Media Coverage of Alleged Miracles – Terry Mattingly, 9/10/26 (2533)

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1:10Well, we have a headline from the New York Post. New Jersey team set on priesthood had virginery vision before tumor shrank. How is a journalist to deal with a claim of a miracle or in this case a vision and a miracle? Welcome back to issues satara joining us talk about media coverage of alleged miracles. Terry Maddingley, senior fellow on communications and culture at St. Constantine College in Houston, Texas. He writes rational sheep a substack news letter on faith family and mass media. He's author of the National Honor religion column for the Andrews McNeill Universal Syndicate. And for two decades, he led the get religion.org website. Terry, welcome back. Glad to be here. So miracle claims are not a rarity. What is the press supposed to do with them? This has been a topic that has intrigued me for decades now. Because at the heart of it is a very important journalism issue.

2:14And that is what happens when you just quote somebody making a truth claim. And the simple fact of the matter is that journalists have decided that certain types of truth claims are valid. And other types of truth claims are not valid. And we can see this all over the place. And the basic rule is that if a scientist says it, or if lots of scientists say it, it's true. For example, this was a factor during COVID coverage. Now that's something far away from discussing miracles, but it's the same basic principle. You had people who were critical of the vaccines and critical of some of the treatment decisions and the cultural decisions. But those people didn't represent the official scientific voices that were endorsed by the US government and most importantly by their editors. And thus one set of statements was taken as true, even though there was conflicting scientific evidence in the debates.

3:23And you had people with very high credentials arguing on both sides. But it was never really treated like a debate until there came a time when it had to be covered, when things just were undeniable. Now that's a story like COVID, which is one of the biggest news stories several decades now. The miracle stories are interesting because if you start off by saying if science says it, it's real, then you get to another attribution issue, which is, well, what if a person says this happened to me? I know it's true because I experienced it. And basically what journalists tend to do is divide that into things that the journalists believe are physically and materially possible, can be quoted and can be attributed as fact.

4:23But things that the journalists either doesn't understand or doesn't believe or it doesn't fit a material worldview automatically goes into the category of belief. And there's, it's just that religion thing. And sometimes it's not even worth looking into where I've tried in lectures to editors and a bunch of other stuff to the years. I've tried to get them to look at it this way. Basically belief, prayer works, miracles are real, I was healed, I had a vision. That's a belief. It's an individual person's belief. Now, the question is whether you want to downgrade it because he's saying something that doesn't fit your worldview. But here's the fact that journalists have to take into consideration. It's a fact that millions of people, and not all of them crazy religious types, scientists even, it's a fact that millions of people believe that prayer is real.

5:30And they believe that miracles are possible. Now you can say, oh, Terry, that's just a statement of belief. Well, no, it's a scientific fact that there's that many people who believe it. And if newsrooms are going to ignore the fact that that many people believe this kind of thing, they're going to have trouble covering a lot of important news stories. My favorite example, Todd, I think I've shared this with you before, but the late Peter Jennings of ABC News, World News Tonight, once told me something we were talking about the struggles that reporters have covering religion. And this was this interview was way back in the 90s when Peter Jennings was making an attempt to have the ABC World News Tonight team cover religion more. And we just read you a short section of a column I wrote about this, anyone who is watch television said Jennings has seen camera crews descend after disasters inevitably a reporter confronts the survivor and ask, how did you get through this terrible experience?

6:34As often as not the survivor replies, I don't know, I just prayed without God's help, I don't think I could have made it. And then Jennings said that there's this long pause after that. And he said to what happens next, he said the reporter rarely says, honestly, what's on his, his or her mind, but in effect, they'll ask a question then that says, now that's very nice, but what really got you through this? And Jennings said that long pause and that awkward silence is the difference between statistically the majority of Americans when it comes to the mysteries of religion and the majority of journalists in America who think they have some sort of professional creed that does not allow them to deal with religious truth claims the way they would within the others, which is by letting people debate them. What did you find in the New York Post piece on this New Jersey team?

7:37Yeah, the headline New Jersey team set on priesthood had vision of Virgin Mary before his tumor miraculously shrank. Now, frankly, this story disappointed me. Now some people say, ah, maddeningly, but they're doing what you think they should do. They're taking this kid serious. I'm all for taking the kids seriously. I'm all for taking seriously the fact that he apparently told grownups in his life, including obviously his parents, but also his priest, whatever about these visions. And I think it would have been good at some point, for example, to ask questions to the religious authorities in this young man's life. I kept waiting for like a very detailed description because what you're going to get in most cases, you're going to have priests say, you know, Catholic priest, Orthodox priest, pastors of all denominations are sometimes going to say something like, I've had a lot of cases like this in my life.

8:44And I don't understand them. I think it's a mystery, but I do believe that God can heal. Well, that would be the kind of the traditional religious point of view. And this story in the New York Post is so intent on telling the boys point of view. And like I said, that's good. That it never gets around to asking what I think are some of the questions that a journalist should ask in this in this case. For example, it talks about an MRI large mass of Dominic began suffering from headaches in December, 2022, and an MRI revealed a large mass on his brain. Jumping down that June, Dominic had a CAT scan and they called me and said, there's no reason to move forward with the surgery. And now it's like nothing. Now here you have Maria, you have the mother.

9:44And it's the family is quoted at that time. And then you have another statement of their point of view. Now when he has an MRI, it appears as just a very small blip. Now as someone who's been through a brain MRI, brain MRIs produce evidence. They produce things that you can see. Now I also know that doctors may say that's a private matter. And we don't have a right to discuss the private affairs, you know, of one of our patients. But there are doctors who will say, well, the family has a copy of the MRI. And if they'll let me, I'll be glad to talk about it. I have seen stories where you interview the doctor in this kind of case. It's a journalism thing. You need an attribution. And if the doctor is willing to talk, the doctor will say something like, I have no explanation for what happened between this MRI and his other MRI.

10:50The simple fact and the scientific fact, the fact of the matter is that things happen in medical cases, cancer cases, leukemia cases, all kinds of cases. Things often happen that we don't understand. But I can't deny that on this MRI, there's a tiny blip, whereas before there was this large physical object of a tumor. Now all of the statements I just made from this imaginary doctor that I wish had somehow been interviewed for this story. I've seen these in press stories and the world doesn't explode into journalism chaos. When you quote someone saying, I don't know what happened. But you also have another option, which I think is fascinating. There are studies of whether miracles happened. There are books of documented cases. And there are authors who write books about this. And they always end up saying, this is what happened before. This is what we have now. And science does not have an explanation for what happened.

12:02So I guess all I'm asking journalists to do is pause for a minute and say, who are the other crucial people in this story that I could interview if I was taking it seriously? Who are the other people that I could interview? What's interesting about this New York Post story? I guess it says a lot about the audience of the New York Post. Must have a large, blue collar Catholic audience in the greater New York City area. And more conservative, probably more religious audience statistically. This story is a weird chance to look at the mirror image of what normally happens. Normally happens. The story doesn't get written at all because the editors are going, well, this is just one kid's belief is what happened. Or you get a totally skeptical story or you get a story that says something and that just leaves out the religious testimony altogether. The New York Post story is the rare flip side of that where they never pause and went anywhere else and asked some practical question. You could go to the Harvard Medical Journal and call them up and say, what do you have in your files about miracle claims? And they've got articles.

13:19They have interesting things that often end up saying there doesn't seem to be a consistent answer. This happens or this happens and nobody knows what the difference is. So that was a long answer to your question. But I guess what I'm really saying is maybe they should try journalism. You know, when they're faced with this sort of a story. Would you expect the New York Times to cover a story like this? I would say it would be infinitely less likely because I don't think their audience expects them to cover it. Now, here's the interesting thing to me. And I didn't have time to dig into this and I think it was about a decade and a half ago, maybe longer when the Harvard study came out. It would be interesting to see if a major medical journal produced an article, scientific findings in which they said, here is what people saying happen. Here's what the evidence shows on X-rays and MRIs.

14:31Here's what happened in the blood work. And we have concluded that in some cases things happen that people call miracles. That looking at it from a scientific point of view, we have to say, yes, this happened and we don't know why. I think what Peter Jennings was saying was it's a major victory for journalism when journalists for just a moment put their worldview aside and at least let people who believe the story talk. And then you ask other forms of sources, other forms of authority, what they think. And we do that all the time in journalism with material that we're not sure about. And okay, here's a wild claim. I think the New York Times would be more likely to cover seriously a miracle claim coming out of let's say Native American faith and religion or some sort of what they would view as mysterious religion that doesn't fit into our political boxes or cultural boxes.

15:46They might treat the claims of people in Central America or South America or Asia somewhere. They might take that more seriously than they would Catholics who actually live and believe things and live in the zip code of the New York Times. I'm not sure why that's true, but that's my observation that I think they're much more likely to take what they would consider an exotic religious tradition. They're more likely to quote it on the record than they are a priest from down the street. So why do you think that is because it's not like New York, it's not like you can't find say maybe even a Roman Catholic card no hanging around someplace in New York who could easily and would answer a phone call from a New York Times reporter and just get kind of this their standard response on miracle claims. Yeah, you're exactly right. I mean New York is a slam dunk location. You probably have Catholic scientists in the greater New York area.

16:56You may even have in New York a cardinal or a bishop or a priest who is also there are priest running around with PhDs and biology and stuff like that. There are priest who are doctors. You might even have someone in New York who has served on a Vatican investigation of claims of miracles based on prayers to marry or the saints. In other words, probably our listeners are familiar that in the Catholic church when when you're investigating whether someone is a saint, you have someone called the devil's advocate and they look into reasons why these claims of a miracle related to the saint. Maybe true or maybe not true and you end up with thick files of information about some of these miracle claims. I don't think that's going to happen with this kid anytime soon, but my point is there are in the New York area, almost certainly people who have been a part of an investigation linked to a fairly important and authoritative source, the Vatican, who may have investigated miracle claims that in the end they said our conclusion is that there is no explanation for this healing.

18:18Other than God's intervention in the case and we believe that's the most sensible answer to this mystery. And I think in New York they would be quite easy to find somebody with that and if that all if all else fails call a couple of American cardinals at the Vatican and ask for their perspective, you know, if they've been close to one of these investigations. Right now we have a American in the papacy and it'd be great if he take the call. I don't think you'll get that, but somewhere I guarantee you there are quotes from popes addressing this equation. Here was the medical reality. The authorities then said a completely different medical reality is visible in MRIs X-rays and blood work tests and we have no explanation for what happened other than the intervention of God.

19:25And that to me is a fascinating equation and I think putting that into a new story and admitting that this is a mystery. You can make that mystery with a big M or a little M. There is a mystery here and we're just going to have to leave the story right there with that mystery. Terry Mattingley is our guest. We're talking about media coverage of alleged miracles. We'll discuss some concerns I have next. Here's an easy way for you to support the worldwide outreach of Lutheran public radio incorporated and create a will for free. Free will offers a secure online estate planning tool that can help you create a will for free in about 20 minutes. Through free will you can help us educate future generations of Lutherans through programming like issues etc.

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22:59At freewill dot com slash issues etc. Terry is a Lutheran my concern here is kind of nuanced I believe that there are miracles happening God is doing them all the time I refer to them as the sacraments. But Christianity is founded on one miraculous claim that is the resurrection of Jesus Christ I'm concerned that when journalists deal with these these other miracle claims that they might trying to get it right they might miss that central miraculous claim. Yeah I think you're right in the sacramental miracles that you're talking about are different than some of the miracle claims we're talking about here in this particular stories talking about a medical miracle they're saying something happened in the world as science would define it. Now I'm well aware Catholic listeners would say mattingly you should say this there have been some interesting things about people examining hosts used in the mass that have strange things have happened to them and they believe they contain blood and then they tested and they find a blood type or something like that.

24:13I'm well aware that that other mystery I think what journalists are going to face more often is exactly the story like this New York Post story or they're going to face it when they're covering the process of a saint we have several Americans right now I believe who are being considered for the Catholic Church's designation of being a recognized saint. And when you cover that story you have to engage with the scientific research into whether or not miracles have happened either that or you just don't cover the story or you simply say and people claim that the her prayers helped in the healing of this person or that person and that's what they claim they claim they claim they claim. But having covered this in the Catholic context and it comes up in the orthodox context as well you do end up with cases where there are physical scientifically recognized materials created by the medical case.

25:25And I think journalists at the very least should ask to see them or ask if the family I mean for example in this case the young boy I predict the family actually owns has in their possession copies of these MRIs I think that's highly likely I don't see any evidence that they were asked if they could show them and they have every right it's their materials they can show them. And this story was so believing so committed to the belief that I actually think it serves as a bad example of journalism in this kind of case in in a way that other journalists would point out it in laugh and said well we're never going to do anything like that. And my point Todd is I don't want journalists to do what the post did in this case this is how many times if you and I talked about these things and we said this story has half of the story it has half of the equation well in this case the story needed some additional voices and maybe there were not people who wanted to talk.

26:39But at this point you could sort of paragraph that said the doctors involved this case declined to be interviewed I think that would show a little bit of seriousness of intent and you're not just believing the family to say gosh is there anyway we can see the MRI. So I remember this was over a decade ago there was a famous book the boy who came back from heaven yeah and at the time it got a ton of coverage the boy claim to have visited heaven after severe car accident. But then later he published an open letter saying that he had lied again attention never in the Bible never visited heaven what's the journalist obligation covering those kind of claims. Well I don't remember a case where someone described him MRI and then tried to take it back I haven't run into those I once spent a year considering writing a book about your death experiences and I've seen all kinds of people write books about your death experiences and there are a lot of books about all of these cases.

27:50And to me this is your this is your definitive classic scientific debate about whether or not there is another world whether or not there is life after death and for Christians we link that directly to our belief in the resurrection. But I don't know how to address that case other than if the person takes it back cover him taking it back I mean cover the story but at the same time note that major medical journals and other people have done research is a bit of your death experiences and have ended up with this kind of we can't explain this. The evidence or the testimonies that have always spooked me the most and I can use the word spook there in kind of a literal way you know maybe you've heard this but they've tried doing things because people describe during the near death experience of an out of body experience and that they can see what's happening not only in the operating room they can see what members of their family were doing in rooms down the hall and they have all these weird descriptions.

28:57Well people that took that seriously began to do things like put signs on the top of shelves in the operating room things that could only be seen from the ceiling and then ask the person you say you saw the operating room the emergency room and whatever during your near death experience can you describe what you saw in the room and they sometimes will have people say yeah and there was a sign on top of a shelf of a room. There that said don't go up here or said you know or had some other message I know enough about the whole debates on near death experiences to know that real live scientists have complete total disagreements with one another on how to explain some of the evidence they're seeing an under death experience. So if you had a case another case came up like the one you described and I'll take your assumption is accurate and you have someone say well I claim that I saw this that the other and now I don't think I did maybe I was just confused et cetera fine treat that seriously take what they said seriously but at the same time I think it would be good to have paragraphs in there to say.

30:16There are thousands of people who have near death experiences stand by their testimony about what happened to never change their minds and sometimes these experiences change their lives and then say the scientific journal so so so has concluded the following so taught I think this comes up with the same sort of situation there are other possible people to interview and if you really want to write the story. Very well I think you should consider covering the scientific debate about these miracle claims or near death experience claims so I that's my point again when in doubt act like it's a journalism story that you're actually interested in and take it seriously. Terry battingly you senior fellow on communications and culture at St. Constantine College in Houston Texas he writes rational sheep a substagned newsletter on faith family mass media. He's author of the National Honor religion column for the Andrews McMill universal syndicate and for two decades he led the get religion dot org website.

31:24Terry thanks glad to be here Friday on issues et cetera we'll discuss social emotional learning with Nathaniel Pullman and we'll continue our series with Pastor Will Whedon on altar pulpit and fond worship. I'm Todd Wilkin thanks for listening. Listen weekday afternoons to Pastor Todd Wilkin and guests on issues et cetera issues et cetera is a listener supported program your financial support is vital for the continuation and expansion of this worldwide outreach our mailing address issues et cetera he'll box 83 Collinsville Illinois 62234 box 83 Collinsville Illinois 62234 you can also donate at our website issues et cetera is a production of LPR Lutheran public radio. This is Dr. John Bambaro inviting you to join me Saturday September 12 for an apologetics workshop at Zion Lutheran Church in

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