Overcoming Eating Disorders on Carnivore with Kelsey Buchalter! 1035

0:00Hello, and welcome to another episode of Boundless Body Radio. I'm your host, Casey Ruff, and today we have another amazing guest introduced you now. For 20 years, Kelsey Buu-Culture, but cycled through hospitals, medications, and even conventional treatment psychiatry could offer for anorexia, bulimia, and anxiety. None of it touched the underlying problem. What finally helped her was a single instruction from a nutritionist. Eat only red meat and eggs for 10 days. She is now a health coach at Ovedia Heart Health, and recently sat down with Dr. Philip Ovedia and Jack Heild on the staff my operating podcast to trace the biological mechanism behind

1:01that shift and to challenge a premise that most mental health experts never question, that the mind can be repaired while the body remains inflamed and malnourished. She draws a sharp distinction between disordered eating and dietary intervention, one that has nothing to do with what's on the plate and everything to do with why it's there. Before psychology can do its work, biology has to be stabilized first, and for Kelsey, that meant confronting the idea that her mental illness was never a character flaw, but a body in crisis. Kelsey is also a young singer-songwriter, actor, dancer, nutrition advisor, and host of the Human Theater podcast. Kelsey's music creates an intimate, soulful, and soft pop ambiance, and although her original music is her main focus, she does include selecting cover songs in her act, Kelsey Buu-Culture, with an absolute honor to welcome you to Balanced Body Radio. Oh my gosh, thank you so much. That was such a cool intro. Thank you. That's a cool intro. You are very cool. I love your blue-blocking glasses that you're wearing. Speaking of cool, how great is it to be a carnivore in South Africa?

2:04It's pretty cool. It's really, really cool. Yeah, yeah. Also, comparatively, it's to the prices of meat in America, and I have spent some time there. I'm living in luxury, so I can't complain. That's amazing. My wife also does personal training, and she has a client that's from South Africa. I can't remember exactly where, but he makes his own built-on and has given him a different version. He tells us that multiple families have multiple family recipes, and they all make kind of unique built-on, but anyway, he's delivered two or three different versions, and it is absolutely delicious. Yeah, no, it's really, really great. That's awesome. Yeah, that's great. Amazon just recently delivered a duplicate. It's called a jerky gun. It basically makes meat sticks or sausage, and he was the first person I thought of, so I just dropped it off at his house today, and he promised that he's going to make some South African jerky for us and some sausage for us, so I'm very much looking forward to that. Ooh, you have a nice little resource there. Yeah, absolutely. It was a good trade. I want to get to your personal story, but before we do, one of the things we left off

3:06of the introduction is your TEDx talk. Can you tell us about your TEDx talk? It was absolutely wonderful. I'm so glad you sang. As part of that TEDx talk, as well, you have an incredible talent for music for sure. Oh, my gosh. Thank you so much. Yeah, so the title of it was called Knowing the Voice, the Ultimate Biohack. And essentially, very loosely put, I spoke about the Vegas nerve, the parasympathetic nervous system, and the voice, essentially. So a little bit of my backstory, as you've already alluded to, is that music has played a very big part of my life, and just concurrently with my recovery story, I actually learned that the main nerve responsible for voice production was the Vegas nerve. And that was kind of like a massive sort of revelation in that, for me, the first red flag that something wasn't really right with me is when I didn't want to sing, I actually became mute. I couldn't even listen to music. And for me, again, my authentic self, I loved music. So I kind of now, you know, in hindsight, and in day to day practice, I kind of use my

4:12voice and my capacity to want to sing and perform and be creative as kind of like a litmus test to see like where I'm at, you know, regarding health and wellness in general, because I know that when I'm doing well, I want to be creative, I want to sing, I want to perform. So yeah, in the talk, it was, it's really about the voice, the Vegas nerve and the parasympathetic nervous system. And then I do join a little bit about my backstory too. Yeah, it's amazing. You did a great job, like I said, for somebody who doesn't consider themselves like musically inclined. I don't consider myself that. I don't have a talent for that. I like to listen to music, all kinds of different music and you certainly have a beautiful voice. For people out there who are not musically inclined, how can they use their voice to, like you said, like find themselves essentially? Yeah. Oh my gosh, I love that question so much. So of course, the Vegas nerve has become quite a buzzword in the health and wellness space. It is due to its ability to put the body into a parasympathetic state. So I think rest and digest, I know that's very simplistic, but just essentially resting and digesting, think par-a-paradise.

5:15And utilizing the voice has been shown to sort of stimulate vagal tone, which is really important, especially in the context of chronic stress, which I don't know anyone who is not necessarily experiencing chronic stress now in today's world of modern living. And just by default, of living in this modern world. So yeah, singing, chanting, humming, gargling, of course, even laughing, speaking to a friend, those are all wonderful and free tools that we can utilize to put the body into a parasympathetic state. But more than that, so in my practice, I utilize breath, reckoning, to help stimulate and strengthen vagal tone and just kind of regulate the autonomic nervous system. And it is the most beautiful thing to witness clients. And then of course, I first hand experienced this myself to go through that journey of using your voice and actually beginning to connect with your voice and essentially, like on a metzer physical level, you're in a truth. And that is a very deep, introspective journey that I don't think you can put a price to

6:19how rewarding it is to turn within and really connect to your true authenticity. And that in and of itself, this whole mess and morphesis that people go and I get to witness and I've experienced, myself is, it's like, it's, it's price, it's absolute gold. Yeah. That's amazing. Thank you for those tips. I really appreciate that. Now let's go back and tell your personal story. We mentioned a little bit about some of the things you've gone through in the introduction, but it goes much deeper and I think started a lot earlier than a lot of people would realize. Yeah. I always say like I kind of feel like I was born into anxiety and that from the get-go, I just recall always being stressed and anxious. And I mean, the first sort of like symptoms regarding overt symptoms was when I had like extreme separation anxiety for my mom, especially like I had to, I think my parents were suggest that they recommended me to delay the start of my preschool, for example, because I was just at too much anxiety. And you know, of course we all have big T, little T, traumas in our lives and I'm not

7:23to refuting that we all have those things and none of us come out of this world unscathed. But there was something clearly biological in the sense that my anxiety from the get-go was actually somewhat unexplained. Sorry. I just recovering from a bit of a cold. So I, I've soon come to realize that essentially what I was experiencing my whole life from a very young age was like kind of cellular inflammation and in my bio individual sort of manifestation of inflammation, of course we all have different manifestations of inflammation. That was just essentially with my mental health. So to go back to your question, it did start from a very young age and I think I was being such a shy, I mean I started ballet when I was three years old. So I think I was just being so shy, insecure, like high per vigilant, super, super high per vigilant, especially of what other people fought and responded to who I was.

8:24I kind of was the perfect brooding ground for an eating disorder to eventually manifest. And I kind of always say that like throughout school, the eating disorders, so specifically with my case, it was anorexia and bulimia, they were kind of somewhat contained when I was in school because there was like a set structure in place, you know, a routine in my day to day. But the minute I left school, SH1T hit the fan with my eating disorder because it kind of was like a kind of, it was the paradox of choice and that I really, a whole world awaited me. But I kind of like paradoxically crippled into like a really, really dark and dire state. So the rapid like severity of the anorexia just spiraled out of control once I left school. And that's, yeah, I mean from a young age, I started seeing a psychologist sometimes several times a week. I was in the standard of care, like all that my parents could do. I was going to every specialist physician under the sun because as up and above all the mental health issues, I also had IBS, I had chronic headaches. I had all of these disparate like physical symptoms too.

9:27And of course, as I've come to understand about the body, like that's all just essentially like just cellular inflammation manifesting in its own weird and wonderful ways. So to fast forward in 2018, when that nutritionist told me to eat red meat and eggs for only 10 days, although it was definitely longer than 10 days, and eight years. It was the first therapeutic intervention that actually actually felt like, oh my gosh, like is this what it's meant to be like to feel alive because you know, going to all of these specialist physicians, I was trying all of the medications too. And I had horrific, like absolutely horrific side effects to specifically any psychiatric medications. So yeah, hope that bonds is your question somewhat. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, definitely a lot of questions I still have for you. Do you assume like looking back and knowing the history in your country, do you think the trauma, do you think there's more trauma built into the culture just because of like the history of South Africa being very, very complicated?

10:32That is such an awesome question. And I think there's definitely, I mean, other, I'll see them, good, warm my day, like definitely intergenerational trauma, but I'll take it a step further and that's not only the history of South Africa, but my family's actually Jewish. So there is also that intergenerational trauma in my history as well. So that's something that I've definitely contemplated. I mean, I've spent my whole life, I'm now 30 trying to like figure this all out because it's just from the get go, never felt like okay and like safe in my body. And I've definitely thought about that for sure. It makes you well qualified to tackle the topic that you did in your TED talk, like talking to yourself even like comforting your inner child or however you want to describe it, I'm sure it was something that was very helpful for you. Oh yeah, 100%. 100%. Yeah. Got it. How severe would you say the anorexia and believe me was? Ooh, okay.

11:33Well, I know I don't want to trigger anyone, but yeah, you asked me so at one point at my lowest, I was 24 kilograms, which is I think like 50 something pounds. So it got pretty severe. I was in and out of hospitals. In fact, at one stage, I was involuntarily admitted into a government hospital here. And I had to stay there for seven months, like never knowing when I would be released. In fact, they only released me because my BMI was a little bit higher and they needed the bed for someone else. But they actually, this was in 2017. So about a year before I found the carnivod diet, they told my parents she's going to relapse. She's not ready to leave and they were right. I did relapse and I went after that a few months after that. I had gone in early 2018 to my last treatment center because I relapsed even worse than when I was involuntarily admitted. So yeah.

12:34And believe me, I mean, also it's just ironic that I'm a singer because of course it reacts. It reacts everything. And yeah, that was also pretty bad. Although interestingly, the belief me, I was kind of at bay when I was severely anorexic. But then it's, yeah, it's quite common in trying to recover that binge-ging and purging can. Yeah, it's all eating disorders are really, really complicated. And they often say like once you have one eating disorder, you kind of are susceptible to all of them. It's kind of like a coin. Wow. That's crazy. And that one treatment center continuously, you couldn't leave for seven months. Seven months. And that was actually a hospital. I was in the psychiatric ward in the hospital. And that specific hospital, interestingly, that psychiatric ward, because it was like an academic hospital, this ward had like, you could only be admitted if you had a medical condition. And so my medical condition was that I was so severely underweight.

13:34I needed, I was on bed rest. I couldn't walk. I had to be wheeled in a wheelchair because I was a risk of getting a heart attack. And lo and behold, I was feeling absolutely fine for whole time. Like I was like, what do you mean I can't walk? But yeah, that's what you have to do. So I was actually an award with people who, for example, were having non-epileptic seizures. And people who were, so they were like clearly struggling psychologically, which is why they were in the psychiatric ward, but their medical condition, there was a lot of non-epileptic seizures. And there was a lot of people on like renal dialysis. And it was just like, you know, in hindsight, what I know now about nutrition, like they were just pounding down like bananas. And like, in fact, that was their favorite, all the renal patients love their bananas. And I'm like, no. But yeah, it was quite an experience for sure. For sure. Is it as awful as it sounds or were there some like redeeming qualities about being there? Because it sounds awful.

14:34It's hell. It's hell, however. I've had really traumatic experiences in eating disorder clinics, but this hospital, because it was a government hospital, I kind of felt like that was the place where I actually had my rights. So like the dietician actually would listen to me. And she would work with me, not just like, like, like, reprimand me and just, yeah, I mean the sort of like, well, at least the inpatient treatment center that I've been in before for eating disorders in Cape Towns of Africa. Like for example, the first one I went to on my first meal, it's kind of like it almost is like a sick initiation joke when you are admitted and you sit down for your first meal with all the other usually its girls. I was never in a treatment center when they were when they was the guy. And but you're sitting at this table and the registered assistance is to you, okay, you're not allowed to leave until no one's going to leave the table until you're finished your meal. Nobody. And it's like nobody, nobody leaves until everyone's finished everything on their plate.

15:36And like those portions were like massive like American portions. And of course, yes, you do need to eat food when you are super malmarished, but to go, like that's kind of like sick, twisted exposure therapy. Like you don't just like if someone has the fear of spiders, you don't just like jump into it. And he has the spider in your hands right now. Like maybe you like just walk into a room with the spider like far away. And also in those situations you actually have psychiatric support. There was there was no side. Yes, there was a registered an RA, but there was no like support for me. I was basically like convulsing in my first like meal that I had to stuff down. I was not nearly ready to to have done that. So yeah. And also like you're mounted to 24 seven, which I understand. So like you can't go to the bathroom alone. That's understandable. But it's like it is super do humanizing, but it's like I say this with a lot of compassion and sensitivity and nuance because I understand where like where why they are like they are

16:42because it I mean, the interventions needed for something like eating disorders. And I would actually I'm going off on a tangent, but I actually think there's a I have a loose hypothesis. I don't have any evidence yet to back this, but I actually think there's massively like an into like a neurological interplay between eating disorders, addiction and OCD in that I hypothesize that the similar areas regions of the brain and all of those conditions are highly highly active in in those conditions. So similar sort of like neurological signatures. And why I say that is because eating disorders are often likened to addiction. And I would extend it further to OCD as well because you kind of see this like cross over of of symptoms. And so the interventions that are useful and have been shown to be really effective for people with OCD are like the more hands on almost like 24 hours supports provision, which you do need. So again, I'm not I'm not bad malding. I don't say this to clickbait fear of like all of these in patient treatments centers because there is there is this method behind the madness.

17:43I just think that at least in my experiences, there should have been more support for me because essentially a stressed body cannot heal. And to put someone who is already vulnerable and distressed in that distressing situation, I think that was quite cruel and it traumatized me so much. I'm still like living with like some of the like my nervous system like to this day. Still eight years later is still like traumatized. So it does leave a mark for sure. But yeah, I actually found the most sort of like human rights vibes went in the government hospital. But yeah, I basically was I stayed there until I was able to on the weekends and that was that was really, really hard because I'd gotten my BMI to a place where I could no longer have to be on bed rest. And I could spend at least a night or two on the weekend with my with my family. But going back into the hospital on like the Sunday evening, like you speak about like Sunday blues, like that is literally it was just it was almost like two traumatic.

18:45I actually would have like preferred not to leave because it was too hard to go back because again, I literally I never knew. I never knew like there was no end date. Yeah, for sure. It's it's deep. It's really deep. Wow. Do you mind if I ask you like a few more questions about it? I don't want to like live in this like traumatic merceness. No, no, no, no worries. Okay. So the addiction thing is very interesting. I love your hypothesis. We have both interviewed a bit in Johnson. I was just listening to your episode with her and she talks a lot about food addiction and how they can all be related and it's not a character flaw and all that stuff. So I'm so glad that you covered some of that. Um, okay. So so that plate of food you mentioned the spider analogy, which I love, but it seems more to me like it's it's not just a spider in the hand is maybe like throwing you in a pit of spiders or something like that's a big jump. But what about like the big jump? So mentally that would be insanely hard emotionally mentally to eat a bunch of food when you have been restricting food would be really, really hard. What about the physical ability to eat that much food? Your body gets used to a certain amount of food like how hard was it even like physically

19:49to stuff yourself like that? Oh, yeah. God issues are like known. They're like an absolute thing. And that's also traumatic in and of itself. Like I don't know if you've ever felt like really bloated and just ended like how that affects your mental health. So it's kind of like you're being at all angles like having this like absolute like not not good time. So it's rough. It's rough. Um, and I had the dietitians don't like me. They really don't like me. I was somewhat already like conscious of food and stuff. I mean, I had been gluten free since I was 16 because of my IBS and that was really helpful. So like to even get them to consider to like allow me to be gluten free in these clinics was a massive. But they really did not like me. Wow. Yeah. And then can you comment a little bit more about like the traditional treatment? Essentially, it's like exposure therapy where like if you're not eating cookies, they make you eat cookies or you know, that kind of thing. Is that what they were doing? Were there any other like things that they do or like what is conventional kind of eating

20:52disorder therapy look like? Yeah. So in an inpatient treatment center, I suppose it's similar to a psychiatric clinic, except there's a lot more. There's a lot less, well, there's a lot more like surveillance on you and monitoring. So essentially you have to eat six times a day. So three meals and then three snacks. Of course, you need a multidisciplinary team. So there is obviously a psychologist, there's a psychiatrist and there's a dietitian. But yeah, other than that, you just spend your days basically in these like minute moments because that's all you can kind of mentally handle. And it's like just from meal to meal essentially. And yeah, there's some activities that is like a little bit of a program. Some of them do have like occupational therapists and I mean like craft and stuff was my favorite. Like that was that was therapeutic for me. And otherwise you're just sitting and waiting. Wow. Yeah. Wow. I mean, I've been carnivore for a long time too. And just the thought of eating six times a day is like that sounds absolutely miserable

21:54to me now. And I don't have an eating disorder never having. So that like to do that from that background would be I just hell physically, mentally, emotionally. However, you want to say that would be terrible. Yeah. Look, I mean, especially the high carbohydrate foods that you're undoubted like undeniably. It's similar to hospital food, not anything different except there's a lot more emphasis on junk food because there should be no fear food. I do see the validity though in that like their their backing is that again, like you just trying to get like regular meals to kind of if you know, just tell the novice and signal to the nervous system that regular food is incoming. I get that. But again, like there's so much nuance because if you, for example, have someone who is like even on the verge of insulin resistance or like pre diabetes, like that's not necessarily the greatest idea for them, especially if it's like high carb. So I think there's just I wish that like all the different sects of health could really communicate with each other because that's I mean, even just in alipathic care, like

22:59sick patient in a general ward, like with several specialists, like none of the specialists are actually talking to each other. And then most of the things like most of the tragedies that we see in modern medicine are due to like medication clashes or just, you know, really people just not speaking with each other. So it's it's I can't I try not to I try to be as nuanced as possible because and also as liberal as possible because there is it's not black and white for any of us. So again, I don't want to like I'm not here to like bash the conventional eating disorder treatment because there is validity to that. I just think what gets lost is this nuance. Fair point. I love that fair point. Okay. Probably the last question before we get to the really good part of the story. The relapse. I don't know what the numbers are, what the cetyxics are, but it sounds like 100% of the people I talk to who leave something like that end up with some type of relapse. Is that I mean, I've heard most of the time you're going to a clinic. This is not the first time that pretty much anybody there has been to a clinic.

23:59They always rely like it's like it's staggering the number of times the people relapse. What was that relapse like for you? Yeah. Not only with eating disorders, but you know, addiction to yeah. Relapse prevention is a huge part of that. So what was the what were the relapses like for me? Yeah. Specifically. Oh, I mean, like you just the neural pathways are so deeply ingrained, you'll try anything to get your next hit. If you're not ready to recover. And like, I mean, that's something that I mean, I like Joe dispenser. Thank God there's like neuroplasticity and also Dr. Caroline Leif. But like it's it's hard. Like the neural part, like the brain. You know, whereas one can really, the body is amazing. So the body specifically with anorexia and anything. It rebounds really quickly. So you can gain weight pretty quickly. But it doesn't take the brain very quick at all to rewire itself. And that's where relapse like is so high. I mean, I'm sure you know this or maybe you don't, but like anorexia specifically has

25:03the highest mortality rate of any psychiatric illness. And most of my friends that I met in eating disorder treatment centers are either still, you know, going in and out of treatment centers or severely institutionalized or they're just no longer with us. So that's also why I'm like super outspoken about everything that I'm doing. Not only for eating disorders, but just in mental health in general. I really hope that I can help sort of demystify mental health because I think there's a lot of mysticism attached to it. You are making a difference, by the way. You even just with a TEDoc. It's absolutely wonderful doing your part. All the stuff that you do is really making a difference. Okay. So we get to 2018. You find a nutritionist. I don't know how many nutritionists you would have seen, but how in the world did you come across nutritionists that thought it would be a good idea to keep red meat and eggs and nothing else for 10 days? Yeah. No, it's like I still have to pinch myself, but this is like even my reality now.

26:07So yeah. It's a cut to very long story short. I was dating someone who had a good friend whose mom was a nutritionist. And I all I'd known about her, which is why I was open. I was on the verge of a relapse. I was definitely in a relapse, but I was on the like I was being threatened that I was going to be put in another treatment sense and I really didn't want to. So and this was after my last admission. So this was in 2018. And all I knew about her, which is why I was open to go to her, is that she was at least somewhat familiar with low-cob, with low-cob. So the banning diet is what we call it in South Africa. So essentially a ketogenic diet because a friend of mine had gone to her and that friend had fibromyalgia. And so she was utilizing a low-cob diet for her fibromyalgia and chronic pain and finding a lot of benefits. So that was a green flag for me. And I went to her. I'm pretty sure I remember correctly. And that our session was like nearly three hours. And we didn't speak anything about food. I was just speaking about essentially my life story.

27:08And right at the end, she's like Kelsey, for the next 10 days you're going to be eating red meat and eggs and that's it. And like it kind of came out of nowhere, but for some reason and the only like conclusion that I can come up with is that it was my primal instincts. But it just made sense. Like it literally just made sense to me. And I think I was also fortunate in that I again growing up in South Africa with really good meat. I've never had a sweet tooth, but I can eat meat. I loved meat. So it was kind of like someone giving me permission to eat the foods that I naturally loved too. So there is that. But yeah, it made sense to me. And I was always aware of like the green and the orange and the red lists of like food and the low-cob diet, but like still like again that paradox of choice. I was always crippled with like, okay, what vegetables do I choose on the green list? Like it was actually overwhelming for me. So to just literally narrow it down to think to being able to think of animal foods only, it eliminated decision fatigue for me. And that's also why it worked so well because that's all my brain could comprehend at that

28:11time, like just to narrow it down to that. So yeah. Wow. That's where that came from. Amazing. Is the Banting Diet very well known? Like is it kind of like a household thing you could ask anybody and they would at least know what it was? I wouldn't say it's as well known as like low-cob in America. But for the most part, like low-cob is pretty well known for most people in South Africa. Yeah, like I mean, you can go to a grocery store and you can see like low-cob options, not that they're actually really low-cob if you're even greed-indulist. But yeah, yeah, I wouldn't say that also like most restaurants here are not like super, some are a little bit more conscious, but others not so much. It's not like I wouldn't say it's like as a household staple is built on. Okay. Got it. And then I also wanted to ask you about Professor Timothy Noakes. Is that kind of more of a household name like would most South Africans know me is? Most of them.

29:11I would, yeah, I mean, there are obviously a lot that don't, but most do. Yeah, especially like in my demographic. Okay. Yeah. Okay. I really want to make this point. This kind of blew my mind the first time I ever heard about this. Putting somebody who's restricting their food on a restrictive diet. Like anybody would look at that diet and say that diet is very restrictive. You're restricting an entire food group. That's orthorexia. That's limiting yourself to all these things. There's no way you should do that for somebody who already has an eating disorder. I know you get this question a million times, but I find it absolutely fascinating. How do you respond to somebody who would ask you that? Yeah. Well, firstly for me, it was the most liberating thing as I've kind of alluded to it. Got rid of decision fatigue. And for the first time, I actually felt like what it feels like to have like food freedom essentially. I was wanting to eat. I was happy. I was excited. And yeah, like things were really, really great.

30:12So I often have this philosophical discussion with like myself and just other people, but like is choosing to eat healthy and eating disorder? And I think it really boils down to your intention because it can be if I'm doing a carnivore diet out of fear, which a lot of people I work with and including myself in some parts of my journey, I was definitely choosing carnivore out of this out of an eating disorder place. But I mean, that's nowhere near where I'm at now because now I'm genuinely purely choosing this because this is where I feel best. And this is, I'm genuinely doing this for my health, especially the more that I've learned and the more that I've worked with clients and just immersed myself in human physiology. And I'm like, yeah, this is just, there's like, it's a no brainer. It's like, it's the same sort of like argument that you would like ask someone like, okay, well, why do you deny a cigarette? Like why are you not smoking a cigarette? So yeah, I just want to again, be nuanced in that because this is obviously like, maybe

31:13it's a bias right now because I'm just working with a lot of clients who are coming to me more orthorexic, but it can be an eating disorder and it really does boil down to your intention. And whether you're doing this for like pure, this is for my health. I'm doing this out of like abundance and love for myself versus I'm doing this because I'm scared of a carbohydrate and I'm scared of glucose. There is a nuance and a difference there. Well, no, I don't think so. Go ahead. Sorry. I was just going to say, I don't think a carnivod diet is an eating disorder because it's the most nutrient dense foods for your body. It's like, it's the same, I would, yeah, it's the same question like, okay, well, then why don't you, why don't you smoke cigarettes? I wouldn't consider junk food food. That's a really good point. I love that you were used the word nuance. All of your answers in this interview have been incredibly nuanced. And like you said earlier, not black and white, very gray. So I really do appreciate that quite a bit. What were those first 10 days like? When did you start feeling better?

32:13Was it uncomfortable at all? Did you have it? Like you used to eating more of those foods like digestively? Like what was the first 10 days like? It was amazing. Like literally after my first meal, like in fact, even before my first meal, I was like, I am so excited right now. As I said, like someone gave me permission to go and eat the foods that I love and it was as quick as literally one meal and my brain turning on. I mean, yes, the caveat because I can, yes, someone in the comments being like, yes, I was in a diet state. I was under weight. So any nutrition would have made me feel good, yes. But no, because I had been in that position so many times before and I tried non-coneval foods and everything other dietitians were telling me and this was like, I mean, again, I literally live in so much gratitude and I have to pinch myself that I even can feel what I'm feeling right now because again to the backdrop of my whole life prior, like, I can't, you can't put words once you've found what it feels like to be healthy. You know, I'm not even saying that I'm in optimal health, but like, just compare it. It was just a complete one AD literally immediately for me.

33:16That's amazing. We had exactly the opposite reaction to when we first heard about carnivore. I turned off the episode of your one another, one of our mutual former guests, Sean Baker. When I heard him the first time, I think it was like 2017 or 2018 on Joe Rogan. I turned it off halfway through and said, this is the stupidest thing I've ever heard in my entire life. You were like, yes, let's do it. You just embraced it from beginning. Yeah, yeah. And it was going really well until I went to a follow-up consultation with my endocrinologist. And that was hard because I was so exce seen me in all of my stages of life and she obviously saw me at my worst as well. And I was so excited to go tell her about the carnivore diet and like, how much it's helped me, et cetera. And I get there and I tell her like, everything I'm eating and she goes, oh, that's a lot of calories. I feed the children in the road cost children's hospitals, all of that to fatten them up. Wow. And yes, I was in a better space. But like, it takes a few years to not be triggered by words, especially when from an

34:18eating disorder perspective. And that really set me up. And that's kind of where I said that like, you know, I did go in a little bit of a blip. I was still carnivore, but I was fearing all fat. So I kind of just went very, very lean and I do not do well with to lean meat. Like my body and brain needs fat. If I go to lean for too long, I'm like a mental health disaster. So that there was a little bit of a rough patch. And of course, the fear of calories and glucose was a thing, which is why I was speaking earlier and why I bought up the nuance of like your intention because I have lived it. So yeah. And then but once I started to add fat back into my diet, I was like, oh my gosh, like what why I can't do that again. Wow. Well, we know the process of, you know, recovering from eating disorders is gaining weight. What was that process like for you, like psychologically? Oh, it's really difficult. It's really, really difficult. And I wish I had a formula and like a direct clear cut succinct answer to help someone

35:18with this, but that is that is the journey. And it actually, it does feel unfair that like the thing that you have, like you're the most afraid of is what you actually have to do. And when you already suffered so much, but the biggest reframe that I think has been was a real help for me to hear. I can't remember where I heard this. I think it was, it was some other anecdote of an of an eating disorder that I heard. And she had described weight gain as weight restoration in that you're just restoring weight. You should never have lost in the first place. So that was a really powerful sort of mantra that I often had to remind myself of. And of course, sometimes, sometimes it's easier to internalize it than others. But no, that is, that is essentially, that is essentially the struggle. Yeah. So it's really difficult. It's not comfortable as well. Yeah. Not comfortable at all.

36:18Yeah. I've made this mistake several times on the show and I just made it again. I asked you that question in the past tense, which has the assumption that like, oh, you're not dealing with this anymore. You went on carnivore, you gained the weight, you feel great. It's nothing you have to think about or feel or whatever without realizing like, no, there's probably still things you have to think about and deal with today. Like it's like you said, it's a journey. Oh, yes. I love, I love that you bring this up. This is like, this is great. So I just want to comment on that in that. What carnivore has given me is the cellular resilience to get through the ups and the downs. I still struggle. Like we all are human. We all have like, I think this is also why I like, I'm just like, really wanting to be as nuanced as possible and provide context because that's so lost on social media right now. So the ability to discern what is applicable to you and what is not is a scale that can really help you in today's world of social media because fasting, intimate and fasting, omad

37:25is amazing in the context of someone who has excess body fat, who has type 2 diabetes and is insulin resistant, not for someone who is underweight and anorexic. So yeah, I took up myself off of an intention, but I'm really going to go about providing that nuance, but no, I still, I'm human. We are all human and I'm hoping to normalize that we have the good, the bad and the freaking ugly sometimes. Yeah. Thank you for being vulnerable and sharing that. I think it's really important because, you know, yes, you found a lot of healing, but it, again, also assumes that you don't need to continually kind of practice that. I don't think a lot of people realize how the brain heals when it's fed properly and it can, it can work so much better when it is getting a constant source of the fuel that makes it run the best. It changes the context for a lot of people. Oh, yeah, oh, yeah. I think the best analogy that I can use to describe this is if you have a call that requires diesel petrol, but you don't give it diesel petrol.

38:27It's not going to function optimally. So yeah, we're all nuanced and different, but essentially our biological makeup requires essential amino acids and essential fatty acids, like period. And our bodies require essential nutrients. And so if we don't give it that in a, in a, in a form that it's easily able to understand IE something that's not ultra processed. I mean, it's like putting diesel in a car that requires diesel, of course, is going to function a lot better. Yeah, really well said. We've had Nicole Rana on her show as well. And she works with mental health. And one thing that she's described, I think you've alluded to this in the past as well, is we have, in psychology, we have amazing tools that we can get people in different therapies and all this stuff. But again, like it's not really going to work as effectively if the person's brain is fueled with the wrong fuel. Like you said, like once you put the right fuel in, then those techniques can actually work way better. It's almost, it's almost like kind of crazy that anybody really can heal without getting

39:28the brain the proper fuel, you know? Yeah, 1000% on that there, this is a hot take. But I think before you even like utilize any supplements and even the cleanest diet, like if you're not in a parasympathetic state and if you're not, you know, essentially like a supplement will work more optimal if you're in a better, healthier state, like a period if you're even able to digest it and absorb and assimilate that because a lot of the time when we're unhealthy and we're all wearing like stuck in chronic stress, like we might as well, like we could be eating the cleanest diet, but you can't out eat, out meditate, out exercise, like chronic stress, for example. So I think the healthier the host, the better ability that your body, IE the host, can utilize all of these expensive supplements or whatever you're trying to utilize. Like it will only improve outcomes if you yourself are healthier. Yeah, okay, awesome. Well said.

40:28So with your journey, are you currently mostly carnivore now? Are there any foods that you've been able to bring in successfully or do you need to stay more on the strict side? Yeah, I am, I eat the rainbow of meats. So fish, chicken, beef, I love lamb. I have tried to experiment with a few things here and there, but I've never felt good. I suppose the non-conyful foods that I have in my day-to-day are coffee, and I do love coconut oil. Like for me, like a tablespoon of coconut oil with like some salt is like salted caramel. So yeah, and I do utilize something like apple cider vinegar now and then. Got it. Well the coconut oil will be so high in MCT that that must be an amazing fuel for your brain as well. Yes, indeed, indeed. Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah, tell us about the process of wanting to coach people and yeah, some of the certifications and coaching qualifications you've gone through. Yeah, so I think because I had experienced such a 180, I knew after I studied musical theater, like after I graduated, I like, I needed to become certified to help people because,

41:31I mean, of the fact that Anne Rexley alone has the highest mortality rate and I just felt that like it's actually criminal for me not to speak out or even help people because I was stuck in the standard of care. So I was playing with the idea of going to study like dietetics, for example, but like, I'm still thinking about it now, actually, but like I just couldn't put myself to do that. Knowing what I know, I just, and I also didn't want to support that system. So I decided a professor to know, because I would do all of his trainings on nutrition network. So I've done all the nutrition networks trainings and I chose to do because I'm not a medical professional. I chose to do the coach practitioner certification pathway. And so I am a certified nutrition network coach practitioner. And as I said, I am, I've also done a Sancota peer recovery training. So that deals specifically with addiction and a few other things. But I, yeah, I'm still, I'm tempted to go back and study dietetics just for the, for

42:35the funds, for the, for the laws. I don't know. Yeah. I'm not a dietician. Obviously I am a nutrition coach. And every two years I have to redo my credential to be able to do that and pass a test. And I have to answer certain questions in a certain way to pass a test. And I'm like, I know the real answer here, but I have to answer it a certain way. And yeah, you need your whole grains. And this how many vegetables you need and all that stuff. So I certainly understand that it would be cool to have the credential of a dietician. Yeah. And I think it also might be a way to hopefully open the conversation within the system as well. Although I do think that the tides are changing. And I think people just can't live like they have been living for too much longer. So yeah, I agree. I'm about as optimistic. Yeah, me too has been in a long time. It doesn't even sound weird when you bring up carnivore to somebody like five or five, six years ago, if I would have mentioned it, people would look at me really strange. And now people don't even really like that. And I so that is really helpful with nutrition network. I have not done their certification.

43:36But I've heard it's different modules done by different experts in nutrition. Is that correct? So it's actually it was first started for medical practitioners nutritional sort of education. From I mean, lecturers from all over the world. There's Dr. Robert Sivas, Anthony Chaffee, there's me, there's gosh, Bitson Johnson, like so many top researchers, leading scientists and medical practitioners in the field of just low carb nutrition. I think Georgia Ead was the lecturer. I could be wrong. And Dr. Andrea Salseda, she's a gynecologist. So yeah, there's so many different trainings. There's like, there's so many to choose from. And you're just essentially as if you're in medical school being lectured by these top scientists and medical practitioners about, I mean, it's all relating to sort of like low carb nutrition. But I mean, there's there's a cancer module. There's neurology. There's cardio health, cardiovascular health.

44:37There's kids. I mean, there's women's health. There's so many different things, but it's, yeah, it's it's all CPD accredited as well, which is really cool. That is really cool. So tell us about your coaching today. Like is it your full time job to do coaching? Or how do you work with people? That kind of thing. Yeah, it is, it is essentially full time. So I do work as a metabolic health practitioner for Dr. Ovedia, I fix hearts. And then I also see individual clients one-on-one as well, all group, all group. Yeah, got it. Tell us about the team at Ovedia's heart health. I love most of those people, but what has been like working with them? Oh, gosh, it's a dream. I have to like pinch myself. It's like, no, it's it's everything. And I'm learning so much and everyone is so nice. And I really, I mean, I think it's just because everyone's so nourished. They're really all well-nourished. So it really, really does. It makes it so much fun. Yeah. I love everyone there. Just to think like, Krishna Hanks or somebody, like, they're so fun to like hang out with

45:40and like get a view of it. They're always just happy. And yet, it's like going to a low-carb conference when everybody's ketogenic, supposedly. Yeah. The energy is just so high. The vibes are so high. That's great. Is there a specific client that you like to work with? Like are you mostly working with people who have eating disorders as their background? Or do you kind of work with everybody on that kind of thing? I work with everyone because again, the basic premise is that we're all human. And our human physiology is all required the same inputs. Of course, you know, they'll be iterations and there'll be different specifics of all of these inputs. But they all require the same thing at end of the day. And I think that's kind of also what I've come to realize is that like just to zoom out and major in the majors for all of us is going to be like 90% of the work. Yeah. That's amazing. So, what are the stories you want to share with us? Ooh. I... Oh my gosh. There was one wonderful young boy who had non-verbal autism. And by the end of...

46:40I mean, he had a multi-disciplinary team. But I just looked over the nutrition and sort of nervous system component of it. He was communicating, he was able to go to the bathroom without his father, like he was independent. And it was just... He was off all of his supplements and medications and it was just like... I mean, he was like interacting with me over the Zoom. I mean, it's all virtually. I work virtually. So, that was... I mean, to this day, I get goose bumps speaking about it. That was beautiful. That was so beautiful. That's incredible. And you do work with a wide range of different people. Do you have a specific example of somebody that has dealt with eating disorders and erect your bulimian particular? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. I do. And I... I think the most gratifying thing, and this is a big part of my practice, is to... to help calm the nervous system. Because a stressed body cannot heal.

47:43And whatever that looks like for someone is obviously going to be different. But this one particular client, like even just to get her to a place where... And it took a long time. But for her to come to me and say, I've decided, like, I may even want to admit myself into a clinic because I know that I need the help. And I want to... I'm doing this because I want to recover. And she obviously knew like what I think about clinics, but I think that that was actually the best decision for her to do. And why I'm saying this is that I'm... In all of us, we have... And I love this analogy from Bitton Johnson. We have a blue dog and a red dog, but especially in things like addiction and eating disorders, we have a very loud red dog. And the red dog represents the eating disorder or the addiction. And the blue dog represents our authentic selves, like our pure essence, like who we are, what we love, what fuels our fire. And a big part of my work is because essentially the dog that's going to be alive and well

48:45is the one that we keep feeding. And so if we can nourish and feed in all regards, the blue dog, like that is kind of what I say, the antithesis of addiction slash eating disorder is passion and purpose. And so because when we're connected to who we are and we're not stuck in the weeds and we're authentic and we are doing things that we love and fuel our fire, we move forward. And we can, in that state, the body is more parasympathetic and in that regard, the prefrontal cortex is online. And we can actually choose and have the capacity to be conscious of actually wanting to heal. So her coming to me telling me that she really thinks that an clinic will be good for her was like music to my ears because I could also feel it like through the screen that she... She was calm, she was stable and she was clearly connected to her. Her blue dog was alive and well in that moment.

49:47So for someone, a lot of the times when you're stuck in the ed, what they say, you definitely want to resist going into a clinic. But someone who is connected and the prefrontal cortex is online will admit that they have a problem and want to seek help. So that was kind of like a very recent success story in the front of my mind that I thought that I could share. I mean, there are many others, but that's just one for now. That's a beautiful way to end this conversation. You're doing incredible work. And I understand that you have the desire to share and that's why you wanted to do coaching, but there's so many people out there that probably would not want to share, would not want to get retraumatized in any of this. And you took the opposite path and are sharing it, you're sharing it on your podcast and yeah, and your social media is and yeah, it's just really wonderful. This has been an amazing conversation. I really, really appreciate it. Where can people go to find you, connect with you in your work, we'll tag the TED talk as well so people can find that. Where can also can people listen to your music as well?

50:49Like if you've got a place that we can listen, that would be amazing. Ooh, I actually don't, I mean, I have a few videos on YouTube, but they're so old. They like from 2012. I should probably get on that and record some of my, I mean, songs that I've never actually recorded. So I'll get back to you on that. That's a good thing that I should definitely no longer procrastinate in doing, but I'm most active on Instagram right now. So that's at Kelsey Beholda, so KELSEY BUCHALTER. And then my podcast and I have been a little bit of a break that I'm getting back, I promise. I've got a few episodes that I need to release. Is the human theater, but it's spelled THETRE because, hashtag South Africa. And you can find that on Apple and Spotify. But yes, I'm my most active on Instagram, sir. Reach out to me there. Awesome. We will tag that all up in the notes and I think our audience will agree once they listen or watch the TED talk and listen to your voice and your music.

51:49They're going to want you to record some of it and put it out there where we can access it because you have a beautiful voice and a real nat for music. And like we said, just can't thank you enough for showing up today and talking about this is an amazing chat and we really, really are grateful for you. So thank you so much. Thank you, KC. Appreciate it. Thanks. This has been another episode of Boundless Body Radio. Thank you so much for listening to and supporting Boundless Body Radio. We are approaching another massive milestone as we are set to publish episode number 1,000. Oh my goodness. When I started the podcast in 2020, I never imagined that we would record so many amazing episodes. Thank you to all of our incredible guests for sharing their time and wisdom and of course, a big thank you to you, the listener, for joining us along the way.

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