Offensive flag left up after Stormont contractors refuse to remove it without “community reps” approval

0:00This BBC Podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Across Northern Ireland, on your radio and on BBC Sounds. This is... The Stephen Nolan Show! Flags next on the podcast from the Nolan Show today. Hope you enjoy it. The Stephen Nolan Show! Good morning, everyone. Thank you for joining me today. It's a common theme now for me on this programme to you and ask you to respond to it.

1:05It's sometimes in Northern Ireland we shrug our shoulders and we assume that there is a norm here. That it's all right that there's a norm here that is different from elsewhere in any other normal society. And we as a programme often question that. So last week on this programme we reported on how the PSNI, their official position is, they don't reckon a flag on a lamppost beside a park where both communities are going into. Saying Billy was right, that's the notorious loyalist paramilitary leader of the LVF, Billy right? Billy was right and the police don't reckon that's intimidation. Have you ever heard the like of it in your life? Is what some people in the community would argue? If you've got people from both communities walking into a park and not even both communities,

2:05law abiding people, looking at a poster, telling them that the loyalist leader of the LVF was right. And that's not intimidation then what is. And then we look at another story, brilliant journalism from our reporter Brendan Hughes bringing us this story this morning. Now a union flag and just a warning that we will be conveying to you the nature of this which will include us, conveying offensive language to you. A union flag displaying F your Irish language along with a Belfast council logo, Belfast City Council logo, was allowed to remain on a lamppost for several months because stormant contractors said support, wait for this, from community representatives with authority to order the removal was needed.

3:05Basically, let's just take all the noise out of this. Basically a contractor working for the Department of Infrastructure was essentially saying, does this need the support of what? Community leaders, community representatives or paramilitaries. Is that what they meant? Our political reporter Brendan Hughes, it's his story, he can set it out for us this morning. You got this 3FY Brendan, set it out please, morning. Morning Stephen, we'll just to explain to listeners where this flag was located. Now this was erected over the summer along the Lisbon Road towards the lower end of the Lisbon Road in South Belfast on a lamppost near its junction with the Sandy Road area. Now this was essentially as you say a union flag with Belfast City Council logo printed on top of it and it also had a message printed on it with a swear word as you say opposing the Irish language. Of course, look as we know there are many different lampposts across Northern Ireland that have different types of flags and different communities.

4:06But there had been concerns particularly raised about this one because this was really put up in the months and weeks running up to the fly being held last month in Belfast. Now in this correspondence that we've seen we see how the Irish Language Commissioner Paul Deeds intervened in relation to this, he wrote to the Department for Infrastructure calling for this flag to be removed. We also saw how some residents and some locally elected politicians were also raising with this with the Department for Infrastructure calling for this flag to be removed. Raising concerns about the impact that that was having in the run up to the fly people as opposed coming up to Belfast and seeing that sort of imagery whenever they were taking part in the festivities as part of that Irish cultural celebration that event that was happening over the summer. Now this as I said it had a city council logo on it we also saw how there was a public statement issued at the time from the Belfast City Council authorities saying they did not condone the use of their logo on this flag.

5:08Now whenever we were reporting them this a number of months ago the Department for Infrastructure said it was leasing with the PS and I about this issue. But now as you say through freedom of information requests we've obtained an internal correspondence which gives an insight into what was happening behind the scenes and what this shows is that whenever police were asked about this particular fly police advised stormant officials that removing the fly presented a low risk of public disorder and they also offered to assist and reassure they said any contractors who were tasked with taking it down. But what happened is that in response the department said an official from the department said in this correspondence that their private contractor would not be willing to assist unless there is clear community support and they added that the private contractor needed the operation to be carried out under the supervision of both the PS and I and what they described as local community representatives with the authority to order the removal of the flag.

6:09No, you have people be asking local representatives with the authority. What does that mean local community representatives with authority? Well, no, what that means. Well, absolutely as opposed people will draw their own conclusions from that language. I was speaking earlier this week to the Alliance Party MLA Paula Bradshaw she's currently bringing a private members bill through the assembly in relation to flag seeking to put in place some further regulation in relation to that issue that hotly contested issue we see every year in Northern Ireland and she says that this language used in these emails points to what she describes as the toxic impact of paramilitaries on decisions on flags. So people who hear this story may think to themselves will sure lots of people would already assume or perhaps feel that they know that that is the case. But others will look at this language and see that this is it being written in black and white for everyone to see in official documents within one of our stormant executive departments that really for some people they need the permission of what they describe as local community representatives with the authority to order the removal of flags.

7:20In order for those flags to be taken down from public property. This was during the the the flower event. So if you even think about this even the and it's why we were telling you what was actually said on it if your Irish language so kids were walking past that flag was left up for months. How can this be justifiable and people at the flower who were who were traveling from all around the world to the flower were saying this language this provocative language and it took months before it was taken down. Brendan you've been kind enough to let me see some of the some of your journalism and the FOI responses that you got. And my eyes drawn to and so within within the documents we can see of how the department for infrastructure was handling your press inquiry when you had contacted them. And if I just read this to our listeners draft response a DFI spokesperson said following reports of this flag the department saw the device regarding its removal from the PSNI.

8:31However, the department has a responsibility to ensure the safety of its staff and contractors and in the absence of any firm evidence of community support. The department has decided not to take any action at this time. Now that was a draft response. Did they change their their mind after that? I can't I can't recall the details of what they said in relation to their particular response when they sent it out but we know that this was the sort of language that the department was using not just in response to media queries around this particular issue but also in response to concerns and complaints that were being made by local residents and elected representatives at the time. We see in this correspondence how in some letters and responses that were sent to the likes of as I say locally elected representatives residents people who were raising concerns about this flag that similar sort of language was being used where the department was essentially saying that unless they had clear community support they weren't going to step in on the list of what it was.

9:36What in tractors saying it is the department for infrastructure a government department in black and white here in the absence of any firm evidence of community support the department has decided not to take any action. Why does why does a government department need community support to get involved with this this provocative sectarian language. I'm sure lots of people will be asking the question over over this and look we have seen over many years how decisions over what flags fly on public land posts what flags fly on public street furniture is an issue that our politicians continue to grapple with and the position has changed depending on what the flag is where the issue is and indeed what sort of public reaction there has been to those issues indeed you were speaking earlier this year Stephen. I'm going to send your police officer Bobby singleton who is laying out what appeared to be a different stance of more robust stance perhaps from police in relation to this issue but then whenever it comes to looking at it in practice we have seen how different approaches have been taken we see how in this occasion police are saying well in their responses and their correspondence with the department well look we're willing to facilitate any removal of this flag by contractors we believe that it's a low risk.

10:58But then whenever the department approaches those private contractors to try and get a taken down we see the concerns that they have about taken down this particular flag in this area so perhaps you know it shows it shows the difficulties that the public agencies that we have this in terms of dealing with these issues and indeed the concerns that different contractors have over what they should do whenever they're faced with these issues it shows the par the par military have it shows the par the man. So we know what the people who put on the masks have that and it's there we all know it we know the part they have but when we see this in black and white this is the importance of your story now important to also Brendan for you for you to remind this hard the department they did seek another contractor so they didn't just stop at one contractor they were trying to get this down but before that contractor took a down the second contractor and the flag came down by the department.

11:58So we know that by someone's hand and we don't know who right. Well yes so this flag had been up as I say throughout the summer it seems that there were complaints being made about this flag back in June and we reported on it in July shortly before the fly but there had been complaints being made about it back in June. The flag remained up until quite recently we understand that it was taken down only in recent days this week and in fact that we believe that this flag was taken down now whenever we asked the department about this and other public agencies well were you involved in taking down the flag the police said they weren't didn't take down the flag the Belfast City Council officials said they weren't involved in taking down the flag so that sort of left the department for infrastructure and what they essentially said is that well the minister lives chemons hard and structured. Officials to engage with other alternative contractors to secure the removal but they say that the flag was removed ahead of the agreed removal operation so it appears there were plans for a contractor to move in and actually take down this flag but someone and we don't know who decided to take it down in the intervene period.

13:08Maybe Brandon thank you very much morning to you maybe the local boys decided maybe the local men and masks the local thugs decided that they would take it down what was supposed to be grateful to them are we I don't know who took it down Jonathan Buckley from the D. P. is with us this morning morning to you Jonathan good morning and on your grugan from the green party grugan from the green party morning to you morning morning and so Jonathan here we have in black and white. We can we we've heard Brandon's reporting there the contractor wanted the the permission the consent of the local the local boys the local community reps whatever that means and the department for infrastructure weren't prepared to take any action without an a verticomers community support. You can't follow that. Well, firstly I say here because I've debated this issue on flags just this week in the assembly the D. P. has no trunk no support for or no wish to see any paramilitary in place in Northern Ireland exercising control over and a community so that's full stop and category decided from the outset in relation to the email that you've outlined and I just like to be specific could you please clarify exactly what the contractor said in relation to community representative.

14:31I certainly get the exact wording let me say I have it here in in front of me. Yeah, as per our phone email from the Department of Infrastructure to the police. As per our phone call earlier the straight lighting contractor would not be willing to assess unless there's clear community support for the removal of the flag and that the operation will be carried out under the supervision of both the PS and I and local community representatives with the authority to order the removal of the flags so it is local community representatives with the authority to order the removal of the flags. Okay, so I just want to be clear on that point so I think we need to be served both in this instance to the department and also to the contractor and no part of that email is just does it suggest that it's get the boys to take a dog community representative has the authority to order the removal of anything in our country.

15:35Well the word the word that should concern us is the word order but as for community representatives that are mentioned in the email I unless maybe Brandon can further clarify with the department what that meant I'm a community representative I engage with my community continually when it comes to flags and we've come into areas where the flag protocols detect on so just say just to be specific specific. I would have no let me finish this point I would highly doubt that any government department was suggesting that the PS and I alongside paramilitaries would stand at the roundabout and go up the poll detector on the flags are just let's be ready clear if we have clarity from from the department of the contractor so absolutely then we can go to time and up. You live in Northern Ireland you're you're a resident in Northern Ireland you're one of our community. I'm a community representative statement. Local community representatives with the authority to order the removal of the flags are you seriously suggesting to me that does not infer the paramilitaries and I want to live and breathe in this place like the rest of us have you the have you authority to order a removal of a fly and you're a politician.

16:52Yeah that's that's where I want to be specific I need I want to be third of the department it doesn't specify the word paramilitary and I'm not being I'm not being a piece of. Well I would want further clarity from the department on that point I didn't write the email statement but I was as an elected representative I don't have the power to order the removal of anything but what I can do is use my authority as an elected representative to bring the relative authorities together to ensure that an offensive flag. That is causing hurt and that sort of way can be removed and I think this is specific and this is where we'll go to in relation to this flag legislation that's being proposed by the Alliance party they're not available to come on this morning. So I want to be really specific I actually think the PS and I give the right response you know they give their assessment that there was no community risk to take in that particular flag down that should have been the incentive in which the department led on to ensure it's. Removal and so I think language is important growing this there should be no place for paramilitary influencing our dictating which flags fly in which flags do not I I support the legitimate and flying of the national flag in Northern Ireland cultural celebrations surrounding that there already are strong protocols in place across Northern all be it that is not across the board I accept there's inconsistency but Paula Bradshaw on the Alliance party bell I'm telling you know is there.

18:19I know is a recipe for disaster let me just comes to throwing DFI into the landscape of removing one flag when we have thousands of bottles across Northern Ireland that can't even be felt let me just be specific and then we'll turn to on you this morning Charleston and this union flag displayed the following words. Words F your Irish language what is your reaction to that I don't agree with it I don't agree with it at all the Irish language is legitimate expression from people in Northern Ireland and their entitled to that and I don't support the mockery of anyone's language or cultural tradition. But what I'm saying Stephen let's not forget this has been thrown into the political sphere and has become such a toxic issue because we have people like the Alliance party and others that have imposed a 15% threshold for the erection of our straight signage in communities across Northern Ireland that's not 50% plus that's 15% so it's a minority imposing the well on a majority on you stay there Johnson on you.

19:26Yeah look I think it's incredibly disappointing what we have seen over this whole saga I think what turned me most of the whole whole incident was when I first raised issues with this flag. Everyone that I spoke to agreed it was offensive agreed should not be playing on the land post but nobody was willing to step up and remove it and I know I was on a light straight lighting post so therefore the responsibility lies with the private infrastructure and I'm really concerned with the language. That they have used I have seen in writing to correspond to the conceptions is completely this idea that there was no evidence of community sports for removal and the line you use as well but local community reps with authority to order to remove all I'm elected to represent this area. I was quite explicitly telling the department the police on the kind so that this flag should not remain on the land post there was no community sport for that haven't heard anyone saying it should be fine. So why was nobody able to take it time because I think I think that I think that I think you're correct about and I think I would like the department to actually come over come on and stand over their action for this because what we have seen time and time again is actually a disease legitimizing the influence of parameters in our communities we are 20 25 years on from the good Friday agreement and yet these figures these all name shadow figures are always in the middle of the world.

20:53So I think the background per strings and nobody is able to step up and take action on them and we are not only are we not taking action to rid them from our society we're actually still in an influence on things like this there is absolutely no reason why it's actually you could not remove that flag the police said the risk was low. I thought myself that someone to get me a letter told off I would have taken a down myself I was so enraged with the audacity and of someone thinking that they could do that on our public list it's absolutely shocking that we still have to deal with this and I command john of the mayor for saying you know the slide was wrong and should have came down but unfortunately that was not the message of a conveyed to the department from his local the elected representative and I think that's quite frustrating. And I really think we need to do that. What you're referring to what you're referring to hold on a moment the police said a staff member of the community organization on sandy row had raised the flag issue with the dvp counsellor and the counsellor said they do not know who's put the flag up and believe that raising the issue with the community will only bring it to their attention on Julie the email said that's what can you be quite.

22:11Yes, and that should have been the message from everyone that being said I still think when the serious questions to be asked in terms of this to look at the direct authority. Who can't sit back and who decides that because I'm not seeing any answers to that and I appreciate. I can't constitute the look you know it's the nolan show so let's just say it out loud and cut the key car on this and I'm not suggesting that you are I'm talking about just wider here right they create the authority by burning us out by breaking houses by driving people out of communities by putting posters up saying Billy was right and the very police service of this country say it's not intimidating so they get away with it by putting signs on lamppost by putting graffiti on shopfronts saying it's locals only in all of this they create their own authority because they get away with it on you and we all know it. And it's perverse it's absolutely perverse and an uniligently civilized society that we like this happen.

23:15Didn't can I say that there was a slight there on some of the local DEP representatives which I think I need to challenge firmly you know the DEP local representative suggested that they did have no idea who put the flag up that was correct. That's correct and they did not have to donate any of the language they did know correct on the other point I will say is this is that those commit those DEP representatives in South Belfast worked out. Worked tirelessly to ensure that the flower which was a success in Belfast had inclusive inclusivity around it in relation to British Ulster tradition and that was hugely successful and what they wanted to ensure was that by the removal of a flag that you didn't actually see a proliferation of flags which would have caused a bigger issue created community tensions. I actually think that the DEP councillors actions in this regard were responsible. Why didn't they what why did the DEP concierge not want to raise it with the local community they say raising the issue with community will only bring it to their attention on Julie.

24:17What does that mean? What's the DEP I think that's fair assessment to suggest that if you if you want to create tension around one flag especially in the EVE of major festival in Belfast which has the potential and did ultimately bring in millions of pounds of money to your terrorism sector to your wider arts sector it was absolutely fantastic but the point would be that DEP councillor was making an individual assessment to suggest I don't want to run the risk of the risk of a proliferation of flags which has the potential to cause more on these on around a community festival. Where's the one an element of well unionism indeed or well it not and it did and it did so successfully. Look I absolutely commend and you're stepping up to the plate with the fly get them all get engaged and I think it was incredible and that's exactly the face of Belfast we should be putting forward. I think johnson is getting more there than he realizes. We're being held to ramps and by people we do not know who are not named who not really to come forward and say yep I put that flag up and we are held to ramps and in case they here they are get annoyed and put up more flags.

25:28No I know I think that's the way to conduct ourselves that we are too afraid to tackle these issues because of all known figures in the background that might make the situation worse. Might be with quite clear that flag being up raised community tensions. How is the inverse of that tree we're taking a dot dot flag was incredibly offensive on this situation that we couldn't possibly take it down because we risk asking it and making it worse. Hey, well let's let's not put words in their mouth. I have seen the email correspondence what they're suggesting in their opinion was that they didn't want to raise it as an issue in case there was a preparation. What the fuck hold on sorry you've made you've made a slight on the comments that I made the point is this nobody is in the DUP new who put up the flag so it's on further suggests that they were in the same way. I talked to some sort of paramilitary which they don't know exist in relation to this flag.

26:30The placement should have been the primary point of focus for the department for the contractor not any elected representative. Whether or not the police felt that it was appropriate to take the flag down and they indicated directly to the department that opposed to no risk and taking it down. Thank you, Jonathan. UVF flags equip the market part of the storm. This is Paula Bradshaw's display flags and emblems that you responded to around that she said the 1912 date on those flags and the history behind it made no difference to her once the flag carried the lettering of a prescribed organization and you said that there should be a distinction. Let's hear what you said. I think I took a world for me to explain to someone that has had a direct association and hurt from the modern UVF and their despicable display of hatred and murder and mayhem in the streets of Northern Ireland. I can say that without fear of recognition but it would take me a long time to explain that the historic 1912 UVF in which my great great grandfather served.

27:39I thought for values a thought for the ability for me to stand in this chamber someday in the future to debate with passion the interests that affect this country. That's very, very different. Jonathan, is it not about the context of what the UVF does now? Without direct contribution was in relation to an intervention from the Alliance parties, Keith Neckl which was surrounding the historic nature compared to the modern day. The UVF flag was up now whether it says 1912 or not. Do you not think UVF these days on any flag is acceptable? What do you think? The legislation was so unclear. This is why this legislation has the ability to absolutely wreak havoc within the department for infrastructure whose priority should be pot holes, roads, gullies, straight lighting, the basic infrastructure that are set us in use every day.

28:40I support and I said you've heard it there clearly. My family member, my great great grandfather died at the Battle of the Somme. He's one of many across Northern Ireland. He was part of the 36th Ulster Division UVF in 1912. He fought alongside those of an Irish tradition in the 16th Irish. That's a cultural tradition in which I am proudly associated with and I make new apology for it. I make no trunk for any modern day prescribed paramedic reorganization that killed innocent civilians on the street in Northern Ireland. I'm not completely clear of that. That was across. I'm finally because I know you need to go. The flags are still some of them up there done gammon part and those flags, Billy was right. The police are saying are not legal. Are you concerned with that or are you content? No, I never asked me about this originally on your show. I said that I didn't say support for it. What I will say clearly is that the bill of Paula Bradshaw and the Alliance Party are intent and bringing forward would impose DFI to become the flag police.

29:44In the opinion of the department, it's subjective terms, which are going to place this DFI at the heart of this battle on flags whenever their priorities should be. Get more with BBC podcasts wherever you listen. Be the first to listen to your favourite shows like Evil Genius, Good Bad Billionaire and Your Dead To Me with a subscription to BBC Podcasts Premium on Apple Podcasts. You can also enjoy a range of our podcasts, add free with an Amazon Music subscription. Be Elsewhere. Thomas is about fast morning. Thomas. Hello, Stephen. Good morning. Morning. It's a thousand kilometers. Yes, he is. He's just away. Well, the mountains find that sort of. Make this to be like a small mother, but the number flags when there's more important things. But I would like to hear Jonathan's response if there was flags in our drawings and Sean Kelly was great. It'd be the first to see what you're my last. I'm on the show. He condemned the language on the line. He didn't make trivial. He said it wasn't right. He's been on for half an hour talking about it.

30:53We're working to change our top on our track. It'd be the same boy on top of our other way around. They want to be optimal. Don't you believe as a elected representative that the people of each areas want these flags put up? Can I ask you this? Because the story and you can make the story, but John Buckley of Cushie Cam, if you want to, right? That's up to you, right? But what do you have here? Is a government department, the department of infrastructure saying that the department has responsibility to ensure safety of staff and contractors in the absence of any firm evidence of community support. The department has decided not to take any action at this time. That's not a draft response to a press question. So the department think that they need community support. The contractor wouldn't do it without the authority and support of the community representatives. Now, who do you think the community reps are?

31:55Downless and wooden and the end of it waste that but me and you know, it's the UVA of the UVF are both. No need flags go up without their OK and not on come down without it. And I don't really under contract there for not doing it because if he goes to take them down, he could be in trouble. But if that contractor is contracting with the department for infrastructure and it's a business and taking a profit as a result, should know the Ireland and this is an open question because I get it the dangers that there are. But in order to get any business from a government department, should you as a business be prepared to take on the unsafe work as well as getting the safe work. In other words, is that contractor still employed by the department for infrastructure, the contractor that wouldn't go in without the support and authority of the local community reps? Are they still getting public money? Well listen, even the honestly don't think you can play on the couch. I mean, who would hire what is insurance cover that?

32:58Because if you get up a ladder to pull that down and the UVA and UVF get wind of it, there are before five bullets, run, with base ball box, you'll be pulled a ladder and that would be in that. But if they give the go ahead, you'll take a turn and there'll be no comeback. And then because we do a story one week, doesn't help me, we don't come back to the next. You're a nationalist, is that fair or what are you? You're correct 100% right. So Billy was right, the notorious leader of the LVF and we know how many people the LVF intimidated and murdered in Northern Ireland. Billy was right at a park, a public park in Dungan and the police are saying that is not illegal. I don't understand how it came about for Christmas, Steven. I mean, you have a man who was at the head of the LVF, who was linked to I don't know God knows how many murders. He's linked by the government through a court process, right? Well, we don't need to do with fair court process. I think Michael McGorrig was shot as a birthday present to him.

34:02The drum creed, the barbell, all. He was at the head of a kick and it's stoken up the fire. It's keeping it going. We're not stupid in this country, Steven. How is the police can turn around and say that that is not offensive and it's not political. They said it was offensive. They said it was not illegal. And when we went back to the person I could you help us understand how it's not illegal. They said there's nothing further to add. Now, how is that engaging with the local community? Well, they're washing their hundreds, Steven. It's a pure example of that. They're washing their hundreds because you are a Protestant. You know that that flag is offensive and it's a legal 100%. And I know. And the police are going to stand over a street case and tell me it's not. So what is illegal? What would constitute an illegal flag? Tell me. Well, if you had a flag up in this country saying some have been labelled and was right. Is that not in television? A hundred percent. But I also wanted to ask Jonathan, but we've given him. Get this in before he has found me off.

35:03I was also a victim. It does a community support this. I wanted to ask Jonathan, but anybody who is a representative on the shanker, there was a period on Saturday for Brian Ramson, who was a UVF terrorist. He shot dead. A guy shot him alive in tains on himself. He shot dead men and three other. And the shanker was bombed. Screech were bombed with people celebrating this guy. So my main set is do these people want these. It doesn't seem to offend them. So your fate in the losing bottle if the community will celebrate a guy and shot him innocent. I don't think there's a bond. I've been changed. They're not going to be worried a bit for him. It was a bond parade wasn't annoying. It was a bond. It was about 40 bars. They've been under most of them at least a thousand people shoot up. We were there. I think I've been a lot certainly wasn't there. I've seen the news. I've seen the videos and I've seen it on. Okay. Thomas, thank you for your call. Jo and Warren point. Morning, Jo. Morning, Stephen. How are you? Go ahead. I see. I was just driving at a log in yesterday and just the lights just opposite Charlotte lockers office was like a post like election banner.

36:13You know, put up an election champion post. And it was a knowledge man and a drum. And below the head of that there. It said we will beat them. Now what does that mean? It's not the moment is it? Yes, yes, yes. I seen it just and now funny. I wasn't stopped. The damn light. They're got straight through and I wasn't locking but just that I pulled up those lights and sitting on the right. And clearly some people might interpret that as a play on words beat the drums and that might be absolutely. It's good. It's good. It's good. And like if anybody was to take a mean we all. It's also to be clear nothing to do with Carl Lockhart. You're just saying it's where it is. No, no, no. I'm just describing. I don't know. I don't know. The industry is directly. It's all the business of our office on the right hand side. I'm on the left lane and it's just a delight. You know that at the junction, you know, but I see the gesture and I'm not an hour by the past. You know what I'm saying? I would look for slogans myself to represent my business. But the fact that I see to myself my god. That's and what's ongoing. I mean, that's true. That to my attention. That's why I said.

37:18Well, you've got the orange order, of course, saying that they're not trying to trump anybody. They're not trying to overwhelm anybody. Absolutely. And you sure it says we will beat them because we have seen one that says we won't be beat. No, we will beat them. I'm going. I'm nearly a hundred. Yes, I'm sure it was we will beat them. And then I see obviously the drum. So it's good. That's a good, you know, you know, it was a business. That's a good business. You know, but it's true to my attention. I said Jesus. How much can I tell you what I would like to do because obviously I haven't seen it. Right. So what I would like to do is I'm sure some some of our local listeners might send into me no little BBC.co.uk or we will suss it out ourselves. I just want to see it with me. I'm sure you will. I'm back there. I'm back there and there. I'll be back. I'm just a new rhythm. I'll be back there and I'll be come on home with one quarter to I was going to take a photograph yesterday, but the late when green. So I didn't get the opportunity to take a photograph from your car. You get done by the cops.

38:20Poole. I said the travel legs. You know, I'll keep it secret like you know, do we have you're not keeping the secret talking on the radio. You cannot be using your phone in the car. So thank you. Morning to you. Fred morning. Fred. Hello. How are you? Go ahead. Well, I was just thinking about that. That side of that. He was right. And this was the assured feature on that. Everything mean that nature. But at the same time, it's quite. She's the most vital right. For the first minister. Say that there's no alternative for the 30 years of return and. I'm a turtle. I'm a figure checking flag. I think part of the story is that, you know, again, ultimately the police work for us. We don't work for them. They work for us. So when there are so many of you asking the place and you're doing so respectfully, you're asking the police to explain to you.

39:22Sorry. How is your public position about Billy Wright and that flag? How is it your public position? It's not illegal. And the police's response to all of you is we're not telling you. You know, can we remind the person I who they work for? They work for people like you. But the work for every bit of supposed work for every and the goddess taking the flags down earlier in the year. Said that the police would be responsible taking flags down. But if you help them in Logan, and for this last number of a lot of months, it's been at the very peace case in door. There's a flagpole and is a flag of a foreign country and the nationalist bumping from up to the next pool at the place. Well, that's not important. What's the legal about that? What's the legal about that? What's the legal about that flag? I don't know. Nobody does bother. I've been passing it many times with people that said, please have a set away.

40:27The police aren't a flag police. They're not running around. It was Bobby Sengland said they don't run around with ladders. They're not going to run around and take every emblem down from our lab. I've got a lot of information earlier in there. The police were responsible for taking the flag. It might be the police. The police were able to do so. They're not going to climb up lamppost. I think what they were saying was if it was at head height and without public disorder, they could easily go in and remove what was clearly a sectarian or offensive flag. They would do so. They would say that. But the Billy Wright, the Billy Wright flag is the community himself. The Billy Wright flag. Can I speak this morning? The Billy Wright flag is a different scenario. They are publicly saying it is not illegal. It is not intimidation. They won't explain how to reach that decision. I think it's in the public interest for us to press them again and for them to tell us. Maliki, morning Maliki.

41:35I think it's very rare. I would agree with Jonathan Popley. But it's unfulfilled today on your show that he has actually worked out on what night got an answer to the drunk re situation. He said on your radio show about the illegal well, the police of Seattle is not illegal. The Billy Wright flag was of course illegal and you quite ready pointed out it is. He said that flag can't be taken turn on this community support is there with the place to remove it. Is that right? No, he hasn't. No, he did not say that. What did he say? The story we're doing this morning is about a flag in a different location. It's Brendan Hughes journalism. And it is about the department for infrastructure and and indeed the contractor, both citing the need for the police. He was saying the need for community support for a flag when it was very big on community support. So I can only take from that.

42:40If the community support and the guy back here don't want the orange predicate to return it. Then we can assume from that statement that it's not going to end the story. Job should be done. And you can put more than this. You put more than money. Right. You can share the boat money. When you show yesterday. You had lands on talking about pulling the plug from filler on the floor. Right. Because of the thin introduce certain things to the filler and here we'll have today. You know, mean, talk. The money is going to cause the money. Thank you. I've got to move on. Thank you. Morning to you. Thank you. One of our colors reference day. A sign that was up that was saying we won't we will beat them. We're having our listeners telling us that the poster doesn't sign that. That say that as a TV poster that saying we won't be beat. I haven't seen a light of no, but that's what we're getting into the program. Mark final call about flags morning. Mark.

43:42I've heard you say about the Billy right flag and it being illegal. I'm asking the police to explain how it is not intimidation. Well, I would like to first of all, what is actually bad? What is the bad message enough like are you saying it's morally wrong because it's Billy right. Yes, or what? What is your problem? But I'm sorry. More morality doesn't come into it. What is it? What is the problem? So a man who led the LVF, an organization responsible for murder in this country, a slogan at a public park used by men, women, children from all different communities saying Billy was right. And the PSNI don't think that they have a duty to explain to the taxpayers of this country. How that is not intimidation. So we're just not allowed to know what that is intimidate. And he could have been talking about anything. Billy right had a lot of using a lot of things, but he could have been. But what do you think people draw?

44:48Well, I'm getting your point. So so Martin Mechanist was in government as first minister. Okay. People who took me. Well, Jerry. You have a man did who voted for Billy right? Tarris is on the police board. Everything that they don't and then being an embassy. Mr. Kelly was convicted of a terrorist offense in the past and has a mandate, a mandate, a democratic mandate. It is about the me as them flags are. Who can be in an embassy. Mark, thank you very much indeed. All I'm asking the police today is to be part of our community and explain the reasoning. Have a great unwashed no government, title them and the new. We'll see you in the morning. The best show in the country. Listen again on BBC sounds. Tweet, add Stephen Nolan. Stephen Nolan show.

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