MAHA moms are mad

Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. has not had an easy time in Washington.

Did you say Lyme disease is a highly likely, militarily engineered by a weapon?

I probably did say that.

Like, as unbelievable as it is, I love him.

He still has what he needs, though, a very active and activated maha base and an enormous

amount of power in the Trump administration.

In fact, the president's nominee for Surgeon General is a maha-affiliated MD and Influencer.

Oh my gosh, get the serial out of the house.

Who served as an advisor to RFK Jr.

But President Trump recently issued an order in the interest of national security that

is posing a real threat to the unity of the maha movement that serves as Kennedy's base

of support.

That's coming up on today, explain from box.

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Okay, let's see here.

Today.

Today.

Explained.

Explained.

Jessica Winter, staff writer at The New Yorker, tell me about President Trump's nominee

for Surgeon General, Dr. Casey Means.

Casey Means is a graduate of Stanford Medical School.

She did not finish her residency in otolaryngology, which is head and neck surgery.

When I kind of put some of these pieces together and realized that my training had

totally essentially incapacitated me from really understanding why patients are sick

and how to actually help them thrive, I actually had to walk away from the surgical world.

There are sharply differing accounts of why she didn't finish her residency,

but she went into what is known as functional medicine, which is more or less holistic or

alternative medicine.

She co-founded a medical technology company called Levels, which offers continuous glucose

monitoring and other wearable technology.

With levels you get access to things like powerful tools, food logging, macro tracking,

and even continuous glucose monitors that you can use to proactively optimize your health.

She started up a popular newsletter and an Instagram account called Dr. Casey's Kitchen

with recipes and nutrition advice, and she really got into the game of sponsorships

and promotions as an influencer.

She would promote things like wellness teas and prenatal vitamins and all kinds of supplements.

And she had pretty amazing timing because in 2024 she published a book

co-written with her brother, Cali Means, called Good Energy, about ending what they

call the chronic disease epidemic.

And this book emerged into the world just as the Maha movement and RFK Junior's

presidential campaign were really gaining momentum and visibility.

And pretty soon the mean siblings were appearing on Joe Rogan and Tucker Carlson and all

of a sudden she was a Maha superstar.

I honestly think you're going to change the world like I mean that.

I read Good Energy because I interviewed her brother, Cali Means.

It's a really genuinely interesting book.

Give us some insight into what this book tells us about how we should be living our lives.

So Good Energy is kind of their manifesto.

It's partly a memoir about Casey Means's journey out of conventional medicine and into the

influencer space. She talks about the death of her mother.

It's a diet and nutrition and lifestyle guide.

You know, it talks about the dangers of ultra-processed foods and the importance of eating organic

and keeping your blood sugar steady.

Highly addictive substances are being pushed on every person in the United States from birth.

And these substances are causing well over one million deaths per year.

These substances are ultra-processed foods.

And I would say that it has three main pillars of argument that align perfectly with Maha.

The first is that the food and pharmaceutical companies' industries are incentivized to make

you sick and keep you sick. Number two is most conventional medical interventions do not help you

and may harm you. Patients are being crushed by the devil's bargain between the six trillion

dollar food industry which wants to make food cheap and addictive and the four trillion dollar

healthcare industry which profits off interventions on sick patients and stays silent about the reasons

they're getting sick. And there's a laundry list of things in the book that they tell you to

beware against, you know, antibiotics, chemotherapy drugs, anti-retroviral drugs, beta blockers,

on and on and on. And then the number three pillar is that most illnesses can be prevented or treated

through diet and lifestyle choices. How much of this book is based in sort of scientific evidence?

As with a lot with Maha, they do have a point now and again about ultra-processed foods

and it's great to buy organic and it's great to cook from scratch and it's great to exercise but

there are plenty of people out there who can give you that kind of advice. They take it to extremes

in terms of, you know, when I wrote about good energy, I talked about going into my local supermarket

and suddenly feeling as though, you know, you're surrounded by enemies or something, right? I mean,

it's Bucks cereal, it's bread and a bag, it's any non-organic produce. And so I think another thing

to keep in mind is that Casey means has not trained in this space. She has no formal expertise

in this space. I mean, again, she trained in otolaryngology. I think some in Maha would not see that

as a disadvantage because she's not coming out of the medical establishment. But at the same time,

you know, the advice that they're giving the fears that they're trying to stoke in people are

really extreme and not necessarily helpful, I would say. Casey means had her Senate nomination

hearing last week. What did we learn from that? We learned that she is trying to modify her public

persona a little bit and she's trying to present a more moderate, more palatable version of herself.

And, you know, we've seen this with a lot of nominees for Trump's cabinet. I mean, to take the

vaccines point, there's a very interesting moment in that hearing where she really emphasized

that messaging on vaccines has never been part a major part of her platform as an influencer.

So just to be very clear, vaccines, vaccine advocacy has never or any anti-vaccine rhetoric has

never been a part of my message. I don't mention the word vaccine in my book. This is not a part of

my core message. I am not here to complicate the issue on vaccines. But at the same time, you know,

she won't come out and say that she thinks, you know, all children should follow the regular

vaccine schedule or anything like that. I'm supportive of vaccination. I do believe that each patient,

mother, parent needs to have a conversation with their pediatrician about any medication they're

putting in their body. Looking at Casey means, I mean, there's a lot of ways that she contrast with

other surgeon general nominees. I mean, she never finished her residency. She has not had an

active medical license for some time now. As I mentioned, she has mainly offered advice in a

space where she has no training. She has no background in public health. She has no background

in epidemiology. It's funny. A refrain in her answers was, I can't give individual advice,

right? People should have a conversation with their doctor. I'm not an individual's doctor.

She shared clinical decision-making with their doctors about specific vaccines. All patients need

to have a thorough conversation with their doctor and have true and form consent before taking any

medication. Make sure that patients are encouraged to have informed consent with their doctor before

getting any medication. But, you know, vaccination is something that, you know, we think of as a collective

good that we're not necessarily tailoring that to every individual person. It's not necessarily

a bespoke kind of process, right? And she is auditioning to be a person who can be America's doctor,

who can actually issue pretty close to blanket recommendations to people about things like diet,

nutrition, vaccinations, chronic illness, and so forth. And so, a way that I think she tried

to tack to the center and moderate her position was to constantly come back to the subjective place

of people should talk to their doctor. But at the same time, a lot of her presence, a lot of her

persona is to distrust your doctor. I mean, good energy says straight up not to trust your doctor

and do your own research and make the individual decisions that are best for you and your families.

It's a very mixed message, but I think it's a message that she's trying to kind of moderate

her image in ways that I don't think we're particularly convincing to the set of senators.

Do you think she's going to be confirmed? Assuming all of the Democrats on the committee vote

again, which I think is a fair assumption, it's not a guarantee, she only needs one Republican

to wobble for it not to make it out of committee. And I would say that the three wobbly Republicans are

Collins Murkowski and Cassidy and all three of them had, you know, cordial but tough questions

for her and the hearing. So I'm not sure she makes it out of committee. We'll have to see.

It's now been about a year of Maha people in leading roles in American public health.

Do you get the sense that there is more skepticism of the Maha movement among lawmakers now?

Or do you think we should expect more of them?

I do think that skepticism toward Maha has become more acceptable. And I think there is more

skepticism toward Maha within Maha. Because I would say that it's extremely difficult for anyone

in Maha not to admit that this administration has not gone the way they'd hoped when it came to

issues they care deeply about, particularly forever chemicals in soil and water. The EPA has

done absolutely the opposite of anything Maha would have wished for since this administration came in.

And so I think Maha is really trying to figure itself out right now and figure out what it's

place in our politics and culture is. And I don't know that Casey Neins and her confirmation is

necessarily top of mind in that process.

That was the New Yorker's Jessica Winter. Coming up, an executive order turns the Maha Moms

against RFK.

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President Trump issued the executive order on February 18th, promoting the national defense by

ensuring an adequate supply of elemental phosphorus and glyphosate-based herbicides.

In short, we need to be making more glyphosate in the US. Glyphosate is a pesticide,

and making it here is a national security issue per Trump because we need it for our food supply.

Glyphosate is particularly hated by those in the maha movement. Glyphosate can cross the

blood testes barrier and end up in semen. Weed killer could be in your baby gravy right now.

Oatmeal is heavily sprayed with glyphosate these days. It's also being found in our rain

and our drinking water. Lisa Held, reporter at Civil Eats. The maha response came fast and

furious, and it was mostly trained on RFKJR in part because he's their man in Washington

and in part because he's got a long history with pesticides, yeah? Yeah, he was an environmental

lawyer for a long time, and you know, even worked for the NRDC, for instance, a really big

environmental organization in this country. He was part of a team of lawyers who

brought the first big case against Monsanto, the company that makes glyphosate.

I knew it was getting into our water, into our air, into our food, onto our landscapes,

where our children play, and yet they were telling people that it was safe as table saw.

At a time when they knew that it could cause cancer. That was on behalf of an individual who said

that using glyphosate had caused his non-Hodgkin's lymphoma, and they won. It was the first case

that they won. A California jury ordered Monsanto to pay $289 million in damages to Duane

Lee Johnson. Finding the company failed to warn Johnson and other consumers of the cancer risk.

Americans should be encouraged by the verdict because it's an emblem that corporations are still

subject to our democracy and to our system of justice in this country. And then, you know, he also

had an organization that he ran for a long time called Children's Health Defense, and they

do a lot of work on policy and advocacy on reducing pesticide use and pesticide exposures.

All right, so in the past, RFK has been critical of pesticides like glyphosate. Now,

we see him sort of changing his position. I support President Trump's executive order to bring

agricultural chemical production back to the United States and to end our near total reliance

on adversarial nations. His executive order protects two pillars or our national strength,

our defense readiness, and our food supply. Possibly the most interesting thing about RFK

is his coalition, his maha coalition. How does the maha coalition react when they see him responding

to President Trump on glyphosate? When this executive order was first released, there was a group

within the maha coalition that they were very angry. There's a few kind of prominent maha

supporters like Kelly Ryerson and Vani Hari who have been speaking out about the executive order

and really saying that it goes against the principles of maha. We shouldn't have to beg hope

or pray for food and water that isn't poisoned. This country clearly has the money, so deliver it

now. It costs the government zero dollars to tell the truth about glyphosate. Tell the people

the truth about glyphosate just like artificial dyes and watch the market fix itself. They're angry

but they're also kind of over time. It seems that they are trusting Secretary Kennedy's response

where he's saying, look, we're still working on this, but we need to do, you know, this executive

order in the meantime is necessary. The Pentagon and others said this is an extreme national security

vulnerability that China controls the U.S. food system. We can't afford to let that happen,

but we all know we've got a transition off of glyphosate. I think the interesting thing with

the maha coalition at this moment in time is this executive order is coming at a moment when glyphosate

is already a really big issue for them. There's a Supreme Court case that's going to be heard on

April 27th that would give companies like Bayer immunity from future lawsuits related to cancer

and other health risks. They care a lot about that. They're already angry that the Trump

administration is signing with Bayer in that Supreme Court case. There's another liability

issue that is in a draft of the Farm Bill right now, which they're also fighting. So I think it's

kind of part of this bigger picture where pesticide use and pesticide exposure is kind of emerging

as the most kind of contentious issue when it comes to the maha coalition and their relationship

to the Trump administration. Within the maha coalition, there is a group of women called the

that are sometimes called the maha moms. These are people who care a lot about what is going into

our bodies. They care a lot about health and often they will say they care because they are

concerned about their children. My understanding is that the maha moms in particular were upset

about this executive order and they saw Kennedy's response as kind of a betrayal. Could you talk about

this subgroup of women and how you saw them responding? Yeah. I did tune into a meeting of one of the

groups that makes up this maha moms coalition called moms across America about a week ago and

what I heard was that they're definitely upset and they care a lot about this and they're not happy

about the executive order. They're not happy about really anything that's happening when it comes to

pesticide policy within the Trump administration right now. But they're not kind of abandoning the

administration in a wholehearted way because they still really trust Secretary Kennedy. And

you know, there's this kind of thinking around, well, we can't kind of ditch the administration over

this because over here at HHS, Kennedy is doing things that we really care about and we really believe

in and we think that what we see as this progress over here is so valuable that we're going to stand

by him. And you know, there's this kind of understanding within those groups like among the maha

moms that Kennedy has to kind of fight for these things within the administration itself. But they

aren't abandoning the administration altogether. And I think that's really because this whole coalition

came together around Kennedy and they just really care about him and trust him.

I wonder about the maha moms and their level of organization and their level of political

influence. Do they hold a lot of power in the maha movement and do conservatives look at them and

say, okay, this group might be small, but it is mighty and we need to not lose them.

Definitely. I think they have real power in this moment. And I think the best example of that is

how the EPA has been responding to their criticism. So over the last few months before this

executive order in response to all different decisions the EPA made to approve new pesticides or

re-approved pesticides that they were concerned about like dicamba. The EPA has actually invited

members of this movement, maha moms into the agency to talk to them. They have even when

putting out press releases that seem to go directly against the maha agenda, they have tried to

message that it is aligned with maha in some way. They're trying really hard to kind of appease

and speak to and court the maha moms and the fact that the agency really feels that that's

necessary seems to signal that they see them as having real power.

There's a larger current in the maha movement that has always been very interesting and it is the

sense that political administrations doesn't matter whether they're Republican or Democrat. They

side with big industry over regular people. And that they would say is why we have dyes in our

candy and dyes in our cereal. That is why we have plastics in the water. It's because our elected

officials are concerned about business. They're not concerned about us. Now this is something that

many in the maha movement seem to believe that RFK would do something about. RFK is a man of the

people versus a man of the corporations. Does this glyphosate executive order and everything that

has come after? Does that change how people within the movement look at him when it comes particularly

to him siding with us versus him siding with business? I think they don't see this executive order

or these decisions around glyphosate as his decisions. They see that for instance he's pushing

companies to move away from food dyes and they see that as kind of being anti-industry

and really pushing industry, I think the administration overall is incredibly pro-industry and

one of the big promises that the Trump administration has made and has kept over the last year

is deregulation. And so they have delivered over and over and over again to four industry

and corporations by deregulating and rolling back rules that were put in place to reduce

exposures to pollutants, things that maha moms and maha supporters care about. And so there's this

kind of what secretary Kennedy is doing on one side but then there's what the overall administration

is doing which is very different. And so I think that they see those two things as separate in some

way but I'm not sure how law hung that discrepancy can kind of be present before you know at least

part of the movement or some of the supporters kind of see the two things as being fundamentally

at odds with each other. Lisa Held of Civil Eats. Today's show was produced by Danielle

Hewitt and Dustin DeSoto, was edited by Jolly Myers. Andrea Lopez-Grasato checked the facts

and Patrick Boyden, David Tadashore, engineered. I'm Noelle King, it's today explained.

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