Nancy Guthrie: Contradictions, a Sheriff's Disputed Record, and an Investigation That Keeps Raising Questions

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stories we're covering for you at the Hidden Killers Podcast and True Crime Today.

This is Hidden Tillers Live with Tony Brusky and Robin Dree.

Let's move over to another case that obviously we've been talking about quite a bit.

There's not a ton of things that are new in this but there's still a lot of questions

that are coming in. We are damn near 50 days now. No suspect name of the Nancy Guthrie

disappearance. No arrests. The doorbell footage of the masked man at her front door is still

the only image investigators have publicly released. A new camera footage recovered

apparently this week from her property apparently shows not much. listeners,

the guys have been sending in questions about this all weeks. We're going to try and get to

some of those. If you got some in the live while we're doing this, please drop them and we will try

to get to them in Todd. If there's anything that stands out, you want to jump in here that you're

seeing in the comments. I can't read them very well because they're over there. I got them right next

me too. You got them too. Okay. So let's start with this first one because it's driving me insane

investigators are now specifically asking neighbors about January 11th and January 24th. Both

weekends, both weeks before she was taken. Robin, if the FBI is zeroing in on those specific

dates, what does that tell you about what they think happened? Because that sounds like they're

building a surveillance timeline on a suspect. What do you make that they're zeroing in, you know,

at least asking questions of residents of specific dates? Yeah. I literally covered this this

morning. So I've been doing even more research. You know, me and Mike. Yeah. Crazy research. So

in here's the numbers in roughly 70 to 80% of home invasion cases, the residents have

has been staked out in advance. And typically what they're staking out is security systems.

So let's do our thought experiment. In those cases where they got new still images of that

and video, I think of that same person it looks like just minus the gun and the holster on those

dates. Again, looking very casual front door, moving around, no sense of urgency and most notably

no reaction. So I said to myself, place myself in a situation. If everyone else that's listening

to and in watching, if you have a ring cam or an S cam or something, what typically happens

is someone's on your front step. It goes off. You hear, you hear the chime inside. And when you hear

that, what you'd expect to see, because we have kids that run across our driveway in the middle

night or something like that, they're playing and when they hear it, you see a reaction. When we

have an animal in my driveway that triggers it, they stop and they hear a reaction. So what we

didn't see from this guy was a reaction to a chime, something going off. And so what what

perpetrators will do is they're going to stake out locations and test for security systems. So

I think they are then zeroing in on recambition in neighborhood because his behavior says he's

done this before. A lot of people have said it looks like he's done it before. Has anyone else

seen behavior like this on the ring cams, on the Ness cams anywhere within like one to 300 mile

radius because this is going to be a repeated pattern of them testiness. It happens all time.

The other thing too, we only know what we're being presented in the public. And so all my

observations on my theories, whether it was targeted for Nancy or targeted for something,

an object in that house comes from what's being presented to the audience, you know us in general

public. But when you analyze everything, typically when you're staking out and testing pre entry,

testing pre all these things, it looks like they're testing location. If it's targeted for robbery,

they test locations. If it's targeted for individual, they're staking out individuals.

Now she was definitely doing a pattern. She did go to dinner at her at her daughters and

son-in-law's house every Saturday. So that is very, very consistent.

Taria for burglars, I know some people have said why not go and go into this house of its

burglary when she wasn't home and at these things. The stats on this say they will even though

the house might be empty during the day when she's out at a family or friends, if it's daylight

during that time period, they're always, not always typically burglars, about 80% of time are going

to go at late hours after night when they're when they're short of not being observed by neighbors

by other ring cams, things like that. So it fits that pattern. If that's what we're doing. And the

other thing too, that was a new kind of new that we haven't talked about too much. And that is the

sheriff, the crazy sheriff who's now under trying to get recalled. And you did a good piece on

sub-sac on that, the likelihood is a little slow. It's so slim, yeah. But I analyzed his statement

because we're, his statement about, I don't, I didn't have the exact language, but I lived it up.

The statement about saying for the public to be on alert that there's still a threat out there,

his actual language he used was language that used if they suspect it as a burglary,

not as an abduction. I compared it to Elizabeth smarts things. There was like three or four other

cases where I looked at sheriff's language where they put a warning out to the public. His was not

congruence with the language put out if he believes it was an abduction. So 80%. And so again,

I'm just looking at data points of what. Yeah. And the sheriff, and it kind of leads us to the

next question. The sheriff had said that the suspect could absolutely strike again. And then

his own department puts out a statement saying there's no updated public safety risk in the same week.

Context is important. And I think because we go into the statement of he could absolutely strike

again, that's, that's going to be colored by what you view, what each individual views as the

goal of this person, porch guy, was he there to abduct? If you're seeing that and you think,

oh, he was there to abduct her, he could absolutely strike again. You're, you're taking that and

going, oh, he could absolutely kidnap someone again and take them or he could absolutely go

burglarize somebody's home and hope to God that it doesn't turn out again where somebody has to

go missing. With that being said, if someone, if this is their lifestyle, if this is their

MO, this is how they, they provide in in their own minds for their family or themselves,

by if it is a burglar stealing. And then something happened and they had to get rid of the evidence

being Nancy. What are the, I don't know, I don't know if there are odds or stats on this. But what do

you think about the idea that they're, they might be back out there burglarizing homes again. I

mean, just because this one went wrong and it hasn't been solved and maybe the body is gone and

they'll never be found. Does that make them take a step back and go, I'm done burglarizing homes.

That one really got me and we had to get rid of a body. I think what I'm going to do anymore,

I'm going to go work at the pomada. I don't think that that is necessarily how that sort of

brain functions. But what do you think the stats are? The odds are that this person, if this was

a burglary gone wrong and Nancy somehow got mixed into it, Nancy's gone now that they're not already

back out there doing their burglar thing. It really depends on what the intent was. If they're intent

to burglarize was because they have a certain need, they need to satisfy their, in their lives for

some monetary gain for something and that needs been met and there's no need to burglarize again

and the risk outweighed the reward. Remember, fears are greatest motivator and if they fear more

than they crave, then they're not going to do it anytime soon, depending if they're addicted to it

or not because that plays into it as well, obviously. And just think of in terms of, because you

brought up the word, you know, the sheriff did about threats and having abductions again. Well,

if she was a targeted abduction for Nancy herself, well, there's no other Nancy's out there,

so where's the threat? If it was for retribution against Nancy or Savannah in some way and she's

out of the picture, so where's the threat? Again, no leakage in any other ways on that. So if we have

a targeted burglary, could this individual potentially definitely a burglar again because they have

in the past? Yes. And also think about this too, if it was targeted for abduction of Nancy, particularly,

why do you look so fluid like he's done this before? There's only one Nancy. So see what I mean,

the things kind of fall apart in these things. Again, not conclusive, but you just look at the data

that we're seeing. That's why the language, the behaviors, again, I am completely on board with

that house was targeted for something inside. Just what that is is whether it was biological human

being or an object is what the debate is up for. But I really don't think it matters at this point.

We still need to find both. I'm still optimistic on this. Believe it or not, just because they're now

able to check a lot of other things for behaviors that match us because if we go along the theory

that he's done this before, there's going to be other people that are checking their cameras and

saying again, within a radius of a couple hundred miles, I would think you're going to get something.

As Jennifer Kaufendevs are put up to, they're signs that they put up billboards all the way to Houston

as well. I think that circle that they're looking at is pretty large because again, this is a

community with really spread out houses. She brought up, there was one other abduction in that area

that was north of it, I thought. I guess my question on the billboards is this because Houston's

a long ways away from what she was. What sort of thinking goes into that choice to buy billboards?

I mean, the FBI, it costs money to buy billboards. You know, you don't, you don't,

FBI doesn't go to the billboard company. Hey, where the FBI, we'd like to take some billboards out.

Here you go, they're free. No, it costs thousands of dollars for a billboard. There's a lot of money

that's coming out of somebody's budget to put these things up, especially in a city like Houston.

They're going to be very expensive. They're hitting a lot of eyeballs. You're collecting

sometimes tens of thousands of dollars for a single billboard. So who's making the choice

as to where these billboards go and why is there some information on the back end here?

Because we've been talking about Houston being very heavily bombarded with these billboards

other than it has a fairly similar demographic makeup of population as to where Nancy is at.

Why Houston? Is there something back behind the scenes that the FBI is basing this on? Or,

or is it, is it clout? Is it, let's make, we don't have anything. So we want, you know,

the public to be on our side. So let's make it really look like we're really involved in this and

we don't have anything to go on. So all we can do is kind of put this out there not to say that

they're not working this, but when you don't have anything and you want the public trust on you,

you know, you're going to have to grandstand a little bit and let them see, we're caring.

We're caring at the very least. We're asking for your help with all these billboards. I mean,

what is the thought process there that Houston is lined with Nancy Guthrie billboards?

Boy, you'd really love to think that law enforcement is putting all the thought that you just did

into it, aren't you? You know, but having been in it for so long,

do they get a good deal? Yeah, you know, me, I'm the glass hat full of most things I will see,

but when it comes to decision-making processes, both of individual morons like this guy that

broke into the house and did whatever he did inside Nancy's house or law enforcement at large,

I tend to go on, people tend to take the easiest answer first. And so I'm on the fact that,

well, again, thought I have no idea. They could have been completely strategic in what they're doing

and they had a great team come together and said, hey, here's the most effective place to put

this together. Or you had someone on the inside, hey, we got to get a lot of bank for a buck.

What's the greatest advertising company we could have to get as much billboards up for the cheapest

price we can? That's going to give us a positive image in the public that we're doing something.

I have seen that second answer more than I've ever seen the first answer. Because so then you

got to look at reps. So let's look at this, Tony. Let's look at reps. How often, as this department,

or law enforcement in general, in this area ever put up billboards for a missing person? If they don't

have a rep, you know, like repetitions having done it before, and this is their first rep, they're

going to learn on this one, if it was effective or not effective, and it's the first time they're

doing it, they're going to go, what's the biggest bank for our buck for investing in this kind of

advertising and marketing? Yeah. And why, why is the picture of Nancy on the billboard? I mean,

we know what Nancy looks like. Why is the perpetrator not up there? Why don't we have a close-up

of what we have? I know there's like not great image or we have it, but there is a close-up with

the mass. You can see why the hell is him and his image not on the billboard? I mean, again,

it kind of goes back to the planning of this billboard. Was that one? Yeah. I mean, who made the

decision of putting Nancy's face on the billboard? Nancy's missing. I mean, I get it like when a missing

person's case, and this kind of is that, but it's more so let's figure out the perpetrator at

this point. So these billboards went out. Why are we not looking for that? Well, and I get it,

maybe just because it grabs your attention, because you see Nancy Guthrie, and so it might be

recognition. It's kind of like throwing the word sex up and then saying, then by actually putting

the advertising with it. Do that. Put the perpetrator's name up, put perpetrator, Nancy Guthrie,

and one side, and just the word sex, and then the word, then the FB iPhone number, and see what

happens. Like suddenly they get flooded with more tips. Yeah. I'm, you know, given the pattern

behavior we saw, I have seen so far though, with messaging, since billboards are another form of

messaging, I'm tend to be a little cynical on the thought process that went out. Yeah, that's a

good one right there. That's a very good one right there. But again, the choice and the ability

to control where they go. That's always, I mean, you know, we're, I mean, and I apologize, I know

me look everything up. I have not looked up ever since Coffin Defer brought up the billboard issue.

I hadn't looked up how billboards, location or choice or anything like that. I've seen, you know,

missing people billboards before. That's not really a new thing. I guess the curiosity for me is

the choosing of this box. Locations. Yeah. I'm always like, like, why? And they're not cheap. It's

not, and then the billboard companies don't do this for free. So, yeah, I just, that I'm curious.

I love to know the top. So here's another level of, I love doing the, you know, how to,

how to sausage is made kind of moments behind the scenes. And so billboards aren't cheap.

Okay. So maybe, you know, my favorite word, maybe. So in a world where social media, marketing,

and selling ad space as, as all our streaming services are more and more inundated with ad space,

you know, things like billboards are getting pushed to the way side a little bit more. And so

there's also a potentiality that a billboard company that has seen a drop in revenue might use

as a bolster to say, hey, look at our billboards up here on to other potential marketers saying,

listen, you know, we'll give, we'll give the law enforcement guys a break so people can see how

affected the billboards are as well. Yeah, I mean, I'm guessing they probably got a good price.

You know, I'm get, I bought billboards before when I own an ad agency. And I know how the

process works. They're not cheap. I bought them for the government before. I, as an ad agent,

more data points on time. Yeah. And yeah, I mean, I've worked, I think it actually was the FBI.

I was doing some work for a long time ago. It was a recruitment campaign. If I remember right,

this was long time ago. And I mean, you get like a lower rate sometimes, you know,

when it's something of that nature, almost like political rate, but yeah, but it's still,

they don't do it for free. And a good point there too. Someone might have sponsored them,

you know, by creative on geography. Maybe how? I mean, it's the FBI's billboard. I don't see the,

I don't even know the path to how that would even work. I mean, I mean, it was the FBI's bill.

I don't know. I mean, I guess anything is possible because the FBI does not accept

charity in that way. I mean, I remember during 9-11 in New York, people wanted to donate

even just food, water, sandwiches to us. I mean, like we didn't have cell phones during 9-11,

and so people wanted to donate like cell service and cell phones so we could use them during

the course of investigation. We turned it all down. NYPD took it all, but we had to turn everything

down. We weren't allowed to take anything. Well, can we look at it as a bribe? I mean,

and if someone had, I mean, like there are certainly good, hearted, wonderful people who just

want to help. And here, take what I got. You guys deserve it. You need it. But then you can also

have nefarious people using that as an end to, I, I, there, I saw the, uh, locally here. Uh,

currently the TSA is, is, it's a nightmare in most places. Um, and I saw our local airport here,

was actually, and then I don't know what the status of this is, but they were asking for

donations to help feed the TSA people. Sounds lovely, but it's actually against the law to, uh,

to give donations, even in this sense, to, to, especially for someone in that sort of capacity,

um, you know, because it could be, it could be used as a bribe for the wrong people in the wrong

place. I know we're, I know we're going to far down a rabbit hole in this one, but again, 9-11

in New York City, they would actually have the phase that people would set up for law enforcement,

and everyone at every single agency in the world that was part of, part of 9-11 in New York City

went through these buffet, they're beautiful, set up by Salvation Army and everything. Everyone

except us. We got to stand outside watching everyone get fed as we were just covered in muck. Yeah,

that's good stuff. That's interesting. Yeah. So that's, um, yeah, obviously not a whole lot,

new here on this case. All right. Still far more questions than answers. Um, you know, here's

the movement though. I think, I think the, I think them recambe seen on those dates and checking

ring cams for those dates and stuff. I think that's an interesting movement. It is. Your thoughts

in the comments section on substack in YouTube. Be sure to weigh in and we'll continue the conversation

over there. Want more on this case and others? Then press subscribe now and don't miss a moment

of true crime coverage from Tony Brusky and the Hidden Killers podcast.

This is Hidden Killers Live with Tony Brusky and Robin Dree.

Let's go over here 40, what, 48 days? 49? I don't know. We're near 50. No, we're

and this week, uh, the Ashara front of the investigation. Nados, uh, exposed for lying under

oath about his own law enforcement background. Surprise. A formal recall is now in motion. We'll

talk about that. We'll talk about the, uh, the lying under oath. Uh, they asked him, you know,

had there ever been any sort of suspensions or any sort of disciplinary records or disciplinary

actions in your past? Nope. Nope. Not that I'm aware of. Turns out there was. It goes way back.

It goes back to the 70s and 80s, actually, uh, in El Paso, but there's quite a storied history

over there that, uh, you know, kind of rushed away to the, the past, um, but there was a lot.

There was a lot of issues, uh, that Nana so allegedly has, uh, in his past. And I guess more than

anything else, not necessarily just the issues, um, it's, it's the credibility factor. This is a

man who already has had his credibility drug through the mud, really by his own doing. Uh, and then

you add this to it. It's just kind of like, all right. Um, are we wondering why no one's found Nancy?

This might be where to start. Uh, I mean, uh, Jen, what's your thoughts on, uh, on this new

revelation as we get into the weeds more on the people that are behind the investigation and

defining Nancy got the ring. Okay. So first of all, I'll say this is, I think it's important to

understand the, the, how a recall works. So a petition has to be signed in his case by 120,000

people that are eligible to vote. I mean, it's so funny. I keep seeing everybody on Twitter. How do

I vote? You can't, you have to be there and be a resident. Yeah. Well, you have to be a resident,

have to be legal. You have to be eligible to vote blah, blah, blah. And so that's number one. So

basically they're going to have to get about a thousand votes a day. It's a lot of, or signatures

and, you know, votes, however you want to call it signatures on this petition. I researched this

because Robin loves research. I'm popping on again right now as you're speaking now.

And I mean, now I was like, now that I come on with you guys now that Robin is also involved. I'm

like, gosh, I gotta get numbers. I gotta get some numbers here. So anyway, um, the numbers don't

look good for successful recalls. No, they don't. And back in, I think it was, I don't have my notes

right here, but I want to say just as recently as 2014 in people, they tried to recall that

sheriff in Maricopa County. They've reached out or tried to recall sheriff in another county.

They tried to recall it like they've, this is not unusual to be honest. And let's also keep in mind

who started the recall. The opposition, the opposition started the recall. So this didn't come from

citizenry from the opposition. So I just think it's important to understand how this works. If

they get 120,000 votes, then there is a recall election. And somebody or more than one person

whoever is eligible to run for that post or position can be on that ballot. And then there will

actually be a recall election. So my only point is there one of my only points. Well, my first

point is just I like to understand how all this person, the second point is this isn't going to

happen overnight. No, no, 120 days to get 120,000 signatures recall elections typically about a 17

percent success rate of even getting there to the actual recall election because you said about

a thousand signatures today and they have to be valid and they have to be verified. It can't just

be, hey, put your signature down with no phone number. Like you have to like, it's fill it out and

then verified. So 120,000. And I looked at the stats on this, too. And I want to, I know Robyn's

like waiting for. I know my head from doing this one is is is so if you're wanting to get 120

valid signatures because that's what you're going to need. They need to be valid. You need to get

roughly probably about 160,000 people to sign this thing because you're going to have several

thousand that are just not going to be valid. So you have to rank higher than that. And you're

talking about a county that's pretty damn split on whether they like nanos or not. The rest of

us out here in the ether. Yes, we all criticize him. This is that there's half of the area that

thinks he's dandy and they voted for him. So you got that going on. Robyn.

Yeah, probability 10 to 17%. Yeah. And that's actually when you're going down to probability,

and this is based on the number of eligible voters, number of people that actually voted in the

election of nanos, they need about 25% of the total people that actually voted for nanos to actually

go back to the polls actually on the recall. So overall probability taking all these things into

account that you're highlighting Tony. Overall, probability, successful removal combined,

five to 15%. You're going to put any money down on that one on the potley markets?

I'm not. I don't I don't think I would either. I don't know that they have enough people.

Number one, just the manpower to do it is insane. I mean, can it be done on something where people

are really, really driven? Yes, I don't know that you're going to have enough people that are

driven on this. And also to Jen's notice, or I'm sorry, Tony yours, the people that initiated this

was not the population, which you then have a higher chance and probability of getting to 25%.

This is done by political opposition and political opposition to nanos in this county is been huge.

You know, when I looked back at the naysayers about him, remember, I did a lot of research on him

individually when when all these things were coming out. Remember, he's he's batting 500 across

the country when it comes to his statements, misdamements and and and granted. He's got a great

department underneath them because their their clearance rate is so high comparatively. I mean,

I think you're on with me last time one of the times I went on about it. And I mean, he had 100%

his department had 100% granted only 12 for 12 and homicides last year. But overall in the last

five years, it's been in the 90s in the 60s for every other department. So he's got a very strong

department, but there's a lot of infighting. There is turnover, there's issues, but you always

got to ask yourself that question, are the things that people are saying, is it politically driven

or data driven? And that's where these things get really, really tricky to figure out because that

when you're because that you're trying to assess, is this righteous or is it a grudge? It's very

which also could be exactly the same. Someone hijacking it, so he is the political

opposition hijacking the anger for nanos right now to use it for their for their own advantage.

And and and and last point on this. And the problem with all this is it's such noise

distracting for what really needs to be done. Not just in Nancy's case, but in all the case,

they're covering this is a huge county. The number of sworn here is huge. I mean, it's a

suburban area, but the high population because it covers so much territory. So every time they're

they're spending time with this with this noise, it's distracting from doing the righteous work

on behalf of the people. Yeah, no, my soapbox. Yeah, I mean, it's it's one of the things I think

that a lot of people, you know, because they're going to compare what these new findings and we're

learning a lot about the eighties in nanos. I think it'd be interesting to do like in eighties,

AI of nanos, you know, in an eighties scenario or something and dressed up in the eighties.

Like what does that look like in eighty two? Yeah, I mean, it turns out he got fired. The day

I was born or we we stepped down the day I was born in 82 when I was doing that story earlier

today, but it's people are going to look at this and they're going to go, okay, if I lied on my

resume, if if I pretended that I didn't have all these disciplinary things going on against me,

and in each of them had different levels of severity, some were just tardiness to the job,

some were more serious, some were assault on, I mean, there was like some serious issues that

were being brought up against nanos back and they were so there was quite a few. He had a track

record of kind of being a tornado wherever he goes. People are going to look and go, well,

if I lied on my resume and they found out later, I wouldn't be able to keep my job. Yeah,

but you're not an elected official and that's different. You can you can do that. You can lie

all you want and if the people vote for you, they vote for you. Should there be more levers that

can be pulled in situations like this or are we in a, is this a good thing that we have? It is

as difficult as it is to recall someone like this, Jen. Well, I just think that there are so many

factors to look at. I mean, you know, and I think the reason Robin and I like armchair quarter

backing a case is so easy because we sit here and we can talk about all the mistakes. I mean,

there are some glaring mistakes and at the end of the day, nanos is in charge of this case,

even though he likely didn't make several of these calls for us to clear the crime scene after

20 hours and to just, I think he just trusted his people. I remember he was out at a basketball

game, having a good time. Right at the beginning. I mean, his optics driving around in that white

multi-colored vet. Just, you know, I just, I'm just, it's a beautiful car and I don't like anybody. Look,

I think it's great when people succeed. I love people to succeed to save up and have those

gizmos that they want, but he's just such a bad optic right now when everything is on him. I mean,

if I were like consulting for him, I would just say, can you just please stay behind your desk

just to your work and try to get this case solved. So to me, a lot of it is the optics. Yeah,

he lied. And that, I tell you, in the bureau, you lie, you're done. Uh-huh. Yes.

That's a strict, strict policy on that. But a lot of these don't, and he's an elected official.

Yeah. And the challenge with the optics and why it's so important, you know, and Jen brings up

a great point is like, he's not the one really making the calls on us. It's the lead investigator

whoever that is. Because again, their, their department's very strong in this. But here's the

problem with the optics. Optics drive public sentiment. And if the, I mean, so think about this,

if you had someone sitting on a fence that has a tip, they think might be, or someone even closer

to this guy, or someone that might be teetering with their own safety about whether it's safe to

actually call on this tip and regardless of money or not, because they fear for their lives.

If the optic is that the, that the clown at the top is buffoon, would you really trust that this,

that this clown can keep you safe if you call on that tip? That's one of the reasons why optics

are so important because even though he has nothing to do with it, that optic is that he does. And so

that's why it really goes an awful long way. Because again, he's the face of the department,

public trust and confidence or institution organizations that the person at the top has to

display. You should have trust and confidence. And if someone's acting like that, your respective

of the impact they might, may or may not have on the investigation, you got to change your behavior.

This is, I mean, it's a prime lesson in know who you're voting for. Don't just go with the

one that you saw the most signs for in people's yards. Go for what you actually believe in,

what you know, because I think if people had done a little more research on this guy,

I mean, they already voted him once and he was, he lost that he came back so people did have

some history on the guy. I don't know. I mean, it's, they are reflect, are elected officials

are a reflection of us. And unfortunately, the reflection is very much looking back at people

who are not very aware of what's going on around them. And good point by Candy Corner,

Cornell right there. If he lied to once, he's going to do it again. Yeah, you know, again,

that arc of behavior. This is all track record. It's back to the seven things. Long arc, man. Long

arc of of of controlling the narrative. You know, I don't like accusing people of lying,

but people do like to control narratives to their advantage. He lied under oath about his about

his history. That's that's where the lie came in. And again, I mean, it's like others, you know,

when people get caught in this may have the the foresight to go, you know what? Yeah, kind of

really screwed up. Maybe I should step down at some point. I don't expect that from him whatsoever.

He's he's going to keep treading the course until I'm guessing he's out of office because this

time has run up. But the one other thing on this we were talking earlier. I know you guys both have

some thoughts. Not that it necessarily matters either way on this case, but but some more

interesting thoughts are are coming about of of porch guy of what was going on with the foliage

before he he goes over and puts the foliage on top of the camera. Was there a key? I know there's

some some thoughts that you guys have Jen what's your thoughts on that? Do you think he was looking

for a key out there and did he get a key? I actually don't think that. No. I mean, when I initially

heard that I watched it, you know, 20 times like everybody else has that particular. I don't

think he was looking for a key. I think he as an after see how he knocks. So what he his right hand

is doing is knocking or trying to get, you know, on the camera, right? And then his left hand is

actually I think trying to open the door because as I've said, I really believe he has an accomplice

that's already in there and his job is to disable the camera. The again, this is my hypothetical. This

is what I believe from all I have seen. And so then I think he goes pegged. I'm not sure, but it

just looks like he puts that up there. Like pay attention because why wouldn't you let me just ask

to see it right here. That's all I have to cover my camera. Yeah. Why would I go like this?

You know, to cover my camera. So I just wonder. I mean, I just try to look at things lots. Yeah.

Yeah. If there wasn't accomplice, how would the how would the other accomplice be in there

and not have been caught on on this camera unless we're talking about another entry point or something?

Oh, no. The other entry point, I believe, and always has believed. Okay. I believed is the back.

And remember, do you remember the locksmith going? He filled it around with that back door, the

locksmith's camera. I mean, he's there doing something with that back door. So that's why I think

that's the entry and they said, well, we're not going to take her out where we went in because we've

got to walk around the whole house. Just think about cameras they could possibly see. So you think

they they gained entry through a back door, which makes more sense because there's a double gate

on that front door and the back doors and have camera covered. John, I'm even a side windows

didn't and they weren't double barbed or anything. So and so why wouldn't they go through another

egress and set it going through the front door with this camera? Any what are your thoughts on that?

So my thought was is that you have the where the car would be that circle drive is right there.

So basically now you have wounded Nancy and you literally have to walk such a short distance

compared to taking her out, walking around the entirety of the house, not 100% understanding where

other cameras are and if you're going to get caught on a motion camera or or anything else

from a neighbor. Remember and and they did recon it would seem there was a camera that was on the

roof or they worried about being caught with that camera seeing them. Remember when that points out

to the pool to kind of that back region. So I just think they didn't want to carry her all that way.

So why wouldn't you come out the front door rather than trying to go in it if you're already in the

house. I'm thinking out loud on this one because the other thing that I was on Nancy Grace the other

day and I didn't know this. I hadn't heard anywhere on you probably have you covered much more

thoroughly. Apparently there was a one of the theories why there's no visual on a cars because

there's an abandoned house near this as well that they think might have been used as a staging area.

Had you heard anything about that? Wow and I thought my hypotheticals just hypothetically speaking

that somebody else was involved was a reach. I see that as a huge reach.

I had you heard of a band I hadn't heard of a band in the house before.

I've heard so much now about this neighbor house. I know all this and these poor neighbors that

just moved out which they would have planned well in advance they have to. So that's what it was

neighbors that moved out. Well that's the only house I know about and that they weren't in anymore.

I've heard a lot about that so maybe somebody's extra. I must have been now when they're

talking about. Why would you be using a house in the neighborhood for stage? I mean that close

to their actual like why does it even make any sense? It gives these people a lot of credit for

being smart to remember all these people are morons. I was assuming it's like a die hard operation.

I mean it's just yeah I mean there's there's just so many pieces to this case. If this were

let's go down the road because there's a lot of folks I know that it's got their theory on what

happened here. But one of the big ones still is that this was a kidnapping that went wrong.

Okay let's say it was a kidnapping that went wrong and if you're in a kidnap

assuming for money there's got to be a purpose for it not just to have the company of Nancy

Guthrie with you until she dies. If this was a kidnapping for money it's been on the money's

been on the table whether she's alive or dead for this whole thing. So if this was in fact that

and it went wrong and she's dead why didn't anybody come in to get not the reward but to get the

ransom to get the body you know or did somebody calculate them and go just to rescue they could

catch us in some way trying to make this transaction and I'm not going to go there but wouldn't

they be the same calculated risk if she even was alive and you're going to try make some sort of

transaction it seems to be the same level of risk either way unless they just had a change of

heart once they realized that they got her and she died. I'm glad you asked this question. I think

I have a very simple answer yeah no proof of life there was no proof of life but they said they

give the money even if she was dead. Well that was well after I think whatever their decisions were

made to abort abort abort okay yeah that came on day oh my gosh way down the line now like day five

or something like that uh where they said that and I think that's why they're still saying that

I mean that's still their position but or did they get or did these people get rid of the body

and there's no body they give back. That's point they aborted they were aborted in Mexico or some other

place it would be so easy to put her in that trunk and drive to Mexico yeah as long as they're

citizens and then they could give I mean that's it that's what I would have done it's kind of a long time

an hour or so to have to have a body in your trunk the power of the night just roll through never to

be seen again now is it more statistically likely she's very close in that proximity yes yeah

now I mean yeah I mean bodies and trunks can last a long time before somebody sniffs them

and says hey there's something up here look at the look at the David case I was just thinking

exactly that David yeah yeah your thoughts in the comments section on sub-stack in YouTube we'd

love for you to weigh in and give us your thoughts want more on this case and others then press

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