MINI TRUE CRIME ROUNDUP: Tupac, D4vd and the Lindsay Clancy mistrial

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1:00Let's clear the air about hybrids with Kia. I live in Pasadena, so my Kia Telluride Turbo Hybrid has to do a little of everything. School bags, speech chairs, a grocery run, I swore would be small. And somehow there's still room in my sister techs. I'm landing in Burbank, come pick me up. It seats seven, has over 600 miles of range, and makes the 134 feel a little less like a test of character. Space, range, flexibility. The Kia Telluride Turbo Hybrid is built for the way L.A. moves. Find your way forward at Kia.com. Kia, movement that inspires. This is a true crime roundup from the On Deadline podcast. We explore crime stories reported on by Odyssey's radio newsrooms across the country. I'm your host, Lauren Berry. This week we'll hear real-time reactions to the confusing and somewhat chaotic jury deliberation that ended the controversial trial of Lindsay Clancy, a Massachusetts mother accused of strangling her three children.

2:02Clancy's legal team argued that she suffered from the rare postpartum psychosis disorder. And her story opened up a national conversation about postpartum disorders. Just as the public struggled to come up with easy conclusions in the Clancy case, the jury deadlocked and eventually it ended in a mistrial. Will the prosecution seek another trial? We'll hear legal experts weigh in about the case and what happens next. Before we get into the Clancy case, we also have updates on two cases related to well-known musicians. One involves a legendary rapper. The other involves someone who was an up-and-coming music star, who then became infamous when the body of a teen girl was found in a task-club registered to him. Here's Odyssey's station K.N.X News in Los Angeles this week with the latest on David Anthony Burke,

3:03who goes by the stage named David, stylized as D4VD. The downtown LA now outside a court where the singer David was arranged and as expected, he pleaded not guilty to murdering 14-year-old Celeste Rivas Hernandez, but the shake-up was with his legal team. His attorneys are gone. The DA's also been talking. John Baird has been there all morning. He's live with us now, John. Yeah, it was longer than usual arrangement that I've seen. It was probably twice as long as usual, but they were dealing with the attorney issue, but also the DA laid out the specific charges here. First-degree murder, special circumstances, Ludan Lissibius, sex acts with a person under 14, and mutilation of human remains, he says the judge held David Anthony Burke to answer for those charges. He entered and not guilty, but there were a number of things they dealt with in the DA, Nathan Hockman, addressed a number of them here outside the courthouse. The last thing that will have to be decided, and that's a decision by myself as the district attorney,

4:07is whether or not we'll be seeking the death penalty in this case. We had invited David Anthony Burke's prior counsel to submit what's called a mitigation packet to the district attorney's office for consideration. A mitigation packet are factors that we are to consider why we should not bring the death penalty in this case. So again, they haven't made a decision on that, but as far as counsel goes, David Anthony Burke is switching to the public defender's office. He is switching out from his private attorneys, probably, you know, hide all the attorneys to the public defender's office. And so we're wondering about that because of his music career that started to make him a lot of money, but at this point it looks like he's going to switch out to the public defender. Imagine every time your business makes a sale, inventory updates, and invoices created, customer records are updated, accounting stays current. That's the power of ODEU, one fully integrated platform, where every part of your business

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6:11smallest UV, real cargo room, I've got turbocharged power, and all we'll drive for the day's LA decides to be more mountain than city. The all new Kia Salto's is built for the way your life actually moves. Find your way forward at Kia.com. Kia. Movement that inspires. 30 years after a legendary rapper two-pock was murdered, a man has been found guilty of the slaying. One of the reporters covering the case joined KNX before the verdict was announced. Let's go to Vegas for the two-pock trial, the two-pock murder trial, because it's already starting to wrap up. Closing arguments will get underway today. This is for Dwayne, Keefy D, Davis, and not for firing the shots, but for being the shot caller. We're live now with AP reporter Jessica Hill, who's been covering this. Jessica, thanks for being here. Thanks for what you're having me. Are you surprised that this just lasted two weeks and you're already getting the closing arguments? Oh yes, yeah. Prosecutors had estimated to have up to 45 witnesses, and I believe only like 24 have been called. I think that they have run into some difficulties and game people to come out. I spoke with the defense attorney, and he said that some

7:14people just won't come out and testify on their behalf. Do you think that benefits one side or the other? Because even with the 25, that still a much longer list than what the defense had. For sure. Talking with the defense attorney, he seems pretty hopeful. He doesn't think jury deliberation will take very long. He seems pretty adamant that his client is just lying, and can't be relied upon with his own words. I mean, what has been your take on the jury? I know it's hard to read them sometimes, but just wondering since you've been covering the trial, what have you seen from them? When do they start to scribble? If anything, right. If anything, right. Books, right? Yeah, there's been like a mix. They've all seem to pay pretty close attention. I noticed like the autopsy photos were of high attention for them, but some of these interview recordings that prosecutors played seem to kind of slow things down. Some people had a call for break after a while, because I'm sure you've been paying attention, but there's been just like recording after recording after recording, in which Dwayne Davis says basically the same thing

8:15over and over again. So some areas have been kind of tiring for these jurors. Remind us because we did talk before about this jury, but some of these people after 30 years, they don't really know much about this case. These are not like the two-pock documentary watchers. Exactly. Some of them have heard of him vaguely. Some of them have heard that he died here. Maybe a few years ago, they had listened to his music, but for the most part, there are quite a few jurors that don't even know who he is. And really, when it comes to the prosecution, this is really like, Keffi D's words coming back to bite him. Exactly. Yeah, they've relied on previous statements that he made, a lot of media interviews with documentaries and portions of his own book. And then the defense has basically said that, they've never tried to verify any of these claims that have ever been able to prove anything with actual physical evidence that connects Davis to any of these crimes. Yeah, so the words could come back to bite him if they bite him, because you've touched on this, but his own defense is painting him as the unreliable narrator, saying, look, I was lying. I wanted some fame. I wanted money, but I didn't actually do all the things. And he's gone so far as

9:19to say that he wasn't even in Vegas at the time after repeatedly saying that he was in the car, right next to the car that actually were the shots were fired from. That's exactly right. Yeah, and prosecution has tried to show some physical evidence, but we really haven't seen much. One investigator had talked about a hotel bill from Las Vegas that was found in Davis's home. However, we never saw that bill. And we don't know the exact date that that bill came from. So there's not too much physical evidence, which the prosecution had been upfront about telling jurors at the very beginning that, you know, what is your definition of evidence? You know, there might be a lack of physical evidence, but, you know, is a man's own words enough to convince him. Well, we'll find out. AP reporter Jessica Hill, who's been covering this two-pock murder trial in Vegas. Thanks so much. Now we'll move on to the Lindsay Clancy murder trial. Clancy allegedly killed her three young children and attempted to take her own life by falling out of a window at her home. She remains paralyzed. Clancy's defense team has

10:23argued that she was suffering from postpartum psychosis. And she has described hearing voices that told her to kill her children. Leading up to the tragedy, Clancy did seek mental health care and was prescribed multiple medications. Though the jury in the case deliberated for more than seven days, they couldn't reach a unanimous verdict. Judge William Sullivan eventually called a mistrial. According to reports from ABC News and other outlets, a lone holdout juror refused to vote for a quiddle. ABC said the mood in the courtroom was tense when people learned that the case was going to be a mistrial. Here's Odyssey's Annie Fry out of KFTK and St. Louis reacting to the courtroom proceedings on Friday, September 4th. I want to interrupt. Can we interrupt and listen to the TV real quick? The judge is talking in the clancy trial. Let me just just wanted to go over a couple of

11:25things. I think he's talking to the jury. First off, I want to remind you that you are required to follow my instructions on the law as I gave them to you. All right. I also want to at this point go over the instruction that I gave you about reasonable doubt. All right. And so, uh, reasonable doubt. The burden is on the Commonwealth to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant is guilty of the charges made against her. What is proof beyond a reasonable doubt? Well, the term is often used and probably pretty well understood that it's not easily defined. Proof beyond a reasonable doubt does not mean proof beyond all possible doubt for everything in the lives of human. The Dave Glover team out of Odyssey Station KMO X and St. Louis asked attorney Brad Young to weigh in on what was happening in the clancy trial. Brad, maybe you can make some heads or tails out of this. It's all kind of chaotic, but what we're seeing in this Lindsey

12:28Clancy case is that the judge is calling the jurors up to his bench for a sidebar with them one by one. And the defense attorney, Mr. Reddington evidently just through a hissy fit was throwing things. Any idea what's I've never heard of this calling jurors up one by one. Well, while the clancy is a part of the sidebar. So the defendants up there too? Yes. Oh, yeah. Now that changes that completely changes my analysis because I have heard of judges doing a one in what we call the hammer instruction. You've heard that term before. That's where the judge basically does everything but whack them with his mallet to say go back in there and reach a decision because we don't want to hung jury here. But I have never ever heard of the defendant being a part of the sidebar in that kind of situation. Yeah, it's quite unusual from what I can. I mean,

13:29just looking at Twitter here, Brad, it's a it's really hard to parse out what's happening. And then also listening to our ABC coverage of one year during the break, they're trying to figure out what's going on too. Let's let's see. I'm going to pot it up for a second here because on CNN, anyway, it looks like there's something happening in the courtroom. So let's see what ABC is saying. So live feed from the courtroom. Yeah, they're waiting on something. And I believe that is the defense attorney. Shuffle well, while we're hearing that, I can tell you one thing. I've been in trials where the judge wanted to actually question the plaintiff or the defendant. And I like clansies attorney. I threw a hissy fit because if the judge asked, we're going to continue to watch

14:30these live pictures inside. What do you object to? Yeah, jury told the judge that they're inextricably deadlocked. He called them up one by one. And now instead of just sending a hammer instruction to them as a note, he's telling them right now, this is what I told you before. Get your butts back in there and get the job done one way or the other. I think this is a public hammer instruction. What we're seeing right here. This is about the longest I've seen a judge keep a jury. Yeah, but you know what? Even the judge knows, especially the judge knows that this is a media circus. And he doesn't want to see the state have to go through this again one way or the other because frankly, appeals are likely. Certainly if there's a conviction and appeals likely, if there's an acquittal, that's not going to happen in most instances. But he wants this to be done at least from the circuit court level. And the way you do it is keep hammering the jury to get back in there and get the job done. At the end of the day, like I said, I think it was on Tuesday. I think the issue

15:33isn't whether that she's guilty or innocent. But the issue from the jury is, is she guilty of first degree, second degree or manslaughter. And that's what's got them all tied up. Man, really interesting coverage of we have CNN up on the television here. We're able to see it. I don't know if you were able to see this Brad, but the defense attorney had his chair positioned, like facing the jury, kind of staring them down as the as the judge was making these statements. And then the the camera was zooming in on Lindsey Clancy as well, who eventually kind of turned in a bit and was clearly looking down at the jury. Interesting stuff. Yeah, lots of games are played. I mean, and that's the subjective part of litigation is that there's a lot of mind games. There's a lot of second guessing. One way or the other. There's a lot of intimidation. There's a lot of posturing. And that happens. And sometimes when you watch stuff on TV, like in fiction, like the Lincoln lawyer or something, they obviously

16:34exaggerate how much that exists, but it does truly exist. Another expert, attorney Terry Connors, joined Odyssey Station WBN News and Talk in Buffalo to discuss the case this week before the mistrial was announced. He dove in to why the jury might have been having so much trouble. Terry, you have so much experience with this. What do you think this jury is struggling with? Well, they're struggling right now with the issue with regard to not guilty by reason of insanity. That is going to be the most difficult thing for them to decide. That's what's causing the split. And in Massachusetts, the burden is on the commonwealth to prove that she was saying that the time and the commission of the acts. That's what most of the trial was about. And that's no doubt what they're deliberating. That's no doubt what the nine women and the three men are stuck on right now and trying to make a decision about whether or not the prosecution

17:35has proved beyond a reasonable doubt that she was saying at the time of these horrendous killings. The makeup of that jury that you just mentioned, nine women and three men. You know, they get to go through and pick the jury and both sides get to veto some and allow others. But I feel like a lot of attention is being placed on that just because of the makeup and because of what the case is really all about how much weight do you put on having a majority women on that jury in what we saw yesterday? It's interesting, Brian. You know, I've been doing this for a number of years. And the more you speculate about the content of a jury, the more opportunity for you to get it wrong. Now, the commentators have said, well, the women might be somewhat sympathetic to the situation because they would be more cognizant of the feelings that a woman might

18:37have when she's going through postpartum psychosis. Others have said, well, but the men would be less likely to judge. It's very difficult to speculate and often when you do you're wrong. But I would say this, nine women are going to give you a very good perspective. They've not revealed the ages of the women, but they're going to give you the kind of insight that obviously no other sex can give you. And that's going to be very important. And I'm sure that went into it when the prosecution and the defense were deciding what challenges to exercise and who should remain on that jury. So it will be a factor. No question about it. But you won't know the division of debate until after the trial. This jury has spent a lot of time with this case. And there's been a lot of back and forth about whether they should have been sequestered or not. I mean, they're going home at night and they are exposed to an awful lot of coverage of this trial. Is that impacting this? Well, there's been a real shift in the psychology of sequestration. If you go back a number of

19:41years, you probably recall that most of the jury, especially in a capital case or an emergency case, were sequestered for that very reason. Susan, but the psychological evaluation now is jurors are inconvenienced enough. They're kept out of their homes away from their family. You have to trust them. They took a note. You got to put them back into their comfortable environment. And it's going to be easier and it's going to result in quicker deliberations. Can't say who's right or who's wrong, but that's the way the current status is. Let them go home. Let them go back to the community. Let them go back to their support groups. Tell them before they leave that judge Sullivan did. You cannot look at any extraneous information. You cannot read media accounts or even talk to your neighbors or your family members. But at least they'll be home in their own environment. That's the common perspective now. And all of that might lead to better results in an initial trial. But what if there is a mistrial and another trial in this? And

20:42I'm thinking of another Massachusetts case and that's the Karen Reed trial. They've got so much attention. All of a sudden there's all right. A different jury comes in and there's another trial. There's no way that a different jury now. After all the attention couldn't have been influenced by some of the outside noise around the Karen Reed case. And this has gotten similar attention. If there is a mistrial, what happens for a second trial? Well, that's a great question. You might be surprised though. I've been involved in second trials before. And while you and I and Susan follow these things very closely, in the voidere, the jury selection process for the second trial, each of the jurors is asked specifically what their knowledge is about the previous case. Now, there'll be a delay. There'll be several months won't go right away if there is a second trial. And you'll be surprised how many jurors, at least in the

21:42inquiry by the judge and by the lawyer, say, I don't have that much information about it. I didn't follow that closely. Now, whether or not they're telling you truth, you don't really know. But you'd be surprised at how many will say that I'm starting with a clean slate. And therefore, I feel as though I can make this decision based upon the evidence that's produced in the courtroom. For more on what comes next, attorney Shina Foy of law firm Worsh Hobbes and Merakian joined the Dana and Parks Show out of Odyssey Station KMBZ in Kansas City. What do we make of the flurry of activity that we saw here today and the fireworks and the judge refusing really to change his position on what happened here during deliberations? That's question number one. And then question number two, do you think we'll hear from any of these jurors? Are they going into hiding? Well, there was definitely a, this case has really had a lot of very interesting twists. I think

22:44what the judge was doing today, what defense had asked was for him to individually question the one juror who I believe on the note was named by number as being called out by the other jurors for not applying the law. And so what he was asking was for that judge for judge Sullivan to further question that individual juror and what Judge Sullivan was saying is I'm not going to do further than what I've already done. Every juror told me that they were going to follow the law and based off of that, that's only the inquiry I'm going to do. He then defense counsel then sought to seek review of that decision by Judge Sullivan to not do further inquiry about juror and the high court and Massachusetts denied to state our request. And so Judge Sullivan was then free to issue the mistrial. This went to a higher court and the higher court said no. That they're not going to state a proceeding. They're going to defer to Judge Sullivan.

23:46What's your take on that, Gina? The four person, foreman of this jury, I think actually, I think it's a woman, but the four person sent out a note saying we have a juror and you're right, they did identify the juror by number, which I think is not supposed to happen. Regardless, that is not following the law. Should the judge have pulled that one juror side or maybe there's a different argument here, pulled the four person aside or sent a note back saying, what do you mean that this juror is not following the law? Give me an example. So I think the judge is in a very hard position here. What happens in jury rooms is supposed to be the on-mokes confidence and secrecy. It's a sacred proceeding, but the misclancy she also has constitutional rights. Without having the note in front of me, what I believe the content of the note was is that this juror, this particular juror,

24:47is refusing to follow the law in the reasonable doubt instruction, meaning that they have expressed doubts and they're not following through. I think that Mr. Ridington did everything right in jealousy advocating for his client and pushing for that. In terms of the judge not seeking further inquiry, I don't necessarily think that that's going to be an issue that an appellate court would reverse him on. And so I think he was just airing on the side of caution and there was nothing in that note that would have said, you know, there was any wrongdoing going on other than potentially that one juror didn't feel like the doubt he had was sufficient or it's kind of a vague instruction. What is reasonable doubt? And so these 11 people had one view of it and did that wonder have a different view of it or was he really not following the law? And so I would have done the same thing

25:50as Mr. Ridington and pushed for further inquiry, but ultimately I don't think that the judge made their own call. Where do we go from here? This just starts all over? So the district attorney and I was able to watch a little bit of his press conference before getting on the phone with you guys. It was interesting to me that he did not immediately commit to a retrial. Now his tone was very fiery and I do anticipate they will retry, but if this did hang 11 to 1 either for a straight acquittal or not guilty by the reason of insanity, which is what it appears it has, I think that that is a shocking blow to the Commonwealth and they really should evaluate their evidence based off of that verdict. Now he gives himself some wiggle room there on what maybe they're going to recharge it as. The sentiments that he gave even though he didn't commit to a retrial certainly indicate that they are going to retry her for intentional malice acts. I mean he made comments about this is a brutal murder or she was in her right mind.

26:57And so Mr. Ridington indicated that he's ready to try it next week and they have an obligation to try her speedily. And so I think they're not going to have as much time to fix their case as they might think and they really I think should hopefully listen to the comments of the jury if they stick around about maybe they're seeing their case a little too one sided. Does is it true that a second trial or a retrial favors the prosecution? You know there that's there is that sentiment out there. I don't necessarily think it's strongly favors either. It gives both sides a chance to correct errors or you know move forward with things a little bit differently. The state has the benefit of maybe knowing what the playbook for the defense is. But in this case I don't think it was that much of a secret. Why not just settle? Why not just come together the Commonwealth and the defense

28:01attorney and say look no one wants to put the families through this again and come to some agreement for some punishment. So that really is a question for the prosecutor. The prosecutor is in charge of what offers are given. The defense does not dictate that and so the interview given by district attorney Cruz shows that their office really has been unwilling to offer anything other than a malice murder charge. Maybe this process shows them that their case isn't nearly a strong as they thought and there can be that conversation. Again when I was on earlier with you I said I'm not sure who's who's pushing for a malice murder conviction when the surviving victims families do seem like they are sympathetic to Lindsay and would be fine with her being placed in a an a mental institution for a plea of NGRI. So those are all things that the state has to reconsider

29:03I do think he gave himself a little breathing room by not immediately saying we're going to retry this case. Thank you so much for listening to this true crime roundup from the on deadline podcast. This episode was written and produced by me Lauren Berry. Special thanks to KNX news in Los Angeles, the Annie Fry show out of KFTK in St. Louis, the Dave Glover show out of KMOX in St. Louis, a new morning out of WBEN in Buffalo, the Dana and Parks show out of KMBZ in Kansas City, and WCCO news and talk in the Twin Cities, including Jason Derussia and the Adam and Jordania show. You can find these programs on the Odyssey app or wherever you find your podcasts. You can find these true crime roundups by subscribing to the on deadline podcast, the Who Killed Strawberry podcast, or the bitter academia podcast on the Odyssey app or wherever

30:09you get your podcasts. It's five o'clock, your employees are heading home. But you're still updating spreadsheets, switching between software and wondering where the day went. There's a better way. Odo brings accounting, sales, inventory, CRM, and more together in one fully integrated platform. So you spend less time managing software and more time running your business. Because your work day should end, eventually try OdoFree at Odo.com. That's odo.com. Heading back to campus, timed to upgrade your entire tech setup. Switch to Verizon, buy or bring a qualifying smartphone and get a smartwatch and a tablet on us. That's all your essential gear

31:14for zero extra dollars. Ace your classes, track your fitness, and stream your favorite shows. Visit Verizon.com or your local store today. Bring an eligible phone to purchase a new phone with device payment on post-paid service plan required. Up to $6.49.99, watch and tablet device payment purchase with new line on $20 per month tablet plan and $50 per month watch plan for 36 months required. Less up to $650 per month credit applied over 36 months per device. Additional taxes fees in terms of supply. Compact, capable, surprisingly roomy. Always forward with Kia. My apartment garage in Los Felices was clearly designed by someone who never had to open a car door. That's where my Kia Salto's just fits. With room for work bags, yoga mats, groceries, and whatever I accidentally buy at the Rose Bowl flea market, smallest UV. Real cargo room. I've got turbocharged power and all-wheel drive for the days LA decides to be more mountain than city. The all-new Kia Salto's is built for the way your life actually moves. Find your way forward at Kia.com. Kia. Movement that inspires. Girl, let's get real. Some pads are just diapers with a good PR team. But not the new Cotex BioCare. That's because Cotex BioCare helps defend against odor and irritants.

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