Mega Edition: Bill Barr And The Epstein Related Deposition Given To Congress (Part 4-6) (4/4/26)

What's up everyone and welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles.

In this episode, we're going to pick up what we left off with Bill Barr and his deposition

before Congress.

Question.

During his speech shortly thereafter at the fraternal order of police conference on August

12, you said that you learned of serious irregularities that were deeply concerning

at MCC.

Answer, uh-huh.

Question, do you recall what the irregularities were?

Well, one, you know, I was wondering who the person was, who made the decision to take

them off suicide watch.

He had already attempted suicide, and for all the reasons I just stated, it was someone

that had to be watched.

And he was high, very high profile, and he would be under pressure to identify co-conspirators.

So I think that was one, the fact that the checks, the 30 minute checks were not performed,

and I would say that there was nothing apparently unusual about that.

This wasn't like people getting together and saying, okay, tonight, we're not going

to perform the watches.

Apparently, it was pretty consistent that they felt to perform the checks.

And thirdly, they didn't place, and very importantly, that they didn't place another prisoner

in his cell.

So I was referring to those, and, you know, all these, and the camera not being on,

that, you know, that's obviously not necessarily directly relevant to it, but, you know, the

same way the others are, but it's still these screw-ups happening at the same time.

And that was going to be my next question.

You also described it as a perfect storm of screw-ups.

Answer, uh-huh, question.

I think the exact quote that you're referencing, the same things, the checks not being done,

the guards allegedly falsifying the records regarding, answer, uh-huh, question, the checks,

the cameras not working, also the corrections officers also didn't perform the institutional

counts at night.

Answer, right.

And those kinds of things, the perfect storm of screw-ups, is that what you were referring

to?

Answer, right.

And that became clearer and clearer as things went by.

But I started off with a state of mind on this thing like, you know, this is going to take

some explaining.

So, you know, and I can see why people would be suspicious, more than suspicious.

Question, where the IG report came out after your time as Attorney General in June of 2023?

Bar, yes, question, were you getting updates from the IG or just the FBI?

Answer, I think my best recollection is that initially I did get some updates, you know,

sort of orienting me to some of the big facts and factors, but, you know, that sort of dribbled

away.

And certainly after I left the department, I wasn't getting anything.

But I don't, I can't initially, I got some information and that gradually ended.

And so the kind of steady stream, as much as it can be described that way, was more from

internal to the department, FBI, B.O.P. investigations, that you were getting information from?

Bar, yeah, through staff, sometimes through B.O.P. people, through my own staff, who they

would talk to, sometimes directly.

David Bowditch, who was the deputy FBI director, and I had a good relationship, and we talked

frequently.

And even as time went by, during the rest of my tenure when something, some, you know,

clickbait type article appeared about something in the Epstein case.

I would sometimes call him and say, did you guys look at that?

And you know, so I was continuing to pick up information.

Question, you just mentioned David Bowditch, deputy director of the FBI at the time.

It was reported that you instructed him to keep the deputy AG Mr. Rosen informed every

three hours.

Does that sound accurate?

Answer, maybe on the first or second day, question, yeah, it definitely bar cuts are off.

I mean, initially, did I say every three hours?

Question, that was what was reported, but you know, that's what's reported, answer, but

wasn't in my book?

Question, no, answer, okay.

I told him to keep the deputy's office advised, you know, I think probably every day.

I doubt I said every three hours, but if I did say it, that may have been just for the

first few days.

I think we need to know in real time because all these allegations and the internet was

going crazy.

Question, yeah, we just discussed some of the, I'll describe them as kind of security failures

at the time, more, maybe caused by low staffing, low budget, whatever the cause was.

There were a number of failures that occurred between August 9th and August 10th.

We've discussed that, Mr. Epstein attempted suicide on July 23rd, 2019, and you said

you were, you, did you become aware of that after his death or was it prior?

Answer, become aware of what?

Question, his attempted suicide in July, answer, that's a good question.

You know, at some point, I obviously became aware of it.

It's possible it happened before his suicide that he was taken off, you're saying.

Question, or that he, answer, no, I heard about his suicide.

Question, no, that in July, answer, I mean suicide attempt.

Question, you heard about the suicide attempt.

Bar, yes.

Question, prior to his eventual death, answer, yes.

And I knew he was put on, I knew he was put on suicide watch.

Question, I mean, to that, she's cut off by bar, but I don't remember being told that

he was off the watch.

I could have been told before his suicide.

My best recollection is that, after his suicide, I was certainly told about the kerfuffle,

over whether or not he should be taken off watch.

Question, and that kind of information flowing up to the attorney general's office was

primarily because Mr. Epstein was a very high profile inmate, answer, that he attempted

suicide, question, uh-huh, answer, yes.

Answer, well yes.

Question, the attorney general wouldn't be notified every time an inmate in BOP custody

attempt suicide, answer, not for an attempt.

Question, we discussed him being put on suicide watch and kind of what that entailed.

And you just mentioned, where I was going next, that he was removed from watch after

24 hours, which I believe is the minimum amount of time that you're allowed to be on suicide

watch.

Answer, I can't remember exactly how long he was on watch.

I was under the impression it was multiple days, but I don't know, question.

I'll represent this, and I can bring it into the record, but he was on official suicide

watch for 24 hours, and then stayed in that cell for about a week, but was no longer

on constant monitoring.

And then he was moved back to the shoe.

Answer, I just can't remember those details.

Question, okay, bar, I know he was on suicide watch, and then he was released from suicide

watch.

Question, and you mentioned, and I'll get your thought, a kind of kerfuffle around bar

interrupcer, yeah, question, whether or not to be removed from suicide watch.

When you get into more detail about that, answer, well, what happened and people were filling

me in on it on this because it did not cast either a BOP or the department in a good light

that he was that someone like this would attempt suicide and then not be put on suicide

watch.

So I was regaled about that, you know, the arguments and the process, question, okay, and

you recall, do you recall, people advocating for a longer suicide watch for him, answer,

I don't recall the details, no question.

And then answer, you know, I mean, main justice would not have been involved in that because

you know, this was a pretrial, MCC is pretrial.

And you know, generally the way a pretrial suspect is handled is monitored by the US Attorney's

Office because they're the ones that have to report to the judge when the judge is asking

questions about, you know, and so I normally wouldn't have been brought into that.

Speaking of this profile, I wish I had been question.

And then the IG kind of went into detail about going on and taking off suicide watch.

Do you remember any internal investigation after his death, whether about the decision to

take them off suicide watch, answer just the IG's.

And yeah, just the IG's, I don't know about the Bureau, I can't remember.

Question and FBI as a Bureau in that case, answer yes, question, okay, I'm sorry, there's

lots of bureaus.

Answer, there's the only Bureau question.

And again, all of this is the best year recollection.

So if you don't recall the specifics, that's totally okay.

After he was put back in the special housing unit, according to his roommate who was interviewed

by the IG, he was provided with extra betting and sheets, a perk that not very many inmates

got.

Do you recall conversations about that?

Answer, I don't remember that.

And okay, shifting to the security cameras, which we talked about a little bit, but I

want to talk about the circumstances surrounding the cameras a little bit more.

There were eleven or so in or around the shoe entrance and exits hallways.

And we always discuss the one pointing straight down L block.

And then we watch the footage from the one pointing into the common area.

There was a DVR failure that resulted in these cameras working in real time, but not

recording.

Does that do you recall that?

Answer, it was my understanding that a number of the cameras were not recording, although

they were still streaming live.

Question, and the DVR failure was, for a while, had been going on for a while, but was

discovered on August 8th.

Does that sound?

Answer, I didn't know that at the time, but subsequently found out.

Question, and then kind of the process of getting it back on, answer, getting it fixed

bar says.

And getting it fixed took longer than it expected.

Answer, yes.

Question, is that right?

Answer, yes.

I was not aware of this, and that it was going on.

I was aware shortly after the suicide that the cameras had apparently failed.

And there was an effort that went on for, I would say, more than one day, you know, of

the Bureau going into, with technical experts, to try to still capture something, and go over

the disc, and stuff like that.

Question, do you recall the explanation given for the failure of the cameras?

Answer, no.

I can't remember the details of it, but I did monitor the technical people who were

working hard on trying to get it, and then, you know, I saw whatever that they had.

Question, do you recall seeing any evidence of tampering with the DVR system?

Answer, the Bureau, I don't think believed it was tampered.

They felt it was, there was, a non-malicious explanation for it.

Question, and kind of generally, in your discussion with the FBI, and others investigating this,

did the lack of camera recordings have any negative impact on the investigation?

Answer, you know, I mean, it made the investigation harder, obviously, yeah.

Question, I mean, if the camera down L block had been working, it would have been an easier

investigation.

Answer, yeah, now it was working, and that's, question, yes, if it had been a recording.

Answer, it wasn't in, I'm not sure, but in my belief, is that it was not general knowledge

that they were not recording, and people would have thought that they were working.

Mr. O'Calaan, so when you spoke about the camera failures and answering redacted's questions,

the failures were the recording?

Bar, that's, then he's cut off, question, yes, and I apologize.

I'm trying to be very specific in that it was not recording to the DVR.

They were projecting on the security monitors in real time, just not saving to the DVR.

You talk about another one of these series of mistakes, is the lack of a roommate.

That after Suicide Watch, the Psych Department, said that he needed to have a roommate at

all times.

Do you recall conversations in that aftermath about why there wasn't a roommate assigned

to his cell?

Answer, yes, question, what were those conversations?

Answer, I can't remember the details, but I actually spent a lot of time on this issue,

and had people walk me through, you know, why it was being released, what's the process,

why did he have to be released then, who was in charge of that, why did he get released,

and went through all that stuff, and I went through it in detail.

Question, and didn't find your knowledge, didn't find anything malicious in the timing

of this release?

Answer, no.

Question, and you didn't find anything malicious in that the MCC had not assigned Epstein

a new roommate?

Answer, I think that was the judgment of the FBI after a period of time, and then that

ultimately was the judgment of the IG as well.

That's my recollection.

Question, you recall what kind of indications were brought to you that it was just a mistake

to not assign them a roommate?

Answer, I can't remember the details of it, the who struck John, but there were a lot

of people involved who, you know, I told them this, no, he didn't tell me this, you know,

whether this watch officer knew something, or whether they did know something, and it

was sort of, it was intricate.

That's all I can remember.

Question, yeah.

Answer, but at the end of the day, it appeared to be screw-ups.

All right, we're going to wrap up right here, and in the next episode dealing with the

topic, we're going to pick up where we left off.

All of the information that goes with this episode can be found in the description box.

What's up, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles.

In this episode, we're picking up where we left off with the bill bar deposition given

before Congress.

Question, do you recall what kind of indications were brought to you that this was just a

mistake to not assign him a roommate?

Answer by bar, I can't remember the details of it, the who struck John, but there were

a lot of people involved who, you know, I told him this, no, he didn't tell me this,

you know, whether this watch officer knew something, or whether they didn't know something,

and it was sort of, it was intricate.

That's all I can remember.

Question, yeah.

Answer, but at the end of the day, it appeared to be screw-ups.

Question, and I think that's, as you said, that was the IG's conclusion too.

That it was a lot of word of mouth of this guy is getting transferred and confusion regarding

if it was just going to trial or permanent transfer.

Answer, right.

Question, that kind of stuff?

Answer, there were things like that.

And then there is, you know, different correctional officer shifts and things and weather

things that are important are communicated and all that kind of thing.

Question, in the course of the investigation, did you ever go to the MCC?

Answer by bar, no, question, did you ever speak to any of the inmates that were around

Mr. Epstein at the time?

Answer, no, question, did you speak to any of his roommates?

Answer, no, but I believe they were interviewed and he was told the results.

Question, I have nine minutes left, so I'm going to do the unmonetored phone call and

then we'll go off the record for this round.

You had mentioned earlier and said that the IG in its review that Mr. Epstein made an

unmonetored phone call the evening prior to being brought back to his cell before he

was before his death on the 10th.

Do you recall being made aware of that after the fact?

Answer, after his suicide?

Question, aha, bar, yes, question.

And were you briefed regarding what happened with the call, bar, along the way?

My recollection is the bureau spent time trying to figure out who was a recipient and trying

to track that person down.

Question, and is it, answer, and you know, eventually, the only thing I remember, it was someone

in Belorussia, I think, that's my best recollection.

Question, but with a New York City area code, answer, I don't remember the details.

Question, okay, where are, or two, the best of your knowledge, what are the policies

for inmates making phone calls, two non-aturnies?

Answer, you know, I did ask the FBI what the call was about, what did people, what did

they say, and all that kind of thing.

So my understanding was that the calls, like that, had to be monitored, and you couldn't

make an unmonetored call.

Unless there was a reason like my lawyer is going to, I'm talking to my lawyer, et cetera.

Question, and in addition to being monitored by a corrections officer, these calls are

usually recorded.

Answer, yes.

Question, is that correct?

Answer, yes.

Question, was this call recorded?

Answer, no, not that I'm aware of.

The IG did review, and I believe the Southern District of New York eventually did as well,

where individual one, the recipient of the call, or her attorney, gave a proper to the

Southern District of New York.

Are you aware of that?

Answer, I can't remember.

I remember asking, I think it was Bodich, what we had discovered about the call.

Question, the proper describe the call of Mr. Epstein saying like, there is going to

be tough times, I love you, I'm sorry.

That kind of, those kinds of language, do you recall hearing that kind of read out of

the call?

Answer, I don't recall specifics, but I thought the call was consistent with saying

goodbye to someone, but not telling them you're about to commit suicide.

Question, did they ever discover the identity of the recipient?

Answer, I'm not sure, and I couldn't say by the way, at that point we had already made

up his mind as to exactly when he was going to do it, but to me it was consistent with

it.

I'm sorry, what was your question?

Question, did they ever discover the identity of the recipient of the phone call?

Answer, I believe they did.

That's my best recollection.

Question, do you recall who it was?

Answer, no.

Question, I'll ask just about one person, do you recall if it was Glenn Maxwell?

Answer, it was not, it was not her.

Question, it was not.

Answer, no.

Redacted, that's a good spot, we can go off the record.

Then they go to recess, now they're back on the record, Ocalahan, we're on the record,

we're on the record, Ocalahan, which is Barr's lawyer.

So just before we start with your questions, Attorney General Barr just wanted to clarify

two points from the prior testimony.

It makes sense to do it now and obviously won't count against your time if that's okay.

Redacted, yeah, absolutely.

Ocalahan, okay, Barr, so despite your best efforts to orient me to this floor plan,

Ocalahan, he's referring to the schematic exhibit three.

Barr, I was completely turned around on it, and for some reason was discussing it as if

the camera was to the lower left, instead of where it is, was, which was to the upper

right.

And as I said, the main entrance would be the lower right of the camera scene, and so

the door that counsel showed me, at the far end of this, of the common area, is a principal

entrance, the primary entrance to the shoe.

Ocalahan?

So just the witness is indicating the black rectangular box next to the red portion

of Mr. Epstein, cell on the schematic.

Barr, the other thing is that I don't have specific recollection of the exact time I found

out about being taken off a suicide watch.

But to the best of my recollection, it was after his suicide.

Ocalahan, those are the two points, redacted, thank you.

Examination begins again.

I'm going to proceed chronologically, and then doing so, I'm going to cover some

of the topics that my majority colleagues did in a previous round, not to make you repeat

yourself, but just to follow up on some issues and ensure we have a clear record.

And I'll start with a Florida investigation.

That is the investigation into Mr. Epstein by the U.S. Attorney's Office for the Southern

District of Florida.

When did you become aware of that investigation?

Answer with everyone else, according to the papers while it was going on.

Question at the time it was the questions interrupted by Barr, answer when there was a big

outburst about a special deal and all that kind of stuff.

Question so roughly in the 2007 timeframe, answer whenever it became public that there

was a plea agreement, question, and do you recall how you became aware of it?

Answer the newspaper, question, newspapers?

Just a question about the resolution of that investigation.

As I'm sure you're aware, Mr. Epstein entered into a non-prosecution agreement with the

U.S. Attorney's Office in September of 2007.

Among other things, the agreement found the United States, not to quote, institute any criminal

charges against any potential co-conspirators of Epstein, unquote.

Are you familiar with that agreement?

Mr. O'Callahan, so hold on, excuse me.

Attorney General Barr was under Sipina and the scope of the cover letter was about the

investigation by the Department of Justice into Epstein and Maxwell while he was Attorney

General.

You're asking about information that he was not Attorney General, and so I think it's

beyond the scope of what the Sipina call for.

Redacted, I don't think I would agree with that scope, and I think that the proceeding

here today are focused on the DOJ's investigation concerning Mr. Epstein generally.

And the question I'm asking now goes to Mr. Barr's perspective based on his experience

as Attorney General.

O'Callahan, which time?

Redacted which time?

Well, experience as Attorney General both times.

Question just based on your professional perspective, sir.

Have you seen a provision in a plea agreement that found the United States not to pursue

co-conspirators that were unknown at the time the agreement was entered into?

I don't recall having any inside information or information that wasn't publicly available

about those events about the investigation in Florida and its ultimate, the ultimate

plea agreement.

To the vest of my recollection, I knew what I saw on the papers.

I remember at the time having a reaction because there was a hub about it.

I remember looking or thinking about it and delving a little bit into it, but what happened

before I was Attorney General the second time.

During either of your ten years as Attorney General, have you ever seen a comparable

provision that had the same effect again?

Answer.

During the time I was Attorney General, I don't recall seeing a comparable provision.

I think the thing that I didn't like about it was that it took the victim's allocation

rights and I thought that was pretty aggressive and I thought it was vulnerable.

So that's just my own thinking when I saw it.

Question I appreciate that.

Just ask you, Miss Crockett, can I jump in really quickly?

Redacted?

Yeah.

Miss Crockett?

I'm sorry.

I just got to go back to what was just brought up and during your tenure, during either

time you were Attorney General, do you recall there ever being a scenario that you authorized

that was similar, that disallowed the prosecution of co-conspirators in this type of plea deal?

Bar?

You know, I can't specifically remember things that were that I approved, but I'm not sure

that provision sticks out to me as odd.

Crockett?

Okay, but you can't recall ever approving anything like that before, right?

The witness, right?

Crockett, thank you.

Back to redacted.

Question.

There was discussion during the previous round of chain of communication with DOJ and

between main justice and U.S. Attorney's office.

I like to ask you about communication between DOJ and the White House and again, this is

focused on both of your tenures as Attorney General.

How common was it, generally speaking, for you to communicate directly with the president

about investigations that the DOJ was handling?

Bar?

Well, it depends what the investigation was about.

On Epstein, I only remember two conversations I had with the president, question, so if

you do tell us about those two conversations, answer, one was when I heard about the

suicide, I called them up and said, you better brace for this.

And I told them the words to the effect, and I told them about it, and I told them we

were going to be investigating it very vigorously.

And the second one I can't say for sure whether it happened before a suicide during, meaning

around the time of his arrest or whether it happened after his suicide during the continued

developments there.

But the topic of Epstein came up in our conversation.

People were there, and sort of the news.

It was commented on being the news of the day, and the president said something to the effect

that he had broken off with Epstein long ago and that he had actually pushed them out

of Mar-Lago.

Question?

Okay, and just to clarify, those were both conversations with President Trump, answer,

both involved President Trump, yeah.

Those are the only two conversations I can remember where Epstein came up with the president.

And when you say that you told the president, who the news of the suicide would affect,

what did you mean by that?

Answer?

Who would affect?

Did I say that?

Question?

I'm sorry, unless I'm misunderstanding your characterization.

Answer?

I didn't mean to say that.

Question?

Okay.

Answer, I said I told them that he committed suicide.

And that he suspected it was apparently suicide.

And he had the same reaction I did, which was how the hell did that happen?

He's in federal custody.

And the last everyone knew he was being carefully watched precisely for that reason.

And I think I conveyed to him that it was appalling and that we were going to investigate

it vigorously.

And he had the same reaction I did, which is going to certainly generate a lot of conspiracy

theories.

These are not his exact words, but that's what I remember about the conversation being

effectively.

Maybe words to that effect.

Yeah.

Question?

Did President Trump say anything about the conversation?

Answer?

That's all I can recall.

Question?

So just to tie this all together, would I be correct in understanding that prior to Mr.

Epstein's suicide, you did not communicate directly with President Trump in connection

with the Epstein investigation?

Answer?

I said that one conversation I recall could have happened before his suicide around the

time of his arrest, but my best recollection is that happened later.

But those are the only two conversations I can remember having with the president directly

about Epstein.

Mr. O'Callaghan about Epstein generally, not the Epstein investigation?

Bar?

Right.

Yeah.

All right, folks, we're going to wrap up right here and in the next episode, we're going

to pick up where we left off.

All of the information that goes with this episode can be found in the description box.

What's up, everyone?

And welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles.

In this episode, we're going to pick up where we left off with Bill Barr and his deposition

given to Congress.

In addition, shifting back to Florida's investigation, it's my understanding that you

recused yourself during your second tenure as Attorney General from DOJ's review of that

prosecution and plea agreement.

Is that correct?

Answer?

No, I didn't recuse myself.

I think in my confirmation hearing I put that, I didn't want to cross that bridge because

I needed to console people about the issue, and I wasn't sure of the timing of things.

And so, you know, when things occurred and so forth.

So later on when it became an issue, I had it reviewed and got the advice of the ethics

people in the DOJ, and I did not recuse myself.

Question?

Did not recuse yourself?

Answer?

Yes.

Question?

And this is the Florida investigation?

Answer?

No.

It was the, to that he's cut off.

The Southern District of New York investigation.

Answer?

That's the only thing that I was aware of going on when I was there.

And okay, so to clarify, did you have any involvement at all in the DOJ's review of

the Florida investigation that took place during your second tenure?

Answer?

I don't recall playing a role in that review.

In terms of whether it was proper, I didn't play a role in that review.

I think there was discussion when New York was moving forward with the prosecution.

People wanted to be careful that they didn't run a foul of any of the provisions in that

agreement.

Question?

I can be more specific, so it's my understanding that the DOJ's office of professional responsibility

undertook an investigation in 2019.

Into the circumstances surrounding the Florida plea deal?

Answer right.

I wasn't hovering over that or involved in that.

I learned about their conclusions, you know, from when they concluded, when they reached

them.

Question?

After they issued the report, answer I can't remember exactly when, at some point I learned

that OPR was saying that it was improper.

Question?

Have you ever discussed the Epstein investigation generally with Mr. Acosta?

Answer?

I don't recall discussions of the investigation.

I may have around that.

There was a lot of publicity around the fact that he might be pushed out of the administration.

I may have expressed commiseration with them that he was facing that kind of public challenge,

but I didn't discuss the investigation.

Question?

What was your understanding of the reason that he was pushed out of the administration?

Answer?

I don't know.

I think he resigned.

I think he resigned, so my understanding was he resigned, so this didn't continue.

This issue didn't continue to hone the administration.

That was my recollection of what happened.

Question?

And to your understanding did he resign on his own initiative or was he under pressure

from the White House?

Answer?

I don't know.

Wayne is him stepping down to avoid continued problems, but I don't know what happened

behind the scenes.

With respect to the report that OPR issued, you mentioned that you took issue with, as

I understood it, Mr. Acosta's failure, to involve the victims in the process.

Answer?

Well, my recollection, and I haven't looked at this, but my recollection is that part

of it ended up not allowing the victims to have their say.

Which is under federal statute, they have the right to do.

That's my recollection of the issue.

And so I thought that, I think it's wrong not to let the victims have their say.

And here I also thought it was legal vulnerability.

But that was just me as a private citizen saying, well, gee, wow.

Question?

I'll represent to you the report also concluded that Mr. Acosta's decision to resolve

the federal investigation through the MPA, constituted poor judgment, and OPR's words,

among other things by resolving the federal investigation.

Before significant, investigative steps were completed.

Is that consistent with your understanding?

Answer?

Right now?

I don't have a recollection of that.

Question?

Mr. Acosta reportedly stated that he was told that Jeffrey Epstein, quote, belongs to intelligence

and to leave it alone, unquote.

Are you aware of Mr. Acosta saying that?

Answer?

No.

Other than what's been reported in articles over the years?

Again, do you have any knowledge of Mr. Epstein having any ties to any intelligence agency?

Answer?

No.

Question?

Or if Mr. Acosta being told?

Answer?

I don't know about any ties.

I have no reason to believe he was working for the CIA or any intelligence agency, and

I'm dubious about claims like that.

Now many American businessmen who have foreign contacts sometimes will talk to intelligence

agencies to provide information to them.

And the CIA has a unit that goes around and talks to people who are well connected and

ask some questions.

So my supposition when I saw things about him being connected to US intelligence maybe

like other businessmen he talks to them.

But this is not in my opinion based on what I saw.

I didn't think it was an intelligence operation and I never received any information that led

me to believe that.

Question?

Do you have any idea why Mr. Acosta would suggest that it was?

Answer?

I don't know he did.

Whether he did.

Wasn't that something attributed something to him?

Question?

That's his reported statement.

Answer?

Okay.

Question?

I'll shift gears now and move on to the Southern District of New York's investigation.

And for the sake of brevity, if it's okay with you, I'll refer to Southern District

of New York as SDNY.

Answer?

Sure.

That's how I would refer to it.

Question?

I understand you mentioned earlier that you, a determination was made, that you would not

recuse yourself from the SDNY investigation.

And just to make sure my understanding is clear, that was based on input from the Ethics

Office at DOJ.

Answer?

That's my recollection, yeah.

Question?

Okay.

And do you recall the rationale for it concluding that your continued involvement was

consistent with Ethics regulations?

Answer?

Because I didn't really have a connection.

I wasn't involved in the first investigation.

There has been mention in the press about your father's role as a headmaster of Dalton

School in New York.

Was that a consideration in the Ethics Office analysis?

Answer?

Actually, I don't even think I don't know whether I was aware of that at the time.

Obviously not.

It's not pertinent at all.

Question?

You spoke generally during the previous round about the nature and extent of your involvement

in the SDNY investigation.

I'd like to just delve into that in a bit more detail if I could, to begin with, could

you describe the allocation of responsibility between yourself and US Attorney Berman?

Answer?

Well, the US Attorney.

All US attorneys are responsible for pursuing investigations and making prosecutorial judgments.

Question?

Yeah.

Just to clarify, I don't mean generally, operationally within DOJ.

I'm speaking specifically with respect to the Epstein investigation.

Bar?

Well, this was a case that was within his purview.

He had, obviously, approved or was involved in either it's launching or continued under

him.

And so he was responsible for conducting the investigation and making the initial prosecutorial

judgments.

Also, under the department rules, that if he believes there is a basis for investigating

someone who is a prominent person or a senior political official or whatever, he is supposed

to send an urgent report to my attention.

What was the extent during the SDNY's investigation of your interaction with FBI agents?

Answer?

During the investigation of it?

Question?

Yes.

Epstein investigation?

Answer?

I would say agents up in New York, but people at headquarters after the suicide, I told

the headquarters to make sure that they flooded the zone.

That is, they provided the investigative office, which was the New York FBI office, all the

resources necessary, and made sure that the federal investigation was being done.

And boatage oversaw, he's a deputy in Washington.

The actual investigation was carried out by New York agents, most of it, I think, by New York

agents.

I didn't have contact with people up in New York, the agents up in New York.

Question?

And part?

Bar cuts are off.

It's possible that when I was being briefed at some point, they would put someone like

that on the line to explain something to me, but I didn't seek out contacts with people

and the people the FBI made available to me.

Question?

Within the FBI headquarters, apart from Mr. boatage, was there anyone else you communicated

with directly about the investigation?

Answer?

FBI?

Question?

Yes.

Answer?

I'm trying to remember who was at the head of Criminal Division.

I don't recall anyone other than boatage.

I think I may have had conversations with Chris Ray about it, sort of what a mess this

thing was.

Question?

And within the S&Y, did you ever communicate directly with any of the line prosecutors?

Answer?

No, not that I recall.

Question?

And you spoke in the previous round, as I understood, about being briefed by the DAG at the regular

meetings that were held at main justice.

You were briefed by U.S. attorney Berman as well?

Answer?

You know, I think I probably had conversations with Berman, a general conversation, but

I think to the extent that communicated or his people communicated, it would have been

more to the deputy's office.

And then I would have been told about it.

Question?

When did your conversation with Mr. Berman take place?

Bar?

You know, I can't say for sure when that was.

All I know is that I became aware of the investigation.

I became aware that there were people that were looking at the issue of whether or not it

would be permitted under to what extent there are limitations imposed by Florida plea

agreement, things like that.

And I remember, my best recollection, is I had conversations with them after the suicide,

where he strongly assured me and made it clear that this was a priority of the office

and that they would continue pushing ahead.

Question?

And did you ever discuss with Mr. Berman any of the conversations you had with President

Trump?

Answer?

No, not that I can recall.

Question?

And again, in terms of the investigative process, were you involved at all in the decision

surrounding what charges to bring before the grand jury against Mr. Epstein?

Answer?

No.

Question?

Did you review the indictment?

Answer?

I can't recall reviewing the indictment.

I may have been shown it.

Question?

Were you to that?

He cuts her off.

But I don't recall it.

Question?

Were you briefed regarding the specific charges that SDNY intended to bring?

Answer?

I think I was told what they were.

I don't recall how deep the conversation was.

Was there ever any disagreement between you and SDNY over who to charge or what charges

to bring?

Answer?

I don't remember one.

Answer?

You mean the first time around?

The initial indictment against Epstein in July.

Ocalahand?

Maybe a time frame would help.

The witness, July.

Ocalahand 2019?

Are we talking 2019?

Redacted?

Yes.

Witness?

Okay.

Question?

Did anyone else at main justice disagree with the charges that SDNY intended to bring?

Answer?

I don't recall any disagreement.

Question?

In the two conversations you had with President Trump, did the President express any views on

the investigation?

Answer?

Not that I can recall?

No.

Question?

Did he ever give you any instruction with respect to it?

Answer?

No.

Question?

Or express any preference?

Answer?

No.

With respect to the investigation?

Answer?

No.

Question?

Did anyone else at the DOJ discuss the SDNY investigation with anyone in the White House?

Answer?

Not to my knowledge.

Question?

The FBI's investigation?

Did that continue post indictment?

Answer?

The FBI's investigation of the suicide?

Question?

The FBI's investigation into Mr. Epstein's crimes?

Bar, my understanding is that the investigation was going forward because they were at the

stage looking for people who were complicit in the trafficking, either by facilitating

it or by essentially exploiting the victims.

Question?

And do you know how long the FBI's investigation continued?

Answer?

I think it continued throughout my tenure.

All right folks, we're going to wrap up right here and in the next episode dealing with

the topic, we're going to pick up where we left off.

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