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Hello, this is Elizabeth Day from The How To Fail Podcast.
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I wanted to share something I'm genuinely excited about.
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Welcome back to how to fail.
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This week we're talking about ambition,
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the engine that drives us forward,
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the inner voice that tells us to keep going,
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and the shadow side that asks whether we've ever done enough.
2:35
First actor and Emmy winner Jillian Anderson
2:38
reflects on being a self-confessed work colleague
2:41
and the belief that she has to earn her place
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through constant effort, highly relatable.
2:47
We discuss pleasure as power,
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the guilt of not working,
2:51
and how she balances fierce professional drive
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with parenthood and presence.
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Then model and fashion icon Munro Bergdorf shares
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how her ambition was forged through rejection
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and gatekeeping in the fashion industry.
3:05
From being treated as a gimmick
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to witnessing real change on the runway,
3:09
she speaks about perseverance, representation,
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and widening the path for others.
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This is an episode about striving, self-worth,
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and it asks whether ambition liberates us
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or quietly runs the show.
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First up, let's hear from Jillian Anderson.
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Your final failure is failure to not work.
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Are you a work-olic?
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And where do you think that comes from?
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Why do you feel that you need to work
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in order to earn your place on this planet?
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but I do have, I mean, it's like a Protestant work
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I'm not quite sure where it's come from,
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but what I do know is I feel incredibly lucky
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I mean, on all hands.
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I don't mean nothing.
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Yeah, I'm incredibly lucky, incredibly fortunate,
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privileged, all of that to have the choices
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that I have had both in my life and my career.
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And part of it, I think, is showing myself
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that I deserve it because I'm doing all these things.
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All these good things are happening
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than I'd better be working for them.
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You know, it's not coming lightly or it's not frivolous.
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That's another thing, actually, that I wanted to talk about
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in terms of pleasure that I'm starting to realize too,
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is that so much of pleasure is perceived as being frivolous.
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Why isn't it as much of a sense of power,
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you know, to lean into that, to properly embrace pleasure
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and make space for it and make time for it
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and give it to oneself as it is the other things that we,
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and so I'm trying to have more of that in my life,
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but also realizing the degree to which so much of what I'm involved in,
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whether it's this drink or one of the shows that I work on
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or et cetera, is about pleasure and the joy and pleasure.
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I think you're so right about pleasure,
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because why can't it be as inoblune,
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as transformative, as suffering, or sadness, or pain?
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Because it's the same thing, but the different end of the spectrum.
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I mean, actually, I do feel like, even though I am a self-described
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workaholic, I do get pleasure from it.
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I do, I do get pleasure from that.
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When I'm clear, actually, it turns out,
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when I'm not eating brawn crackers and drinking Coca-Cola,
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I think quite clearly, and things come to me.
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I'm in a moment right now where, and I'm sure that a lot of it has to do
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with my age, and it's none of wanting to leave a mark.
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It is feeling like, hang on, I've still got some things to do.
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I've still got things to do that I didn't even know I wanted to do.
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And that is, of course, in roles and building a company that I'm building.
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But it's also just in terms of realising that
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I do have a few things that I want to share with people.
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And have you ever regretted working too hard or
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taking on a project?
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There have been a couple of moments when I haven't been able to
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stop around my kids that had more to do with not
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in terms of my work as an actor.
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But stuff on the side or with other projects and stuff where I
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have felt the guilt of choosing to focus on those things instead of
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having time with kids.
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And I feel like there's a good balance right now.
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I feel like when I'm with them, I'm with them.
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And that has become more and more meaningful to me.
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It's been really important to me in terms of by acting work to always
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have them as part of the priority in terms of this is when I'm available,
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this is when I'm not, et cetera.
7:20
But this is different.
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This is in terms of what happens with meetings and with zooms and all those
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other things that end up in our days today taking, sucking that time.
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And I've got some pretty strict rules around around all of that.
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So that my work of holism is something that my boys can look at as being
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beneficial to them because they can see, you know,
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not just in terms of what I bring home at the end of the day,
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but in terms of seeing me effectively building things.
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And they both have an interest in that.
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And I think it's been really great that they get to see.
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And I think they would say that too, that to see a mum who is entrepreneurial.
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And our teenagers aren't.
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And imagine two of them are.
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And then I have one who's, yeah, 28.
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You know those times late at night when you're scrolling.
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10:00
I think I'm an extremely ambitious person.
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I have a drive that I think is my biggest attribute.
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I've really had to live a life of discipline and life of tenacity
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and constant setbacks, constant people that are a gatekeeping,
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people that are withholding and coming into the fashion industry.
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Nobody wanted to hire me.
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And it took some of the biggest photographers just taking a chance
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and me like Nick Knight, like Rankin,
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who wanted to work with me when I was constantly
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having doors slammed in my face because they were like,
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why would we work with a trans person?
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And this, you know, I know that a lot of black models
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from the 90s felt the same way as like we're,
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you know, I watched documentaries the other day
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where they're like we're just not hiring black models this season.
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That's exactly the same.
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So why would we work with a trans person?
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There's not that kind of campaign.
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It's not an LGBT campaign.
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And like now we're seeing that change.
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We're seeing trans people be in shows and it's not a thing
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that their trans is just, you know,
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when it is a thing because the visibility is incredible.
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And you know, when I see a trans model in a runway,
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if it's like Alex or if it's Max M or if it's God,
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India or if it's all of these incredible people
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within the industry, that means so much to me
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but it is not exploited that they're trans anymore.
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And for so long it was.
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I have done shoots where my transness has been, you know,
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almost like a gimmick.
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And I'm really glad that I've opened doors for so many people.
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I've been in this industry for almost a decade now.
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But if it wasn't for, you know,
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hearing the stories of, you know, women like Naomi Campbell
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and Joan Smalls and Jordan Dahn
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and Naomi Anderson talking about, you know,
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being exploited from like the ages of 14
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and being told that there's no black models this season
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or being on set and not knowing how to do black hair.
12:06
If it wasn't for those stories and seeing their tenacity
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and that they could get through it,
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then I could apply the same kind of work ethic
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and be like, okay, well, one day
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there's going to be more than one trans person in the runway.
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There's going to be a trans person on the runway.
12:20
And, you know, I have faith that there's going to be multiple trans people
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in wrong ways one day.
12:25
And then that's going to filter out as well.
12:27
And then we're going to see more trans people
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in all sorts of campaigns.
12:31
And then the beauty standard is going to change.
12:33
And then trans beauty is not going to be seen
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as any different from any other beauty.
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Just like black beauty is now getting the respect
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that it didn't once upon a time.
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And that's really, you know,
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what the book is about as well.
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It's everything does change.
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And I've really got faith that one day
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trans people are going to be able to navigate society
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in the same kind of freedom
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that other people that I experience
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in the same kind of oppression in yesterday did.
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And we'll just be able to be ourselves
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without having to constantly be so aware
13:06
of the fact that we're different.
13:09
You gave me four words.
13:10
I'm going to let you off the final one.
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I forgot that I was, um, maybe the last one's long-winded.
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It was such a beautiful place to end.
13:19
And if I can, I would like to give a final word.
13:22
You're like, this is quick fire.
13:24
I never wanted to be quick fire with you.
13:26
Honestly, I could do this for hours.
13:28
But I know you've got a fabulous launch to go to.
13:30
The final word for me will be powerful.
13:31
You're so powerful.
13:34
You're powerful in your truth.
13:35
You're powerful in your words on the page.
13:37
You're powerful in person.
13:39
I am so grateful to you
13:42
for finding times to do how to fail.
13:43
Honestly, it's meant the world to me.
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