ONE MORE THING: Dwyane Wade vs James Harden (Again)

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It's one more thing here on Lockdown Heat.

Are we really doing this Dwayne Wade?

James Harden thing again?

You are Lockdown Heat.

You're daily Miami Heat Podcast, part of the Lockdown Podcast Network, your team every

day.

All right, welcome back to Lockdown Heat.

I'm Wes Goldberg here with David and Mill.

We've got one more thing to talk about today.

It's the old Dwayne Wade versus James Harden argument, which seems to pop up at least once

a quarter.

It feels like, David, somebody says something and then we've got to talk about this on the

internet again.

So we're going to react to the latest bout of Wade versus Harden here on one more thing

here on Lockdown Heat.

And Patrick Beverly is the latest one to bring this up on his podcast.

I think I don't really know where it came from, but I did see the framing of it.

And I actually will give Patrick Beverly credit for this.

I think the framing of this argument now is interesting.

Basically doing the what if what if James Harden does win a ring and does that materially

change the Wade versus Harden debate because I do think for people who are on the right

side of history and defend Dwayne Wade in the Dwayne Wade versus James Harden thing, you

go back to the fact that he's got three rings and James Harden has zero.

But if Harden wins one, it's obviously not three, but is that one ring plus some of

the statistical evidence and certainly the longevity part of it, which James Harden

obviously has the longevity part of the argument over Dwayne Wade.

Because all of this combined actually give Harden the edge in the Dwayne versus Harden

debate.

I'm going to give you my answer right now.

I don't think it does, but we can get into that if we want, but where are you on this?

No, I don't think it makes any difference.

And I mean, I think the more as you watch basketball, the more, especially a player at Harden's

stage in his career right now, winning a title, had he won one, maybe with the Houston

Rockets when they were at their peak, maybe when he was the sixth man of the year for the

Oklahoma City Thunder, they had one in 2012.

Nope.

I wouldn't have counted.

That would have been similar to this.

I think either in Houston or in Philly or in Brooklyn, those were the last days.

No, I think yeah, I clearly would have had to have been when he was putting up the monster

numbers that he did offensively.

Like, look, James is a, a hell of a player, a historically great player who did a lot

to bend and change the way offense was played and the NBA.

And that, you can't be taken away from him.

But ultimately, I just come down to seeing Dwayne be the complete player that he was and

so versatile and everything they did, being able to impact games both offensively and defensively,

and be able to carry teams as he did in the NBA finals with the highest stakes on the line.

That doesn't come close to any of the gaudy offensive production that we saw from Harden

as he was grifting the officiating in a way that we hadn't seen before.

Like, he's a hell of a passer, a great shooter, far superior shooter to Dwayne to wait.

And yet, for him to grift the way he did so egregiously, I think Tarnishes his overall

impact.

And I think also just separates him in a way that he's like a great offensive player.

And there's nothing wrong with it.

We don't have to have self-imposed binders to review what it is that he is.

He's a heck of an offensive player, and that's it.

And that's where all his impact is.

He's not a defensive player.

He never was.

He's never come through in big moments during the playoffs.

And I think that's another thing that has to be held against him.

And as such, you can respect him, admire him, appreciate him, whatever it is.

I will not take anything away from Rocket's fans that want to hold up him as a great

score, a great offensive player, et cetera.

But to compare him, it's ridiculous.

I think, again, you look at the player that Dwayne Wade was, and you've gone record

saying this, he's more along the lines of a Michael Jordan and a Kobe Bryant in terms

of the top shooting guards of all time than a guy like Harden who is so far beneath him

because of his one-way nature and his impact being as limited as he was to just what he

was able to do on the offensive end.

And somewhat, I won't use the word unethically, but let's say it was a really ugly style

of basketball for a very long time that I really did not like watching as he kind of

flopped his way to an extra 10 to 11 points per night.

I hear everything you're saying.

I would disagree with one piece of this.

I'll tell you what it is after this.

Oh.

That's a tease.

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So you made the point about the grifting and I hear you on that.

That to me has almost nothing to do with why Harden falls short of Dwayne Wade, although

I hear you on the unethical part of it and why aesthetically it's not very fun.

But you also, we've been doing the show for a long time, David.

You know, I'm almost, like, I kind of like James Harden, I'm, like, I'm a kind of

Harden guy.

I, not so much as that I would defend him in this thing.

But I was arguing that the heat should trade for James Harden years ago, right?

100%.

Uh, I've very, I've, I'm on record of being like, James Harden might be the best offensive

player in the NBA a few years ago.

When he was playing for the Houston Rockets at his very peak, I, yeah, there's version,

like there's, I've always sort of wanted it to work for James Harden.

I really do because I'm such a believer in his skill set.

I think he's a genius level passer.

I think he's a much better three point shooter than he gets credit for based because his,

his shot selection is so difficult.

I've, I've seen this guy shoot threes in, in pregame and I'm like, there's outside of

Steph Curry.

I don't know that there is a better three point shooter in the league at that time.

So I say all that to say this, what are we doing this for?

Like this isn't, this league, I know that we look at the box scores every single night.

We, we, we celebrate the big scoring lines and the big numbers and we give awards for

that kind of stuff and all this stuff.

But at the end of the day, we do this to win championships.

And as good as Harden was at his very peak, he was never good enough to get over the

hump.

And yes, he ran into a Warriors team that Dwayne Wade never had to face.

Dwayne Wade never faced an opponent as good as that Warriors team.

And I get that.

But also the Rockets almost beat that Warriors team and the reason they didn't is because

James Harden forgot how to shoot threes in the most important game of his life.

And if you, so I don't even want to play like the opponent part of this because time after

time, James Harden falls short in game sevens and in games that matter over and over and

over again.

And the one time, like, or not the one time, but I would say like, well, yeah, the one

time during Dwayne Wade's peak before the knee injuries and all that stuff really set

in in the 2014 finals.

The 2011 finals, they lost that game not because of that series, not because of Dwayne

Wade.

Dwayne Wade played great in that series.

You know, they didn't lose that series because of Dwayne.

Dwayne, time after time and after time, always showed up in the big moments.

And if you want to come at me with stats and all that stuff, okay, fine.

But I say this again, what do we do this for?

We do it to win championships.

And I've watched these games.

I've watched both of their, their entire careers.

I watched all of Dwayne's career and I watched all of James Harden's career.

Dwayne is just better.

He's a better player, two way better player defensively swing plays in a way that Harden can't

even imagine as a leader, as a guy who was a glue guy, one of the most unselfish role

players.

And you can do all this, but also between 2006 and 2010, I thought he was the best two guard

in the league over Kobe.

And he had a real argument to be the best player in the league, one of the few players

to really push LeBron at LeBron's peak as this guy actually might be better, certainly

as good.

And there wasn't, that list is very short.

And so I, I've watched, if you take Harden in this argument, okay, but I also kind of know

how old you are, not to do that thing, which I hate.

But I just think that me, I don't even blame you, like just go back and really watch Dwayne

Wade.

Because if the lasting memory of you is Dwayne Wade in like the 2014 finals, and you

don't really remember him in the 2006 files, I understand why you would take Harden

this argument.

In fact, it's the only place to take you, if you don't remember prime Dwayne Wade, you

never watch them.

I don't see why you would take them.

But if you watch that guy in the 2006 finals, that's just something Harden never did.

And it's why I've said this again, having this debate is a detriment.

It's an insult to Dwayne Wade.

Adversed Harden is an insult to Dwayne Wade's career.

Because he's closer to Kobe Bryant on the all-time list than he is to James Harden.

That's the kind of debate that we should be having.

The discussion we should be having about Dwayne Wade, there is a clear top three shooting

guards in NBA history.

It's Michael Jordan, it's Kobe Bryant, and it's Dwayne Wade.

And then it's everybody else.

And that's why I don't think Harden deserves to be in the same conversation as Dwayne

Wade.

Because he's part of everybody else.

I thought Drexel was pretty good, too.

I don't know.

He could be in that conversation with Harden.

Hi, that's a great player, right?

And it's a fun conversation, et cetera, but ultimately, it's so hard.

I see, I mean, the BAM out of bio, 83 point game, really kind of underscored just how people

view certain players.

And I think there's certainly a younger age bracket that will always hold Kobe for

some reason in such high regard, and it was just never the case for me.

He was not my generation's player by any stretch.

He was a poor man's Michael Jordan in a lot of ways.

And that's a pretty good company to keep, because Michael Jordan was an amazing player.

So that's fine.

But to hear people put Kobe as, I've seen this conversation a lot as the number one player

of all time, what are we doing here?

That's ridiculous, to be like, I watched the entirety of Kobe's career, and there's no

way he was the best player to be a history, not at all.

And I just feel like this conversation between Dwayne and Harden, et cetera, I don't know

why there's this need to carry the torch or kind of constantly remind people about

like Harden's greatness.

Like, we're aware of it.

Who's doing this?

He's a top 75 player.

He's got the ultimate honor, and he's going to be a hall of famous, going to be enshrined

there regardless.

He'll never win a ring.

Never.

Well, no, but even if he does to your point earlier, it won't be as the main guy.

And that's why I think the Patrick Beverly thing is interesting.

I think it's an interesting framing for the to kind of reignite this debate.

But it wouldn't be Gary Peyton winning one.

That's not fair to Harden, because Harden, you get so much credit for the longevity.

He's legitimately still in all star level player, but it wouldn't be the same as any of

the Dwayne Wade rings, and I hate doing that, but some rings matter more than others.

They do for certain players, right?

And so if he won in 2016, when the Rockets were at their peak, and he had put up ridiculous

monster numbers in the Western Conference Finals, and then again, NBA Finals, and he didn't

take it.

Which is what it would have taken.

BABP.

Sure.

Then I'll be like, you know, what?

Maybe it's a lot closer.

And even then I still don't think I don't think it still would make that difference, just

because again, the one-way nature of his career really just changes the way I see

him as a player.

And that's fine.

You can...

Look, Pete Marevich is probably a guy who a lot of fans don't even know, but he was probably

a better offensive player than James Harden was, and nobody talks about him, you know?

But he knew his...

Still Pete?

Yeah, he was a one-way player only, and that's up in the game.

Better nickname.

Yeah.

Pistol over the beard every time.

Flash over the beard.

I mean, just settle it right there, I guess.

Sure.

Yeah, I don't want to hear it anymore, but I'm sure we'll have this conversation a few

months from now again, because somebody will also bring it up.

But I just...

I underscore it every time it is an insult to Dwayne Wade that we keep having this.

Like I would rather have the...

I think...

I actually do think that there's a conversation of Dwayne vs. Kobe.

I think that's more of a conversation.

I know we're not allowed to say that anymore, but that to me is a more credible argument than

Dwayne vs. James Harden.

I'm trying to think of like the comparison, right?

It would be like...

I don't know.

Like LeBron to Paul George.

I'm like, what are we doing?

Like, Paul George is an independently great player.

Okay.

We could celebrate Paul George for an awesome career.

But what are we doing?

Like, it's not a comparison.

And Paul George...

Yeah, Paul George was a good player who was also much more versatile than Harding was,

but he was also a far lesser version of everything that LeBron was capable of doing.

Right.

So I kind of...

Like, that's...

Harding is a lesser version of everything Dwayne weighed did.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's fair.

So we're done.

We're done.

We're done with the story, man.

Until a few months...

No.

And we'll do it again a few months from now.

But that'll do it for us here of Lockdown Eat.

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