Mohammed Idris, Nigeria’s Information Minister: Stopping militant attacks

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Hello, I'm Victoria O'Hunder, BBC presenter.

And this is the interview from the BBC World Service,

the best conversations coming out of the BBC.

People shipping our world from all over the world.

If you're not a little bit afraid, then you're not paying attention.

You have never seen a people so united.

Do not make that boat crossing. Do not make that journey.

Being born in America, feeling American,

having people treat me like I'm not.

We're more popular than populism.

For this interview, I met Muhammad Idris, Nigeria's information minister

while he was on a visit to London.

Nigeria is Africa's most popular country

and one of its largest economies.

But it's also grappling with deep challenges

from a rise in deadly militant attacks

to the question of how to create opportunities

for a young and fast growing population.

In recent years, more and more young professionals

have been living Nigeria,

heading abroad in search of better opportunities.

Concerns have been raised about a growing brain drain

and whether the country is losing the very people

it needs to build its future.

The reform agenda of Mr. President

is copying this issue of brain drain

for the medical industrialization

by the health sector, for example.

It depends on all the pharmaceutical companies

just import their products into Nigeria.

But now we have a stronger policy

that will compel them to also set up

these manufacturing plants in Nigeria

so that they can create jobs for our young men and women

to participate in that sector.

And I think once industrialization take hold

it will be necessary that we have people

stay more at home than going out of the country.

And indeed, we see young Nigerian people

working in the fine tech and making waves around the world.

So I believe that with industrialization

with emphasis being put in certain of more factories in Nigeria,

more Nigerian young men and women will be there

and those who have traveled outside this country

may find it necessary to combat.

Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service

with Mohammed Idris.

From your government's point of view,

where are the main challenges

if you could just pick up three of the main challenges

where President Tinnibu and his government

of which you're a part of are working to make sure

that you reach those goals

that you make life better for Nigerians.

First and foremost is to ensure that

we return security to our country.

Of course, this didn't start with the administration.

It's nearly two decades old

that we have criminal elements

wrecking havoc on some communities

and also bringing soccer to people using these reforms.

Because if you look at what detention

that exists between farmers and hudders

that in turn create this kind of a problem,

these are all being eased.

President Tinnibu has for the first time in our history

created the Ministry of Life,

developed for example,

is a multi-trillion-nara sector

that has been on top and is working

seriously to ensure that this helps in easing

some of these pressures.

The economy, agriculture for example,

is also being worked on.

The government is spending a lot of money

to reposition the sector.

The dry season farming is also being encouraged.

A lot of farming inputs and implements

and other implement that are required

to make agriculture rarely very attractive

because that's the main driver of our economy anyway.

The government is putting a lot of money

and paying a lot of attention in that direction.

Let's take security.

It's a huge, sadly, issue for Nigeria and Nigeria,

especially in the North.

In the North East, as you mentioned,

it's been ongoing, especially with Boko Haram,

the militants' group since 2009, I believe.

So it's quite a long time.

We've just seen yet another attack

in my degree on Monday, 23 people,

hundreds cause of others injured.

What is your government doing to make sure

that Nigerians go to sleep,

that they can break their fast, knowingly,

that they are not going to be attacked,

that they're not going to lose their limbs or lives,

that mothers can know that their children are coming home.

Well, it's a sad one.

First, my heart goes out to those who lost loved ones

and those who are injured.

It's really a very bad scene for our country,

but if you know, may degree very well,

you know that we have managed to have peace

in that part of the country over the years,

that we were really not taken aback

that this has happened at this time.

Medigree used to be a bit problematic,

security-wise, years ago,

but government has been able to stabilize that city

and that part of the country.

When this was reported,

President Bola Mejnibu directed all the service chiefs

to move to Medigree,

all the security agents are paying

renewed attention in that area.

And just before that,

the president spent a lot of money

for the purchase of weapons

that can be used to fight this violent extremist.

You know, we know that there are also the other part

of religious extremists who are using the porous nature

of our borders and the problem in the Sahel,

creating this tension.

But security is not just one country issue,

it has no borders.

I mean, violent extremism has no borders.

Rightly so you say that the attacks

and insurgency by Boko Haram had kind of diminished since 2015.

So much work had been put,

but you also say that you were taken aback by this attack

when 23 people lost their lives in Medigree.

Did the intelligence services of Nigeria fail?

Well, I don't think they failed.

I think that more work need to be done.

If you know Medigree,

Medigree has largely become very, very peaceful.

They know the eastern part of the country.

Once or point of time.

Still managed to come to the post office,

the same managed to come to the market.

Yes, it's so unfortunate that that has happened.

But indeed, the Nigerian security agents are working

around the clock to ensure that this does not happen again.

I mean, we don't want to see people being attacked.

We don't want to see people, you know,

denied sleep as a result of the activities of these criminals

and religious extremists that are, you know,

intelligence sharing is key in defying against terrorism

and this kind of criminal insurgency.

And so we need to fight and work together.

So, Nigeria will work with our original partners,

we'll work with others to bring peace to,

to not just Nigeria, but the entire region.

Speaking of these partnerships that you have,

especially with the United States,

we saw President Trump saying that he was sending in

some help, some military help,

talk us through about what that looks like.

What is it that the Nigerian government, the Nigerians,

that you are looking for from the Americans,

hacking their help, the country, the government,

fight all these insurgencies?

I think they are already doing that.

You recall that, you know, in four or five weeks before now,

the American government in partnership, of course,

with Nigerian authorities sent in some personnel,

some military personnel, with some intelligence sharing

capability and with some expertise and some technical equipment

to help us to locate where these criminals are,

so that we can fight them.

But this will lead by the Nigerian security agencies

is not as if the American government is just coming to do

on its own.

It's a partnership that we are forging.

And the Nigerian is open.

We have always said that it's open to that kind of partnership,

not just with the US, with the U.K.,

but anybody that can provide the help.

Terrorism everywhere means that there is no safety anywhere.

So we need to work together to ensure that

we read our community, our country,

you know, our region and the entire world of this criminality.

Concretely, what is it that the Americans have offered Nigeria?

Well, first, they are helping us to intelligence,

gathering, improving our intelligence capability

to get some of these intelligence on the activities and movement

of these criminals.

They are also helping us to get some military equipment

that will help us to locate and track down these terrorists

so that they don't create havoc, you know, in our soil.

And I think broadly, these are some of those things

that we are doing together.

Is there a new worry from your government or from yourself,

Mr. Minister, that the language that is coming from

the Trump administration, especially President Trump,

saying that Christians are the ones who are targeted constantly

when data has shown that it's basically all Nigerians

who live in the North and the North East.

Is there a worry that this could be enticing in a way

that it could just divide Nigerians even furthermore?

We are encouraged to live this rhetoric behind

and forge this even more partnership with the United States of America

the fact that some officials of the US and the Congress

and the US administration were in Abuja

to discuss this with our Nigerian officials.

It's an indication that there's a deeper cooperation,

deeper partnership that is being forged.

We want to say that Nigeria, as we have always said,

is a multi-fade country.

It's a country that, you know, tolerates a religious freedom

there is no any official declaration or position

on any particular religion in our country.

Christians, Muslims and even those who don't believe in anything,

you know, are free to live and practice

whatever is their fate in our country.

In any case, this is in Shrine, our Constitution.

There's nothing anybody can do about it.

All the officials, we have Christians, we have Muslims,

we have everyone in our government.

So we're emphasizing that because this is exactly where

this theory is going to drive us to.

So we need to understand the complexities

and the drivers of this conflict.

We shouldn't allow them to make it look like Nigerians

are divided among themselves, Christian, Muslim,

and then taking off amongst each other.

That is not the case.

And we're fighting, you know, common enemy

and all of us, you know, have to come together

to ensure that we fight them out once and for all.

Have you sent that message back to President Trump

in the Oval Office, the direct trick?

You don't want direct trick needs to stop?

Well, we don't want to be going for them back on that.

I think what is important is that

he sent officials to Nigeria, some of our officials

were in the United States.

We want to believe that there's now a deeper understanding

by the American government on the complex situation,

a complex security situation that we face in Nigeria.

You're listening to the interview from the BBC World Service.

Mohammed Idris and I meet in a bustling area

of the sixth, four of the BBC headquarters in London

where Mike's supporting place and we slot into our respective roles.

A minister and an interviewer, my notebook and pen are the ready.

A minister and an interviewer, my notebook and pen are the ready.

But no water or tea or coffee for either of us

because it's Ramadan and we are both fasting.

But while I will break my fast at my desk a few flows below

letter that evening, Mr. Idris will be having a royal feast

for his iftar at Windsor Palace hosted by King Charles

and his family.

More on that letter.

Do think a quickly noticed when Mr. Idris and I meet

is his calm elegance and quiet authority without it being

too overwhelming, especially considering his height,

a tall lean man with an easy smile and a firm handshake.

He struck me as someone who's learned how to be at ease with

himself as well as those in his presence.

He observes and he listens and I was surprised he was one of

those politicians, not that evasive at answering questions.

Like for example, when I asked him point blank.

If his government and security forces had failed to stop the attack

by Boko Haram militants.

Okay, let's return to my conversation with Mohammed Idris.

Let's pivot and look at what is happening now in the Middle East.

The Iran war.

Nigeria is a very big oil producer on the continent.

I believe it's the biggest.

And we are seeing oil prices go up.

How much of what is happening in the Middle East as we speak to you now,

Mr. Minister, is going to affect Nigeria and the Nigerian economy?

Well, we ask Nigerians, we are all those deseros,

joining hands with people all over the world.

The economy is all over the world to ensure energy security for,

not just for Nigeria, but for the world.

What is happening in Iran, I think is hitting up the economy,

so to say, and creating some shocks within the economy.

Not just that of Nigeria, but around the world.

And as we can see, but what we are praying for and hoping for

and preaching for is that we should have de-escalation in the conflict in the region.

Diplomacy should take root.

We believe that dialogue is the best answer to any kind of situation we find ourselves.

But Nigeria will always play its part to ensure that there's energy security

for people around the world.

That is what we are committed to.

But as an oil producing country, you will think,

if it's not going well for somebody, we've got something.

Are you having those kind of conversations of how you can help push some of your oil

to the rest of the world?

Nigeria is ever ready to contribute to energy security around the world.

Whatever Nigeria can do to help is tension.

Nigeria will, of course, do that.

But I think the best will be to have de-escalation

and to have dialogue, take a center stage in order to ensure that energy security

is further guaranteed for everyone around the world.

But what are you putting in place to make sure that you can mitigate

the hits that Nigerians might meet if this war carries on for further more?

As you know, our domestic refining capacity has improved significantly,

meaning that we can, we refine more oil than we used to

with the private sector participation, especially with the Dango-Terry Finery,

now fully operational.

And other modular refineries around the country that are also upcoming

and, of course, some are on their way to also being established.

So because of the policy that we are putting in place to encourage the private sector

to improve our domestic refining capacity,

our position in terms of oil production and storage is a lot better.

And that, certainly, will help in mitigating whatever problem that we have.

We no longer need to import all the fuel that we used to have now to have.

So, in the Nigerian produce oil, but beyond that, we are also exporting.

And we will continue to do that to mitigate this where we are necessary.

We don't want to be seen as a country, as taken advantage of anything,

but what is important is that we will continue to contribute our quota,

to play our part to ensure stability, not just in terms of oil prices,

but also economic stability for everyone globally.

I think we have that responsibility to do that.

Nigeria will certainly play its part.

In this domestic refinery oil capacities that you said have been developed

and continue to develop, how much of that is also being put into looking at the oil and fuel theft

because it happens quite a lot, which is quite a huge loss in terms of the Nigerian economy.

Well, Nigerian government has been fighting that over time

and we have seen significant improvement since the administration of President Bola.

It's not yet completely solved, but I think we have seen remarkable improvement

in the way oil theft is being copped, especially in the Niger Delta region.

I think the coming on board of these private refineries is also helping to ensure that this happens.

I think the theft has been significantly reduced.

It is still there, but we walk even further to ensure that

the Nigerian oil is not taken away by any criminal to be sold somewhere.

Nigerians often talk about the issue of brain drain, especially in sectors like IT,

health, nurses and doctors and tech.

What is it that the Nigerian government that would view it as a part of

can do to make sure that less people find it worth staying home for

and do instead of going further short to look for greener pastures?

I think it's already happening.

The reform agenda of Mr. President is copying this issue of brain drain.

The medical industrialization pursued by the health sector, for example,

in the past, all the pharmaceutical companies just import the products into Nigerian.

But now we have a stronger policy that will compel them to also set up

these manufacturing plants in Nigeria so that they can create jobs for people

and provide more opportunities for our young men and women to participate in that sector.

And then I think once industrialization take hold,

it will be necessary that we have people staying more at home than going out of the country.

Already, the government is working on electricity, which is a major component of industrialization.

Only recently, the president has milled the idea of setting up a company

to work in the electricity sector to ensure that we have better electricity

for our people because this is absolutely necessary for you to industrialize

and President Bola, I mentioned, having fixed the economy in the way our money has done,

having also working hard to ensure the security for everyone.

The next phase is industrialization and this is where we are going.

This certainly will help to curb brain brain and attract more people to come to Nigeria.

And indeed, you see young Nigerian people working in the fine-tech

and making waves around the world here in the UK as well.

So I believe that with industrialization, with emphasis,

being put in setting up more factories in Nigeria,

more Nigerian young men and women will be there and those who have traveled outside this country

may find it necessary to come back. We have already seen that in the health sector.

You paint a wonderful picture of what you are doing, what you are wanting to achieve.

And I hope that Nigerians be young and old looking and hearing you will think,

well, we have gotten somewhere.

Would that be assessment that they will be thinking this government has done better than the others

that have come before you?

Obviously so. I think that they know that already and there is this expectation

that President Boyle amateur who is going to do even a lot more to make Nigerians better.

Prosperity is what the President has promised Nigerians when he took office.

And I think Nigeria is only much towards that prosperity that the President promised.

We are on our way there and we will get there.

And you are sure that he can win another time if and when those promises are fulfilled

that the Nigerians will give him yet again the trust to lead them.

Well, if you have a good football team that is winning,

I mean, nobody will want to change it.

I wish you don't because you're not going to the World Cup.

So it's a ring that up.

Yeah, but you know, we believe that we have a team that is working hard.

We have a government that is delivering on its publicity to its people.

We are absolutely confident that Nigerians will renew President Boyle amateur who was banded

because he's done so much in about three years, less than three years now.

He's going to do really every more when his time is renewed. We are very hopeful.

Thank you for listening to the interview.

You'll find more in-depth conversations on the interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts,

including episodes with Ukraine's President Volodymyl Zelensky

and Antonio Gutierrez, Secretary-General of the United Nations, plus many more.

Until next time, bye for now.

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