‘Love Story’ Finale: Closing Time

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1:22We're here to wrap up a love story. That is the JFK junior Carolyn Bassett story. The finale has aired. The plane has gone down. We have mourned and we'll be mourning the series. So we're just going to wrap up the finale. Rob Mahoney, how are you feeling? Okay. It's hard to know how to feel after a finale like this, where I mean to be honest with you just given the source material and the real life people involved. I don't know that there's like a great way to make an episode like this. It's just like a really tall order to begin with. I also don't think that this delivers on everything that it could have been in the case of this episode. And this is the impossible conundrum. It's like, I don't know how to make this episode. And at the same time, this is the one you have to nail. I was reading this great interview with Brad Simpson and Nina Jacobson, who were the producers behind this. They also worked on American Crime Story. I'm like a huge fan of the way that they think about television. They didn't interview with Chris Murphy at Vanity Fair, where they were talking about the challenges of this episode. Obviously, there are a million challenges. But one of them that they talked about in the finalies of all of these kinds of shows they've done is like,

2:23as a quote from Brad Simpson, he said, the last episode is always a challenge because you're tying what is usually the most known part of the story, right? This is, you know, like all the details of how Carolyn and JFK met or all this sort of stuff like that. That is like fertile playground for them. But this is a plane crash that we all know that the plane is going to go down. So there's no suspense inside of that. So, you know, not that I would want them to try for that. So what story do you tell? And they talked about how it was always their plan to put the plane crash, the exact, and it is the like precise midway point of this episode. And I'm curious if you were surprised about how much episode there was before the crash or how did you feel about how they split that up? I think pleasantly surprised about how much there was before just because I was a little worried we weren't going to get much of John and Carolyn together, which to me has just been the charge of the whole show, other than getting on the plane and ultimately meeting their demise. So the idea that, you know, some of it works for me and some of it doesn't, like them in marriage counseling is like a little on the nose at times, but them post marriage counseling,

3:25I think is like fun and evocative and like digging into the parts of their relationship that are interesting to me. So I'm really glad we got that time and I'm glad in part because I think one of the flaws of this season that really came to roost in this episode is that I don't know the love story ever built out the architecture around John and Carolyn to be like a fully fledged real as show. And so then when you take them out of it and you have everyone else morning them and trying to make sense of what happened, you understandably feel the absence in the way that you're supposed to, but you also are just like, so what is this show now? What am I supposed to be waiting for? What am I supposed to be paying attention to? Am I invested in these side characters who to this point have shown up mostly to like dump exposition? It's a tough spot. You and I talked about that last week when you talked about how sometimes it feels like they forget these side characters are there until they need to bring them forward to something. I kind of largely agree with you on that point that I think the foundation around these two has been pretty shaky.

4:26But I actually disagree in that the back half of this episode, which was a constant Zimmer as Carolyn's mom show base made me cry, which I have not been that emotionally invested in this show thus far. And that's the that performance and those, you know, the trio of scenes, her edge Lasberg scene, her Caroline Kennedy scene, and then the eulogy, the poetry reading at the at the funeral really, really got to me. And so we're going to talk a bit about constant Zimmer and sort of like that kind of performance, but it really unlocked something for me for this season, which is that I think the writing is not tremendously great for this season. I think it is quite overblown and we've talked about that a bit, but I think it's sort of it's weird for me to compare to Shakespeare about about to compare to Shakespeare in that if like you go see if you go to Shakespeare play. And you are watching actors who really understand the emotional truth of what they're saying, you can understand the Shakespeare dialogue, even if you don't are not versed in the vocabulary.

5:29And if you are watching an actor who is just sort of like hitting the I am a pentameter beats, then you're just sort of like at sea with like what are we talking about here. So for me, like in an ideal world, Grace Gummer is Caroline Kennedy, like this is her episode, right? Like in an ideal world and an ideal performance and she is so much, she's carrying so much of the back half of this episode. That is a performance that like didn't really fully click for me. And I think she has a tough job here because Caroline Kennedy is a very reserved person. So she is like playing a very reserved person, whereas like the role of Ann Freeman, Caroline's mom is like allowed to be as emotional as possible. But like in that scene and, you know, I'm going to sort of want to zig and zag around constant simmer, this thing that really worked for me, but like inside that one on one scene, that lengthy one on one scene that they have inside of Carolyn and JK's apartment, you know, it has to lift some really clunker lines, like my faith has allowed me to make sense of this world, helping me to understand the big existential questions, but now there's just deafening silence. I mean, how do you live in a world that doesn't make any sense that something she says and we talked before about how these characters don't speak the way that humans speak, but there's something about the emotionality of how she delivered that completely completely connected with me, but then like Caroline then has to come back with a line like all we know is that time doesn't belong to us.

6:56Nothing is promised, which is like an insane thing for a human to have to say, and like I like Grace Gummer in general as a as a performance, but like it really struck out to me that like that they're both given this like very flowery clunky dialogue and one of them is just like nailing me in the heart with the emotion and then the other one is kind of missing and I was like, oh, that unlocks the whole season for me because like Sarah Pigeon can just like nail this shit and then Paul Kelly can like sometimes do it. I was in a novella can nail this shit and just like not everyone around them can so like when you have a performer that can just bore into the emotional truth of this story, I'm like in and I'm invested, but unfortunately that's only here and there inside of this season overalls where I let out I think I think the contrast you're highlighting within that scene of those two women in particular is just so tough like it really like flashing back and forth as they are delivering that dialogue you feel the palpable difference and you nailed it, so I think just not only believing and understanding the emotionality as a performer and managing to channel it through the world.

8:04This I just I wrote down so many Caroline lines in this episode because she she in particular is given just some absolutely horrific ones. Yeah, but that's part of it, but it's also just like part of the larger project of making a TV show or making a movie like the smoke and mirrors are the magical part and so much that when we talk about things like suspension of disbelief, I think we get bogged down in like plot mechanics right is this plot believable, but so much of it is like what takes you out of the magic of the moment. And Constance Zimmer is constantly reeling you back in with the emotion with like with her performance is just so so dialed in and I think where I want to extend. I mean Grace gumber a little grace if you allow it is you know I was talking to dev before for this pod about the initial moment when Caroline finds out about the plane. Yeah, and in that moment I think she's terrific and there's not a lot of dialogue in that scene and I don't think that's an accident and as soon as it becomes time where she has to deliver. I mean just at absolute best things that are so painfully direct they're just like stating the themes of the show.

9:12It does her no favors is doing no one in the show any favors and all of the smoke and mirrors in the magic just leads the room. So if anything you mentioned that because you know we talk about this sometimes we talk about the pit where we're just like the pit just says the thing right and we're just like okay. This episode so just says the thing so many times and I think the worst one actually is given to Constance Zimmer when she is talking about Caroline and how she says like. She became someone she didn't recognize right and then she says that person will be immortalized forever I only wish she had lived long enough to be remembered for something else and then that is just the show. Padding itself back to be like hey we get equal time to John and Carolyn if anything we gave more attention to Carolyn than we get to John and aren't we better than time magazine and all the other press that like you know buried not only Carolyn but Lauren like when win win and their mother is talking to edge lossberg across that name she's like you haven't even mentioned my other daughter who died in this crash thinking about Carolyn I was talking to a pal of mine Katie rich who did the first episode of our coverage with me and we were sort of texting last night when we were watching the episode and she reminded me and I had forgotten that Caroline Kennedy's daughter talking on a

10:30simple iceberg just died at the end of December at like they age 35 really young from leukemia so it's just like you think about Caroline Kennedy like you think about JFK Jr. and and everything they. You know tell us about the tragedy of losing his father that young age all of the expectations all of these things but then you think about Caroline again in this episode who like so clearly then has to deal with losing her brother yes and then we know the extra textual information that she like lost her her daughter and it's just like. thinking, I was just projecting a lot of that knowledge about Caroline Kennedy onto the performance, but overall, I think, I think this episode would really knocked me off my feet if that Caroline performance had really been able to connect with me the same way the Anne depiction did at the end of here. That's one area where I feel like they did a good job of boiling down a lot of these people to an essential struggle, an essential quality, right? Like, what is the thing about Caroline Kennedy that is interesting that we want to dig into? And this idea that she is experiencing

11:32profound loss across her life, across years, and in ways that are shocking and that no human being would be equipped to deal with, that's something really interesting to just dive into as a writer. And then they never did the part where you kind of hide it. It's just like, it's just going to be text. We're just going to say it that it just never felt, it never felt, it never feels earned when you just put it out there. I think that's part of the problem. And Caroline all throughout the season, I think has been put in spots to have conversations that are just not that interesting. And if you'll indulge me one other line reading Joe, the one you read from Constance Zimmer, I actually, she's so good in delivering it. She tricked me into thinking, is this a good line? I know, I know what I'm saying. She's so good that even like a clunker like that, you're like, I was like choked up. Anyway, sorry. The Caroline one that really got me was, and I think one of the big flaws at this episode are the two parallel sister conversations that happen with Carolyn and John talking to their sisters, neither of which just work because they're

12:34so direct. And while Caroline is talking to John, she says, you met someone who wasn't willing to contort to what you needed and you fell in love. And now those qualities, that fire, that self possession, aren't serving you anymore. And you're crying foul, are you fucking kidding me? That scene was tough, honestly, like quite tough. All right, let's go back to the beginning. So, I want to go back actually to the very beginning of the show because something that Katie and I talked about, and I think you and I talked touched about on this a little bit last week, was like the decision to start with the tarmac, start with them getting on the plane in episode one, but actually where episode one starts is inside the manicure scene. And so to think about the decision to put us so inside Carolyn's head of her anxiety. Why? Like, first of all, she's being hunted by the paparazzi. So we get the, you know, the flash bulbs and the shouts from the streets. And then we watched the reason why she not only went to get her nails done, but got them redone inside of that that appointment is this tremendous anxiety and pressure to fit in with the

13:38Kennedys and be accepted. And we know what it was like for her to go to Hannah's port before and all of this sort of stuff like that. And so putting us inside her head. And then I didn't know, like watching that scene, I didn't know what we have her mother reveal later in the episode, which is that the, you know, there is a version of the story in the press that Carolyn's vanity, you know, and the way that she spits out that word her vanity, right? That Carolyn's vanity is what delayed the flight, which is what caused the crash, etc. And and sort of reframing of that is like, actually, as you're fucked up, fuck up brother, who like, you know, was was doing something beyond his guilt set, but to, to, to start with that manicure scene and to start with a so inside of her head and to watch her be like shaky and hunted and all these things that she was inside of that moment, I thought that was like a really smart thread that I didn't see coming because I didn't know that aspect of the meeting narrative, you know? Yeah, I think the closing of a couple of different loops within this finale were very effective. Yeah, revisiting some of that cold

14:41open stuff, even the way they kind of reintroduce and return to like the first date with all of the context and all that they've been through. I found to be really powerful and effective. And so there's a lot of like groundwork being laid within their relationship in the season that really pays off it. Yeah, it's more for me about everything else around it. And then once they're gone, how are we, how are we making a show at that point? Yeah, the, the return to the restaurant, I, I loved because I identified like that was my favorite scene. And I think it remains my favorite scene of the entire show because I do think, you know, and, and you had texted me when you started watching the show like I'm in like their chemistry and their chemistry is so important. And again, even as that has faltered in the last couple episodes for me, I go back to that scene and that date and their connection and, and how like, I talk about this all the time when I talk about like a flea back season two, how flea back season two is a show that like had me actively like leaning closer to the screen as I was watching it because I was just like so drawn in and so invested by the chemistry. Like that's God tier, of course, like level, you know, how dare I

15:44talk about flea back season two inside the context of this. But I did find myself in that initial scene. Yeah, leaning, leaning towards the screen sort of like wanting to be a part of that conversation. And, and so I, I didn't find it cheap at all. I thought it was really well done the way they went back to it inside of this episode. And even returns like some of the very specific conversation they were having, not just like, you know, the bit about the laminated menu, but the signs over their respective heads and kind of like what, what they are putting out in the world and what they're withholding from the world, which is such a core part of both of these characters in the way they've been presented this season, right? Who is, who is interested in projecting what to whom is one of the central concerns of the show? Right. But again, Sarah Pigeon is so good that when she's like, the sign actually reads like, she's not as tough as she thinks. And you're like, okay, um, yeah. Okay. So let's, let's, let's get to the crash. This is something that I had a lot of preparation about. I mean, something that I think we mentioned, but I want to underline how strange it is. They did not release

16:45this episode to press. They might have like made a few exceptions because, you know, like VF had their interview with the producers up like fairly quickly. So like, you know, I think there are like a few media outlets who had it early for the most part. They held this screener back from press, from I heard like internally inside of, you know, like, like, you know, it was just something that they were hiding the ball on. And like, you know, that's really rare, especially this day and age. And especially like with the show, well, it's based on a true story where everyone knows what's going to have like to bring people inside baseball a little bit. You might do this with game of thrones, right? You might do this with a big end big surprise ending of some kind. They don't even do it with a game of thrones. Like they used to do it. I would say that they used to do it with like game of thrones. They didn't give out screeners at all for like the last couple seasons or like, like better call Saul is one where they like held back or something like that. So there's like a few exceptions. But like for the most part these days, the networks and the streaming companies like

17:47need the press a bit more than they used to just to like get the word of just to permeate in the media landscape. And so I'm seeing less of a like, you can't have these episodes from streamers than I then I used to like 10 years ago. And so I was just like, I wasn't upset about it. I was just like quite surprised because I was like, we all know there's a plane crash. So then I was, you know, it set my wheels turning. I was like, okay, are they, are they just like worried about how people are going to respond to possible crash? And you know, in that interview and Nina and Brad, the producers did say like, oh, yeah, we're brazed. You know, the Kennedy family is not going to be happy about this. But for all of the conversations that the show has taken us behind closed doors to conversation, we couldn't possibly know the content of. We certainly could not possibly know what the conversation was like inside of that plane, right? Because it's just those three people and those three people did not make it out of that plane crash alive. So they really have to figure out

18:48how they want to tell that if they even want to take us into that cockpit, how long do they want to put us in there? And what do they want to show us? And what we do know is is the sort of the recap that we get the spatial disorientation diagnosis. Like that is a, uh, the accepted diagnosis of what happened in this flight that that John who was not a super, super, super experienced fire, there was Hayes, there was darkness, other people were flying that night, described it, described the conditions, spatial disorientation, which is something I had never heard of is like, you know, they described it really well in the show. It's like going under a wave, you just like lose your sense. And I think they did a really good job with him. But the question and, and we were talking about this a little bit before we started recording, but like the question is of Lauren and Carolyn inside of that moment, because both Lauren and the backseat and Carolyn here in the front seat with him are like experiences sort of like zen, just breathe reaction to it,

19:51which, you know, is definitely is certainly a choice. What do you make of that as like a decision to interpret how they would have responded? It does it sit well with you? What do you think? I think part of the reason why it sits, it sits okay with me. I'm not thrilled. I'm not thrilled frankly about anything in terms of that scene and what's going on in the cockpit. And I think some of that is by design, because I, you know, we've been talking about this show, Joe and the way it's drawn and the way it's written and the way it's structured. And I think we need to acknowledge, like for some people, the entire premise of making a show like this is disgusting, right? Like taking real life tragedy, dramatizing it to a degree that for me personally, like I don't mind a fictional, like a lightly to medium fictionalized version of a person to create a different portrayal of a character of a life person. Like I'm totally cool with it. I think even for someone like me, taking us into the cockpit and having them say anything big or important in what would be

20:53the final moments of their lives would feel like really distasteful. And so then you're, you're again caught in this conundrum of like, are we going to show this at all? Which I do think in the experience of watching it, the sort of like meta-tension of, are they actually going to show this plane go down? Are they actually going to show a collision, unexplosion? Are we going to see these people die on screen? I think it puts viewers in a really odd spot. And not necessarily a bad one, but one that also might contribute to them withholding just to make sure no one knows going in what they're walking into at this episode. And then once you have that meta-tension, how do you resolve it in a way that doesn't feel gross? I really don't know what they were supposed to do there. Yeah, I mean, the option is to just not show them, you know, show them getting into the plane, but not in the cockpit at all. But the disorientation, I do feel like not only telling us that it's like going under a wave, but feeling and seeing the lack of visibility from the plane.

21:53I do think it really does kind of anchor you in that sort of panic, but then when the characters aren't responding with panic, I think that's where you're getting that sort of dissociation you're mentioning. I think it's interesting that this description they have inside of the episode, spatial disorientation based on your impaired brain rather than your reality, being taken under by a wave. Showing Paul Kelly's performance is John in that moment where we're watching this crinkled brow, this almost head empty no thoughts. We've talked about the way in which John is, you know, the hunk flunk sort of like this kind of dummy performance to a certain degree. I wish, you know, for all of us saying they just wouldn't said the thing, I wish they had tied that in a way that made better sense to me inside of the themes of John and his, I mean, it's there inside of the show, this idea like based on your impaired brain rather than your reality.

22:58And Carolyn constantly saying like you're the way in which privilege has inoculated from you from the world, your experience with a paparazzi is different from my experience with a paparazzi. Your experience at Hiannesport is different from my experience at Hiannesport. You have gone through life, expecting that people things will work out for you and so they have. And so there is a way in which the show is sort of laid track for like that's his demise, right? His demise is he's unable to actually connect with reality and he's in that cockpit in the first place because he thinks he can do something that he is actually not fully trained to do. So all of that is in the text of the show. I just wish I didn't get, I didn't emotionally connect to that like, oh no, here it is this like tragic flaw inside of this person taking not only taking him down, but taking these two women down with him. Yes. I don't feel like they really sort of made that a character beat as much as I

23:59wanted it to be. It felt more circumstantial inside of the moment. Do you know what I mean? I completely agree with you. I think a lot of a lot of those moments in the plane feel so tepid in a way that yeah, you're waiting for some reaction, some response in either direction, whether it's misplaced certainty or outright panic, but like you never really get to any of those notes. I do just think this is one of those areas though where I wonder if they got a little squeamish about putting thoughts into those characters heads in that moment and it is as simple as that of like in theory, I agree with you. If these were totally fictional characters tying a story beat to the way that they ultimately pass and like the decisions they make leading up to it, that's a good storytelling. Can you do that here? And frankly, do you have the guts to do it with a story that means this much to so many people? It's a lot. It's a lot to ask and it's a lot to put out there. I think yes, but on the other hand, we were talking about this last week. Any time you've seen a Diana story happen, her death, and they talked about this a lot in the crown when

25:01they finally did the Diana death moment inside of the crown where they were like, we didn't want to go into that tunnel with them. So we didn't go into the tunnel. We followed them up until the tunnel and then we were like, we're not going to go into there. And we're not going to show you what the final moments were inside of the car. We're going to show you a bit, but we're not going to show you like it. So there are ways in which the crown got squeamish about this thing if they had to do, but there are also ways in which that story, the hunting of Diana, that is such a clear like this is the narrative we've been spending so far. My brain slightly please forgive me survivor, cooked right now, but like while watching, sorry, so sorry to take us on the left turn to survivor, but like watching survivor 50 is an exercise in watching reality TV editing, because every episode of survivor, someone their game is over. And so it is the job of the editors to show you what are the fatal mistakes that they made along the way. So like we as viewers are

26:02watching episodes in advance, you start sort of tracking these narratives and you're like, what, you know, what are they trying to show us? Stakes are obviously incredibly different on survivor versus this, but like tying these final moments of Carolyn just saying like just breathe back to John showing up at her apartment earlier in the season, panicking about his mother's death. And her that moment of their beginning of their relationship, real beginning of their relationship, not their first date, but they're just sort of like just breathe him trying to kiss her, her being like, what are you doing? Not like this slow down, slow down. That's that's a sort of attempted close of another loop that they tried to do here. But again, I I think I'm with you where I just felt like wrong being in the cockpit at all with them, you know, I don't think there was any waiting for trying for them here, you know, I think it made this in better off if we did not to rewrite the show, but if we had cut off at a different point in terms of our access to those characters, in part because of the potential culpability involved, right? Like the plane goes down

27:03in part because John is not equipped to fly it in that moment. And this is to me the biggest difference with the Diana story, right? Like there is a level of you don't want to go in the tunnel with Diana just because of how horrible it is and turns out, but she is the victim, like purely the victim of those circumstances. John is at minimum, our participant in his own death in the killing of these two women. And so, or the death of these two women, I should say, which I think just makes the whole exercise like that much mercier and that much messier in terms of unpacking exactly what these characters are going through in that second. But if you're going to make the show, you have to be ready to wrestle with those things. And so those those objections, like the problems that we're having, those are the arguments you raised before, you know, even pick up this show in the first place. Right. Maybe when you're cracking the story in the first place, but if it's all here in the finale and it's not delivering on again, the one thing you have to get ready, it's hard to not hold that against the show. I'm thinking a lot about American crime story, the OJ season. Just the very best version of what they've done here, and especially with things like

28:09and talking inside this episode about how she wished, you know, the world had better understood her daughter, the the extremely sexist sort of like it was her vanity, it was her manicure that caused the crash or whatever the case may be, you know, versus the much, I actually think subtler way that the OJ season took a character of person like Marsha Clark as portrayed by Sarah Paulson and just showed us didn't tell us but just showed us the extremely nasty sexist tabloid coverage of her as a person inside when she is like, you know, the avenging angel of this story and is painted in this way. But also that show had a really hard needle to thread because of the OJ case, we're not going to like show the murder, we're not going to say one way or another whether he did it because we can't say that. So we can only tell you a story where you have to draw

29:12your own conclusions about what actually happened there. Again, because you know, a man and a woman died and you know, a family is devastated and a nation is enthralled but like all of these stories, American crime stories, this which is essentially an American crime story even though it's positioned as a love story, it's job is also to hold a mirror up to us as sort of like why do we have these ghoulish fascinations, why do we have these like when you watch the crowd of people outside of John and Carolyn's apartment and they're sort of like ecstasy of grief, you know, and I mean this just sort of like what it means for us psychologically to just sort of like marinate in this public deification or grief and all this sort of stuff like that and then Caroline as this like singular actually emotionally affected person walking like parting that crowd and walking through it. I thought that image was really again a dialogue

30:14moment that image was like really potent inside of this episode. And I think this is why overall the decision for this season to focus so much more on Carolyn as opposed to even the internal thoughts and feelings of John, I think pays off in huge ways throughout the season and including in those ideas, right? If you're going to show a mirror, if you're going to hold up a mirror to us and ask us to interrogate tabloid culture and why we're interested in cases and deaths like this and why not just as there's this crowd of people outside their apartment, but it's almost like one crowd has been substituted for another of like the paparazzi was there and now it's these mourners and still just a big crowd of people out there. And Carolyn is the one who has to reckon with all of those differences in her life. For John, these are just facts, right? Like the paparazzi will follow him wherever he goes. Carolyn is the one who is affected on a psychological level to the point that she becomes a shut-in to the point that she's second-guessing herself that she is picking a new color for her nails at the salon to fit in because she doesn't want to be too ostentatious. It's like she is the avatar for so much of what we're meant to take away and interrogate

31:17within the show. And if you're going to pick a character to do it and an actor to do it, like Sarah Pigeon delivered on all of that stuff at a really high level, I wish the rest of the show kind of was up to it, but I don't know that it always was. Snoring, gasping during sleep, feeling fatigued? Wake up to Zeppbound, Terzepetite. The first and only FDA-approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and adults with obesity. Zeppbound is an injectable prescription medicine that may help adults with moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and obesity to improve their OSA. Zeppbound should be used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity. Zeppbound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15 milligram injection. Zeppbound contains Terzepetite and should not be used with other Terzepetite-containing products or any GLP-1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zeppbound is safe and effective for use in children. Do not share needles or pens or reuse needles. Don't take Zeppbound if allergic to it, or if you or someone in your family had medullary

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34:19Of course. Right. Okay. And so like the way I've heard Joe multiple people in my life ask if I have heard from you about the rock wig watch. Yeah. I heard from our pals Nora and Jody about it, like, you know, about my, like, expert take on the wig watch of the rock. But but it got a, you know, something I think that it was like I think something that Nora, Nora Pertiotti, I think said to me is like, she was like, Wigs have both gotten like much, much better and then also way, they're either way, way worse or much, much better. And there's no like sort of like, it's kind of fine middle ground anymore. And so I was thinking about Carolyn Beset inside of this about Sarah Pigeon because like Sarah Pigeon is a, is a woman with dark hair with such like a supporting character in the season, not just the way that she was constantly like flipping around and playing with it. I mean, one of the great hair flippers of all time. I really just put it out there. I really agree. But also the way in which like she goes from this like sort of dirty blonde color to this like flat ironed platinum platinum blonde sort of like grace Kelly manicured

35:23Barbie, which is what Carolyn, Carolyn, Carolyn Beset, Kenny also did in her life, of course. So I was like, I was like, was that I was like, what was the wig and what wasn't was like something I was I was like, surely this exists somewhere. They put her in this wig as because I was like when they when they showed us the manicure scene again, I was like, that's a wig. I was like, that is a wig. And so what I found out is that they had put out a photo of her in that wig. And the internet did not like it. And so they were like, Oh, no, we're going to have a problem. Her hair is so iconic. So what they did for sort of the rest of the show is they and Rob forgive me for taking you so deep on this. But no, Joe, what else do we have? How deep can we go? They put 400 K-tip extensions in her hair. So they used her natural hair. They they dyed it blonde or but they put 400 individual

36:25extensions in her hair, which would have taken just an unfathomable amount of time. That's like a Frankenstein level costume commitment. That's it's so like so they wanted to like judge up her hair and make it look like, you know, and they did like I was obsessed with watching her hair. And but it's also kind of her natural hair. So she can like flip it around. Her hair line looks real, but there's like 400 extra strands. They individually placed inside of there. And so by like it to go back to this sort of like leaning into Paul Kelly as this sort of like empty suit depiction of Dave K Jr. leaning into her hair or being like this natural part of who this physical woman is versus this like wig that looks kind of wiggy on top of her in these final moments is like a great sort of meta, you know, way to tell this story of this woman who becomes a Barbie, you know, at the end of the day. It's so true. I mean, yeah, it does kind of complete the look and complete the picture. I just keep coming back to Paul Kelly though. Like I

37:31I the chemistry is so real and very palpable. And I think they're obviously scenes and extended stretches of the season that really, really clicked for me because of the magic between the best performers. I left this episode wondering though because I feel like he's just kind of overexposed over the course of the season. If this had been a movie instead of a limited series and it's it's a two hour runtime in which he is JFK Jr. And yeah, he has like some monologues and some big reactions that maybe he delivers well or he doesn't whatever it may be, but we're just the pure volume of it. Feel more manageable and feel like something that fits within the context of the movie better as opposed to what we get on screen. What do you think of that idea? Uh, love it. I had a similar idea, but it was just that this season should have been shorter. This season should have been six episodes max is what is what I think and I think that would have helped solve the problem. I also think like a lot of things should be movies instead of limited series these days. So I'm not I'm not objecting to it at all, but let's not let's not take away from our livelihood. You know, you need a number of limited series. So like let's not call

38:34keep things going through the machine, but prestige movie podcasts. That's true. But yeah, I think also like it really clicks something from you when I found out that like he was such a last minute ditch casting effort for them that they like did not they had their other actors and they did not have a john and they and they finally cast him. I was thinking a lot in this final episode of like what if they had cast someone who looked looked less like him, but just was a better actor, you know what I mean? And just sort of like sacrifice that sort of like facsimile yeah, attempt for someone who could better match their epigen's ability, because if you think about someone like I mean, I you know, I go back to the crown and it's just sort of like Joshua Conner both does and doesn't at all look like a younger Prince Charles, but Joshua Conner as young Prince Charles is like one of the best things I've ever seen on television. Yeah, and I think it's like more important to get that performance than it is, especially if you're doing

39:39what you said, which is taking dramatic liberties with a real person, you're not giving us a documentary, you're giving us the framework of a story we know and then you have written these behind the scenes moments or tried to make larger character arcs that are tidier than an actual human character arc would be and for the sake of the drama, I support all of that. Then I think you can get a little like loose with who you put in that role and especially we talked about this with the trap American crime story eventually fold it and fell into, which is like you really don't need to put like prosthetics on these people, you really don't need to like, you know, SNL any of this stuff. So I think, you know, Paul Kelly who looks so much like Jacob Jr. or a young Richard gear, but then you think about like what a young Richard gear would do with this role and you're like, fuck, that's just like in the stratosphere of a better show than the one we got. So it would have been something else. I mean, I think first of all, like I don't blame anybody who would be in the room with Paul Kelly at any point or seeing him

40:41on like a test like the magnetism that that man must have in a room has to be incredibly powerful. And I do think he pulls off a lot of this part just not the parts that would really elevate it into being like an all-time thing you would return to over and over. And the contrast point, I'm glad you brought up the crown because something that I was reminded of in the first episodes of this show was one of my favorite parts of the crown, which is the the Princess Margaret Tony meeting of Matthew Goodvinesse Kirby and like how charged that episode is I mean, holy shit, just smoldering stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Matthew Good does not look like Antony Armstrong Jones. Basically at all, as far as I can tell, like no resemblance whatsoever, but to your point is one of my favorite working performers and is like so compelling on screen. I think you raised a great idea of like this might have been a case where you accept some of the trade-offs, someone who's like also very handsome, but handsome in a different way or has a different kind of energy, I think might have also worked here. And I think you would have posed, you know,

41:44you're like not to rewrite the show, but I'm like not to recast the show, but I think you would have what else do we do with the ringer, honestly? But like I think that it would have posed a lot of problems for them initially because they got a lot of shit from the internet large anyway for like she doesn't look enough like Carolyn. She's not as stylish as Carolyn. There was all of this pushback of the set photos. And Nina and Brad talked about this in the interview where they're like, oh, ho, ho, how the tables have turned. Everyone thought we were doing a shit job, but now people are putting kangle hats on their dogs. Like, you know, we've really done, we really did it. So like I love I love Nina and Brad. So I love that for them. But like I do think they would have gotten a bunch of like what the fuck do you mean? You've cast this person as JFK Junior. He doesn't look like him at all. So then if the performance is, you know, outstanding, then I think it quiets all of those initial questions. That has happened time and time and again with casting. So it would have it would have caused more problems from them up front, but I think would have paid off better dividends. But like, you know, they're sitting here with a very successful show. So

42:46they're like, what the fuck do I know? Rob and Joanna, I don't know. So yeah, I think a lot of overhitting in my experience watching this season is like the first couple episodes. I think Sarah Pigeon and Paul Kelly and really the execution of the show made a lot of this stuff look really easy. The set design is so good. The period stuff is so great. We talked about the soundtrack. Their chemistry clicks right out of the gate. At least it for me. Yeah. And then the deeper you go into the season, you realize, oh, this is really hard to pull off. Like this is going to be really hard to wrap up in a way that feels complete and substantive and fair to the people involved and also delivers on the promise of like giving us a fuller portrait of the like a version of these characters that's been refracted through memoir and time and our understanding of these people. But it's like, I don't know how you do all that. I keep coming back to it over and over, but I think this show might have just been an impossible task. And they took a stab at it and sometimes they're successful and sometimes weren't. I think one thing that really did, I mean, Sarah, I think is solid rock solid throughout, but I think really did Paul a favor in the first couple

43:47episodes is like how I still think the worst part of the season is Naomi Watts is as Jackio. I think that was like genuinely like terrible performance from an an act of side love. On all time. Like it's she has some of these. This is not the only one Naomi Watts, like she takes some swings. We respected. I respect. I respect the ambition of what she often tries to do. This one did not work at all. But I thought she was so bad. We love in respect. I think we can call it. Yeah, let's call what it is. That I was like, well, as soon as Jackie's gone, this show is just going to get a lot better. I think that's what I thought I was just like and like all that's what all John's girlfriend's thought to apparently. Daryl Hannah certainly hoped that. But yeah, but then but then her absence then made me focus closer on on Paul's performance, which then sort of started to feel fair for me. All right, anything else you want to say about this episode before we get to this little like side quest. I've decided we should go on inside of this podcast.

44:47I want to give like one little shout out before I move on, Joe, to the scoring for this show, like the the central theme. The theme is so good. It's so good. And I think over the course of this show proved to be just incredibly versatile where you change the key a little bit, you slow it down, you speed it up, you you layer it with other sound in kind of the soundscape. And all of a sudden, it can be first date music, be cute music, it can be like your mother just died music, it can be we're at the funeral for John and Carolyn music, like somehow in the fact that that core melody could play on all those situations. I mean, Bryce Desner from the national score of this show, I just think did a pretty amazing job with it. It was so good in those first couple episodes, it was so remarkably good in that it felt immediately like recognizable. I'm like historically kind of terrible at like, you know, in shows like Game of Thrones, like those composers will, you know, compose individual character themes that will like come up again and again. And I'm like kind of historically terrible at identifying them. I have friends who could be like, oh my god, did you hear how they blended Brianna's theme with the Jamie's theme? And I'm like, no, I didn't,

45:52I could not tell. I'm like, I'm I'm a depth to that kind of stuff. But the theme for this show was so immediately like memorable that I was like, did they still, I was like, is this lifted from something else? Yeah, did they pull it? Yeah, I was like, is this, you know, did they do what they were doing? And I used to put like the theme to stargate in every single movie trailer. And you're just like, yeah, I feel it. But I love how did you ever see that show? The adventures of Briscoe County, Jr. Do you know what I'm talking about? I think you know I did, Rob. I think you know, of course I did. I'm glad that you did. In part because the theme for that show just became like the theme for the Olympics somehow over time. It's like the way this stuff gets repurposed is truly remarkable. Right, but this one, this is a, this is distinct. Yeah, they really really nailed it with that. Okay, the side quest that I proposed to late last night after I watched this episode was either constant Zimmer, not only like stole this episode, but kind of stole the, like the entire series from me to a certain degree. But more than anything like constant Zimmer

46:55shows up early in the season, I was like, oh, they got constant Zimmer to like play her mom. Okay, that's interesting. What an incredible actress to be in kind of like a thinkless role. And then she had like this speech to give at the wedding. And I was like, okay, I can kind of see my consensus here. But the way that she just like put her hand on the throat of the show for the last like half of this episode, I was like, this is why you hire constant Zimmer. We're still confused. My daughter Logan's here as Teddy Kennedy. I think she's confused why he's here in some of these scenes. I have to imagine there's something cut. Like I have to imagine there was more for him to do that they cut out. I really have to imagine that. But I'm like, okay, I get it. I get my constant Zimmer, you know, is here also in reading some of the behind the scenes stuff, it's clear, you know, as is the case with most older versions of TV shows, they were writing as they were going. So that's not always the case with the limited series. Oftentimes the limited series is fully

47:55written before you start shooting because the episode asks is shorter and the way things get green lit these days, blah, blah. That's not the case with this because Sarah Pigeon has talked about like, oh, we were shooting episode seven, then then we got the script to episode eight. So they hadn't seen all the scripts. And Nina and Brad, we're talking in that Vanny Ferrer interview about how sometimes you understand over the course of a season what you're supporting actors can do. That is something they said, basically in giving the answer about Anne and Caroline in this episode. And so I really think they were like, hell, we got constant Zimmer. Let's use constant Zimmer. That's what it feels like to me. So my only question about that, Joe, is like, have you not seen unreal? You know, like, are you not familiar with her work? Did you aren't enough? Did you not already know? Um, so Mike, the, the, the exercise I proposed to you was, let's come up with a loose list of, so that's why they cast that person in that role kind of performance or as, or like TV closers or something like that, which was like a nebulous prompt. We might come up with some

48:56answers that don't like, again, this was like a late last night ask. Um, but what did you come up with to answer that you want to start with Rob Monning? Yeah, I've got a pretty long list. I think I'm going to start with one we can both agree on, which is Fiona Shaw in and or where Fiona Shaw shows up. And it's like, love Fiona Shaw. Okay. I'm glad she's here. Yeah. And then yeah, when it comes hologram monologue time. Yeah. We're fucking cooking Joe. We're absolutely cooking and counterpoint because of the flip experience Fiona Shaw in true detective night country where I was waiting for this moment. I was waiting for the wise Fiona Shaw here moment. And it just never came. It's interesting because like this, this particular exercise is really for the sickos who spend too much time watching film and television because like, you know, I don't know that the gem pop is out there being like constant Zimmer. But again, but you know, if you know, you know, you know, uh, yeah, this is for the ball knowers. I guess. So like, I will say something very recent. I don't, I don't think you, you watched it, but we did cover it on this feed. Um, in death by

50:00lightning, the, the John Garfield show like so much was made of the cast that showed an incredible cast inside of that show. But Betty Gilpin is there playing the Christian Garfield playing the wife character. Yeah. And this is an answer I came up with a couple of different times where I'm just sort of like, why is Betty Gilpin here? Betty Gilpin who's just like incredible and everything that she does. Why is she here as like the wife? But then spoiler alert for history, John Garfield dies. And it's a very similar role where like she then becomes the emotional fulcrum for the final episode of the show. And I was like, ah, that's why Betty Gilpin is here playing the Christian Garfield. The Christian Garfield is an amazing name though. It was just, just on the sides alone, I might take that part. And he called it, I think he called it Crete. I think that was her nickname. Okay, no Crete. You hate it. Okay. I think that was James James. Come on. I could be wrong. Anyway, that's Betty Gilpin in death by lightning. That's one of my answers. What else you got? I think that's a great one. Hmm. Where do I want to go next? Uh, how about Jake Johnson and Kristen Miliati in

51:03mythic quest? Yeah. Um, which is your familiar with mythic quest like all of the standalone episodes are among the best of the series. Uh, but it's very much like, wait, what, why, why are these people on this random Apple TV show about game design doing a plot that seems to have nothing to do with anything else is happening fast for an hour later. And I am a fucking wreck. I am in pieces. That's one of the best episodes of television. That's really good. It's really, really good. I was trying to figure out a place to put Chris and Miliati on this list because, you know, like would I do it for Fargo or the Penguin or Black Mirror or how am I your mother for that? I was about to say, yeah, that's a different model because it was like an introduction. But yeah, you became very clear very quickly. Like, oh, this is why they cast her. Yeah, she's one of those, those actors. I would definitely call her a TV closer. A term I've just made up. Um, but, uh, similarly to that, to that mythic quest answer, I would say Nick Offerman and Marie Bartlett, who are like, why are you here for one episode of the last of us playing characters inside

52:05the video game, who are just like not even on screen, but like, you know, barely on screen, like via letters, known via letters. And it's like, oh, then you watch a long, long time and you're like, oh, shit. And then Nick Offerman wins an Emmy and Marie Bartlett gets nominated for an Emmy and probably they should have split that Emmy between them. And it's just an incredible hour of television. But you're like, oh, that's why they got from it and Marie Bartlett are here. I have a couple more Joe that like, I don't want to say too much about because talking too much about it would be a spoiler and a sense for a lot of what happens in these shows. I have twist ones too. Okay. What do you have? Uh, so yeah, yeah, do a routine and watch. That's on my list. Hunter, check. Uh, one and then Mr. Robot. I think as a show, we don't talk about a lot, but very clear, very quickly why he's on that show. Um, and also Ted Danson on the good place where like, Ted Danson will just take a random sitcom role now and again, but you can tell when he's really got something to work with. And that show really gives him a lot to work with. Well, let's see if we're not wanting to spoil watchman a show that came out in 2019. We try. Love that about you. Um, similar on a similar note. I mean, we're both weeded heads.

53:10Did you watch Dollhouse, right? I did. Alantutic of Dollhouse. That is, yeah, that is also a like a twist that I don't necessarily, but like that is just sort of like, what is Alantutic doing here? I know. And they're like, you should know. He's a leaf on the wind. He's the only got something. I see why Alantutic is in this episode of Dollhouse. So Amy Acker also, I think of similarly on Dollhouse. There's a lot of like, that's another one where it's like, if you were plugged into the very particular frequency and troop casting of like a weed and verse like property and you see the familiar faces pop up and you're like, that's weird that this person is here and they just don't have a lot to do and then come to Epist, come to penultimate episode. Right. They're given like a huge moment. Who else do you want to highlight here? How about Regina King for the leftovers as well, where it's like, that's another part that on first blush. It's like, what is this? Like, why would Regina King be on a show like this? What places she going to go with this character that seems on surface like kind of bland and then turns it into one of my favorite characters

54:10in television history? And one of my one of the great performances is because it's Regina King. I have a similar, she's so good. This is another like sort of like, it wasn't obscure ball no more, but it was like, I remember I was podcasting about breaking bad and Jesse Plumman shows up in later seasons. And I was like, they got Landry, but the person I was podcasting with had not watched part of it. So he was sort of like, he was just like, oh yeah, this guy's here. He's playing Todd who's just like this kind of this guy who's here. And I was like, yeah, but it's Jesse Plumman. So like, it's got to mean something. And then he had these character as a real turn on that show. And you're like, that's why, that's why you get Landry over here. Jesse Plumman's on breaking bad. That was like a, that was a real like, and it happens a lot in podcasting, I think, because you're just sort of like, you like, really early in a season, you'll like, tab someone and you'll like, have an actor. And you're like, why is this person here? It has to mean something. That's the sort of like law and order, like spoiler casting idea, right? Just sort of like, you have to

55:15be the murderer or a huge red herring to put this person inside of this episode. So they're just two notable at a certain point. I think that's kind of the two categories, right? There's the actors you know and feel overqualified for the material they're given. And then there's sort of the characters that are just sort of lingering around and kind of have stuff to do. But it's never that notable or interesting until all of a sudden it pops and you see what makes that performer really special. I think for that latter category, I also want to shout out Brad Duriff in Deadwood, where Doc Cochrane is like a nice supporting character. And then there's a plot line, late in season one, where Deadwood is like this, you know, emerging frontier town and the minister of this frontier town gets a brain tumor and is not only dying, but an extraordinary pain. And Doc Cochrane, the one doctor in town played by Brad Duriff has this incredible, like pleading with God monologue to kill, like, please let this man die, versibly. That is, I mean, wrecks me every time I see it. I don't know what it is about me or my Catholic upbringing. They gravitate store these like men yelling at God monologues, but here I am

56:18yet again on this podcast, telling people to watch in this case Deadwood. It's really interesting because in the case of Brad Duriff, there is this, because he's like an Oscar nominated actor, right? But there is this question of like, okay, but is it a point in his career where like, this is the best Brad Duriff could get at this point in his career? Has he been forgotten? And Deadwood's like, we didn't forget. We know what Brad Duriff can do. So we're going to let him cook, but you're going to have to wait a minute to get there. Did you have anyone from West Wing? Because like West Wing has so many notable guest stars, but I didn't know that really was the same if like a John Goodman or a Glenn Close shows up, you know, for like a couple episodes. And you're like, I always kind of knew why John Goodman or Glenn Close here or something like that. Do you have any something like that? That almost felt like a different thing to me because it's like John Goodman's not really on the show until he's on the show. And so it's like that is kind of his emergence. And so there's no moment of wondering like, why is John Goodman delivering these random lines that any other actor could deliver? Because of the way he enters it, but you're right, there are a lot of guest stars. I just think it might be like a slightly different categorization. On this very

57:22nebulous idea that I came up with last night. That's what we do around here. I would add. Oh yeah, Carol Burnett in the final season of Better Call Saul. Oh, sure. Like when they talked about casting her, they were like, well, why wouldn't you take the opportunity to work with Carol Burnett in Better Call Saul? But she plays this sort of like daughtering older woman in the entire show. Saul Goodman, Jimmy McGill has had this like way with older older folks, older women, particularly. But then she like, she has such a like climactic pivotal important role to play in the end of that story. But at first, you're just sort of like, oh, did they just like want to hang out with Carol Burnett? So they got her to play this like, would you? Yeah, I sure would. I sure would. What else you have in the list? I have one final one. And it's one that we covered on this feed relatively recently, which is when Sam Rockwell shows up in White Lotus season three. The reason he's on the show, I would assume it's just because Leslie Bibb is on the show.

58:23That's an easy end. You know, you know, a guy who knows a guy, all of a sudden, Sam Rockwell's on your show. But yeah, like he doesn't just show up to show up. He's given some rather meaty material if you'll allow it. And I just think that there's a lot there to, for people like us to unpack, but also to kind of wait for and deliver on a moment like that. Meaty materials is, I'm sorry, you decided to go. It wasn't planned. It just kind of came out that way. Yeah. All right. I will wrap up with this year's Oscar winner for Best Actor as Jesse Buckley on Chernobyl, specifically, I think, because at that point, I had seen her in Wild Rose and more in peace. And she's so good in Wild Rose. I love Wild Rose. And I'd seen her, she did like a live performance of the music from Wild Rose at Southbyte. I was just like, this is person is like so incredible. And then she shows up in Chernobyl, a completely stacked incredible cast of incredible veteran actors. And I was just like, oh, she's new-ish, she's young.

59:24They've just cast her here to play this like wife character. But then the character that she plays, Ludmilla, like, becomes, for me, the emotional just like, like stab me through the heart, asked by a part of Chernobyl, you know, by episode three, you're just sort of like holy shit. But that was one where I was just sort of like, is Jesse Buckley too new that she's just sort of like taking whatever at HBO show? She's very new, but they were like, no, we saw Wild Rose. We saw, we saw, we know what she can do. Don't worry, we're gonna use her. So it's like a don't worry, we're gonna use them kind of thing. So I'm glad that the promise with that with Constance Zimmer was delivered. I mean, when she gets her chance, I would say all of the lead up that we've already talked about in terms of, you know, her conversation with Caroline, her kind of negotiations about the remains, like all that stuff is really powerful. Her at the funeral is something else entirely. And again, it's like, it's a line reading of a poem. And so like, it is put in a different place from the rest of the dialogue of the show. But it floors you in a way that this episode needed

1:00:29something like that. And it needed a character and a performer like her to bring it. And it's one of those things where like, who, you know, we'll see if interviews they reveal this, but like, who knows if the original intention was to have her readings sort of narrate the rest of the show? Or if her reading was so good that they're like, let's make this, you know, what we end with. I just thought that was really strong. And then the, you know, the final shot of them, like, on the beach, like the idea of, I mean, Lauren once again left out in the air. But the idea of bearing them at sea and then like coming and they're still like in the in the world of the show alive and in love and together on the beach. I did think it was like a really beautiful closing image for this series. Totally agree. Okay, we did it. If you have any other of these, like, TV closer performances that you want to shout out, press the TV at Spotify.com. We love, like, getting your suggestions. Thank you to all the people who have watched the pit within the last 24 hours and sent us your suggestions for

1:01:29cute nicknames for doing drugs while, while being a sports person. We've had some really good ones already. You know, some different stuff going on on that podcast. It turns out. It's truly hard to explain. Yeah. We'll be back with our next steps of the pit. And on the horizon, we are definitely covering a beef of the Netflix limited series that's dropping next month. That is something we're really, really excited for. And laughs about their stuff coming up. But we will definitely be wrapping up the last month, I guess, of the pit. It never stops. Thanks to Dev for their work on this podcast. And thank you to Rob Mahoney. Thank you, Jill, your devotion to love stories. And thank you to Katie Rich for for launching this series of us. Absolutely. We will see you soon. Bye.

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