Project China: Gearing

Hello and welcome to Cycle Systems Academy podcast.

It is a sunny Saturday morning down here in Devon. What's it like up in Pables, John?

Uh, agree. I think it's going to rain soon, but not too bad for Scotland, particularly since we're, you know, quite late in the evening.

Yeah, and it is actually feeling like autumn anyway. So what we wanted to do today was avoid everything else that's going on in the world.

Because apart from cute pictures of cats, everything seems to be absolutely mad.

And if you're not raging right now, guys, you are not paying attention.

But I'm going to steer away from that. I'm going to steer away from that.

And we're going to go to our happy place, which is talking all about John's bike and trip to China.

So what's the latest John? You scored a frame, I believe.

Well, I'm going to do the ride on a Genesis quadifer.

Yeah.

We're still trying to decide whether we go for the slightly heavier 725 or the 53.

They're just launching the range just now.

So I've got some last year's stock, which we can look at.

And also some of this year's stock coming.

So it's, it's not a freebie, but it's, um, it's the best bike that I can get for the value.

I think we looked at aluminium bikes.

We looked at tinium bikes.

And I ended up coming back to my preferred material anyway, steel, because it's reliable.

If it dents, it won't collapse.

You know, if the fork breaks, you can rent a young boy to what the bell was in fact at a local forge.

And the geometry is perfect for a beam, which is the most important thing.

I looked at the loads of off the peg frames, because I couldn't justify a custom build.

I mean, we've talked about Richard how it's wonderful machines.

It would more or less triple the cost of the bike for me.

And although, you know, I'm, I'm head of a modern media empire.

I've got to watch the pennies.

So the quadifer is, I know loads of people who've got them and love them.

It's just a good straight forward touring bike with modern features.

Yeah.

You don't hear anything bad about that bike, do you?

Yeah.

I've been a modern steel bike.

They're all take well, did I?

And there's no fill-up race versions.

I mean, it is genuine.

I just, it's a utilitarian bike that will get the job done.

It's got all the brazos I need.

It can accommodate all of the various things that I'm still slightly confused about with equipment.

And that sort of thing.

But I think we can get on to talking about that.

Yeah.

Well, let's get on to the, the wheel, first of all.

And so it's a 700 C a wheeled bike.

We talked about Swiss side very generously offering to support you.

Is that happening or is that not going to work?

I'm talking to them just now, actually.

And they're fantastic to deal with.

I mean, we know JP, we've done podcasts with them.

Really nosy stuff when it comes to aerodynamics and strength of the wheel and that sort of thing.

And when I talked to you a bit initially, I was thinking about using it on the smooth roads of Europe

to get through Europe fast and then changing or something more robust.

You raised that with JP.

And he said, no, the wheel will be able to do the whole thing.

And I think he's right, you know, you look at the specs.

And it'll save what?

Which isn't just a bit going fast.

It's a bit saving energy, which is important on the long trip.

The only question which I think might be a stopper for them is I want to run a front-downable hub.

Now that front wheeler there's a thing about it all centered around aerodynamics.

And I'm not sure they won't a big lumpy thing in the middle of it.

Discussions are ongoing.

I really, really hope that you guys get to pull that off because to see that incredible Swiss side when

rim with a nice hub dynamite would be fantastic.

Yeah, I need something to charge my electronics, you know, whatever happens I'm going to record the trip,

podcast it, you know, shoot some video.

I'll need the phone just to keep people updated in the trip.

So they don't know how really it's not an option.

It's by far the best way to get all that done along with, you know,

the brilliant lighting system that we talked about the same wave one.

So yeah, I mean, the day no hub for me is it must happen.

And I really hope that we're so you can get that done because the wheels are fantastic.

And certainly for road touring, the sun dynamo seems to be an absolute no brainer.

Is that what you're going for?

Yeah, absolutely.

We've worked at them all the sun ones by far the most popular and the reason is it's kind of the best.

It's simple.

It is it is absolutely excellent.

A lot of people are doing the SP hopes the shutter precision hopes and they do seem to have a less good reputation in terms of reliability,

which is very important for touring bike.

Interestingly, the very latest dynamo hopes from Shimano, while they do steal more watts from you,

they actually give more efficiency and power at lower speeds.

So in fact, for an off road bike packing kind of touring bike,

I would probably lean towards the Shimano hub more than the sun, but for road touring,

especially fast road touring that you're doing than the sun is a no brainer.

So we've got the frame.

The wheels is ongoing.

The finishing kit will get into, but I think the most important question

that maybe isn't resolved yet is the bars.

Are you going to go for the drop bars, flat bars?

Or of course, there's all of these amazing sort of custom bars now, like the guy from Cycling about,

he's done some amazing touring bars based on his many thousands of years, thousands of miles of cycling.

It just feels like things are years sometimes, doesn't it?

I'm still touring about this, and I'm swithering based on what I'm riding at the time.

If I'm out on my stomp or the fast road bike, I think drops are perfect.

There's 100 years of cycling evolution, probably longer.

It's as perfect as you can get for a variety of hand positions or whatever.

Or then I go out and my stumpy with bar ends and think,

if I chuck some aerobars on this, it would be really comfy as well.

And actually, it's a big decision because it affects my choices with gearing.

Some of the options won't work at all well with a road bar.

We talked about how difficult it is to come up with an elegant solution for a roll-off hub in a road bar.

It affects what breaks, I can choose.

So that's going to be a vital one.

Currently, I just don't know and I need to decide soon because the frames come in soon.

I want to get it built up so that I can start living in the bike that I'm going to be using.

So what's your take on that, Sean? What would you do?

Well, I felt like I alluded to earlier.

There are quite a lot of different types of touring.

Now, just to jump sideways slightly, as you know,

I've got a gravel bike that I really love, the Ralei Mustang.

And it's quite a humble beast.

And I've ridden that off road a lot, you know, sort of through spring and summer and now into autumn.

And I've been down on the drops quite a bit with it, you know,

because the geometry of the bike is fairly short and upright anyway.

And it really does reward just dropping into the drops and cruising along.

So certainly if you put that sideways onto the fast touring,

I mean, you're basically treating this like an adventure race, aren't you, John?

You're going to have the aerobars.

You're being coached by Caroline Stewart.

And I've been listening to the pods on that, all good stuff.

So essentially, if I was doing that sort of touring,

the drop bars got a lot of attraction.

So I mean, certainly when I've done tours in the past with my family,

done tours with my dad and my son,

and I was using an old specialised tricross frame with candies.

And to be honest, on those tours, I don't think I was ever down on the drops.

I was always on the tops and the hoods with the geometry and the gearing.

And it was quite heavily laden touring.

That was very traditional touring with the tulipanias and the racks.

And when I had the cone of jakeless snake crossbikers,

I'd do it all by can use the island a few years ago.

Again, on the touring duties,

it was put into, I was never on the drops.

But the thing is for that bike, I would swap the tires over to some Conti GP 4,028 mills

and ride with my friends up there on their con Argos.

Yeah.

Suffer.

But, you know, so essentially for the type of riding you're doing,

I can't see any hindrance with the drop bar,

and I can see lots of benefits.

But for many people who are looking to live on their bike for several years,

and it's about utility,

I can really see some of the new touring specific bars,

with all sorts of bits and bobs sticking out everywhere being quite attractive.

But they're not going to be fast, essentially.

And like you say, if you're an old-school roadie, like I am and you are,

the drop bar is just your happy place, isn't it?

You just know it, you've ridden so many thousands of miles on it.

Whereas if people listen to this who are mountain bikers,

it could be quite a shock to the system,

and of course ergonomics and comfort is so important.

I mean, we have a lot of lads come to train with us who've never ridden a road bike.

So one of the level three when they're stripping and building road frames

and they go and test ride it,

they always come back going, oh, that's so strange.

And you don't want that, do you?

No, I mean, the one thing I've been...

It's got me thinking again,

this I've been watching a lot of long-distance cycling programs.

Most people probably know of this,

but we've got Amazon Prime for, you know, next day to authority,

and all that kind of thing, and making JFP so much richer.

And it comes with Amazon Video.

You know, it's just one of the things they throw in,

and there's a ton of cycling content on there.

So I was watching one just the other day,

a bit of a chap riding from the northernmost point of Norway down to Cape Town.

And a lot of these long-distance touring guys use,

you know, the Dutch touring bars,

where it looks like somebody's just got a tube-bending machine and gone mad.

And they look really comfy,

and I think I'm going to be spending most of my time in the Aero bars,

but you're right, what we should stick with is what feels like home.

My touring bikes have always had drop bars.

My own bikes got drop bars.

Flat bars for me are a bit mountain biking.

So yeah, you're probably right, I should go for the drops.

That's actually helped, thanks.

You've brought some clarity I thought into my mind,

which is good at this point.

Well, that's pretty amazing at the moment,

because I've got anything but clarity at the moment in my brain.

So just a few headlines, I've put, I jotted down there,

and I made some notes this morning.

When you're thinking about gearing for a touring bike,

what you want to think about is the range.

Okay, so we'll get more into these in a minute.

So the range, what's the maximum and minimum gearages that you want,

and we'll talk about what gearages are,

or gear millimeters in a minute.

Then it's the jumps between each gear.

So what can you tolerate in terms of sprocket to sprocket jumps,

or if it's a hub gear, just gear to gear jumps?

The chain line, which is literally how straight the chain is,

you know, in relation to the front and rear of the drive train.

Now, I know chain line is also a measurement from the middle

of the bottom bracket to the middle of the drive train,

but in this instance, we're talking chain line

as just how straight is the chain.

We also need to look at is the durability,

and the simplicity of your system,

because obviously you're touring.

You don't want something very, very fragile.

Repairability is incredibly important,

because things will go wrong.

We spoke to Steve Faib recently.

The only things that lasted on his four and a half year tour

were the Santos steel frame and the Chris King headset.

You know, he went through three roller hubs, for example.

And then the last thing, which we've just touched on,

is ergonomics, so how it all feels.

So there's lots of good articles out there, John,

and you know, I'll put a few links in the show notes

about gear range.

And gear inches, you know, being, you know,

that the Brits and the Americans still using this old imperial system,

but you can use a metric system as well.

So the Brits and the French is incredibly simple to calculate.

You just take your chain ring teeth.

So say, for example, if you've had a 52 chain ring at the front,

you divide that by the sprockets at the back,

so an 11 at the back,

and then times that by your wheel size and inches.

And if we do a nominal 27 inches for a road bike,

that gives us 122.7 inches.

Or 123 inch gear, which is,

that's on your compact road race chain set.

And like I said, on a recent podcast,

with Troy Lafay from SRAM,

that's higher than Eddie Gia, Eddie Merksever Road, for example.

So you probably don't need a modern,

even compact road grip set on your bike,

because it's unlikely you're going to go for 123 inches

as some maximum gear.

And then you've just got the lowest gear.

What's the very lowest gear that you're going to have?

So first of all,

if I was, you know, Caroline or if I was, you know,

in a shop giving you advice,

because I'm sure you've thought about this.

The first thing I do is to say,

okay, John, what sort of touring are you doing?

You know, how do you want to tour?

Are you going easy? Are you going off-road?

Do you want to go fast?

And we know that you want to go fast.

You're looking at Swiss side 60 mil wheels.

We're looking at aerobars.

We're looking at training.

So you've probably got an idea from your training so far as to the highest gear.

And then we need to look at how much luggage you're going to carry,

because it really makes a difference, guys.

You know, if you're used to riding on light,

and then you throw on all of your camping gear and et cetera,

or even if you're not camping,

if you're going on a long haul tour,

you'd be amazed at the amount of more low gears you'll need.

So have you yet worked out your very lowest and highest gear that you'll need?

Well, yes, but the variance is actually,

if we look at it in time,

it's about three weeks between heavily laden and lightweight touring.

I mean, it is a massive difference.

And the gearing that you need for both is dramatically different.

You know, if you're looking at just minimalist bikepacking

with, you know, the bags that you have now,

you probably actually don't need a much lower gear

than you would need just for long road ride.

You know, if I'm going to get away with it purely on the road,

then, you know, something like a 28 inch gear from me

would probably be low enough.

And that's what I used to have in all my old touring bikes,

because you know, you had a triple up front and a 12th to 28 in the back.

That's all you could get.

And I've got sore knees now at 58.

And the reason is we used to grind one to one up hills

with, you know, 50 pounds of luggage in the thing.

Now you can get down to ridiculously low gears.

You know, Mike, you were talking about mallet gear,

where you've got a small, you know, a small sprocket

is your smallest sprocket in the cassette.

And you're up to, what, 52th or more now for the largest sprocket?

It's absolutely insane for, you know,

for old folk like us.

I reckon if I can get just below 20 inches,

I can get up anything.

Other than thoughts, so yeah.

Yeah, so that's the kind of range that I'm thinking about.

If it's, you know, if I can't get up in that,

I'm quick of getting off and walking.

Which, to be honest, and a trip like this,

it's probably quite a nationally vocational.

It can be a bit better than, so something around 20 inches

is what I'll be happy with.

Yeah. And for anyone that really likes to get into the data side of things,

or maybe someone who is not that experienced,

because you're obviously a very experienced cyclist.

And again, I'll put this link on the show note.

It's our friend at cyclingabout.com.

He's got this great article called How to Calculate the Steepest Hill.

You can cycle up.

Yeah.

And he's got all of these metrics where you can enter in your way,

the bike, quite the gearing, and even put power data in

and search so you can work it out.

But perfect, the honest guys, get the bike loader up and see.

Yeah.

You know, is it, and you can compare and contrast the,

the great thing about the gear inches is we teach this in level two as part of theory.

And we say the reason you need to know is so you can compare and contrast different bikes

and have a single metric of reference, single point of reference.

So if you've got someone with a 20 year old mountain bike with 26 inch wheels

and three by nine gearing on,

and they're going to buy a new mountain bike with say 29 inch wheels

and a one by system, you need to work out the highest and lowest gears

that they currently use.

And then make sure that the new system will cover it.

And before road bike systems got as broad as they are now,

we used to use it a lot for road riders say,

if people were going to go off to the adapter tool,

which is one of the only sportives, you know, way back when.

And we'd work out whether to give them a wider range chainset,

a wider range cassette.

People would never do both.

And of course, now everyone's got both.

So in terms of the range, you've got a good idea of what you need.

So the next thing to look at, and this has been discussed,

a tremendous amount recently on social media with the launch of the new

Campagnolo Ekea group sets.

I don't know, you say either of me.

Yeah, I'm just doing it in the Yorkshire accent.

That's what it makes me think.

Actually, before we go on,

before we go on, we should see for, you know,

novices coming into this,

gear and cheese is simply the distance you travel for one

revolution of the clanks.

Sorry, I should have said that.

I should know.

Yeah.

So if you turn the clanks once on a 20-inch gear,

you move forward 20-inch cheese.

If it's 123-inch, you move forward 123-inch.

Yeah, exactly.

On the old penny-farthing bikes,

you just measure the circumference of the wheel,

and that was the gear and cheese.

So yeah, so essentially with a lot of the modern

super wide range cassettes, you know,

so say, for example, the new Campagnolo group set,

which we're going to talk about in great detail next week.

So I'm incredibly excited that Grom Freestone King,

whose head of Campagnolo Tech for the UK,

is actually going to take a bit of time out training dealers

in this new system to speak to us all about it.

So really excited to get into that.

But essentially with these systems,

with just one chain ring at the front,

especially a one by system,

the jumps between the sprockets at the back can be quite large.

Yeah.

So everyone's got their happy place with cadence,

which is the revs per minute on the cranks.

And if the jumps are too big between the sprockets at the back,

it can interfere with your cadence,

and you can feel like you're peddling too hard

or too soft at any one time.

So essentially, the next thing to look at then is one by at the front,

so a single chain ring, a double to two by or even,

the old school three bikers,

say for example, Shimano's dedicated tracking groups,

that's as they call touring groups,

that they're all still triples.

I think it's probably the most backward looking

of all the Shimano equipment.

So you've got all these options,

and obviously the jumps between the gears

is one of the considerations.

But the other big consideration,

as we talked about, is efficiency

and friction loss in the chain from chain line,

because the higher the angle of the chain,

which is obviously the one by systems,

is going to be considerably more.

Apparently, on a one by system,

it's definitely less efficient,

and you're going to lose anywhere between one and six watts.

And again, thank you to cycling about for that.

And again, I'll put the link to the data there.

So you're losing energy with a one by system,

but what you're gaining is simplicity and durability,

because there's less to go wrong,

but you're losing durability,

because the chain and chain ring,

actually you're going to wear out more quickly

due to the higher angles of your of the chain.

So the two by system gives you the very best chain efficiency,

and a three by system, I believe,

anyway, with the wide range cassettes we have is obsolete.

So what's your thinking there, John?

One by is not going to work for me.

I think it's a fantastic system for recreational cyclists.

It's a fantastic system for people

who are able to vary their cadence a great deal.

And this is where it doesn't work for me.

You nailed it there.

It's the jumps between the gears.

Now, she's very supportive about it,

but I bet Caroline is tailing her hair out

about trying to get me to do cadence drills,

because I'm an old tester.

You know, I'm a time trialist,

and we hear a bit the efficiency of pedaling rates

and all that kind of thing.

People pedaling it in 90 or 100 or minute,

and it eases the strain on the legs,

and puts more strain on the aerobic system,

so it's better for long distances.

I am working on it, but my cadence,

my happy place, as you talk about,

is between 75 and 80 hours a minute.

And I can not tolerate much above that very easily.

Now, that's getting better.

On Wednesday, I was doing an hour of cadence drills,

and it is getting easier for me to spin up,

and a year from now, or actually 10 months from now,

when the trip happens, that will be even easier,

because Caroline's going to keep working on it,

but I need smaller jumps between the gears than a 1-by,

would give me with the gear range I need.

So what I'm thinking is, you know,

a 2-by system with a take-off kit at the bike.

Yeah, and it really does make sense, again,

especially for the type of touring that you're doing,

which is on-road and fast-going.

You know, so for off-road bike packing,

through the Andes, or whatever,

you might want to be going for a 1-by system,

or even a hub gear system that we'll talk about.

But it certainly makes sense,

and it's quite interesting,

because you're an old tester,

when you used to watch Ulrich versus Armstrong,

you know, Ulrich would be grinding around these bigger gears

at slower speeds, which was the more old-school type of time trial in,

where Armstrong shocked the French, didn't he,

with this spinning,

who knows that a high cadence spinning,

which pretty much everyone uses nowadays,

and certainly just based on my own observations of friends and family,

is if you've got someone with a history of lung issues,

or asthma, for example,

they're much more likely to rely on their anaerobic system,

their muscles,

and they're much more likely to push a higher gear at lower cadence,

and you feel comfortable,

whereas people who, you know, haven't got that,

they're more just naturally comfortable at higher cadence,

because then it's the aerobic system.

And certainly, you know,

anyone who's listened to the podcast for a long time,

might remember our chats,

we've Misha Sakanoff, the Russian coach,

who worked with ketogenic diet,

and Biteko breathing,

and certainly I've been doing,

my Biteko breathing practice,

religiously since lockdown started,

and just to train Stika.

Exactly, yeah, there is that.

And at the moment, actually,

I've really ratcheted it up.

I'm using something called a frollov device,

which is, you know, you've got all these breather trainer devices,

it's doing similar work,

but the frollov device is quite a hard core way of doing it,

and it's really dramatic.

The effect it has on your performance,

because what Biteko does,

it uses something called the boar effect,

which is developed by one of the boar family,

not the famous geneticist Niels Bohr,

but I think it was his son that developed it,

and he won the Nobel Prize for Science for this,

and it's evidencing that the higher CO2 level,

in your blood,

the more oxygen-carrying capacity your red blood cells have.

So CO2 isn't a waste gas,

you know, this myth of deep breathing,

is that push the waste around,

is completely incorrect.

What you want to do is to relax your breathing,

and deep breathing, really,

speak to the old yogis,

deep breathing is deep in placement,

not in volume.

It's like breathing below the diaphragm

and relaxing all the smooth muscle in there.

And essentially, once you've retrained your breathing,

like that,

you slowly start building up the amount of CO2 in your blood,

you build up the amount of oxygen each cell carries,

it's like taking EPO.

If I can get EPO, I'll try that.

It seems all easy, isn't this breathing work?

Is this half an hour a day?

Is half an hour a day of exercises?

What's fascinating is you recover more quickly.

You feel like I'm spinning up hills,

like Chris, not like Chris Froome,

but I'm doing that all washing machines,

spinning low gears up crazy steep hills,

which is tremendous fun.

But also, you feel strong

because there's just more oxygen getting to the muscles,

and it's like,

like I've been getting up the gym,

it's like, you know, that strength training feeling.

So it really is tremendous.

I know it's not for everyone,

but just a little side note there,

to increase your cadence,

is to actually improve your breathing,

and improve the oxygen carrying capacity

of your blood cells.

So...

Actually, even though I often accuse you of being an old hippie,

and that might actually veer into slightly old hippie hysteratory,

you look at Graeme Abri,

he places exactly the same emphasis

and breathing technique.

You know, it's something that I think is easy to ignore

because breathing is just so natural.

You know, you just do it without thinking about it.

You know, you address every other part of your system.

Why shouldn't you address the breathing part?

Well, it's critical for your health as well.

I mean, I've said many times,

there's quite a fine line between athletic endeavor

and self-harm,

and I really despair,

especially at the moment,

there seems to be such a matter of macchisbo,

amongst men and women, actually,

into, well, I rode 100 miles,

I rode 200 miles,

I rode 600 miles on a fixy with my dog,

and there's just this idea of neverest,

I did a double-leverist.

You know, I rode the tour divide,

I yo-yoed the tour divide,

and rode back.

And it's like, at what point,

are you better off just staying at home and hurting yourself?

Because that's all you're doing.

Is you've got this beautiful healthy body,

this miracle,

and you're harming it,

you know, because you can't bear to sit in your own skin,

I think, quite often.

So, where else I'll come with that?

Oh, yeah.

So, in terms of,

on a bit of a rant there.

So, in terms of the health benefits of cycling,

you've got to stay within your limits,

so you can do this in five years,

so you can do it in ten years,

so you're not actually harming yourself.

You know, the Chinese medicine,

or the martial arts,

idea of Qi, you know,

or the Indians called it Prana,

and what's fascinating about Brutaco,

is the first thing you learn in a Brutaco class,

is to always nose breathe.

Always nose breathe.

And it's very challenging for cyclists,

because you're like,

well, when I go up a hill,

I've got to mouth breathe,

I've got to get more air in.

But the thing is,

you're not increasing the amount of oxygen

getting to your muscles with that.

All you're doing is blowing off more CO2

and then decreasing it.

And if you look at nose breathing,

the air's filtered going through,

you know,

that's how the body is supposed to work.

And what I found challenging at the start,

but life changing,

was I used my nose breathing,

as my red line.

So when I was cycling and cycling hard,

or just riding up big hills in Devon,

I'd stay nose breathing,

just like Misha said.

And if I felt the need to mouth breathe,

I would stop unrest,

which, of course,

none of us like to do.

Actually, I think that's just proof that you're on drugs,

because how often are we seeing the people seeing?

He didn't even open his mouth when he made that effort.

Well, I do.

So you have to be pure.

That's it.

We're outing, you know?

There we go.

But honestly,

it is incredible, John,

because what you find,

if you do that long enough,

and it's only,

it doesn't take that long to adapt,

especially if you're doing

pre-take exercises every morning,

you start being able to nose breathe a penny hill.

And then you go out with your friends,

you go on the club,

or not have you,

and it is a serious secret weapon.

Because you know,

just like any cyclist,

when you lose your breathing on a climb,

that's when you're gone.

Same with the time trial.

We had the time trial world yesterday.

And as soon as your breathing's gone,

you've lost it.

So I really encourage people,

if they're interested in this,

to seek out, say,

the Pateco Institute of Breathing Health

in the UK,

or other people worldwide.

But even if not,

just try nose breathing.

And if he can't nose breathe,

you're just harming yourself.

And you should pull it back.

And certainly on tour,

when you're riding for months,

this is why I bring it up.

It's an incredibly important consideration

is your whole constitution and health.

Yeah.

I mean, it's worth it.

Certainly, as I say,

we're addressing the rest of the system.

Why wouldn't you address breathing?

See there,

you've given me more food for thought.

So we get back to gearing before people,

like they've tuned into something wheels.

It's totally isn't it,

because we thought this would be,

like, a quick 20-minute podcast.

It definitely is.

I mean,

even the ones that we put out,

that are quick 20-minute ones,

are usually 60-minute ones,

are really dope.

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or even learn some new skills just for fun.

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Okay, so,

essentially then,

you decided on the two by,

and that certainly makes sense.

And just to look at the other options out there,

there are the hook gear systems,

famously the roll-off,

14-speed, you know, hook gear,

and then there's gear boxes,

like the pinion and search,

and the big, big thing with those systems,

in terms of the benefits,

is all the gears are hidden away,

so they're much less likely to be worn away

and damaged, et cetera,

by dirt and grit and everything.

And also, you've just got this single chain line,

or belt line,

if you were going to go belt drive,

and personally,

if I was doing a roll-off tour,

then I would go belt drive,

and what did it for me

was seeing a bikepacking video

of these people in Mexico,

and the people on standard derailleurs and chains,

were at a point in a muddy road,

where they couldn't pedal.

Their bikes had locked up a bit,

like if you've ever done a cyclo cross-race,

you'll recognize this,

your bike just stops.

But when you're on tour,

you haven't got someone in the picture

that you bike for you.

Whereas the chap on the belt drive roll-off,

you could just keep going.

So I think for absolute durability

and simplicity,

the belt drive roll-off is the way to go.

But of course, you will need a frame

that's designed to work with the roll-off,

which is why I really like the salsa frame

for that,

that I mentioned previously.

But essentially, the two buyers definitely

are way to go for what you're looking at,

because the big downside of these hub gears and gearboxes

is the efficiency,

and you start losing a huge amount of what's up to 14 watts.

And again,

because only the direct drive feels smooth,

all the other gears,

especially in a roll-off,

it feels cranky, doesn't it?

Yeah, it really does.

I mean, I did consider a roll-off with a belt drive.

Back when I was still, you know, in retail,

I built up a number of really interesting roll-off touring bikes,

rode them to test,

ride them before giving them to the customer.

And it is fantastically reliable.

Although, you know, Steve went through three,

I've heard tales of people who've used them for extraordinary trips

and had zero issues with them whatsoever.

Ultimately, my decision not to use the roll-off came down

to one thing, though.

And it's sound trivial,

but it's not, well, two things actually.

One is, if I do go drop bar,

there's no elegant way to put a roll-off on a drop bar.

You know, you're talking split bars

or they're on the drops or all sorts of stuff,

because it's a rotary thing that pulls, you know, two cables.

But the decision not to go roll-off mostly came down to the fact

that I hate the way they feel under your hand when you change gear.

And if you're going to change gear,

God knows how many thousands of times, over six and a half,

thousand miles,

you might as well enjoy it while you're doing it.

Yeah. Yeah.

You want something that feels good

and has got a nice range for you.

And of course, you do stay quite a lot of interesting developments.

So you've got crank sets,

which will have two gears built in.

So say, for example,

there's the very old SACS Shlump Drive,

where you just kicked the crank to lower those to change gear.

There's been a few recent iterations of people

building a gearbox into the bottom bracket

and then building a massively wide range system

with a roll-off on this two-speed at the front.

And if I Richard Hallett,

he won an award when he first started building bikes

on his touring bike with a Shimano Alpine 11-speed hub gear

at the back with a double chain ring at the front.

And it's certainly a nice look in system,

but you've got to be fairly mechanically minded

because any hub gear apart from the roll-off

is relying on the single cable tension to make the gears work.

And that can obviously on a tall stretch.

It's not so much the cable stretches.

There is nothing bad in more.

And you lose the index thing.

A bit like when you're a kid on your grifter

and it would just slip and you'd hit yourself on the top tube.

So essentially, I would say any hub gear other than the roll-off

or so the new Vinci Hub is not particularly suitable

for a big long tour.

So the big, big thing then for any system

is the reliability and repairability.

So anyone that's listening to this that wants to ride to China

or if you're an America, you know, escape down to Mexico

or up to Canada, essentially what you're looking at

is, first of all, what's your skill level?

Because say Steve Faves,

the first thing he did before cycling around the world

is he did a level two course with us.

So even if you're going to go to your local bike recycling place,

like if you're in London, you know,

join the London bike kitchen,

something like that, do some sort of maintenance course.

So you at least know how to change a chain, change a cassette,

look after your bearing systems, that kind of thing.

But obviously some systems are much more fragile than others.

And one thing I want to look at, John,

is the reliability of systems alongside the usefulness of systems

and find the perfect golden division.

So, modern mountain bike group sets,

they're not necessarily great for touring anymore.

So in the old days, you'd get Shimano XT mountain bike groups

that use it for touring.

But as they diverged,

Shimano took the old Alex and XT group sets

and made them touring specific.

So if we look even now,

Shimano Dior is 12 speed,

so 12 sprockets at the back with a very thin chain

and it's not going to be the most durable system.

It wouldn't be what I'd want to ride around the world with.

Even though the two by version,

so Shimano XT SLX and Dior,

there are two by versions,

which have wonderful gearing

and we'll talk about the range of the dose.

But I think just the fact that they're up to 12 speeds,

great for the mountain bikers with lots of lots of sprockets

and small jumps between each gear,

it's not what I'd be choosing for any sort of touring bike.

And of course, if you're going to go for drop bars,

there's a different cable pull for the drop bar shifters

than the flat bar.

So just looking at reliability,

I've got SRAM 8x1 by hydraulic disc on my gravel bike

and as much as I love SRAM for their innovation and engineering,

we're even sponsored by SRAM at cycle system to academy.

I'm not going to lose my credibility and become a yes man.

The SRAM mechanical road shifters are still pretty poor.

And I have to send my apex shifter off to SRAM service entry

in the UK for warranty after three months use,

not even that heavy use.

It's the same thing,

it's the ratchet breaking and the shifter mechanism

made out of some sort of soft cheese.

So while I'm quite happy to carry on riding that,

because I know I can just send that shifter off

to SRAM warranty every few months

or hopefully not every few months,

but it can happen.

You wouldn't take that soaring.

Which is a shame because it's a great group set.

Yeah, absolutely.

I mean SRAM loads of people love their mountain bike group sets.

Lots of people love the road group sets actually.

I mean, let's be fair.

But even though I've been out of the trade for quite a while,

I've done a lot of warranties on SRAM front shifters.

Because the tension that's needed to shift a front derailleur

isn't that much,

but it seems to be too much for the materials

that I'm using that shifter.

But also the rear.

I mean, this is a one bike group set.

So issue.

Yeah, of course.

I've never done any real ones myself.

I've done loads of front ones.

And the joke used to be that SRAM have a great one

if the department because they need it.

Yeah.

So SRAM never even in of my thoughts

when I was thinking about groups.

No, and you know,

this isn't doing down as SRAM either.

I'm just looking at a new road group set for myself,

you know, for next year.

And it's going to be access.

You know, we'll talk about the access gearing systems.

And that I must admit is partly because I just cannot.

I just cannot be bothered with doing all of the DI2 internal wiring.

You know, it just makes it a lot easier.

But I do hope.

I'm not making the wrong decision in terms of reliability.

I'm hoping that they really have got it right.

And I will say I've been having quite in depth discussions

with Mike Jenner,

who's our former instructor here at Cycle Systems.

And he's now a mechanic for Trek Sega Prado.

Yeah.

And mostly for the women's team and some for the men's team.

And essentially, I've been in discussion with Mike

because they're using this group set.

And, you know, there was a certain point when he was like,

you can press go.

This is completely reliable.

You know, it matched one of the worlds in it

and the pouring rain, for example, last year.

But he said he was filmed shooting fucking shran.

Yes, that's what I started to message Mike and said,

look, should I be looking at this?

Another reason not to expect DI2 at the moment

is, of course, a new ones on its way.

Yeah.

You know, that really bugs me a bit,

and I know actually is the lack of backward compatibility

in the DA2 systems.

Well, to be fair, I mean, I had the 797-010 speed system.

And to be fair, pretty much everything after that was compatible.

You know, it's just look at the 797-0 as a prototype

that we could write in 2010.

And it was a great system in many ways.

I love how to catch one.

But obviously, the next DI2 were expecting to be 12 speed.

Yeah.

And, you know, do you remember guys?

Shimano is a five-year product cycle.

And I think in the mountain bite world,

Shimano does sometimes have a three to four-year product cycle.

So you've got some tech journalists out there

who are mainly mountain bite guys

who are saying, oh, Shimano, new DI2 is going to come out next year

and it isn't.

It'll be 2022, because they're reliably five-year product cycles

for Shimano road.

But what I wouldn't want to do in 2021

is lay out all that money for a Shimano DI2 groupset

only for it to be out of date the next year.

So certainly, the Stram Access is the most exciting technically groupset

out there.

But we'll come on to that, because there's a whole discussion

about internal wires and hydraulic lines to be has.

If you look at the bikes at the Tour de France this year,

you will know one with a visible cable or line, were you?

Yeah.

No.

I tell you, one thing that's good to me,

we're talking about DI2 going to 12 speed

and can't buy going to 13 speed and all that kind of stuff.

If I can get a cassette that will do the range I need,

I think I'm going to do it in 10 speed.

Well, this is what I was looking at, you see.

So we'll come on to the probable groups that you're going to have in a minute.

I just wanted to mention Campagnolo, though, because, you know,

Campagnolo, they're a road racing company.

You know, they tried mounting biking, it didn't work.

But Campagnolo, it just not work.

It was hilarious.

I was bin, I like that, yeah.

But basically, Campagnolo, their customer

is the pro racer.

It's Tadeh Bhagachal.

That is the person they're designing for.

And then everyone else, okay, if you want it, here it is.

But that's what Campagnolo were designing for first and foremost.

So this new E-Kir groupset they've got out

is a massive, you know, sort of jump for them, no pun intended.

But Campagnolo group sets were so good

and so solid for many years.

People did use them touring.

So Alphan Teresa Web, that I mentioned before,

legendary mechanics in the UK,

legendary mechanical teachers in the UK.

They were my first mechanic teachers, Alphan Teresa.

They used to go touring in India every year,

which is obviously, you know, pretty rough and ready touring.

And it was then on Campagnolo record,

group sets, the 9 speed and 10 speed group sets,

which were very solid, you know, square taper bottom brackets,

really, really good ultra-shift shifters, et cetera.

So you definitely can tour on Campagnolo,

but a bit like people have said to us in the past,

even if you're road racing on Campagnolo,

you've got specific brake cables, specific gear cables.

It's all proprietary equipment.

And if you find yourself, you know,

somewhere in the stands, and you've got an issue,

you go into a bike shop, what they're going to have, a gear cable.

What's that going to be?

Which works with SRAM, but not with Campagnolo.

So I think for myself,

even though Campagnolo,

I've got a huge amount of great equipment out there

for many, many uses.

And as I say, we'll talk with Graeme Freestone King

about the E-Car and the new wheels next week.

It wouldn't be what I'd spec on a touring bike

just because of the lack of backup out there.

No, absolutely.

If I was buying a one-by-group set to use,

you know, on a less ambitious, if they're all,

a less challenging trip in terms of where you're going through,

that E-Car system actually is the first one I've seen

from Campagnolo, which even looks vaguely off-roady,

which I think looks really interesting.

The other thing is it has with all stuff campite.

It costs an arm and a leg.

You know, you're looking at 1400 quid for the group set.

And I was actually having a laugh at Graeme,

a friend from the heart-cyclery,

fantastic shop in Kerstoffen and Edinburgh,

who was going on about how it would, you know,

it looked fantastic.

It was really interesting.

He'd had a demo.

And at the same time was moaning about time trial,

but it's being too expensive.

It is really interesting.

There's a couple of quirky things about it

that I need to have a better look at.

But for a one-by-system, I think Campagnolo actually produced

something that brings something to the market.

So, you know, all good.

Won't work for me because it's one-by.

Yeah, it does look fantastic.

And I will say for anyone up around the Scottish borders,

red and grey area, well, you probably know Graeme anyway,

but Graeme actually trained at cycle systems.

He did his level two level three with us.

And Graeme is a real stalwart for Campagnolo.

He's got a huge amount of Campagnolo equipment in his shop.

He's a real expert in the mechanical side of it,

so he can look after it for you.

And he does a lot of custom build,

custom build to a camp pack as well.

So, certainly the place to go anywhere around there.

But the joke about this podcast was that we said,

we talked for six hours and agreed that you'd ride GRX.

So, the Shimano GRX, which is the gravel bike group set,

the greatest thing about it is it's a bit like cycloprost bikes were

in the past, isn't it?

Gravel bikes. It does everything.

So, the GRX system then,

because before we spoke,

I didn't know if you were going to go drop bar or flat bar.

I did some competitive.

I do know if this podcast has achieved nothing, it's not that.

I did a bit of compatibility mapping,

because as people listening know, I hope anyway,

the key thing with bike mechanics is compatibility

on the amount of millimeters of cable pulled by click of shifter,

changes between different ranges and different manufacturers.

And it even changes like we said with Shimano Tiagra 10 speed.

There's two different versions that pulled 2.3 and 2.7 mill of cable.

So, what I wanted to do was if you were going to look at GX

and go flat bar to look at which of the Shimano flat bar shift has worked with it.

One of the reasons I thought you might want to do that

is the GX drop bar group set to hydraulic disc only.

And you said GRX, you keep missing the R shield.

Sorry, GRX, not the mountain bike.

So, essentially, if you were to go for a Shimano GRX system,

but wanted to go flat bar,

one because you like the bar,

and two because you want to go for some mechanical type breaks,

a bit like Marcus Ditz does on his single speed run the world trip.

You have actually got some options.

So, GRX have an 11 speed and an 8 speed version of the group sets.

And again, just like yourself, personally speaking,

I would be going for the 10 speed just because it is more durable.

So, that's the RX 400 series.

It's going to last a lot longer, be more simple.

There's slightly bigger jumps between the gears.

As we've got a double up front, that's minimized it.

But what's really interesting there on the 10 speed system then,

you've got two different cable pulls.

So, we'll take a 6,700, 105, 5,700,

and Tiagra 4,600.

All of those road bar shifters pull 2.3 mill of cable.

So, if you were going to buy a flat bar for those,

you need to look on sidochimano.com

and look at the compatible flat bar levers,

which is the SL 4,600 or the SL R780.

These are all serial numbers stamped on the Shimano component

and is in the compatibility map.

Whereas the GRX RX 400 series requires 2.7 mill of cable pulls.

So, that requires the SL 4,700 flat bar shifter.

So, the great thing about Shimano is this compatibility map,

which is on sidochimano.com,

and it will show you in a very clear and easy way what works and what doesn't.

And if you just go wiggle and buy Shimano 10 speed or Shimano 11 speed,

you can end up in all sorts of problems.

Yeah, I'll end it for 3 quags and then get pretty aggressive with watts.

Exactly.

And if that Campagnolo, one of the ways they pissed me off recently,

let me count the ways,

but is their power shift group sets,

every single one of the 11 speed power shift group sets

as a different cable pull,

and therefore a different shift ratio at the max.

So, you've got a thinner,

a new 11 speed sensor,

and then the ultra shift systems,

and above, they've all got a different cable pull,

none of them are cross compatible.

You've just got to stick within the group set

until you get to color as record and super records.

So, you know,

because I'll often upset Grown for Eastern King on social media

because I'll bring up things I don't like about Campagnolo,

and he says, oh, well, actually, it's this, and it's this.

And I must admit, I do learn things from Grame all the time.

But I said to you.

What's the cable store?

Well, it should be.

But essentially, I said to him on social media yesterday,

look, I'm a massive Campagnolo fan,

so I'm just very vocal about it when they let,

I feel they let us down.

So essentially, what is your thinking then?

Because if you're going to go drop bar,

and you're going to go GRX,

then you've got to go hydrolytic.

What do you say?

I'm doing it.

I was thinking about this,

and then I looked at the size,

and we have a bleed kit and some fluid,

and thought, I'm really worried about nothing here.

Just take a bleed kit.

Yeah.

I mean, it's super simple, isn't it?

Yeah.

Lead a Shimano break.

Super simple.

And, you know, it's that thing where you do,

if you worry about everything, get down to the,

will they be able to fix my forks and affords,

and that's all right, Jan?

Yeah.

Well, if things have gone that badly wrong,

you're going to have to make a massive change,

change a plan anyway.

So whilst cable discs are very good,

and, you know, things like the avid,

the BB7s that Mike and I were talking about,

you know, your casino,

but actually make a really good cable disc as well.

Hydraulic discs these days just work.

And if I need to bleed it,

I'll take a bleed kit and a wee bit of fluid.

You know, that will get me there.

And as you say,

if I go for Shimano,

the chances are wherever you are in the world,

you're going to be far more likely to get that

than be able to get parts for any other system.

But if a good say Shimano Hydraulics goes wrong,

I'm just going to have to make a change of plan anyway.

And I'm a competent enough mechanic

to deal with having just, you know,

strip and bleed it in the field if I have to.

Yeah.

And it really isn't that difficult.

No.

I bit like James Wangen,

Kayleigh Fretz,

was saying on the Nerd Alert podcast recently,

when was the last time they'd ever seen

both hydraulic brakes fail on a bike?

Ever.

And it was never.

Yeah.

Absolutely never.

And I'll go with that.

You know, it's like,

unless you're going to neglect your brakes

and to never bleed them, you know,

never look after them,

you're never going to have both brakes go

and just completely fail you.

And I just agree with cable discs.

I think that absolute shit.

The whole of the machine, actually.

Yeah.

The only way to get them vaguely good

is to get them very, very best cables.

So the Jaguar Pro cable or the Yockers in the cable.

But even then high friction,

they wear out really quickly.

You know, even the TRP system,

where you've got two,

or the Yockers in the one,

where you've got two pistons been activated.

They're still awful.

I'd rather have counties than mechanical discs.

Yeah.

Absolutely any time.

No, that's a big change for me, actually.

I decided that.

I suppose a bit three weeks ago,

that hydraulic dust was just going to be fine.

Yeah.

And that there's just so much better.

And especially if you're loaded up,

they're really, really good.

And the Shimano mineral oil,

actually doesn't start to boil

until it reaches 270 degrees Celsius.

Yeah.

It's amazing.

And you know, one thing with the Campagnolo system,

disc brake system,

which is excellent,

probably the best of the road

bike disc systems in many, many ways.

But it does use Magura oil,

which boils out to 120 degrees.

Yeah.

So if I'm just sending a mountain

in Azerbaijan,

fully loaded,

dragging my brakes,

because it's a rough road,

I want that Shimano oil in there.

Yeah, absolutely.

And you know,

what I'll have is just a small bag,

which will sit somewhere in my luggage

with some speed of pads,

the bleed kit and some oil.

Yeah, and that's all you need.

That's all you need.

So that really does conclude our very long talk,

where John decides to get Shimano GRX.

And of course,

as we've said,

there is the 10 speed GRX for reliability.

And there's a lot of options within that

in terms of the cassettes and the chain ring sizes.

So like we've said,

all you need to do is to work out your highest gear

that you think you'll need,

your lowest gear that you think you'll need,

and then work out the closest ratio within that.

Yeah.

I actually, one wonder about 10 speed in Tiagra.

When I bought from a good friend,

Scott Giro Dalento on Twitter,

his demo stomp or tailor,

it came with Campagcoris and neutron wheels.

And it was great.

But I'm not a Campag person.

You know, we talked about comfortable cadences.

It's the same with Shifton.

You know, you build up decades of muscle memory.

And for me, the Shimano system is,

it's the one I'm used to,

the one I'm comfortable with.

So I took all the Campag stuff off,

sold it at a very handsome price,

and I had a plan.

And my plan was I put on a 10 speed Tiagra group set,

which I did, which might seem stupid in a frame

that retails, I think,

2,200 pounds now.

But my plan was to give myself a wee upgrade

every time I achieved, you know,

one of the medium term goals that I set for myself.

You know, I'd maybe moved to 105,

because every bike I've ever had,

because a work in the trade has been juries, you know,

because it's kind of what you do.

I've had no incentive for it to ever change

any of those Tiagra parts.

You know, they just work.

You know, there's a reason it's probably

the most widely used group set in the world.

For recreational cyclists,

it's a decent price,

and it just works.

It's been fantastic.

Yeah.

Yeah, it is.

Yeah, absolutely.

And, yeah, so I think I conclude everything

in terms of gearing with touring bikes.

I mean, there's a huge amount that we haven't looked at.

So apologies for anyone listening

that their particular interest wasn't covered.

Say, for example, we spoke with Mike Stead,

quite a lot about how to custom build

your own wide range cassettes.

And there's a great link,

a link again, I'll put on the show notes,

from bikepacking.com.

That was really nice.

Well, they use them casually.

I'll link quite a lot,

just running through the cassettes

that are new available.

Isn't it amazing?

Yeah.

There's a huge amount of cassettes

from third-party companies,

which will widen your range,

or even just the one extra sprocket,

you know, that you can put on there.

And also companies like WolfII

that will make bolt-ons for your

rear-mech hanger to essentially extend

the capacity of your current mech.

Anything like that,

I'd be slight,

any add-ons,

anything out of system,

again, be slightly wary

on a touring bike,

because there's always the potential

for it works,

but it doesn't work flawlessly.

Yeah.

And actually, over time,

it could start giving you

some reliability issues.

So, it's a bit like buying a beanie

with a light filter.

You know, to me,

if you've got more than one thing,

you know, when the light goes,

what you're going to do with the beanie,

that kind of thing.

So, personally speaking,

I'd want to go for one system.

So, belt drive roll-off,

with a frame design for that,

or Shimano GRX,

the whole system,

to work together.

Yeah.

While there's a million

permutations and offerings

and versions, which I'm sure

are all excellent,

and for more bike-packing options

are probably, you know,

much more attractive,

for what you're going to do,

which I think you are going to treat it,

like some sort of adventure race, aren't you, John?

You're going to be looking

at some sort of record here.

Well, I don't know about records,

but I certainly started thinking I'd take, you know,

a leisurely three months,

and just, you know,

take my time and ride across.

And as I've been training with Caroline,

and starting to really enjoy the bike again,

which I haven't done since, you know,

well, since I knackered my hip,

and it needed replaced,

I have my thinking has shifted towards,

well, actually,

I kind of want to do it quite quickly.

So, we've already knocked a month

off the target that I set myself.

And it is just going to be trying to go,

you know, not too fast.

Don't, you know,

I'm not going to time trial the whole thing,

but do a reasonable distance every day,

and use the lightest stuff I can get away with

in terms of, you know,

not overpacking.

I won't be taking 27 t-shirts

and five pairs of shorts

and all that kind of stuff.

So, it's, and it's a really interesting exercise.

The thing that surprised me when I first thought

about the idea around China

is I thought it would be quite an early thing, you know,

with lots of bikepacking stuff and gravel roads.

If you want, you can do most of the thing in Tarmac.

You know, you could actually get away with a racing bike

and a credit card if there was a hotel

at convenient bits all the way along.

So, I'm not going to be packing as much

as I first thought,

and I'm going to try and go a bit faster than I'd first planned.

And what is a golden age?

The amount of equipment that is available

for somebody doing anything that's vehicles challenges

is astonishing.

I mean, we're talking about bikes,

once you get into clothing, you know,

tents and shelters, sleeping mats.

It's a gear-freaks paradise.

We will have a fantastic team for outdoors

in terms of retail and what's available.

It is, it is amazing.

I mean, my light's little thing is,

I've got a Neo-Air Uber light sleeping mat

and I've bought myself a little converter

that converts it into a camp chair.

Awesome.

And there's only a few hundred grams.

So, you know, because obviously,

if you are somewhere without a comfy seat,

that's quite a big deal.

We've all sat at festivals, you know,

for sort of eight hours going,

we should have put on those little seats

for the little backrest.

And that's essentially what it converts

my sleeping mat into.

So, I'm looking forward to using that.

I'm going to go out and sleep on the moors tonight, actually.

No, it's also, I mean, genuinely,

there is product which will make your life

a lot easier, however measurable

if then you're trying to do this.

Yeah, exactly.

Most of it is called cider.

Yeah.

I think that's it.

Brilliant.

That's a wrap.

Well, thanks so much for listening guys.

As I said, I'm sure there's a huge amount.

We've not covered,

but we've already spoken for most of the weekend.

So...

Tires, actually, we need to cover tires.

Oh, yeah.

I mean, I've just been in terms of gears,

like we could do another six podcasts on gears.

But let's talk clothing,

let's talk camping equipment,

let's talk tires, you know,

and all the rest of it for sure.

And in fact, this weekend I'm going to go

is the first time I'm swapping over

to my specialized re-base,

32 mil tubeless tires,

which I'm going to ride for the winter.

Well, we run my easy week of my training cycle.

So I've got tomorrow

what kind of caroling calls are.

What's that?

Garmin back pocket rate,

where I just grew up and have fun.

Which, actually,

I've got a plan,

probably means I'm going to be breathing

too much more than I have to in the training.

As long as you're not breathing pretty much, John,

hold it.

You