Me on Benjamin Boyce

0:00How you been man, yeah, I really have not been being much of a content creator as of late just because I've been so busy, but well, depends on what you should define as content, right? Right. I think we should just stop using the word content in general. Actually, I think it's a bad word. What are we going to replace it with slop? How's the slop? Slop life going. I feel like content already implies slop in a way. Content is a horrible term. I love it. It's just like content. When they look at the editing, it's just full filling. It's just filling in your twinkly content. It's like hummus, yeah. What is it? Content. Oh, content. No, other one. That which is contained, yeah, that which is contained.

1:00So something that's, yeah, fills something else. Yeah, it is slop, basically. Yeah, filler. Slop, filler, right? Exactly. Contained. Well, okay, so you're not, you're not into that anymore. In what? Content. No, I am. I just, I've just been busy. Just with work in your business? Yeah, this is what I do on agency stuff. Which is great, but it's still will, will agency. Yeah, yeah. Are you guys doing it already right now? Are we on? It feels like, well, I'm always on. Yeah. But we can do it. Yeah, okay, good. I don't care. Whatever you want. Because I like the banter. But because that's the springboard for the whatever happens beyond content. For the ju-talk. Oh, everything, everything is just the springboard for ju-talk. It seems that it seems to just drag everything into itself.

2:01There's some interesting discourse about discourse is another word, just like the same thing as content. But Elon and no, Hunter Ash and Nick Land and Elon were in a discussion about the strategic shallowness of the JQ and right wing discourse. Hmm. Strategic shallowness. I saw Nick Land saying go be friends with face Jews. I saw that. Yeah, is there like a, is there like a list somewhere? Yeah, well, that's what I'm trying to get on the list. I was like, can I be on the list? Why am I not on this list? I should be number one on this list. But yeah, no, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know what's going on with that. Okay. Um, but did you guys get any ads in the Super Bowl? No, oh my god. Yeah, we're not even close to that level. Okay, that's, I mean, Super Bowl ads are sort of ancient,

3:02you know, ancient practice. They're like really outdated. They're extraordinarily expensive and stupid. And no, we don't really do a lot of TV ads. We're a branding and content studio. So we do a lot more social stuff, a lot more brand videos and email campaigns and, you know, the stuff people actually really consume. Whereas in today's world, the Super Bowl ad is a really outdated sort of thing that just huge companies do. And that's why they're so bad. That's why it's always like three celebrities. It's like three celebrities in a pond. It's like three celebrities saying a pond that somehow implicates the name. And then it's like, oh, a shark pops up because it's a shark pond. I'm trying to avoid saying goats because even saying goat is now so outdated that I can't even talk about it. But, uh, yeah, so it's like really bad.

4:02It's Super Bowl ads are extremely, extremely poorly done. Was there anyone of this, this, uh, this batch that you thought edged? I kept me, you know what? I didn't even do my like normal due diligence of like watching each one again and like commenting on them. So I can't even remember. I mean, there's two that's basically free color tip for you. I know. Right? There's one saying content. I don't do that to anyone. Yeah, no, I, uh, right. It's like, no, like I do the only ads I've been sent my impression with recently are the, uh, the AI ads are pretty good. Both both the companies do pretty good ads that are like pretty well fun out and pretty strong. Oh, there was the one. Yes, right. There was the one, uh, must've been clawed ad of it was a woman talking, uh, in sort of as, as an AI explaining something and then she's, she's an older lady and then she starts talking

5:04about dating older women singles in her area. That was pretty well done. And it was, it was like ads are coming to AI, but not to clawed. So that was like, uh, a plus conceptual, surprising, well-written, well-produced, um, a grade advertising. And I'm pretty sure their agency is, you know, they have one of the big ones. Uh, I think Chuck GPT is widened Kennedy and, uh, clawed is probably, you know, whatever the other big one is these days. Um, but yeah, yeah, there was that disturbing one with, uh, who was the actor? Uh, was it Tatum Channing Tatum or something? Anyways, Tatum Channing Tatum Channing or maybe it was the guy who played, uh, no, no, it was the guy who played Thor. I like that actor and it was about, yeah, Helmsworth. And he was like, like, Siri or Amazon's AI was trying to kill him.

6:07Oh, no, yeah, I didn't see that one. Okay, yeah, that was kind of interesting. Was that a good one? Yeah. Uh, well, I mean, it's disturbing. Um, because it's like, yeah, that's all of our fears, right? Yeah, you said something interesting about, uh, there's this little hint of something interesting about saying goat is outdated. The relationship between time and relevance in your industry is really heightened. I mean, talk about high time preference. You have, how do you, how does one develop a sense of what is relevant? What's not relevant? What's cringe or old? Like the, the dating, like if there's a carbon dating and advertising, some of it escapes it, but most of it just composts almost immediately. Well, I have two things to say about this. One is this is not really how it's always been. It, it didn't use to be that you needed to have some hyper contextual, stupid thing

7:08where it's some, it's Chappelle Ron, because you vaguely know who that is, plus some saying, uh, six, seven, right? Chappelle Ron saying, oh my god, that's super, well, could you imagine if we could get Chappelle Ron to say six, seven, I'm TV, you know, like that, that sort of calculus is, that's new. And I don't think that that's necessarily the fault of anybody. I mean, that we live in that world right now where everything's cheap, hyper contextual, fast, everybody forgets about it in two seconds, and that's just the way the cycle works, right? So I think the part of it is just the nature of information now, but that's not always how it's been. It used to be you, you know, if you were widening Kennedy back in the day, you were marinating on your Nike commercial really outside of the news cycle. You, you weren't caring about what was actually happening, you know?

8:08Whereas now that type of news peggy thing is, is really, really preferred. And I think that, you know, that it sucks is cheap, but it's also like, that's just kind of the way things are. We live in this deep-fried reference-weighting context art world now for better or worse. I mean, sometimes it's hilarious. So sometimes it's great, but yeah, I think that's kind of why that's happening. Yeah. How do you, how do you guys strategize through that or around that, or what are some strategies when, because I mean, your Twitter handle is disgrace propaganda. So we're talking about advertisement. We're also talking about propaganda, but we're talking about information, but we're talking about content and how people are engaging with content and stuff. So there's this landscape, like this mimetic landscape that you're manipulating. You're trying to be a master wizard, right? That's what an ad man is. I'm not trying to be a master wizard. And I don't, so there's kind of a difference between

9:08growth hacking, right? And propaganda. And growth hacking is like, that's when you're trying to be a master wizard of the algorithm, and you know exactly how to do this and this, which will lead to virality and all that kind of stuff. And that to me is a lot less interesting than telling the story of things, simplifying the story of things in a genuine way, not even so much for the customer as for the company. You know, I mean, I think that people struggle with who they are, right? People really struggle with who they are. And that's never true, more true than with companies, companies struggle with who they are. A lot. And they, you know, the use, I use an example all the time in my sort of workshops where we set this up for brands. Do you remember something happened with Facebook? And even just before 2016, where Facebook was this company that was sort of sitting around.

10:14And at a certain point, everybody suddenly started hating Facebook. Yeah. And it was because they were like, wait a second, they're selling our data. You know, this was the whole era of if you want the product. Every single update to the platform made it worse, too. I mean, there's a lot of crap. Right. This was when we started getting hate with targeted ads. And we were like, what the hell is this? You know, we, we, we, we, we was Google one day. And then suddenly we're getting at this. And everybody, this was the era of everybody saying the refrain. If you're not paying for the product, you are the products, right? So the Facebook had this whole existential crisis where everybody realized, oh, Mark Zuckerberg is not your friend. He's actually completely exploiting you. And they was sort of this realization. So so in response to that, Facebook got a branding agency just like ours to come around and give them their new, what we call single-minded message. So

11:15like your core identity of what is your brand? What do you stand for? Why do you exist? And the thing that they chose was Facebook connects people. We are the grand connector of human beings. Who could be mad? Who could be mad at a company that just we just connect human beings together. And their their logo became metal, which is like a connection thing. Their conferences called connects their career services thing is called connect every for a long time. Every single interview Zuckerberg gave was we think human connection is a human right. It's all the bullshit about we're just the connecting thing. And you know, did it work? Maybe. I mean, who really cares? But it did at least again, that's almost more important for Facebook. It's more important so that those people get to wake up every day and say, you know what? I'm getting paid and I've seen a lot of money. Everybody hates me at my dinner parties. But you know what? I really just believe in

12:21the power of human connection. You know what I mean? That's really what I'm here to do. And so when you're dealing with companies in today's world that are just, you know, they're basically armies, right? These armies need to have a they need drums and they need a a feeling of why we're here and what we're doing. And I'd say that that's really what we provide even more so than all the other crap that we do, which is videos and websites and art and me, you know, social media, email growth campaigns. We do all that stuff. But I would say the thing that I most fixate on is getting everybody in the company to believe something, you know, about about why you're here. And like, what are you doing that actually matters in the world? I met a McDonald's higher up, some guy who was in the bureaucracy of McDonald's. And this is a few years ago and McDonald's has this reputation of being crap, right? Yeah. But he said, you know, it's it's dependable. Like if I'm in

13:26Bangkok or if I'm in, you know, this country, that country, I know that I can trust this food, you know, like, I know, like, this is the place where I can go and I can eat and I can rely on this product. And his his way of seeing it, I'm like, Oh, okay, I understand that. But now that you're saying that it's like, he's probably that's what the company tells itself. Yeah. That's that's how the people believe in what they're doing. And there's a moral, there's a moral back. Right. And it's correct. There's nobody wants to go to work and feel like I'm just an amoral piece of crap, right? I mean, nobody wants to think that, you know, whether they end up, you know, there's some things really are that. I mean, McDonald's, I don't know. I have kind of a warm, fuzzy spot for McDonald's. Well, they're working. They're at they're at people working. Well, I think this was just a few after a few years after that supersized me a movie. So they probably had to respond to that. And that's really interesting how how public criticism can

14:27reshape a company because the company has to respond to these points of criticism and then reconfigure who they are based on this conversation with the public. Well, isn't it funny? It's so funny how sometimes that seems to matter, right? And then other times like companies treat us terrible, like airlines treat you horribly, like your cell phone provider try to get any answer. I mean, we are really poorly treated by these companies that we don't have a lot of choice over really. I mean, of course, you have some choice, but and it's funny how it's like some things become these huge, these huge like moments that need to be propagandized against. And then other things are just we don't care whatever. It doesn't matter. So it's weird. Like it's weird. Why I've never really totally understood why they decide that one thing is really important versus

15:28like not important. Yeah, it is funny. Every time I try to do something on Comcast's website, it's the slowest clonkiest thing. I'm like, you are the communication company and you're the shittiest communication. It's really interesting that trade off. How do you I think that there is a broader application to finding the identity of a company and then and drilling down into it. I don't know where you want to go or what you're really interested in right now because you say you're taking a break from content, which I don't want to say. The subtext of that is the subtext of that is politics and the political domain that you walk around as this thing called the dissident right. And one thing that defines the dissident rights identity is its identity crisis is perpetual. It's always doesn't know what it is, who it is. And the interesting thing following these different writers and thinkers and influencers and content creators is that it's personality

16:30driven, but there's different people that are trying to start something that's real. There's a lot of attempt to start something that's real and a lot of the energy in the direction is make it local, make it personal, make it make it make it something that's outside of this structure that's with these mitigating principalities and powers. So if we're talking about like a distributed pickup game of of politics, how does identity form and how do you persuade people to have an identity because in order for any sort of political action to happen, there has to be that those marching orders that motto and stuff like that. So how does that? I think it's about positive storytelling versus negative, right. And I think that the issue with the dissident right here is my giant fear that haunts me and that I'm really worried is true. Look, when I was trying to be a writer in the mainstream, I was a writer for Bice, I was writer for LA Weekly. I wasn't very good when I

17:34started. You know, I was good enough, I was good enough to write for these publications. I had interesting stuff to say. I was sort of a, you know, a fusive theater kid. I'm not an actual theater kid. My parents were theater people, but you know, I was like, here's my thoughts. Here's my thoughts, you know, like thoughts. You know what I mean? Like I was like dumb enough to think that anybody gave a shit what I was cared about what I was saying, which is you need that level of lack of self-awareness in order to even get there at all, right? So, you know, but I never got any real success. I never got a call from an agent. I never, I mean, I had some articles in some publications, right? But I, it's not, I never wrote for the New York Times. I never like had any of these superficial indicators that I was any really good, right? Simultaneously, my political consciousness went to the right, you know, as many did. I think I was

18:35telegraphing the fact that, you know, now we all know that a big part of the reason why I wasn't getting ahead is that I was not only a white dude, but like a right-leaning white dude, which is that's just never, was never going to happen. At the same time, I found purchase on the right, right? I did find purchase on the right. A lot of purchase. And I noticed that the purchase that I find in the right is when I'm complaining about the last, you know what I mean? So, what is that, what does that look like from an outside perspective? That looks like somebody who couldn't make it in the real game. So, you went over to the game where you get paid to complain about the game that you didn't fucking make it in, right? That fucking terrifies me. I never want to be a paid complainer about the thing that I didn't make it in. You know, that really fucking worries me. And I don't want to do that. I don't want to be involved in that. Well, it's pathetic. It's a

19:36pathetic existence. You know, I mean, if you are a genuine rebel, right? If you are a genuine rebel against the system that has discriminated against you or is just a shitty system, that's fine. That's one thing and that's one thing I'm down to do. That's probably what I was always meant to do, right? I was always meant to be a rebel against a more powerful system. That's cool. That's sexy. That's great. That's whatever. You know, and there's a little bit of that where I'm a loser, right? I mean, like, you know, punk rockers were losers. Black rappers were, you know, losers in a way, right? They were losers, but they were losers. We see them as losers for unfair reasons, right? Not because they couldn't hack it, but because they didn't really have a chance otherwise, right? Whereas my fear is that the dissonant right is just a bunch of people who couldn't hack it. They just couldn't figure out how to win the game over here. So instead, they kind of make their money complaining and other people are like, I didn't make it either.

20:39So I'm going to give you money to complain and make me feel good about the fact that I didn't make it either. You know, like that fucking terrifying because that just seems like a very pathetic existence to me. I don't want you to see yourself in this at all. You're a genuine journalist. You are somebody who's curious about people you're out there doing. This is, you know, I don't want you to think that I'm like putting anything you do down at all because I'm not. I'm genuinely not. You're a real, you're not a curious person. You're fronically and you're growing. That's a totally different thing. I mean, people who are like making their buck bloating politically about the left. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah. Well, no matter what, that's going to be a facilitating factor. That's why I think it was really interesting that when Trump won his second term, that's when the so-called, well, the whole dissidents fear started to purity spiral and try to shake out between the neocons basically,

21:41generally, broadly. You can call them the neocons. They're neoneocons. They're the people who were the disaffected liberals, the left left me's, the people who couldn't hack in this system and then started complaining about the wokeness in the system and got a lot of traction. But then once that woke stuff on the surface was put away, then the knot left started to attack itself and to draw all these different lines and stuff. But because we were unified in this anti-woke project. Yes, but beyond that, there's no unity. And so there is individual identity. There's a lot of individual identities. And maybe because I'm investigating this on a person-to-person interview by interview level, I see all these different actors. You're seeing the different little balkanized groups. Yeah. But I'm trying to see, well, what's this group identity? And then there's these labels that come in. I think Neocon is the best, like the James Lindsay's, the Constantine

22:45Kissins, the Winston Marshall's, I guess Jordan Peterson's too. They want to correct that old order. And then there's people who, for shallow reasons, selfish reasons or deep reasons, want to reconfigure the system or destroy the system in order to get something else going. And then there's just people who want to watch the world burn. And there's that resentment. So that resentment's just going to be there no matter what. Yeah. But beyond that, like what is the positive story of a knot left? Right. That's the problem. That is exactly the problem. Is that when they're not flowing stones at a hilariously and completely idiotic woke regime, which is so, by the way, which was such an easy target, really the easiest target of all of all time, impossible to screw up making fun of guys and dresses. That's really hard to mess up. You know what I mean? It's just

23:46an error. It's an error to come eat again. Right. So, you know, like this is the problem. This is the exact problem. Is that you've identified it perfectly. Is that these groups don't know how to shut the f up and and come together around a shared vision of what do we stand for here? Yeah. Oh, because as I said in that tweet that went viral recently, they are a decentralized network of complaint mechanisms. That's what they are. They're a decentralized network of Heckler's vetoes. Yes. So, therefore, all they know how to do, it's like a hammer and a nail thing. It's like they're hammered so everything's an nail. They don't know how to make a story about freedom, about equality, about the power of the human spirit, you know, and Randy and glory.

24:48They don't know how to fucking do that because they're just reacting. You know, they're reacting and criticizing to look at the guy in the dress. So, what could we, I think you're asking me, what could the story be? Yeah. Well, we could workshop the story, but what is the preconditions of creating that story in a distributed network? Oh, what is, wait, oh, what is the preconditions? What do you mean? Yeah, well, how do you move people to a place where they can start to facilitate the creation of a positive story? Right. What is the preconditions to get these people on the same page or relating to themselves, relating to themselves productively without having a common enemy? Beyond a common enemy. Right. Well, there's always going to be a common enemy. I don't think there's anything wrong with having a common enemy in general. That's sort of inevitable. I mean, I think the closest thing that we had in this whole time was make America great again. I mean, that was a

25:49genius branding moment and a genius brand in general. So make America great again because we do have this notion in our hearts of America as the greatest country in the world. And I still think we are. We're certainly the most powerful. But so, but again, of course, presumes that we're not anymore. You know, again, he sort of says, we're not doing so. We're not doing so. We're not doing well. And we need to go back to a time where we felt like we were when we felt like we were honestly able to doing well. And so I think that was sort of the last time people can get on board. But again, man, MAGA, this is what any dissident right person who says they were like super fro MAGA is full of shit. You know, they were too intellectual for MAGA. MAGA is genuinely a

26:52Kuok grade non-intellectual real movement that happens from real ordinary people. Right. And all the intellectuals, after many years of kind of being like, yeah, I don't know, I don't know, jumped in and we're like, okay, I get it, I get it, I get it, right. So what the online right wants to do is now have some thing that they can lead, you know, that they can come up with that they can unify people. But I don't know. I don't know what the preconditions are. That's a good question. I don't know actually like, I've never thought about like what you would need to have. I don't know. Hmm. I guess in your business, you work with companies. So people are paying you and being paid to work for a company. They're paying you to define their company and everybody in the company is being paid to be there. Whereas in this open-ended, you know, spaghetti factory of like

27:52content creators, like nobody's, nobody's in charge. There's no, there's nobody who can convince anybody else what to do. There's people who can actually get shit done, which is what Trump did and then respect those. You need a minute. All right. Yeah. Yeah. I know I'm fine. It was a hotel person. Oh cool. Yeah. Sorry. Keep going. Sorry. Oh, you were saying they, I know what you're saying. You were saying we do companies. So it's a little more unified. This is just a whole ecosystem that exists on some. Yes. Yeah. And then then you have these, these attractors, these influencers, these people who gather a following and then they do, there's no common cause. So even complaining about not having a common

28:57cause is a part of the slot machine. Well, we don't know. So what are we doing? So, um, and then, and then by necessity, you have these breakout people, these people who were rebels who were willing to not be woke is was the first straining mechanism for a lot of these people who were talking about. And then there's people who, uh, again, are oriented back towards the, the system that became woke or people who are oriented in a different way. And then there's, there's a lot of incentives to, to restart these cancellation camp to be woken effect because, I mean, the Babylon be guys are just fascinating characters. Because they got there, they got their traction by making fun of things and now they want to control discourse. And even though they say I don't want to, I don't want to control discourse, but they do. It's crazy. I know. I can't believe it either. I mean, it's okay. Let me just say two responses. One, we actually don't just do companies. We actually do do a lot of one political causes that are coming out.

30:02Right. Uh, we just did one called, uh, united by nature, which is kind of the new conservation initiative. Okay. That was fun. And you know, it was, that's kind of a DC-ish and we did their launch campaign. Um, uh, it's kind of like conservation for young people kind of thing. And, um, so we do do politicking and we do do, um, more than just companies. And, and another thing we do is like, make media companies. And actually we are going to be, I don't want to say too much, but there's a big project coming up. It's going to be very much our own that is going to be seeking to be media, like genuine, genuine media, not content, genuine content, not just pure propaganda, right? Yeah. You were doing that with a state with the last homie spoke. It's like, yeah, we, we once we really, we helped, uh, launch, we basically did launch Michigan, enjoy our Michigan, which was a great, my favorite project we've ever done because it was like culture media, you know? And I'll tell you, the success of Michigan enjoyer, which is, was very, you and we'll see it now,

31:06they're doing great. They, they, they're so Michigan-y, they have great content. Here's what I will say, I think the solution is for us. It is not about attesting what the other side is doing. It's not about attesting, um, all, uh, what if it was the other way? You know, like, could you imagine if we said what the base say about white people, about black people? Yeah. And it's not about going forward in time. It's not about, oh, this is the future of AI, this is the magazine of the future. And it's not about going back. It's not about, oh, let's return, let's return to, um, a time when, you know, those, the black people were not in our community, and we were, you know, like, you know, like, you can tell I'm getting sick of a certain type of right-wing account. But, uh, um, it's about attesting and beautifully articulating now.

32:13Who are we right now? Who, what are we? What is Michigan, right? That's what Michigan enjoyer was. It was, what really is Michigan? What does it like to be a hunter there? What is it like to live in Traverse City? What is the trunk like these days? What's my favorite thing now is the guy that this guy, I have them on my podcast. His name is, um, Jay Murray. And he's like a hockey dad. He's like six, five. He was like a total random Twitter guy, like with 300 followers. And we found him. I was like, Hey, you want to write about Michigan? And he was like, yeah, do I, you know, and he has become like their star journals. And he's like so naturally Michigan, because he's just like big, wonky, like hockey dad type. And he goes and like does like little investigative reports on this video. And it gets like, they get millions of views because he's so like actually Michigan, you know? And he's not sitting there just like writing articles about like, I don't like Richard Mitch Whitmer. It's actually you're seeing who he is, what his experience is like.

33:15And it's like really attractive. It's like, it's cute. It's funny. It's hilarious. It's like, Hey, this is what being a white guy in Michigan is like today, you know, because what is being a white guy like today? I mean, being a white guy sucks so bad that you're like, I'm not saying it sucks about overall. It sucks so bad in so many superficial ways that people want to go back or they want to go forward. They want to go like, let me start my network state with crypto, because I just don't want to be in this world anymore where everybody hates me. Let me go back to Roman times where I can, you know, rape and pillage. Yeah, yeah. What it's like, you know what? Like actually what we need is the story of right now. And like where you are, what is it like to actually view? And what's the beauty of it? Because you know what? It's actually not that bad. Like I live in LA. I'm in the belly of the beast. My life is actually pretty fucking sick in a lot of ways, right? It's ironic. It's weird. It's weird to go on a plane

34:20and have like the black stewardess like hate you and like refuse to like, you know, not only like genuinely fucking hate you. You know what I mean? It's funny to be in this world as a white guy. It's a funny existence. It's a weird because it's like in some ways it is better than in some ways it's way worse. And it's like you get treated in these odd ways. We need a lifestyle publication that is about that, you know? Okay. All right. And that's where that's where I'm trying to head. Sorry. That was talking to your ear. No, I love this. No, I love it. And that's why I do this show so people can talk my ear off lifestyle. What do you mean by that? That's a genre. Could you, yeah, and I think you just defined it by talking about that guy, but like what would be because right nationalist and Lomas, they sort of these publications that kind of they have like this lifestyle thing. They're super edgy and mimetic and stuff like that. But you're thinking of something a little bit more less anonymous would be the first step, right? Yeah. And again, like

35:24not about politicking, not not about describing the political atmosphere and what Heidegger said about this situation. You know, I know how do we intellectualize the problem? And you know, what we really need is we need a patronage network, which will work in this way. And we need some new arts institutions that, you know, if we listen to Ernst Younger, we can do it. It's like, no, we don't need intellectualism. I mean, look, I'm not saying we don't also need intellectualism. The right loves intellectualism. Fine. Let those guys do their fucking intellectual thing. That's not lifestyle though. Lifestyle is the opposite of intellectualism. Lifestyle is GQ. It's playboy. It's barstool sports. It's vice in its day. None of those things were about, you know, debate class. They were about a vibe. They were about a feeling of this is what it's like to be a guy who's in the barstool, whatever. Like I remember reading those barstool early articles.

36:30They were great. And they were, they all were in the same language. It didn't matter which writer was writing it. It didn't matter really what it was saying. It all had this tongue-in-cheek bro parlance, you know, she's a complete smokshop. She's a complete smoker built for sex. Built for sex. You know, like it's gross. I'm not saying it's like great, but I'm saying it was like they talked in a way that really made it clear that this was a culture. This was a thing, a lifestyle. It was, and in reading it and being a part of it, you felt, oh, I'm part of this. I mean, I'm like, so not even really one of those guys. And I loved it because it was just like, you felt you could really like feel it. And it was hilarious. Yeah. Yeah. How does one be intentionally genuine? Intentionally genuine. Intentionally authentic. Does intent ruin authenticity?

37:31Does it not? I don't think they're mutually exclusive. Okay. Yeah, I don't know. Conceptually, it's a good question. Well, because you would, you would always describe yourself negatively as not a propagandist, even though I mean, you're talking cheap propagandist. No, I am a propagandist. I fully am a propagandist. Okay, absolutely. All right. No, I definitely, and you manipulate people. No, I don't know what the word propaganda means. Okay, propagandist, you know, this, it means comes from the word propagate. So it actually was a Catholic church word. So it was just getting the message out. Okay, it was just here's the message of God. We're going to do it in this way, blah, blah, blah. That's really what it means. It became associated with deception. Okay. Really in the era of Walter Litman and Edward Bernays. And they made it this like magical

38:32way to manipulate the masses. And then it continued to have that reputation, of course, through the Soviets, right? So it got this nefarious meaning of, we need to move the sheep with these tactics. And that really does come from Litman. That's a Walter Litman. He's sort of the originator of that old thing. It was he related to Freud. There's one guy like at the head of the ad stuff. Okay, Bernie. Bernie was Freud's cousin. Both those guys are given way too much credit, though. It's, it's very, it's a, I know we're going to talk about chews in a second. So I can say it's a very, it's a, it's a, it's a very gory. It's a very gory brains. People think that it's like Bernays behind the scenes. It's like Bernays was basically the equivalent of like a Malcolm Gladwell. You know, he was just like, yeah, I kind of dabble. That's not exactly correct. It would be like somebody who kind of dabbled in an industry and then wrote a really famous book about the industry. Okay. I'm trying to think of what that would be. But like,

39:37he was sort of a pop, pop psychology. Like these books are not, it's not that he was, he did it a little bit. He did have, he, I will say, you know what he's the father of the father of Bernays, is the 17 doctors say he, are you might, are you meant by authority? Yeah. Yeah. Which is really bad and shady and like not good. So I, I, I will say he's certainly not totally innocent. But for the most part, it's not, he wasn't this like complete wizard. Lippmann was way shadier than Bernays, because Lippmann was basically saying he was elite theory. He was saying the sheep won't ever get it. So we need to basically get the sheep to just do what we say, because we need to have a group of elite men who can figure out how to get the sheep to follow along, because the sheep cannot be trusted to make decisions themselves. Okay. That was sort of his thing, which is true to a certain extent. What's your opinion on that?

40:38I'm a populist. I'm a populist in my soul. You know, what does that mean? A populist in magna is definitely a populist slogan. Were you early? Were, were you magna before it was cool? Yes, very early. Really? I was definitely. How did you know? There was a sense that you had about this. You're like, this is the thing. I had a friend. It's really funny. I had a, I had a black friend who later became super woke. So it's really funny that this happened. And he was always very, very like on to new styles. Like he was like really smart and really like, like very cool, like a very cool guy. Yeah. Not in, not in like a lame way that people are probably thinking, like he was actually really, really cool, like legitimately cool. And he always sort of understood where things were headed. And I remember really early on, I mean, I'm talking about escalator speech, the very beginning, like when the hat first came out, he had one and he wore it around LA. And I was like, damn, that's like weird. Like I was like, I never even see it.

41:45And that kind of got me into and I was like, Oh, okay, I see what's happening here. Like I understood that there was a genuine like populist uprising occurring. And I could, I could, I could see it. And Trump was just so fucking hilarious that it was like, Oh, how can I not both? I mean, this is so entertaining. Yeah. People, yeah, yeah, that humor that he has, if that's what triggers the lips, if, if I may use a term more than anything, because they don't get the humor. Yeah. And he cuts through, he undermines, it reminds them of what, could you articulate your about torture? No, no, sorry. No, why? Why, why does it trigger them so much? I mean, I have family members who just get so mad at him. And I'm like, that's but he's sold areas. It's because they were all told that that is bad behavior, you know, that they got limit. They were, I don't know, they got limit. I think they were just told that men do not behave that way. You know, man, men do not say these things. Gentleman

42:51does not would never dare make these crafts. All men's about women's appearances. What, what, what, what is this? You know, and respectability. And you know what I'll tell you, the more successful I get, the more I recognize the power and the importance of remaining chill and cool and respectful and calm and nice and professional, I completely get it. I get with successful people optimize for those traits. There was a great interview recently with somebody who was preparing for a role in one of those finance movies. I think it was margin call or something. And he said that he hung out with a bunch of these masters of the universe, private equity guys. And the thing that they all shared in common was total calmness. Their voice like never raises above a, you know,

43:51very calm. They might be saying the most horrible thing in the world, but they just completely remain calm and professional and utterly unfazed. And I think that for a very long time, that was the accepted, you know, the accepted way that business was done. It's how politicians spoke. It's how businessmen got business done. And an indicator of somebody who was simply not going to make it was an inability to control one's trash behaviors. And I think it's that, it's that Patrick Bateman meme like dude cut out with the anti-Semitism like that. Cool with the anti-Semitic remarks. Yeah. Yeah. And he and Trump flipped that over. Well, I think things had just gotten so bad. You know, I think the problem is is that the calm speakers, they didn't realize how bad things has gotten. They didn't realize how far things had

44:54gone. And that you need that. You need those crazy motherfuckers to shake things up. You know, you need your Andrew Jackson. You need your Teddy Roosevelt. You know, the people get sick of that boring shit. Oh, after a certain amount of time, especially if things are not going well, right? If things are not going well and you're giving them the same calm stuff, they're going to try to find somebody who speaks to them a little more like how they talk to each other, I think. And I think that that's what Trump really was more. Mm hmm. You said as you get more successful, are you mingling with people who are more chill or are you becoming more like that? I just recognize the necessity of being like that myself. I see, I see in the world that I'm in. I have a lot of weirdos from the internet. And I can see that the biggest indicator, the number one indicator of lack of ability to succeed and move up is inability to control one's tenor and general appropriate level of behavior.

46:01You know, I really do get it now. I think I'd never got that before, really, because I was always a whatever man, like, stop controlling me. But now I do get it. I get that it's like, if somebody can't be trusted to keep it the fuck together, they really can't get very far. And any company because you're just never going to get out of the initial phase because you can't be trusted because it's like, okay, well, we're entrusting you with this very important thing. We can't, we don't even know if you can not yell at us because you were pissed off today. You know what I mean? Like, I get the perspective of HR more than I ever have before. I do understand it. I think it went way too far. And you need to allow people to be a little crazy and you have to allow people to, particularly in creative environments, say whatever they want. You know, so I'm not saying I'm a complete HR person now, but I get it more. Yeah. Do you, is your company big enough to have HR? I guess HR is just the thing. I mean,

47:03it's just the aspect of any business. We will never have HR. We will never, ever have HR. Oh, no, that's like a commitment that I've made. We will never, never, ever, ever have HR. I'm against HR on a fundamental level. I think it's horrible. And the whole reason for the existence of LILA, so HR doesn't exist. So no, we will never have HR. We're not big enough now to have it. We're not far. If we got a little bit bigger, we could feasibly like have an HR person. You know, is this, are you the, you're the head of this company? Or is it like, okay, so what's it been like to, to grow something? Is this your, your main, your first main, like, oh, yeah, business? Yeah, my first, my everything. How, how is it, what's it like going from one stage to the next stage in terms of growth development? And, um, in a core sense, it's exciting and also, you know, it's, it's in a core sense, it's really great. And it feels really good. And, you know,

48:08I'm sure you can relate to this. Those, you know, doing what you're doing is, uh, what you're supposed to be doing, right? And you can feel that when you, when you start doing what you're supposed to be doing, you can feel it. Yeah. You can feel you can like in your day to day being, you just feel differently. Um, so it sort of started with that. But then there's the nagging fear of, you know, okay, what is this? You know, is this going to work? Is this legitimate? Is this just a complete clown thing that I'm doing? Um, and then but once it starts rolling, you start getting wins and you start getting money and you start blah, blah, blah. And, you know, uh, it starts, it feels really, really good. So overall, it feels fantastic. I would, you know, I think everybody should do it, uh, et cetera. That said, um, you know, what do I, how much my time or how much time do I spend doing creative now? Very little. I spend most of my time doing business, business stuff, which is like not that good for the soul, you know, and not that, you know, it's kind of, you're

49:11always like, you're always kind of like, uh, you know, there's not a lot of like, by business stuff, you mean getting accounts and managing accounts, the more, the more Roger Sterling than Don Draper. Yes. Much more Roger Sterling than Don Draper. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And you know, there's a endless paperwork. You know, we got to make sure our contract is this. So we got to, uh, here's the finance thing. And here's a, you know, it's, and, and also controlling people, you know, that's, you're controlling people is what a business person has to do and making sure they're not, hmm, you know, doing ridiculous behaviors and stuff, which I don't like doing that at all. I actually hate that part. But what we'll get a sure. Yeah. What, what resource do you draw upon to manage humanity? Well, so I used to be, my whole thing used to be being like really over the top and saying, like on purpose, you know, I used to be like, like, I'm going to be like, you

50:11know, uh, really over the top, you know what I mean? Like, like, because that was kind of the point, like it was like, come here, you get to be crazy. Everybody gets to be crazy. If you fuck up, I'm going to call you a stupid gay retard. You know, if you, you can call me a evil Jew parasite boss, you know, like, like, we can, you know, we, everybody gets to talk to each other exactly how they, they want. And I think that that is the reason for our success is being able to contain that freedom. Yeah. But I will say I don't flip out. I, I try, I can't flip out anymore. Well, then the way is I used to flip out of people. I used to kind of be this like, uh, you know, I wanted to bring it back to like the era of Hollywood where the agent would throw the phone at your head if you fucked up. You know, I kind of wanted to bring that back, but I've definitely calmed down a lot in the past year because I've just learned. It's, if you treat people that way, even if it's funny, even if it's tongue and cheek and funny, uh, it's, it's creates probably more headaches, uh,

51:13than it's worth because not really gets it, you know, people don't get the tongue and cheek part a lot of times. They think you're really serious or, you know, well, I mean, it's dangerous to not assume that you're serious, especially if you're the boss. So it's like, it's difficult. Authority, yeah, having authority changes. Totally. And you can't be a complete fucking site. Like the, the, the, the more you flip out, this is again, same point. The more you flip out, the more you lose your cool, the less people respect you. You know, that, that's what I've seen. The, the more you can remain positive, calm and cool and blah, blah, the more people guard on our respect for you, the more you lose your shed and have little bitch meltdowns, which I do all the time still, uh, the more people are like, this guy's, this guy's not cool, you know, yes, yes. So, yeah, how's, how's your, so you're Jewish by practice. Yeah, I'm one of those people who's like that. And I like, uh, like one of our, I think, or sort of first

52:16conversation, you, you had such disdain for, I think it was the reformed Jews. I think it was. Yes. Yeah, reformed reformed. How's your practice going? What, you, you orthodont, I guess, you're what, what strain or, yeah, I'm what's called a Habbad Jew. Habbad. And a Habbad Jew is like, um, it's like modern, but not too modern. Um, no, it's, I'm trying to think of an equivalent of Habbad, um, in the Christian. Yeah, but probably, oh god, it's like, there's really no exact analog, um, like Quakers or, yeah, like Quakers. It would be like, is there a part of Christianity where the pervaders of it are much more religious? I mean, I guess this is

53:18probably true of all Christianity, right? But, but particularly a lot more religious than the, their flock, you know, like, is that does that exist? Where it's like, kind of their core function is to stick with the truest form of the religion, but simultaneously that attracts sort of actually the most lapsed Christians in a way, you know, does that make sense? I know. I think I, I think I don't know if there's an analog in the Christianity's that I know, but you're saying that so there's the rabbi and they hold the faith and they hold it very strongly. So, so, but they don't demand that of you. They kind of hold that for the community. Exactly. And I think that that's, that's probably an aspect of Judaism that's always exist or a strain of, uh, judec, um, practice. Well, I mean, so there's, how about is great? How about is is really like a very positive, uh, non, it's a part of Judaism

54:24that is, is, uh, really very attractive to people like me because it's fundamentalist in its own practices, right? But it is the sort of the purpose of it is to bring in, uh, lapsed Jews. So, like, that's not its only purpose, but that's a big function of what it does. And so, um, I liked that a lot because I don't like the, the opposite of that would be reform, which is reform is everything is Judaism. Yeah, we're going to, we're going to open the temple so that it's flattened and see Galatarian. It's the wrong kind of populist. It's watering down the inner chamber. So, I think that's what there's no beliefs. There's nobody that you can be in the reform, you can be an atheist reformed Jew, which to me is like incredibly since you can incredibly terrible because it's

55:25like in how bad what I am is just a very disappointing Jew, right? Like, I like, I like, I'm just a Jew. That sounds like very, a very Jewish state to be. But that's what it should be, right? Like, I should be, I should have a rabbi who's like, here, look, here's the flame of being. This is what you should be doing. You know, this is what I'm doing. This is what you should be doing. I'm disappointed in the fact that you don't keep Shabbat. You're out there posting bacon, which I just did by accident. Um, you know, you're, you're, uh, uh, sting bacon. You're, you know, you're a disgusting degenerate in all these ways. Yeah. And he'll tell me that. He'll say, look, you're no better than a gay person. You don't do the rules either. You know, you know, you know, you're like, you come here and judge gay people like is, well, what do you all say to me? You come here and judge the lesbian couple here. You don't keep fucking Shabbat. You know, you don't, you don't do any of these things that you supposedly, oh, Mr., Mr. righteous over here.

56:26And he's fucking right. I mean, that, that keeps me honest because he's like, hey, you don't get to judge other people. If you don't do the rules, you're no better than that. Well, it's the purpose of interacting with the rules. If you're not going to follow them. I'm, I'm wondering about your spiritual development. Like I want, that's where I'm aiming the conversation to see how your religion is, is developing you. Isn't that true of any religion though that you can't, there's always some rules you follow and some you know, right? Yeah. But the tension that it's, well, you brought up that tension as something essential, but maybe it's not essential. It's something that keeps you honest. But what's on the other side of that? Honestly, why even, why even interact with the rules? Yeah, what are you deriving from that in terms of structure, in terms of meaning, in terms of, yeah, direction or death? Because I think it's just believing in God, right? If you genuinely believe in God, which I do, yeah, these people, these rabbis, they are in the business of

57:27commuting with God in a, in a Jewish, in the most Jewish possible way. Which is what? It's very, very rules and ritualistic. Or how would you describe that? I think I've said this maybe on a prior thing. Judaism is an extremely Jewish religion. It's very Jewish. It's very, and that's kind of like what attracts me to it a little bit. Like the, the, the most Jewish thing you can do is study Torah, right? So reading Torah, studying Torah means reading Torah, reading Kabbalah, reading any of these other books that are rooted in it. And then debating it with your rabbi. That's studying Torah. That's that, and that is the single most holy thing in all Judaism. Not going to temple, not praying, not confession, or not worshiping, you know, anything, the most holy thing is studying Torah. By studying, you mean wrestling? Well, reading it. And then, yes, you're asking, questioning,

58:31we're asking, reading it, and then again, it's not just reading Torah, it's studying Torah. So studying means interrogating how, really thinking about how does this apply to my life now? How can I be a better servant of God? You know, we wouldn't say servant of God really, but how can you be better connected with God day to day? How can you use your life specifically to try to bring darkness into life? Right? How can you use the darkness in your own life in your own life as an opportunity to you know, turn something that's dark for people into something that's lighter for people. You know, like how do you, how do you take that? That's, that's what the mandate as far as I understand it from Hasidic Judaism is. It's, look, you need to take them along is something I've heard kind of banned. What does this light of the world thing? Is that what that is? Yeah, I don't know. I think

59:34it's yeah, but it sounds a little woke. That's what was improve the world. Yeah, this is something that's like misunderstood by people probably, but yeah, but again, it goes back to the question, how do you be intentionally? It's like you, you're not a servant of God, but you are participating in in a work of bettering the world. You use the metaphor of turning darkness to light and bringing lightness to darkness. So, but you're supposed to be in doing that intentionally. Yeah, definitely. You're supposed to be doing it intentionally and you're supposed to be doing it really on your own behalf. No, I mean, that's not true. And on behalf of the world, you know, I mean, there's also 613 myths. You're supposed to be doing those 613 myths. What are these, these are all the things you have to do. Yes, these are all the things you're supposed to do. And Gentiles, we only have to do seven of them or so. Yeah, you have very few. Yeah, only as much as you can handle. You can do about seven. No, yeah, I don't think that's why, but no, look,

1:00:43there's all sorts of shogunistic elements of Judaism. That's what we want to talk about, but which I believe at all. Okay, but so you don't need that. You're not a shogunistic kind of guy, you're populist. You're like, I have a black friend, I have a gay friend, even though I have a hard time with gay people, apparently. You're fine interacting with the goyum. I'm sorry if that's a bad word or not. I don't know. I didn't have a guy get super offended at being called a goyum. The other guy was like, dude, fucking cares. But yeah, no, I'm not a shogunist myself, personally. But there are many, many, many Jews who would say, you know, Jews have a special relationship with God. Jews are the only ones who actually have a real soul. Yeah, they're the only ones who are able to come, come you know, on this level, they're the only ones who can actually interpret the light of God from the heavens and the right way. And there are many many people who would say that. It's, is it really that different than Christianity? It's different in

1:01:45the sense that, I don't think Virginia is any less shogunistic than Christianity overall, pound for pound, right? Because Christians obviously also are extremely privileged in the religion of Christianity, right? I mean, if you're not a Christian, you're not on the, you're not on the squad, not on the benefits. It's just sort of a different range of benefits. And of course, the really big difference is that hard core Jews believe that it's basically passed down through the mom. So it's not a choice. It's not a, I can't choose. So that can say, there's no, there's no consent. I just am whether I want to or not. And how is that for you? That's a very foundational belief that that gives you destiny. Yeah. Oh, man. Heritage, though. There's

1:02:48positives and negatives to it lineage. Well, and I will say in today's world, it is very nice to have that because we live in this world where there's no heritage. So it is nice to have this tribe that's just like constantly saying to me, uh, you're part of us, whether you like it or not. Like that's like a nice message to hear, you know what I mean? Because it's like, oh, I, I have a family that I, it's always there for me, whether or not, no matter how anti-Semitic I get, you know what I mean? Like, they're, they're always there. Yeah, you know, and that's what's great about how bad is they really provide that they're like, hey, man, you can go be an anti-Semitic edgelord poster for 10 years, but you can't escape us because your soul is yours. And like, sorry, and I do think there's some truth to that. Like I do, you know, when I am studying Torah with a rabbi, and when I, like, there's so many elements of it that are already the way I see the world, you know, and when I, when it's boiled down into this way of talking about it, I'm like, wow, that's already exactly how I looked at it. Yeah. Can you describe overall what that would be,

1:03:54that frame of seeing the world? Yes, this kind of mechanisms of rituals, like, what, what is it? Okay, so like, for example, when I go on a bender, right? And I have two days, or three days of feeling horrible shame, right? Of what did I do to my body? I spent all his money. What am I? You know, this is a terrible way of being, right? Where does that shame come from? Does that shame come from society? Does it come from me? Does it? What is that? I believe that shame comes from God, right? That shame comes from you have drawn distance from God into chaos, right? You've allowed your animalistic behaviors to take control of this godly vessel and you've gone far away from God,

1:04:55right? You've taken yourself into the darkness, you've done badly. And I think that that really is a relationship with God. I think those feelings come directly from God. And I think that, you know, it's similar in Christianity. I think in Christianity, there's a similar feeling of like, yes, I do bad things. But at the end of the day, I want to be here to be part of the light of God, right? I want to do, I want to be part of like the, I hate to say the word good because I think that that sells it short. But more of like the greatness and the holiness of God, I don't want to differentiate from that. You know, I want to be part of it with everybody else, you know, I want to be part of whatever's happening here and whatever's going on. Yes, I behave poorly and I act like an animal, but I want to come back and like be part of the righteous battle. You know, I want to, I want to come back and help. I want to be connected. I want to be

1:05:59connected to Oh, no, like Facebook. Yeah. And that's what Facebook is. Let me introduce, let me introduce our new campaign. Yeah, yeah. So it's stay connected. Yeah, anyway, sorry. Yeah, trying to describe religion, not easy, not an easy task. I got a glimpse of you just now in listening to, just listening to your, your, your spiel. Yeah. That like, I just had a sense that you're becoming more you because we've had this third conversation, I believe, maybe fourth, maybe you had me on your channel, I can't remember, but like, I feel like you're get it, you're becoming more of who you are. Interesting. And it was in your tone of voice and and your, your animation and then like some weird like maneuver you made. It's hard to describe, essentially, I think that that that shows me that you're, you're on, you're on, you're turned on

1:07:08in your, you're going. So you're creating content, you're running a business, you know, but I think that the podcasts are really good for you. I think that that you're, you're, you have more of a presence and interacting. And I think it's a part of the juiness of your religion. I think maybe that's part of it. Like, like, it's not just you studying tourists, like you with another human being, your rabbi and the exchange of the vocal tone and your accents and, and your way of being, your particip, you're being connected through that, that wrestling that's studying, that interrogating and stuff like that. And I think that the podcast world, when done correctly or when engaged with correctly is a chance for us to actually develop, not just the ideas and solutions and problems, those are context and pretext to, to this, this inner locking of the monoimono, the, the back and forth. And yeah, I don't know why I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, well, thank you. That's a great compliment. That nice, that's a very good compliment. But yeah, I see that feeding into your, your development

1:08:11and stuff like that. I don't know what I'm, I, you know, I was, my wife had me cut out alcohol for a month and now I'm, no, I'm on this thing where I only drink on the weekends and stuff. And so, when I reached out to you, I was, it was Friday night, you know, and I said, and, and, because I was, I was thinking like, oh, I should have actually got it. I don't know why I was, like, popping up. But I said something to you in the chat about, like, Zionism, because like, sometimes it just overflowed, like, like, this thing is a very, uh, dangerous thing that's going on right now. And part of the, part of the issue that I was interested in interrogating with you is that why, why is Israel such a bad, it's like, like, you think that the Jews would have the best media presence, but it seems like they're making a lot of errors on, like, promoting themselves. Like, if you were put in charge of Israel's, like, ad camping or internet presence, like, what would you do differently? Um, to not, like, it seems like they're riling up all these

1:09:17things. And then also there's like a, a media ecosystem where, where you get a lot of traction if you critique these people. And then they, they go back at you. There's the ADL. There's all this vested interest. It's just like racism. Like, racism in America is never going to go away, because too many people make too much money off of it. Right. So that's what's about to happen with anti-Semitism. Yeah. And because now people just want to talk about it. They want it. They want it. They want to have the discussion. They're ready to talk about it. Yeah. Because they haven't been allowed to talk about it for 80 years, right? It's been off the, off the table. And so now it's like just everybody wants to talk about this, this topic. Um, okay. So as far as the, it goes with the PR, I could not agree more. And I am surrounded by Jews every single day who could not agree more about these disgusting, pathetic tactics, the blue square, the, the destroying anybody who was it, it was stopped Jewish hate, right? Was that the hashtag? And you could read that either way,

1:10:21you know? Yeah. Yeah. No way. How could, I heard this before. What does it stop Jewish hate or stop what, what else would it go? Like no, it's either, either stop the hate against Jews or stop the Jews hating like Jewish hate. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Stop Jewish hate. Here, my genuine feeling about the Jews, the Jews are actually far less ethno-sert narcissistic than people think. They're, they're not, we're not sitting around having, you know, like, let's get the goyum to the, the animals. Yeah, you'll be able to find a few Jews here and there who will say such things. And then, of course, yeah. And the religion, I don't know, look, I won't like, as I said, the religion is shavonistic, but every religion is shavonistic in its own way. It's not more shavonistic than Islam, right? Which says we literally need to conquer the world because everybody is, who's not a,

1:11:24is Islamic person, is an animal, you know, to be sacrificed. Yeah, it's equally, no, it's not that bad. I think Christianity also has its shavonistic elements as well. If you don't accept Jews, this, you're going to hell, basically. I mean, you know, you're not on the thing. The Jewish shavonistic elements do tend to be pretty infuriatingly elitist in the sense where it's like, this is our thing, we're not trying to get you in our thing, but if you're in the club, you're in the club, if you're out, you're out. But it's like, the Jewish misbehavior, which absolutely exists, absolutely needs to be criticized, just like any group, by the way, should be made fun of ruthlessly, in my opinion, every group should, it is not exclusive to Gentiles at all. Just like how black and black crime is

1:12:25far worse than black and white crime, Jew on Jew, you know, Jewish hate is far worse than the people I've been fucked over by far in my life are all Jewish. I never got any special dispensation, you know, I mean, like, of course, there's like a little bit of like, well, we're the same thing, we have the same rough thing, but it's not some code of, it's us against everybody and we're, we never betray each other, it's that do not be further from the truth. And like people are like, oh, but it's the Jews are turning everybody into Chinese, trans, trans, rainbow, all that stuff, that was far bigger in reformed Judaism, long before Christian. So like, I have two cousins, three trans married a complete Christian married a Filipino guy, it's not like there's this

1:13:28special code and we're not betraying the family. Like Jews are the most subversive to Jews, you know, they like, it's just a behavior, it's just a Jews, I will agree that there is a outsider sort of mentality in the soul of Jews. And it's, people are going to say this is anti-Semitic, read the Torah, it's been there since the Torah, right? It's about we get kicked out of a place, we go to a new place, we're, how to sit in for a minute, we're not, we're in fact, you're, who could be more of, this was the solution for me to stop hating myself as a Jew, which was, I am the perfect example of this, all I am is trying to eat away and destroy at the liberal fuck world that I come from. I'm the most subversive Jew of all, so like, in a way, I'm actually more Jewish than my cousins and everybody who are just basic ass reformed people,

1:14:29you know. So look, it exists, there is Jewish behavior, I see it with my family, I see it with friends, I see it with, look, there are Jewish behaviors, yes, there are, some of them are really bad, some of them are terrible, some of them are despicable, right? But some are not those things, the opposite. Some are not that, some are, some can be really beneficial, some can be great, some can be amazing, it's just, it's a people like any other, I really think the issue is just that it's been banned to have this discussion for so long, so that drove people kind of nuts, right? It drove people insane because they weren't able to talk about this thing, right? And it wasn't okay, you weren't allowed to say it. And it's like, well, that's not, you can't enforce that forever, it's, it's one, even if you could enforce it, enforcing it would be completely evil, because then it's like, okay, you're talking about this extremely powerful group that you cannot criticize, that's like the least American thing imaginable,

1:15:34they owe, here's the special group, by the way, they own every building in New York City, but you can't say anything bad about it, they're your landlord, but you better not say anything bad about your landlord, like, no, that is deeply un-American, like you've got to be able to talk to you about whoever you want, that's the number one thing of being American, yeah, so I think that's a little bit of the issue and I think that, you know, Jewish people, Jewish people are not as smart as people think, they're, they're really not that, well, there's verbal intelligence, oh yeah, they're not, they're not anywhere near as aware as people think, you know, they're not, they're not just not thinking about it, they, they don't think it out, they don't think in their head, I am a foreign entity in this community, and my feelings about reducing the power of the incumbent, which would maybe be the wasp white

1:16:35person, perhaps or self, perhaps maybe those aren't just pure, you know, goodness or like, maybe there's a self-interest there, they're just not aware of it, they don't, they very few have the self-awareness to understand, you are actually fighting a battle here against these people in a way, right? They don't, they just don't get, I think they don't see it, you know, for most of them. The, the, I guess, well, both on the right and the left, and then, and then the middle, everybody's, Israel's become like such a hot topic, and the pushing and the investigating, why do we have a special relationship with this other country, and I, you brought up something that was really interesting when you're saying it was just kind of offhanded, but it seems essential, or another line of inquiry, is what is an American? So this is deeply un-American

1:17:36to silence speech and stuff, which is like kind of a surface level, first amendment issue, but that make American great again, the other aspect of the right that needs to happen, besides criticizing Israel or investigating why, why we have such a special relationship, with that is what is a positive identity? What is the positive American identity? And we get, Israel or so-called anti-Semitism or so-called racism are all again negative reactionary in the worst possible, or like in the lowest possible form, reactionary elements of the right, but it's not a positive vision. What is an American? What is a Westerner? Like, because then you bring up the UK and the fascinating thing about discourse in the last couple of years is like the two different tracks between the UK, or specifically England, is England for the English and is Israel for the Israelis, and what do they do with the outsider and cider distinction, and why does one, why is one given in our discourse, one given

1:18:40prevalence and given support, and the other one is being undermined at every possible turn, being the English, the English, England is no longer for the English, in the same way that Israel is for, or Israel is agitating for, Israel for the Israelis, or they say Jews, but there might be a slight distinction that you can get into it. But those two different twin paths of identity, national identity, America has a completely different relationship to it, but we're facilitating both, oddly enough, our global empire is destabilizing one and instituting the other, and it's really fascinating. So those are two outliers on what a national identity is. In America, we have to make up, we have to deal with the multiculturalism that's in our DNA. And so the whatever direction that the right wing racialists discourse is headed, I don't see how America can

1:19:41institute that, but you see it, do you see it in some sort of necessity or some sort of desire for people to have what you were saying when you said, like, I am born of this people, I have a heritage, no matter what. Totally. Absolutely. I threw a lot of thing out there. I don't know where the question was. I will say that, look, all of this is coming to a head now. These questions have always been there. I've always had them. You know, I've always seen the immense hypocrisy of Americanism being fundamentally anti-ethnostate yet Israel is the ultimate ethno state. So like, what the hell are we doing? That said, it is the ethno state in some ways. It's also like the weird thing is that like the groups that make up Israel could be extremely genetically different, even more so than the English, right? I mean, if you look at as Mizrahi Hiju, next to

1:20:44the Sephardic Juneness, Nassimazi Hiju, they're really different, right? So yes, there is a massive hypocrisy in the Americanist viewpoint being no borders, neoliberalism, everybody, you know, let's have no propositional nation. Yeah, everything is propositional. Everything is, you know, this sort of inspiration, sorry, aspirational thrive wherever you can cut it. You know, that's what America really is about. And yeah, supporting a ethno religious state could not be less that, right? And I think that that's a very, very glaring, obvious issue that's, you know, these people like Ben Shapiro, it would be so much nicer if he just fucking admitted it. You know, I think the way that they're doing it now is saying, okay, let's take

1:21:50the money America gives Israel, let's stop giving that money to Israel, right? That's what like the sort of more intelligent Jews are saying now because it's like, oh, it doesn't really need it, Israel's fine on time. I don't actually think that's true, but that's what they said. And so that will be the answer, which is like, well, America just needs to sort of decouple from Israel, so Israel can go and be purely Jewish, yeah, right? Yeah, so I think that's kind of the state of that question. But ultimately, I don't think, I think the values of America are staunchly anti what Israel is now, you know? I mean, maybe in prior times before, it made more sense because it was escaping and we're making sure that democracy, Middle East, helping the little guy to know eradicating this group. But now, at this point, that is, that's just not a viable excuse anymore, you know, right? What's the sentiment among

1:22:55your, the Habad of the, yeah, well, Habad's very interesting because they are, they're all about God, they're all about religion. They don't, they really dislike, so they dislike the intermingling between the political state of Israel and the holy mission of Israel. They hate that. And they hate that the left, basically, the leftist experiment of political Israel, which was leftist from the beginning, ish, kind of used their, kind of was like, oh, hey, the Jews are here. And they're like, wait a second, wait a second, we're here doing worshiping stuff. We're not here to like make a state, you know? So they're a little like, they don't want to get involved in that. They're like, we don't want to get involved in the state of Israel, that's not a thing. We focus on God, we focus on doing the Torah. And there's varying degrees of belief about, oh, in order for the Messiah to come back, we got to all be there. We have to be doing this. Yadda Yadda, that's an endless debate.

1:23:57I can't, I don't even know it well enough to like, you know, not interested in the Messianic aspects. I will say the one thing, this is very sacrilegious, but the, the one thing of any religion that I disagree with is Messianic. I'm sort of anti-Messiah stuff. I mean, to be really perfectly honest, I mean, Jesus, like, pretty much was them. Anyway, I was very, like, if you read the, if you read the book, it's like, you know, it's pretty obvious that they were talking, if there was a prediction to be made at all, it's pretty obvious that they were talking about whatever Jesus became. Yeah, maybe it was all metaphor. This is the world we lived in. What do we do now? 2000 years after the Messiah. What do you do now? We're still here. You know, like, look, this is so far above my pay grade. I don't want to say anything that offends anybody. I don't really hold these beliefs super strong. I don't really know. But I will say, like, no, I don't think

1:24:59they're like, oh, we need to hold the state of Israel in order for them to Messiah to come back. Like, I completely reject that. Yeah. You know, I think it's about living, and I think my rabbi would agree. I think really your mission as a Jew should be to live a righteous life in in communion with the light of God trying to bring more of that light into the world for everybody, that's what I would say. I derived a lot of a sense of of a bright purpose from you, especially when we're talking about the lifestyle aspect of the of what it ever it is to be not left or to be right-wing. I've been listening to the younger guys and they're kind of in a tight spot now. And it kind of, you can see why Fuentes is getting traction. But I don't know to what extent his traction is just because he's a brilliant speaker and talented in that way. And I don't know where the political energy is going. But there's an agitation for an ethno, a reconfiguration of

1:26:04the ethnic quality of the white American of European extraction. And they having just they're smashing, they're doing iconoclastic smashing of different post-war consensus truisms or myths. And one of them is that the Jews are basically the sacred victim of our era. And so they have a special carve out. And they're all ready way past the whole black people are oppressed. So you need to live your life and service to them kind of thing. But there's another step beyond the breaking of off of the chains. There's a need for a certain type of chauvinism or pride in in who they are what they are. And and I think that the the aspect that you're bringing out that you're you're focusing on that lifestyle things like just be who you are

1:27:06and face who you are right now. Don't look back and don't look forward. I mean of course like think in terms of time, but like really understand who you are right now and see it for the good and the bad and and get a fuller picture of that and and that by going through the process of of of connecting to the now you actually become more alive and then more more actually aware of like what you should do or what you actually need rather than in this realm of lights and sounds this Luciferian kind of ideological mimetic landscape which is fun and we all dabble in and that's just a part of our life now information and and ads are just a part of our life now. But that the fullness of being is not going to be unlocked by anything less than a full embodiment and your ethnicity and your religious identity all these tiers of identity are going to participate in it. Yeah, I don't know where I'm trying to try to open

1:28:06up or trying to describe how what you're bringing to the conversation kind of helps me understand what is needed but is that that term lifestyle which is funny. But what is your perspective? What were you saying about Flentus? So like where do you land on what Flentus is doing? Well, he's a comedian and this is the interesting thing about our discourse is that the most it seems like the most relevant influence means like coming from above. It used to mean a star or something like that. It's all kind of related to a celestial like shining light on something or being like infused or influencing. It seems to be the case the last 10 years or so that comedians are the ones who are shaping the conversation in a lot of ways and you know like you have the Rogans and you have the David Smiths and the Constantin Kissins and a lot of these people who have a lot of traction in this world they're just basically really talented at communicating. That's what they're doing and

1:29:10I don't know if Flentus I think he's able to articulate things and he's able to transform a lot of the angst by bringing it to the surface and presenting it but I don't know where that goes and it seems like as a political operator he constantly shoots himself in the foot. He's just he's a kind of a wild card. He hasn't learned the lessons that you were detailing earlier about actually need to be steady for people to trust you if you actually want to move into the realm of power and influence you need to like actually become more steady and calm and I think he's going to go on a plot arc that's because he's so talented I think he'll have a developmental plot arc but part of the stuff of that development is going to be shedding off certain of the edginess edgiest aspects of it that we're always kind of tongue in cheeks too so I don't I don't know I think that the relationship to him should not be one of like being afraid of him or throwing him down but like actually seeing him as somebody who's on a plot arc that can be

1:30:11aimed in one direction or another if you if you go alongside him you'll get a lot more you'll do a lot more to influence him than if you go against him in any given way. Right yeah I agree and I think that a lot of the understanding how how everyone works in this discourse is that if you get alongside them you can actually change the discourse rather than direct confrontation the direct confrontation the debate debate stuff it's an event that doesn't necessarily shape anything but it's you know the Andrew Wilson's the people are really good at that you know just tearing down their opponent or making great arguments those are those are I don't think that they oh yeah that's one style of shaping discourse it's a necessary style but there's also the other style of like just understanding people and then like asking them questions in such a way where they start to interrogate not just the world but themselves

1:31:11and the relationship between them totally no I agree I like one thing I think that he I don't think he's actually as hateful as people give him you know what okay so is he bringing darkness into the light or light into the dark in ways he's bringing darkness into the light in the sense that he's a voice for men who really feel screwed right he's a he is talking in a language publicly and describing things publicly and giving a voice to certainly a type of young man who is facing this world right and and facing the day-to-day frustrations of female-dominated workplaces racist hiring uh Jew landlords yeah yeah black slums yeah black being beaten by blacks in real life

1:32:19and you know flantes it's like to go back and listen to a fucking M&M album from 2000 whatever night he's raping everyone he is killing gay people he is could not be more sexually assaulting gay everybody else yeah literally everybody is a queer who needs to be killed or you know a woman who needs to be beaten and then raped and then killed like okay are we saying M&M is a hateful M&M a hateful person who needs to be put in jail like no right but for whatever reason people can't see that that's what flantes is yeah flantes is just doing that same thing he's just giving a voice to this like male frustration yeah that uh you know everybody has and to try to camp down on that is so or fingerwax you're not gonna kill it you know my mom was in the

1:33:19hully like instant mimetic magic yeah right yeah it's an art form yeah artist it's an art form exactly and it's so funny also that now we've entered this phase where art is so infused by politics everybody wants to be talking about politics all the movies are now about politics every politics is just infected everything and it's funny that like the M&M of our time is of course a political community yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah well Isaac what's what's a project coming up or where where where you put in your content and so far as you're getting any content squeezing any content out in the world well we have a bunch of great work that's going out that if you follow the will the agency twitter account you'll see that there um I still do my podcast try to do it about once a week um really not a ton of effort going into there I just sort of keep it going as much as I can yeah um doing not doing any writing but I will say I can't say

1:34:26anything quite about it yet but a massive thing is coming down the pipe in terms of this lifestyle conversation we're just having so everybody keep an eye out in the near future that's we're on the street cool do you uh do you have any uh extracurricular things that you want to share about but the big city you're in something awesome that you found or that you love about the city the beautiful day yeah I get to see birds out behind you there's a nice water tower reflecting in your TV yeah it's the feels like it's like great shot yeah and if there's big heaters snowmounds or like half the cars like bright sun but half the cars are like buried in snow okay I didn't know that they had such thermally what do you like let me do one yeah well I'll leave you with one thought so I was just in London also and I'm here in New York there's a weird thing going on with like the north and like northern cities where everything seems really stuck in time they seem really like there's not a lot of energy on the streets everybody gives you this kind of weird

1:35:32quizzical look in one than it's more of this depressed look like one than people have to have it down to a perfect time to give you this just look like oh here we go where New York people still have that kind of like narcissistic gleam in their eyes but they kind of give you this look like now you used to be like oh you're in Soho everybody's braiding down to the you know there everybody's kind of drunk they're all perperating everywhere you have these you know hey life in the big city now everybody kind of gives you this side-eyed glance like what's what are we what are we supposed to be doing here again is there always supposed to be doing something and like everything is kind of closed and these northern places are really having a bad moment they feel really stuck Chicago is the world my god Chicago is like destroyed like nothing even works in Chicago where's then you go to Miami and Miami feels like it's like got a heartbeat it's got like a post Austin is exciting my even LA is like doing pretty well so here's my latest thesis

1:36:35is there's this like north south divide kind of happening in vibes huh yeah well you didn't mention Canada Canada what's going on yeah interesting I think awesome to talk to you think a lot for coming on all I'll link to your work down there in the description and God bless you thanks for bringing a little bit of light into this dark cob of mine all right thank you so much man I'll see you soon cheers