newspolitics

No Kings: What We—and You—Saw at the Rallies (w/ Jim Swift)

Bulwark Takes·Mar 29, 2026·34:55

About this Episode

The Bulwark's own Jim Swift joins Bill Kristol to talk about No Kings.

Hosts & Guests

The Bulwark

Host

Transcript

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Hi, Bill Christel's here from Bullwark on Sunday.

Very pleased to be joined by my longtime colleague

first through the standard and then at the Bullwark.

A founder of OG, a Bullwark guy.

Jim Swift, senior editor, collaborator on warning shots.

Cincinnati Bureau Chief.

Is that your most important data would you say?

To my fellow Ohioans, it is.

They're glad that one of us is here

and I sure saw that yesterday

when we were hiking around the hills of Cincinnati.

How about your betrayal?

Yeah, we'll get to that in a second in those kings.

How about your betrayal?

You grew up in Cleveland, right?

So, isn't it like, is that better to be

from Cleveland to Cincinnati or even worse?

It's sort of the rivalry and stuff.

Even worse, I mean, Cleveland's pretty hard on Cincinnati.

Joke is that Cincinnati is more Kentucky

and they say, Cleveland, you're more like Canada

and both are right and both are wrong.

But it's a friendly rivalry.

Tito Frankone is the manager here now.

And so there's some bridge building going on

between Cleveland and Cincinnati.

They treat you okay, I trust.

Yes.

Good.

So you were at the Cincinnati no Kings yesterday.

I was the one up here in Welfare, Massachusetts,

just west of Boston.

Let's exchange sort of what we thought about what we saw

and what we did of course have seen elsewhere

and read about elsewhere.

What struck you that I'm just curious,

what most memorable moment sign and counter experience there

and you're in Cincinnati at the no Kings?

Sure, well, I followed the no Kings.

It's actually my first one that I've attended,

but huge, huge turnout.

At least 10,000 by my count

and by some other more official counts.

Very long march that kind of went around downtown

as the Cincinnati Reds were facing the Boston Red Sox,

which the game they won, the Reds.

But there were two signs in particular, Bill,

that kind of stuck out for me on the screen now.

And one was, I'm here for those who can't be here.

And then the other one was,

this all ends when enough of us say no.

And the people I talk to,

this all ends when enough of us say no kind of view

was held by a lot of people.

I spoke with Charlie Setcamp,

who's someone that you may know I've met a number of times

who's involved with principals first who recognized me.

And he's just worried about not enough people standing up

and wanting more people to get involved.

And similarly, I posted the picture,

I'm here for those who can't be here on Blue Sky

and I got a lot of responses from people

who do have jobs where they have to work

on Saturday afternoons,

who have family concerns in lives and other sorts of things.

There are a lot of people who wanted to be there, who cut it.

And so those were kind of some commonalities

that I detected in talking with people

who were all very heartened by the turnout.

Now that's great.

And this all ends when enough of us say no is the bad news

and is the Trump's president for the next almost three years.

And in this sense, we don't have a parliamentary system

and his phone numbers could go down further

and people could turn out even more.

And but hopefully the elites, I feel like the public

is now leading the elites by quite a lot.

It's so striking, right?

In terms of turning against Trump, you see the polls

but also in the turnout for the kings

and the elite of the institutions are still accommodating Trump

to a somewhat shocking degree.

Maybe at some point some of them break

and some of the Republicans on the hill, God knows, break.

I was in Waltham, which is west of Boston,

it's where Brandeis is.

Interesting to see a couple of friends who live near there

and so we went to that and that's where they go

and that's where they've gone to the past

and some of their families there, so we went there.

It was interesting because it's Waltham's kind of

a middle class summer, I would say.

It's got some academic upscale types

who have moved further west even than sort of Cambridge,

Belmont, the kind of inner suburbs,

you might say, out to the west of Boston.

But it also has quite a lot of immigrants actually

and there were a fair number there

and more middle class, even working class.

So it was more of a mixed crowd.

Good turnout, I hadn't been to Waltham before

so I couldn't judge comparatively

but they said it was the least as big

as the previous one was cold, it was kind of high 20s.

So a little bit of discouragement

to finally get there in terms of the turnout.

Very nice old Waltham common,

these new England towns all have commons

and there's a nice common in front of the city hall.

I was amused, I went over and I was wondering

what there was a statue there of a soldier

and descriptions on it and stuff.

I walked over and you can see it there.

And I soon was, I don't know,

maybe Civil War, there's a ton of Civil War,

obviously monuments up in New England

and maybe World War I, World War II.

It was the Spanish-American War

or if they said on the, as the monuments

called it the Spanish War Veterans Memorial

and they had the dates 1898, 1902

and then mentioned Puerto Rico, Cuba and Philippines.

It's sort of, it's funny how that's maybe

other people know more about this than I do

but I would say that's been sort of

somewhat forgotten to history.

Those trumpets bring back the Cuba interest, I suppose.

But at the time, there were a lot of names on the backs

of a lot of soldiers fought in those wars

and barricaded in the U.S.

when I forget some of the certain aspects

of American history compared to others.

Anyway, I was struck that the crowd was,

I was struck that it was how sane and sober,

this was true of the previous one, I was that in McLean

but if they don't get all the clean Virginians,

people who worked in Washington,

a lot of extra publicans and more moderate crowd,

you know, and if you will,

then maybe in a lot of places.

So this is the separate sub-Ostant,

very democratic area and a lot of liberal types.

Here I got the typical, the typical response,

the old people recognized me, it was more like,

I can't believe I'm here at a rally, would you?

You know, I was rallying against you 20 years ago,

against the Iraq war, where's the McLean Virginians

a little more as you know, Jen, you know,

a little more people who, hey, you remember me,

we went during the Bush administration,

you know, a lot of extra publicans and barber comms,

stock types.

Yeah, I voted, Chair, I was there yesterday,

actually in McLean with Susan, my wife,

and they were, yes, yes,

because meeting lots of people who we used to be together

on the conservative side,

this is sort of different, this is more liberal,

but obviously very sane, I mean, very balanced,

patriotic, and calm.

I mean, I was very struck by the rich, you know,

you go to, I'm not a big demonstration person,

or a rally person, and probably because in my youth,

I saw the new left rallies,

and I was in high school, a little bit of college,

as before they petered out,

and they were kind of crazy,

they felt they were a little crazy,

and sort of, it wasn't my style to kind of get,

I wouldn't have been involved in the other side politically,

but there's a little foot off, I suppose,

by the sense of thousands of people getting together,

sort of unleashes various passions, and hatred,

and so forth, but there's almost none of that,

I've got to say, I've had a lot of anti-Trump signs,

and ridiculing him, and I guess, not friendly to him,

but, or to Steven Miller or to others,

but I was struck by the sobriety of people,

at a sense that we're in this for a while.

I mean, this was not like, we're going to show up here,

and everything's going to be great Monday.

There's a lot of talk, a lot of people want to know,

what do I think's going to happen on the DHS,

and ICE, I'm the war, I'm the million,

the elections in 26 and 28, I mean, very sober,

I was abused in some White House spokeswoman that said,

Thursday, I think, something about this,

this is Trump's arrangement syndrome, therapy,

or something, I really thought,

the one thing it doesn't feel like

is it any kind of derangement,

maybe you can say if you have a different political point

of view that there are people there,

it's just wrong about there,

wanting not to go to war, whether I had a run or a run,

or about ICE or whatever,

but there was no very few oddballs, honestly,

or crackpots, I think we're only being eyeballed,

but struck me, it was really,

in that respect, it was sort of moving,

I would say, people were serious and sober,

but they were also good nature and happy

to see their friends and neighbors,

and then they liked the funny signs,

making fun of the Trump people,

but also, as you mentioned, the more serious signs.

What was the mood in Cincinnati, middle America there?

Bill, I was so impressed by the 50501 organizers,

and that's 50 states, 50 protests,

I might be getting the last one part,

but like one common goal.

Yeah, I was just really impressed by their organization,

not only just the parade route,

which had I known how long it was,

I might have packed a little bit differently,

it was very cold, but also very sunny,

and I was exhausted at the end of it,

it was like playing around a golf,

and carrying your clubs,

it was, I got it, I'm a granite of it,

it's also my middle age,

but what really impressed me about their organization,

I mean, they had, I would say probably 50 to 100 people

who were volunteers wearing orange and yellow vests,

and they had different meetings rich,

they were all radioed up,

and the police, obviously there was a permit

and the police were escorting the march through downtown,

but like you said, there's always elements of quackery

at any kind of political protest,

whether it's on the left,

or whether you're the Tea Party protesting

Obamacare outside of the house in 2010,

but what I was truly impressed by was,

looking at these signs, you could tell that there were people

within the group that didn't agree with each other,

either on a policy specifically,

or a candidate, for example,

it wasn't really candidate driven,

but luckily you can look at the signs and do the math,

those people aren't gonna agree,

why aren't they arguing with each other,

because it was one cause,

and so there was no attempt really to co-opt this

to make it about just one thing,

and I was impressed by that,

that people kind of put aside their differences,

and that was more left on left than right on left,

for example, but it wasn't co-opted,

it was people who had different views on flashpoint issues

with signs that kind of contradicted each other,

they are marching in peace together,

now granted I didn't get to see how all 10 or 20,000

people were interacting,

but I think I got a pretty good sense of it,

and I didn't see any arrests,

I didn't see any bad behavior,

there was a little bit of a counter protest element

where Trump's supporter was walking in front of it

to kind of troll with Christ's king,

and some people said like,

what are you doing here, go do your own thing,

but nothing in the way that worried me

or I felt was an endangered to anyone's safety,

it was really heartening,

and like I said in my overtime newsletter,

fresh off of our events in Minnesota and Dallas and Austin,

these things really to be corny,

put the wind in our sales of the bullwork, so to speak,

and that's not just a marketing line, it really is,

I mean, when you and I do kind of live in a bath

of this perpetual horrible news cycle,

and we're just so painfully aware of even weird minutia

that doesn't cross most people's news feeds,

it's depressing.

So to go out and see how like,

there was a guy Bob who had about 10 bamboo poles

that were seven feet each,

and he had a fixed flags from Ohio Cincinnati,

but places like Greenland, Ukraine, Mexico, Canada,

and he just gave them out to his friends in the USA.

Yeah, in the US, of course, it was like a super,

it was like the Super Bowl,

so we don't wanna avoid that,

US flag was there prominently,

maybe even a little higher per the flag code,

but this guy had like a belt with flag pole holders

that just from Bamboo, and he was worried about election,

I talked in, he was worried about the midterm elections,

and what Trump's trying to do with the save act,

whether he might be using ice at the poles,

a lot of things to be worried about there,

but I think everyone had their head on pretty soon.

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Straight.

Now that's encouraging.

You know, one of the things I think they did a very good job

with the organizers, so there's a lot of training.

They were also marshals, and Waltham was very peaceful,

and they asked people to thank the police who showed up,

and there were a few cops who were, you know,

basically, you know, there was no issues,

so they were just good to have them there,

and people went up and thanked them,

and yeah, I've struck at the organizers,

I knew the indivisible guys a little bit,

and they were a key element with their many groups involved,

and many different people in different places.

One of those really intelligent things they did,

I think, was, so here there was,

they scheduled most of the no-kings events

in places like Waltham and the Camperature,

elsewhere, sort of late morning,

so people could then go if they wish to the Boston Common,

which is where the big, neutral event was,

more than 100,000 people in Boston, down to Boston,

and they didn't, so they had several big events,

but theapolis was in Springsteen, obviously, in New York,

but unlike other marches, where it's March on Washington,

or March in New York, or some few big cities,

they really went out of their way

to encourage local communities,

and they helped them, I went to the website many times

over the last few weeks, helped them organize,

cut them in touch with each other,

you could sign up to go to McLean,

and they told you where to go,

and they told you what's made some recommendations

about signs, and then they had some available

a few there, and so forth.

So it really was a kind of, it felt like it was.

A lot of people around the nation,

some in very big groups, 100,000,

but many, many, many, and much, much smaller groups

of like 10,000 since then,

even some more like, I don't know, 500, 500,000,

I'm gonna guess it, and Wolfham,

and that's really, I thought that was intelligent,

I mean, it was nice, it felt more like communities

getting together to express their sentiments,

not like a mass, you know, a mob scene kind of thing,

and I think it was intelligent politically,

in this sense, it just makes it seem,

and it really makes it seem because it really was,

more of an effort thing.

They also, I talked about one of the organizers

about this before the last No Kings,

they obviously kept to the same playbook.

They didn't have speeches, I don't know since they had it,

but in the smaller ones, like in Wolfham,

they went out of their way not to have, you know,

a bike in local dignitaries, the local,

you know, they could've gotten this, everyone.

I think it's all in that sort of office,

in the Wolfham area is probably on board with No Kings,

it's all Democrats, and so, you know,

they would've been happy to speak,

and they could've had the leaders of different groups,

and they really understood that,

that changes the character,

then it's a more political,

then you got in, if you've got this group,

you've got to invite that group,

and suddenly you have, you know,

18 different speakers,

and then they're three minutes each,

but they don't stay at three minutes,

and then suddenly it's an hour and a half

standing around listening to speeches,

none of that,

milling around, waving the signs,

like a little bit of a couple of pickup bands,

sort of marching bands, you know,

people with like six instruments,

trombones, you know,

kind of walking through the parade,

and playing fun tunes,

and also some folk songs,

and this land is my land,

and then some patriotic, you know,

songs battle him in the republic and stuff,

and so that was good for the, that was nice,

but they really went out of the way to make it,

but mostly it was just people,

and then, as I say,

if you have people chanting a little bit,

but not even that much,

they really encourage people driving by the honk,

and there's a lot of that,

and that was the noise for mostly people,

but again, think about it,

that's individual citizens in their cars,

showing support, it's not,

they're not chanting in a mob,

the same thing,

there's always something slightly off-putting I find,

about 100,000 people chanting the same thing,

it could be powerful,

but it's also a little bit like, you know,

has a big, you know,

sort of feel of,

you know, when they can also be chanting things,

you don't like, right?

Whereas, people showing up,

not all at the same time,

some at 10.30, some at 10.45,

some at 11, coming in,

going a bit,

saying a lot of their families

and chatting about life in general

before they sort of start,

you know, was turning along in one of the songs.

I mean, it has a real community feel to it

that I think they went out of their way to encourage,

and I think that would,

I think it worked,

and I think it's intelligent to understand politically.

Yeah, we had a couple of speeches in Cincinnati,

but I think that they were smart to avoid

that sort of,

you know, coalition's group trap,

like once you start giving groups a microphone,

where do you draw the line?

And then it's a my group, not important enough.

There weren't groups.

They had some kind of,

like I might be butchering their name,

it was like the Cincinnati democracy singers,

which was like a little choir,

diverse choir of people who were singing folk songs

and other hymns,

and that was really nice.

The organizers spoke a little bit,

and then, I mean, really the main feature,

and I tried to get him to talk,

was a professor Timothy Snyder from Yale,

and he dates, he said that his family,

has been here in Southwest Ohio for, you know, 125 years,

and so he has come to every single No Kings in Cincinnati,

and he spoke at the last one,

and he spoke at this one too,

and gave a very nice speech about, you know,

which is fitting for one of his books on freedom,

and getting people to kind of associate No Kings,

and then the response from the crowd was freedom.

Now, no blue,

William Wallace face paint, though maybe next time,

but it was, yeah, they avoided the kind of coalition's trap,

and we had guys with trombones and whatnot going around too,

but it was just really impressive,

because you didn't get a sense of the size of the scale,

the parade until we started going up

one of the hills back into downtown,

because when we're all around City Hall,

it's hard to know,

because everyone was so densely packed in,

but then as the march kind of made its way,

I'd kind of gone around Great American Ballpark

and crossed over US 50,

and I was on a bridge kind of walking back,

and I'm like, wait a minute, there's a group

going all the way around the underground railroad

Freedom Museum, which is here in Cincinnati,

on the kind of same street in between the baseball

and the football stadiums,

and that's when I realized,

well, you know, I thought maybe five, six thousand

when we were just around City Hall,

but no, it was clearly 10,000 plus,

and so I was just very impressed,

and if you look at the map that you were talking about,

I was looking at that too.

Of course, for my first one,

I had to go to downtown Cincinnati,

as a new Cincinnati end,

but they had ones in Cubbington across the river,

they had ones in Eastgate,

which is kind of mostly kind of working class suburb,

they had one in Mason, they were all around,

and if you look at that map,

it's just so impressive,

just the amount of protests that they had,

and so really you didn't have,

unless you lived in Utah,

or kind of one of the more mountain west states,

you didn't have to go very far to find one of these things,

and really just the scale of it was,

you know, struck me as impressive too.

Yeah, no, that's interesting and important.

What anything strike you about the substance,

that's maybe what issues were on people's minds,

either in terms of just what signs you saw,

so many of the signs are homemade,

and it does, I do think it reflects people's concerns,

much more than if they're handing out,

you know, mass-produced ones,

there were a couple that were sort of available

that had been produced,

and actually the huge majority,

at least where we were, where I was,

were handwritten and had made,

and anything that struck you,

that what issue was more or less dominant,

or surprised you,

we discussed it on the live stream yesterday a little bit,

and there was some question about it,

is how central was the war to people,

essentially, was the war on people's minds?

Yeah, I would say that that,

that's probably one of the top three issues in the signs,

was the war on Iran,

but I would say that a lot of the people

that I spoke to, of course, were concerned about that,

but they were maybe reusing their signs,

because the big fear really is the safe act, right?

And, you know, things that they're trying to do

to metal in the elections,

but one, to your point about the kind of pre-printed nature

of the signs,

I think people were maybe a little wounded

by these accusations of astroturf, right?

And so, you know, I saw a number of hand-done signs

that said, you know, no one's paying me to be here,

I hate you for free,

and, you know, I saw a number of signs like that, you know,

ranging from PG to, you know,

beyond PG-13, let's put it that way,

but, you know, people really resented the insinuation

that someone was paying them to be out there.

And, you know, some of the signs that you'd seen

and walled them about older people, it's like that,

you know, I'm 91 and it's that bad.

I saw a bunch of signs like that,

and, you know, big props, as the kids say,

to the elders in their 80s and 90s who came out

because they, it is that bad

and they wanted to be out there

and show the importance of their presence,

which I found pretty powerful.

Yeah, no, that was, I was struck by that.

Waltham was very mad about that,

they wore stuff and Waltham,

I think someone who had interacted

with anyone with Virginia thought it was more ice focused.

I do think Minneapolis remains very much

on people's minds and the continued ice continues to do

and not just in Minnesota, but everywhere else.

And what they could do, of course,

with this force that, you know,

Trump's disposal is recruiting people

and it doesn't seem to be particularly following any laws

or rules, so yeah, I was struck by people's concern about that,

but I think you're right, people have different,

the same thing is interesting

that that's sort of broken through as their attempt to,

I guess, of course, Trump talks about it all the time,

so why wouldn't it break through?

And then he clearly cares about it.

And it's such a transparent effort

to just deal with a non-problem, you know,

and to, but not to deal with a non-problem

but to suppress the vote basically

and give the feds excuse to come in and do so.

So I'm glad people actually were focused on that.

Yeah, and, you know, I saw a guy

from the American Postal Workers Union

who had a beat up old shirt

that you could tell is an owner of many old t-shirts

that was 20 plus years old

about the importance of the mail-in vote,

which, of course, Trump himself just voted

in that Palm Beach election, which the Democrats flipped.

But, yeah, so they were very interested in the election stuff

and I would say that they were also concerned about ICE.

I mean, just, you know, about an hour and a half north

of here is Springfield, Ohio,

or I've gone a couple times to do some reports.

People were organizing and giving out whistle kits.

Now, I bet Springfield, I didn't check the map

because I wasn't going up there,

but I'm positive Springfield had a no-kings rally.

I would bet my life savings

that there was one in that area.

But that is, whatever one you were about that.

I was interested in that,

with you giving a talk about what does that does

for the election.

So 18 months ago,

Vance had just demagogued the Haitians

and Springfield stuff in a really shameful way.

And we didn't make it up to Springfield.

We talked about it,

but I had to give this talk to this natty and stuff

and it wasn't there that long.

But what's going on up there?

I mean, there hasn't been the crackdown yet in Springfield

and life just goes on or do you have the set?

Well, you were there pretty recently

doing some reporting for us.

Yeah, I was there on the eve of Christy Nome.

She had revoked the temporary protective status

and Judge Garcia had stepped in and, you know,

for an undetermined,

it's stayed for the short term.

So everyone's kind of breathed the sigh of relief.

But, you know, I spoke with Viles,

Dorsainville from the Haitian immigrant alliance up there.

I spoke with Pastor Ruby

from the Central Mission Church.

I went inside the church where they are prepared

for sanctuary.

Should it come to that?

Everyone is scared there.

The same sorts of issues that you're seeing,

but we went up to Minnesota for you.

You were at some of the sites,

but we were raising money for second harvest up there.

People are afraid to leave their homes.

So it's a small version of what's happening in Minneapolis.

And the sense of the community that I got up there

was that everyone recognizes that Springfield

was a dying industrial town

that would be in much worse shape.

Pastor Ruby told me that if Trump goes through with this

and goes in and starts,

you know, after stripping away protective status

from Haitians and sends them all back to war-torn Haiti,

it would set the city back over 50 years.

And they are very appreciative of just the community

contributions that the Haitian community

has brought to that area.

The building growth and housing that it's doing,

it isn't a Detroit situation.

I mean, every small time in Ohio has old rundown houses.

But I was up next to a shopping center

where I was doing some microphone shopping

and watching them build huge new kind of townhouse communities

and whatnot.

So you get the sense that that kind of growth is in part,

largely in part, fueled by Haitians

helping taking over housings and housing in that area

and allowing people to find newer and better housing.

It kind of happens in a kind of gentrification sort of way.

There's a demand and the Haitians are meeting it

both in work and filling the housing

and it's doing pretty well.

And but people are on edge there.

They're thankful for that kind of reprieve.

But the organizers in Cincinnati were giving out whistlekits.

I'm not as worried about ice going around downtown Cincinnati

since the city itself is so blue,

but people are acutely aware that Springfield

could be a smaller version of what we saw transpired

in Minneapolis and the greater Minnesota area.

The Springfield thing, I just remember that in September,

obviously of 2024 and I really thought they can't,

this is surely this is a bridge too far,

surely people are going to repel against it.

So it's so obviously racially motivated

and so obviously a dog whistle

and so obviously addressing a problem,

that's not a problem since the governor and the mayor

were happy to have these Haitians there

and they were law-biting and they were had legally temporary

protected status that's they had applied for it.

If you get TPS, separate types of status,

you have to, I think register, show up every six months

and check in every six to 12 months and you're not,

you're nearly opposite of undocumented

and of people not being able to keep track of you.

You're literally on a list and you show up

and you say I'm here and I'm working,

you're allowed to work with TPS.

That's the point of it, you're paying taxes.

If you break a law, you can be deprived of TPS

and people are if they do something illegal.

So it's not as if they're,

it's not a get out of jail free cart neither.

So in a way you would want people to be on this

if you're concerned as they claim to be

about undocumented people going around

to terrible things and it was so evidently a dog whistle.

And the fact that they got away with it,

I really felt like that, for me that was what I thought,

geez, maybe Trump will win.

I mean, if people aren't gonna be upset about that

and then it was such a, I think in a way an indicator

of what the second term would be like,

just how unembarrassed the authoritarianism would be

in the bigotry, honestly.

First term would help and check somewhat

by different various constraints within the administration

and probably people weren't used to it yet,

but after eight years it really,

well, now we have the second term we have.

I don't know, people were in general hopeful, worried,

some combination, I'm sure, but did people,

I mean, any sense of, I guess they'll be politically

motivated in November, if it's all right, do you think?

I mean, I assume so.

Yeah, I mean, I would say both simultaneously,

hopeful and worried, I was wearing the Bullwork Band Hat

for visibility, because I'm not one of our biggest faces

unless you're really obsessed with the Bullwork

and if you're from the beginning,

you might not know who I am.

Which would be good if you were.

If you are such a person, we give you credits,

we give you a head tip for being yes,

but not everyone.

Yes, it's shocking to know that not everyone is obsessed

with every single person with the Bullwork terrible.

Fair enough, but one lady said, you're not Sam Stein,

I'm a little taller, and I had sunglasses on,

so I mean, kind of white guy, darkish hair,

I could have been Sam Stein, and no Pearl,

so I wasn't Tim Miller, but I did talk to a OG reader

named Blaze, who I did a little interview with,

and he had a funny message, he goes,

Tim Miller's going soft, and he said that in a joking way,

but Tim has a soft, he's hard as Tim goes,

but he's a softy heart, which we all know about Tim.

He's a very loving colleague to everybody,

but it was nice to meet some Bullwork people.

I mean, of course, I know Charlie Sutcamp,

who I referenced earlier from principles first,

but a couple people would just see my hand,

they say, well, Bullwork, thank you for being here.

I love what you guys do, which is just really so heartening.

I mean, you think about, I put this in overtime,

thinking about what our live streams were like

on Thursday night, Bullwork in those early days,

and, you know, kind of the professionalism now

that we're streaming almost every day,

here we are in some day, doing some people show.

You put it in your overtime newsletter, I'd say today,

you mentioned the Thursday night, Bullwork,

which I think was our first effort,

we had the notion that people might like to see us talk,

not just to read, but at the time,

there was really Charlie Sykes this morning,

Shots and JVL's triad, and it could already that one,

and he's those are the two newsletters,

or the two regular publications,

and maybe there were newsletters already,

and then there was Charlie's podcast,

and that was, and then Tim joined,

but I mean, and then the rest of us chipped in a lot,

but for the website, but yeah, you're right,

that was sort of, maybe people would like to see us talk,

you know, just in a kind of more informal way,

not an interview like a podcast,

but two or three or four of us, and I,

yeah, those are Thursday night,

and I guess that was the germ of the whole,

yeah, a lot of the secret podcast,

and the next level, and all the different sort of

intrable work, talking stuff as well,

as obviously the book, what we do is interview,

bring it others, and talk to them,

and get their knowledge, but that was a while ago.

Tyler Reddick here from 2311 Racing, victory lane?

Yeah, it's even better with Chamba by my side.

Race to ChambaCasino.com, let's Chamba.

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