Mangione Episode 5: "The Gambit"

0:00Hi, this is Brian Buckmeyer here with the final episode of Burn and Proof, Luigi Mangioni. It's the last episode we'll be sharing here, but if you want to follow the trial and more legal coverage from ABC News, you can check out the podcast, Burn and Proof Daily. Every Monday through Friday, you'll hear the latest coverage from ABC News on the trials America can't stop talking about. You might even hear my voice from time to time. Find Burn and Proof Daily on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app. And remember, you can listen to this podcast, add free, and unlock access to so much more from 2020 by subscribing to 2020 True Crime Plus on Apple Podcasts. Click the link in the description to learn more. Now, here's the final episode of Burn and Proof, Luigi Mangioni. A new series from the streets of Snowfall. I can't not do this.

1:01FX presents the drop of Snowfall saga. The raptor is the new gold rush. Hey, run that back. Go down this road. You know, okay, she'll see you. Who got a real chance to do something? FX is the drop of Snowfall saga, new series premier September 8 on FX and Hulu. So far, on Burn and Proof, Luigi Mangioni, we've been feeling you in on everything that has unfolded since December 4th, 2024, when Brian Thompson was murdered on a Manhattan sidewalk. We've talked about the manhunt for the shooter, who Brian Thompson was, who Luigi Mangioni is, and why this case has captivated so much attention. When we started the series, Mangioni's state trial for the murder of Brian Thompson was supposed to begin tomorrow. But so much has changed since then. This is a case that has a lot of moving pieces, and just keeps evolving. In this episode, we're going to get into where things stand in Mangioni's case now,

2:02and how we got here. For that, we're talking with ABC Newsians Chief Investigative Correspondent, Aaron Kotersky, who you've heard over this whole series. He's been following this case from the very start, and has attended many of Mangioni's court hearings. Aaron is always welcome back. It's always a pleasure to have you. Good to be here, Brian. Let's start with what happened in Mangioni's federal case. In that case, he was initially charged with murder through the use of a firearm, a firearms offense, and two counts of stocking. The murder charge made him eligible for the death penalty. But that and the firearms offense were dismissed by a judge months ago. The judge found in the prosecution did not prove certain elements of the crimes that carry the death penalty, and when that happens, the charge gets dismissed. So when Mangioni entered the courtroom in mid-August, he was only facing two counts of stocking, and he pled guilty to those. You were in the courtroom? What else happened during the plea hearing?

3:03The most interesting thing that happened other than Mangioni's guilty plea, Brian, was his own explanation of exactly what he did, because the judge needed to be convinced that he was pleading guilty because he is, in fact, guilty and wasn't coerced or wasn't thinking that there was some other motive for what went on. So he ended up seated, reading a statement that occurred when the judge asked him exactly what he did. And he said, I shot Mr. Thompson, meaning Brian Thompson, the CEO of United Health Care, and he said that he had done so after he learned that United Health Care would be holding annual investor conference in New York in December of 2024. He said he traveled with the intent to shoot Brian Thompson. I shot Mr. Thompson in Manhattan, Mangioni said, and he died. How would you describe Mangioni as he pled guilty? I would describe him as rather passive. There was no contrition, there was no remorse,

4:08there was no particular anguish. He didn't fall on the sword, so to speak, Brian, but he, Mattara faculty said that he came to New York to kill Brian Thompson and did it. And that was it. And for the first time we saw Thompson's widow in court for a proceeding, she was crying as all this went on and had to be comforted by another relative who was seated next to her. The courtroom was hushed, Mangioni just sat there in beige, jail garb, but there was something Mattara fact about it. So if he felt any remorse or if he felt any kind of contrition, it did not show when he was delivering his statement to the judge. And I would say that's pretty par for the course. When it comes to an initial plea, there's a sentencing and that may come forward in the way that he might talk about this now crime no longer alleged. And there's still the state case hanging over his head. But Aaron, as you're in courtroom, what was the energy like or I guess the vibe? There's always some anticipation when Luigi Mancioni

5:16steps into the room. Many people kind of lean forward or crane their neck to get a good look at him because he has become a defendant who's the subject of fascination. But there were notably fewer of his supporters outside the courthouse. He had a few rows of supporters who have showed up to just about every hearing, but I was struck that at this moment, as he's pleading guilty, as he's admitting that he killed Brian Thompson, he was largely alone there with his attorneys, but no family members, very few supporters and Luigi Mancioni simply gave his statement and then returned into the custody of the US marshals. I think that for a lot of people, this guilty plea was a surprise. I mean, think about it, right? Just days before Mancioni's and attorneys were in state court discussing matters related to that trial. We were all gearing up for a potential early September trial and state court. You've covered this case closely for nearly two years. Were you

6:20surprised at all that a plea was taken in federal court? I think it had to be taken. Brian, you know the evidence in the case. It was overwhelming. Luigi Mancioni is on video killing someone, shooting him in the back. It turns out there were eyewitnesses to the crime, as prosecutors mentioned in court prior to the actual recitation of the guilty plea. They had a lot of physical evidence that connected Mancioni to the crime, including the murder weapon pulled from his backpack, notes that prosecutors took to be emotive. All of that was going to be brought to bear and it exposed him to the potential of a life sentence in a state prison in New York. That was something from the outset that his attorneys had sought to avoid. By pleading guilty in federal court, they're hoping for a slightly different outcome. They know he's going to be incarcerated, but they perhaps prefer incarceration in a federal prison and maybe for not as long as life.

7:26For the record, I think everything you said was absolutely correct, but just to be devil's advocate, because I'm curious as to what you think. There's a poet by the name of Sean Cory Carter. He used to say something about you didn't pass the bar, but you know a little bit. And I think I would put you in that category, Aaron. Why not just go to trial and hope that a Mancioni fan or someone who has an axe to grind with the healthcare insurance companies is on there and you've get a hung jury or you get some jury notification. Why not that rather than the strategy you've just put forward? I think two reasons. One, the evidentiary hearing that Judge Gregory Carroll presided over in state court allowed most of the evidence to be put before a jury. So the defense was hoping to keep some statements that he made to Pennsylvania corrections officers, some items pulled from his backpack upon arrest at the McDonald's in Altoona, Pennsylvania. They wanted to keep all of that out

8:27and they were largely unsuccessful. And I think the other thing, the idea of jury nullification or putting the healthcare system on trial, the judge was keenly aware of that possibility. And you had to imagine that prosecutors on jury selection would be well tuned to any attempt to keep a questionable panelist on the jury. That strategy in the defense's view probably could not succeed, or at least they didn't want to take the risk. We've got to take a quick break. And when we come back, we'll talk about where things stand in Manjioni's state case. Today I want to tell you about an exciting new deal from our friends at Cozy Earth. Take a moment and close your eyes and think back to the best night of sleep you ever had. Did it feel like you'd never sleep that well again? Well, good news. You can give yourself an amazing night of sleep every

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10:32I'm sorry, I can't focus at the moment. We're going behind the scenes with the cast and crew sharing stories from the set, creative insights, and a few surprises from across the galaxy. I think he's earned a little snack. Watch and listen to Star Wars, the Manelur and Grogu official podcast. Now streaming on Disney Plus or wherever you get your podcasts and catch Star Wars, the Manelur and Grogu now streaming on Disney Plus, Terms Apply. There is so much NFL on ESPN right now. Monday night football, Plus pregame and postgame. NFL live, NFL prime time. Everything you need to stay on top of every game, every week. Unbelievable. And now NFL Network is on the ESPN app. More football, more coverage, more ways to watch. Football's on. All season long on ESPN and streaming on the ESPN app. Right after Luigi Manjone's federal plea hearing, his attorneys follow the motions to dismiss his state charges,

11:34including second-degree murder on double-jeprity grounds. Double-jeprity is a constitutional protection found in the Fifth Amendment. It protects people from being prosecuted for the same crime twice. It's very important to say crime and not actions because that's the distinction the law makes. Then every state, like with many criminal laws, has the ability to create further protections that go beyond the federal protections of double-jeprity. New York being one of the more litigious states because we have the Southern District of New York and Eastern District of New York, where there are a lot of state and federal overlap, go a little bit further in their protections. And they give greater definitions as to why the state and federal government cannot prosecute you for the same crime twice. Here's Luigi Manjone's defense attorney, Karen Friedman-Agnifalo, speaking about double-jeprity at a press conference after Manjone's plea hearing. New York law does not permit a person to be prosecuted and punished twice

12:35for the exact same crime under a statute that governs successive prosecutions. It's also known as the double-jeprity law. Today's guilty plea triggers the statute and we just filed our motion in state court explaining why the state charges must be dismissed under New York's double-jeprity protections. Aaron, as I read the New York state double-jeprity law and the motion that was filed by the defense of Luigi Manjone, I zero in on about 15 words that I think is going to come down to why the defense either wins or loses. And I'm curious as to what your response is. It's I understand that their strongest argument is to say that the stocking resulting in death in federal court and the murder charge in the second degree in state court are too similar and that's why it's double-jeprity. The language and the law is that these statutory provisions defining such offenses are designated or designed sorry to prevent very different kinds of harm or evil.

13:39I could see the state saying stocking and resulting in death and murder in the second degree are two different evils. And therefore both jurisdictions have the right to prosecute. But the defense is saying the opposite. The defense is saying stocking resulting in death and murder in the second degree are the same type of evil and therefore is double-jeprity. Where do you think the judge falls on that particular issue which I think is the heart of the argument here? I think it depends on whether the judge follows the technical definitions of the law or whether he follows more the substance of the case. Because both cases the defense has said rely on the same set of facts. There are no differentiating facts between the stocking resulting in death and the murder case in the state court. So if the judge believes that it's largely the same case he may see a distinction without a difference. Even though as you say Brian the Manhattan District Attorney's Office would argue that these are two separate harms,

14:45that the cases are meant to address two separate things, the stocking and the murder of Brian Thompson. The Manhattan District Attorney's Office put out a statement after the defense filed their double-jeprity motion saying quote, while federal sentencing is pending we are prepared to litigate the defense motion. The Manhattan District Attorney's Office remains committed to seeking justice for Mr. Thompson and his family. What have you heard from the Manhattan DA's perspective on this double-jeprity argument from the defense? The Manhattan DA's office knew that the defense's best shot at acquittal was trying to put the whole healthcare system on trial, was trying to distract from the main actions which are on video of Luigi Mangione. And so they were going to be aware of this. The Manhattan DA's office also was mindful that a man is dead and a family is expecting justice. And so they wanted to push forward to make sure justice is done on behalf of Brian Thompson's family.

15:48Now sources close to the Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg know that there's going to be a calculation in that office. If the sentences stiff enough, the family may not want to go through the pain of a state trial and maybe they back off, the DA's office even though in that statement expressed a desire to go forward with a state trial, Brian, they well know that if there's a stiff sentence, there just may not be a need to put anyone through it. There's a desire on the part of prosecutors to never see Luigi Mangione walking free. So they're going to be tuned to the sentencing hearing and judge Garnett's decision in the federal case before deciding how hard to push for a trial on the state side. When will we know what's going to come next in the state case? There are two important dates and they both occur toward the end of the year. The first is an appearance before Judge Gregory Carrow where he will ostensibly entertain the defense motion to dismiss the state case.

16:56And then the sentencing hearing in the federal case for Luigi Mangione and that's going to be key because it will help prosecutors decide how hard to push. And so both of those dates are key and it may give us an understanding about the next steps for Luigi Mangione and whether he actually goes on trial and if he doesn't Brian, as much as he is admitted, his guilt, now through his guilty plea, it will be striking that he will never be convicted of murder of Brian Thompson. Right, because what Mangione pleaded guilty to is stalking and connection with the murder of Brian Thompson, not murder itself. That's what he's charged with in the state case. In mid-December, Mangione will be back in federal court to be sentenced for those two counts of stalking. We'll talk about what might happen there after a quick break. And all new season of the Hulu Original Series, the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, is coming to Hulu and Hulu on Disney Plus September 10.

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20:04The Hulu Original Chad Powers is a deal. It's where the prosecutors say, hey, we may reduce the charges or you don't have to plead guilty to the most serious crime. You complete guilty to a less serious crime and we can agree to a certain amount of years in prison. But with an open plea, the defendant just pleads guilty to the entire indictment or the entire charges. And then in essence turns to the judge hoping for a good sentence or a good deal. What can we take away from the fact Aaron that this was not part of a plea deal but instead was an open plea by Luigi Mangioni? There's no guarantee what Mangioni's sentence is going to be. And Judge Margaret Garnett will be the ultimate decider. But there was nothing promised. There is no particular expectation. He could face up to life in prison. If in fact, Judge Garnett decides. Although typically on a stocking case, a defendant might expect far less than that. But this is a unique circumstance because Mangioni said that he came to New York with the intent to kill Brian Thompson and then did it.

21:12He meant to kill and he did kill Brian Thompson that day in December 2024. Yeah. And when it comes to the federal system, we have what's called federal sentencing guidelines. And from what I understand, the defense has already calculated or guessed at what that range would be. And from their filings, it's something like 24 to 30 years and five months is what they believe his range may be. And that's the gambit here. That's why the defense sought to plead out the federal case and do it first. The whole hope is that not only will Mangioni serve his time in a federal prison instead of a state prison. It's generally thought federal prison conditions may be a little better, a little less violent, a little less crowded than state prisons. The defense is also hoping to convince the judge for something other than a life sentence. If it's 20 to 30 years, even a little more than that, Mangioni would still be eligible for release when he's a grown man, but still with some life left in him.

22:17And that's something that state prosecutors in Manhattan are going to be watching very closely because if it's anything other than a severe sentence, you can bet the Manhattan District Attorney's Office is going to push to still put Mangioni on track. What kind of influence, if any, could state prosecutors have in the federal case, especially if the state charges are dismissed? There's no real mechanism for the Manhattan District Attorney's Office to weigh in, but they could try to send a letter to the judge. They could try to discuss the case with their federal counterparts to make sure their views are reflected in whatever statements. The federal prosecutors make during the sentencing hearing, there's an interest that the Manhattan DA's Office has promised to pursue to make sure the federal judge Margaret Garnett understands where the DA's office is coming from.

23:18And why they felt like justice needed to be served. The assistant district attorney, handling the case, Charles Sydeman, has said that he has been in constant communication with Brian Thompson's family and wants to pursue justice on their behalf. And the DA's office has also said this was a murder on our street in our borough. And they want to also send a message that it's just not acceptable. So there's also an interest there that the Manhattan DA's office wants to make clear. And I think Brian, in no small way, the DA's office felt like they did all the work. And it's their evidence along with the NYPD. The feds just sort of snatched Mangioni upon his rather cinematic return aboard a helicopter to New York City. And I not that they're looking for credit necessarily, but they wanted their day in court because they were confident that the evidence they amassed would have made a strong case.

24:23Looking now a little down the road to December. And I think that the fact that we are not being sentencing in federal court. What should we expect Mangioni's federal sentencing hearing to be like? I think it should be like any sentencing hearing in federal court. There will be the opportunity for victims to be heard, who's the victim in this case. Well, we know it's Brian Thompson. Does his family want to make a statement? Does the company that he worked for as chief executive want to make a statement prosecutors will have a chance to argue? Mangioni himself will have the chance to address the court and perhaps in his own words explain why he deserves a more lenient sentence. That's his choice. He doesn't have to, but that would be his shot. And it would also give him the chance if he so chooses Brian to be a little bit more expensive than he has been allowed to be in court where he has asked very specific questions and must give specific answers.

25:25We've heard him give outbursts on his arrest in court once he stood up and talked about double jeopardy. This would be his chance if he feels that he needs to make a statement about the killing of Brian Thompson. It would be his chance to do so at sentencing. A couple of months ago, Mangioni's defense attorney said they plan to use a psychiatric defense in his state case. I believe it's specifically the extreme emotional disturbance defense. We saw them raise that potential psychiatric defense and then later withdraw. Do you think there's a chance that Mangioni's attorneys will bring up this mental health or mental state argument during the federal sentencing hearing? They could try and they could argue that that's a reason for leniency here, but there are no psychiatric records in evidence or on offer that would affirm the defense notion of Luigi Mangioni's mental health. We don't know and if the case doesn't get to trial, we may never know, but I think on sentencing for sure that offense may try to bring that up.

26:34In practicing myself in the Southern District of New York and the Eastern District of New York, I am pretty familiar with what the factors are that the judge is going to consider. And some of the big ones, in my opinion, could cut both ways and maybe harm men, Joni, more than help him. The judge has to consider certain factors, right? The idea being that the sentence must be sufficient, but not greater than necessary to comply with certain purposes within federal law. You've got to look at things like the nature and circumstances of the offense and the history and characteristics of the defendant. So how bad is the crime? Does this person have a criminal record or not? They also look at the seriousness of the offense, the adequacy to deter criminal conduct, so to stop other people from committing this crime in the future. They also look at the ability to protect the public from further crimes from this specific defendant. And they also look at things that I don't think apply to men, Joni, like the need for educational or vocational training or medical care or other correctional treatment.

27:36But looking at all those factors and looking at this case and looking at the arguments, are you seeing anything that would give us any indication as to what kind of sentence man, Joni could get in federal court? Brian, it's as you know, impossible to guess what a judge is going to do. But in addition to all those factors, just look at the series of events. This is someone who admitted he traveled to New York with the intent to kill somebody and actually did it. I don't know what judge in America who's going to take that lightly. And then there's man, Joni himself. This is a high school valedictorian, a son of privilege, somebody with every opportunity to travel the world. And what does he choose to do? He chooses to travel to New York with a gun and a silencer that he made using a 3D printer. He put his education, he put his privilege to work to shoot somebody on the streets of Manhattan. It may not bode well for men, Joni. I don't see a world in which judge, Garnett goes easy on Luigi, man, Joni.

28:42They're going to do everything they can the defense is to try to convince her for a lenient sentence to perhaps offer his back pain or his prolonged exposure to the health insurance system. Even though United Health Care was not his provider, they could offer up a number of potentially mitigating factors. But he admitted that he intentionally killed someone on the street in Manhattan. It was a shocking crime that shocked the city. And there's an expectation that prosecutors have that the judge is not going to go easy on him. Aaron, from December of 2024, we've been covering this case. You more than anyone else I know. So reflecting back on everything that you've covered related to the murder of Brian Thompson, what stands out to you the most about this story as we approach what could be the end of a saga that is the death of Brian Thompson and the case of Luigi, man, Joni.

29:42It has to be the way the case is coming to an end, Brian, all of the facts, all of the evidence way against Luigi, man, Joni. You can put the health care system on trial. You can blame your back pain. But at the end of the day, you're on video killing a guy. And yet his defense did a job in perhaps helping him avoid a life sentence in a state prison. And so it will be left to others to decide whether this is justice for Brian Thompson's family or whether there's something more to be desired here. And whether in effect, man, Joni did not fully go through the system as intended. I think his lawyers did a job for him, right? I mean, I don't know. I mean, at the end of the day, he was facing the death penalty. And now we are talking about does he get out within his lifetime or not as a defense attorney? That sort of a win in some sense.

30:46With those set of facts, absolutely. Well, Aaron, I always look forward to these conversations on these podcasts. I know it's hard to get you because you're doing 20 things at once. So again, thank you for joining us and for your excellent reporting on this case and all cases that you cover. Thank you, Brian. Burn and Approof Luigi Mangioni is a production of ABC audio hosted by me, Ryan Buckmeyer, produced by Vika Arenson and Audrey Moss tech. Our lead producer is Camille Peterson, edited by Tracy Samuelson, music by Evan Viola, mixing by Bob Mallory, special thanks to Katie Dendas, Sasha Aslanian, Michelle Margulis, Tanya Simpson, Josh Mark Cohen, Peter Harlambus, and Jared Kovsky. Josh Cohen is our director of podcast programming. Aiman McNiff is our executive producer. Thanks for listening to Burn and Approof Luigi Mangioni. That's the end of this podcast. But if you want to follow the trial and more legal covers from ABC News, I recommend you check out the podcast, Burn and Approved Daily.

31:57Every Monday through Friday, you'll hear the latest coverage on the trials America can't stop talking about. You might even hear my voice and Aren's from time to time. Find Burn and Approved Daily on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Or listen ad-free on Apple Podcasts when you subscribe to 2020 True Crime Plus. There's a headlight every 30 minutes for our show. I'm pretty sure. Welcome to Get Real. I'm your host Amanda Hirsch. This is the show for the reality TV obsessed. You thought the show was crazy living it was crazy. By dripping sweat for Aven stars. For the stars and stands of the Hula reality verse. Do you think she's stirring the pot to secure a place on the show? Find and listen to Get Real wherever you get your podcast. And stream new episodes Thursdays on Hulu and Hulu on Disney Plus.

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