Post Mortem | What the Neighbors Saw

A thoughtfully built wardrobe comes down to pieces that mix well and last.

Quince offers premium essentials designed to do just that.

Their collection includes lightweight cashmere sweaters, short sleeve mongolian cashmere polos,

linen bottoms and shorts, and teas in 100% Pima cotton and European jersey linen,

versatile pieces that work season to season.

Quince says they're able to provide high quality clothing without the traditional markup

by partnering directly with trusted factories that uphold strong standards for craftsmanship

and ethical production.

The cashmere is 100% mongolian.

The cotton is long staple and resistant to pilling.

And the European jersey linen is breathable, lightweight and durable.

Every piece is built to hold up to regular wear and maintain its appearance over time.

Stop over complicating your wardrobe.

You don't need a closet full of options, just pieces that actually work.

Right now, go to quince.com slash 48 hours for free shipping and 365 day returns.

That's a full year to build your wardrobe and love it.

And you will now available in Canada too.

Don't keep settling for clothes that don't last.

Go to quince.com slash 48 hours for free shipping and 365 day returns.

Quince.com slash 48 hours.

The all new 2026 Toyota RAV4 is here.

And it builds on everything drivers know and love about Toyota.

With a redesigned look and modern tech that makes life behind the wheel easier than ever,

the 26 RAV4 comes standard as a hybrid,

providing smooth, efficient performance for both city streets and longer journeys.

While the available all-wheel drive keeps you in command when conditions are unpredictable.

The new RAV4 is designed around the way people actually use their SUV,

from daily errands to weekend adventures.

While the GR Sport model, coming soon, both CNET combined 320 horsepower

in a plug-in hybrid drivetrain with a GRTune suspension for an even more responsive,

exciting drive.

No matter which RAV4 you choose, you'll enjoy the reliability Toyota is known for,

coupled with the inspiring performance that's unique to Toyota.

Shop more and find details at toyota.com.

The all new RAV4 from Toyota.

Let's go places.

Welcome to Postmortem.

I'm 48 hours correspondent Natalie Morales filling in today for Ann Marie Green.

And today we are discussing the case of Gary Herbs,

who was reported missing by his wife in 2014.

Three years later, a dog discovered his skull in rural Wisconsin

with a gunshot wound in the back of the head, joining me today to discuss his fascinating report.

His 48 hours correspondent Peter Van Zaat, thanks for joining us, Peter.

Hey Natalie, how are you?

I'm good, thank you.

And this one really was riveting.

Absolutely.

And the notion that this man in rural Wisconsin, he goes out,

sees his dog nine on something in the driveway, comes up and checks it out and sees a human skull

and calls police.

It was just incredible.

Now Peter, this hour also features your exclusive interview

with a convicted killer and this is one of the most revealing conversations

about a murder that I've heard here on 48 hours.

Yeah, over the years I was trying to add it up.

I've talked to about 19 accused killers.

None of them has ever admitted it.

We've had very confrontational interviews and things and gotten very close to getting

them to admit.

But in this case, Austin Herpes' Gary's son not only admits it, but he gives his details

step by step of how he murdered his own father and left his corpse in the woods

for animals to eat to destroy the evidence.

He delivers that matter of faculty and it's chilling and yet fascinating.

And he gets into his reasons for doing it.

We're going to get into all of that and more.

But first, a quick reminder, if you haven't watched or listened to the episode yet,

what the neighbors saw, do go check it out and then come on back and join us for a conversation.

So in 2017, after that dog dug up an unidentified human skull, police then

went to the woods in Wisconsin.

They found additional human remains there, but investigators were unable to identify the victim

until three years later.

And that's when genetic genealogists got involved and they were able to use DNA to trace a family

tree, which then led them to identifying the victim as Gary Herpes.

Gary's wife Connie had filed a missing persons report for him back in 2014. Peter,

what was her story back then?

Connie said that Gary just walked out on them, packed some clothing, took $5,000 in cash,

but he left his cell phone behind. That seemed very strange.

Connie said that he left in a gray Honda vehicle that was driven by an unknown person.

And Connie says that she was at home, and this is important later, she was at home when Gary left her.

And only reported him missing when Gary's sister asked them to many months later,

when there had been a death in the family and they wanted to notify Gary.

That's when they learned that he was missing and they urged Connie to file that report.

So there was a gap in the timing from when he went missing to

then when they actually reported it. And then when investigators were able to finally track down Gary's

wife Connie and their adult son Austin in 2020, they said, as you did, that Gary walked out

on the family seven years earlier and described him as being volatile and abusive.

But investigators were immediately suspicious about the stories that they were telling,

because some of the details weren't really adding up, right Peter?

That's absolutely right. In 2020, Connie told cops she was at the library when he left,

not at home. Remember her first story, she said she was at home. Also in 2020, Connie said that

her 40 caliber gun had been taken, but she didn't mention anything about her pistol being taken

before. And Austin's version of events changed throughout his interviews. His first police

interview, he claimed a stranger picked Gary up and drove away, but in a second interview,

he said the driver was a mysterious man with tattoos who was sketchy. And during a second interview,

they both consented Austin and his mother Connie to a polygraph test. Now Connie didn't show any

signs of deception, but Austin did. And by this point, investigators had a hunch that they were

lying, but there was no other evidence. So they had to let Connie and Austin go, even though their

instincts told them gosh, they must have been involved in Gary's disappearance.

Well, the investigators then continue on with their work trying to put the case together. They

then go canvas the neighborhood. And that's when they were able to get clues from the neighbors

who said he was a confrontational and retaliatory guy. So the neighbors Chattankaya told them back

in 2013, they remembered seeing Austin and Connie scrubbing the floors in the middle of the night.

They were loading large garbage bags and what appeared to be a rolled up rug or a carpet into Gary's

truck. Yet they didn't report any of this to the police. Why not, Peter? Yeah. And Kaya recalls that

when they observed them loading up the garbage bags or husband Chattankaya, I think they finally

killed him, but they were going off on a hunch since they did not see the body or any blood. They

thought Gary as the whole neighborhood did was a horrible man. And in some ways potentially dangerous,

the neighbors also told investigators that look, murder is never the answer. And that no one

deserves to be murdered, but they also hope that these two would not be punished in any way

because they felt Gary was just that terrible of a human being. So they speculated from the get go,

then it was Connie at Austin who killed Gary and that he didn't just walk out on the family as,

you know, Connie and Austin were telling people back then. Yeah, it's like that scene out of the

Wizard of Oz, you know, Ding Dong, the Witch's Dead, the Witch and all, which that's the way it was

in that neighborhood. And when they were watching Austin and Connie after he had disappeared,

they were so happy, you know, they were walking around with cookies and offering them to neighbors

that they hadn't really spoken to much because they said Gary always kept them indoors. And

neighbors also saw Austin and Connie, if you're ready for this, setting up for a yard sale. And what

was for sale? Well, it was men's clothing, Gary's clothing, obviously, men's shoes, ammo boxes,

tools, Gary's favorite right along lawnmower. And when Kaya asked Connie where Gary was,

she replied, he just didn't want to be married anymore. And he left.

Yeah, but the real crack in the case was when a cadaver dog radar then searched the former

Herbsthows in 2020 and detected the scent of human remains. Now as a dog lover, I love that you

have two dogs that really helped be the key in helping solve this case. Yeah, the handler Dan

Moldenhauer told us that radar is a German shepherd rescue from Wisconsin. And when she detects

the presence of human decomposition, she will turn around, sit and look right at Moldenhauer. And

I witnessed this myself after all these years, radar went through the Herbsthows and alerted at

the very spot where the new owner said that she had seen this red stain on the floor. And at the

time radar alerted and when we were there, she did it again, which was really something to see.

The dog also alerted at the basement sliding door that led outside, which is where, of course,

the neighbors had seen the two of them bringing out bags and what appeared to be this rolled up

rug, which when they were talking to each other, they thought, gosh, could there be a body inside

that? And all of the areas that radar detected were also areas where the lumenol glowed 48 hours

people know very well. You spray this chemical lumenol. It detects blood and turn off the lights and

they put a special light that causes that chemical to glow. And all over that house, it was glowing.

It looked like, you know, time square and that told them this was definitely the murder scene.

So even though Peter, this was largely a circumstantial case back in November 2020,

police then arrested Connie and Austin for Gary Herbst's murder. And when Austin was interviewed

then for the fourth time, that is when he finally said he shot his father and he alleged he did it

because of years of physical and psychological abuse. Now you Peter were able to sit face to face

with Austin. You spoke to him at length. What was it like sitting across from him hearing all

that detail? He was one of the most fascinating killers I have ever met and I can call him that

because he admitted to it. He was charming, articulate, intelligent, a great storyteller and a man

who spent all this time in prison. He's really thought about this story and he has ready-made

answers for whatever you ask. He believes the killing of his father was justified and he told me

without any emotion that if he could go back in time and the circumstances were the same,

he'd shoot him again. He tells one story during the course of the interview that there was this

bloody mess down there on the floor. We didn't put any of this in the show itself. His mother comes

home and she sees it and they were both just matter of fact about, we need to clean this up.

But despite all of those years passing, Austin never came forward. Remember this to tell the truth

about what had occurred inside that house until he had to, until basically he was confronted with,

we know you did this. There's a really interesting exchange that I had with Austin that wasn't in the

show that I want people to hear. It's about his thought process leading up to his confession

because it suggests that there was a possible cover up here.

About four and a half hours into the questioning you finally do speak up and you say,

I would like to tell the truth, but I need to talk to my mom first.

Why did you have to talk to her? Was that to fabricate another story?

I think it was partially that part of my brain was thinking, well, I need to talk to my mom and,

you know, figure out what to say to get away with this. Now, later on in my life here,

I think I was looking for an excuse to tell the truth. I think I was looking for a way to

to confess what I had done because even though I had had these years of happiness and freedom,

it's a weight. It truly is a weight having something like that and knowing that nobody knows.

Yeah. So interesting, Peter.

Yeah, to have a discussion on how to get away with this murder, wow. He is a contradiction all

the time. You feel sorry for him in one moment and then others, there's this cold calculation

that's going on. So that's what makes him so fascinating.

Yeah. Well, Austin did say on the day of the murder that Gary and Connie had gotten to some sort

of argument, Connie then left. He said she went to the library, Gary then fell asleep on the couch

and that's when Austin said he saw the gun under the skirt of the couch. He said that's when he sort

of went into this mode where he started to fear for his life, for his mother's life. He picked up

the gun and then he shot Gary while Gary was asleep laying on that couch. I want to play more of your

interview when you grilled Austin about his actions. What do you say that your life while he was

sleeping there on the couch was not under imminent threat and that you could have picked up the gun

and left the house and gone to the police. You didn't have to shoot him. This wasn't legally

self-defense. This was murder. Correct. What do you say to all that? I have to refer back to, again,

18 years I've been told if you try to have me arrested, if you try to flee, if you try to, you know,

go your own way, I will find you and kill you. You believe you have no doubt in fact that when

he woke up, he would have been the one to pick up that firearm, he would have been the one to pull

the trigger. Absolutely. 100%. Kill or be killed. Exactly. And it's a terrible situation to have

been put in. Kill my father or accept that my death is on its way. The question I still have to

this day was a kill or be killed or was it kill and will be happy the rest of our lives by eliminating

this man who by many accounts was a nasty personality with a mean disposition. And he says that he

suffered abuse. He's asking others to understand that he was protecting his and his mom's lives.

Keep in mind, he always said, I was my mother's protector and he really did believe she would be shot.

But prosecutors said there's a lot of ways of protecting people these days and that Austin should have

picked up the gun, gone to cops. But we've seen, of course, in other cases where victims of domestic

abuse did all the right steps and they still ended up being killed by their abusers.

Prosecutors argued, however, you can't let someone off easy for murder just because they claim

that they were abused or else anyone could say that and as they told me off camera,

we could have a million people murdered a year if that was a legitimate basis for killing someone.

Time is changing the way people bank. They offer fee-free, smarter banking built for you,

unlike other banks that may saddle you with overdraft fees and monthly charges.

Time makes everyday spending work harder by delivering real rewards and real financial progress.

You get fee-free banking with overdraft coverage. You can count on tools that help build credit

history and savings that earn up to 3% APY that's 7 times higher than a traditional bank.

And because you're a 48 hours listener, you can earn up to $350 by joining and making qualifying

direct deposits. Time also just launched the time card. The cashback card that helps you build credit

with your own money. No annual fees, no interest and with qualifying direct deposits earn 1.5%

cashback on eligible purchases every single day. I think I know a few friends who could have

benefited from using the time card when they were just starting out. Time is not just smarter banking.

It is a rewarding way to bank. Join the millions who are already banking fee-free today.

Head to chimed.com slash 48 hours. That's chimed.com slash 48 hours. It only takes a few minutes

to sign up and 48 hours listeners can earn up to an extra $350.

Chime is a financial technology company. Not a bank. Banking services and the secured

chimed visa credit card are provided by the bank or bank NA or stride bank NA.

Optional services and products may have fees or charges. C chimed.com slash fees info. Terms apply.

Limited time only. Must open the new account and complete qualifying activities to earn rewards.

Advertised annual percentage yield with chimed plus status only. Otherwise 1% APY applies. No minimum

balance required. Chime card on time payment history may have a positive impact on your credit score.

Results may vary. C chimed.com for details on applicable terms.

Reaching your weight loss goals doesn't have to mean completely changing the way you live your life.

What if you could make healthy progress with a treatment plan that included

medication access to 24-7 support nutrition tips and more. That's possible with weight loss by

hers. Through hers you are connected with a medical provider who determines if treatment is

right for you. These licensed providers learn your story and create a personalized plan to

deliver healthy progress you can maintain. Hers offers access to ongoing care, dosage and

medication adjustments plus lifestyle and nutrition tips. Feel your best self again visit

for hers.com slash 48 hours to get a personalized affordable plan that gets you. That's

f-o-r-h-e-r-s.com slash 48 hours for hers.com slash 48 hours. Weight loss by hers is not

available everywhere prescription required. See website for full details important safety

information and restrictions. Welcome back. Now Austin Herpes claimed that he shot his father

Gary after he alleges Gary abused him and his mother for years. But Peter despite all those

allegations did police ever get any reports of abuse or did family members become aware of any

such claims of abuse. Prosecutors say there was no reported evidence of abuse and that the first

time Austin and Connie talk about abuse is after Gary's body is identified and a murder investigation

is launched and Gary's the victim's sister Linda and her husband hung out with them many many

times before there was this sort of breakup in the family and they never saw any evidence of

abuse not a bruise not a scratch cut. In fact Linda's husband was a veteran cop of 30 years trained

to look for signs of abuse and he said whenever he saw Austin and his father Gary together that

there was a loving relationship and they had a great time together. But remember and this is

important Linda was estranged from Gary and hadn't seen him for years and over time who knows

the abuse may have gotten worse. Yeah and I mean of course the other side of that Peter we know

with domestic abuse victims that they usually suffer in silence or they fear that if they tell

someone the abuse will just get worse for them. And psychological abuse well you can't necessarily see

it that it doesn't give you bruises or a black eye. So this is what's made my head spin around

during the course of this of this investigation and it spins to this day. You raise the issue with

Austin we have a little bit more of your exchange. Prosecutors also say that there is no what they

call real evidence that either you or your mother were ever physically abused by Gary. You never

called police. You didn't seek help from the court system. You didn't seek help from any social

agencies. And what do you say to that? For as many abuse cases that are reported to police

for as many people who contact them and receive restraining orders against other people due to

domestic abuse and violence. I don't know the statistics but I can guarantee you there are

justice many that go unreported. Not everybody has the freedom or the courage or the ability

to call the cops to receive a restraining order. Why didn't you ever share with a friend

my father is abusing me and my mother we we fear him. They could find no one to back up your

story and hide it. I had attempted to when I was younger and it brought me either being bullied

because I was a weird child or just apathy wasn't there problem and I I mean that I'm talking

kindergarten first second grade as a child I was like okay nobody cares so I'll just keep this

to myself. It's a compelling story I can't tell you that it is untrue it's just as as prosecutors

who are suspicious about all this say it only came out when their lives were on the line and this

was the only defense in the prosecutor's minds that they could put forward that in some ways would

create sympathy for them and and the notion that they had was that that could lead to a lesser

sentence. You then asked Austin how he and his mother Connie decided to dispose of Gary's body I

want to play a little bit more of your interview this part didn't make it into the hour. We drive

for I'd say about two two and a half hours I start taking county roads and there is a like

almost like a square of forest and then a field and then you try to dig a hole a grave yeah what

happens in the process of doing so cars you know I can still see the lights on the road of vehicles

that passed by and I saw a vehicle go by and I heard the vehicle slowed out so at that point I got

nervous and I went back to the car I figured that wildlife would take care of the rest. What do you

mean wildlife to care the bears foxes they would devour the body the bones would be scattered

nobody would know that seems a bit barbaric absolutely I was not in a state of mind that

I ever want to revisit I was at the lowest I'd ever been

built in my emotions and in my humanity.

Hmm dump the body so animals with eat him and he says it so matter of factly even now there's no

emotion behind those words it's it's he's like he's delivering a report it it became in a way the

perfect cover up you know evidence is in the stomach of beasts and they also ended up getting rid

of other evidence according to Austin after they returned home they cut up the couch into pieces

because there was blood all over the couch they put the pieces in plastic bags and placed them

in Gary's truck along with the rug that's the stuff that the neighbors believe actually saw

and drove to a campsite where he and his mother burned the remaining evidence they also disposed of

the gun used to kill him in a lake that's that was nearby and after the murder they did everything

possible to cover up what they had done they lied to cops and I said to him that's what criminals do

and he says yeah that is and did they ever tell you if they thought at all to call the cops and

and you know to claim even that this they did this in self defense instead of you know trying to

cover up what was a murder yeah I was a little surprised by this Austin said that he and his mother

didn't call the police because they believe the cops are evil Austin told me that he was made to

feel scared that if he did call the cops he would be locked away for life so they lied to cops

for years let's talk more about Connie Herpes because she pleaded guilty to aiding an offender

and accomplice after the fact she was sentenced to two years three months without a trial but under

Minnesota sentencing guidelines Connie ended up serving just three months behind bars she was

released in May of 2022 now in your interview with Austin Peter you raised the prosecutor's

speculation about whether Connie might have actually been the one to have shot Gary Herpes

and that Austin as he said he was always his mother's protector was he perhaps the one who was then

taking the fall for it yeah the prosecution really wanted to cross examine Connie to challenge her

about her story if if she was at the house or at the library but because she took this plea deal

she didn't go to trial and they never got that chance and of course we asked Connie for an interview

and she turned us down well Austin ultimately pleaded guilty to second degree murder and in 2021

a judge sentenced him to 12 years and six months now Austin will be eligible for release in

2029 Peter were you at all surprised by the sentence yes there's a you know discretion with the judge

she heard his story and people who've listened to this podcast you get a sense of of this young man

the intelligence you don't sense there's some demonic threatening thing in his personality she

believed his story of abuse the prosecution honestly was flabbergasted by how light a sentence

was given to both Connie and Austin and consider this in addition to the murder Connie and Austin

they'd obstructed an investigation they lied to police officers that's a crime they

desecrated a corpse and you would have thought those things would have been reflected in the length

of their sentences but it was not but as you report Peter which was so fascinating is hearing

from the neighbors again who you know they hated Gary Herbst and they were actually hoping that

Connie and Austin would have to serve no time they didn't want them to do any hard time I don't think

we ever hear people being that empathetic and supportive to defendants in a case of murder

yeah the neighbors the former neighbors are very supportive of the two of them one said that she

thinks Austin's sentence is too much time and that it's wrong considering the abuse and another

neighbor felt that Austin's actions were justified and he even offered to help him when he gets out he

told me I might offer him a job and they felt the Austin they got to know was not a threat to society

in any way well one can hope that he's he's learned a lot from this experience and having the time

to think about his actions but thank you again for great reporting and for joining us

thanks Natalie and thank you all for listening now if you like this podcast please rate and review

on Apple podcasts or Spotify

always for you so don't you be streamed out pain ever

I'm back I'm really back school spirits returns why am I here not dead right disruption on this

campus will not be created I look crazy it's because that's how I feel I don't know how to live in

two worlds secrets lurk there are others beneath the surface they're not like us we need to get

out now school spirits new season now streaming only on paramount plus