ON AMBITION… With Gillian Anderson and Munroe Bergdorf

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Welcome back to how to fail.

This week we're talking about ambition,

the engine that drives us forward,

the inner voice that tells us to keep going,

and the shadow side that asks whether we've ever done enough.

First actor and Emmy winner Jillian Anderson

reflects on being a self-confessed work colleague

and the belief that she has to earn her place

through constant effort, highly relatable.

We discuss pleasure as power,

the guilt of not working,

and how she balances fierce professional drive

with parenthood and presence.

Then model and fashion icon Munro Bergdorf shares

how her ambition was forged through rejection

and gatekeeping in the fashion industry.

From being treated as a gimmick

to witnessing real change on the runway,

she speaks about perseverance, representation,

and widening the path for others.

This is an episode about striving, self-worth,

and it asks whether ambition liberates us

or quietly runs the show.

First up, let's hear from Jillian Anderson.

Your final failure is failure to not work.

Are you a work-olic?

Yeah.

And where do you think that comes from?

Why do you feel that you need to work

in order to earn your place on this planet?

I don't quite know,

but I do have, I mean, it's like a Protestant work

ethic.

I'm not quite sure where it's come from,

but what I do know is I feel incredibly lucky

on the one hand.

I mean, on all hands.

I don't mean nothing.

Yeah, I'm incredibly lucky, incredibly fortunate,

privileged, all of that to have the choices

that I have had both in my life and my career.

And part of it, I think, is showing myself

that I deserve it because I'm doing all these things.

All these good things are happening

than I'd better be working for them.

You know, it's not coming lightly or it's not frivolous.

That's another thing, actually, that I wanted to talk about

in terms of pleasure that I'm starting to realize too,

is that so much of pleasure is perceived as being frivolous.

Mm-hmm.

Yes, trivial.

Yeah.

And why?

Why isn't it as much of a sense of power,

you know, to lean into that, to properly embrace pleasure

and make space for it and make time for it

and give it to oneself as it is the other things that we,

and so I'm trying to have more of that in my life,

but also realizing the degree to which so much of what I'm involved in,

whether it's this drink or one of the shows that I work on

or et cetera, is about pleasure and the joy and pleasure.

Anyway, I digress.

I think you're so right about pleasure,

because why can't it be as inoblune,

as transformative, as suffering, or sadness, or pain?

Yeah.

Because it's the same thing, but the different end of the spectrum.

Yeah, exactly.

I mean, actually, I do feel like, even though I am a self-described

workaholic, I do get pleasure from it.

I do, I do get pleasure from that.

When I'm clear, actually, it turns out,

when I'm not eating brawn crackers and drinking Coca-Cola,

I think quite clearly, and things come to me.

I'm in a moment right now where, and I'm sure that a lot of it has to do

with my age, and it's none of wanting to leave a mark.

It's none of that.

It is feeling like, hang on, I've still got some things to do.

I've still got things to do that I didn't even know I wanted to do.

And that is, of course, in roles and building a company that I'm building.

But it's also just in terms of realising that

I do have a few things that I want to share with people.

And have you ever regretted working too hard or

taking on a project?

There have been a couple of moments when I haven't been able to

stop around my kids that had more to do with not

in terms of my work as an actor.

But stuff on the side or with other projects and stuff where I

have felt the guilt of choosing to focus on those things instead of

having time with kids.

And I feel like there's a good balance right now.

I feel like when I'm with them, I'm with them.

And that has become more and more meaningful to me.

It's been really important to me in terms of by acting work to always

have them as part of the priority in terms of this is when I'm available,

this is when I'm not, et cetera.

But this is different.

This is in terms of what happens with meetings and with zooms and all those

other things that end up in our days today taking, sucking that time.

And I've got some pretty strict rules around around all of that.

So that my work of holism is something that my boys can look at as being

beneficial to them because they can see, you know,

not just in terms of what I bring home at the end of the day,

but in terms of seeing me effectively building things.

And they both have an interest in that.

And I think it's been really great that they get to see.

And I think they would say that too, that to see a mum who is entrepreneurial.

And making things.

And our teenagers aren't.

Yeah.

And imagine two of them are.

And then I have one who's, yeah, 28.

OK.

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But normal gossip is back for its ninth season.

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I think I'm an extremely ambitious person.

I have a drive that I think is my biggest attribute.

I've really had to live a life of discipline and life of tenacity

and constant setbacks, constant people that are a gatekeeping,

people that are withholding and coming into the fashion industry.

Nobody wanted to hire me.

And it took some of the biggest photographers just taking a chance

and me like Nick Knight, like Rankin,

who wanted to work with me when I was constantly

having doors slammed in my face because they were like,

why would we work with a trans person?

Almost.

And this, you know, I know that a lot of black models

from the 90s felt the same way as like we're,

you know, I watched documentaries the other day

where they're like we're just not hiring black models this season.

That's exactly the same.

So why would we work with a trans person?

There's not that kind of campaign.

It's not an LGBT campaign.

And like now we're seeing that change.

We're seeing trans people be in shows and it's not a thing

that their trans is just, you know,

when it is a thing because the visibility is incredible.

And you know, when I see a trans model in a runway,

if it's like Alex or if it's Max M or if it's God,

India or if it's all of these incredible people

within the industry, that means so much to me

but it is not exploited that they're trans anymore.

And for so long it was.

I have done shoots where my transness has been, you know,

almost like a gimmick.

And I'm really glad that I've opened doors for so many people.

I've been in this industry for almost a decade now.

But if it wasn't for, you know,

hearing the stories of, you know, women like Naomi Campbell

and Joan Smalls and Jordan Dahn

and Naomi Anderson talking about, you know,

being exploited from like the ages of 14

and being told that there's no black models this season

or being on set and not knowing how to do black hair.

If it wasn't for those stories and seeing their tenacity

and that they could get through it,

then I could apply the same kind of work ethic

and be like, okay, well, one day

there's going to be more than one trans person in the runway.

There's going to be a trans person on the runway.

And, you know, I have faith that there's going to be multiple trans people

in wrong ways one day.

And then that's going to filter out as well.

And then we're going to see more trans people

in all sorts of campaigns.

And then the beauty standard is going to change.

And then trans beauty is not going to be seen

as any different from any other beauty.

Just like black beauty is now getting the respect

that it didn't once upon a time.

And that's really, you know,

what the book is about as well.

It's everything does change.

And I've really got faith that one day

trans people are going to be able to navigate society

in the same kind of freedom

that other people that I experience

in the same kind of oppression in yesterday did.

And we'll just be able to be ourselves

without having to constantly be so aware

of the fact that we're different.

You gave me four words.

I'm going to let you off the final one.

Oh, I'm sorry.

I forgot that I was, um, maybe the last one's long-winded.

It was such a beautiful place to end.

And if I can, I would like to give a final word.

You're like, this is quick fire.

I think no.

I never wanted to be quick fire with you.

Honestly, I could do this for hours.

But I know you've got a fabulous launch to go to.

The final word for me will be powerful.

You're so powerful.

You're powerful in your truth.

You're powerful in your words on the page.

You're powerful in person.

I am so grateful to you

for finding times to do how to fail.

Honestly, it's meant the world to me.

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