Neil Oliver on rethinking everything we think about everything | Jerm Warfare

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My name is Jerm, this is Jerm Wolfe,

the Battle of Ideas.

I've been waiting a long time to say this.

Neil Oliver, thank you for joining me in the trenches.

Oh, I'm delighted. Yes.

The longer this attritional war goes on,

it's been six years for me now,

but I generally jump on every opportunity to talk.

Whenever someone makes contact with me

and wants a conversation,

I'm more than happy to be the other half of it.

I've been struggling, though, for years to get you on.

I'm not quite sure why.

It might just be the fact that I've had the wrong contact details all along.

Yeah, I do.

Obviously, just recently there,

I did another conversation with James Dellingt,

on the piece Dellingt. He's a friend of mine.

Me too.

So we've got that mutual connection.

And then he subsequently said that you were looking to connect with me.

So really, that was the first time I became aware that you wanted to make contact with me.

So I just said, yes.

And then you said that we also had another mutual friend in common

that's Nick Hudson.

You're friends with African.

Yeah.

I've been talking to Nick now for years.

Ever since goodness knows through his pandata,

you know, all these researches and study of what was going on during the COVID debacle,

I've known Nick for years.

So how, by what means we've managed to not make contact with miscellaneous?

It is.

But now listen, because this is your first time on my, on my show,

I know you've been on UK Column before.

And this obviously is for UK Column.

Or haven't you?

I think you know, I couldn't, I couldn't deny it.

But obviously like you, you know, I've been a guest on so many different platforms.

I don't remember them all, but I may well have done.

I'm certainly very aware of UK Column,

whether or not I've actually been interviewed or taken,

but I couldn't say either way.

Well, because this is your first time then on my show,

I just want to go through a little bit of your background.

Just because it's so interesting, I'm, you know,

you're actually an archaeologist.

A thousand years ago, really, I left school in the 80s

and I went to Glasgow University and I studied for a degree in archaeology.

Just appealed to me.

I was always interested in things, you know,

historical and so on and archaeology seemed like a really good,

so a different avenue to, to go down.

You know, I, I worked then.

I got my degree and I worked as a, as a digger.

You know, for a few years, I excavated numerous sites.

And then, and then I thought I found that I couldn't make any money,

basically.

It was a, it was a fascinating subject,

but it was very difficult to make a living.

So I retrained then at that point in my,

I suppose I was probably in my early mid-twenties.

I retrained as a journalist.

I joined a local newspaper in the Southwest of Scotland where I grew up.

And I qualified again.

I did a three-year indenture with them and they, they trained me up

and I got shot hand in typing and all of this stuff of a cub reporter.

And then, you know, and then I went off in a slightly different,

slightly different direction, but over the years, you know,

archaeology and history came back in and by the, by the end of the millennium,

around 99, 2000, stumbled into television.

And the television that I ended up making for quite a long time

was about history and archaeology.

So I kind of, you know, I took a detour and then ended up back in the same place.

When it comes to archaeology, I've come to the conclusion

that most of what we understand about history is just wrong.

You go straight in at the, you go straight in at the number one rabbit hole there for me.

Yeah, I was like you.

2020 was definitely the turning point here for me.

By which point, let's say, where are we now?

I was, I was 53, I suppose, in 2020.

You know, so I'd been around, I'd been around the houses, as we say.

And I thought a new stuff.

And I had always been interested in history and archaeology,

but I depended on what I had been taught.

You know, I went to a state school in Scotland, you know, just a regular school.

And then I went to university and I listened to what I was told.

And I, you know, qualified and passed exams in that.

But by now, six years into this new perspective,

I've begun to rethink everything.

Absolutely.

I'll be honest, this is not, I'm not, I'm not making this up.

I was always open to what might have been called, I suppose, alternative interpretations of history.

You know, to pass your exams and get the degree and whatever, you know, you follow, you follow a line.

You know, you keep in your lane, broadly speaking.

But I was always interested in this sort of eric von Danken.

You know, more recently, obviously, you know, the thinking and writing of people like Graham Hancock.

You know, I was always, I was never, I've never really been a, a died in the wool academic.

I went to uni, like, you know, millions of my cohort from school.

But I didn't then go on to do higher degrees and any of that.

And that meant that I was never, I was less likely, I suppose, to remain railroaded and only listening to other academics.

You know, because I went out into the world of journalism or just out into the world in general,

I was listening to and I was watching stuff on television and I was reading other books.

So I was always, I was always aware of alternative interpretations.

The long way around, I've taken a bit of a, a, a detour again there.

But by now, I think that the, the really what bothers me more than anything else is the timeline.

There's a, there's an accepted orthodox timeline.

You're born of, well, everything, geology, radio carbon dating, thermal luminescence dating,

so chronology, which is, you know, tree ring dating.

There's an established and inverted commas timeline.

This happened, then this happened, then this happened, then this happened.

And it all happened within this period of time, whatever.

By now, I don't, I don't ex, I don't just accept that timeline.

That's my main problem.

And it, but that's only the tip of the iceberg.

So by now, because I've always, because I've been, you know,

I now proudly wear the hat of, well, the tinfoil hat conspiracy theorist thing.

I've long since.

Hi.

Yeah.

Please do it.

I've long since shrugged off any concern.

In fact, I feel if you're not tar with that brush, then you're not trying hard enough.

And so now that I've relaxed into that persona,

I don't care who, who knows.

I don't care about other people's opinion of what I think, or at least what I'm open to considering.

So a whole new, a whole new wide vista has opened up for me in the last six years.

And, you know, I've done some fascinating reading and listening.

The, the COVID era was a disaster for the world in many ways.

I mean, people were locked down and it was just an absolute catastrophe.

But now what you know now, Neil, would you go back to 2019?

No.

Hard, no.

It was difficult.

It was like, it was like a slap in the face or a punch in the face.

Being, you know, initially labeled as whatever, anti, you know, anti this,

anti that, anti Vax or COVID denier, you know, granny killer was the start of it.

But then that developed as I looked at other things into whatever, you know, conspiracy theorist,

anti semi, whatever.

I've been called it.

You name it.

I've been called it.

And it did hurt to begin with.

But then I always used an analogy of, you know, the fear of the first punch in the face is worse than the first punch in the face.

You know, once you get the punch in the face.

Oh, right.

That's where it's like to get a punch in the face.

And the subsequent blows still hurt.

But they don't take you by surprise in the way that the first punch in the face dead.

And so I don't, I've also used an analogy of shedding a shell like a crab.

And you go through that, well, presumably a crab goes through that period where it's some defenseless.

Because it's soft again.

But then you grow a different shell, a bigger shell that lets you be bigger.

And you're, and so on and so on.

And that's the process, you know, you want to keep growing.

And I think that square, that square I've, I've been them.

It was a shock to me.

I was a, it didn't help me.

I was a kind of a member of the, of the lesser establishment here in the UK.

You know, because I was presenting the kind of television awards, which was soft.

Kind of BBC documentary series about the landscape and about history and archaeology.

And so you, charities and others approach you and ask you to represent them.

And to be a face.

And I was, you know, I represented a few charities.

I was also, for a while, they are the, the president of the National Trust for Scotland.

I had been invited to become and was very briefly a, a fellow of the Royal Society of Edinburgh,

which is one of those sort of august societies, you know, for your academic intellectual times.

And, you know, I was, I was a known face.

And then, because of what I started to say around Covid, and then everything else,

like the war in Ukraine, like the climate crisis, hoax.

The Gaza, you know, the genocide and all of the rest of it,

merely taking a stance where I was saying, are we sure about this?

Really, I mean, I was just, really, wait a minute, hang on.

There seems to be an alternative way of interpreting these events.

Could we, you know, maybe we should look at that.

You know, so I got, I got so battered by that.

And then I was dropped by everyone, all those little accretions that I had gathered around me.

I was dropped by every charity.

I was dropped as the president of the National Trust for Scotland.

Well, I was challenged by the members, the fellows of the Royal Society of Edinburgh to apologise.

I can't even remember what specifically I had said.

But anyway, I was asked to recant.

And I said, no, I'll just leave.

And I left.

I think I'm probably the person with the briefest tenure,

a fellowship of the Royal Society of Edinburgh.

It must have been months, literally.

And so my agent dropped me, everyone dropped me.

My newspaper column, indeed, I'll never doubt if I'll ever work for terrestrial television again.

But, you know, and so all of that has all of that has happened to me.

But you asked the question, do I regret it?

100% hard, no, because I'm content that I did right in saying what I said.

I wanted to say what I said, and I don't regret saying what I said.

So there's an unhappy, very happily, my wife, you know, we've been together for a long time.

We've known each other since we were teenagers.

And my wife never missed a beat, either.

So she was always on the same page, as we say.

And my kids managed to keep my kids, our kids away from the jobs.

They didn't take any of that.

And that, for me, that's achievement number one.

The fact that Trudy and I, my wife, became even tighter as a unit.

And the fact that we kept our kids away from that bio weapon, that's, if nothing else had happened,

I would still be content that I did right.

Well, I mean, I also wouldn't go back to 2019.

My child was born, sort of, post-COVID.

And we struggled for a long time to fall pregnant.

And if it weren't for the COVID era, my child would not be vaccinated.

Another one, hang on, I forgot that the right way around.

My child does not vaccinate it.

Let me put it back.

Your child does not, yeah.

Yeah.

And he's healthier as a result.

Now, if you had asked me in 2019, I would have said, absolutely, he's going to get vaccinated.

So I'm very, very grateful.

Yeah, I'm very grateful.

I mean, Trudy and I, our kids are older.

I mean, my eldest is 22, soon to be 23.

And my youngest is 17, 18 and my middle boy is 20.

And back in the day, we got them MMR.

You know, you get your half.

That's the measles.

I was also in Rebellic.

Yeah, I was in Rebellic.

I mean, my mum and dad got me, us, me and my sister's jab with whatever was offered up at the times.

But decades ago, and when the MMR came along, we did that.

We got the kids jabbed.

And now, mercifully, as far as we can tell, you know, dodged a bullet on that one.

I don't know, I don't know.

But if I had my time again, if I had my time again with 2020 hindsight, we wouldn't, and Trudy says the same,

we would absolutely not let a needle anywhere near them at any point.

And, you know, but there, but there we go.

Here we are.

My awakening, my, I put a lot of it down to just, it wasn't that I was pro jab, really.

Not really.

It was just that I wasn't paying attention.

And the MMR was just another thing you did.

Here's this date in the calendar, you get your kids jabbed.

And that didn't really, God, forgive me, we didn't, it just, we went along with the orthodoxy.

Everybody around us seemed to be getting the same thing.

So we just went along with it.

I've done that.

And I've said, you know, when people come at me now about, oh, you didn't used to say this and you didn't used to say that.

Absolutely, I didn't.

I accept that completely, but you only, you only to use the common parlance waking up when you're waking up.

In this instance, if someone, you can't, you can slap and shake someone, whatever.

But you can't wake in someone else up.

The other person has to wake up by themselves.

You know, it's not like, you know, the true love's first kiss for sleeping beauty and you're waking up.

You're waking up when you're waking up and I woke up in 2020.

And I hold my hand up and say that things are dead and what I thought before 2020 was different.

I don't apologize for it. It's just where I was.

And now I think differently and, you know, that's it.

That's a very interesting point that you're making.

You said you woke up in 2020.

So like, would you say that that was your Damascus moment?

Because many people have had a series of moments over the years that have kind of turned the light bulb on.

For me, for example, I believed the 911 story for the longest time.

The climate change story, I believed also until around 2009 when I watched a documentary called The Great Global Warming Swindle,

which really got me rethinking that.

But still, no real huge Damascus moments for me until around 2020.

Yes, I suppose what you make me think of there is I used to travel a lot with work.

You know, flew all over the world to make television.

And it was my habit when I checked into a hotel to go into the room and turn the television on.

You find the remote and switch it on.

But I didn't watch it.

I just wanted the background noise.

It was like company in the room.

So I was, it was on.

And I knew it was on.

And I could hear it.

But I wasn't sitting down and paying attention to it.

And when it comes to the first five decades of my life and everything that was going on, it was like that.

You know, the MMR, let's say, because we've just mentioned it, was just on in the background.

And I just, without analyzing it, without sitting down and looking at MMR,

it went along with it.

And I think probably that's the intended effect of the orthodoxy.

Most people, certainly myself, without paying attention, I just got bumbled along.

I just, I was distracted by what I was doing.

I was busy with my work.

I was busy with my family life and all its attendant, you know, business.

And I didn't really look, like you say, 9-11 happened.

I didn't, I thought, my God, you know, all right.

What happened there?

I'll write some terrorist hijack planes and crash them into the World Trade Center.

Am I good now?

Yes, those Muslims.

I mean, I didn't really, I didn't analyze it particularly.

And things like when Britain joined with Tony Blair and George Bush went to war in Iraq,

I don't really often talk about the fact that we were in a hospital in London on the,

you know, there was a footage of the Saddam Hussein statue getting pulled over by a crowd.

When that was happening, Trudy had just had the first of three, as it turned out,

emergency cesarean sections, right?

So we were in, we were in that.

That was what was preoccupying us and that.

But that was happening literally, television in the background.

We didn't bother to think, should we have, why have we gone to war?

Just it was there in the background, like that, that company in a hotel room when you're on your own.

It was just a hiss in the background.

It was better than silence.

You say, when you're for, I do look back.

Now, I remember obviously in Britain, the royal family has always been a big deal in Britain.

You know, birthdays, coronations, weddings, you know, huge coverage of all of those events.

And I do remember when Diana Princess of Wales died in that incident.

I remember, for the first time, I was, you know, looking at it on the television and in the newspapers.

And I remember thinking, that's weird.

Obviously it was a tragedy that a young mum had died, as it is when anyone, a young mum dies.

That's a terrible sadness for the family.

But, you know, I didn't know that woman personally.

And while I could empathize with the grief, I could understand why her nearest and dearest would be as upset as you would expect.

The national outpouring, men in the streets tearing their clothes and howling and wailing.

You know, the mountains of flowers and all of the rest of it.

I remember thinking at that point, an early inkling that this feels like brainwashing of something.

It feels like a collective madness.

This feels like some sort of collective hysteria that people are just being swept along by as though by a torrent, a sudden flash flood on a river.

But, my, but without a doubt, you know, my, my damocene moment, and it wasn't really even as dramatic as that.

When, when the lockdown happened, I still thought, my, truly was worried about the kids.

They were still at school at that point.

You know, suddenly we were being told about the black death was coming out of the east via Italy and everybody was going to die.

They were going to be bodies heaped in the streets and thought, oh, my God.

And, you know, for the first couple of weeks of the lockdown, we thought, oh, well, maybe we should.

Maybe that's the right thing to do, just to see what happens.

You know, it's like, when you hear a shout in the street and you put your hands over your head, just, oh, what is it?

And then, you know, the moment passes and you have a look around.

For the first couple of weeks, we thought, well, maybe that's the right thing to do.

But we're self-employed, broadly speaking.

And everything, every means by which I had ever earned a living, stopped.

Everything, I didn't have any work in lockdown.

And so, you know, the reality of the situation was that we first began to be opposed to it,

because we simply thought, we're going to lose the house.

And also, as the time went on, we realised that we weren't seeing anyone die.

The wheelbarrows have not been pushed up and down the street, you know, with the lifeless bodies of the neighbours getting loaded and taken away.

So, there were no ambulance lirens either.

No, there was nothing. There was nothing.

So, there was a period of where you thought, well, we're still locked down.

They're still telling us that it's the black death, but I'm not seeing anything.

I'm not seeing anything.

So, it was a gradual process.

You know, Trudy and I were looking at each other going, we can't.

The black death may or may not be here, but we're going to lose the house anyway.

And that will be even, that will be something much more direct to worry about.

And then, of course, then it went on.

And by 2021, the blue envelopes were coming through the door saying, come and get your injection,

come and get your so-called vaccine.

And again, without any particular rebellious feeling, Trudy and I just looked at one another and thought,

no, I mean, nobody's.

I don't know anybody with Covid.

I certainly don't know anybody who's died of Covid.

So I don't think there's any, I wouldn't take it.

And we literally sort of were of the opinion that, well, just wait and see.

Maybe as the years go on, we might review the situation.

But in the short term, we don't need that.

But then, having made that, thank goodness, decision.

And also having persuaded the kids as time went on that you don't need to do this.

And my son wanted back to the gym.

My daughter was worried about not being able to socialize with friends.

But we said, just wait, wait, and they did, mercifully.

But then, of course, it became more and more apparent that the jobs were dangerous.

Whatever, we could down that road if you want.

We thought, right, oh, thank goodness we didn't do that.

As the time went on, that, well, we still, I still don't know anyone who died of Covid.

But there is a metaphorical pile of dead that I'm aware of.

And it's people that died of heart attacks and strokes.

We've got sudden cancers out of a clear blue sky.

You know, people in the forties and fifties who'd been fit and well.

We've suddenly had late stage cancers and were swept away within weeks and whatever.

And we thought, right, that's a sinister thing.

Or something badly wrong there.

It's just coincidence, Neil.

Yeah. So, you know, you talk about a damn scene moment.

It was much, much more gradual and that, for me, it was a, for Trudy and I, it was...

I mean, where we are now, we think this was malign.

This was evil. We are surrounded by psychopathic pedophiles.

But we got there by a long process of just initially, initially lifting our heads up

and having a look around to assess the situation.

And it's become, well, we're, we've arrived at the point where we are.

But it was not overnight. It was not a damn scene moment.

I'm in 100% agreement with you regarding the vaccines.

In fact, in fact, not just the COVID, but all vaccines I now think are, are pretty, are pretty risky.

Me too.

To various degrees.

I, I do not see the necessity for absolutely any vaccine at all, nothing.

Me too.

Yeah. So, and that's again, thanks to the COVID era.

And for me, it'll, it'll always go down as, as a great learning experience.

I remember believing the, the official story in early 2020.

I thought, okay, there is this virus that's spreading.

I remember that hold northern Italy thing.

Remember, they said people traveled from China or something.

And then Trump wanted to lock down, not lock down, stop all flights to and throw China or something like that.

And I thought, okay, you know, maybe there's some new disease or something.

But then in March, when half the world just coincidentally Neil started locking down his citizens

and announcing the same stuff.

Yes.

And using the same, the same terminology.

Had you ever heard the term social distancing in your life?

No, I, I, I, I certainly, I had had locked down before, but only in the context of prison movies.

You know, a riot would be starting to break out and they would lock down.

You know, whatever, threw everybody in their resells in Alcatraz and locked, and that was a lockdown.

I knew about it.

I knew what a lockdown was in that context and only that context.

And yes, it was all, that was part of the, the, the gradual process was hearing everyone, you know, whatever.

Boris Johnson, Joe Biden, you know, the French leader, the generally, all across the place,

a close Schwab of the world economic forum, all King Charles, all using the same sentences.

Jacinda.

You know, flatten the curve.

Yeah, Jacinda, the, the horrors show that unfolded in Australia, prison island and, and in New Zealand.

But that build back better, flatten the curve, you know, save the NHS window of opportunity.

And you could, people have started to put together those montages on, on social media, where you could see a thousand news anchors all saying the same sentence.

And you think that's really weird.

That's, you know, that never happens.

You know, Nick Hudson, already name checked him.

I mean, Nick, Nick, Nick came up with at some point, the Hudson's razor, as he called it.

Yeah.

Welcome's razor, where he said, if something's being presented as a global threat with a single solution to which everyone must adhere, unquestioning and in lockstep.

And thirdly, if you're not allowed to question that version of events, if you can tick those three boxes, according to Hudson's razor, you're dealing with a scam.

And that, that I've remembered that ever since, that resonated very strongly with me.

And it applies to what we were told about the war in Ukraine, what we've been told about the climate crisis, what we've been told about net zero, you know, agenda 20, agenda 21, agenda 20, 30, whatever it is.

It's the same, you can tick all three boxes for that.

And I thought, yes, that's, that is right, you know.

So we're, we're being all the time as it turns out, we are scammed.

But I think what happened, and I don't know why it happened because you would think, you know, long experience of the, that sort of Fabian society model of softly, softly, softly catchy monkey.

Slow, slow, slow, the, the tortuys rather than the hair, gradual, gradual, gradual, which had obviously been working, you know, gradually, whatever boiling the frog, by very slowly, you know, keeping the heat under it.

I don't understand why at some point in 2020, well, I do, I do have theories, but clearly they suddenly ramped everything up.

The analogies would be, they suddenly stamped on the accelerator pedal, they suddenly crank the flame under the boiling frog up from low to hot.

I don't understand why that happened because the net effect of them suddenly galloping towards the finishing line was that people like me, and there's nothing special about me, I'm a regular pair.

My, in my, in my, uh, cub reporter training days, my editor said, you represent the reasonable man. That's your job.

You're not to, you're, it's like, it's like the Goldilocks thing. You're not too smart. You're not too stupid. You're just a reasonable guy.

And you, your responsibility is to look at events and ask the things that a reasonable guy would ask, you know, when, how, what, where, who, basic questions.

And then once you've got that information, then see where you are. See if you can, how would you assess that situation based on those simple, reasonable questions.

And I thought if the, what they did after 2020 for whatever reason when they stamped on the gas pedal, it woke up people like me.

Not too smart, not too stupid, just reasonable to turn that up. It looks as though a third of the world, or a third of the people offered the jobs didn't take them. That's huge.

You know, if that's true, if one in three people for whatever reasons said no to that, that's enormous.

So what fascinates me is the fact that they did stamp on the gas pedal in 2019. Now, I think I know why, but that's, for me, that was amazing to me because it's like centuries of careful boiling of the frog.

We're suddenly thrown out the window.

Hang on, I want to take a brevity break for a second. This analogy of the frog being boiled. Do you know anybody who's ever boiled a frog?

Exactly. I mean, you raise a good point. I mean, you know, if you look it up, you know, people will tell you know if frog always jumps out of the water when it gets too warm.

So, but if you continue the analogy, you can put a lid on it.

You can put a lid on the frog. So even though the frog realizes it's being boiled to death, it was nothing it can do about it.

It's too late.

I suppose, I suppose to torture the analogy. I suppose with something like, you know, whatever locked down and jabs in the rest of it, they possibly were metaphorically attempting to put the lid on the pot.

But they didn't, you know, what do you think?

Neil, what do you think was and is going on?

Well, I think it's, I think it's always about money.

You know, I mean, you go back thousands of years, it's about, you know, it's about gold. It's about who's got the gold. Where is it?

You know, wars being fought for control of the medium of exchange, if you like, you know, which was gold for the longest time.

You know, and more recently, it's been about oil, you know, all the, you know, half the wars are about securing access to the valuable.

That which is desirable.

I think so that's the driving for is banal, you know, Hannah Arendt, you know, uncovering the Aichmann trial said, you know, the banality of evil.

That when you get right down to it, you know, with someone like Aichmann, he's just a bureaucrat just doing his job.

But what manifests with that mindset of just doing your job is unspeakable, whatever.

And that's a whole other, that's a whole other rabbit hole to put down. But anyway, that, you know, it's a useful way of, it's a useful way of, of, of thinking.

That I think in answer to your question, it boils down to money.

People know what I'm, I'm just using the word money as a shorthand. I mean, I know there's, you know, you can debate endlessly exactly what the difference is between money and currency and so on and so on.

I think as, as 20, I think during the, from 2010 onwards, I think, just to put a rough estimate on, I think what began to emerge for the controlling,

controlling elite that were accustomed to being the people empowered to create money out of nothing.

And then to control its flow, you know, printing money quantitative easing fraction or reserve banking and so on and so on.

That was just a later, a late stage manifestation of what had been there for thousands of years, which was the powerful control the wealth.

I think what began to manifest from about 2010 onwards was some kind of unexpected existential threat, a financial existential threat.

Something, well, you know, we could talk about that till till the cows come home. But I think what manifest for the powerful was a threat to their financial control.

You need, you know, you need money to pay for the armies that do your bidding, you know, to bribe the people that you want to do your bidding, you know, to pay for everything, you need money.

When I think there was a, there was a burgeoning threat to that position, I think it's still there.

You know, an existential threat is like, you know, kind of an extinction level event, which I think is still in the air, as it were, and that the powerful haven't got on top of it.

And so I think what happened in 2019 was a decision was taken that we need to get ourselves a breathing space, said the, said the wealthy powerful controlling to each other.

And so the lockdown and the, and the scam demic, the fake pandemic, and so aided and abetted by the background noise of, you know, the climate crisis hoax.

The world's about to catch fire if we don't, you know, give up our cars and all the rest of it. I think all of that was a response to the need to give themselves time.

How do you shut the world down? How do you stop everything? We'll lock down and put people in their houses in fear of some invisible threat.

And, you know, and so we're, we're now six years later.

And to some extent, I think that that we're still in a situation where the powerful are trying to get back on control.

And everything we're seeing, war in you create, because COVID began to run out of steam for them. It didn't have the effect anymore.

Most of the people weren't dying of it. They certainly weren't dying of that.

And so, you know, miraculously war in Ukraine appeared, which is now a forever war with, first world war, death tolls associated with it.

I mean, it's a, it's a proper horror. And it has enabled the European puppets to threaten conscription and, you know, boots on the ground in Ukraine for their, for their sons and daughters.

So, that's there. And then, what caught all was the climate crisis, you know, the horror show in the Middle East, you know, up to and including, you know, now, now Iran, the threat of, the threat of nuclear war, world war three.

I think what you're looking at is an increasingly desperate attempt to buy more time until the powerful can get back in control of the wealth with the surveillance state, the digital cage, digital ID, you know, central bank digital currencies.

I think the sort of stuff that Catherine Austin fits, you know, she frightened the living daylights out of me when I started listening to her years ago, because I thought, Oh, God, I can recognize that.

I can see what you're talking about there. I don't understand the math or the arithmetic, but I see what you mean. I think that's all to play for at the moment.

And partly, I think the reason where I do think that this desperate attempt to finally put the lid on the pot and boil the frog to death will fail because they cannot, they cannot solve that existential financial problem.

It's just getting bigger and bigger and more and more obvious.

I have to ask because you emphasized the day, who is they?

Well, I think when it comes to it, they we are all of us raised for the longest time to believe that we belong to countries independent nation states that have their independent, you know, identities and cultures and religions and languages.

And that we have our, you know, sort of geopolitical needs and wants, which we think that we elect our leaders to champion on our behalf.

So you've got people that think that they're American, think they're British, South African, French.

And that is a fundamental of how we are, we are kept in our boxes. We are the British. We need this. We are the Americans put America first keeps people in a mindset.

But I think that one of the keys that lets you out that sets you free is when you realize that they don't have any of those allegiances.

So the people that are they, which is to say the people who do make the big decisions are not, they don't, they don't belong anywhere or identify with any identity.

And I think that reality is that all of the people that are really making decisions for America, for South Africa, for Britain, for France, for everywhere.

They are kindred spirit. They are they, they share an intention to just mislead the mass of the population while they go about the business of getting what they want.

So I mean, the evidence is there, you know, if you go back, let's say into the 20th century, just past, you know, that if you dig around a little bit, you realize that, you know, let's say the rise of Hitler and Mussolini, let's say, was financed by Wall Street.

The money that enabled the rise of whatever fascism or Nazism, it was Wall Street, and to some extent the Bank of England, that deals were being struck.

There was a, there was a, what was kept from them from the mass of the population at that time was that Ibn Saud and Saudi Arabia, you know, Stalin, Hitler and Mussolini,

FDR, the interests of those people were all being looked after by the same legal companies, handful of, the same banks.

They were all, they were all doing business with each other, you know, the, you know, the general electric, general motors, Ford, whatever, were, were building trucks and other materials for Adolf Hitler.

At the same time as they were funding the Allies for D-Day, the same central banks were striking deals with all of the same people, while keeping millions of people in the mistaken belief that there was an adversarial contest going on between America, Britain and France and the Allies and, you know, and Germany.

Well, the reality of the situation was that all business was, it was business as usual, you know, it was all about centralizing gold, it was about deciding who was going to control oil and other reserves in the Middle East and elsewhere.

And the mass of the population was blindsided into thinking that there was a world war going on between distinct sides, when it wasn't like that.

And I think that manifestation in the 20th century is just one of many.

So you ask me who they are, I do subscribe to the belief that there is just a cohort, a cabal, you know, a cartel, much like a crime family,

that runs illegal business, at the expense of the general population, and from time to time members of the public, you know, get hurt.

And from time to time in this, using the model of a crime syndicate, there are battles for control of that.

Everyone's seen the Godfather movie, you know, the Matthews fight amongst themselves.

You know, what you're looking at, there's a good model to look at, I would say, in, you know, the Mexican drug cartels at the moment.

You know, the terrible violence there, you know, the terrible violence, you know, the decapitations, the flayings alive, the terrible stuff that's going on in Mexico,

because there's a civil war raging within the Sinaloa cartel.

Different factions within that cartel are fighting for control of the business.

And that violence will get worse and worse and worse until eventually one faction or another has won, and, you know, and wiped out the other faction.

And I think, you know, we're seeing that, you see that as well. That's why, you know, you get flash points because they don't, they don't all agree.

They are a criminal cartel, and it's, if you keep that image in your head of, yeah, they certainly treat us like the mass of the population, we're just, you know, idiots that go to work, pay our taxes, and abide by the law.

But they know that that's just for, that's just for them. We're good fellas. We're the, we're mafia. We don't, we don't do any of that. We do what we want.

From time to time, they fight amongst themselves. I think maybe, I think maybe we're in the midst of one of those civil wars where, where sides are, are fighting for dominance.

But none of it's got our interests at heart. We're just MOOCs. We're just the, we're just the, we're just the sheep, the cattle that we don't matter.

Yeah, and I think to feed into what you're saying, Neil, is I would also add that there's a sense of complexity that a lot of people around us seem to, uh, willfully ignore.

I really get annoyed by the sort of myopic, it's the Jews narrative because it is extremely simplistic, and it ignores, it ignores history.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think, I think what part of it is that the, that the malign force, the, the crime syndicate or whatever, uh, cloaks itself, it's never in plain sight.

It's always disguised. It's taking advantage of human shields, you know, during the Iraq war and whatever with Saddam Hussein and the human shields, you know, we learned about that concept of, you know, the baddies standing behind innocent people, you know, because the idea was that, you know, the other side would be less likely to shoot at you through women and children.

Um, although, you know, plainly, that doesn't, doesn't apply at all, not, not, not when the truly ruthless are concerned, you know, so there are, you know, there are, there are different things to hide behind, you know, and the, the notion of, you know, yeah, let's blame everything on the Jews is a, is a, is a choreographed.

Uh, slight of hand, you know, that, that's, that's, that's, that's one way in which you can distract people by what's really going on about, distract people about what's really going on.

Uh, you know, I mean, it, it goes without saying that, that people who worship, whose, whose religion is Judaism, you know, the, the very idea that all of those people,

uh, and, and let's remember that Judaism takes in people of, uh, you know, all colors, all sexualities, you know, it's a, it's a faith.

The, the very idea that those people are collectively, uh, you know, responsible for all the trouble in the world is nonsense.

The, you know, the, and, and of course, you know, the, at the moment that, that I think the use of the, of the, of the, of the label anti-Semite or anti-Semitic has been worn through.

That, that was a very effective weapon for a long time to be accused of anti-Semitism was, it was like being accused of being a pedophile.

And, you know, it was a terrible thing to be accused of, but it's been so, uh, overused and misapplied, it doesn't really matter anymore.

It doesn't, it, so something, something, I mean, so I think that the use of that, that, that thing that's been, you know, that the use of that, I think, actually is wearing out and will be replaced by something else.

So, yes, I mean, like you, I mean, absolutely, I, you know, to say that it's the use is just, it's just a nonsense.

That's, that's not the thing that they are just that controlling cartel.

And they are, they, they are neither Jewish, nor Muslim, nor Christian, they are neither unified, black, nor white, nor brown, they are neither gay, nor straight.

They are, that, that separation of the cartel from the rest of us cuts vertically, doesn't cut horizontally.

You know, you don't go, oh well, he's, he's, he's Jewish, so he must be a baddie.

It's in the same way that always gay, he must be a baddie, always American, he must be a baddie, or he's, you know, whatever, he's Iranian, he must be a baddie.

That's nonsense.

But some of them are.

Some of them are.

And this is a ginger.

You know, it's like that thing about, you know, all, all, all, um, all thumbs are fingers, but not all fingers are thumbs.

You know, I mean, it's like, people just get, you know, there's always a label, there's always a label.

Oh, it's the fault of the...

It's a copat.

Oh, yeah, it's a copat.

And it, it is, I mean, it's, you know, it's actually lazy.

It's completely intellectually lazy.

I mean, we can all, it's almost a cliche now, but everyone truly is, you know, well, generally, you know, you're able to say, I've got friends of all sorts.

I've got, I've got Muslim friends that I love, you know, that I, I've got, I've got Jewish friends, I've got, I've got, I've got gay friends, I've got American friends, I've got, you know, women friends, I've got male friends.

You know, I mean, my, my group of people, you know, about whom I care, it's not, it's not determined by any of these labels.

You know, I, it's all I can say, and I certainly don't, that you cannot, you cannot boil it down and say, right, this group, this identity group, whatever it is, you know, these, these gay people or these Muslim people or these Jewish people, it's, it's always them.

The, the trouble, the trouble cuts is that Alexander Solginitzin said the line separating good and evil passes through every human heart.

Yeah.

That is, that's nearer to the mark.

Yeah, but you made a good point earlier when you said that you have these competing factions within the ologarchy.

That's exactly right. This is why a lot of the attempts for global, for globalism, for mass surveillance, for vaccine reliance fail because they are fighting with amongst themselves.

You have the UN and the Fabians and you have the Jesuits and you have black mobility and you have the royal classes and you have the NGOs, like Bill Gates and you have all these factions and they are fighting amongst themselves.

Well, yes. I think there's, there's something, I've been, one of the things that I've looked at in the, in the intervening years, you know, has been like a concept like natural law.

And the idea of, of the, the universe itself is a consciously strives for equilibrium balance, balance in all things.

You know, I mean, we kind of know that for, in our own individual physical health, it's about balance, you know, too much, not good, too little, not good.

But balance, natural law suggests that, you know, a conscious universe wants equilibrium.

And so the mistake that they make, now they are, for what, for absolutely, they are a minority in the same way that the mafia are a minority or whatever, or the, or any other crime syndicate you want to, you know, that you want to put a, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not labeling, you know,

the crime family that originates from Sicily as the, as the source of all evil either. I'm just using it as a metaphor.

But they are outnumbered by the mass of the population. So that's why they have to use subterfugian and trickery because they are, they are massively, you know, they are the few, they are the few and everybody else is the many.

So the, they have the analogy, I suppose, would be that in, in attempting to gain this total control, it takes enormous effort.

It's like, it's like holding a pendulum at its greatest swing that way and trying to keep it there forever.

Because what the pendulum in terms of the, it wants to go is to swing back, but then eventually hang the way it wants to be in the middle.

It's where it wants to go. Or it's like the enormous effort required to hold a beach ball under the surface of the sea.

You can do it, but it takes relentless energy, which is innovating.

And eventually the pendulum is going to swing back and it's going to settle in the middle and the beach ball is going to erupt onto the surface and then just bob.

The universe wants equilibrium and these, they are, are subverting the natural law. They're trying to get to and then forever maintain an inversion of everything that's natural.

They will fail. I mean, that's why it will fail. We happen to be living through the period of turmoil and struggle, which is, you know, some every now and again a generation or two is the lucky or unlucky one that goes through that period.

But the, the, the push to get the total control of everything everywhere all the time by a minority will fail by definition.

So it sounds like you're saying that you see it light at the end of the tunnel and not a train coming towards us.

I think, you know, there's so many aspects to it. You know, I don't believe in endings.

You know, I mean, Hollywood with a lot of us have learned to be suspicious now of the, you know, MK Ultra and the messaging that comes, let's say, out of music, popular music, so called the programming that's there in the Hollywood movie.

And, you know, if you think about it for five minutes, you know, movies, almost all worked towards a happy ending, you know, a conclusion.

But we all know, I mean, if you watch the end of, I don't know, when Harry met Sally or, you know, when, you know, when the couple get together and everything's going to be happy forever, or, or Von Ryan's express, you know, Von Ryan dies on the railway tracks.

But the, but these people, you know, escape to freedom, you know, and Steve McQueen, you know, finally gets caught on the barbed wire and whatever.

But there's a, there's a Hollywood teachers is to think that things come to an end, but you've only got to pause for a moment to think, well, what happens next?

There's always next, you know, what is the daily ground like for Harry and Sally, now that they're together and married, you know, and they will go on to have good days and bad days like everything else.

You know, this idea that things come to an end, I can see how I'm even paranoid about making that symbol with my hands, you know, because there's a whole, there's a whole rabbit hole about that.

You know, go ahead.

Right, right, right. You're, you're a mason.

Yeah, it apparently makes a symbol with my hands.

I'm signaling my, I'm signaling my master's, terrified as you keep my hands in my pocket.

But, you know, so, so, so what you're at. So there are no endings. So you say, is there light at the end of the tunnel, you know, that's what made me think of, you know, von Rijn's express Frank Sinatra and all that.

We will get out of this. It will move on to the next phase. There is no ending. Nothing ends that you know, light at the end of the tunnel.

Yeah, so you merge out into the daylight from the tunnel and then what that doesn't mean that that doesn't mean that everything's going to be happy forever after that you're just on to the next thing we are coming.

Yeah, you might say we're coming through a tunnel at the moment and for sure the tunnel will come to an end.

And we'll come out into the daylight and then that will present the next generations with something else.

You know, they will, they will go on. You know, I think one of the MK ultra programming things that comes at Hallieby's idea that yeah, if you just, if you just hold it together, you'll get to the end. There is no end.

It's just a, it's just an infinite endless timeless process.

That's a very interesting insight. I've never really thought of it like that Neil and there's a, there's a strange segue right back to my very first question about ancient history because you mentioned Graham Hancock and I've interviewed a few few of his colleagues I haven't managed to interview Graham himself.

No, I've tried to get to Graham and I've never managed. Yeah, he doesn't reply to his emails and but what some of his colleagues have argued is that history is cyclical and doesn't follow a chronological timeline from from primitive to advanced,

whereas it goes around and around and around and that yeah, it certainly does. I think that's, I think that tends to be the human animals experience.

You know, I think, I think the, I think the universe and again, I'm just using a shorthand there. Let's not get into the whole whatever flat earth, whatever,

I just mean, you know what I mean by the universe, the everything, right? I don't think it's cyclical. It's, it's a long, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a process without beginning and without end.

But I think the human animal because we are finite, you know, we come from somewhere and then we seem to go away again after a period of minutes or a century, but we tend to come and go.

And so I think the experience of the human animal tends to feel like endings and begin endings and get happy ending at whatever and whatever and whatever.

So I think that's a, that's our predicament. I think that's the predicament of the animal. And for sure, for thousands of years over and over again, some observant individuals have spotted it.

You know, Polybius was Greek and suggested that, you know, in society, you get, you get a good king.

And then that's great. He's benevolent and benign and there's a nice, there's a kind of a Camelot period. But then he gets old, dies and the thing goes down to his son.

And his son's not him. He's not as good as him. He's not as clever as him.

And so he becomes influenced by the other powerful people around him. So you get rather than the monarchy, you get the aristocracy because now power devolves to the aristocracy.

And that might be alright for a while as well. But then you get the aristocrats, sons and grandsons. And they are a bit useless as well. They're just born into privilege.

And so that becomes unsatisfying for most people. So that becomes an oligarchy, right? It's corrupt.

And eventually that goes on for a while. But then the people can't thol it. They can't tolerate that forever. And so there's a, there's an overthrowing of the oligarchy and you get a democracy, which is the people governing themselves.

And then that lasts in the first iteration or so. But then that too becomes, people take it for granted. It becomes corrupted as well. And you get the mob.

You know, you get the power of the mob, the unthinking mob. And then that's chaotic. That's disastrous. And so that descends into the rise of the demagogue.

I suppose a sort of Donald Trumpian figure that arrives and seems to promise the solution to all problems. Just trust me and I'll fix it for you.

But we all know what happens with demagogues, you know, at base, but they're bent. And so that doesn't work. So there's war, chaos. And out of the chaos comes a good king.

So now you've, now you've gone from 12 o'clock all the way around and you're back. But then the process starts again. Now that's just politious.

Now that he was not the first and he was not the last to notice that cyclical sensation. You know, anybody that's read or tried to read Finnegan's week.

You know, James Joyce, great Irish writer. You know, if Finnegan's week actually begins in the mid, you know, riverrun, you know, it begins in the middle of a word in the middle of a sentence.

And within the first paragraph or two, he gives the clue to its vikus, but he's name checking Gambatista Viko, who was a, I think, a 17th century philosopher who suggested that all human societies were the same, that they would start with the time of the gods.

So you would have people, primitives, emotional, elemental, like, like Neanderthals, I suppose, who live in fear of the thunder and the lightning and they take shelter in caves.

And then, so that's the first stage, then you get the time of the time of the kind of the rise of a nightly class and aristocratic.

And that period is then characterized by fighting between an elite clique and the mass of the population.

And eventually, the aristocrats are overthrown and they're replaced by the republic effectively, the democracy, the rule of the people.

But then that fades again for the same reasons that Polybius understands, and then you go back, it becomes the time of the gods again.

So, you know, there are multiple examples of observant people noticing, you know, and then in Finnegan's way, you know, Joyce is nodding to the fact that he understands this, you know, the book is in three parts, really, and it's about that constantly repeating cycle.

You know, so it's part of the human experience. It's our predicament.

And so, to get back to your original point about Graham Hancock and other suggesting that there are cycles, I think it feels that way for us.

Because I do think there's a difference between the way things are and the way things feel.

You know, there's the way that science describes reality.

At the moment, science at the moment describes reality a certain way.

You know, and we've got, you know, balls in space and us living on them and whatever and gravity and so on and so on.

However, I'm yet to meet anyone who feels it like that.

You know, you don't, the world life on earth feels like flat earth.

What it feels like is being on a stationary thing with everything happening around it.

So at the same, so at one in the same time, you're invited to know what science says.

We're on a ball falling through infinity at tens of thousands of miles an hour and all of the rest of it and rotating, you know, faster than a speeding bullet.

It doesn't feel like that.

What it feels like is flat earth.

That's the feeling.

You know, so we're, as human animals, you know, we've got limited perception.

You know, we see a certain frequency of light.

We've got five senses that give us a certain amount of information that really at best let us live long enough to procreate and then you're gone.

And with these blunt tools, we're trying to understand everything in the twinkling of an eye.

So that is the human, the human predicament.

It's very, one of Terry Pratchett's novels for kids is a heart full of sky.

And there's a little girl in that called Tiffany Aiken.

And she's a trainee witch.

And at one point, she's up in the sky on a broom with another witch and they look down and they see that you know, they're uffington white horse.

And there's geoglyph on the chalk lands of the southwest of England.

Right. They fly over that.

And the Tiffany says.

It's not what a horse looks like.

It's what a horse be.

So the it's it's so what she's simultaneously perceiving is that that is a representation of a horse.

But it's not what a horse looks like.

If you got AI to draw, show me a horse where you can imagine what AI would show you, show you a horse.

But that's not what a horse be.

So much more is there in the in the uffington geoglyph.

That's what a horse be.

It's like that thing about the, you know, what science tells us reality is.

But what it feels like to be human and alive are different and sometimes conflicting sensations.

Because of that experience that each of us has.

However briefly and however successfully or unsuccessfully or whatever.

You know, we're trying to come to terms with things that clash.

That clash.

And so you say, you know, is the light at the end of the tunnel?

Well, yeah.

But that won't be the end of anything.

That will just be a period in whatever is beyond the tunnel.

It won't be the end of anything.

It also applies to say the covert era because we were told by, quote unquote, the science that there was a deadly pandemic.

And what we felt and saw was, was nothing of the sort.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's very conflicting all the time because, you know, you're being told something.

By people you trust often or people that you're invited to trust.

But then if that bumps heads with and conflicts with what you feel,

then as an individual and in some extent collectively as a society depends what happens.

There's a feeling of that's not all there is.

That's incomplete.

That narrative is not all there is.

And when that moment comes for the individual or for enough people.

It doesn't have to be 51%.

It just needs to be some people.

And they find each other.

And obviously something like the internet and social media enabled people like us to find each other.

Where we might previously have been isolated.

I mean, I get contacted all the time.

But still to this day, my people who said, I thought I was the only one.

I thought I was going mad.

But I listened to you on on GB news or wherever.

And it kept me sane.

Because I thought, no, it's not just me.

And so, you know, that obviously the internet was created probably malevolently by DARPA and all of the rest of it as a means to harvest data about all of us.

But the flip side of that coin was that at the same time, it enabled people to find each other.

And that has been, and there's been the undoing of the grand narrative.

Because people are going, see that thing I've seen about building back there.

That's Balox that.

And enough people were able to find each other at the same time and share that thought to think, yeah, yeah, it's not just me.

I think that's Balox.

And so does he.

And so does she.

And so does she. And so does he.

You know, and that has, that has kept us, that has kept us going.

But yes, you make a good point that COVID was simultaneously what we were being told.

And then it was, yeah, but when I look with my own eyes, the two things are different.

Now, where is the resolution for that conflict?

We're still trying to work that out.

Give me a final insight.

I am optimistic because I think that all of it is much, it's a much grander experience than we are capable of perceiving in our brief span of time and with our limited senses.

I think there's so much more going on.

And I think inevitably there are, there are big stories that get told grand narratives.

And sometimes in for certain periods, they are benign and they work and they're helpful.

But then, but then that then they, they go sour.

They can go off and they can, they can become, they can, they can be no longer serving the need.

And so, you know, other, other stories rise.

And I think what's happening with the, with the collective coming together that's been enabled by social media and the internet is that people are coming together and beginning.

And it's not an ending. It's just the, it's just the next stage.

People are coming together and realizing that there's a better story to be told.

There's a better story to tell.

And so this, this sour story that's gone bad after a period of time will be, is being replaced in real time as we speak by a better story.

And that, that will, that will carry those of us that want to tell it and take part in it to the next stage.

It will feel like a circle, but it's just a line without a beginning and without an end. That's what I think.

Alright, Neil, how can I follow you?

Oh, well, I'm, I'm on X, for example, I'm at the coast guy.

That's what people call me. I used to make a television series called Coast and people would come up to me in the street and they didn't know my name, but they would say, you're the coast guy.

So I just took that as a, as a badge of honor.

I have a YouTube channel, you find me, I've got a Patreon presence.

You can find me on patreon.com, you can find me on YouTube, just Google my name, just YouTube my name and you'll find my content on my channel.

I do a lot of history, a lot of contemplation of, you know, things archaeological and historical, which for reasons we've been discussing for the last hour or so have, you know,

morphed and metamorphosed and changed over the over the time.

I do a lot of sort of ranting and raving about the iniquities of the present moment.

I interview some lovely people, fascinating people like you. I'll have you on my channel.

We'll talk on my channel. I'll do it.

Yeah, I'm out there. You can find me. And I write books. I've got about 13, 14 books out there. You can find them wherever you find your books.

Your favorite bookshop or online or whatever.

Need a lot of, thank you for joining me in the trenches.

Pleasure Jeremy. At any time, first of many of them.

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