Minister Thembi Simelane unpacks: TRC Inquiry, Nokuthula Simelane, Steve Biko, NPA, Apartheid

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1:01Spred the fire, welcome back to SMWX and today I am very glad and very honored to be joined by Minister Timbi Simelane. She's the Minister of Human Settlements but also an extremely important person in South Africa and its history and today we are going to be discussing her sister who has been a very important figure in South African history. She's the Minister of Human Settlements in South African history who has unfortunately abducted and disappeared during the apartheid regime. There's a new foundation in her honor and we're going to be talking about the very long road towards truth and justice and in addition maybe throw in some questions about politics. But we'll see if we get there. Minister it's always great to have you. Thank you very much and good afternoon. Thank you for coming back. This is the second time you've been here. It's always great to have you. Your sister, Nogtuila Simelane disappeared in 1983.

2:01Yeah. And we still don't exactly know what happened. We threw various processes right from the TRC all the way up until today. I've had some pieces of the puzzle come together but their story may many mysteries around her disappearance. Yeah well and I think I'm resigning myself to accepting that I think I may never find her remains. In whatever form they were or they are. I'm alive to the fact that she might have not been buried as in Dagehul, maybe thrown into a river. In fact quite a number of those were abducted after her were bent to ashes. Maybe she was one of them. So searching is not necessarily to say I will touch a bone. But is a search which suggests to say she moved here and ultimately we bend here.

3:07We were standing at this mountain possibly next to that tree we don't recall very well and that's it. And I think that will allow me my family friends and everybody involved. So what we need more to do for her to bring her back home. We have got customs when African family so we've never been able to perform that. But I also believe that we have never been able to give her a technique back. How she was captured how she was touched I mean touched her is ugly. It strips you of your dignity. It's a little astript of her dignity as well. It's in true and extend that she will soil herself. She will be allowed to clean herself. She will be thrown into a river when well not necessarily a river but a cattle zinc. So you can picture them in farms where they store water.

4:10And that's how they will clean it. And as part of the torture. It's a very small window up. The no bait necessarily. It's a slip to us kept to a minimum. In fact the chair's record says she came in beautiful but when it was closed she was unrecognizable. I was in a state where I was saying to my sister and I was like oh I'm sorry. You had to undertake this you did but now it's time. In whatever way to rest you brought home to your loved ones. We accept the situation in the condition as it is to allow us to move forward. I'm not certain if I'll ever get to reach there but that's what we're in for. Yeah sure it's such a shocking and terrifying story and sad.

5:15And I still hope I still hope but I'm sure you've been you've been... We live in hope I've been in court for 10 years. I'm aware. Since 2016. And this was just a part of at least the 10 years was directly a case that the perpetrator has a facing for her torture, for her forced disappearance and the allegations of murder. Previous years it has been really a legal battle either setting aside the chair's review guidelines or policy amendments. The way in 2007 I think we got the outcome in 2008 with the credit for. And secondly it would have been the fight for the investigations to happen. And then ultimately of course through a fight as well then 2016.

6:15I think I filed in 2015 but the outcome and the charging was in 2016. And I've been in court for 10 soldies. And it looks like it's still counting. Got to court some two weeks or so ago. We're back into the application by one of the accused for fitness to stand trial. So I'm not even yet in the merit 10 years on into the discussion. So there's been quite a lot of interlocal applications. Well you are charging us that she has disappeared but she has never been declared it. And then there will be a hearing in the made a charge hearing you have to follow processes declared it. And then come back and when you come back. Yeah. There's just been one heal after the other.

7:18And so help us understand each of these processes. The TRC it seems resolved some of the questions of torture but never resolved the murder. Yes the outcome of the amnesty committee to my parents as well. Yes we appreciate we found she was attacked. She was kept in the nowood farm. Her brother had caught us which is a police head caught us. And they moved subsequently to a farm to know where we know. And then two versions. Vision A says we then loved it after all this nested to create health and send it back to Switzerland. And the other version said she was never released. And she was no longer in a state that you will amount it really to a human being.

8:22And with what was the charge of the city's vision A is unbelievable. We unfortunately can arrive but we actually can grant you an nasty for torture. Because the torture the way he's explained is deemed to have rendered here incapable. So the question is therefore once we have said with this woman from around early September to around November then what. And it then refused the amnesty for the torture with the possibility that the torture would have led to murder. But refer you to the NPA to go for an investigation of what would have ultimately happened to her. That's where my problem started. Absolutely. Because I assume if the TRC had given itself and I don't know why really. Because time was not necessarily an issue. It's just that the TRC was not fully compensated with investigators as well.

9:23So that part was not investigated. In fact there were very minimal investigations in my sister's case that we are undertaken by the TRC and its investigators. I mean the colleagues of Noctula from the ANC they did a lot of lifting in terms of availing information of what they've been able to piece themselves together including Gilbet Tuala and others who then came to the commission TRC then even what was disputed because Vesion A was saying no no no we took a pick and she was able to give us some leads and the people who arrested. And they sat and said who. And then they looked for those people they found them and they were prepared to hand them to the inquiry arsum. Well mostly we were in around 1985 and the articles the time we cut out to just the TRC.

10:26But nonetheless we were able to navigate the space we passed it. Unfortunately we then belonged into a head of the NPA which has never been resolved. And that is where I want to turn now because it took about 20 years to even get a prosecution going for the murder. I believe two people have since passed away. Yes out of the four years. Which I mean is already very. So from TRC all the way to 2016 that's the amount of time it took to initiate the prosecution. So the outcome came in 2003 and this Vesion A in Vesion. In fact my father passed without having it. He went to the TRC himself he passed in 2001. In 2003 at least we lead our hand into the outcome. Right. And in 2003 right up until 2007 nothing was happening.

11:26Nothing. So I had knocked on each and every door you could imagine. I mean I was a, I lost so much stuff between the age of eight and nine years. Sure. So frankly I had no idea what to do with this. So I literally had to go look for a friend, look for a roommate, look for any other person who had a connection with him. Start to put the pieces together with the hope that there will be investigations. And started knocking strongly at the door of the MPA somewhere around 2008. So just for the appointment of an investigator. Because remember you can't just wake up and charge without an investigation. That process around for about three or four years just requesting for an investigator.

12:27Which was suplicantly never giving. That's how I met the foundation for human rights. Out of frustration going into the MPA and then going into this unit which deals with exhumations. So I haven't you had anything about a lonely bond somewhere in between the space in a western area because the allegations that was taken towards that side. There's a rusting back. So haven't you picked up anything? Can you please check maybe more to our records? Then I was introduced to the foundation. Then the foundation hired our quest as a family. The late Frank Patton who really lifted up the lead for us went look for safe houses, look for everybody else we've never found. So the foundation paid for the private investigation of actually what brought us into what we actually know now beyond what the TRC.

13:31We still continue now we then had a battle in a fight of getting the state to accept the work Frank utilizes as the state. Even if you are not asking for your fund we've done this wake yourself. Yeah we've done it for the state we still couldn't lift anything I think Frank finished around 2011 or so. Right up to that 2010 scenario I was walking at the NPA they will tell me no wait what is with the welcome. Priorit is so careful now we'll see when we're done. And we hope with Frank we found this we followed the leads and we compiled the report and we started knocking. Okay we've done what you couldn't do it took us from that period that 2011 or so to 2015. Right. Then I really was taking the state now to cut for failing to carry the responsibility but in the investigation we came across some leads which were suggesting that no man there wasn't a variance.

14:53Which is what led to the Galata group so a substantial of that David emanates from the nocturna against the state or the academy versus the state then in 2015. That's where the in-camera David David of Vosipicoli and then alleging what the inquiries about now being tested came about. So that or that period took us from the time of the conclusion of the investigation at around that 2011 or so by Frank to 2015 and subsequently shown Abrams in 2016 if I'm not wrong. And I think we were weak so to the hearing and requested through my lawyers to have a meeting we went to the NPA and it leaded. You can't take the state to court I said well I'm left with nothing. I have got nothing remaining and I think I've exercised patience enough. It's up to you between now and that day so that's how the four we charged.

15:59And then subsequently appeared I think in the second half of 2016 and they were granted bill of 5,000 each they were four. So it was Cucie it was the Pretoria it was Moan and had a and in between 2019 and 2021 respectively. I mean it would be I think Moan passed first and had a bad amoeba wrong but one in 2020 in 2019 and I think the other in 2021 some way they. So I remain with two in the form of Cucie and the Pretoria's test though on the child which as I said is not studied because for the second time around now four years after Cucie was declared fit to stand child that he hasn't been put in and now is brought to second application. I still not fit in the passage of time in four years calls for reassessment at the copies. Assessment I think was done in 2021 some way then.

17:12And well the contestation is private doctor saying he's not fit but it is the assessment and we went into the record. The doctors and whatever when we were supposed to get the verdict and the outcome we're sitting for three years in front of Judge Parlain and she was suspended. And we were kept in hold we were supposed to get another judge who was then supposed to be taking over the matters. Then then when we were caught allocated after that the first thing we hear a fresh assessment. So that was what was confirmed now in July beginning August just this month that has passed. So he should be or will be soon booked back to the copies if that has never happened and we are yet to hear again. The inquiry into the TRC inquiry is unfolding now and it's it's something we need to pay very close attention to because some of the evidence that is emerging there seems to suggest that there was a coordinated attempt to suppress these apartheid atrocities.

18:31Between the apartheid government and the incoming government some some deal was done. In terms of your testimony which happened in February this year I believe. Do you think we have got anywhere towards understanding why this case of truth for your sister has has has taken so so long and been frustrated at every turn. I think that's what that's an unfortunate task that the inquiry is supposed to deal with and I don't want to put the cut before the horse I think they are built to conclude somewhere around December. They have been evidence on both sides or even more sides if you would like to say this department of justice this NPA there's our self-tralata group there's the inquiry itself. There's an interested point is like Afrofora for example.

19:35It's very interesting that the investigator was appointed by the state is now the investigator for Afrofora who I have got no qualms with him he did a good job. He actually had plays there at the end of the list. I've got great respect for him it doesn't start today. It's that long time ago in fact going through the papers at home I was telling him that my father used to keep a small dial for telephone numbers. So Andrew wrote with his own hand in my father's I kept it for his on how my father can contact him for updates. So you went with Afrofora to testify that well I was ready for to lay the charges against I motivated for their suspension these rights and what with the reasons I think it testified some four or five days after me in February still. And that's the reason that's what compelled me is to go to court in 2050.

20:42Not for an inquiry into the 26 it happened to be an unfortunate situation but I will say both dispensation either the older the new they missed an opportunity of forming a good and a better new South Africa. I think that's fair to say yes it's a missed opportunity unfortunately because I mean tears Elliott tells us not every soldier returns home. So I've got no doubt that members of MK up loud whoever they knew how dangerous the circumstances were they knew that potentially I may undertake this mission come back and not come back. And missed opportunity is to reconcile the old with the new and carry a package that will move the country forward absolutely. And the unfortunate part secondly for us as victims was that it was easy both for the old state and the new state to just pinch on us victims continuously.

21:50There is nowhere where there is a sign way there is a concession a giving where the state says or many we think we owe them. You know you will never even get an update you always as a victim have to go around searching looking you will never even be supported legally or even in the means that you are trying to undertake. I mean my mom coming from pedal to Pretoria High Court had to see herself daily if a sitting is for a week no one cares where she sleeps. And she's not special you ask the credo they will tell you the interventions way you know so there is nowhere where somebody said deliberately and said hang on. We might not be owing anything to them.

22:50They are family members chose to fight for the struggle but at least we owe them. Ketesi to arrive at the truth absolutely so there was nothing undertaken everything I mean I remember when the police themselves could see as in them. One of the interlocular applications in my case I actually even joined them was to apply for the state for their legal cost to recover. I think it took us two years also just for that to be dealt with. So in the process between that end the finalization I will not even get a proof from any but it will just be some quietness if you don't exit any pressure. I did get a sense that nothing is just being that that's the unfortunate opportunity that I think it was all missed and I don't want to claim that.

23:55All the actions that mostly emanated from our frustration maybe is justified or is correct in our interpretation but what do we do? I mean in the case of my which I find grossly unfair the parents realize that they've missed the child their child is not back is not pretending. What is the logical thing to do is to say state have lost the child. There's a 1996 socket no one afford you the right as Mr. Smellan had to say you know what no one are long investigating your vote. We're referring a case to the TRC boom you wake up with no understanding no one explaining the closer nothing you're being processed as a number it's in descent it's in human. I think that's and many families will tell you of a tale that is similar. Some even believe us that the case of noctua some may not have had the image that as the young ones look at you myself.

25:06And unfortunately some even those families who for example. There's a story that at some stage it was believed that noctua survived and it was a confusion of a number son don't know the key noctua who had a son and they thought noctua managed to go to exact number son the story and faces the same as noctulas. And she disappeared went to the TRC has never been found has never been buried. But you know what the viciousness of the special branch was because she had a one year old son they took the son and dropped him with no matter what. With no explanation they just said your daughter informed you that she has a son he says yes as they said she said to him as well and that was special branch so they looked for the family. So they couldn't even allow her to carry the responsibility of being a sound mother because that's our brutal system.

26:11So how do we allow no matter what son does mother to raise a child because her without explanation to his grandchild because she also does not have the explanation and the only recourse she had was to go to the TRC. She did she did she gave an outcome and we hangy like that forever she passed. Sure it uh yeah there's so much so much unresolved that we we just haven't even begun to understand. No we haven't scratched the surface. I'm scared of what happens when if maybe the truth might be too shocking for the country to even understand. I accept that also. I met noctulas friends, comrades, some who refuse to talk to me. They will just say, I wish I would be able to explain that to my mother because I'm not asking for a secret.

27:12I've gone away beyond who said they was she sold that that will give me nothing. I've gone way past. The same as well my legal team was telling me that they received a letter with note of complaint that I said, um, uh inquiry I I had even engaged with the alleged perpetrators that I'm even prepared to grant them immunity. And they're saying me saying that such as that I'm finding them wrong or guilty when they haven't. But I'm raising this thing to fold that two visions. Vision A says I let her free and she was killed by the other. I'm saying to both sides, I've let go of that. I'm that I'm not interested who send out. I may know I know whether the intentions was ill or good. What will it give me now? Yeah. Nothing. Right.

28:13Now there is a vision that the other and the judgment of the TRCC says your torture and release is unbelievable. It's in writing has never been taken for review by the very same kutsie and others. This is what I see to it from. I'm saying I'm even prepared to go past what is in black and white handed over to my family that you must be investigated. I can let go of even that investigation. I'll grant you immunity. Tell me what has happened. Sure. Simple and what's so hard. So if it's if there is a grave just so even if you don't accompany me. You know there's a very painful and not provoking sin about the special branch. And I would want you to go and check it. When Pila and Dandela Lillit was being exhumed and dark from a family show as buried.

29:15A group of the special branch people were standing in a corner, they smoking. It was as if it's just an ordinary drinking that is happened. That's how the system broke them. I don't think they are normal also. It is not evil. So you have taken me your mother and everybody. Pila the same as number one. Left a seven months old boy tabangating at the time. So the sisters and everybody have gathered for the first time to know exactly what is happened and they are exhuming in a farm. Where Pila and Dandela are, that's where buried. They are standing in a corner there. They are smoking. I think you can find it on YouTube. Yeah. No. You observe. And I think the cameraman was very trying to show the contradictions. And even forgotten that this is a human being. That's who the system is. Tend them to be. And I feel pity for them. I have met the other side of Afrokenzov, the special branch.

30:17And I've told them where I don't accept their explanation as well. For example, Nomenum Kondzah, he was granted, I'm nasty. I didn't even challenge it. And I'm not about to challenge it today. But I told him, I don't believe you. It's a lie. She says, I didn't know who that the person coming is a woman. Yes, I handed it over. Yes, I was a spy or a devil agent. And the only thing I know is up to her attraction. Sure. And so this is the person who effectively sold her out to you. We sold her out. And that's how she was captured at Carlton Center, with this person. But she thought she was meeting him for MK purposes and then all of us. Yes, yes. Then the police, this one, it set up everything. Now, the TRC had a great deal of, okay, because you were not, why didn't you arrest her? She was carrying papers, no guns, anything. But you had every belief that she is operating illegally.

31:21But there's a police station, why didn't you? So they had already agreed in their own vision that they were going to take her for what we call, in a spy. And we managed to do that and we said, that's their vision. A vision which the TRC says, we're not taking. It has not adapted, it doesn't make sense. But when LISK started the investigation, Gutsi and Friturias and them make it their business to go and look for no minimum cons. To say you are the only one who can save us. Coaching before he goes to the interview. Now, let's say you were honestly really last so many here when I arrived and you have got no idea. And you hear that the police are investigating, why would you look for my drive? Yeah. It makes no sense. So I said to him, look, and he's a pastor now, hey. He's a pastor, he runs a church.

32:21I'm telling you, things I've seen. But he can't. I wish I could. And I said to him, he was asking to see my mother said, I will never, that would be disrespect. I will never take you in front of my mother. Because your story is not true. I just want to relieve yourself. I'm trying to do a documentary on North Korea. So I called him. I asked for an interview. He agreed on proviso that I don't show his face. I said, accept it. Accept it. Give me what I want to hear. Say it on record. I will respect your rights. But you must know. You didn't respect his. Absolutely. But so I'm raising this because there are gifts and takes that are always F2. I mean, the other officers who got amnesty because the judges, and remember I used to be three panels of a set of judges. I mean, they will sit really on a meta and tarar ligate. They granted them amnesty for some way involved only in kidnapping, some way involved both in kidnapping, torture and the action and every end of the court.

33:29But the whole resteps of series. Because the judges felt that they were truthful. I've interviewed one. He still breaks down today. Of what they did to my sister. And I find myself as a contradiction that I have to hug a man who. But I have to hug him and come for tips. Because reality now is donning that what I did in 1983 was bad. So I actually had said to my legal team, everything may be taken away from me. But at least I must be allowed to say how I feel. So if I feel what you are telling me is not truthful, just allow me that. I shouldn't be bombarded with legal juggling to say I believe what Mkonsa said at the TRC that granted him amnesty makes sense. It doesn't. He can go and enjoy his freedom.

34:30Which seemingly he doesn't. He doesn't even want to be sin. That he was closer to the sin. Some of the four who were granted amnesty for four or five refused to be recorded. I asked them, but why are you not granting me? Because you were granted amnesty. And they say for our safety, I'm like, hey, it's so interesting now. Police, you are afraid. J3Tiat, now you are afraid of communication. Sure. No, we don't. Maybe let the inquiry end. We are thinking what came out there is not going to end right. The inquiry, they may be revolting the country and we are afraid for South Africans to know that we are involved in this tour. What else can I do? I said, I respect your rights. Yeah. Because I can't force them. So I've accepted everything that I don't think any normal human being really should have accepted.

35:31Absolutely. Including hugging the enemy. Wow. No, I respect you for that. And your journey to get to the truth is one that is the stuff of four days. There must be a whole movie just about that journey. Tell us about the foundation and what you are building in memory of your sister. You mentioned the documentary, but I know there are various projects that are now putting her memory in the spotlight. I actually owe it to my friends. Really? My friends have always been forcing me to look beyond the legalistic hosting of whom my sister. I always get to see her. I always get to see her. I always get to see her. I always get to see her. But she was declared by a court of law in 2019. I had to meet the requirements. I met the requirements.

36:31So I can walk to home and face now and print it. A journey that my mom still doesn't want to undertake. And I respect that about each other. So I had only been focusing honestly. I had had quite a number of approaches in years. Study foundation. Do this. Do that. I was like, no, man. I need to bear my sister. And I think I realized that this is really a part of Heligasi and his story. It's to find ways of telling it. And maybe not only through my eye. But also through the eyes of others. There are people who have assisted us legally. Who have come across the researchers. There's quite a number of masters in research on the case of nocturnal actually. From various universities, the University of Cape Town, the University and the political science, the last year, a whole project.

37:35Tales of two sisters, what I've been trying to do and one nocturnal stood for. Then I realized that I think they are having a point. One must register this foundation with the sole intention of keeping not only the ligacy of nocturnal, but no matter what. Any other first disappearance case, unresolved TRC meta, that we can be able to say the fire is still burning this site. And we really want to know. And we did that. We put the foundation. We started recognizing jointly with the Bumalanga province. That they've also done quite a number of work. Of course with the family, a statue naming one of their government buildings after her, etc. that we felt that, well, we want to appreciate that as well.

38:36Let's engage the province and say, we are now at the state and we think you have to know. Because we don't want to use the footage. For example, of the building, the footage of the stage. It's not necessarily ours. We appreciate what government has done for her and we would want you to know that we are undertaking this. And the process of that, the concept of the Visi of a university of Bumalanga, they are expanding their political and social school, came forth to the foundation for collaboration. They have an interest of naming one of their schools after a nocturne. And I think that's what propelled really the foundation even to really, really get out of the thinking mode which has taken me two years. Every time my friend will say, hey, when I don't know long, I don't want to talk to you. I can't even accompany you to court because you are fixated into this court thing.

39:38And yes, you must do it, but you must also deal with the foundation. So we have started. We have a lecture day after tomorrow. We have led that President Ramaposa has agreed to offer an inaugural lecture to really launch it at the University of Bumalanga and then the processes of the school and everything else will follow in the years to come. I mean, President Ramaposa has always and not always been from two to three times submissions by friends, comrades for the order of the Visi of a nocturne. And we afforded that as the family, I think in 2025. Wonderful. No, 2024? 23, some way. The family was accorded posumously the order of a nocturne.

40:39So important. The foundation recognized the importance of government as a partner. And that is why I really am saying I am prepared with all the troubles that I faced. I hold no anger. I've passed the stage. I don't want to say it was easy. And with his way, I will cry myself to slip. Anga, bitterness, frustration, sadness, everything combined. Until maybe with time, I had to really be level headed. So I requested on behalf of the foundation that the President accord us that because I'm seeing nocturne providing an opportunity between ourselves as government as well to join in to say the memories of those who passed meta. How can we be able to collaborate as families? But also how can we be able jointly families and government to move beyond even the inquire?

41:45I am hopeful that through the foundation, there are few things that government will be able to appreciate. The OAS and Apology. So I have to ask, and just from a personal perspective, you know, there was a time as Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development, it must have been such an interesting position because on the one hand, you're actually at that, you're kind of the most powerful person in a way or one of the most powerful people in the system that has failed you. What was that like? Time will tell. There will be stories that needs to be told in the episode of really why that Justice story in the department. But I'm fine with it. Do you think there's a link between the two? Oh, there is. I think there was a bit of some really uncomfortable of what could and what could not.

42:55And there there is this inquire and there is this person who's in court. It was going to be a huge contradiction, actually. At some stage, I was going to be taking myself to court. Because there is such justice. So on the one hand side, I'm saying to myself, oh yeah, I'm going to be in court. So the good thing will do that. It's good for you. Yeah, if you say names. Wow. But on the one hand side, I'm saying it is good for me. It has also, I think there will be mechanisms in government that would have had to delegate to the deputy minister for example, or even ask the president to delegate that portion of the function to another capable minister to run with the issues or even him handling it himself directly. But why that complication? But I can also record that according to families and friends, actually, even families of the affected. There's a part of me which they feel that I need to respond as guilty.

43:59My cousins asked me, tell me, you have not come across anything which says, where is your sister? We believe you are hiding it from us. My mom says it. She says, I was in bed. What happened to my daughter? So it's understandable. It's a thought that everyone believes that when you sit in a cabinet table or in a round table, you can access any other door. You can open it. Sure. We lean nearly. There are no processes, there are no systems. And precisely because there has always been, which I believe has been a missed opportunity for the ANC to also tell its story. In the court papers, in the records, in the inquiry, the ANC is always cited as having agreed, as having a habit, some 37.

44:59Whether or not anything has never come out strongly to say, do we know or do we not know this? Sadly, come register passed after myself and look at you. We met him. We were, we took ourselves to the Tully House. We said, we are the children of the ANC. We may be assumed to be against the ANC. But we just want to unpack who are we as victims. And how do we feel? It was a bit very rough meeting. And comrades in the AC may have all the rest in peace. Handled us so well. Appreciate it, our anger. If you actually asked the Black Lawyers Association, because she was hearing it for the first time that we were propone and we're carrying ourselves legal. She wrote to the Black Lawyers Association trying to amass a team. She met with our foundation for human rights legal team trying to bring the ANC jointly into joining the victims.

46:07Sadly, come register passed. And the ANC poll was dropped again. We hope we pick it up. There's a work that has started again, that is being done. The unfortunate part is that it's work happening years after. And it is work happening at the back foot of the families having to stand up for themselves. And action I don't doubt what I don't like is that we, and I always caution that we also as a victims, whether part of the Kalatakrop or not, is that we also have to understand that yes, we are victims. We are old and explanation. I believe we are old and up and up. And we also have to remember that the ultimate reason why noctula and others joined the struggle was for deliberation.

47:15And deliberation was not about voting only. So I must not stand between your right of you receiving a house and I'm making an example of a house because that's what ultimately. He sacrificed leg to a constitution which guarantees you as a South African access to staying where you want to stay. Sure. Because I think we have a potential of missing again and going back to the past and upgrade that myself included. We need to be able to assist the country to navigate ultimately to why Steve Bigodite. It was for a African to be a dignified human. So we can't say today with all the wrongs that we appreciate has been has happened that we forget and put that at the end of the pen. And when I'm in the group, I say that with cautiousness because they are like, hey, you want us to forgive and forget.

48:17No, no, no, no, no. I tried to create that balance because we also carry that responsibility of not making it as if now you owe because we are liberated. You owe me. It's very important to create that balance and I don't want to claim that that balance is easy. There's no manual for our grief. There's no manual for our pain whenever I thought how to handle it. The foundations and many other minnkhir cbande is a foundation that they are starting was assisting in Swaziland. Elias Maslella is starting to foundation. The Swaziland people will tell you there was one old woman called Kama Kok who used to receive everyone who was coming from South Africa. And was a Swazil National. I think he house was in house number 43. There's no one who has been to Swaziland who doesn't know house number 43 or 47. And I just believe that the story of how the ANC in particular survived either in Maputo.

49:20You'll find that the words are not a house in Maputo or in Zimbabwe or in Swaziland or in the Soto or anywhere else has never been told. Absolutely. To the benefit of my daughter understanding the sacrifice and marrying it with the future that is supposed to be prosperous for her. And I believe that's what the sacrifice of nook to lie and many others needs to lead to. The foundation is trying to say, here I am. I'm a Kenypik. Others will see what I see others may not see it but what at least I intend to establish is a table where all of us stakeholders, civil society, civil society, legalists and everybody can realize that the metters of the jersey are beyond legalities. But they are about humanity. Do you think that there were people, what is being hidden?

50:20That's what I don't understand. What is it that is so so explosive? That families like yours have to go through this pain. Sahandak Itali da getan, terceor hiwara plantaka yda si Thisир eれて esat gayo na climbing akeld Hostairitect

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