sportsSep 14, 202655:53

McCullum – I want to be challenged by KP.

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We hear from England white ball coach Brendon McCullum.

Mark Chapman is joined by Michael Vaughan, Phil Tufnell and Steven Finn to look back on the Test summer, look ahead to the winter and discuss what England want to get out of the white ball games with Sri Lanka as Kevin Pietersen joins as a specialist mentor.

We also hear from the ECB National Club Champions Shepherds Bush.

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Test Match Special — McCullum – I want to be challenged by KP.. Machine-transcribed; use the interactive transcript above to jump the player to any line.

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The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. The TMS podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.

The TMS podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. The TMS podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.

The TMS podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. The TMS podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. The TMS podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. The TMS podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. The TMS podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. The TMS podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.

The TMS podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. The TMS podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. The average speed of a wicket taking ball was nearly two miles an hour slower than last year. As a bowling geek, when you hear that what is that telling you? Is that telling you something about the ball? The pictures? That's been not being particularly good this summer? A bit of everything? What would you focus on? I think a bit of everything. We've clearly had a couple of very poor pictures. We've had loads and kept low, which clearly stacks the odds in your favour for those numbers as a bowler. What I haven't seen much of this year is balls being changed. Usually in a test match you'll see that the umpire come out with his ball bag.

And he's got the new ones in there. And the replacement balls. And the one that's going to be in the ball bag is a little bit more than usual. And when it comes out of shape, it's got the triangular corner on it. And when you're looking at it thinking that's out of shape, it doesn't go through the umpire's hoop. And yeah, they bring new balls out. We haven't seen that at all this summer. And that's strange. It says to me that the ball is remaining harder for longer, which then once it stays harder for longer, the movement of the pitch is more exaggerated. And it does it for longer in the innings. So, you know, I think the combination of those things. And also just the skill of those wobble scene bowlers with the keeper up to the stumps, pinning the batters back in the crease, not allowing them to get out to the ball in order to get outside the line for LBWs, or to be able to negate that movement on the front foot. I think a combination of all of those um all of those things is um

what has caused the bowlers to be in the absolute ascendancy this year. Can I just say, well done, Stephen. Well done. You got through the hearted despite the childish. That is going to get a chance. Do you know what? The back hole. Is the suitcase not a ball? I know. I realise that as I say it is because when you practice, you use bags instead of suitcases. But as I said, it was uh yeah. Very well. No, he did very well because there was a lot of childish giggling and he made your points and got through it. I tell you something also as well and you're very well done. Well I was good to say also as well as I think that the batting as well, the technique. Because he said keep us stood up and seen through just changed the game. He used to happen all the time, not that long ago, but I think that the batters have struggled with that particular technique. I think that it's found, you know, top-class batters a little bit wanting. I think they're going to go, well, we should say we mentioned Joe Roof, England's finest.

He's struggled with it as well. And it's just this little slight difference in tactics and what have you. And it's just thrown him a little bit. I think it's going to take him a bit of time just to get a handle on it. Yeah, I mean, if you look six test matches in the summer of one century. That's from Ben Duckey against New Zealand. At Trump, but you can't tell me against Pakistan, all those players that got to 16 and 17, that they were outdone by the pitch. They were done because they weren't ruthless enough to go and get the big 100 themselves. And that's one of the problems going forward is that this batting line up is very dangerous. It's very talented. But until they earn the right to go and get the big scores and how would you do that? You have to go through a few tough times. You can't just throw your hands at everything. You can't just think that you're in when you're on 16 and 17. And you look at a lot of the dismissals around 60, 70. I think Harry Brook got to 91. And they were battered there. The weren't many jaffers around that time. And that's just individuals taking the responsibility to go and get the big scores.

Because to beat South Africa and South Africa, I can't see them beating South Africa without players getting hundreds. Individuals will have to get hundreds the same next year against Australia. So they've got to train the brain pretty soon to make sure this batting line up maximises their potential without just giving it away after 60 or 70 runs. Voney, what is it about good players struggling with the keeper standing up? Because clearly, Joe Ruiz has been pinned quite a number of times, LBW. Why is it so hard for really, really outstandingly good players to adjust to something that's so simple? I'll be honest with you. I probably faced David Masters and maybe Jimmy Mascarainus for Hampshire with the keeper stood up. And I used to just try and bat a bit leg side to make sure I was playing with the bat. And if you beat me on the outside edge, well, I just think, OK, I can sneak it to the keeper or to the cordon. I think a lot of these players are covering their outside edge.

So that knit back becomes the real threat. So I think Joe Ruiz and his last innings where he got a six job now, Mahamada Bass, Bond and Atoverspell. And I don't recollect seeing Joe Ruiz getting hit on the pads once. He just went a little bit more leg side. He played some nice four different shots. He didn't score freely because Mahamada Bass because he didn't ball many bad balls. But he never really looked like he was going to get out and the ball was still nipping. You know, he played and missed it a few balls. So he got beaten on the outside edge. A little bit fortunate where he's snick one through the cordon. If it had been taken, he would have had a few budges because he's covered his LBW. Now he's snick one just outside of stump and it had been all over for that. I'll do I'll do I'll do I'll do the LBW in South Africa. I think it's as easy as that. And it's not easy, obviously. But Joe Ruiz worked away by going a bit more leg side. And I honestly think that's what most players will start to do to cover that knit back. Because the knit backer brings in LBW. And if you get done by one that kind of nips on off someone nips away from you,

you know, that's a decent cherry. So I would be covering the LBW in the balls because that's been the major threat. Is it like, sorry, what are budges? I've never heard of. Well, you've got plenty of them. I could tell you that. What are they, the noughts? Well, he just didn't you know when they put you around your head. I know. Is it? God, it was that. If it's a fad, if it's, is it a fad, Michael, do you think? Is it Stuart Broad's been vocal about it? Just wanted to see it in the ashes next summer. So is it a fad? Or do you think it will become a valid weapon for a bowling attack? It's absolutely a valid weapon. And I don't understand why Stuart wouldn't want to see it because I find it intriguing. I really do. I mean, I love quick bowling, the bounces, I love a bit of cheer music. I love our players can cope with that. This is a different skill that's arrived in the game. And I think it's really questioning a lot of technical players.

And you know, we've said for a few years, how many players have actually got a solid forward defense? There's not many. Not many in the whole game around the world have got a solid forward defense. Well, this tactic requires you to have one. So I love it. I think we'll see a lot of it in the ashes. I think Australia will certainly be looking at England's batting lineup as well the likes of Oliver Robinson. Look at Australia's batting lineup because Steve Smith, Travis, said their key players. I think you can get them with the key pistol up, challenging their forward press. And I think Michael Nees has got ball and will certainly be doing the same to the lives of Joe Rout Harry Brook and Co. So I think it's great for the game that there's a new kind of tactic, a new piece of skill that's been delivered. Is now to the batters to try and come up with an answer or two? It's not the first time that it's happened. I mean, you go back into the day. I mean, we were talking to Bumble, weren't we? Was it Ken Shackleton or... You know, I've come in a little bit before, long time, and Balic Bed sir, I used to try and the luck, you know, hit the top of off-stump ball after ball with the keeper stood up.

So it's not something that's new that's happened. It's just something that's reemerged as a tactic. And the other thing about that is that you've now got to have a bona fide wicketkeeper. You know, you've got to have a wicketkeeper. And I love watching that. I mean, some of the skills that have been on show, we mentioned Jordan Cox and Jamie Smith. They're getting better at it now. But, you know, you see that skill on show standing up to 80 mile an hour. It's... I think it's great. I think it's good for the game. Well, I think Jamie Smith actually showed a lot of resolve this year to come off the back of the way the ashes went for him. To then be asked to stand up to the stumps in tricky conditions and do it without any... I can't really remember any periods where he was dropping them or looked uncomfortable. And that's something that I think for him to have done that off the back of the way that the win to win was... It's been really impressive. He rediscovered his batting form as well.

It felt as though he was more imposing again as a batter and making good decisions. So I think he's had a good summer on the whole headlined by that wicketkeeping up to the stumps that tough as reference to him. Yeah, I think you're right. I've been finni... I'll put... You know, I mentioned Oli Robinson being the real plus. But I will say Jamie Smith's keeping because every morning I've seen him on that field with Sarah Taylor catching tennis ball after tennis ball. Doing loads of drills. He reminds me of Matt Pryor back in the day when he worked with Bruce French. He was out there getting down and dirty. Alex Kary in the winter. We were crying out for some drills in the winter. The England seam looked like they were practicing before play. Well, it was a little bit... It was a little bit clubby for most of the winter. And when he and C. Jamie Smith do these drills, he's come out this summer. He's worked hard and he's keeping his binublo. I mean, Alex Kary, you could argue, was the standout in terms of his skill. What he delivered in the ass is, well, I think Jamie Smith's done it equally as well this summer. So it deserves a lot of credit as does Sarah Taylor for the work she's playing.

Does it feel too steepen as though it is a... I appreciate Phil's point that nothing is new. But does it feel like in a game that for many, many years, bat has dominated ball and the bat has had different techniques and new shots and this and the other? This is something where ballers can fight back a bit. Well, yeah, it makes me want to dust my bowling boots off every now and again. When I saw a couple of those pictures at Laws, Trumb, and Trumb going. No, no, no, no. I'm not a pass, Trumb. Yeah, I just think it's fascinating how... And this is why I love Test Crick-A-R is because it just throws so many different weird things at you. 18 months ago, would you have thought that we'd be sat here on a phone and talking about the wicket keeper standing up to the stumps to 80 mile in our bowling? No. But it throws these amazing challenges at you as a player. It questions your intuition as someone watching it because you're there watching it. I haven't played Test Crick-A-R thinking... Exactly what Stuart Broad saying.

This doesn't feel like Test Crick-A-R with the keeper stood up to the stumps, but it evolves. It changes. It goes through periods in different directions. So, yeah, it's... I don't think it's a fad, I think, that as long as the pictures are behaving as they are and batter's techniques are as they are, as bold as you work out how to take wickets and at the moment it seems to be the premier way to take wickets in the test format, especially in the UK. And also, it... a balanced attack. That is what Crick-A-R has really been a bell, you know, the men, it's been a bell... You know, a chap that can do that. You want your 90 miles an hour. And we've talked about, you know, the plushies, England scene to have that a little bit now. I'm a little bit, you know, wouldn't might... But they can swing it as well. They can... they all can swing it a little bit. But the real challenge is those flat pitches and better teams can only rob you to do that when not much is happening on a hot day in South Africa. Well, I'll say to that, he's on the third day where...

Brother Ola, who was exceptional, his debut for Pakistan, started to smokey to all parts with the Mahamid Abbas. You look at the figures that day. Ola Robinson still had tremendous figures. You know, was he two for forty, whereas the rest were going at five and a half, six, he's... I think what he'll offer, even when he's not probably charging through the top order or mid-lord. I think he's going to offer you control. And you ask any captain, what do you want? He's controlled. And sometimes control comes from your spin-outs. Sometimes you control, come from your medium-quicks. And I think that's what the TATIC will bring is a control element to the captain's seat. I'll be intrigued to see... When he starts talking about that selection now, you generally just pick your best bowlers, don't you kind of work out who they are. I think you've now got to start thinking, if Ola Robinson's not in the team, who's going to be the Ola Robinson? Because you're going to need that TATIC covered. There's no point in picking another 90 mile an hour, 87 mile an hour baller, because you know, Jamie Spiss not going to be able to come up. There will be times inside that for come in the ball, probably bounce a bit more.

So it might not work as effectively as it has done here, but there's going to be times inside that for come where that TATIC is going to work again. So when you start picking your side, you know, for Ola Robinson missing out, will it be Sam Cork, will it be Matthew Fisher? George Hill from Yorkshire's having another stellar season. His style of bowling now comes into the equation, because he balls with the keypasted up, he gets a bit of wobble seam. Not saying he's going to go to South Africa, but that style of bowling, or all of a sudden, probably running in with a little bit more glee, knowing that they've got a chance to play in such much cricket. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Going back to sort of how we started this bit with what Fleming's to do list was, and positives and negatives. What is the balance of this team for South Africa? What are you doing about the spinner? What is your top seven? Because the bowling attack, the pace side of the bowling attack,

as we've all spoken about, kind of at the moment, takes care of itself. But there are so many questions around those other areas, partly due to balance and partly through who's missing, through injury, and how you rejig it, aren't they? Well, they need to spin a ruckum back. I think nowadays, especially in Test Match cricket, I'm low to say it, but I don't think that you can have a spinner who's not great in the field and can't back, perhaps seven or eight, and that's what they're desperately looking for. And then all of a sudden, the rounder comes into it. Do you get the spinner in by perhaps playing a current? They've at the moment gone a little bit with Dan Lawrence, and they're trying to make him into a bit of a bits and pieces. And perhaps then you've got a bit of Joe and Bethel, if he plays and what have you. But I'm slightly concerned about the whole spin or angle, actually,

because it's not seeming to be addressed. You keep seeing Bashir on the team sheet, all these Test Matches, and you kind of know for well that he's not going to get a go. He can't even get in the Metro Bank side for Derby, or whatever I think the step was not going to be about. So I am concerned about that, because Bangladesh coming up, they might play two, they might play three spinners, and you've got to be able to nowadays. It's become a little bit like the keeper's spot. You've got to be able to get yourself in there and bat nicely and field nicely nowadays. Mike, what do you think? You're a skip. I think South Africa is quite an easy one. I don't think you're going to need a spinner, like the focal point of your attack. I'd go with the same formula that we've had throughout the summer. I think it's the same jury in ground, and the Wanderers will be very seen by friendly. So you'll need your four quicks, and down Lorange will be fine at number six. I guess the big F will be, does Jacob Bethel come straight back into the side?

I personally don't think he should. I think Jordan Cox is the right, and Jacob will need a better cricket. If he has a load of cricket and is in great form, of course, you have that conversation when that comes around in December, but I don't know how much cricket he will have had by then. Bangladesh is a different story because you're going to need spin. Look, K-town now, and again, you can get spinners into the game. But I think the three test matches in South Africa, I think this formula will be fine. The two test matches in Bangladesh, I think you've got to take what you believe is your best spin. Marcus North recently came out and said that Sherwin Boucher is still in the number one spinner. I totally disagree. I think Jack Leach is in the number one spinner by a distance. You look at what he does for Somerset on a regular basis. Yes, he's left arm, but if you've got spinning wickets in Bangladesh, I want someone that's just going to land it on a left because the pitch does the rest for you. And Jack Leach is that ball of freedom. And if we start talking about sensing the England team, I believe there is a little bit more sense in terms of the way that they operate and the way that they select teams.

You just pick your best spinners. Some like Don Bers, you look at what Don Bers is doing. 28 years of age, four or five years ago, he didn't look ready at all. He had a little bit of a spell in the England. So I think he's a better cricketer now. A lot better than when they picked in the first side. So I don't think you should be ruling out people like Don Bers, certainly not Jack Leach. And I personally would pick them over showb us here because I just don't think Sherwin don't quite enough. He's played a bit for Darbyshire. And what harm is it going to do to show it by sheer? If you went to South Africa, didn't play any cricket and then you throw him into a couple of tests in Bangladesh, why don't you some cricket? You know, try and get him some cricket so he's bowling so then he puts himself in a position to potentially play or go to Bangladesh. But as we sit here now, if you ask me who the best spinners in England to go to playing Bangladesh to win that test series, I personally wouldn't have showb us here near that party. Stephen? Yeah, when I think about the balance of the team and how you fit all these plays, it's like a Rubik's cube where there's one square out on each side

and you turn it over, you think, well, I've cracked it, but we're short in this area. It always feels like because of that lack of a front front line spinner that's nailed on to being the 11, like a Graham Swan, who was one and a million, wasn't he really for England? It feels like you're always trying to hedge your bets or cover yourself elsewhere. I wonder if, I don't think they'll do it in South Africa, but if they do find themselves on a pitch where you need a spinner, not in Bangladesh, but in South Africa, if they find themselves on a dry wicket like Durban that can be good for semas, but then spins later on, Moan Ali got wickets there when we won in 2016. Whether they might look to play with three semas under spinner as their four bowlers, when I played England, we played as a four man attack the entire time. It was me, Broad Anderson and Swan. I wonder whether with the control that Robinson gives you within that unit, whether they might think about balancing the side that way,

without feeling as though they're having to cut short elsewhere. Who's you spinning going to be? I went for the selector job, but then I was interviewed for the selector job in Jack Leach was my number one spinner when I was asked my test team, because I agree with you. I think that he is experienced. He's had ups and downs, but he has been a consistent performer for a long time. The numbers back that up in the domestic system as well, don't they? If you were looking for a finger spinner to bowl someone out on the last day, Leach would probably be your go to in England, I think. I think this isn't going to go at show, I think he's done pretty well. We were saying it the other day, this has been one of the hottest summers we've had on record, isn't it? You're not going to get any drier pitches than the ones that were here, and the spinner didn't even come into the equation. You start thinking, well, he's a bit of a dying arm,

unless that leaky comes on all that mystery bowl, or you can warp it at seven and eight, I just don't know how a spinner gets into the side, unless it is a Bangladesh series, which you almost then complete. It's a completely different kettle. It's like you're going to play a completely different formation in Bangladesh. That's not going to affect the Ashley series, because it's completely different conditions. It's just making sensible decisions and picking experience players to make sure that you're going there. They'll say the picture I wish you were going there to win, and that's his opportunity because the ball's going to be spinning. I just see him as a young player that needs a lot more cricket, and I think it'll serve him this cricket better if they're just took him out of the system just for a while. He could go on the lines, he could get loads of bowling, play a few games of cricket, play a bit more for Derby's shirt. I'd love to see him play the whole season for Derby. I just play the whole season, see how many wickets you got, play another season, and look, he's only 20-22. Yeah.

We're talking about, your grandson didn't come into his own until he was 27-28. That's when he started to play for England. So, finger spinners and spinners in general, they generally take a little bit of warming up. You don't need to rush them. I completely agree. I think that's when you look at it as someone who liked to bowl and felt as I got better when I bowled. Spin bowling is an art, right? Being able to vary your pace with the same arm speed is an art, and to allow Bashir the space to be able to explore that out of the spotlight, and learn that craft out of the spotlight without people having these conversations as we are now, I think it was a great opportunity for them this summer for us to be sat here now saying, well, look at how much Bashir has developed. Look at what he has done in the domestic game to begin banging the door down, to be able to learn that craft that is spin bowling. I mean, it's art, right? Learning how to vary your pace with that same arm speed. You can't just do it on the job.

No, absolutely, and it's just about being happy with yourself, knowing where you are at your game, and that experience of having to bowl in different conditions and different situations. It's the whole raft of things, no disrespect for any, but you used to run in, try not to red-soft, and that was where it finished a little bit, wasn't it? No disrespect. No, you know what I mean. There is so much more to sort of just being young and fit, and 21, and being able to steam in and bowl aggressively. I wasn't being rude, there's this thing. It's a bit like, there's a lot more than goes on in your brain, and you have to have that body of work behind you. And I completely agree with you, Steve. It is one of the difficult things to do a test match cricket, to learn your craft at test match cricket is very, very tough, and especially for a swim bowl. Particularly in recent times, within an England group that just dealt that long enough for the pitches to wear.

You know, Fel, don't you? You want your bat to pass the bat through so much time, so the whole start to develop. This test game is played at fast-forward. I think it's the least amount of spinovers in the UK, since what is old-site, tough visits, it's going by many generations. It's just no spin-bomb of this summer, and that's a shame. I mean, I hope, well, the one thing I'll agree with, is that if the keeper stood up tactics replaced his spin in test cricket, I'm going to be very disappointed. Oh, what they can tell you are saying, you're saying only Robinson could be the spinner of the summer. It kind of is, isn't it? It is your holding end bowler when conditions get a little bit flat. You know, there's no spin out there. Against these plays these days, that just reverse sweep and do all the tricks, pop it out the ground. I think as a captain, if I'm trying to gather some control or probably, trust all the Robinson with the keeper stood up to bowl a few more dots in a tweaky finger spinner,

like yourself, Fel. You know what now? I think you might be right, Mark. You know what you talk about that? You talk about that interview for the selector's job, Fel. Just going back to what you said there. Do you, when they ask you what your test team will be, do you think they're looking for you to think outside the box at all? And so, a not a random name, but maybe somebody a little bit different comes into your test 11. What do you think they're looking for when they ask you that question? I don't know. Whatever I didn't do, I didn't know. But when you think about it, do you think, oh, maybe I should put somebody slightly different in there to show them X or Y? Well, I suppose they're kind of looking for you to have a method of the way that you would select players, whether that's using your eyes or statistics. I think it was an opportunity in that to kind of suggest to them

what your style would be and how you would go about looking at players that you think were of an international standard. I think that you can see an international player when you see them play for the very first time. They look calm, they look assured, they look confident with what they're doing. There's a certain way they move their body when they're either batting or bowling or fielding. That you watch them, you think that's an international player that's ready for immediate selection. But then also I think behind that and the layers underneath that is who is the next cab off the rank. You've got your eight or nine guys who are setting stone to be in that team. It's then working out the gaps or the people that might have slipped through the net to then work out who are the next people that could potentially be those international players. I think there are many different layers to it. I think this is where Stephen Fleming's going to be very good. Very thoughtful. Captain himself, he'll be great for this England side.

I think he's going to be tough when he wants to be. But I think that he'll, you know, like this Bangladesh team coming up, you know, perhaps in the past, the four seamers would have all taken the wickets and everything and they would have all got on the plane to Bangladesh and perhaps three out of the four were the played. Bangladesh would have played four and we'll sit there scratching the weds going, oh, no, well, that don't seem right. You know what I mean? But I think they, Stephen Fleming will come in and I think it'll be very good at pinpointing all these different things that Finney was just saying. Let's say from Brendan McCullough known where, of course, this is the first series that Kevin Peterson will be in his new role as a specialist mental. So here is McCullough on how that all came about. I rank him and said, don't come and help us challenge for a World Cup. And I think he was a bit shocked initially and then over a couple of different conversations and catch ups, obviously appreciative of how busy he is

and how many opportunities he has in other walks of life out there. So I knew that it would be a bit of a stretch in terms of trying to get him to commit to us for the entire time. But look, he came back unbelievably enthusiastic and positive and the energy is brought to the group already has been immense and I feel very privileged for us to be able to have him as a resource within our dressing room. He was obviously a brilliant cricketer. He viewed the game quite differently. He was a winner and he was a guy who left no stone on turn when it came to his preparation. And I think for us we're very lucky to have him as part of our support staff and a lot of these guys grew up watching Kevin play and idolized him. So as a coach, you're trying to provide these guys with the best environment so that they can try and achieve what they want and adding Kevin's certainly that. He's somebody that has been somewhat critical of certain methods in the past. Have you managed to put that behind you, you two? I have no problem with that. I think that was one of the first things we talked about. He said, you know, I was just criticizing a lot and a long-awaited. So I didn't care about that. Some of it's fear and some of it would need some explanation.

But I have no problem with that. I think it's healthy. When you create an environment where you're out to challenge, as long as you're always trying to think of what's right for the team and to try and help the team to achieve what you want, then there's no problem having that kind of challenging. In fact, I actually mentioned to him, I see this one thing I want him to do is it's not just bearing himself in the bad thing per se. But look across the entire environment, look across how we run things and what we do and there's anything you pick up and things come and challenge me on it. And you know, how can I get on well? We had natural respect playing against each other and we spent a bit of time together and lasted a while and I'm super excited to have him as part of our support staff as well. And speaking of how it's all going to work, what about Stephen Fleming, that relationship, particularly when you look at the workload of players next year to huge events and the ashes and the work on it, how is it all going to work? Yeah, well first of all, I'm really excited for Fleming to take over the test side as well. He's one of my best mates. We talk regularly. He's just like me, but better.

And he'll do an amazing job. He's the right person to be able to take that team forward. And I'm delighted for the guys on the test side that they get the opportunity to have Fleming as their coach because he's a great man, but he's also an incredible coach and a great tactician as well. Very well planned, very meticulous. He likes to create environments which allow guys to succeed and ultimately win. I think from our point of view, we've been already, we've been chatting around how we're going to try and manage some of the workloads of players and make sure we're still with our best players available for the big series. And that'll be an ongoing conversation. We'll sit down on the coming days and map out a bit of a pathway for a few guys, but naturally, guys can't play all year round. You can have to work out times that you can take them out of the physical duties of international cricket, freshen up, and then other times that you have them all ready to go. But that'll be easy conversations between two good mates with the motivation of what's right for English cricket.

What do you want to get out of three T20 matches with Sri Lanka in the middle of September, Michael? Three wins, simpler as I mean. The line's team absolutely pasted them a challenge, but on Friday night, Sri Lanka in the middle of September, or it's a bit chilly. I can't imagine that they're going to be really enjoying the conditions. I was just winning. I don't know, and Donald's going to make his debut. So great opportunity for him. I guess you're just looking at the talent pool grown and if Donald can strike, he's a player that struck it over 200 in the blast this season. So he's in fine form. So I like that selection. I think it's good to pick players when they're full of confidence. But ultimately, it's just winning three games. It's just winning the three games and obviously, when the 50-h overstuff as well. I guess it's this split coach in a Fleming and McCullum's always going to be on watch because it's never really worked that well across many teams.

So it's always going to be who's getting the kind of players and how they're going to communicate and how they're going to make sure that the managers and the players work like going forward. But I would expect England to win all the games. I can't see Sri Lanka give them too much of a game in these conditions. And maybe it is, Stephen, going back to what you talked about with when putting selection together and from what Michael said there. It's also about finding who those next cabs off the rank are if they're needed. Yeah, Donald, someone that I'm really excited about watching actually because you look at the power at the top of the order for England. If anything, he enhances that with the way that he plays. He hits it in quirky areas. So yeah, but fascinated to see how he does and really hope that he takes his opportunity and then Kevin Peterson, in fact, how he is going to fit into that environment is probably the undertone to this series. I think I like the move. I actually think that it's a really good thing and the way that McCullum spoke about it.

They're about wanting to be challenged. I think if you were to critique the, or one of the critiques of the test team over the last few years was that you could say it's been an echo chamber or has seemed to be an echo chamber from the outside looking in where you're positively reinforced all the time. Kevin won't do that. I played a lot with Kevin at the beginning of my career and he was never shy in coming forward if he didn't think something was being done correctly, whether that was practice or whether that was in preparation to play or decision making out in the middle. And it sounds like McCullum is encouraging him to do that role in this environment as well as a mentor or a coach, which I think at a stage where the team is number one in the world and they're doing well, it'd be really easy for them to say we've cracked it, we've sussed it, and that might be how they felt after two years of playing test cricket together. I think McCullum may have learned from his mistakes with that test team to say that now when things are going well, there's a really good time to introduce that kind of influence to the dressing room

to make sure we're still moving forward, so I'm all for him. Tough as you nodding along? No, no, great shout, I just said, I think, I mean, Brendan's just speaks so well, doesn't he? You know what I mean? He just comes across fabulously. Yeah, I'm 4KP, what he did this, say that there, though, Stevie, was sort of, and the underlying thing is Kevin Peterson. Well, he's a mentor. There is an opportunity that he might become sort of too big for the team, if you know what I mean. There's got some very, very high profile coaches there, haven't they? And, you know, I make you right, but that's the only little sort of granular sort of stuff that I might as be scratching my head saying, OK, let's just see how that goes. But I think you're right, I think that Brendan has learned from his mistakes and I think that back kind of person, Mike Peterson, just there to pull everyone up a little bit. So long as it doesn't get too sort of like, OK, you're sicker, I think there's a good appointment.

Well, the final few minutes of Five Life Cricket, we're going to talk about Club Cricket. More specifically, Shepard Bush Cricket Club, who yesterday became ECB National Club Champions. Here's the moment they hit the winning runs. And if you've seen it across social media, we haven't embellished the sound effects there. There are hundreds of people who run on when the winning runs are hit. Luke Matthews was at the crease at the time, even in Luke. Evening, John. No, thank you very much for coming on. Those scenes at the end, I mean, apart from the fact, it looks like a lot of people are going to be in the game. Luke. Evening, John. No, thank you very much for coming on. Those scenes at the end, I mean, apart from the fact, it looks like you're playing in November. The scenes are phenomenal. The Bush Army. They don't travel lightly. They don't go quietly.

Yeah, it was great fun. It takes me back to this and so on. How many people, how many people were in the Bush Army then? Do you think? I would say 250 traveling away, which is a great turnout for a fairly small club, which was brilliant. How does that affect you playing? Because I'm guessing you're not getting that many on a weekly basis. No, no, we've got five or six that follows around, which are always appreciated, but it's nerves. But then it's also inspiring. They're in a club cricket situation where everyone's a volunteer and everyone pays the bill. They're the people who you do it for. It's not the heroes of the day, etc. It's watching the 60-year-old men cry at the end of Danny's and Finals, which was great fun. Tell us what it means then for the cricket club as a whole. Tell us because the club crickets journeys to get to a final like this are never straightforward.

What does it mean and what was the journey to get to that point? We are a punch above our weight, where we're a club on the up. We've got a thriving junior section, five men's teams, three women's teams. And I mean, pay every player pays to play and we have to coach on a Friday night for the juniors for free. It's what it's done for everybody around the club. There's brought everyone back together and every walk of life was there yesterday in terms of anyone who supports the bush from all the way from the junior all the way through to playing ladies, cricket or community teams that we support locally. It's been a journey and there's been a lot of people on the way with us. And yeah, it's been top class from everyone involved throughout. Hello, mate, congratulations. Well done. I've played against a bush on quite a few occasions.

There was always a good social side down at the bush, wasn't there? You did go down there and have a really good community feel and everyone had a good time, didn't they? We are. We're I think we're the most central Premier League club. So we get we get a good social. The boys give it a good go. I think from reports I was in bed nice and early. I think it was a 7 a.m. lock up of the club on a Monday morning, which gives you a bit of an insight into a Sunday night of 200 people coming back to shepherd's bush after a wormsly away win. So yeah, you probably got a good taste of it. What what has the season been like before getting to obviously yesterday? So it was that was the it was the seventh game of knockout cricket. So nervous is how I would summarize it. It's just it's constant nail bites. I don't know how much you've looked into it, but the last that was the fourth game that we've won in the last over. We've chased every game. So we've taken our supporters through through hell to chase everyone.

We've lost five tosses out of those seven. Luckily yesterday. Finn are standing captain must have taken out a different point because we did win it before the rain came down. So it was a good toss to win. But yet, nervous throughout great journey and knockout cricket and club cricket brings the best out of a community club like us. You have a kind of whimsical look on your face for me. I love it. I love stories like that. I mean, I remember when I played for Chef Ecclegi in the 90s that they managed to get to the final and got the job done. And those moments and memories from playing in the first team down at Abedale sit with me as much as playing for Yorkshire and playing for England. That's actually where I learned the game. It does feel anecdotally and what I hear from friends club cricket is still thrives. I mean, you have to put a lot of work in and it relies on volunteers and you know, whether it can be awful at times or not this summer.

But the community still thrives. It does. People rely on each other. It's friendships. It's people putting in extra hours completely unseen. There's youth coaches, there's groundsmen, there's Germans and meetings that happen in January that makes a big difference. Club cricket, I would say, is people adding teams to their clubs all the time. So it is thriving. And it means an awful lot to a lot of people that have been around the club and county cricket and middle-sex league cricket. The years and years and years we've had hundreds of messages coming in about how it's played and the sort of the lasting memories that will give to the supporters. And we won't forget it as a playing group. It's been fantastic. Well, congratulations again and thank you for your time this evening, Luke. Well done. Just a little bit. Thank you. Thank you. That's Luke Matthews, who is at the crease when those winning runs were scored for Shepherd's Bush cricket club. Michael Phel, Stephen, thank you. Very much.

The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. So much sport today, but all the goals as they go in up and down the leads. This is Five Life Sports. It's all ice for the lights and better for the club. It's not a stop-up. It's not a stand-in round 18, please. Oh, I can't. What is the station? It's the service to the centre. And we'll do it. Right hand and before the champion is down, it's the strong restart. They've got on a show for us tonight. You get on his knees and kisses the door. Five Life Sports. The home of the world's greatest sporting events. Let's see the full time with the listen on BBC Sounds.

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