Mindless Wrestling Podcast: Elimination Chamber Was VERY Evil!

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My name is Ally Jackson. I'm the host of Finding Mr. Hight,

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So I'm going to call myself out here.

I completely forgot to hit record, and we missed all the interviews.

I do apologize.

We're going to keep it rolling.

Yeah, I just started recording.

It would not be the most recently podcast without some kind of fuck up on my part.

Welcome to the show.

This is this is you today.

I am Jason.

That's Rob.

And we got Ray Cash.

Let's get into this thing.

Hey, world.

Terrible.

We before you out before before you all came on the official podcast.

We said that Ramirez.

You shoot the pump and go.

All right.

So here we are.

This is the mindless wrestling podcast part of the chair shop.

Radio network.

As always, you can find us on the chair shop.com.

Where we remind you and encourage you to always use your head.

You got a big show lined up tonight.

As you've heard, all the voices around the room.

It's myself, DJ Rob and Jason joined by Ray Cash.

He's our unofficial fourth chair.

We drag him out of retirement a couple of years times a year.

He's on here tonight.

He's got a little something he wants to do with us.

This is our elimination chamber post wrap up show.

We're going to talk elimination chamber.

All the fallout from that as well as some.

Some rhetoric that came out with one of the debuts over the weekend.

Big name for those of you that care Dan Howeson was revealed.

The way it was revealed.

Everybody kind of felt like it was shit on.

We're going to talk about that because that's going much differently than people

with the ledger to believe.

But first, we're going to talk elimination chamber.

But before I do that, I want to welcome Ray to the show.

I know officially now that we're recording Ray.

Thank you for joining us.

Then low me.

Well, I'll take Umbridge with one thing.

There's a little one about you boy.

I'll take I'll take a little umbridge with one thing you say.

First and foremost, I come on here more than once a year, dog.

Am I that bad?

Okay, you're going to fuck around and I'm going to be laughing about you.

I was no ever weekend.

It's probably feels like, you know what Ray, we love having you on here.

It's not often enough so it feels like it's once a year.

No, this is so I've been blessed and lucky enough

to be doing this for a while since 2010.

So I've been on a few different shows and done a few things.

This is by far and I'm not saying it because I'm in your house.

Buffett, one of my favorite things to do with some of my favorite people.

And even my sperm donor,

I rock with y'all heavy man.

And it's always a pleasure and honor to come on hang out with you boys.

It's always a pleasure.

Have you ever time you reach out say, hey, you guys,

recording the answer is yes,

yes, unless I have something very specific planned where I can't fit another guest in.

For sure, for sure.

The answer is always yes.

So I'm going to produce a chair too, my boy, I get it.

Yep, I got it sometimes you got to look at it and go, I'd love to,

but I've already got a two-hour show planned and I don't want to turn it into a three-hour

gig. I don't want to do that to people.

Well, and Ray is not someone that we can just

fit in there with a five-minute cameo.

He needs his time to spread his wings and do his thing.

Yep.

So WWE and Lunation Chamber came at us from this weekend.

And I'm going to kick this whole discussion off by saying this was

WWE needed this.

I think of the last few events and quite frankly since they switched over to ESPN.

The events have been hit or miss as far as the totality of whether or not people like them.

I will say for me, personally, what I've seen from ESPN has been fine, too decent.

This is the first thing I've seen on ESPN side of things,

where I could say I thoroughly enjoyed the whole thing from top to bottom.

We'll start with our guest, Ray.

What did you think?

Just the general, the show and general.

It was a home run.

I thought it was a home run.

I didn't care for a lot of Becky and AJ, the match.

But I'm not going to do the watches wrestling for the in-ring part anyway.

What mattered mattered?

What was important was important.

Jessica Carr is getting most shine as a rip that she ever got as a wrestler.

Shout out to Jessica.

And they told a fantastic story with the right person winning for the purposes of the story.

That was the lowest spot in the car.

I mean, it was a home run.

It was everything they needed.

And of course, Chicago is, I think Chicago stolen the mecca of wrestling for New York.

I think now we have to acknowledge that.

It's still in the mecca of marks.

Let's be real.

Okay, so that may be fair, Jason.

But to that point, to that point, I want you to really, really go back.

Well, you hate New York.

You're from Boston.

We should go back to New York.

I expect what New York has does for the industry.

I do too.

But I want us to really go back and look at it analytically from the last 10 times

they've been in Chicago.

The last time they've been, last 10 times they've been to the New York area.

I'll just clue on Godland because those shows over there don't really seem to hit like they do

when they're on the island.

We know I'm actually the big island.

But I really want you to look at them and look at crowd interaction,

whos over whos doing this, even if pumpkin on the cart.

Just in terms of what the crowd gives the audience,

Chicago is killing New York, bro.

That's nothing to do with that.

And actually, it kind of does.

The reaction to Dan Housen.

Okay, you're just a bunch of fucking idiots.

Okay, yeah, we'll get out there and we'll do the, you know, 12.

Oh, we're going to kick out of 12 fucking finishers and we're going to do that.

That's what you want.

But sports entertainment,

sea impulse, sea impulse, best pals.

Oh, no, we can't have a little Broadway show in the middle of our

wrestle, our underpants wrestling.

That's way too much.

What's up, Jason?

Jason, you're missing something here.

What's that?

They were lit down by the World Wrestling Federation.

You don't want to talk about Broadway.

It's Jericho.

Guys, put a pin in that.

Oh, you ruined my punch line.

I'm sorry.

I'm sorry.

Well, I'm dying.

Guys, it's been a great show.

We got to have a six-year-old tonight.

And I thought you could be listening to the Mindless Wrestling podcast.

We'll be back next week,

where I promise we'll go seven minutes.

Here's everybody.

Here we go.

Cheers.

Now, we will get into that because I've got some thoughts on the whole

damn housing thing.

What happened there?

And what happened in the next 24 and 48 hours after that?

But let's kick it over.

Rob, your thoughts on the show in general?

Was it a hit for you?

Was it a miss for you?

You're in the middle?

I'm leaning towards hit.

Because I actually like me to me.

I really enjoy the Royal Rumble.

So I did too.

So for me, I would say that the rumble was there first like success.

And this one don't stop it.

Yes, so for me, I mean, I like the Royal Rumble better

than the show.

OK.

There was a very big, important things that happened.

And the things that they needed to glue,

they did, they may have to say the things that were really

riding on a certain decision being made,

I felt like they made the right decisions.

And that can make your break a show.

Because if you make, if you get one of the big decisions wrong

on a show, it can kill the whole vibe.

So I thought when it came to all the kind of show making

or breaking decisions, I think they had all of those.

And that's the fact that Becky squeaks out that show

can't change us.

That, I mean, that wouldn't happen, I mean.

Well, I know, but then to say like they hit all the marks,

they did everything right.

Like the finish of the ending of the main event was.

Yeah, that was awesome.

Well, we'll get them because the ending of the main event,

the main event, that wasn't say, if you get it right,

the show's great, if you don't get it right, the show's success.

Yeah, I hate to bring them up on this show,

but Vince McMahon was fond of saying they only ever

remember the finish.

Yeah, that was absolutely facts.

That was a show making a breaking decision on the main event.

And they made it.

So that was because had they had they gone wrong with that,

then regardless of how good the rest of the show would,

most people would be cramming on it.

If they didn't go wrong, wait in the main event.

So, and some of that, so that was,

in a sense, let me go to the rumble, they picked the right winners,

and that matters.

And so I was like, let me try to give it a great, I don't know, maybe like,

B-fluss, I mean, I wasn't totally dialed in, like for the entire show, you know,

but they did everything they need to be done well, they did well.

So I'll give it a plus.

Okay, Jason, how about you? Was it a hit?

I'll give it an A-minus, and then I'll dimaret the whole crowd

and everything for the reaction to Dan Housen,

so we'll get to a B-minus.

Oh, but one more thing I wanted to get, because it's very important,

because the show only had four matches,

and they got us in and out in three hours.

Yeah.

Way too many times.

Well, they were right at 10 o'clock, wasn't it?

Yeah, way too many times on even these short cards.

Way too many times.

They're still clocking in four hours.

Yeah.

Four hours for four or five matches is too damn long.

It's a slog.

Even if the matches are good.

Yeah, and even if the matches are elimination chamber, rumbles, whatever, whatever,

like that we know they're going to be long,

so we, like, mentally plan for it.

Even even if that's the case, dude, you can't go much beyond that.

I think they found a good flow, though.

They get triple age believing in this shorter card ideology for, like, the main shows.

I think they found a good flow with time.

Well, they still go too close to four hours for some of these for me.

For the number of matches.

They got it right.

They got in and out in three hours this time.

Yeah, and I agree with that.

I thought it really, I literally looked down when the last match was finishing up.

I'm like, they're going to get his home.

And they're going to get this old man in bed by 10, after 10.

And I love that, you know?

So again, yeah, the flow on this one was much better.

The matches were excellent.

I love what every now and then because a lot of the complaint from non-fans,

and I think we just lost Jason again,

is that WWE doesn't care enough about wrestling.

And I love it when I hand full of times a year, probably more.

I'm exaggerating a bit.

WWE reminds us that wrestling is important.

And I got to be honest with you.

CM Punk and Finn Balor had one hell of a wrestling match.

Like, it was great.

It was great storytelling.

The work in the ring was good.

The guys had awesome chemistry.

I thought this was an excellent match.

Rob, what'd you think?

Yeah, and I guess this was one.

I guess this was one of the ones I wouldn't totally doubt in the entire time.

But because I guess, we knew it was winning.

And, but, yeah, I mean, they had excellent wrestling match, they could go on.

And, you know, from Finn Balor's been doing like the wacky judgment day stuff so long,

you know, but sometimes, you know, he needs to just remind everybody

that he's really good at this wrestling thing.

You know, I remember who I used to be.

Well, I mean, he's one of the better pro wrestlers on the roster.

Like, yeah.

So just giving him a chance to showcase and actually get back into that bad ass character.

And they're just just giving him a little bit of runway.

And I like that they didn't overbook it.

You know, it was just, there were a few hints that he was like,

looking to the back like, should I ask for help, should I not?

Or whatever.

And, but other than that, it wasn't, you know,

running loser or anything like that.

C in punk and Finn Balor told the story.

Yeah.

And, and I think so you mentioned that you said that every now and then,

they remind you that wrestling matters to them.

I didn't do it once to show once.

I was being exaggerating.

For sure.

Now, I will say to your point, there's a difference between, oh, that was a really good match.

And oh, this is one of the best matches I've probably seen all year.

And punk and punk and Finn, in terms of just entering product,

was we're going to be looking back at that at the end of the year as one of the

top candidates for match of the year.

Also, for the things that I like as a wrestling fan,

in terms of like the ambiance, the presentation, all that stuff.

Coming out to Adam's series, Adam, Adam Parsons series.

Oh my God.

The Mick Wish, kid.

He gets everything, man.

My wife gets hired back.

You're this gets that we get to do that.

We get to, oh, you get to leave your dream and do the thing with the old announcer and whatnot.

And listen, serious is on my fucking playlist.

That's a more guy.

As soon as that music hit, I knew what the fuck was going on.

And I just rolled my eyes, almost rolled out of the back of my head.

But the song wasn't the thing that got me.

The song made me say, oh, well, maybe the mind I was like,

they can't do stuff to the announcer.

That's the, you know, from the outside all.

From the right, did it?

It that got me hyped.

In a way, like, that's the type of stuff.

So the same way a lot of fans would get hype over a flippy dues, 65,000,

that's the type of stuff that gives me.

That maybe if I'm a chair, bro, like that, have me hype.

And to that point, well, it's sure.

And to that point, if I may touch on this point as we move forward to the rest of the show,

they made a concerted effort to make everybody who came out,

rest of us and the wrestling matches look like stars,

have star entrances and take their fucking time.

Think about the, think about the chamber match.

Particularly the men's.

Trixe's entrance was like four minutes.

Javon, the ref had to tell Javon, dog, get on the turnbuckle.

We got stuff to do.

Like, but they were taking their time, bro.

And I like that because as you just said, the old man always says,

the last thing you see is what you remember.

Not just the last thing, the first thing you see.

Yeah, I didn't know you liked the wrestler from the second that came out the curtain.

I jokingly referred to the name test the table.

I jokingly referred to the men's elimination chamber match as the orange or a farming chamber match.

It was boy boy, you want to talk?

You know how they, you know, back in the, I guess, attitude, not post-attitudes,

or rules, aggression error.

I'm everybody.

How everybody's trunks was just different shots of them and everything.

That match has about seven shots for every wrestler.

Yep.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And what we're talking about right now is going to play very heavily into the second.

Happened this show, raised out a little something lined up.

And now this is part of what he wants to talk about.

We're going to talk about the different booking styles and do some comparisons here at the end of the,

at the end of the show.

We're going to continue on.

Rob, was there anything else on the elimination chamber here that stuck out with you?

No, I mean, I love the finish of the main event.

That closing sequence was just outstanding.

And good.

Yeah, look, Drew coming in there.

Crossroads.

Oh, well, what was it?

It's just rapid fire.

Finisher's, Randy hit the, the, that was one of the cleanest fucking

Archeos perfectly timed by both guys that Randy hit on Cody to end that match.

And also that was perfect.

And it fit Randy's character because he encoded the ganged up ones who were first.

But then the soon he's Randy had an opening.

He took advantage of the situation.

Oh, the window was cracked.

And he smashed that thing wide open.

And so they'll call him the Viper for no reason.

Right.

So that, that, the finish with his character as well being well executed.

And

the eight plus whoever came up with the, whoever came up with the finish.

And so far, the thing's after it like Randy is just in his own Randy Orton Viper way.

He's being like, yeah, all shocks.

Sorry, Cody.

Like it's not.

We can, we can keep that on the back burner.

We don't have to suddenly turn them into enemies week two.

And we're giving a lot of love rightfully so to the finish.

But Rob, you said that that fit Randy's character, speaking of characters,

the whole entire way the match is structured was genius because Logan getting joked

by all of everybody and then being the guy to eliminate everybody was beautiful storytelling

because that's the probably that's probably three dudes on the entire main roster.

Men wise who everybody hates and Logan is the dude that everybody hates.

So everybody jumped together to jump, oh boy.

And then he took advantage of every small little crack, small little mistakes,

small little bits only to get outsmarted by a dude who can't even use his left arm.

Just genius booking throughout that entire chamber.

My brilliant.

It really was.

The women's chamber batch was really good.

I enjoyed it.

I thought the women, the women have really shown out in these chamber batches.

And I'm so glad they've got the opportunity to do so.

Raquel, big standout in this one.

And as very noticeable, the crowd was started.

Finally, finally, the crowd is starting to feel it with Raquel.

And the Chicago crowd was, we disappointed when she finally got eliminated.

Like I said, bunch of marks, they proved her elimination.

But they also booed Dan Housen as we're going to get to later.

So they can't be trusted in Chicago.

They can't be trusted.

What's your chair at CM Park?

Like what are we doing?

What?

Jason is like, if you're new to the mind with wrestling podcast,

Jason is like the he's like the fan club, he's the president of the anti-CM

punk fan club.

Like that's where we're at here.

Yeah, but good.

But he did.

Jason still holding a grudge.

No, the only part of this match, and I get it because I get what they were doing,

was the double, the double stack elimination.

Um, wasn't crazy about that.

But again, I get what they were doing with Raquel.

So you just, uh, to me, it felt like they, that felt, we're short on time.

Yes, of course, it felt like I, I know she, she did look good and she did

hit a half a spot.

She didn't know baby deer legs, no nothing.

I will give her full credit.

I'm just not a believer.

She has no, or she has no charisma.

She has no nothing.

I'm sorry.

So this whole thing is just insane to me.

Obviously, I'm trying this hard.

I didn't go with all of that.

But speaking more pertinently to the double stack,

they like to give moments to people in these chambers that people will remember.

If you remember, they even showed it in the, in the run up to it.

Santa Bayesler had a, had a elimination chamber where she eliminated all five people by submission.

And let me tell you honestly, this again, for my, for my money, that was the best women's chamber ever.

And that makes one of those two.

And that was just like, okay.

Okay, so to that point, and this, and I acknowledge you might not like it, because you don't see it

with her at all.

Raquel is the powerhouse of the division.

She's supposed to be able to do that stuff.

So like, that's the character.

So yeah, it is what it is.

I guess just for me, for me, it's, it felt, it didn't feel like they were giving her a moment.

It felt like they were rushing for time.

That's also how I felt.

Well, if they were rushing for time, then they showed it in give a fuck, because the rest of that show took forever.

Thanks to everything else out.

Well, yeah, I mean, you know, I mean, for maybe the women successfully, we're like, okay,

you need to shave five minutes.

And then the rest of the show will be fine.

And they did.

They shaved five minutes.

So the rest of the show was fine.

Yeah, that's a great idea.

Let's, let's talk for a minute about the winner of this particular match.

And because it has huge implications for WrestleMania.

And let me be very clear here.

I do not want to talk about what happened on Twitter.

Yeah, women.

I don't even want to acknowledge that.

I want to talk about the winner and the general feeling of the people who were like,

oh, rear-lipply again.

This is WrestleMania.

There are original WrestleMania plans.

We're going to be Bianca versus Jade.

I fully believe this in my heart.

That was the plan.

Bianca has been injured for 11 straight months.

Since last WrestleMania, we thought she was going to be the surprise

that the real rumble she was not.

She had to undergo surgery to fix this finger.

They had to pin it.

They had to go somewhere.

I have always said about pro wrestling.

It is best delivered when you deliver it like a Kaiju fight.

There ain't no bigger Kaiju fight in the women's division than Jade Cargill.

Safe for Bianca Belair.

Then rear-lipply.

There is no bigger match at WrestleMania.

I'm not talking about backlash or.

Yeah.

Great balls of fire or whatever the case may be.

I'm talking about WrestleMania.

The biggest women's Kaiju fight.

Outside of Bianca and Jade is Jade and rear-lipply.

I have absolutely no problem with the winner on us.

When you think of when you think of WrestleMania matches,

your first thought should go to damn that poster.

Like, let's isn't Vegas, right?

Walking down the stairs.

I can see a 40-foot poster of Jade and rear.

I can see it.

I will say I am all here for the match.

I don't like that rear-lipply, one on the table though.

And my only qualm is not that I don't think rear-lipply and Jade should be the match

or rear should have been the person to fight.

It's none of that.

My only qualm is we have spoken at Najim on this show in all around about how little

and almost jokingly WWE seems to have taken the women's tag team division.

And for the first time in the history of that,

this division, since they brought them, they made the belts.

They have spent six to nine months really making that division something legitimate.

They have actually legitimate teams.

They have people that are teaming together, not just because,

oh well, you guys have to do no, you guys have to do no.

No, they're actually teams with stories and reasons to be together.

Having regular matches, having extreme spots on the card,

they've taken main top level superstars and put them in this division

to build it up.

And rear and EO have been excellent as champions.

And I am disappointed that they didn't get the opportunity to showcase

those titles as a team at WrestleMania.

Because now, EO got to do something separate because she's not getting enough of the card.

And that rear is over here.

We have to hot shot the belts to the irresistible forces.

And whatever we're going to do now, we can do, which is still be cool.

But can you imagine the gravitas it would have had if rear-ripply at EO Sky,

who both have been in two in the last two women's championship matches in WrestleMania

past two years, both of them, right?

And now they're not in that position anymore.

I'm a love re-enjade.

I'm going to love it.

But I'm a little bummed personally because I just thought that could have been a fantastic

kind of showcase for that division.

And that could have been a great way to show the girls in that locker room.

We give it down about this division because we put the two biggest stars we have left

and gave you this.

Just like they had to say we give a damn about the IC title.

So we know what we're going to do.

Probably give the goal, the championship.

We're good.

So I'm a little bummed personally.

Okay, let me ask you this.

I sound logic, sound logic.

I got up snowing.

What's your cook in there?

You break ash to the booker.

Who do you book other than Rhea to go against?

Jayne in a marquee match.

Yeah, 40 foot poster.

Yeah, most Vegas.

Who does Ray Cash put on that poster?

I don't I don't I hate it.

I wouldn't have enjoyed it.

But Tiffany their story there.

She beat Tiffany at SummerSlam.

Well, I mean Tiffany beat her at SummerSlam.

She beat Tiffany in the rematch and injure Tiffany.

Tiffany was gone the entire time out of a match with Jade.

There is there's a story that can be told there.

Now, I'm a little overtively in that role.

But that story was there and ready to be made.

Oh, go.

Okay, Jay continue.

I'm just sunk at three.

Okay.

Let's go.

Fuck it back, baby.

Because I got something.

I got something.

I don't think we're saying here because.

All right, because.

Look, if they took Rhea and Eo and the Bellas and Charlotte and Alexa

and I and Lash,

you put them in like a TLC or something.

Oscar and Kyrie and Bailey and Lyra.

It's six of them.

Well, you're going to be out for six teams.

And now, and now you got silver.

K.O.L.A.

They're all here.

Absolutely.

They already rooted in the match.

No, you can't.

No, you can't.

It will be actually.

It's just what I want you to finish.

Let me say at one point.

It was never going to be TLC.

Because Nicky can't be on a TLC match.

They were never going to do it.

Well, it was a half of those women in that match.

It got.

Neat issue.

You're a concussion.

Yeah, they were never going to give those girls that match.

So go ahead.

Go ahead.

I'm sorry, but I'm just going to say,

you know, loading up that match with all of those names.

That could have meant tonight one.

Yeah.

But but now I mean, so and you know,

once we're rewinding chamber,

that basically that killed him.

Chance the women.

I disagree.

They could have done the TLC match,

but we would have been able to circle who in pen,

who's actually going to go through a table.

I mean,

you can't even.

And you can't you can't you can't probably even legally have

Nikki Climb or fucking.

Okay.

Lender dog.

Look.

Like she's got people that can climb.

But I'm not just.

What's it?

What's it?

What's it?

He's going to know the Bremam.

That all means going to get behind her.

Oh, yeah.

Good listen.

Thank you.

Let's not finish.

Okay, because okay.

Nicky's got neck issues.

Alexa's got concussion issues.

No, I get you.

Can Ria has been concussed and got bum shoulder in a bunch of.

Broken every bone in this area like three times.

Yeah, yeah, okay.

I'm saying it's like literally we could go down the match card and be like,

all right, well, she's not going through the table.

She's not going through the table.

She's not going through the table.

She's not going through the table.

Poor Lash would have been taking every bump in the match.

Exactly.

And we're out.

She just got here guys.

Let's let's speed up.

Still burn her out yet.

She's got an old career coming.

We're past the rookie hazing state.

Okay, but I'm with Ria.

Okay, so because Ria's started.

She's in kind of the second phase of being a top person now.

She's not climbing anymore.

And she's past, you know, that first stage when you're on top.

And you're like, when everything is everybody,

you know, she's past that, you know, too.

But she's she is still the she's like the,

she's the default title challenger now though.

Guys, she's been on WrestleMania in the past seven years.

Stop cutting off.

I'm sorry.

Go ahead.

Are you going to get there?

Well, I would have to stop cutting off.

I'm trying to make it for a found point here, sir.

Okay, anyway.

I mean, so, and so she's she's the default title challenger now.

And she's and she's been on the main roster for five years.

So she's not she's a young person.

But she's veteran now.

So she's kind of at that point.

So it was you know, in terms of like maybe some people being tired of her or something.

She is kind of at that point.

I think where you do have to manage how you do stuff with him.

Because the crowd's not going to turn on her.

No, they're not.

But she is kind of at that point where if you keep having the same stuff over and over,

they will start to lose interest.

So we're kind of teetering on it.

I mean, this is kind of borderline right now.

But of all the women in that match,

she was the obvious one to pick the win the match.

I do.

I mean, from a logic from a booking logic standpoint, Tiffany made more sense for all the reasons.

Where he said, but the only problem with that is then.

Okay, we got it.

If we know for sure, it's going to be four women's matches.

The two world title matches.

That can aid you.

You're going to have an honest title match and it'll be the tag team thing.

If you put Tiffany, if Tiffany won the chamber and re and EO had gone into the tag team match,

then basically out of those four matches,

the two world title matches would lose interest.

You know, that's not the best look at him.

Do you think you don't think Stephanie and live have interest?

Out of the four matches, then number four, dude.

Come on.

Oh, that's weird to have, but okay.

Please, okay, you got the bellows in the tag team title match.

If nothing else, that's more people going more into that and moving Stephanie.

More people going to be more into whatever's re is doing.

And then you got back in eight.

Yes.

I mean, so if you if you had Tiffany and Jade and the world title match and Stephanie and live,

you're two world title matches and overshadowed my tag team title,

imagine the icing title match.

And you don't want that.

All right.

Well, I got the numbers.

NERG was going to point out that she this will be eighth WrestleMania.

And every single WrestleMania she's been in.

She's competed for a title.

So I don't know why anyone's surprised.

Sorry, Mara.

Rob, I was just trying to put numbers behind your statement.

So,

isn't my minute.

I remember she wrestled at, um, at a COVID-19 for the

before the Knessy title.

I'm going to call the mania for the NXT title.

It counts.

How can I forget that one?

You know, I don't know.

Yeah, yeah, you can.

I don't.

Yeah, I wonder who won that one.

The person who should have won that's who.

Yeah, yeah, like anyway,

one last thing that happened at elimination chamber that had everybody talking.

For the last several weeks on Raw and SmackDown,

they have been teasing a crate.

There's been a crate delivered to Adam Pierce.

There's been a crate sent from Adam Pierce over to Nick Wallace.

Now the two of them are arguing about the crate.

What's in the crate?

What's in the box?

What's in the box?

So we finally get the reveal.

And here's where shit gets funny.

Because we were on the show last week and we all pretty much unanimously

agreed who we thought it was going to be.

And that was egged on a little bit by

48 to 72 hours prior to people were already dropping.

It was a real possibility that it was going to be Dan Housen.

So if you made it to

the night of the moment of still believing that it might be Chris Jericho,

Shane O'Mack, Vince McMahon, I saw Vince McMahon as a possibility.

And you were still disappointed.

That's on you.

If you thought they were going to put a serious wrestler with a series

thing in a gimmick box, you deserve to be disappointed.

Like this is this was not going to be anybody other than Dan Housen.

I thought the reveal was excellent.

I thought it was really well done.

I was extremely sports entertained.

I got him up to go to the bathroom and I didn't realize they were doing it.

Because I was like, okay, the match just ended.

I got a PM wanted about them.

I come back out as they're literally lowering the box.

And I see these girls come out.

I'm like, oh, it's Dan Housen.

This is great.

And it came out that you did a little thing

and the crowd in the moment.

And let's be fair here because I want to talk about that.

The crowd in the moment once they realized

that it wasn't Chris Jericho, Shane O'Mack, Vince McMahon,

they shit on it.

They were audibly booing.

Well, that is a real thing that happened.

Chicago audibly booed Dan Housen coming to the ring,

which honestly is the most Dan Housen thing that could have happened.

He loved it.

Yes.

But the character was fantastic.

But one out of that is more what I want to talk about

because people, the dirt sheets, the people who get paid

folding money, livable incomes to write about this shit started writing about how it was a failure.

It was a failure right out of the gate.

They were comparing it to the shock master.

They were comparing it to the gobbledy cooker of all things.

And I'm sorry, but if that was what you,

if that was your takeaway from all this,

you did not watch those two events happen in real time.

I'm sorry, because this wasn't even close to that.

They opened the box that was maybe like, I don't know,

like 10 feet tall and five by five.

And Dan Housen and eight backup dancers came

sauntering out of this apparently infinite box.

So they started the show with a fucking magic trick.

They went to a little Broadway number all the way to the ring.

And then he did a magic trick again and disappeared.

If you don't love that, you don't understand professional wrestling.

That's what I'm saying about the entrance, man.

Like if you boot that, I don't know what you want

from professional wrestling.

If you're a super smart crowd and you understand

and look at Chicago, one of the smartest crowds out there,

I'm told, and you understand who Dan Housen is.

You're not surprised.

You're not like, oh, who's this bozo?

You don't know or enough of you know who Dan Housen is.

And you boot it anyway.

Like, you're a bunch of losers.

So may I please so I'm on both sides of this argument.

And I want to talk about the part that affect directly

goes what Jason said.

I acknowledge that when we have this conversation sometimes,

sometimes we have fan glasses on and don't see

outside of those glasses.

Now, I'm not disrespecting you or this regarding your feelings

at all.

But you said one thing that I think is markedly not true.

Not everybody knows who Dan Housen is.

We have to know that the Chicago crowd,

by and large, is wrestling smart or what we can gather.

And yeah, I just don't.

That's why that.

And I agree with you with the city,

but we have to look at the specifics of the of the situation.

And I don't want to get into the rig.

I'm roll the wall.

He sold out the unit center on the rumor that CM Punk might show up.

Got you.

That is a decisively different crowd than we're.

I understand anywhere else, but that's a different company.

That means nothing to me.

Think work with me and the parameters I'm talking about here.

WWE right now and TKO is in a situation where their tickets

are higher than they've ever been.

Not everybody is able to go to these shows

like they were for five years ago or able to say go to a show

that AW has where they're giving away tickets for free

if you go to the college at the schools

or that's on the campus.

So number one, this are not all necessarily the most

die harder fans.

They're WWE also too.

And as a fan base, especially at the shows

and all of us have gone to these shows regularly,

have a lot of casuals and families.

There are not a lot of people

who are in the casual wrestling space

who know who Dan Housen is.

Now Chicago helps a lot more because of the city

and the wrestling ethos of the city,

but by and large, I would argue maybe 50% to 60%

of that fan base knew who the guy was.

A lot of people were looking like,

who the fuck is this dude wearing clothing?

Now that's not a diss

because I think Dan Housen as a character

is massively, massively valuable.

But I think to a lot of people who don't know who we is,

who may have been expecting someone

or something else different, by the way,

if you expect a jerk or you dumbass.

But anything else other than that,

I am understanding of the disappointment in the moment

because we don't know, like casuals, who the dude is.

That's all I understand.

I don't understand the extra step of booing though.

You know what I do with you?

You like that happens on the show.

Who was you don't like?

They booed Triple H after that.

No, no, no, no.

They booed Triple H after John Cena tapped out.

You booed, whatever you do.

That's how they tell people.

Let me defend Jason Stance here.

I don't think I'm talking about that.

We're just sad on the fucking hands

and there would have been crickets in there, dude.

They're booing because they're a bunch of babies.

Yeah, no, here.

If they didn't understand it,

if they didn't, if they didn't like,

what the fuck was that?

Like they just been looking at each other and confusing

and we've seen it a thousand times in wrestling shows.

There'd be silence.

Yeah.

What did you say?

What the fuck was that?

They were booing.

Like what are we doing here?

Okay, let me defend Jason here.

Let me get a word in here.

They weren't shooting on Dan Housen.

They were shooting on the fact that this didn't meet

their expectations.

That's what they were doing.

They weren't booing again,

but the rhetoric that spun out of that

for all these people who like I said,

get paid folding money to analyze this shit.

Yes.

They booed Dan Housen.

They didn't boo Dan Housen.

Okay, they never did.

You know, what they were booing was the situation

of their own expectations.

And in the moment of the show,

in which it happened, right after this match,

this was right between CM Punk match and the main event.

Yes.

The only guy I could think of is Jericho.

And like really you were booing

because it wasn't Chris Jericho.

I stand by my statement.

You're a bunch of fucking idiots.

It could have been anything or anyone.

It could have been the WWE 2x26 advertisement.

Could have been anything.

But the disappointment in that moment,

Ford, I guarantee, I guarantee you this, I guarantee you this.

I guarantee you this.

I guarantee you this.

For sure.

If it was somebody who you know the crowd knew,

they would have liked it.

They would have accepted it more than someone

that they didn't know.

They didn't know who the guy was.

Yeah, I just don't get the extra step of booing.

I did that that when you don't recognize one

and then you burst the silence.

Once you get over the idea,

and you won't, I get that, I respect that.

But if you can come to the conclusion and understanding

that they didn't boo the guy,

they booed the situation,

then I think you accepted a lot easier.

But they didn't say, fuck dead house in.

No, they didn't like the situation.

So they booed the situation.

They do this all the time.

The best part of this whole discussion, though,

is that literally 48 hours later,

everybody's pivoting on the Dan House and think.

Like everybody that shit on it and oh, Taskmaster,

you know, oh, Shockmaster this,

oh, gobbledygooker that is suddenly pivoting.

There's one, the dude's awesome.

And there's a, I won't mention him by name

because I don't want to give him any mileage.

But again, somebody who makes a living in doing this stuff

on the app formally known as Twitter said,

I don't understand Dan House

and I don't see how that character fits into WWE.

Bro, you get paid to write about this shit.

I think maybe you ought to have a fundamental understanding

of what you're watching.

If you think Dan House does not fit on the same show

that brings us psychoclown and Mr. iguana,

like he doesn't fit there, please stop.

And it's a three hour children variety show

where they, where they solve their problems

with violence most of the time.

And tell me, tell me the clown spooky dude doesn't fit that,

who loves show tunes and video games.

Like tell me that doesn't fit to a tee.

And to you and to, and to your point DJ,

I think it was accepted Monday so positively

because of the context when she was put in.

Now, to you use, you use Mr. iguana.

If Mr. iguana may have invented, let's say backlash,

fighting Roman reigns for the world championship,

we would shit on that.

Cause he don't have to be nowhere near that.

Dan House and his interest or debut

was in a main event spot.

He was sandwiched in between two big matches.

I get it.

So yeah, so like, so I, I, you're,

you make, you make a great point.

Like I think most people can understand

that he gets value to the show.

It's just his value to the show.

All the same point, same ways.

I'll give you the same, even more salient argument.

Everyone on the show loves Ron Killings.

We all love this motherfucker.

Ron Killings has no business as the art truth character

has exists in any type of major championship match.

Now, if there's a joke, like the scene,

the thing fit because of the joke of 10 years,

I'm saying it's my favorite superstar, right?

But if tomorrow, WrestleMania,

it's out of nowhere, our truth versus this new,

versus Penta for the world, for the as the title,

people are like, what?

That's, that's not and I think, yeah, that you're right.

And that makes sense.

But oh, no, I think Dan House and his end up being a hit.

I think he's going to be a huge benefit to this company.

I'm looking forward to seeing what they do with him.

I thought Monday night was a whole lot of fun.

And the dude's already a top merch seller.

So we've already beat the other allegations.

Why don't we do this?

Why don't we regroup this show?

Take a little commercial break.

Wait, Rob has something to say while he was waving at his kids.

He's like, look at off camera and waving.

So like, maybe one of his kids came in a room,

but he's at least dropped through a flag on the play.

Rob, go ahead.

The first of all, it was just fun to see Bray.

Tell somebody else they were wearing.

Well, look, honestly, you know, sometimes you book TV

for the paper view.

Sometimes you book the paper view for TV.

They were booking the paper view for TV with that segment.

They needed to get him out there so people could just see him

and be interested in whatever the hell this is.

And then that way it's set up when he was out there

on Monday night.

And so you take the ale, some people boot, okay, fine, whatever.

We just needed to get him out there.

And then to set up Monday night and have it.

So to me, it would need to do.

Yeah.

I said, the Chicago crowd, Ray brings up a very valid argument.

And I understand Jason's side, like you have one,

just in general, watching a, again, as Jason says,

children's variety show where people solve their problems

and their underpants, how you could look at that.

So with violence, how you could look at the totality of that

and not look at that and go, that is one of the most WWE

things I've ever seen.

You know, the spooky dukey creature feature nerd coming

to the ring with dancing girls to a big smoke show is the most

WWE thing you can do for sports entertainment.

And we often forget that that's what WWE does.

I thought it was incredible.

I think it's going to be fun moving forward.

I know enough about Dan Allison to know about the character.

I don't know enough to know how much of a good wrestler he is.

I've seen mixed opinions that he's actually better in the ring

than some people give him credit for.

A lot of the people say he's average at best.

I don't care.

I think the character's gonna be tons of fun.

He gets by any elevates.

He gets by if necessary.

And he elevates himself certainly with who,

to the level of whoever's in the ring.

They can bring him up.

So, because I've seen Dan has a wrestle a few times

and it's been wildly different experiences.

Okay.

All right.

And that's good enough for me for my Monday, Tuesday and Friday

night wrestling shows and occasionally on a premium

live event on Saturday.

Those are perfectly acceptable things for me in the way

that I consume professional wrestling.

So why don't we agree a little bit?

We're going to go to a quick commercial break.

When we come back, Ray Cash has a little something

a little exercise he wants to do with us.

I'm going to let him explain that on the backside of all this.

Before we go to break, I want to invite you to go

over to pro wrestling tees.com forward slash the chair shot.

From there, you can look at browse,

peruse if you will, all the t-shirt options available

from your favorite chair shot radio network podcasts.

Including this one, the Mindless Wrestling Podcast.

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Go check them out.

Pick one up for starting artists on these shows.

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Your bodies will thank you if you pick one up

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That is pro wrestling tees.com forward slash the chair shot.

We're going to go to a quick break.

And we are back.

Thank you for listening to this messy, messy episode

of the Mindless Wrestling Podcast.

Our guest Ray Cash here came to me with an idea

a few days ago.

He said, DJ, when you guys recording, I said,

Ray, this day I said, you are welcome on.

He's got a little idea he wants to do.

I'm going to turn the floor over to Ray.

Let him explain the parameters of this next segment.

We're going to give Ray the floor is yours.

Thank you, my beautiful bearded brother.

So I always like to give credit

where I get these ideas from because I'm an idea guy.

And I'm very much things come to me

from people talking or other ideas.

And they just come to me.

So shout out to the Mass Man Show, David Schumacher

and Kazim from the weekday.

One of my favorite shows that I actually listened to.

And they were talking about who necessarily

is the best booker in professional wrestling right now.

Now, of course, you can go deeper than the main three,

but the main three really right now are Triple H,

Tony Khan, Shawn Michaels.

You can talk about ghetto.

You can talk about, I think, Delirious and Tom

and Jim are booking TNA and all the other people.

Shout out to Uncle Takeer, by the way,

we just joking in the break, who's doing a great job

with Triple H.

But stick with the victory.

And so if you're not familiar, I created a show, a series

that DJ was so kind to do with me this past year,

called The Total Package, which is the kind of blueprint

to find out who is the best wrestler in the world based off

a series of criteria that makes them the quote unquote

total package.

I thought, well, we can kind of do that with bookers.

So I came up with three criteria that I think every booker

needs and needs that they do and should be good at,

like parameters.

So the first and, of course, is creative direction.

And by creative direction, I mean,

essentially building the wrestler's character,

creating their character, their motivations,

how they're used and involved in stories and storylines

in general, then, of course, as matchmaking,

which is the physical act of making matches,

making the cards, picking feuds, picking steps, setting up

an actual card, the parameters of what the show is built on.

And then it's presentation.

So that's not just how a wrestler looks,

but how a wrestler's presented to the audience,

to the roster, to the show as a whole.

So those are the three main components

that a wrestling booker does.

And so when we're talking about the three guys

that I mentioned, I think they all have their pros

and they all have their cons.

Some have some terrible low cons.

Some have the very, very high highs.

And so I'll start off by bringing,

let's pardon the pun, but talking about Tony Khan,

I think Tony Khan is a superb, absolute excellent matchmaker.

He makes matches, people want to see.

He makes matches that in the ring, these two guys,

he's like Joe Silver in the UFC.

These do's, these do's gonna give me a show.

I think he also, although being fantastic at matchmaking

is a subpar creative guy.

I say subpar because he has moments where he hits home runs.

There's a lot of hangman, a lot of hangman pages career.

There's been a lot of lows, but hangman said more home runs

than was anybody in their main men's division.

The Mariah May, probably Blake Monroe now,

Tony Storm feud.

A lot of that was a home run.

He has hit very, very high, but his highs,

he's like almost like Adam Dunn.

It's home run or strikeout.

So I say, he hear him on Andy Struck out in the same swing.

Well, he's put on that amazing main event

and didn't, excuse me, I'm sorry.

He put on that main event worthy match with Blake

and he got the story there.

He, they delivered the whole nine yards.

That goes on last, Tony.

John Carlos, there you go.

Now, in terms of presentation, the shits.

I don't, I think the way he presents wrestlers to the audience,

I think the way he presents wrestlers

to the other wrestlers on the show,

I think the way he presents the show as a whole is awful.

I think his fascination with bringing the new toy in

and they're forgetting he got a new toy,

hi, Iconics, or is God awful?

What's up, Shampa?

Terrible.

So that's the package, Tony Conn is as a booker to me.

Does that make sense to you guys?

You kind of get to just what I'm trying to get.

Exactly where you're going.

Yeah, okay.

Because he delivers when, because you know what?

Credit to him, man, because sometimes, why wait?

I've got this guy on my roster.

I've got that guy on my roster.

They're going to wrestle on Wednesday.

Yeah, that's what it is, that's what it is.

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Go ahead, you say some things, right?

No, I was just saying I see where you're going with this.

So are you just going to go around the room

and just do it like that or how we're going to do this?

Well, sure, do you guys have any thoughts

on my opinion on Tony Khan?

Do you disagree?

What is, what is your opinions on Tony's thoughts?

Can I have some to go ahead, Rob?

Okay.

We can go with the other guys next.

I mean, I agree about the matchmaking thing

because you don't think

with one of my big knocks on Triple H

just as some edges, he just waits too long to do.

Mm-hmm.

And with Tony, now sometimes Tony does it too early

or he does it on the wrong show.

There's some matches this should be on the picture.

You will be with on TV or some matches should be on

Wednesday or on Saturday.

But at least you know you're going to get the match

with Tony.

You know that Kenny Omega is going to wrestle his word.

Well, Kenny Omega versus Roman Reigns on Wednesday night,

like all of a sudden Roman Reigns shows up.

Okay.

And then just the next week you see Roman Reigns

versus Kenny Omega.

On Dynamite, that match actually happens.

Yeah, but that match gets interrupted after two minutes.

Oh, but if it happens at all, if it ever happens.

Exactly.

Well, I'm saying with a little bit more.

Tony orders it, man.

So, thank you.

So with Tony, you know you're going to get the match

with, with, I can say, maybe it may have come to early

on the wrong show or whatever,

but you know at least it's going to happen.

So to, yes, so as far as making matches,

I give him an A for that.

Now, what I will knock him is that he doesn't seem to realize

that it's kind of we say wins and losses don't matter,

but certain wins and losses do matter.

And when you, when you bring people in, somebody's new,

and then you have them lose four matches and throw.

And but your logic is that, well, it's a five star match

so we're going to be okay with it.

No, okay.

You can lose one match and there's no problem.

But what we always say here, if I see you all the time,

what are you?

Oh, no, sir.

Exactly.

So, and there are too many times where he just,

just hangs too many L's on people too close together,

you know, with, with the idea that, well,

it's a five star match so it'll be fine.

And then, you know, and then people just lose faith in them.

And so, I mean, that's my biggest knock on him.

And then the other one is the other thing is,

the women's divisions is going well right now,

but he's still got way too many.

I mean, he signed too many women

who should not be wrestling on television.

And yeah, at the very beginning, that was the case.

And there's still some women on,

he puts on TV, he should not be wrestling on television.

So, that presentation hack is not?

Well, man, they didn't really stink it.

That's not a new presentation, okay?

I mean, well, what I mean by presentation is,

okay, that's, that's, that's kind of everything.

Oh, I wanted to show.

Yes, exactly.

Yeah, you're right.

That's, okay, that's true.

Yeah, so yes.

Well, the only thing I'll say about that,

I own interjection real quick.

I've seen some women whose presentation coming out

looks pretty good and then the bell rings.

Yeah.

And then you get the rest of the story.

And the rest of the story stinks.

Yeah.

I'm sorry.

I'm sorry.

I was just upset with the name names.

We don't know what we're talking about.

Yikes.

See, yeah, she has really dope hat, though.

It's no entry, it's just incredible.

But, but not, yeah, but you know, it's just,

so yeah, I mean, the biggest,

I mean, the best thing about him is that,

if, you know, if King Kong and Godzilla get signed,

they're going to be right.

You know, you know, you're going to see it.

Not going to be put off for years and years and years

or until the right time and may not happen at all, you know,

like like we still haven't had some of those matches

between the real and beyond, and five years, you know.

So, you know, you don't have,

you don't have to worry about anything like that with Tony.

Slowly, those were strong.

Like, so the presentation is, you know,

that's something that's as weak as quality.

That's why I use the Joe Silva comp for him.

Joe Silver is the matchmaker at UFC.

He does nothing else, but makes, what makes fights.

But every fight is, he makes, that's his, that's his only job.

And he makes great fights.

He has nothing to do with booking.

He has nothing to do with presentation.

He has nothing to do with marketing.

He just makes fights.

He makes fights.

Tony makes great fights.

The other stuff he is not very good at in my opinion.

Yeah, I mean, Tony does my favorite booking thing.

Like, honestly, it's going to be this guy versus that guy.

For no, for, listen, it's the nine, 15 match.

There's no story.

They're just going to wrestle each other.

Why they work here and it's a fighting, it's a fighting,

you know, apparently a fighting federation.

Oh, the cruise way, now are you talking about like David

and you sit up yourself with cruise way.

Yeah, exactly.

And, and Tony will just do a random match.

It doesn't have a story that goes anywhere or whatever.

It's a, you, you get work here and you fight for a living.

Okay.

Dave, do you mind tripping on how, the way I looked at it?

No, because you're, you're way of looking at it.

It's very similar to where I'm at that.

Tony books to his credit and his detriment.

Books this like a fan, like a somebody book

and people joke about him.

It's his e-fed.

He's playing WWE universe with all these people.

And the way you said, that's a good thing for those of us

who just want to see two good wrestlers get in the ring

and wrestle.

Like you put Tomaso Ciampa and Roderick Strong

in a ring together.

Deez is going to tune in and watch that shit.

Yeah.

Because that tickles my work rate and nerd fancy.

But at the same time, as we talk about presentation,

why should I give a shit?

Because neither one of them there feels like stars.

Very few people there feel like genuine stars.

Great wrestlers.

Great wrestlers, great in-ring talent.

The presentation of everyone there leaves me going.

And I shouldn't say everyone, because there are people

there I genuinely like.

You know, there are people that I have gravitated to.

I love Will and I think some of that is just,

she has, and I hope everybody's watching SmackDown right now.

Please turn on SmackDown if you don't.

Just, you can leave it on mute.

It's my don't have access to it.

Yeah, don't spoil it for me, because I'm watching that show.

But yeah, so the wrestling part of it, Tony's a fan of that.

That's what he wants to see.

And this is my, when Ray first pitched this to me in chat,

I mentioned to him, I said, we're making an argument

of bookers versus promoters.

Yeah.

Tony books like a fan, Tony ain't a promoter.

Yeah.

And I think that's the biggest difference here.

And so yeah, I'm right online with where you are.

The presentation stinks.

The matchmaking is probably, he's probably top of the pile

for matchmaking.

Yeah.

But the rest of it is where I think he falls behind.

So then let's flip it and let's talk about the other big dog

on the hill.

We'll do Sean Lass, because I think that's not

the most variance of the conversation.

But triple H.

So I posit that triple H is great at presentation.

If you look at, if you follow social media on Twitter,

on the Twitter machine, where it's on the bubble,

if you look at the Twitter machine, they just release a blur

today showing triple H, making tricks

interest at the elimination chamber.

And they even jumped about how Bobbi Roo's pissed off

with them because they stole his gimmick

with the little flipping little thing, right?

But there's so many behind-the-scenes videos

where you see him literally telling the wrestler,

this is how I want you to do it.

And it comes out, and it's iconic, flacking interests.

So I think he's excellent at things like presentation,

making people look great, putting people in situations

where they look good.

You talk, we talked about the downhill in situation

and how that was really controversial on Saturday.

But on Monday, everybody loved it.

Why?

That's presentation, right?

I think he is good at creative direction.

So I had to give it like a grade,

like a seven and a half, or like a B to B plus.

He has a lot of positives.

He doesn't have any negatives,

but I don't think he's consistent enough

with like high level consistency

to be great or excellent at creative direction.

And I think he's a dead C mid at matchmaking.

I don't think he's terrible

because he does make a lot of high in marquee as matches.

And Rob, you'll enjoy this, and Jason, you will,

but you'll appreciate this.

I think he has the level of patience

that most bookers don't have,

because most bookers would not have had the patience

to redo Cody Roman twice at 40.

Like that is a skill in itself to say, stay in the course.

So that's what I, but of course,

you, Rob, you mentioned the other,

of one of the more egregious things.

We have five years, both from the main roster,

they both debuted literally on the same show.

We have not seen Rio versus Bianca in any former fashion.

I understand they're young enough

for what we can still do it,

but you never know what could happen.

Bianca could have kids and not want to wrestle anymore.

Rio could want to go to AW to be with buddy.

Anything can happen, right?

And we lost Bianca for a year already.

Yeah, over a finger.

Yeah, I'm not saying that,

I'm just mentioning it, I'm saying it could be that small.

So, right, you never know how the diet is going to roll.

We are only ever dog.

We are only ever one bad day

from that match never happening.

Ever. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh, my God, this is good, but that's reality.

Like we've seen it, we've literally seen it happen

in the last five years.

We've seen a career in.

So we're at the biggie.

Go opposite.

Jason, what do you, how do you feel

about the triple A?

Oh, excuse me, I feel pretty similar to you.

I think more hits than this is definitely.

Sometimes some of the long the storylines,

I think he can get over the last in the weeds

when it comes to long term storytelling.

He's better at it overall than probably the other two,

but because they've started doing things like

someone will be in the background of a promo

and that won't come up for three months.

Like, and they've done awesome stuff like that,

but then sometimes I feel like they get lost in the weeds

and it's like, okay, man, you could have ended

this three paper views ago.

So I think that, but I mostly agree with you

with presentation, you know, I mean, it's WWE,

but also they are, you know, it's not just the budget,

it's the fact they are doing new things

and trying different stuff and they put over.

It's the, it's the big top circus, man,

they put out everything is the biggest thing ever big.

And they, they WWE's always the best at that

and Triple H has not lost that in any way.

Like, you know, as soon Royce Keys has gone into

with this protection, waiting for his real debut,

but he's definitely Royce Keys was the thing.

And so every, every, every, every Monday and Friday,

they show that clip of him talking to 70.

Yeah, it's coming, it's coming.

And Jason, I just want to say,

I, because I agree with everything you said.

There's no difference, there's no difference of opinion.

But I do want to stick up for Triple H.

It's just a little bit in that.

Think Triple H really got hot and really got going 95, 96.

From that point on until he retired,

wrestling was so frenetic in terms of story moves fast,

title change, title change, being made boom,

that I think he overcorrected in going too slow.

That's a good way to put it, I totally believe that.

Steve, go ahead, bro.

And then we'll get to you right after that.

Yeah, I, again, we go back to Booker versus Promoter.

Triple H is an excellent promoter.

He makes you feel that he makes you believe in it.

WWE has been aces on presentation, not only their

career, not only their wrestlers, but their shows.

Nobody's topping them.

They're lapping the crowd in every conceivable, friggin way.

He himself has said, from a booking standpoint,

he doesn't book, and it is from his own mouth, we don't book.

And he doesn't book with the mindset of,

oh, are these guys going to have a good match?

He's booking from the standpoint of,

are they going to be able to tell a good story?

And that's, again, the promoter talking,

not a booker talking.

Now, he puts people in the ring who have fantastic matches

together, and I want that to be very clear.

I want the rhetoric that WWE doesn't have good wrestling

to stop, because as Ray said, and rightfully corrected me

earlier on in this show, I jokingly tongue in cheek said,

once a year, WWE reminds us that wrestling is important.

Ray says they do it once a show and Ray is correct.

Once a show, they have an excellent,

too fantastic wrestling match.

And, you know, but that is not Triple H's focus.

And it's not a strength.

He was a great sports entertainer.

He was a fine wrestler in his day.

His focus was not the wrestling.

His focus was all the other stuff.

And he was excellent at all that.

So yeah, from the presentation standpoint,

nobody better right now than Triple H.

From the creative standpoint, I would say of the three,

he's the strongest.

I would say all three of them have weak spots there.

All three of them definitely have blind spots to certain talents

on their rosters, but that's any booker.

And you could go down to the indie promotions as well.

A booker of any show is going to look at somebody and go,

okay, I see it for that guy.

I don't see it for this girl, you know, and that's it.

But they can be the most talented worker on their roster.

But if they don't see it for the show they're trying to produce,

they're not going to do shit with them.

You made me laugh, DJ.

When you said that Triple H is a fine wrestler,

I just had visions of Triple H doing the Indian Death Lock.

Yeah, people were like, what?

Yeah, every now and then, he was sleeping with a little sneaky shit out.

He was like, oh, man, I use that to it.

So, I robbed him, I'm all based, I'm all based,

are you kind of with me on my assessment?

Okay, yeah, now, I think if Triple H was your head coach or your GM,

you would make a playoff every year.

And you would always make a playoff, you would always, every year.

And you got to call them Mike Fluckin Town, the dog.

This one's like my wild bro.

I was thinking that, yeah, but this is wild, son.

But the thing is, because like, if I was going to hire one of these guys

to run my weekly show, I would hire him.

He'd be the one I would pick.

But not where he's lacking, that we talked about sometimes,

just takes too long to make certain matches, just holds off forever.

But also, and this is what we have from on the women's side of a particular.

It's like he takes a lot of steam out of it, you know what I mean?

Like, they have some excellent women's wrestlers, like he presents them

very individually.

But they're just, I mean, they're just kind of like holes and continuity

as far as building matches.

A lot of women's matches, they get like minimal on how to build.

They might get maybe two weeks of going to PLA, and they won't get a whole lot

of substance to it.

And so, you know, I mean,

and one thing I was looking into with that, a lot of women's matches

for the PLA is like the world title matches.

Like a whole lot of them are just going to be in one-offs.

And so you just, you know, you don't build any lore,

you don't build any history between, you know, them.

It's, I mean, a lot of them, they're just one-off matches.

They have the match and then it's over and then don't go to waste.

And you just, it's just hard to build anything like that.

Like right now, like, you know, whoever wins

between Roman and Pukka WrestleMania,

Hugh McIntyre could walk out there to draw

after WrestleMania and challenge you either one of them.

And they got back stories for days.

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Like they just, like they don't build that with them inside.

And, I mean, the closest to come like this,

even with, they have a reunion, you know,

just, I mean, they had several matches last year

and they talk about going back to NXT, blah, blah, blah.

But, like with some of the other,

some of the other matches on the women's side,

they don't, they don't, they don't, history.

And it makes the matches less important.

It makes the matches feel less important

because they're getting a lot of these matches.

They just one-offs and,

also, I feel like just on both sides of the roster,

like, when it comes to things, you know,

looking up somebody with an entire ball.

A lot of times it feels like,

it feels like he's just people titles as a reward.

Yeah, but that's a fist thing.

That's not just a him thing.

But no.

Okay, well, okay, well, then, okay,

well, then they're both guilty.

But, but now it is like a point in the story.

It's like, oh, you got it, okay,

we're gonna give you this belt.

Always, yeah.

And, because lots of times it just aren't plans,

if it feels like he can help you to win the belt,

and then there are no plans.

Who comes after me?

Like last year.

No, that's fair.

Yeah, because like last year, for example, okay.

Eo wins the belt.

She wins the big magic WrestleMania.

She'll be to Rhea and be on good.

And then she literally does nothing for three months,

literally.

Not much, and that happens way too often.

And, and then also, the other thing,

the other criticism I've had of him is it,

I can say he books to the counter.

So, you know, if you come out of WrestleMania with the belt,

then there's a good chance you're gonna hold it

until it's on the fly.

Because that's another vincism.

So, he, yeah, he was, Vince, Vince sat under that tree.

Well, but just saying Vince,

well, watch out, I've been in this, okay.

Cause like Vince books, you know,

he put, he put a lot of child changes

between the Royal Royal Royal WrestleMania.

He wasn't afraid to swap a tie between the Royal Royal

WrestleMania.

He wasn't afraid to swap a tie at all in that summer swing.

So, let me ask you this,

cause we, we do need to get out.

I know we've got it.

We've got time.

No, no, you could.

But I want to ask you this one.

There's one retort to that.

Is that old Vince like, and it's heyday 97 to 2000 Vince,

or is this 2014, 2015 Vince?

Um, cause old events got,

fell into the same tropes that you're late to doing now.

This was, no, this, this was, um, actually,

this was between the recent Blank Brants,

but then when you step down.

Okay, fair enough.

Okay, so, um, more contemporary events.

Yeah, so it's enough.

And I'm not saying you do like, no, you shouldn't do like

the one night title reigns, but.

Well, not got you.

It needs to be more variance.

I'm with you.

Yes.

Somebody's, somebody's title.

Well, because then it becomes predictable.

If the title is for sure,

or the big four, then for, you know,

why is the rest of the programming worth watching?

Yeah, so I mean, so I think, you know,

some of these six more title ranges to be three months.

You know, so we're doing on that.

Yeah, so let's, let's do Sean last, cause you know,

DJ, I know you try to keep this thing about 90 minutes.

Yeah, um, Sean is, I think it's not the most interesting

because of everybody listed things.

So differently with NXT.

And I also think Sean is only one that has a curve

because Sean is working with people

who actually haven't done this before.

So with that, and Mike, you're taking away from him any day.

Well, and the whole point of being there is to learn how to do it.

Yeah, and get moved up.

So yeah, he is booking a different show.

Yes, and the other two.

So with that being said, I think Sean is really good at

crab direction.

I think you want to give him like a B plus.

I think he's terrible, terrible at matchmaking.

I watch NXT every week.

It's my favorite show.

And I can't tell you how many times that he books a match.

I care to see.

And when he does Soul Rooker in Zaria,

it's way too fucking laden nobody cares anymore.

You know, or they're on the way out.

And they gotta do, they gotta do the honors real fast

and give people the match that they wanted to see for,

I don't know, seven, eight, nine months,

almost as similar to the tropes that Rob was talking about 100.

But of the three we mentioned,

Sean gets a plus plus plus plus plus plus plus plus plus

in presentation.

More than anybody.

These are people you've never seen before,

never heard of before, most of them.

Some of them of course are indie people or whatever.

But people you've never seen before, heard of before,

cared about, thought of none of this.

Resolving in front of a studio with like 300 people

who are the same motherfuckers that show up every day on Tuesday.

And I guarantee you in two months, you don't care

about their runs.

That is a skill.

That is a skill.

The way he can bring someone on your screen

and almost immediately you care or you are intrigued

or you are involved.

You something about you has connected to that character,

positively and negatively,

from a hill standpoint or a face standpoint.

I think that is by far the greatest accomplishment

of any of the three.

Because you know, we look at all these people

and of course there's a lot of people they have time.

You have to have time to build on these things.

But when you talk about a show of the developmental

and everybody come out of there,

normally there's some type of a star.

That's presentation, my boy.

And it's also making these presentations.

I was listening to Trick Williams

do an interview with Ebro, Lauren, Rosenberg,

to their show that they have now.

So it's not a high night set anymore.

And he was explaining that, you know,

and Ebro knows the whoop dad trick thing was like,

well, you, you probably, you grade and everything,

but you know, the hustlers and flow terrors,

how would people know that stuff?

He said, you don't understand.

The song, my song is just 808s.

It has no words to it.

The fans chant that.

You know who started that?

20 people in the next year.

The all but fit me in Baku Chit.

20 people in the next year started that.

That's a, that's a shun thing.

So, these days, you don't want to

didn't go first and then go around the horn

and then it is back in your capable hands.

My bearded beautiful brother.

I agree.

Again, once, but complete and try back to here, man.

I agree with everything you said.

The Matt again, NXT for me, just in turn.

And some of that is just me looking at it

from somebody who used to do this.

I love watching the talent develop.

I love looking at who may actually have the next thing

and looking at who they want to be the next thing

and try to determine whether they have it.

And then trying to just say, like,

we discussed Braun Breaker on this show three years ago

when everybody was saying, send Braun Breaker up now.

Send Braun Breaker up now.

And we collectively on this show,

we said, no, keep him down there another year.

Mm-hm.

People go the Femi down there another year.

We said it with all three of them.

Trick Williams, keep him down there another year.

And it has done wonders under Sean's tutelage

because again, now, two of the three of those guys

and I'm going to plant my flag here are generational.

Trick Williams and Oma Femi are this generation's rock

and Austin waiting to have it.

Man, you better tell someone's back on your vine,

Evan's taking my breath.

Dude, I'm not, that's the, and that's the hard part

of this discussion is that dude is awesome.

I love him.

Yeah, I love him.

But I said, as presented right now.

I give to you.

I give to you the two guys one A and one B

are going to be trick, trick Williams and Oma Femi.

Yep.

And that's again, like you said, all presentation.

You've got kids and Nana's doing the Oma Femi walk

on social media.

Dude, that's shit is iconic.

Well, it's, it's tricks got the whoop that trick.

As soon as, as soon as Giovanni finds that hook

or that thing, then he has, he has it.

They just don't want to do it.

If you know what I'm talking about, it's the 670.

And they would know where they put it.

But he think about it.

He has a shirt and he does say it in promo sometimes.

But don't, I think even David Davies like to,

okay, we'll get you the shirt.

But come on, bro.

We're not doing that.

So, but yeah, no, it's again, presentation.

NXT, again, just, it's the most easily easy

to watch wrestling show on North American TV for me.

I agree with you to a line about the matchmaking.

I give him a little more credit than you do.

I've seen some damn fun matches in NXT.

I think you'll stage the good stuff for the,

for the premium live events.

Yeah.

I think his timing in his shows is excellent.

The premium live events, the shows flow better.

So, yeah, creative process is very smooth.

So, yeah, that's about where I stand with Sean.

I think he's a good mix of Booker and Promoter.

Let me give you just, okay.

Did anybody really want to see Blake Monroe and Jordan Grace?

I did.

Honestly, I did.

Yeah, I did.

Respect to y'all.

I had no interest in that.

I did.

I had big respect.

Well, then Jordan Grace should have been called up

even before that, but respect to that.

But another thing.

She shouldn't go straight to the main roster.

Well, I'm fine with her getting her feet wet

because she did a cup of coffee when she was still signed

to, you know, to, to, to, to silver in a, yeah.

But I'm sorry, I've just jumped in, but yeah.

No, I'm gonna next.

Okay.

Turn it in.

You can go around and knock it out.

No, they're up.

Okay.

Maggard, most of y'all are saying, now if the meeting,

Sean's biggest strength was, I think he's great at

creating and presenting them as characters.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So not, you know, and, and even look at the little

wacky backstage segments that they have.

They actually, those, like, they have some real,

you know, oomphs and some real energy to them.

Right?

Because sometimes even when we're all smack on the backstage

stuff, it's like they're exciting.

It's great.

You know?

And, you know, like the stuff on NXT, you know,

they're not, they're not as polished.

So sometimes it doesn't sound as good,

but it also doesn't sound as rushed.

Mm-hmm.

So, I think he does a great job at that.

Now, the matchmaking, yeah, I'm,

because yes, there are a lot of weeks where the matches

are just like that texture.

And then you save the best stuff for, you know,

the PLAs.

Yeah, absolutely.

And then, like, I think you also gotta give him credit

for the fact that he's working on a roster

with any, sometimes that, you know, any, any week,

one of the people might be gone.

You know, they might be called up.

And then sometimes they don't get called up.

When we think they should, then he has to find something

more for them to do for another three or four months.

Or it happens how it gets released.

So he got to find something like a,

like, when he had,

I mean, I mean, I mean, I was due for a title match,

and they were the same.

Well, Tatum Paxley was in the middle of a three woman tag team.

And they released a TG Dolan and a Shotzi Blackhark.

And they released two thirds of that team,

left her flounder and he had to figure out what to do with her.

Yeah.

And remember Wes Lee?

Wes Lee's partner got fired.

And he came in to be a tag team.

And, you know, they were able to come up with all that stuff

for Wes Lee to make him a legit champion.

Well, Wes always had it in him.

But yeah, have you right?

But I mean, but the bookers got, you know,

the bookers got to believe in him.

And the booker has to make the effort to get you there.

And not just for him, and not just for me.

And not just, you know, right you office.

Oh, well, we had a tag team in one under five.

So we're just, you know, job out.

You know, we let go.

You know, I mean, so I can, you know, all those things.

Yeah, I would say that the match, I think sometimes we can

a little bit to be decided.

Honestly, yeah, I mean, if I took a fault,

that was probably the biggest one.

But I think for working with, if I would say,

for working with what you have and getting the most out

of what you have, I think, yeah, I think he's the best.

Like, look, if Triple H is Mike Tomlin,

and Sean is very brown, Larry, you know,

Larry Brown had out, I was into a bunch of guys.

And it got to the finals.

Well, sure, but, but, but every Larry Brown team

that he's ever coached hated Larry Brown,

they just worked.

That's the love shot.

OK, so maybe they lost the Shawn Michaels down there.

No, OK, OK, what's my, just,

well, you know, I was young with you.

Yeah, I mean, Sean, you know, you give him,

you give him two top wrestlers or, you know,

you give him who make people have, right?

And even though I can get like next week,

three people might get called up, two people might get released.

And, and, you know, three people that he had ready to go.

One good call, but now he's got a,

you get, he's got to hang on to him for another six months.

Tell me, I think that's what happened with Saul, basically.