship with each other just no matter

what relationship you're in but I think specifically for Lindy in this book that is what she was

writing about she talks about how she was so codependent with Aham that this forced her to find an

independence she wouldn't have found otherwise or this forced her to enjoy alone time or this

made her realize she could spend endless time with her friends that she had missed and really

enjoyed and she said something like polyamory is the antidote to codependency which is what brought

her back to herself which is beautiful and getting the comments I would love to hear more about this

but to me it feels like a concept that's detached from sexuality or sexual choices that's more of a

concept of how you're spending your time or is that really all the same thing well there's also

just something nice about having a partner who gets to feel as sexually satisfied as they want

the sexual satisfaction comes in a number of ways and like if they're your partner clearly you're

satisfying them to some extent but like also to not have them project lack upon you as like this

lack is a condition of what you're not bringing to the table left them go find what they want

and you know it is to some extent uncharted territory and so people have to build new structures

and find new things and you know find the right terms also sometimes that can be more hard work

than just sort of like settling into a heterosexual monogamy that we understand very well

yeah especially if it wasn't meant for you like heterosexual monogamy definitely meant for people

but there are also people who like culture gave it to you and it's not what they actually want and

they have to break out of what culture is forcing upon you to get to the thing that actually makes

you happy which is what the core of this book is about like what actually makes Lindy happy

yeah and it's like one of the nice things about being gay is that the people around me are being

gay also not at a time of plague very important but yes yes but like you know I have friends who are

very exclusively monogamous I have friends who are in a play together couple I have friends who are

like we messed around but only with the other person not knowing about it and then I have one friend

who is in a polyamorous relationship and he's leave it about it all right so this is how Lindy

ends the book she says I know as well as anyone that life comes that you fast that everything

beautiful I've built in these pages could collapse in a blink rendering this book an artifact a

husk a humiliation but that's okay a younger version of me might have held back on some of this

love some of this joy for fear of losing it later and hearing the gallery say we told you so

but I'm not afraid of hindsight anymore a life isn't a book change doesn't make the past a lie

this is where it's like you're getting poetry in this book no I mean she's so many moments

with so many great lines so many great lines this is a book just so worth reading every and listen

I don't like hearing about anyone's travel like Beyonce could be like I just know into who I

you want to see my pictures and I would be like no fucking thank you and the fact that I loved

this book I think is just such a testament to her writing I loved every piece of every chapter

okay let's do the book do tests it's how we end every episode we're both gonna answer all three

questions okay first question was the author vulnerable in the sharing of her truth I mean a hundred

percent beyond I'm an off her I just yeah she's incredible second question was this book entertaining

to read yeah it's very funny I finished this in one sitting and like I said I knew how the story

ended and I was every page I was like oh my god what I loved it final question did reading this

book elevate your life in any way a hundred percent like the realization that having a body means

having desire and being able to accept that like wrapping my head around the way is that I have been

through my queerness and my fatness alienated from my body over the course of life is really big

and just having somebody as imperfectly and specifically and differently as Lindy does like

catalog her own experience really helped me understand my experience better that was so beautifully

said and I'm also a yes I think you know one of the reasons celebrity memoirs my favorite genre is I

just I love learning how people survive all this shit and do the thing I love most in the world

which is like create art and be entertaining and be a part of this Hollywood world which is so

difficult and Lindy has given us such a some of the greatest like political and comedic thinking in

the past two decades Jezebel changed my life and I'm not afraid to say it listen I know people can

come at Jezebel but I don't have anything else to read in 2010 it was so cool to read this side of

her because you think of someone who is so accomplished and so confident sure of themselves and they

have a memoir like shrill like oh you figured out life you're done you figured it out and to have her

open up this side of herself that is just it's just messy and in process and in pain and struggling

and unsure of what to do and starting at zero in many ways and working your way back up was just

such a good reminder of like we're all human and we're all in process and there was more I wish

was in this book and I bet she will write about in the future like you know she talks about being a

straight woman in this book and then it sounds like her first queer relationship ever was with

Roya which would be at that moment her husband's girlfriend there's just so much to say about that

and I hope we get to read about it in the future and also I'm I want to talk to Lindy about and

ask her some questions on our subscriber only interview with her so subscribe on patreon or

apple podcast and if you have a question for her and you're listening to this episode the moment

it comes out drop it on patreon and Instagram comments so I can chat with her about it but I'm

excited to dive even deeper into this book so sign up to get that episode guy will you tell

everyone about you and Lindy's event but then also all the places where they can find and follow

you as if they already don't but just tell us everything on march 10th I'm gonna be at symphony

space with Lindy west and we're gonna be doing a conversation about this same book adult

braces but also you can follow me at guy brand them on all social media except for TikTok where I'm

at guy brand I'm comedy and I'm doing my solo show at lyric iparian theater on march 13th 22nd 25th

and 31st uh yes I love I love thank you so much for being a guest today this was just wonderful

to talk about thank you so much it was so good to have to talk with you

a big thank you to our senior managing producer Christina Lopez our executive producer Jordan

Moncata our sounds engineer Marcus Haam and our amazing associate producer Jiren Padre I also

want to give a huge thank you to our incredible partners over at thrive cosmetics and every plate

we will link to those brands in the show notes go check them out everything else we discussed is

also linked in the show notes and if you have questions thoughts comments go to the patreon

sign up there's a free tier you can join leave a comment chat with your fellow cookies we will

keep the book club continuing over there

monster energy everybody knows white monster zero ultra that's the OG it kicked off this whole zero

sugar energy drink thing but ultra is a whole lineup now you've got strawberry dreams blue Hawaiian

sunrise in vice guava and they all bring the monster energy punch so if you've been living

in the white can branch out ultra's got a flavor for every five and every single one is zero sugar

tap the banner to learn more you know what they say early bird gets the ultimate vacation home

book early and save over one hundred and twenty dollars with burba because early gets you closer

to the action whether it's waves lapping at the shore or snoozing in a hammock that overlooks

well whatever you wanted to so you can all enjoy the payoff come summer with burpos early booking

deals rise and shine average savings a hundred and forty one dollars select homes only