Murder In Moscow: Kohberger's Legal Team Brings Aboard A Genealogist To Challenge The DNA Evidence

0:00Hi, this is Dave Roberts. Heading into summer without a medical emergency kit, that's a risk. Summer colds can linger and getting sick on vacation can derail everything. That's why everyone needs a medical emergency kit. It includes Dr. prescribed medications to treat common and serious illnesses. So if you wake up sick, at home or on the road, you already have what you need. It's like having an urgent care and pharmacy at home. Say $45 with code blue at urgentcarekit.com slash blue urgent care kit.com slash blue. What's up everyone and welcome back to the program.

1:06Brian Coburger and his legal team have brought on a genealogist. And according to this genealogist named Lea Larkin, the DNA evidence that's been provided by the prosecution is not as strong as they'd like you to believe. Now we have to take everything Lea Larkin says with a grain of salt as well. Remember she's been hired to do a job here. She's been hired as a witness for the defense and she's going to do her best to try and poke holes in what the prosecution has come up with. And that's exactly what she's trying to do in this filing. And as we have seen many times before, it's all going to come down to a battle of the experts. Which experts do the jury believe more? Which experts come with a better narrative about what happened? And where does the truth lie? That is what's really going to matter when all is said and done. And Brian Coburger's team, well, they're bringing in the genealogist and they're hoping that this genealogist is able to sway the jury towards their version of events.

2:16So let's get to this article from the Daily Mail and let's see what Germania Rodriguez Polio has come up with. Headline Brian Coburger Update. Genealogist hired by defense cast out on the reliability of genetic genealogy in Idaho murder's investigation. The lawyers for Idaho murder suspect Brian Coburger have put forward testimony by a genealogist that cast out on the reliability of genetic genealogy, which investigators used to arrest them. So their whole entire line of thinking here is, let's go after the testing method, let's go after how this DNA was put through the system. And what do we call that kids? That's right. Loop holes and technicalities. Those are the tools of the guilty. When you're innocent, you don't need to use loop holes. You don't need technicalities. Do you know why? Because you have the evidence on your side.

3:18And none of these people that we talk about, Brian Coburger or Alex Murdoch or Lori Valow or Galen Maxwell, none of them have had the truth on their side. So when they go into court and they try and provide these experts and their expert opinions, well, they get absolutely chomped up by what the prosecution has because the prosecution witnesses aren't just showing up with their opinion. They're showing up with these little pesky things called facts. And that's what the jury wants to hear, not the what could have been's, not the what ifs. And they certainly don't want to hear that it was slender man who committed these murders. The jury is not going to take that very well. They're going to look at all of these facts. They're going to look at everything that's been provided and they're going to know the BES from the real detectives relied on genetic genealogy to build their case against the 28 year old as they use the method to build a DNA profile from the DNA left on a knife sheath at the scene.

4:23And then match that profile to co burgers dad before his arrest. Their contention is that the methods that were used, well, they're not methods that are solid and that there can be errors when you're getting DNA profiles. And while that might be the case, I highly doubt the buccal swab that was taken from Brian co burger is incorrect. Okay. And that's why they went after the buccal swab. Not only was it the touch DNA on the knife sheath, but they got that buccal swab from Brian co burger the night he was arrested. Unlike Rex Euriman, where they had to go and get a court order to get that buccal swab. That was all part of the warrant when they kicked in co burgers door and caught him in his draws with some rubber gloves on hanging out sort and trash. While prosecutors claim they match DNA from the sheath directly to co burger after he was arrested, they first used genetic genealogy and his defense has so far focused on scrutinizing the process used by investigators to collect evidence and build the DNA profile.

5:30Arguing it could have been flawed or unconstitutional. Loop holes, technicalities for those of you who aren't paying attention, that's exactly what they mean here. It's not look we have evidence that proves Brian co burger's innocent. Oh, we have a witness that can corroborate his alibi. Oh, no, no, no, no, it's loop holes and technicalities. In their latest attempt to request the data and methods used by the investigators to match the DNA evidence to co burger, the defense team filed an affidavit on Wednesday by Dr. Leah Larkin an expert on the subject from California. And I already have that episode recorded and I'll have it uploaded at some point today. I wanted to talk about the actual article first and then will upload the document in our affidavit seen by the Daily Mail.com, Larkin argues DNA profiles built by at home test companies such as 23 and me and ancestry DNA are not constructed the same as those by specialized laboratories and are not as reliable.

6:38Now that would carry more weight with me if they didn't have the buccal swab already from his cheek once they got that buccal swab and the buccal swab matched up with everything else. I think that all of this is just them spinning their wheels in neutral looking for a way to punch a hole in what the prosecution is done so that they can get the whole entire case thrown out on a that's right technicality. A poor quality kit might have too few matches or it just might have phantom matches that are not real measures of relationship the document reads. Larkin notes that sites such as ancestry DNA 23 and me and my heritage prohibit forensic investigative genetic genealogy in their databases, but there isn't really a way to enforce it. In the absence of an effective oversight forensic genetic genealogies are on the honor system to obey the terms of services and the department of justices in our own policy on forensic genetic genealogy.

7:41So in layman's terms they're saying that the company that gave up this information did so illegally did so without following the parameters that are set out by the justice department and their own terms of service. So that's a pretty big allegation and they're going to have to prove it. Now you could say whatever you want in these court filings, but after you put it into the court document, the judge and the jury, they're going to expect you to prove what you're talking about. So they better be able to bring the thunder with these allegations. Larkin explains that the science used by these sites is not perfect and any given sent a Morgan amount can represent more than one possible relationship. She notes one example that has nearly 20 possible relationship lines listed for a match and says that's considered a close match. Larkin points out that unlike DNA tests that find an individual which are standard forensic STR tests genetic genealogy testing identifies possible relatives.

8:47She then goes on to note cases she's allegedly aware of where genetic genealogy has been wrong, as well as cases where the databases were used and properly by authorities. Look, there's no doubt that law enforcement investigators prosecutors sometimes they cross the line and when they cross that line, they have to be slapped very hard in my opinion because the state has so much power to throw somebody in prison that everything they do has to be above board. Larkin be no missteps, no half steps and no nonsense because if there is, well, it's going to be all bad for the person who's being accused and remember just because somebody's accused, it doesn't make them guilty. We might all think Brian co burgers guilty, but until he is proved to be guilty in a court of law, he's an innocent man. So the prosecution has to tow the line, they have to make sure that they're walking the right path and they're not doing anything that could give somebody like Brian co burger wiggle room to get off on a technicality.

9:56The FBI tracked down co burger by tracing his distant relatives through genetic genealogy databases and then secretly collected a sample of his father's DNA to confirm his identity. They make that sound like some cloaking dagger shit, but that's not the case. They did a trash grab. So what happens is if you put your trash bins out in front of your house, there's no more possession of that trash that trash is now free game. Anyone can come by and look in your trash can the second you put it out on the curb and what's more, people can go into that trash can and take whatever they want. That includes the police. They do not need a search warrant once you have thrown something out on the flip side of that. If your trash cans are on your property, they cannot go through them without a warrant. So there certainly was no constitutional rights that were stepped on when the authorities arrested Brian co burger and when they went through his trash, that was all above board. And that's just how it goes when you're trying to nail somebody on something like this kind of the same way they got Rex, you were men, right, the bottles out of the trash, the pizza crust, the DNA on the crust, yada yada yada.

11:08The point is this is how technology works now. And if you're going to be a criminal and you think you're going to get away with it, I have news for you. Eventually, your ass is going to get nailed. It's fall in Jeep country and during the driving to fall sales events get a great deal on four by fours that refuse to be contained like Jeep Wrangler, confidence built into every drive with the most awarded SUV ever Jeep Grand Cherokee and freedom that can't be denied with the open air freedom and Jeep gladiator. After 85 years, it's no surprise that Jeep became America's SUV brand get a great deal during the Jeep driving to fall sales event Jeep is one more awards over its lifetime than any other SUV brand cheap and the Jeep grill register trademark CFC US LLC. Police say DNA found on a knife sheath left at the Idaho murder scene is a statistical match to a cheek swab taken from the suspect after his arrest. A sample of DNA left on the sheath is at least 5.37 octillion times more likely to be seen if the defendant is the source than if an unrelated individual randomly selected from the general population is the source.

12:18Prosecutors said in the filing so that's very hard to argue with 5.37 octillion times more likely. I'm certainly not a mathematician, but that seems like an enormous number. Co burger had no criminal record, which means his DNA was not in any law enforcement database genetic genealogy is an increasingly popular and useful method of investigation where law enforcement traces suspects relatives on ancestry websites. I can never commit a crime forget it if I left DNA at the scene I definitely get nailed you know why well I have several relatives who are encoders because they've been to prison so your boy would get nailed right away and that's just the way of it these days. You never know what kind of relative you have out there that's uploaded their DNA and you're out here committing all these crimes thinking you're going to get away with it well eventually they're going to nail your ass. And how are they going to nail your ass well with this DNA with all of this new technology that's how when DNA is found at the scene of a crime that does not belong to the victims the first thing police do is run it through their own database to check if it matches the DNA of any previous offenders.

13:37This process is referred to as a short tandem repeat str comparison and test the sample against 20 DNA markers enough to identify the person if their own DNA is already in the system or in some cases if the DNA of an immediate relative is in the system e.g. apparent or a sibling. If both strike out investigators have to look to genetic genealogy to perform a wider search for more distant relatives. Unlike police DNA databases those of commercial genealogy companies can search for up to 1 million DNA markers using single nucleotide polymorphisms not STRs creating a much wider pool of relatives to sift through and it's kind of like fishing. If you're using a poll well you're going to catch one fish but if you use a net chances are you're going to catch more than one right so you cast a wide net here and you look to see how many matches there are in these databases.

14:40While there are many commercial ancestry websites only to allow law enforcement to search their databases openly gd match and family tree DNA. Once a suspect is nailed down a genealogical investigators turn their findings over to the police. Undercover or covert teams then follow the suspect and surreptitiously obtain a sample from them in order to compare it to the sample found at the crime scene that was used in the DNA tracing. Co-berger is accused of stabbing to death, students Ethan Chapin, Madison Mogen, Zanna Kernotal and Kayleigh Gonsalvis in Moscow, Idaho on November 13th, 2022. Detectives found the K-Bar knife sheath on the bed with the bodies of Mogen and Gonsalvis, the sheath was partially under Mogen's body and the comforter on the bed according to court documents filed on June 16th and therein lies the biggest problem for brats.

15:42The biggest problem for Brian co-berger and his team, this knife sheath being there at the scene of the crime under the body of Madison Mogen, how do you explain that? How do you explain that to a jury? They have no explanation, so you're going to see them rely on loopholes and technicalities because you can explain the unexplainable. Investigators later closely matched the DNA on the sheath to DNA found in trash cans taken from co-berger's parents home in Pennsylvania where he was arrested in December of 2022. The bodies of the students were found out a rental home across the street from the University of Idaho campus. The slangs shocked the rural Idaho community and neighboring Pullman Washington where co-berger was a graduate student study in criminology at Washington State University. Co-berger is being held at LaTaw County Jail in Moscow, Idaho on first degree murder and burglary charges. His trial is set to begin on October 2nd. He has pled not guilty and faces the death penalty.

16:49Alright, so this is exactly what you should expect moving forward folks. Brian co-berger's team is going to try and challenge all of the hard evidence that's been found and filed with the court. The question is, are they going to be able to challenge it successfully? And from what we're looking at so far, they have a long way to go before they get to that point. Alright folks, that's going to do it for this one. All of the information that goes with this episode can be found in the description box.