NUFC Podcast: NUFC accounts, stadium lease transfer and Eddie Howe's future - with Mark Douglas

This podcast is part of the Sports Social Podcast Network.

It's a true faith in Cassidy Nighted, podcasting castle produced their 24-25 financial accounts yesterday,

and ever since then, the football media world, particularly the Northeast, has been dominated by

well, a couple of things actually want the fact that Newcastle United seemed to have started

playing the game on movement of assets or sale of assets to associated companies

to bolster their profitability, and we're going to get right into that.

And then, of course, there are David Hopkinson's comments about Eddie Howell,

which were far from convincing to many.

I've got Michael Martin with me today, but also a special guest, Mark Douglas of the iPad,

Mark, great to have you here.

I'll kick things straight off, Mark.

You were in the, I'll call it a briefing, if that's a fair term, with David Hopkinson

and Simon Capra of Newcastle United.

What were your key takeaways from your visit there?

Yes, I mean, fair play to the club for doing the briefing, because a lot of clubs yesterday

put their financials out and didn't put up people, senior people from the club.

So Newcastle deserves some credit for that, especially given the fact that it was

sort of a week after the derby, and you know, there have been questions I think about

the club's direction since then.

I think my main takeaways, the accounts, I think on the face of it look really positive,

that the record revenue is a huge thing for Newcastle, and obviously given the way that

we're moving into a new regime, which will prioritize revenue, they have to kind of do that.

What I took away from the briefing as a whole was, you know, obviously we were

assembled there to talk about accounts.

We ended up talking about moving into other subjects such as CityHouse, Future,

transfers, player strategy.

I felt it was a kind of movement towards a kind of new Newcastle, which we've tried,

I think two or three times now under Dan Ashworth then with Paul Mitchell came in and tried the same thing,

to kind of move Newcastle away from the idea that they can keep acquiring players and

keep bringing players in, and towards this idea that we're going to be good sellers,

we're going to be good buyers, which I think is the message that needs to get out there,

and that was why we were there, was I think the idea of like, look, we need you on this,

we need you on this journey to kind of show supporters where we are and what we need to do

in the summer and things, which I think actually a lot of supporters are already on that

journey and kind of understand that.

I think what the supporters want to see is actually in practice this working,

because at the moment, or we've had his words really from Newcastle,

that we are going to move in this direction.

So it was interesting that they did.

I mean, we had about 40 minutes of a briefing that I believe was given to their

father as well, about the regulations, and what came across to me from there was,

actually, we've all been talking about PSR, we've all been talking about the Premier League.

The bigger picture for Newcastle at the moment is actually these UEFA regulations,

which are a lot more restrictive than the Premier League's new SCR rules,

because you actually, you're only allowed to, the maximum you're allowed to spend

on football revenue is 70% of the revenue that comes in, which is obviously,

it's a challenge for a club like Newcastle.

I think you saw in the financial figure, 72% of their revenue is now taken up by wages,

which would be over the 70% cap that Newcastle has well.

But the other thing that came across in that briefing was how complicated these figures are.

So for example, one of the things that they spent a great deal of time talking to

us about was squad cost, which I think a lot of fans probably don't know too much about,

but every single player in the squad has a cost attached to them based on their valuation

and where they are in their contracts.

So as signing, say, let's say Nick Valtamard is signed for 69 million,

six-year contract, his wages and the amount of time left on his contract

means that his squad cost is around 11, 12 million.

Every player that you sell gives you more headroom of sort of 10, 11 million,

for example, to then go out and spend in the transfer market,

but that doesn't mean you can spend 11 million.

It means you can spend more than that because their squad cost is amortized

over the length of their contract.

So if you sell a player for 20 million, it gives you, say, let's say,

I think it's about 40, 50 million pounds to spend in the transfer market.

So we had a long briefing about that in order to kind of sell as that.

So that was quite interesting.

Then I think we got into David Hopkins and afterwards talking a little bit about

some of the issues surrounding the football club.

And he was a little bit different from how he's been in the past,

I think, in the past he's talked at great length.

And sometimes you almost feel like you start him off with a question

and he just goes into what he wants to talk about.

He was a little bit more clipped this time.

I think there was, he wanted to get some messages out there,

but it felt a little bit different.

It felt like, you know, he didn't want to get into the training ground,

asked about the training ground, asked about the stadium,

and all he would say was, it's not happening today.

That was it. He wouldn't go any further than that.

So I think there has been a little bit of a change in the message from Newcastle.

I think maybe it's time for action rather than words.

And I think that was kind of what they were trying to get across as well.

But obviously it kind of got taken away in the news about the stadium

and the news about Eddie Howe as well.

So for me, I felt, you know, I know it's been sold as bombshell briefing

and it's been sold as all these kind of things.

I actually didn't think it was quite as dramatic as that.

But any time you get a senior figure talking at Newcastle United

and given the big issues that have come to the football club,

of course, it's going to be controversial, whatever they say.

They can't really, there isn't an easy or an easy sell of what has to be done

at Newcastle United in the next phase to get to where they need to be.

And obviously the fact that the manager's future is a little bit under question, I think,

means that we are, I think heading into, I wouldn't say choppy waters in the summer.

But we are, I think it's going to be a very interesting summer.

And there are going to have to be some really difficult decisions and hard calls made

and some gambles maybe taken in the transfer market.

And they're going to have to change the way that they've been doing things for the last few years.

And that, I think, was reflected in the briefing.

Did it really jump out to you in the briefing that news about what they've done with the stadium?

And I believe land on strawberry place as well as there's two things there they've done.

Yeah, so we got the briefing about an hour before the, we got the story,

we got the accounts about an hour before the briefing.

So I had a chance to have a little quick look through that.

And that, that stood out to me immediately.

For one, because obviously it's something that Newcastle have never done before.

Two, it's, it's, it's a major thing, isn't it?

Look, the club no longer officially, the club no longer own the stadium

and no longer own the leasehold that was, that's part of the stadium.

So that's a, that's a huge story.

But the third thing and the thing that kind of jumped out to me really immediately was

they were recording a £37 million profit.

But actually, that's only been possible with £179 million with a profit

that's been banked from that sale.

So actually it's, it's, it's £90 million loss for the year.

Obviously it comes before ESAC.

But then my next thing was, well, does that mean you would have failed PSR

if you, if you hadn't have done this?

And the club haven't denied that.

They haven't confirmed that they would have denied PSR.

They would have failed PSR.

And obviously they've said, we've sold the stadium for the reasons of,

you know, we want to develop and we want to build,

or we want to develop or we want to build a stadium.

That's the reason officially they've done it.

And I believe there's some merit in that that, you know,

that will enable them to get funding to do whatever they want to do next.

It will be easier to do that with the kind of structure that they've got now.

But clearly it's a massive, massive thing.

And what I was quite surprised about was that that was able to be done

so under the radar, you know, because, look, it's a community asset

at the stadium.

Should there not have been some debate?

Should there not have been some kind of communication with people?

Like it didn't matter whether it's necessarily with the media.

They didn't have to kind of tell us everything they're doing.

But should the council, because the council are involved in this,

the freemen are involved in this, the club, obviously, are involved in this.

Should there not be some form of, should there not be some form of consultation on this?

Because it is a community asset.

The stadium is a community asset.

It's not meant to be, you know, obviously it belongs to Newcastle United.

It's never going to be, the council are never going to take it back

and decide, you know, you turf Newcastle off it.

But it feels like a pretty major thing to me.

And it has been kind of just written off in a lot.

I saw a lot of fans celebrating it yesterday saying,

at last we're doing clever things with it.

But actually, it's, I think it's a pretty big thing.

And obviously, long term, you know, if Mike Ashley had done this,

I think people would have been very, very, had a very different feeling around it.

But they do trust the ownership now.

I think they do trust that the ownership.

And I think the ownership of kind of, to be fair,

they have invested a lot of money in it.

And they do have sporting ambitions.

But, you know, I think they should have been some debate around it.

It should have been talked about a little bit more before they actually did it.

And everywhere else where it's been done,

it's come out at the time that the club are doing that.

This was retrospectively, this has been going on for six months.

It's had to go through the Premier League's fair market valuation,

who I believe have put less of a valuation on it than Newcastle have put in their accounts.

So yeah, I think it was, I think it was a huge thing.

It, for me, it was the big thing.

And obviously they, they can, we did ask about it.

And they said, look, we're not actually going to get much of a benefit

in terms of what we can spend moving forward,

because PSR's going anyway.

So it doesn't, it's not about that.

Plus, plus you if you won't recognize it.

Exactly.

They won't, they won't include that when they're analysing Newcastle's wages.

Exactly.

Scott, Scott Costa ratio to turn over won't be a benefit.

But if it did, indeed, mean not failing PSR for the 2425 season

by such a huge figure.

I mean, actually, we don't know how big the figure would be.

It's quite, it's quite hard to work out, isn't it?

But even then, and I'm not suggesting Newcastle had a point in seduction,

there would have been complications.

It would have been complicated.

And I'm keeping you going, bring me in in a second,

but I understand the fan perspective that finally

we're not just letting Chelsea, Everton,

they're a bit different, but Chelsea, Everton, Forest,

Man City are the big ones.

Yeah.

They can take the piss.

So from a fan perspective, when you go and stand at Manchester City

four times or whatever, three times in the season

and see them score 11 goals to one,

or two, you think, why don't we at least try and do the same things

to understand that?

But I also understand and agree with the point of you've made there that

we are very, very reliant as a football club now

on a support on the goodwill of an entity

that wouldn't have nothing about in reality.

And I think that's someone else in true faith,

basically said we are 0.9% of PIF's international investments

currently.

So it's such small fry to them.

At least financially on paper, it might not be reputationally.

It creates a lot of uncertainty.

In addition, if the club do build a new ground,

do we therefore also now assume that Newcastle United

won't own that ground either?

Because if all of the development costs are going through

the associated entity through PIF,

it's fine, because I think some people said,

oh, if you don't know, it's in James' park.

That's fine, because they're going to build a new one.

But then if they build a new one,

will that be a home for Newcastle United,

as well as potentially some other PIF project?

Well, don't know.

I'm not trying to just present a worst-case scenario,

they just present some of the things that have gone through my mind.

Yeah.

Mick, just bring you in thoughts on everything Mark said?

Well, a few things.

I came to start with the whole ludicrous position

of moving assets around the spreadsheet

to comply with Aubrey.

Talkets on benchmarks around what days

and what isn't the correct amount of money

to spend on a football club.

And I have a certain amount of sympathy for Newcastle United

in this regard, because they're doing this,

because they're kind of stymied from bringing in sponsorships

through the network of contacts, you know,

through associated partner transactions, et cetera.

So it is a ridiculous situation.

Yesterday was the same day that evidence,

so the women's team moved another part

to another part of that spreadsheet.

So it is ridiculous.

The football could have had more money coming into it

if Newcastle were allowed a different scope

with the advertising and sponsorships, et cetera.

And then there's the other question, kind of, a half,

is, well, why didn't we do this a few years ago?

Why didn't we have the foresight to move stuff around

as we did?

And then we maybe would have still had Anderson and Mintier

at the club, which would have saved us a lot of money.

So there are those questions,

and then you've got to kind of start asking

about the competence of people who were there previously.

And the final point is, our thoughts in James's part

would have been worth a lot more than what it's gone for.

When you talk about how much it would cost to build a new stadium,

it seems to be checking feed really with what they've got there,

but I'm not an accountant.

I don't know what that made up and how it's calculated, et cetera.

I think on the point about being a community asset,

that's a really interesting one,

and I wonder whether or not there was something went on with Fab.

I never heard about anything.

It should have been released if it was,

and I'm not saying it was, and they've kept it,

or anything like that, of that nature.

But it seems to fall within the gamut

of what a community asset would be.

I know it's barges, I know it's shirt colours,

I know it's names, et cetera.

Whether or not it's kind of who owns a stadium

is a different matter.

But I'm kind of trying to troll me,

and it talks about what happened when Gagley

and went to the journey with Bury,

and I kind of get the detail of that up to me,

took to the forefront of me thinking,

having just heard Mox,

really great point about community assets.

So it's a kind of,

I think the point is we would have definitely failed PSO,

if it hadn't been for that kind of jiggery pork

around the spreadsheets and moving assets, et cetera.

What it says about the future ownership, et cetera,

I don't think we've had enough time to reflect on that

and understand what's going on at the moment,

in an ideal world it just shouldn't be happening.

But this kind of creative accountancy

is kind of, is an unwanted consequence

of the rules, I suppose.

People celebrating it, I don't understand why

that would be the case.

We would have failed PSO,

and then the question is,

on the current amount of money that the club is making,

yes it's gone up,

but it's gone up not by very much,

I don't think,

and I wonder whether or not some of the things

that Hopkinson has been finding within the club,

Silverstone Leven, et cetera,

maybe there was a rare about that,

about what they could be doing,

I'm speculating of course,

but I'm hoping that by this time next year,

when we're looking at this year's accounts,

they've gone up by a significant amount

because what were in this spinning kind of situation,

this recurring picture is,

is yeah, we're going to have to think about selling players

because we can't pay them what other clubs are offering them

and we'll be talking to their agents about,

let's be honest, they're all money grabbing goals,

so their agents and the players,

you know, I'm sure this time last year,

Ezek was kind of thinking,

looking at these lips and saying,

I'm going to get 300 grand a week or whatever it is,

it's Liverpool,

and I'm only on half that at Newcastle,

I want to be aware,

I was promised to dump, blah, blah, blah.

So, we're in this kind of fix

and I get Mark's point about selling smart

and all of that kind of stuff,

but I will say in my life time,

whenever we've sold a star player,

it's been a disaster,

and I'll go back to Mark Donald,

so sold Mark Donald in 77, I think, 76, 77,

got relegated two years later.

Likewise, Waddle,

Beardsley, Gascoyne,

in the 80s, got relegated in

because the money was squandered

in the late 80s on Robush.

Goodbye.

Goodbye.

Yeah, bye.

Yeah, bye.

You know, where does an Ezek

has led to a disastrous season

and probably disrupted the thinking

of people in the squad,

you know, a bit of players like,

well, why is he going?

And then set against all of the other stuff

around stadium,

training ground,

which Hopkinson doesn't want to talk about.

That's not very encouraging either, is it?

So, I've kind of rattled on for a few minutes

a bit.

I think it's a big pause.

Yeah, I think it's a really interesting point on PSR

and would they have failed it?

Because that was my original thought

as they would have failed it

and they would have massively failed it

and they would have,

but I was thinking back last night

to when quite a lot of the briefings

and the things that people within the club

were talking about around PSR

and it was always the impression

that it's not a problem.

We won't fail it.

But this process with St. James's Park

had been going on for six months.

So, I'm presuming that they knew

that this was coming

and this was going to help them with PSR.

So, probably I think what would have been

what would have happened

is they would knew that they would have had

to sell a player before the deadline,

which is kind of the end of June, isn't it?

So, my theory at the time was

they probably would have cashed in on ESAC

or sold somebody else

because the clubs, they would have probably

put him out there

and they would have maybe got

£30 million less for ESAC.

Now, actually, would that have been

the big disaster given what we knew

was coming down the track

because they did sell in for £125 million

which Hopkinson said was a good sale

in the briefing, which I think was

possibly a little tone deaf

because in terms of black and white

it looks like a good sale

but actually knowing what we know now

and the effect that it had, the impact

that it had on the summer

and what they ended up spending them

was that a good sale.

Well, it wasn't.

I think if they had a sold-in

for, say, £90, £85 million or whatever

and had some money to play within the summer

and sort of gone into the summer

in a different space,

maybe it would have been different.

But I think that's probably why

they equivocated over the PSR point

because they were saying

well, we knew it was coming.

So, that's why, yes, it looks like

we would have failed it without it

but we probably would have done things differently

because obviously we all remember

last January and actually this January just come,

last January they didn't sign anybody today

and it was kind of, they sold down

me around this sold Lloyd Kelly

in actual fact.

I think they made some money in that January

to kind of, and they were saying that we needed

to do that to pass PSR and we were looking at

how could that possibly be when

you haven't signed anybody in the summer either

but actually that's kind of what it was

and Mick made a really good point there

about by the way about moving things on spreadsheets.

I sat through that 40-minute presentation

and I sat there and thought

like as a journalist, it's my job to understand this

and I'm kind of getting my head around it

like supporters just want to come

and watch football, like how can they possibly

get their head around some of these

ridiculous regulations now?

It's just, to me, with footballs eating itself,

there's a team of lawyers and accountants

at Newcastle United now

whose sole job is to work out

a squad cost of a player.

It's so far away from three o'clock on a Saturdays

isn't it now?

We're kind of doing this mental arithmetic

and it feels like the people within football love this

because it's creating a lot of jobs,

it's creating a lot of money for people

to kind of leech out football

and we talk about agents and yes of course

there's some of them are a problem

but actually how many lawyers and accountants

are making an absolute fortune out of football now

in UEFA's offices in Switzerland

and in the Premier League and London

and actually speaking to the Premier League

they're trying to move away from the idea

of it being all about that with the squad cost ratio

but it's so complicated

because you sit there and talk to people in football

and they go, you don't understand it's like this then.

Well, if I don't understand and it's my job to understand that

and I talk to people, how are fans

supposed to understand?

I've done a couple of bits, I've done a piece today

trying to explain it as best I can but it's difficult

and I just think it's like VAR, all of this stuff

it's like football's got to be really careful

because it is moving so far away from

what happens on the grass

and I think people are just going to get fed up with it

if it moves too far in that direction

and we are running that risk I think.

Yeah, I totally agree

and one of the interesting things about yesterday

is actually not you, but when the stuff first came

so I didn't know anything was dropping before 90M tomorrow

because I'm not a football journalist

90M of work, busy day ahead, oh dear.

This stuff all came out.

In the first couple of other people

who I'm not mentioning their names,

the first couple of pieces I read,

the stuff about the transfer of the lease

was paragraph six or seven.

It was almost like the least important thing on by the way.

This has happened.

Always with this kind of stuff

and I don't like having to cover it particularly.

But it does, the main message I got from the whole thing

is actually performance on the pitch

is deeply consequential

in a way that probably other sports in other countries

it isn't.

So in 23, 24,

the last week we have

Brighton at home,

Magnonite at away and Brentford away

and I think I'm correct, I remember,

if one or three would have qualified for the Europa League

that season

and we didn't, we're shit against,

funnily enough, Roberto Deserbys,

Brighton who had nothing to play for.

We're 12th or something.

We're disastrous against Tanau

because Magnonite is in a very consequential game

because all the Manu fans I spoke to before that game

and Manu fans I know were telling me,

if he loses tonight, we'll bet him before the Cup Final.

They've been so bad that they lost.

They've fallen in like Crystal Palace the week before or something.

They were so bad it was like,

we can't let this bloke remain in charge

for the Cup Final.

And then they beat us pretty comfortably as it happens.

And then when the Cup Final against Man City

which no one saw coming,

which noxney cast you know,

if they were of confidence.

And then when the pressure is off,

we're going to beat Brentford.

To secure what we thought was Europa conference spot

and then the following weekend all goes wrong.

But my point is,

this is particularly relevant because of this season.

So in 23, 24,

we were injury ravaged,

we were, we didn't, you know,

it was Eddie House first, European,

not just Eddie House,

all of the coaches and staff pretty much.

A lot of the players hadn't played in European football before

was a total culture change.

And we've got one of the hardest Champions League groups

in the history of the competition.

Considering that PSG and Bruce Edorman's

met in the semi-final of the competition

later that season.

Edorman should have won it.

To bring us to this season,

it just kind of proves to me that

one, the rules that you've just both alluded to,

in theory, exist to protect football clubs.

But how can a football club,

particularly in Newcastle United's position,

realistically plan for a future,

even if that future is literally the next season,

where the slightest of underperformance

as in this season hasn't been the slightest of underperformance

so far.

But even so, the slight,

you're talking about Astonville last year,

goal-definitely Castle Qualified

for Champions League on goal difference.

That's a bad,

referring decision.

Yes, yeah.

Exactly.

You know, you're one injury away.

A refereeing decision, a VAR call,

a bit of bad luck away from financial situations

that are deeply, deeply consequential

for the future of the football club,

and therefore the supporters of the football club.

Just seems to me, I'm keen on your take in your time.

It just seems unsustainable.

You're either there and you've got the money.

You're either Liverpool.

I think, I don't know if it was your start mark,

but I read somewhere that Man City's commercial revenue.

Never mind their prize money.

Never mind their gate receipts.

It's more than Ecastle's whole turn of it.

So they're okay.

They're okay.

That's not going to fall off a cliff.

But if Ecastle are Astonville or in Theory Everton,

or any of the clubs in Theory West Town,

but any of the clubs that aspire to break into that,

even if you try and break the mold,

the consequences for failure are so extreme.

It's almost impossible.

And if you're ready how, for example,

we want to get under how after this question,

but if you're ready how,

you know, his whole summer next,

he's seemingly stays in the job.

His whole summer transfer plans.

Well, I would like to think they knew their transfer targets now.

Impossible.

Impossible because the consequences for failure

are so extreme, it's almost as bad as getting relegated.

It seems to me.

Yeah.

And one of the major themes coming out of the briefing,

which again was buried because there was one or two sort of

headline things.

One of the things that was said to us was

that what we do in the summer will depend massively on

where we finish and whether we get into Europe or not.

So whichever competition they're in,

it will impact on what they do in the summer.

So if they're not in Europe,

I think it will have a massive consequence on what they have to do in the summer.

I think it's inevitable they will have to sell somebody

in order to bring players in in the summer

if they don't get into Europe.

Given, like the problem is, as you've alluded to there,

is it's the UEFA rules.

Because Newcastle wants to stay within the UEFA regime

because even if they don't get into Europe next year,

they want to be in Europe every year.

So they can't just go and spend and front load all their spend

and go to the top level of the Premier League Cup,

which is 85% of you scored because they could do that

and go out and spend a load of money this summer

and still be comfortably within the 85%

which you're allowed in the Premier League.

But they would have a massive problem then the next year

with the UEFA, with getting into the UEFA regime.

So Newcastle have to have this discipline,

whatever they do over the next two, three years.

And it is going to be a squeeze.

And if they, obviously next year,

they'll have the Champions League revenue in the accounts.

So there is going to be a record revenue.

So going back to what Mixed said there about like,

it's a small jump that they've had last year.

But you have to think that that was based on the previous year

when they had all the Champions League revenue.

This year, they're going to bank at least 60, 70 million just

from the Champions League kind of prize money

and match their revenue as well, which is going to be a huge thing.

But unlike Man City, unlike Arsenal,

they can't assume that they're going to have that every year

because it's based on Eddie Howe overperforming

to be honest with you in terms of his wage bill.

And obviously now having five teams in the Champions League

which we didn't have before.

So that's all changed as well.

So at least really difficult.

And I totally agree with you.

You go back to Manchester United spending heavily in the summer

and being able to outbeade Newcastle for players in the summer

based off their commercial revenue.

There's no way that you can turn around and say

it's all about sustainability.

And of course there is an element of that.

But it's there to protect the teams

that have been in there for a long time.

They didn't want another Manchester City coming along.

They didn't want another Chelsea coming along.

And ironically, I don't think that was ever PIF's plan

for Newcastle was to spend a load of salary money

to take Newcastle to be this kind of big vanity purchase.

But that's what they assumed was going to happen.

So that's why these people were there.

I've just put you on that then.

If that wasn't the PIF plan, what do you think it was?

I think the PIF plan was always to invest money in infrastructure

and to build a club, to build out the club

what they're doing at the moment in terms of the commercial side of it

and to put money into kind of infrastructure and to put money

into kind of building up departments, the football department,

the commercial department, and investing the squad

in a measured way in which they would be able to kind of do this

because when we were talking to them very early on

that when the takeover was kind of first denied,

I remember sitting there and the briefing that we got was

there will be 150 million pounds spent

over the first three years in the transfer window net.

And I sat there and thought,

that's not actually that much money in general terms.

So the idea was always to invest in a football club

to build it out, I think, was what we...

It got lost.

It got lost in the general sort of scheme of things

because everybody was talking about Richard Stone

as in the world and PIF and Rubens and this.

But I don't ever think that was necessarily the plan.

The reality as well as when they first tried to buy

the football club, we weren't in relegation trouble

and when they bought it, we were deep in the shit.

And of course, I studied it.

And what happened in that first few years was

they spent an awful lot of money.

They probably spent money thinking down the line

that we will sell Bruno.

We will sell...

I mean, he was the big one, wasn't he?

But they probably did think we'll sell,

we'll resell ESAC as well.

I mean, we sat in with Dan Ashworth very early on

in the kind of first project that he talked about.

Look, we can't...

I mean, you go back to the quotes.

We can't worry about selling somebody

because we would just reinvest it in another kind of player.

The problem that Newcastle have had down the line is

and the failing that PIF have had is

the executive and the governance hasn't been good enough

because they've gone through three directors of football.

They've gone through two CEOs

and Eddie Howe has kind of come in

and he's been given a lot of power

and then it's kind of power's been taken away

from him with Paul Mitch

and then he's got the power back in the summer

short notice in the radio.

So that's where the problem has been.

I don't think the investment that they've put into the project

is the problem.

They've put a lot of money in.

They've put a lot of money in.

They've built the commercial team.

They haven't done the stadium yet.

I think the training ground is going to happen very, very soon.

They haven't done the stadium yet

but they've kind of...

That's what PIF is all about.

They're ticking a lot of boxes, going through committees.

That was kind of...

I thought it might take a while with that

because it's so thorny that whole subject.

The big problem has been

they haven't got the CEO right.

They haven't got the director of football that they needed to get.

My feeling is...

And you can always look stupid with this

because I felt that the CEO was here for a long time.

My feeling is this is more of a kind of...

It feels more solid destruction now.

Ross Wilson in my dealings with impressive guy

knows the situation, unflustered by a lot of the things

that are going around.

Doesn't seem overly bothered about the Sandro Tanali kind of noise around it.

They're kind of like, you know,

look, we'll do what we've got to do

as opposed to ESAC last summer, which was panic stations when it became obvious

what was going to happen there.

That's been the problem.

They haven't had a vision.

They haven't stuck to the vision.

Paul Mitchell leaving in May, June.

We knew at the time that looked really, really bad.

Ended up being really, really bad.

The fact that Darren Eals obviously, you know,

wasn't well enough to continue in this job as well,

made it a double whammy.

And the people who kind of ended up having to step in,

I felt sorry for them,

but they didn't make probably the right decisions for Newcastle long-term.

So that is my...

That's been where I think they need to improve

and to be fair to David Hopkins and the way that he was talking this week.

You may not have liked the quotes,

but he does sound like a man who's kind of got to grips

with some of the challenges that the club have to do.

Now he has to deliver on that.

We've heard a lot of words.

They've got to deliver on it now.

They've got to do what they say they're going to do now

and that's the next big challenge.

Are you thoughts, Mac?

I mean, that's a very kind of discursive description

of what's going on at the club,

and I hung on to every word.

It was an excellent kind of summary of where the club has been

and where it's going to.

This summer, I think, is going to be a difficult one

because, let's be honest, we're not going to get in the Champions League.

Europa League would be a immense achievement

from where we are now,

so we're definitely going to lose some players.

And look, last season, we lost ESAC

when we had qualified for the Champions League

and we're off the back of winning a trophy.

So that was...

We'd probably never been in a stronger position in modern times,

and then we lose a world-class striker

and we're all over the place.

I think what you've just touched on, Mark,

is very interesting in terms of the vision

and how they go about it,

because we're almost five years in,

and I'm still not sure what the plan is,

how they're going to do things,

and I hop on endlessly about training ground stadium,

about wider investment in the Northeast.

All of those multi-club models,

all of this kind of stuff,

and it just seems as though we're in the first six months of the takeover,

and we've never moved on.

We have had two CEOs, by name,

we've probably had three,

if you include Amanda Stavley,

who led in the early days.

So, and he's done...

Hopkinson has got less than 12 months

in his rules start in last September,

and what worries me about him,

I'm glad to say that you've got some confidence in him

because I have my doubts.

I would just like to have got somebody

who's run a Premier League club before,

so I think he has to learn about English football,

and he has to learn about when you're castly and aided,

from the start,

so I wonder whether or not that's a problem,

and kind of things he said this week about

were not looking to replace Eddie Hell at the moment.

At the moment thing is a kill, isn't it?

I mean, there's a different frame of former words

that could have been used,

which were all under pressure to deliver

from this club club, from me, down to everybody.

That sounds much better, doesn't it?

But so, I think that was unhelpful.

It puts pressure on how,

and let's be honest,

I'm not a kind of how fanboy,

as I keep kind of saying,

but if Eddie Hell was to leave,

you'd have another top job within six months.

It's as simple as that,

and we would be going into a place where we're taking gambles

on managers because we're not an elite club right now,

and we can't attract elite managers,

so be careful for what you wish for

is something that I hate here,

but I think we have to be careful,

and we have to look at what's happening in other clubs,

and what has happened in other clubs.

The point about, Mark,

makes about being so kind of volatile

about what your plans will be,

and how they'll shift in the short term

in terms of whether or not you qualify

for the Champions League,

or the Europa League,

or the Conference League, etc.

It's so well put,

because the top clubs,

the cartel of clubs that are running the Premier League,

they are kind of all,

I mean, the love being in the Champions League

don't get me wrong,

but they're almost insulated from that

with this massive commercial revenue

that they've got,

which prevents them from failing.

I would argue,

Manianite,

it should have been relegated

in any other circumstances,

how badly they've been running the last decade,

but they haven't been,

because they're able to buy themselves out of trouble

by second useless managers,

appointing other useless managers, etc.

But we're not able to kind of feather bed

or any potential failure,

like those clubs.

So it is, I keep saying this,

on these podcasts,

it's a rigged game,

and we have to work out our own picket,

but I am expecting players to go in the summer,

and that comes on the back of season ticket prices,

going up significantly,

and so it's kind of,

David Hopkins has got a hard sell

and kind of reminding us of the economic realities

of what's going on in football,

but at the same time,

saying,

we are asking you,

you know,

you're going to lose Sandro Tanali

for organ and sake,

or Tino,

Liv Romendo,

or Bruno,

but at the same time,

and we're going to take punts on players

who are not elite,

who are going to go back to where we were,

trying to sign players with potential,

but by the way,

you're paying more for your season ticket

than they may be paying on the Liverpool Cup,

and all of that kind of stuff.

So it's a hard sell,

and it will change the main set of supporters,

supporters will not be as forgiving of failure,

and that's understandable,

and inevitable, I would say.

Yeah, I think,

for me,

it's what they could really,

what would calm everybody a little bit,

and we talked about the training ground just there,

is one of these big infrastructure projects,

we see some actual 100% progress on it,

because then you sort of say,

and it's not just about what you're doing in the squad,

and look,

I think I was kind of thinking about it on the way over,

what Eddie Howard managed to achieve in the last three years,

two Champions Leagues,

winning a trophy,

getting to a final of the Carabell Cup,

getting deep in the Carabell Cup last year,

and getting to the Champions League on paper,

this is a club moving forward,

but the problem is,

when you scratch underneath the surface,

if Eddie Howard does go,

and we take punts on another manager,

who's, you know,

let's be honest,

it could be an era,

well, it could be a Glazner,

I don't think it would be a Glazner,

but it could be something like that,

who, yes, a Glazner's won the FA Cup,

but the lead positions that they've been in,

and not what Newcastle aspire to,

I mean, Eddie Howard has talked about 2030,

being the Vision 2,

actually credibly challenged for the title,

which I just think is madness,

because that's not going to happen.

If you go out,

and you say,

the training ground is being built,

and we see spades in the ground,

and we see something there,

I think that comes a lot of this down,

and fans start to think,

yeah, we can see it,

there is going to be a legacy from this.

The stadium is,

where the stadium is,

I think that, actually,

I think we will have a decision on the stadium

by the end of the year,

give them a call.

I'm having a full month.

Yeah, I know.

I'm hanging myself out to dry here,

I know.

I think there's a bit more urgency on it,

is what I'm hearing from behind the scenes,

and they've kind of done all that.

But that is not going to happen for five or six years,

whatever happens.

The stadium move is not going to happen until,

I mean, we've got the euros in 2028.

They are going to be at St. James's Park,

the current version of St. James's Park

with maybe tarted up a little bit.

So it's not, you know, two years is not much.

It's going to be four or five before we see that.

The training ground could be open,

not next season,

but the season after.

And that then becomes an elite,

you know, you have a hotel there,

you have all this business,

you can ship in signings,

and rather than taking them down to the training ground

at the moment,

which is, you know, it's, it's okay,

but it's not elite.

Rather than saying,

we'll take you here,

and we'll put you in a hotel in the city centre.

You say, right,

you can stay at this amazing facility we've got.

You can see what we've got.

We're doing all these things.

That will make a massive, massive difference.

So they have to press the green button on that relatively soon.

It has to be kind of summer, I think.

We have to see the plans.

We want to get behind something as a city,

as a support, as a kind of media.

We want to be able to say,

this is what they're doing.

The training ground is the easiest win,

and it does feel like things are kind of moving on that.

Okay, well, I'll have to push you on there,

the Hopkins and Howe comments,

because we're near the end.

I thought they were incredible to be honest with you,

and you were right, you were,

you said earlier on that, you know,

they almost over,

in fact, I'd say they did overshadow

the release of the accounts in this transfer of land,

because what I would say is,

our back last night,

and watched his talk sport interview with Jim White

from January, maybe, December or January.

It was February, wasn't it?

It was February, wasn't it?

Yeah, because it was the second leg of the man's city camera.

Because it wasn't that long ago,

it was the start of February.

And the main thing,

the main comment,

Eddie Howe is our guy.

That was Eddie.

He said it over and over and over again,

Eddie Howe is our guy.

And the most natural thing in the world to me

when I'm sure he was put a question by you or colleagues

about Howe,

he could have just said,

I've heard him answer in February,

Eddie Howe is our guy.

And I think he would have left him alone,

would have just moved on,

it might not have even,

I might not have even known the comment existed.

But in fact, what he said is,

I don't have the quote in front of me,

but he's essentially was,

we're not thinking about Eddie Howe's position yet.

And then he also said,

he expects a very strong answer the season.

That, I'm not having that as a miscommunication

or a misquote,

or, you know,

because you were in the room and we weren't,

I agree, he should have an expert,

as we all should,

particularly what we've just witnessed a couple of weeks ago,

we should have a strong answer the season

with players coming back with one game a week.

But that looks like it's piled load of pressure

on Eddie Howe, what do you think?

Yeah.

And so the first question was kind of,

it was interesting because the framing of the question

was around after the derby.

So they mentioned the derby in the question.

So I think,

going back to Mick's point there

about David Hopkins and learning about English football

and stuff, I think he kind of gets,

given the blowback from both of the derby defeats,

there's that sort of acknowledgement

that the derby defeat means more than losing to Everton

or losing to Brentford.

So I wonder whether some of the first quote was,

we understand the derby defeat,

how much it meant.

He was asked to clarify the Eddie Howe quotes,

because it was like,

you know, that doesn't sound quite as,

you know, as steadfast as it was before.

And there's no way like it was,

you know, my,

I like to think that you kind of sit in these things

and your ears prick up when you hear a certain quote

said in a certain way.

And my first thought was,

that was not as strong as it could have been.

And it clearly wasn't.

And then when he gets the second chance to have another,

another go at it, he said,

his first quote was,

I don't have a stance on Eddie Howe's future.

Well, you know, that is a kind of weird,

it's a weird one to say.

And I think they were talking about him being

their Bruce Springsteen in kind of,

you know, the end of last year as well.

And then when he has the second chance to talk about it,

he's kind of like,

we haven't got the bandwidth to talk about his future at the moment.

We'll talk about the future in the summer.

So it felt deliberate to me.

It did feel like this kind of,

you know, I think there's been a culture in there

since he came in of keeping people on their toes,

saying we've got to expect a lot.

But it's a different yardstick

when you measure against Eddie Howe.

And maybe at the moment,

Eddie Howe needs to feel supported

because he knows, you know, he's a guy who emotionally feels it.

I think when they lost the Brentford,

there were a lot of questions asked internally.

And I think Eddie Howe would say himself, probably.

And what he did say, didn't he quote and said,

if I'm not wanted here, I will go.

You know, if I feel like I'm not wanted,

if I feel like I can't take it forward anymore, I'll go.

So you know, he's the kind of guy

who needs to feel supported.

And yeah, I think you can ask that question.

It's interesting that when we kind of,

we came about out of brief,

and obviously there was an embargo on it

for nine o'clock on Tuesday,

when we had the meeting on 10 o'clock,

I think 11 o'clock on Monday.

So there was a lot of back and forth.

All the judge, we all do this.

We all come away and come,

did you think that was the same as I did?

Because you have to kind of like, you know,

there is that bit of you thinking,

like, am I just kind of over-reg in this?

So then I went to some sources of the club

and sort of said, you know,

where are we standing?

And it was road back a little bit.

So one of the quotes that came up to me was,

we still see him as part of the solution.

But my kind of feeling that that was,

why didn't you just say that then?

Why was it?

And I wonder whether there's a little bit of new castle

kind of acknowledging that there's some difficult decisions,

difficult conversations that we had at the end of the season.

We talked to a little about the selling part of the club.

Does Eddie how want to be part of a club

that is selling its best players

and bringing in untested players,

given that his preference has always been to sign players

with Premier League pedigree.

So I suppose you may be throwing it back on Eddie how,

and do you want to still be here?

And maybe there was a little bit of that thinking there

of like, actually, it needs to work

for everybody at the end of the season when you see the model,

when you see the kind of players that we want to sign.

Does it work for Eddie how?

Does he still want to be here?

Which I think he does, I'm pretty sure he does.

And interestingly, the noises that come back

from the kind of football department

are that Eddie how is absolutely not under any pressure.

He's our guy, we want him.

So it's quite, I think there's a lot of dynamics there.

The quotes were not,

they were not as strong as they could have been.

And like you said, it did, to me, it reflected a slight shift

given that, you know, look, we'll reflect,

we'll reflect to the end of the season.

Season hasn't gone how we got, how we need it to go.

They need to be in Europe every season.

So he is under a little bit of pressure.

I think it was a little bit unhelpful

given that he's coming back after, you know,

the week after next when he first talks

and he will be asked about it.

Of course he will.

And I don't think he's what he needed at the moment.

I think they could have just sort of flanneled it a little bit

and been a little bit stronger.

And especially when then they row back and say,

look, we've said there's no conversation.

Why is house future under doubt being the main headline

on the back page?

And I don't think they were particularly happy

with some of the headlines that kind of came out of it.

But, you know, I think it's fair.

You've said it.

Alex said it.

Mixed it.

You guys looked at the quotes

and came up with the same conclusion that we did.

And we were in the room and he had two bites of the cherry.

So I think they've got to kind of wear that.

And yeah, I don't think he is.

I think what they want is for Eddie how to be in charge

next season.

That is the ideal that they want.

They want to strung into the season.

They want to be in a situation where he's leading them.

And I think they need that because going back to the PIF thing,

do you want to go into a manager?

Do you want to be trying to get a manager at the same time as

Man, United are trying to get a manager.

Liverpool potentially trying to get a manager.

You know, lot of clubs, Chelsea.

Chelsea, yeah.

You know, it's going to be, you know,

there could be, I think, Real Madrid.

Real Madrid trying to get a manager.

So you're talking about, and some of the targets

that would normally you would think would come to Newcastle

like a near Iolo or somebody like that.

Well, you might have other options as well.

So where are you going to go to get a manager?

And I know a lot of people listen to this will go,

well, we Eddie has done his time.

He said, Mix said it.

Absolutely right.

If he does go, he will get a top job.

He will get a top job.

There's no doubt about it in my mind.

He's not going to be scratching around getting, you know,

getting a job that's, you know,

not going to end the worst time.

He's not going to end the worst time.

I think he's going to end up at Liverpool.

Someone like that to be perfectly honest.

So in my opinion, I think they should keep him.

I think it was too wooly around his future.

I think they should have said he's still our guide

because that is their message that they're projecting.

They subsequently projected.

They should have said that in the first place.

And like you said, I don't think things have...

I don't think the material circumstances

have changed from the February.

We knew the problems that the football club had.

We knew the challenges that they faced in the future.

It's been obvious.

I think I've said it was Simon in some of the podcasts

that we've had earlier in the year.

I was like, at the start of the season I was saying,

I can see them going on a run.

It's within them.

And then I think we got to about November December

and we were kind of talking.

And I said, I don't have confidence

that they're going to go on a long winning run

like they did the year before.

Because I just don't think it's within this squad.

So we knew it was going to be a lumpy kind of run of fixtures.

It was going to be an ups and downs.

Unfortunately, the down has been the defeat to Sunderland,

which has means more.

Whether you like it or not, it means more to supporters.

It means more to the club because it's a yardstick

that you're measured against.

Can you get up for the darbys?

Can you win the darbys?

They've lost that game.

They've had two weeks to reflect on it.

They should have backed him, I think,

a little bit more strongly.

But yeah, I still think he's safe.

I still think they want him to be the manager next year.

But I think the quotes reflect that little element of doubt

in what happens in the summer.

And it won't just be about Newcastle.

It will be about what Eddie had decided to do as well.

Close and come on to me.

I'm less forgiving of Hopkinson using the former words to be honest.

He's had plenty of time to think about what he was going to say

and then he's used.

And I'll be came to him a clumsy form of words.

And he's kind of status to us has been sold on the back of that.

He's been at Real Madrid.

Well, Elon Musk knows about media pressure and speculation

and every word that you say being pulled apart

in Real Madrid must have about 20 news papers a day

coming out dedicated to them.

So in terms of the media, he must know about how things can

kind of blow up very, very quickly.

So I think he really needs to wise up

if he has got confidence in how he does want them there

to be there next season.

You should say so.

You should be blunt.

I think it's okay for people to say we're under pressure

and that applies to Eddie Howe and it applies to me,

and it applies to the tail lady, and it applies to the coaches

and every single one of the players.

That's an okay thing to say.

And to say we want to end the season on a high

because we've been disappointed with, you know,

the failed every big test of hard this season in my opinion.

And particularly the derby matches have kind of severed the mood

around the club.

So the need to be explicit about what they want.

And I think my final comments would be to echo what Mark has said,

put some shovels in the ground, get that training ground started

and change the conversation because there's so much doubt about

what the Saudis are here for, and lots of conversations about

economics and war and famine in the Middle East,

and how it impacts on the laws in the United.

So then they need to come out and just do something,

get cracking on with it.

Otherwise, this is just going to rumble on.

And it would be a difficult summer.

I think we know that.

I'll finish off by saying whatever he says,

Hopkinson, it's almost...

It's less important than what happens in these next seven games

because what these set of accounts have taught us is the club

cannot afford to...

I'm just going to say Champions League.

I'm just going to say the club cannot currently afford

not to be in the Champions League.

And there are only so many things you can do

to try and offset this.

And whilst you, you know,

complying with the Premier League seems easy and moving forward,

you wafer, it will not be long before you start seeing clubs bar

from Europe.

So you could actually, the club can find itself in a position

where it doesn't have European football or great,

we can go and get European football the following season

because we're doing have two games a week.

Well, like you correctly said earlier Mark,

you can't have an 85% squat cost ratio one season

in a 69% annex.

It's literally impossible.

Yeah.

Financially reality, it is impossible.

And Hopkinson and those guys are dealing with reality.

And I think they...

And the problem they will look at is if...

Just say we win two or three of our last seven games

with a couple of what I'd say,

typical knee-castinated performances from this season,

they'll be then looking at the start of the next season,

thinking, fuck it out,

we've got to get this transfer window spot on,

which is very hard to do with this level.

I think, as one said,

if 30% of your transfers work out to be great signings,

he was happy with 30%.

If they have a, in different end of the season

and then get a nightmare start to the following season,

all of a sudden the decision that probably felt

that had to take this summer has been delayed

and you've lost a transfer window

and the consequences seem severe.

And I saw...

I can't, probably Simon Jordan actually asked,

I watched on YouTube basically saying,

Simon Jordan's view on all this,

not that planned, and on a Simon Jordan opinion,

was that Hopkinson probably would say 2030,

the way things are going,

and the way things have gone so far,

to be judged on a successive failure of that vision.

On that note, we'll leave it there.

Thanks for watching and listening.

We're on Patreon.

It's been three and eight pounds a month.

There's a link in the description

in this podcast.

We'll speak to Mark every month on there.

As if you've enjoyed what he's heard a day

would come and join us to hear it as more.

And Charlotte, say,

I and Audi will be back on Easter Monday

for more detailed discussion about Audi House,

future based on the comments and much more.

Speak to you all then.

Bye-bye.