‘Love Story’ Finale: Closing Time

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Hello, welcome back to Prestige TV podcast. I'm Joanna Robinson. I'm Rob Mahoney.

We're here to wrap up a love story. That is the JFK junior Carolyn Bassett story. The finale has aired.

The plane has gone down. We have mourned and we'll be mourning the series. So we're just going to wrap up the finale.

Rob Mahoney, how are you feeling?

Okay. It's hard to know how to feel after a finale like this, where I mean to be honest with you just given the source material and the real life people involved.

I don't know that there's like a great way to make an episode like this. It's just like a really tall order to begin with.

I also don't think that this delivers on everything that it could have been in the case of this episode.

And this is the impossible conundrum. It's like, I don't know how to make this episode. And at the same time, this is the one you have to nail.

I was reading this great interview with Brad Simpson and Nina Jacobson, who were the producers behind this. They also worked on American Crime Story.

I'm like a huge fan of the way that they think about television. They didn't interview with Chris Murphy at Vanity Fair, where they were talking about the challenges of this episode.

Obviously, there are a million challenges. But one of them that they talked about in the finalies of all of these kinds of shows they've done is like,

as a quote from Brad Simpson, he said, the last episode is always a challenge because you're tying what is usually the most known part of the story, right?

This is, you know, like all the details of how Carolyn and JFK met or all this sort of stuff like that.

That is like fertile playground for them. But this is a plane crash that we all know that the plane is going to go down.

So there's no suspense inside of that. So, you know, not that I would want them to try for that.

So what story do you tell? And they talked about how it was always their plan to put the plane crash, the exact, and it is the like precise midway point of this episode.

And I'm curious if you were surprised about how much episode there was before the crash or how did you feel about how they split that up?

I think pleasantly surprised about how much there was before just because I was a little worried we weren't going to get much of John and Carolyn together,

which to me has just been the charge of the whole show, other than getting on the plane and ultimately meeting their demise.

So the idea that, you know, some of it works for me and some of it doesn't, like them in marriage counseling is like a little on the nose at times, but them post marriage counseling,

I think is like fun and evocative and like digging into the parts of their relationship that are interesting to me.

So I'm really glad we got that time and I'm glad in part because I think one of the flaws of this season that really came to roost in this episode is that I don't know the love story ever built out the architecture around John and Carolyn to be like a fully fledged real as show.

And so then when you take them out of it and you have everyone else morning them and trying to make sense of what happened, you understandably feel the absence in the way that you're supposed to, but you also are just like,

so what is this show now? What am I supposed to be waiting for? What am I supposed to be paying attention to? Am I invested in these side characters who to this point have shown up mostly to like dump exposition?

It's a tough spot.

You and I talked about that last week when you talked about how sometimes it feels like they forget these side characters are there until they need to bring them forward to something.

I kind of largely agree with you on that point that I think the foundation around these two has been pretty shaky.

But I actually disagree in that the back half of this episode, which was a constant Zimmer as Carolyn's mom show base made me cry, which I have not been that emotionally invested in this show thus far.

And that's the that performance and those, you know, the trio of scenes, her edge Lasberg scene, her Caroline Kennedy scene, and then the eulogy, the poetry reading at the at the funeral really, really got to me.

And so we're going to talk a bit about constant Zimmer and sort of like that kind of performance, but it really unlocked something for me for this season, which is that I think the writing is not tremendously great for this season.

I think it is quite overblown and we've talked about that a bit, but I think it's sort of it's weird for me to compare to Shakespeare about about to compare to Shakespeare in that if like you go see if you go to Shakespeare play.

And you are watching actors who really understand the emotional truth of what they're saying, you can understand the Shakespeare dialogue, even if you don't are not versed in the vocabulary.

And if you are watching an actor who is just sort of like hitting the I am a pentameter beats, then you're just sort of like at sea with like what are we talking about here.

So for me, like in an ideal world, Grace Gummer is Caroline Kennedy, like this is her episode, right? Like in an ideal world and an ideal performance and she is so much, she's carrying so much of the back half of this episode.

That is a performance that like didn't really fully click for me. And I think she has a tough job here because Caroline Kennedy is a very reserved person. So she is like playing a very reserved person, whereas like the role of Ann Freeman, Caroline's mom is like allowed to be as emotional as possible.

But like in that scene and, you know, I'm going to sort of want to zig and zag around constant simmer, this thing that really worked for me, but like inside that one on one scene, that lengthy one on one scene that they have inside of Carolyn and JK's apartment, you know,

it has to lift some really clunker lines, like my faith has allowed me to make sense of this world, helping me to understand the big existential questions, but now there's just deafening silence. I mean, how do you live in a world that doesn't make any sense that something she says and we talked before about how these characters don't speak the way that humans speak, but there's something about the emotionality of how she delivered that completely completely connected with me, but then like Caroline then has to come back with a line like all we know is that time doesn't belong to us.

Nothing is promised, which is like an insane thing for a human to have to say, and like I like Grace Gummer in general as a as a performance, but like it really struck out to me that like that they're both given this like very flowery clunky dialogue and one of them is just like nailing me in the heart with the emotion and then

the other one is kind of missing and I was like, oh, that unlocks the whole season for me because like Sarah Pigeon can just like nail this shit and then Paul Kelly can like sometimes do it. I was in a novella can nail this shit and just like not everyone around them can so like when you have a performer that can just

bore into the emotional truth of this story, I'm like in and I'm invested, but unfortunately that's only here and there inside of this season overalls where I let out I think I think the contrast you're highlighting within that scene of those two women in particular is just so tough like it really like flashing back and forth as they are delivering that dialogue you feel the palpable difference and you nailed it, so I think just not only believing and understanding the emotionality as a performer and managing to channel it through the world.

This I just I wrote down so many Caroline lines in this episode because she she in particular is given just some absolutely horrific ones. Yeah, but that's part of it, but it's also just like part of the larger project of making a TV show or making a movie like the smoke and mirrors are the magical part and so much that when we talk about things like suspension of disbelief, I think we get bogged down in like plot mechanics right is this plot believable, but so much of it is like what takes you out of the magic of the moment.

And Constance Zimmer is constantly reeling you back in with the emotion with like with her performance is just so so dialed in and I think where I want to extend.

I mean Grace gumber a little grace if you allow it is you know I was talking to dev before for this pod about the initial moment when Caroline finds out about the plane.

Yeah, and in that moment I think she's terrific and there's not a lot of dialogue in that scene and I don't think that's an accident and as soon as it becomes time where she has to deliver.

I mean just at absolute best things that are so painfully direct they're just like stating the themes of the show.

It does her no favors is doing no one in the show any favors and all of the smoke and mirrors in the magic just leads the room.

So if anything you mentioned that because you know we talk about this sometimes we talk about the pit where we're just like the pit just says the thing right and we're just like okay.

This episode so just says the thing so many times and I think the worst one actually is given to Constance Zimmer when she is talking about Caroline and how she says like.

She became someone she didn't recognize right and then she says that person will be immortalized forever I only wish she had lived long enough to be remembered for something else and then that is just the show.

Padding itself back to be like hey we get equal time to John and Carolyn if anything we gave more attention to Carolyn than we get to John and aren't we better than time magazine and all the other press that like you know buried not only Carolyn but Lauren like when win win and their mother is talking

to edge lossberg across that name she's like you haven't even mentioned my other daughter who died in this crash thinking about Carolyn I was talking to a pal of mine Katie rich who did the first episode of our coverage with me and we were sort of texting last night when we were watching the episode and she reminded me and I had forgotten that Caroline Kennedy's daughter talking on a

simple iceberg just died at the end of December at like they age 35 really young from leukemia so it's just like you think about Caroline Kennedy like you think about JFK Jr. and and everything they.

You know tell us about the tragedy of losing his father that young age all of the expectations all of these things but then you think about Caroline again in this episode who like so clearly then has to deal with losing her brother yes and then we know the extra textual information that she like lost her her daughter and it's just like.

thinking, I was just projecting a lot of that knowledge about Caroline Kennedy onto the performance,

but overall, I think, I think this episode would really knocked me off my feet if that Caroline

performance had really been able to connect with me the same way the Anne depiction did at the end

of here. That's one area where I feel like they did a good job of boiling down a lot of these

people to an essential struggle, an essential quality, right? Like, what is the thing about Caroline

Kennedy that is interesting that we want to dig into? And this idea that she is experiencing

profound loss across her life, across years, and in ways that are shocking and that no

human being would be equipped to deal with, that's something really interesting to just dive into

as a writer. And then they never did the part where you kind of hide it. It's just like, it's just

going to be text. We're just going to say it that it just never felt, it never felt, it never

feels earned when you just put it out there. I think that's part of the problem. And Caroline

all throughout the season, I think has been put in spots to have conversations that are just not

that interesting. And if you'll indulge me one other line reading Joe, the one you read from

Constance Zimmer, I actually, she's so good in delivering it. She tricked me into thinking,

is this a good line? I know, I know what I'm saying. She's so good that even like a clunker like that,

you're like, I was like choked up. Anyway, sorry. The Caroline one that really got me was,

and I think one of the big flaws at this episode are the two parallel sister conversations that

happen with Carolyn and John talking to their sisters, neither of which just work because they're

so direct. And while Caroline is talking to John, she says, you met someone who wasn't willing to

contort to what you needed and you fell in love. And now those qualities, that fire, that self

possession, aren't serving you anymore. And you're crying foul, are you fucking kidding me?

That scene was tough, honestly, like quite tough. All right, let's go back to the beginning. So,

I want to go back actually to the very beginning of the show because something that Katie and I

talked about, and I think you and I talked touched about on this a little bit last week,

was like the decision to start with the tarmac, start with them getting on the plane in episode one,

but actually where episode one starts is inside the manicure scene. And so to think about the

decision to put us so inside Carolyn's head of her anxiety. Why? Like, first of all, she's being

hunted by the paparazzi. So we get the, you know, the flash bulbs and the shouts from the streets.

And then we watched the reason why she not only went to get her nails done, but got them redone

inside of that that appointment is this tremendous anxiety and pressure to fit in with the

Kennedys and be accepted. And we know what it was like for her to go to Hannah's port before and

all of this sort of stuff like that. And so putting us inside her head. And then I didn't know,

like watching that scene, I didn't know what we have her mother reveal later in the episode,

which is that the, you know, there is a version of the story in the press that

Carolyn's vanity, you know, and the way that she spits out that word her vanity, right?

That Carolyn's vanity is what delayed the flight, which is what caused the crash, etc.

And and sort of reframing of that is like, actually, as you're fucked up,

fuck up brother, who like, you know, was was doing something beyond his guilt set, but to,

to, to start with that manicure scene and to start with a so inside of her head and to watch

her be like shaky and hunted and all these things that she was inside of that moment,

I thought that was like a really smart thread that I didn't see coming because I didn't know

that aspect of the meeting narrative, you know? Yeah, I think the closing of a couple of

different loops within this finale were very effective. Yeah, revisiting some of that cold

open stuff, even the way they kind of reintroduce and return to like the first date with all of the

context and all that they've been through. I found to be really powerful and effective. And so

there's a lot of like groundwork being laid within their relationship in the season that really

pays off it. Yeah, it's more for me about everything else around it. And then once they're gone,

how are we, how are we making a show at that point?

Yeah, the, the return to the restaurant, I, I loved because I identified like that was my

favorite scene. And I think it remains my favorite scene of the entire show because I do think,

you know, and, and you had texted me when you started watching the show like I'm in like

their chemistry and their chemistry is so important. And again, even as that has

faltered in the last couple episodes for me, I go back to that scene and that date and their

connection and, and how like, I talk about this all the time when I talk about like a

flea back season two, how flea back season two is a show that like had me actively like

leaning closer to the screen as I was watching it because I was just like so drawn in and so

invested by the chemistry. Like that's God tier, of course, like level, you know, how dare I

talk about flea back season two inside the context of this. But I did find myself in that initial

scene. Yeah, leaning, leaning towards the screen sort of like wanting to be a part of that

conversation. And, and so I, I didn't find it cheap at all. I thought it was really well done

the way they went back to it inside of this episode. And even returns like some of the very

specific conversation they were having, not just like, you know, the bit about the laminated

menu, but the signs over their respective heads and kind of like what, what they are putting out

in the world and what they're withholding from the world, which is such a core part of both

of these characters in the way they've been presented this season, right? Who is, who is

interested in projecting what to whom is one of the central concerns of the show?

Right. But again, Sarah Pigeon is so good that when she's like, the sign actually reads like,

she's not as tough as she thinks. And you're like, okay, um, yeah. Okay. So let's, let's,

let's get to the crash. This is something that I had a lot of preparation about. I mean,

something that I think we mentioned, but I want to underline how strange it is. They did not release

this episode to press. They might have like made a few exceptions because, you know, like VF had

their interview with the producers up like fairly quickly. So like, you know, I think there are like

a few media outlets who had it early for the most part. They held this screener back from press,

from I heard like internally inside of, you know, like, like, you know, it was just something that

they were hiding the ball on. And like, you know, that's really rare, especially this day and age.

And especially like with the show, well, it's based on a true story where everyone knows what's

going to have like to bring people inside baseball a little bit. You might do this with game of

thrones, right? You might do this with a big end big surprise ending of some kind. They don't

even do it with a game of thrones. Like they used to do it. I would say that they used to do it with

like game of thrones. They didn't give out screeners at all for like the last couple seasons or like,

like better call Saul is one where they like held back or something like that. So there's like a few

exceptions. But like for the most part these days, the networks and the streaming companies like

need the press a bit more than they used to just to like get the word of just to permeate in the media

landscape. And so I'm seeing less of a like, you can't have these episodes from streamers than I

then I used to like 10 years ago. And so I was just like, I wasn't upset about it. I was just like

quite surprised because I was like, we all know there's a plane crash. So then I was, you know,

it set my wheels turning. I was like, okay, are they, are they just like worried about how people

are going to respond to possible crash? And you know, in that interview and Nina and Brad,

the producers did say like, oh, yeah, we're brazed. You know, the Kennedy family is not going to be

happy about this. But for all of the conversations that the show has taken us behind closed doors to

conversation, we couldn't possibly know the content of. We certainly could not possibly know

what the conversation was like inside of that plane, right? Because it's just those three people

and those three people did not make it out of that plane crash alive. So they really have to figure out

how they want to tell that if they even want to take us into that cockpit, how long do they want to

put us in there? And what do they want to show us? And what we do know is is the sort of the recap

that we get the spatial disorientation diagnosis. Like that is a, uh, the accepted diagnosis of

what happened in this flight that that John who was not a super, super, super experienced fire,

there was Hayes, there was darkness, other people were flying that night, described it,

described the conditions, spatial disorientation, which is something I had never heard of is like,

you know, they described it really well in the show. It's like going under a wave, you just like

lose your sense. And I think they did a really good job with him. But the question and, and we

were talking about this a little bit before we started recording, but like the question is of

Lauren and Carolyn inside of that moment, because both Lauren and the backseat and Carolyn here

in the front seat with him are like experiences sort of like zen, just breathe reaction to it,

which, you know, is definitely is certainly a choice. What do you make of that as like a decision

to interpret how they would have responded? It does it sit well with you? What do you think?

I think part of the reason why it sits, it sits okay with me. I'm not thrilled. I'm not thrilled

frankly about anything in terms of that scene and what's going on in the cockpit. And I think

some of that is by design, because I, you know, we've been talking about this show, Joe and the way

it's drawn and the way it's written and the way it's structured. And I think we need to acknowledge,

like for some people, the entire premise of making a show like this is disgusting, right? Like

taking real life tragedy, dramatizing it to a degree that for me personally, like I don't mind

a fictional, like a lightly to medium fictionalized version of a person to create a different portrayal

of a character of a life person. Like I'm totally cool with it. I think even for someone like me,

taking us into the cockpit and having them say anything big or important in what would be

the final moments of their lives would feel like really distasteful. And so then you're,

you're again caught in this conundrum of like, are we going to show this at all? Which I do think

in the experience of watching it, the sort of like meta-tension of, are they actually going to

show this plane go down? Are they actually going to show a collision, unexplosion? Are we going to

see these people die on screen? I think it puts viewers in a really odd spot. And not necessarily

a bad one, but one that also might contribute to them withholding just to make sure no one knows

going in what they're walking into at this episode. And then once you have that meta-tension,

how do you resolve it in a way that doesn't feel gross? I really don't know what they were supposed

to do there. Yeah, I mean, the option is to just not show them, you know, show them getting into

the plane, but not in the cockpit at all. But the disorientation, I do feel like not only telling

us that it's like going under a wave, but feeling and seeing the lack of visibility from the plane.

I do think it really does kind of anchor you in that sort of panic, but then when the characters

aren't responding with panic, I think that's where you're getting that sort of dissociation

you're mentioning. I think it's interesting that this description they have inside of the

episode, spatial disorientation based on your impaired brain rather than your reality,

being taken under by a wave. Showing Paul Kelly's performance is John in that moment where we're

watching this crinkled brow, this almost head empty no thoughts. We've talked about the way in

which John is, you know, the hunk flunk sort of like this kind of dummy performance to a certain

degree. I wish, you know, for all of us saying they just wouldn't said the thing, I wish they had

tied that in a way that made better sense to me inside of the themes of John and his, I mean,

it's there inside of the show, this idea like based on your impaired brain rather than your reality.

And Carolyn constantly saying like you're the way in which privilege has inoculated from you from

the world, your experience with a paparazzi is different from my experience with a paparazzi.

Your experience at Hiannesport is different from my experience at Hiannesport. You have gone through

life, expecting that people things will work out for you and so they have. And so there is a way in

which the show is sort of laid track for like that's his demise, right? His demise is he's unable

to actually connect with reality and he's in that cockpit in the first place because he thinks he

can do something that he is actually not fully trained to do. So all of that is in the text of the

show. I just wish I didn't get, I didn't emotionally connect to that like, oh no, here it is this like

tragic flaw inside of this person taking not only taking him down, but taking these two women

down with him. Yes. I don't feel like they really sort of made that a character beat as much as I

wanted it to be. It felt more circumstantial inside of the moment. Do you know what I mean?

I completely agree with you. I think a lot of a lot of those moments in the plane feel so

tepid in a way that yeah, you're waiting for some reaction, some response in either direction,

whether it's misplaced certainty or outright panic, but like you never really get to any of those

notes. I do just think this is one of those areas though where I wonder if they got a little

squeamish about putting thoughts into those characters heads in that moment and it is as simple as that

of like in theory, I agree with you. If these were totally fictional characters tying a story beat

to the way that they ultimately pass and like the decisions they make leading up to it,

that's a good storytelling. Can you do that here? And frankly, do you have the guts to do it

with a story that means this much to so many people? It's a lot. It's a lot to ask and it's a lot

to put out there. I think yes, but on the other hand, we were talking about this last week. Any time

you've seen a Diana story happen, her death, and they talked about this a lot in the crown when

they finally did the Diana death moment inside of the crown where they were like, we didn't want to

go into that tunnel with them. So we didn't go into the tunnel. We followed them up until the

tunnel and then we were like, we're not going to go into there. And we're not going to show you

what the final moments were inside of the car. We're going to show you a bit, but we're not going

to show you like it. So there are ways in which the crown got squeamish about this thing if they

had to do, but there are also ways in which that story, the hunting of Diana, that is such a clear

like this is the narrative we've been spending so far. My brain slightly please forgive me

survivor, cooked right now, but like while watching, sorry, so sorry to take us on the left

turn to survivor, but like watching survivor 50 is an exercise in watching reality TV editing,

because every episode of survivor, someone their game is over. And so it is the job of the editors

to show you what are the fatal mistakes that they made along the way. So like we as viewers are

watching episodes in advance, you start sort of tracking these narratives and you're like, what,

you know, what are they trying to show us? Stakes are obviously incredibly different on survivor

versus this, but like tying these final moments of Carolyn just saying like just breathe back to

John showing up at her apartment earlier in the season, panicking about his mother's death. And her

that moment of their beginning of their relationship, real beginning of their relationship,

not their first date, but they're just sort of like just breathe him trying to kiss her,

her being like, what are you doing? Not like this slow down, slow down. That's that's a sort of

attempted close of another loop that they tried to do here. But again, I I think I'm with you

where I just felt like wrong being in the cockpit at all with them, you know, I don't think there

was any waiting for trying for them here, you know, I think it made this in better off if we did not

to rewrite the show, but if we had cut off at a different point in terms of our access to those

characters, in part because of the potential culpability involved, right? Like the plane goes down

in part because John is not equipped to fly it in that moment. And this is to me the biggest

difference with the Diana story, right? Like there is a level of you don't want to go in the tunnel

with Diana just because of how horrible it is and turns out, but she is the victim, like purely the

victim of those circumstances. John is at minimum, our participant in his own death in the killing of

these two women. And so, or the death of these two women, I should say, which I think just makes

the whole exercise like that much mercier and that much messier in terms of unpacking exactly

what these characters are going through in that second. But if you're going to make the show,

you have to be ready to wrestle with those things. And so those those objections, like the problems

that we're having, those are the arguments you raised before, you know, even pick up this show

in the first place. Right. Maybe when you're cracking the story in the first place, but if it's all

here in the finale and it's not delivering on again, the one thing you have to get ready,

it's hard to not hold that against the show. I'm thinking a lot about American crime story, the OJ

season. Just the very best version of what they've done here, and especially with things like

and talking inside this episode about how she wished, you know, the world had better understood

her daughter, the the extremely sexist sort of like it was her vanity, it was her manicure that

caused the crash or whatever the case may be, you know, versus the much, I actually think

subtler way that the OJ season took a character of person like Marsha Clark as portrayed by Sarah

Paulson and just showed us didn't tell us but just showed us the extremely nasty sexist

tabloid coverage of her as a person inside when she is like, you know, the avenging angel of this

story and is painted in this way. But also that show had a really hard needle to thread because

of the OJ case, we're not going to like show the murder, we're not going to say one way or another

whether he did it because we can't say that. So we can only tell you a story where you have to draw

your own conclusions about what actually happened there. Again, because you know, a man and a woman

died and you know, a family is devastated and a nation is enthralled but like all of these stories,

American crime stories, this which is essentially an American crime story even though it's

positioned as a love story, it's job is also to hold a mirror up to us as sort of like why do we

have these ghoulish fascinations, why do we have these like when you watch the crowd of people

outside of John and Carolyn's apartment and they're sort of like ecstasy of grief, you know,

and I mean this just sort of like what it means for us psychologically to just sort of like

marinate in this public deification or grief and all this sort of stuff like that and then

Caroline as this like singular actually emotionally affected person walking like

parting that crowd and walking through it. I thought that image was really again a dialogue

moment that image was like really potent inside of this episode. And I think this is why overall

the decision for this season to focus so much more on Carolyn as opposed to even the internal

thoughts and feelings of John, I think pays off in huge ways throughout the season and including

in those ideas, right? If you're going to show a mirror, if you're going to hold up a mirror to us

and ask us to interrogate tabloid culture and why we're interested in cases and deaths like this

and why not just as there's this crowd of people outside their apartment, but it's almost like

one crowd has been substituted for another of like the paparazzi was there and now it's these

mourners and still just a big crowd of people out there. And Carolyn is the one who has to reckon

with all of those differences in her life. For John, these are just facts, right? Like the paparazzi

will follow him wherever he goes. Carolyn is the one who is affected on a psychological level to

the point that she becomes a shut-in to the point that she's second-guessing herself that she is

picking a new color for her nails at the salon to fit in because she doesn't want to be too

ostentatious. It's like she is the avatar for so much of what we're meant to take away and interrogate

within the show. And if you're going to pick a character to do it and an actor to do it, like

Sarah Pigeon delivered on all of that stuff at a really high level, I wish the rest of the show

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On a sidebar, I'm sure you did because you're a person alive who looks at the internet sometimes.

You saw the the photos this week of the rock in the Moana live.

Of course. Right. Okay. And so like the way I've heard Joe multiple people in my life ask if I

have heard from you about the rock wig watch. Yeah. I heard from our pals Nora and Jody about it,

like, you know, about my, like, expert take on the wig watch of the rock. But but it got a,

you know, something I think that it was like I think something that Nora, Nora Pertiotti,

I think said to me is like, she was like, Wigs have both gotten like much, much better and then

also way, they're either way, way worse or much, much better. And there's no like sort of like,

it's kind of fine middle ground anymore. And so I was thinking about Carolyn Beset inside of this

about Sarah Pigeon because like Sarah Pigeon is a, is a woman with dark hair with such like a

supporting character in the season, not just the way that she was constantly like flipping around

and playing with it. I mean, one of the great hair flippers of all time. I really just put it

out there. I really agree. But also the way in which like she goes from this like sort of dirty

blonde color to this like flat ironed platinum platinum blonde sort of like grace Kelly manicured

Barbie, which is what Carolyn, Carolyn, Carolyn Beset, Kenny also did in her life, of course.

So I was like, I was like, was that I was like, what was the wig and what wasn't was like something

I was I was like, surely this exists somewhere. They put her in this wig as because I was like when

they when they showed us the manicure scene again, I was like, that's a wig. I was like, that is a

wig. And so what I found out is that they had put out a photo of her in that wig. And the internet

did not like it. And so they were like, Oh, no, we're going to have a problem. Her hair is so iconic.

So what they did for sort of the rest of the show is they and Rob forgive me for taking you so

deep on this. But no, Joe, what else do we have? How deep can we go? They put 400 K-tip extensions

in her hair. So they used her natural hair. They they dyed it blonde or but they put 400 individual

extensions in her hair, which would have taken just an unfathomable amount of time.

That's like a Frankenstein level costume commitment. That's it's so like so they wanted to like

judge up her hair and make it look like, you know, and they did like I was obsessed with watching

her hair. And but it's also kind of her natural hair. So she can like flip it around. Her

hair line looks real, but there's like 400 extra strands. They individually placed inside of there.

And so by like it to go back to this sort of like leaning into Paul Kelly as this sort of like

empty suit depiction of Dave K Jr. leaning into her hair or being like this natural part of who

this physical woman is versus this like wig that looks kind of wiggy on top of her in these

final moments is like a great sort of meta, you know, way to tell this story of this woman who

becomes a Barbie, you know, at the end of the day. It's so true. I mean, yeah, it does kind of

complete the look and complete the picture. I just keep coming back to Paul Kelly though. Like I

I the chemistry is so real and very palpable. And I think they're obviously scenes and extended

stretches of the season that really, really clicked for me because of the magic between the best

performers. I left this episode wondering though because I feel like he's just kind of overexposed

over the course of the season. If this had been a movie instead of a limited series and it's

it's a two hour runtime in which he is JFK Jr. And yeah, he has like some monologues and some big

reactions that maybe he delivers well or he doesn't whatever it may be, but we're just the pure

volume of it. Feel more manageable and feel like something that fits within the context of the

movie better as opposed to what we get on screen. What do you think of that idea?

Uh, love it. I had a similar idea, but it was just that this season should have been shorter.

This season should have been six episodes max is what is what I think and I think that would have

helped solve the problem. I also think like a lot of things should be movies instead of limited

series these days. So I'm not I'm not objecting to it at all, but let's not let's not take away

from our livelihood. You know, you need a number of limited series. So like let's not call

keep things going through the machine, but prestige movie podcasts. That's true. But yeah, I think

also like it really clicks something from you when I found out that like he was such a last minute

ditch casting effort for them that they like did not they had their other actors and they did not

have a john and they and they finally cast him. I was thinking a lot in this final episode of like

what if they had cast someone who looked looked less like him, but just was a better actor,

you know what I mean? And just sort of like sacrifice that sort of like facsimile

yeah, attempt for someone who could better match their epigen's ability, because if you think

about someone like I mean, I you know, I go back to the crown and it's just sort of like

Joshua Conner both does and doesn't at all look like a younger Prince Charles, but Joshua Conner

as young Prince Charles is like one of the best things I've ever seen on television. Yeah,

and I think it's like more important to get that performance than it is, especially if you're doing

what you said, which is taking dramatic liberties with a real person, you're not giving us a

documentary, you're giving us the framework of a story we know and then you have written these

behind the scenes moments or tried to make larger character arcs that are tidier than an actual

human character arc would be and for the sake of the drama, I support all of that.

Then I think you can get a little like loose with who you put in that role and especially

we talked about this with the trap American crime story eventually fold it and fell into,

which is like you really don't need to put like prosthetics on these people, you really don't need to

like, you know, SNL any of this stuff. So I think, you know, Paul Kelly who looks so much like

Jacob Jr. or a young Richard gear, but then you think about like what a young Richard gear would

do with this role and you're like, fuck, that's just like in the stratosphere of a better show

than the one we got. So it would have been something else. I mean, I think first of all,

like I don't blame anybody who would be in the room with Paul Kelly at any point or seeing him

on like a test like the magnetism that that man must have in a room has to be incredibly powerful.

And I do think he pulls off a lot of this part just not the parts that would really elevate it

into being like an all-time thing you would return to over and over. And the contrast point,

I'm glad you brought up the crown because something that I was reminded of in the first episodes

of this show was one of my favorite parts of the crown, which is the the Princess Margaret

Tony meeting of Matthew Goodvinesse Kirby and like how charged that episode is I mean,

holy shit, just smoldering stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Matthew Good does not look like Antony Armstrong

Jones. Basically at all, as far as I can tell, like no resemblance whatsoever, but to your point

is one of my favorite working performers and is like so compelling on screen. I think you raised

a great idea of like this might have been a case where you accept some of the trade-offs,

someone who's like also very handsome, but handsome in a different way or has a different kind

of energy, I think might have also worked here. And I think you would have posed, you know,

you're like not to rewrite the show, but I'm like not to recast the show, but I think you would have

what else do we do with the ringer, honestly? But like I think that it would have posed a lot of

problems for them initially because they got a lot of shit from the internet large anyway for like

she doesn't look enough like Carolyn. She's not as stylish as Carolyn. There was all of this pushback

of the set photos. And Nina and Brad talked about this in the interview where they're like,

oh, ho, ho, how the tables have turned. Everyone thought we were doing a shit job, but now people

are putting kangle hats on their dogs. Like, you know, we've really done, we really did it.

So like I love I love Nina and Brad. So I love that for them. But like I do think they would have

gotten a bunch of like what the fuck do you mean? You've cast this person as JFK Junior. He doesn't

look like him at all. So then if the performance is, you know, outstanding, then I think it quiets

all of those initial questions. That has happened time and time and again with casting. So

it would have it would have caused more problems from them up front, but I think would have

paid off better dividends. But like, you know, they're sitting here with a very successful show. So

they're like, what the fuck do I know? Rob and Joanna, I don't know. So yeah, I think a lot of

overhitting in my experience watching this season is like the first couple episodes. I think

Sarah Pigeon and Paul Kelly and really the execution of the show made a lot of this stuff look really

easy. The set design is so good. The period stuff is so great. We talked about the soundtrack.

Their chemistry clicks right out of the gate. At least it for me. Yeah. And then the deeper you go

into the season, you realize, oh, this is really hard to pull off. Like this is going to be really

hard to wrap up in a way that feels complete and substantive and fair to the people involved and

also delivers on the promise of like giving us a fuller portrait of the like a version of these

characters that's been refracted through memoir and time and our understanding of these people.

But it's like, I don't know how you do all that. I keep coming back to it over and over, but I think

this show might have just been an impossible task. And they took a stab at it and sometimes

they're successful and sometimes weren't. I think one thing that really did, I mean, Sarah,

I think is solid rock solid throughout, but I think really did Paul a favor in the first couple

episodes is like how I still think the worst part of the season is Naomi Watts is as Jackio.

I think that was like genuinely like terrible performance from an an act of side love.

On all time. Like it's she has some of these. This is not the only one Naomi Watts, like she

takes some swings. We respected. I respect. I respect the ambition of what she often tries to do.

This one did not work at all. But I thought she was so

bad. We love in respect. I think we can call it. Yeah, let's call what it is.

That I was like, well, as soon as Jackie's gone, this show is just going to get a lot better.

I think that's what I thought I was just like and like all that's what all John's girlfriend's

thought to apparently. Daryl Hannah certainly hoped that. But yeah, but then

but then her absence then made me focus closer on on Paul's performance, which then sort of

started to feel fair for me. All right, anything else you want to say about this episode before

we get to this little like side quest. I've decided we should go on inside of this podcast.

I want to give like one little shout out before I move on, Joe, to the scoring for this show,

like the the central theme. The theme is so good. It's so good. And I think over the course of

this show proved to be just incredibly versatile where you change the key a little bit, you slow it

down, you speed it up, you you layer it with other sound in kind of the soundscape. And all of a

sudden, it can be first date music, be cute music, it can be like your mother just died music,

it can be we're at the funeral for John and Carolyn music, like somehow in the fact that that

core melody could play on all those situations. I mean, Bryce Desner from the national score of this

show, I just think did a pretty amazing job with it. It was so good in those first couple episodes,

it was so remarkably good in that it felt immediately like recognizable. I'm like historically

kind of terrible at like, you know, in shows like Game of Thrones, like those composers will,

you know, compose individual character themes that will like come up again and again. And I'm like

kind of historically terrible at identifying them. I have friends who could be like, oh my god,

did you hear how they blended Brianna's theme with the Jamie's theme? And I'm like, no, I didn't,

I could not tell. I'm like, I'm I'm a depth to that kind of stuff. But the theme for this show was

so immediately like memorable that I was like, did they still, I was like, is this lifted from

something else? Yeah, did they pull it? Yeah, I was like, is this, you know, did they do what

they were doing? And I used to put like the theme to stargate in every single movie trailer. And

you're just like, yeah, I feel it. But I love how did you ever see that show? The adventures of

Briscoe County, Jr. Do you know what I'm talking about? I think you know I did, Rob. I think you know,

of course I did. I'm glad that you did. In part because the theme for that show just became like

the theme for the Olympics somehow over time. It's like the way this stuff gets repurposed is

truly remarkable. Right, but this one, this is a, this is distinct. Yeah, they really really nailed

it with that. Okay, the side quest that I proposed to late last night after I watched this episode

was either constant Zimmer, not only like stole this episode, but kind of stole the,

like the entire series from me to a certain degree. But more than anything like constant Zimmer

shows up early in the season, I was like, oh, they got constant Zimmer to like play her mom. Okay,

that's interesting. What an incredible actress to be in kind of like a thinkless role. And then she

had like this speech to give at the wedding. And I was like, okay, I can kind of see my consensus

here. But the way that she just like put her hand on the throat of the show for the last like half

of this episode, I was like, this is why you hire constant Zimmer. We're still confused. My

daughter Logan's here as Teddy Kennedy. I think she's confused why he's here in some of these scenes.

I have to imagine there's something cut. Like I have to imagine there was more for him to do

that they cut out. I really have to imagine that. But I'm like, okay, I get it. I get my constant

Zimmer, you know, is here also in reading some of the behind the scenes stuff, it's clear,

you know, as is the case with most older versions of TV shows, they were writing as they were going.

So that's not always the case with the limited series. Oftentimes the limited series is fully

written before you start shooting because the episode asks is shorter and the way things get green

lit these days, blah, blah. That's not the case with this because Sarah Pigeon has talked about like,

oh, we were shooting episode seven, then then we got the script to episode eight. So they hadn't

seen all the scripts. And Nina and Brad, we're talking in that Vanny Ferrer interview about how

sometimes you understand over the course of a season what you're supporting actors can do.

That is something they said, basically in giving the answer about Anne and Caroline in this episode.

And so I really think they were like, hell, we got constant Zimmer. Let's use constant Zimmer.

That's what it feels like to me. So my only question about that, Joe, is like, have you not seen

unreal? You know, like, are you not familiar with her work? Did you aren't enough? Did you not

already know? Um, so Mike, the, the, the exercise I proposed to you was, let's come up with a loose

list of, so that's why they cast that person in that role kind of performance or as, or like

TV closers or something like that, which was like a nebulous prompt. We might come up with some

answers that don't like, again, this was like a late last night ask. Um, but what did you come up with

to answer that you want to start with Rob Monning? Yeah, I've got a pretty long list. I think I'm

going to start with one we can both agree on, which is Fiona Shaw in and or where Fiona Shaw shows

up. And it's like, love Fiona Shaw. Okay. I'm glad she's here. Yeah. And then yeah, when it comes

hologram monologue time. Yeah. We're fucking cooking Joe. We're absolutely cooking and counterpoint

because of the flip experience Fiona Shaw in true detective night country where I was waiting

for this moment. I was waiting for the wise Fiona Shaw here moment. And it just never came.

It's interesting because like this, this particular exercise is really for the sickos who

spend too much time watching film and television because like, you know, I don't know that the

gem pop is out there being like constant Zimmer. But again, but you know, if you know, you know,

you know, uh, yeah, this is for the ball knowers. I guess. So like, I will say something very

recent. I don't, I don't think you, you watched it, but we did cover it on this feed. Um, in death by

lightning, the, the John Garfield show like so much was made of the cast that showed an incredible

cast inside of that show. But Betty Gilpin is there playing the Christian Garfield playing the

wife character. Yeah. And this is an answer I came up with a couple of different times where I'm

just sort of like, why is Betty Gilpin here? Betty Gilpin who's just like incredible and everything

that she does. Why is she here as like the wife? But then spoiler alert for history, John Garfield

dies. And it's a very similar role where like she then becomes the emotional fulcrum for the final

episode of the show. And I was like, ah, that's why Betty Gilpin is here playing the Christian Garfield.

The Christian Garfield is an amazing name though. It was just, just on the sides alone, I might take

that part. And he called it, I think he called it Crete. I think that was her nickname. Okay, no

Crete. You hate it. Okay. I think that was James James. Come on. I could be wrong. Anyway, that's

Betty Gilpin in death by lightning. That's one of my answers. What else you got? I think that's a

great one. Hmm. Where do I want to go next? Uh, how about Jake Johnson and Kristen Miliati in

mythic quest? Yeah. Um, which is your familiar with mythic quest like all of the standalone episodes

are among the best of the series. Uh, but it's very much like, wait, what, why, why are these people

on this random Apple TV show about game design doing a plot that seems to have nothing to do with

anything else is happening fast for an hour later. And I am a fucking wreck. I am in pieces.

That's one of the best episodes of television. That's really good. It's really, really good.

I was trying to figure out a place to put Chris and Miliati on this list because, you know, like

would I do it for Fargo or the Penguin or Black Mirror or how am I your mother for that?

I was about to say, yeah, that's a different model because it was like an introduction. But

yeah, you became very clear very quickly. Like, oh, this is why they cast her. Yeah, she's one of those,

those actors. I would definitely call her a TV closer. A term I've just made up. Um, but, uh,

similarly to that, to that mythic quest answer, I would say Nick Offerman and Marie Bartlett,

who are like, why are you here for one episode of the last of us playing characters inside

the video game, who are just like not even on screen, but like, you know, barely on screen,

like via letters, known via letters. And it's like, oh, then you watch a long, long time and you're

like, oh, shit. And then Nick Offerman wins an Emmy and Marie Bartlett gets nominated for an Emmy

and probably they should have split that Emmy between them. And it's just an incredible

hour of television. But you're like, oh, that's why they got from it and Marie Bartlett are here.

I have a couple more Joe that like, I don't want to say too much about because talking too much

about it would be a spoiler and a sense for a lot of what happens in these shows. I have twist

ones too. Okay. What do you have? Uh, so yeah, yeah, do a routine and watch. That's on my list.

Hunter, check. Uh, one and then Mr. Robot. I think as a show, we don't talk about a lot, but

very clear, very quickly why he's on that show. Um, and also Ted Danson on the good place where like,

Ted Danson will just take a random sitcom role now and again, but you can tell when he's really

got something to work with. And that show really gives him a lot to work with.

Well, let's see if we're not wanting to spoil watchman a show that came out in 2019.

We try. Love that about you. Um, similar on a similar note. I mean, we're both weeded heads.

Did you watch Dollhouse, right? I did.

Alantutic of Dollhouse. That is, yeah, that is also a like a twist that I don't necessarily,

but like that is just sort of like, what is Alantutic doing here? I know. And they're like, you

should know. He's a leaf on the wind. He's the only got something. I see why Alantutic is in this

episode of Dollhouse. So Amy Acker also, I think of similarly on Dollhouse. There's a lot of like,

that's another one where it's like, if you were plugged into the very particular frequency

and troop casting of like a weed and verse like property and you see the familiar faces pop up

and you're like, that's weird that this person is here and they just don't have a lot to do and then

come to Epist, come to penultimate episode. Right. They're given like a huge moment.

Who else do you want to highlight here? How about Regina King for the leftovers as well,

where it's like, that's another part that on first blush. It's like, what is this? Like,

why would Regina King be on a show like this? What places she going to go with this character

that seems on surface like kind of bland and then turns it into one of my favorite characters

in television history? And one of my one of the great performances is because it's Regina King.

I have a similar, she's so good. This is another like sort of like,

it wasn't obscure ball no more, but it was like, I remember I was podcasting about breaking bad

and Jesse Plumman shows up in later seasons. And I was like, they got

Landry, but the person I was podcasting with had not watched part of it. So he was sort of like,

he was just like, oh yeah, this guy's here. He's playing Todd who's just like this kind of this guy

who's here. And I was like, yeah, but it's Jesse Plumman. So like, it's got to mean something. And

then he had these character as a real turn on that show. And you're like, that's why,

that's why you get Landry over here. Jesse Plumman's on breaking bad. That was like a,

that was a real like, and it happens a lot in podcasting, I think, because you're just sort of like,

you like, really early in a season, you'll like, tab someone and you'll like,

have an actor. And you're like, why is this person here? It has to mean something. That's

the sort of like law and order, like spoiler casting idea, right? Just sort of like, you have to

be the murderer or a huge red herring to put this person inside of this episode. So they're just

two notable at a certain point. I think that's kind of the two categories, right? There's the actors

you know and feel overqualified for the material they're given. And then there's sort of the characters

that are just sort of lingering around and kind of have stuff to do. But it's never that notable

or interesting until all of a sudden it pops and you see what makes that performer really special.

I think for that latter category, I also want to shout out Brad Duriff in Deadwood,

where Doc Cochrane is like a nice supporting character. And then there's a plot line,

late in season one, where Deadwood is like this, you know, emerging frontier town and the

minister of this frontier town gets a brain tumor and is not only dying, but an extraordinary

pain. And Doc Cochrane, the one doctor in town played by Brad Duriff has this incredible,

like pleading with God monologue to kill, like, please let this man die,

versibly. That is, I mean, wrecks me every time I see it. I don't know what it is about me or my

Catholic upbringing. They gravitate store these like men yelling at God monologues, but here I am

yet again on this podcast, telling people to watch in this case Deadwood. It's really interesting

because in the case of Brad Duriff, there is this, because he's like an Oscar nominated actor,

right? But there is this question of like, okay, but is it a point in his career where like,

this is the best Brad Duriff could get at this point in his career? Has he been forgotten? And

Deadwood's like, we didn't forget. We know what Brad Duriff can do. So we're going to let him cook,

but you're going to have to wait a minute to get there. Did you have anyone from West Wing? Because

like West Wing has so many notable guest stars, but I didn't know that really was the same if like a

John Goodman or a Glenn Close shows up, you know, for like a couple episodes. And you're like,

I always kind of knew why John Goodman or Glenn Close here or something like that. Do you have any

something like that? That almost felt like a different thing to me because it's like John Goodman's

not really on the show until he's on the show. And so it's like that is kind of his emergence. And

so there's no moment of wondering like, why is John Goodman delivering these random lines that

any other actor could deliver? Because of the way he enters it, but you're right, there are a lot of

guest stars. I just think it might be like a slightly different categorization. On this very

nebulous idea that I came up with last night. That's what we do around here. I would add. Oh yeah,

Carol Burnett in the final season of Better Call Saul. Oh, sure. Like when they talked about

casting her, they were like, well, why wouldn't you take the opportunity to work with Carol Burnett

in Better Call Saul? But she plays this sort of like daughtering older woman in the entire show.

Saul Goodman, Jimmy McGill has had this like way with older older folks, older women,

particularly. But then she like, she has such a like climactic pivotal important role to play

in the end of that story. But at first, you're just sort of like, oh, did they just like want to

hang out with Carol Burnett? So they got her to play this like, would you? Yeah, I sure would.

I sure would. What else you have in the list? I have one final one. And it's one that we covered

on this feed relatively recently, which is when Sam Rockwell shows up in White Lotus season three.

The reason he's on the show, I would assume it's just because Leslie Bibb is on the show.

That's an easy end. You know, you know, a guy who knows a guy, all of a sudden, Sam Rockwell's on

your show. But yeah, like he doesn't just show up to show up. He's given some rather meaty material

if you'll allow it. And I just think that there's a lot there to, for people like us to unpack,

but also to kind of wait for and deliver on a moment like that.

Meaty materials is, I'm sorry, you decided to go. It wasn't planned. It just kind of came out

that way. Yeah. All right. I will wrap up with this year's Oscar winner for Best Actor

as Jesse Buckley on Chernobyl, specifically, I think, because at that point, I had seen her in Wild

Rose and more in peace. And she's so good in Wild Rose. I love Wild Rose. And I'd seen her,

she did like a live performance of the music from Wild Rose at Southbyte. I was just like,

this is person is like so incredible. And then she shows up in Chernobyl, a completely stacked

incredible cast of incredible veteran actors. And I was just like, oh, she's new-ish, she's young.

They've just cast her here to play this like wife character. But then the character that she plays,

Ludmilla, like, becomes, for me, the emotional just like, like stab me through the heart,

asked by a part of Chernobyl, you know, by episode three, you're just sort of like holy shit.

But that was one where I was just sort of like, is Jesse Buckley too new that she's just sort of like

taking whatever at HBO show? She's very new, but they were like, no, we saw Wild Rose. We saw,

we saw, we know what she can do. Don't worry, we're gonna use her. So it's like a don't worry,

we're gonna use them kind of thing. So I'm glad that the promise with that with Constance Zimmer

was delivered. I mean, when she gets her chance, I would say all of the lead up that we've already

talked about in terms of, you know, her conversation with Caroline, her kind of negotiations about

the remains, like all that stuff is really powerful. Her at the funeral is something else entirely.

And again, it's like, it's a line reading of a poem. And so like, it is put in a different place

from the rest of the dialogue of the show. But it floors you in a way that this episode needed

something like that. And it needed a character and a performer like her to bring it.

And it's one of those things where like, who, you know, we'll see if interviews they reveal this,

but like, who knows if the original intention was to have her readings sort of narrate

the rest of the show? Or if her reading was so good that they're like, let's make this,

you know, what we end with. I just thought that was really strong. And then the, you know,

the final shot of them, like, on the beach, like the idea of, I mean, Lauren once again left

out in the air. But the idea of bearing them at sea and then like coming and they're still like

in the in the world of the show alive and in love and together on the beach. I did think

it was like a really beautiful closing image for this series. Totally agree. Okay, we did it.

If you have any other of these, like, TV closer performances that you want to shout out,

press the TV at Spotify.com. We love, like, getting your suggestions. Thank you to all the people

who have watched the pit within the last 24 hours and sent us your suggestions for

cute nicknames for doing drugs while, while being a sports person. We've had some really good

ones already. You know, some different stuff going on on that podcast. It turns out. It's

truly hard to explain. Yeah. We'll be back with our next steps of the pit. And on the horizon,

we are definitely covering a beef of the Netflix limited series that's dropping next month.

That is something we're really, really excited for. And laughs about their stuff coming up. But

we will definitely be wrapping up the last month, I guess, of the pit. It never stops.

Thanks to Dev for their work on this podcast. And thank you to Rob Mahoney.

Thank you, Jill, your devotion to love stories. And thank you to Katie Rich for for

launching this series of us. Absolutely. We will see you soon. Bye.

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