PROOF The Pope HID a UFO

0:00On June 13th, 1933, in northern Italy, something falls out of the sky outside a small town called magenta. And it isn't identified as a plane. There's no engine noise, there's no smoke trail, no explanation, just this weird metallic craft sitting in a field. And within hours, fascist police allegedly seal off the area and a classified telegram reaches Italy's most evil dictator. Benito Mussolini. But then World War II happens. Mussolini falls and the Americans move into Italy and somehow the story of this object crosses past with US intelligence and the Vatican. Because according to former US intelligence officer David Grush, Pope Pius XII secretly helped America locate and recover the craft. Meaning, if Grush is telling the truth, the Vatican helped the United States recover a UFO before Roswell even happened. And magenta is only the beginning because once you start digging into the Vatican's history, you find centuries of these reports describing objects in the sky, glowing orbs, people levitating, and mysterious beings appearing from above.

1:03And buried deep behind the walls of the Vatican is one of the largest historical archives on earth. We're talking 53 miles of records spanning roughly 12 centuries. So the question isn't just data UFO crash in Italy in 1933. The real question is what does the Vatican know about what has been appearing in our skies? This is the story of the Vatican UFO files. So sit back, relax, and welcome to camp. What's up, dude? And welcome back to camp. My name is Mark Gagnon. And thank you for joining me in my tent where every single week we explore the most interesting fascinating and controversial stories from all time forever. And always that is what I do here as I find these rabbit holes, I find crazy theories, I find things that I'm personally interested in, and I go all the way off the deep end. I go all the way into all the details to figure out what is real, what is fake, and what is the gray area in between. I consider this show like the sports center of conspiracy theories.

2:05Where look, I don't believe every theory, but oh boy, I am fascinated by all of them. So today we're jumping into a fascinating one. We're looking at the UFO Vatican archive. Yes, allegedly the Vatican and, guess the Holy Roman Empire has been logging these bizarre sightings. I mean, for centuries and they've been locking them away deep in their archives, which are vast and priceless and very, very secretive. But as time has gone on, some of those files have leaked. But before we jump into that, I just want to say a few things, a couple camp announcements, some bulletins here at the campsite. I want to say thanks to you, dude, for tuning in every time you watch an episode, you click, you comment or anything like that. You tell the algorithm like, hey, these guys over at camp, they're doing a pretty good job. Mark is really trying his best and he seems like a swell guy. And it helps the show grow. It helps keep the lights on in the tent and you help keep the fire burning here at the campsite. But it also helps pave for the very expensive bounty for the man sitting to my right. It's my good pal, Christos Papadopados.

3:07What are you guys? Christos, what do you think of my shirt? I think it's a best seller right now. I have it. Go and get it. I can't bar indeed. For anyone listening, I am wearing the official Christos merchandise, which all the proceeds go to the Greeks, the Greek government, probably at this point. Your flow-way locks are kind of covering the name tag. I also want to point out that my hair is a little wet. I'm sorry. I just, I took a shower recently and it takes a long time to dry. So my bad. I showered like last night and still wet, I think. But look, that's neither here nor there because we have Vatican files to get into. So let's jump in. It's 1933. Mussolini had been in power in Italy for like over a decade. And Italy is basically a police state with control of the press. And by 1933, I mean, the sky over Europe is, I mean, it's literally a battlefield. And everyone is racing to build faster planes and bigger bombs and just more impressive technology. So there's, you know, a craft that allegedly crash landed in a pasture on a farm outside of Milan.

4:08And according to sources, the cover-up happens immediately. So let's just go through the whole story. We'll start in the field. It's early morning. All right. You walk out. The grass has some dew on it. And sitting in the dirt is something that no one has ever seen before. Something that's certainly known as ever seen in 1933. The object is described by the people that found it as what they say is largely intact. Meaning it was not, you know, destroyed. It wasn't on fire. It was this metallic, like, you know, sort of bell-shaped body with, it was like 30 feet across. And in some versions of the story, there was a band of like port holes around the rim. It pretty much like a classic sort of UFO shape. And there were no wings. There was no propeller. No fire. None of the wreckage that you would expect from a normal plane crash. It was as if like a heavy piece of metal just fell from the sky and just, you know, crash landed on Earth. Well, who were these people that discovered it? Well, according to the sources, the first people on the scene are what they call local carbonate

5:10and the fascist police. And they behave exactly like the enforcers of a police state. They block off the entire area around the site. And they tell the farmers that were, you know, around the area and just other passers-by and onlookers to get away. And they send a message up the chain of command. And that message becomes a telegram that reportedly lands in front of Benito Mussolini himself within just a few hours of the discovery. But Mussolini's first thought wasn't like, oh, this is aliens. He just goes, this is obviously a weapon. I mean, put yourself in 1933. The entire continent is at this point in like an arm's race quietly, trying to control the air. So the obvious gut level explanation is that, okay, one of our adversaries, France or Germany or, you know, Britain, they built some type of radical, experimental craft and, you know, the experiment failed and it landed on our Italian soil. So if that's what it is, Mussolini is suddenly holding on to his enemy's best kept secret and he needs to lock it down before anyone else knows that it exists.

6:13So the recovery moves really quickly. The object is described as enormously heavy. Heavy enough that crews had to bring in specialized lifting equipment and super heavy duty trucks just to move it. But before it disappears, the first job is to figure out what or whose it is. The leading guess at this time is Germany. So according to the account, German technical people are actually allowed to examine it at this time. And they come back with an answer that really flips the whole thing. The German technicians look at it and they go, this is an R's. We didn't build this and we don't know what it is. Now is it possible it was German technology and they were just denying it so that Mussolini didn't have a lead or, you know, invoke some type of aggression towards, you know, the German state? Who knows? I mean, imagine being Mussolini at that point. He's now holding this heavy, silent, allegedly, engineless metal craft and the one rival aviation program that he's most afraid of that has, at this point, the highest, most advanced technology looks at and goes, it's not us.

7:14So the object gets created and it gets tarped and driven under armed guard to one of a kind building designed to hide something that size without raising any type of questions. And that is an aircraft hanger, specifically the C.I. Marchetti facility in Verjata near the lake, Majora. This is like a massive aviation plant under the control of the Royal Italian Air Force. And they bring it there basically to study what it is. And so in order to do this Mussolini supposedly set up a secret panel of scientists called the Gabinetto RS-33, aka a special research cabinet, 1933. And the man reportedly placed at the head of one of the most, you know, secretive sort of reverse engineering projects is perhaps one of the most famous scientists alive on the planet. And his name is Gugliamo Marconi. Now, if you've ever heard the name Marconi or the Marconi awards, this is the same guy. Marconi basically invented the long-distance radio and he won a Nobel Prize in Physics in 1909. And he's genuinely an Italian national hero in the exact kind of person

8:18that you would want to hand a mysterious piece of hardware to that no one can identify. And this is where the story stops being an undercover spy operation to like a legit sci-fi movie. Because this RS-33 research team supposedly goes over the alloys and the internal structure and the propulsion and it lands on the conclusion that no one in the room wanted to even sign their name to. It just felt too preposterous for them to basically assert this fact, but they discover that in this craft there's no engine. And the metals don't even really match anything that's being manufactured anywhere. Like it's not French, it's not British, the Germans already said it's not there. They can't even really pin it anywhere on earth. And then this comes the question that you're already wondering, okay, well, what about the bodies who was driving this craft? And this point I have to be very up front with you. There are some later retellings that claim too small humanoid bodies were pulled from the craft. But all the original documentation on this story

9:18doesn't actually mention that. The bodies were added to the story a little bit later. Meanwhile, Mussolini does what everyone else does with these types of situations. He kind of buries the story. He issues a censorship order so severe that anyone caught talking about this event could face the tribunal for the defense of the state, which is basically like the fascist court that handed down prison terms and death sentences for people that they deemed were enemies. A fun little detail about this actually is that the cover story they allegedly use is actually super clever. There's an Italian magazine called Domenica del Corelli. And it ran an article about this freak lightning strike that injured five workers riding home on bicycles during a thunderstorm. And researchers behind the magenta case argue that this is effectively the public cover story. But whether those two things were actually connected, it's impossible to prove there's never an official statement from inside Mussolini's government. But if they were the real event and the official explanation were being blurred together almost immediately. And another detail on this

10:20that I think is worth mentioning, one of the alleged members of the RS-33 research team was a guy Italian. Italo Balbo, Italy's most famous aviator who led, you know, sea plane armadas across the Atlantic. Balbo actually openly hated the idea of allying with Hitler. And in 1940, his plane was shot down over Libya by Italy's own anti-aircraft guns. He was literally shot down by his own people over Libya, which is just a wild sort of side tangent connected to this whole thing. But back to the main story, I'm sure you're probably wondering how do we know any of this? Isn't this probably just like a story from a guy from a Italian farmer or something? Well, here's the honest answer as best as I can put it together. The entire 1933 magenta case rests on a stack of documents that showed up anonymously in the late 1990s. And there is an Italian UFO researcher named Roberto Penotti, the founder of Italy's National Uofological Center. And his colleague Alfredo Lassoni say that between 1996 and 2000, they received a batch of papers from a mysterious source who just

11:24called himself Mr. X, which is a hilarious name for a secret UFO guy to use. And he basically claimed that he inherited these documents from a relative involved in the secret program. And he felt that the information should be out to the public. The papers include the two 1933 telegrams basically demanding a total media blackout on the issue, just total silence. And also a memo describing this metallic disc with like port holes on the side, as well as hand drawn sketches of the craft. And of course references to RS 33. Penotti says a forensic examiner confirmed that the paper and the ink dated to the 1930s. But when this is a very important, but the full lab reports have never officially been released. No independent researcher has ever verified these documents. Italian historians have found no record of a Gabin Netzo RS 33 existing and no evidence that Marconi ever led such a program. The one document that reportedly got tested was from 1936

12:25and not the headline 1933 telegrams. So going into the rest of this, remember those two things, because the story is genuinely detailed and from the documents they are internally consistent. But it sits at the top of a pile of evidence that no one has ever actually independently checked. Just in the interest of being fully transparent, that is where the documents come from, which would make it a really cool piece of UFO folklore regardless. Except in 2023, one of the most talked about men in America actually put his name behind it under oath and that man is David Grush. Now before we get into David Grush's testimony, you have to walk through World War 2, because that's where the Vatican actually enters the story. By the early 1940s, Rome is one of the most important intelligence crossrooms on Earth. And the Vatican is right at the middle of it. And it's actually running one of the most effective diplomatic and information networks in the world. You have priests and nuns and church contacts across occupied Europe and they are feeding

13:29information back to the Pope constantly. Now the Pope at this time and through most of World War 2 was pious the 12th or by his actual birth name, Eugenio Peccelli, who took the chair in 1939. But just a few years later in 1943, everything about the war flips. Italy surrenders to the Allies and Germany responds by pouring troops into northern Italy and occupying the region. Now this causes Mussolini to be propped back up as the puppet leader of this Nazi back state in the north. And that puts the alleged magenta craft in a really terrifying position because Vagetti, where the wreckage is supposedly stored, is now in territory effectively controlled by Hitler. So the story goes like this. Pope pious the 12th does not want the craft or Marconi's research falling into the hands of the Nazis. So Marconi himself who died in 1937 was a devout Catholic. And some accounts claim that he was the one who quietly told the Pope about the discovery years earlier, essentially planting the seed with the church. So the Pope allegedly

14:32reaches out to the Americans specifically to the office of strategic services. You probably have heard of this. This is the OSS. This is the same agency that later becomes the CIA. And that takes us to a man that we've mentioned many many times on the show and his name is Alan Delos. He's the OSS station chief in Switzerland who ran real documented operations to negotiate the German surrender in Italy. His counterintelligence man on the ground in Italy at that time was named James Angleton. And if you know anything about like spy stuff or like CIA history, you probably heard of Angleton because he later became the CIA's legendary paranoid counterintelligence chief. The claim is that as Allied forces pushed north in 1944 and into 1945 as the OSS team secured the wreckage and the RS-33 files and then shipped them across the Atlantic. Myju, this is in the 1940s years before Roswell ever happened. And believers point to one suspicious detail. While the Allies bombed industrial sites all over northern Italy, this specific aviation facility where the wreckage

15:34was stored was untouched. Now for decades, that was the whole story. It was a really cool, unverifiable like fun conspiracy theory that many people within the UFO world knew about and they talked about it all the time. This you know, fantastical North Italian UFO crash that the Vatican basically was dealing with the Americans to recover and no one would confirm it was theirs. And it kind of stayed that way. But then came June 2023 when David Grush sat down for an interview with the journalist Ross Coltart on news nation and David Grush is not some random guy. He served on the government's UAP task force and worked at the National Reconnaissance Office and his public claims have been reviewed and cleared through the Pentagon's pre-publication security office. And on camera, he said this 1933 was the first recovery in Europe in magenta, Italy. They recovered a partially intact vehicle end quote. That's word for word. The Italian government, he said, moved it to a secure airbase until around 1944, 1945. And he claimed quote, the Pope

16:38back channeled that and he told the Americans what the Italians had and we as in the Americans ended up scooping it. Coltart then asked him directly whether he was saying that the Catholic Church knew about the existence of non-human intelligence and Grush's answer is fascinating. He looks at him and says certainly a few weeks later in July of 2023, Grush testified under oath before the House Oversight Committee. And in that open hearing, he confirmed the broad claims that the US had recovered non-human craft and even biological remains and that the government had been aware of this since at least the 1930s. But he said that he can't get into specific locations or cases in a public unclassified setting. And Grush isn't the only insider whose name dropped this exact case. Louis Elzon of the former head of the Pentagon's A-Tip program said back in 2021 that he'd personally seen documentation he found compelling. And he straight up said, Roswell may not have been the first event. So now you've got a piece of 1990s UFO folklore that's tracking back to the 1930s that was apparently connected with the Nazis and Mussolini

17:42during World War II that you know, Alan Dulles with the OSS scooped up. And then a cleared Pentagon whistleblower repeated this exact same claim on national television and pointed straight at the Vatican. And that raised an obvious follow-up question that a lot of people start asking if the church really does know something, what else is in those archives? Now, this is maybe the most important sort of thread in the whole episode. The magenta story, this specific case, whether it's completely true or not or somewhere in between is about one physical object. It's one crash stored in one hanger with one, maybe two transfers. But if you're only focused on whether a single, you know, craft got smuggled to America in 1945, you're kind of missing the bigger claim here. Because the deeper argument isn't that the Vatican is like hiding one random piece of metal. It's that the Vatican has been quietly cataloging encounters with non-human intelligence and been keeping it from the public. So maybe the claim is that it goes back even farther, perhaps 2000 years. Hey, guys,

18:43we're going to take a break really quick because it's summertime. And I got to tell you something. There's a specific point every summer where you realize that your entire personal style has just been like the same jacket or the same pair of shoes. And that's why I've been rocking with GLD. You see it on my neck? I wear it in every single episode. I wear it all the time. I mean, look at this. The first day I noticed when I picked it up is like the weight. It's genuinely substantial. It feels great. It has like an actual like an actual texture to it. It's awesome. And the details look even better in person. I didn't expect it. The website looks good. But when it's in my hand and around my neck, it actually is way better. I got this crucifix here. Of course, some Catholic. I got to represent Jesus Christ. And I wear it while I'm recording while I'm going out, traveling even when I'm sleeping, even when I'm showering. And it's great. I don't have to completely reinvent my wardrobe. Just one little chain elevates all my looks. GLD has chains and pendants and bracelets and watches at pretty much every price point. You can get the 18-carat gold plated piece like this, along with options in solid gold and even natural diamonds. GLD also has more than two million customers in over 50,000 five star reviews. And every piece is guaranteed

19:46for life. So whether you want something subtle or you want a piece that completely changes your outfit, GLD makes it easy to upgrade your style without having to overthink it. And of course, without having to break the bank. And great news for a limited time. If you are listening to this right now, if you are a camper, you are going to get an insane deal. When you use the code camp, C-A-M-P, you're going to get 40% off at GLD.com, 40% off with the code camp at GLD.com. And after you purchase, they're going to ask how you heard about them. Make sure you tell them that Mark increased us from the campsite sent you. Now let's get back to the show. And the person who made that argument mainstream is a scholar named Dr. Diana Walsh, Pesolka. Pesolka is not like, you know, one of these crazy UFO people. She's a proper doctor and a professor of religious studies at the University of North Carolina, Wilmington. And she spent her career studying how the Catholic Church handles the supernatural. And in her 2019 book, American Cosmic and in her 2023 follow-up encounters, she essentially puts this entire topic into a serious academic conversation. And now most importantly, she's actually gained access to the Vatican Apostolic Archive. The Archive

20:52was founded in 1612 and originally called the Vatican Seerid Archives. But in 2019, the Church officially renamed it to the Apostolic Archive because the word secret, I mean, really made everyone kind of assume the worst. Now get this. It holds an estimated 53 miles of shelves. We're not talking 53 shelves. 53 miles filled with documents going back, I mean, thousands of years, most of which no outsider has ever read. Now Pesolka's core idea is pretty simple. The vocabulary and the terminology that we use around this event and other sort of UFO events is pretty new. But this phenomena is extremely old. I mean, think about that. The word alien is modern. The term UFO was coined in the 1950s and UAP wasn't even really a thing to like the last decade. So if a farmer in like, you know, medieval Italy or like the 1200s, he watched a silent glowing metallic object go over his head. He didn't have the words to even describe what that was, but he did have some words available to him. He might say a wheel of fire, a chariot, a radiant cloud of sion from the heavens,

21:56a angel, a demon. And so Pesolka's argument is that when you strip away the religious framing and just read the physical descriptions of all these old accounts, the movement, the light, the heat, the effect on the witnesses, it feels like you're often reading a report that looks really similar to modern UFO and UAP sightings. And when you dig deeper and you don't look at the church merely as just a religious institution, it may be the oldest anomalous phenomena investigation bureau in human history. I mean, Jackville, I has written as much in his books describing throughout all of these different decades and all these different centuries, people describing the same kinds of phenomena just with different labels and kind of different cultural lenses on them. So the church, for example, when it investigates a supposed miracle for canonization, I mean, this is a pretty standard process for the church in order to become a saint in the church's eyes. You have to have two confirmed miracles and the church runs a very rigorous process for centuries. They literally appointed a devil's advocate. That's where the term comes from. And this was an official whose

22:59entire job was to argue against the miracle and try to prove that the miracle was fraudulent or a delusion or had some type of natural explanation scribes documented testimony under oath and then they crossed examined witnesses and then they demanded corroborations. So while everyone pictures, you know, medieval monks like writing down superstitions like, oh, Steve saw a demon. A lot of these records were produced by an institution actively trying to debunk these events, but yet they still concluded something physically real had occurred. So here are some really interesting examples. The first story isn't actually hidden in a vault at all. It's just in the Bible. The book of Ezekiel opens with the prophet Ezekiel exiled at the time in Babylon around 593 BC, describing something that comes down out of the sky near the river Kebar. And he writes about a great cloud with fire flashing inside of it in a glow. That's like the color of amber. And what he says, I mean, in the Bible, for living creatures moving alongside a set of wheels. And when he gets to

24:02the wheels, he says this, the appearance of the wheels and their work was like unto the color of a barrel. And their appearance and their work was as if it were a wheel in the middle of a wheel. Now again, this is not from some Vatican archive. That's from Ezekiel chapter one verse 16. And he goes on to say the wheels rims were full of eyes that the creature in the wheels moved together as one and that the whole thing lifted off the ground and traveled in any direction without turning. So for most of history, that was kind of read as a religious vision, perhaps, you know, a strange interpretation of an angel or some type of other, you know, spiritual phenomena. But in 1974, a NASA engineer named Joseph Blumrich, who was chief of systems layout branch at the Marshall Space Flight Center, he set out to disprove the idea that Ezekiel had seen some type of physical machine. But very interestingly, he came away convinced of basically the opposite and he actually published a book, the spaceships of Ezekiel reconstructing the account of a landing craft with a

25:07rotor section in wheeled legs. The part that's hardest to ignore is the omnidirectional wheel that he worked out from the text, which is basically a wheel that rolls in any direction without turning exactly like Ezekiel's description. And what's interesting is he actually patented them under the US patent system. And a really interesting fact, a version of that omnidirectional wheel is still used in real machinery to this day. So a scientist set out to disprove the biblical account of Ezekiel actually discovered a fascinating new technology patented it and then that technology is still being used all the time. So in fairness, critics have shown that Blumrich leaned on a couple of, you know, maybe loose translations to get there. And most scholars read the passage as a straight-up vision rather than some type of literal machine. But it's the pattern that the whole archive argument runs on. You have, you know, an ancient witness describing a physical, wheeled metallic object using only the words that a person of that time would have. Now, that specific one is in scripture, of course, but the stranger cases are the ones that the church investigated itself. So

26:09the first is Saint Joseph of Cupertino known as the Flying Friar. This is a real documented historical figure. You can look him up and read about it. Joseph of Cupertino was a 17th century Franciscan friar in Italy. And he's one of the most witness cases of alleged human levitation in history. One of the strangest accounts comes from 1649 when Johann Frederick Duke of Brunswick Lundberg visited Joseph in a CC. And the Duke was Lutheran at the time. If you're not familiar with like church history, obviously Joseph of Cupertino was a Catholic monk. And this guy, Johann Frederick, he's a Lutheran. He belongs to a the same sort of Christian umbrella, but a different denomination. And apparently he wanted to see this famous friar do this, you know, do this levitation thing. So during mass, the account says that Joseph suddenly cried out, rose from the ground while still kneeling, traveled several paces through the air towards the altar, and then

27:10returned. Now the next morning when this Lutheran Duke returned, he reportedly watched Joseph rise roughly a hands-width above the floor and remains suspended there for around 15 minutes while holding up the Eucharist. Now this Duke was apparently so overwhelmed that he began to cry and later returned to a CC and then converted to Catholicism. Now stories like this weren't isolated records associated with Joseph described some alleged elevations occurring for decades, sometimes in front of fellow friars or crowds or nobles or just other like senior church clergy. Eventually, all of this attention became actually an issue. And Joseph was investigated by the Inquisition and then was restricted from appearing publicly and moved between religious houses under supervision. Levitation wasn't automatically interpreted as a miracle. Clams like this could raise suspicions of fraud or some type of trickery or potentially even heresy and obviously witchcraft. Is it possible he's channeling some type of demonic force to

28:12lead people astray? But he was officially canonized in 1767 and get this today, St. Joseph of Cupertino is the patron saint of pilots, astronauts, and air travelers. Kind of funny, right? I love the church's patron saints that are connected to their life. There's a bunch that are actually super funny like that. Name a couple. I can tell you some. I was doing this with miles of the day where we were going through like there's certain ones where like they die in sort of a morbid way and then their death is sort of the way that they're remembered. So like I can't remember off the top of my head, but like a saint might dry my die of like drowning and then they become like the patron saint of like sailors. That sounds terrible. You can find a couple. When we do the wrap-up, we'll go through them. But I mean at this point like the church's own like flying fryer becomes the patron of flight. So kind of funny. And then there's a big one, Fatima, Portugal, 1917. We actually did an entire episode on this over on religion camp. So if you want to know the proper Catholic perspective on this miracle, this Marian apparition, I would definitely implore you to check that out. But if you don't

29:15know the story for months, three shepherd children, Lucia dos Santos and her cousins Francisco and Justin the Marto claimed a mysterious woman was appearing to them in a field called Cove de Iria on the 13th day of every month. So in July, Lucia reportedly asked the woman to perform a miracle so that people would believe them and stop calling them crazy. And the answer was essentially, hey, come back on October 13th and everyone will see it. So we're at spread on October 13th, 1917 somewhere around like 50,000 and 70,000 people packed into a field. And this is not like medieval times, this is in 1917, like World War One is going on. And there's photos and stuff. And you have pilgrims and skeptics and government officials and like even like Masonic newspaper reporters that don't believe any of this stuff. One of the most famous people at this event was Avalino de Amada. This was a journalist with a major Lisbon newspaper that had very anti-Catholic roots. So a lot of people were there to prove this whole thing was a farce. And the weather that day was horrible. Rain was hammering the crowd for hours as people stood there in the

30:19mud waiting for something to happen. And then it did. It literally like the miracle happened. The rain stopped. The clouds broke and thousands of people suddenly began staring at the sky. And I'll make it describe what looked like an opaque silver disk where the sun should be. It was extremely bright, but somehow you can still look at it. And it started moving. Witnesses said that it spun like a wheel and it threw off different colors and painted this like beautiful, you know, like red, blue, yellow, violet sort of, you know, cascade onto the landscape. And then the terrifying part. The disc began to plunge towards the earth. And people screamed. Some dropped their knees. Some began confessing their sins because they genuinely thought that the sun was crashing into the earth and that the world was ending. And then just as quickly as it began, it appeared to retreat back to the sky. And later witnesses even claimed that their clothes and parts of the muddy ground, which had been soaked from all the rain, became weirdly dry immediately after. Now, of course, the Catholic Church and myself as a proud

31:20Catholic, we eventually, you know, call this the miracle of the sun. But of course, UFO researchers look at the very same description and they see something completely different. Obviously a bright, shaped disc rotating different colors, weird movements, descending towards crowd, producing some type of heat. And if you strip all the religious interpretations away, I can see how people start seeing this apparition and they don't see a religious miracle story. And they start seeing a mass UAP sighting, perhaps one of the largest ever reported. Now, if you've ever heard of Chris Bledso in his story, then maybe some of this sounds familiar. Chris says that he's been visited by a woman that he calls the lady who he claims to maybe be Hathor or Isis who are ancient Egyptian goddesses. He claims that this lady may have appeared under different names throughout history and Bledso himself has obviously made the Fatima connection. And because his story isn't just about seeing UFOs, he claims to repeatedly encounter glowing orbs and strange objects in the sky. And of course, this infamous luminous female figure

32:22who delivers spiritual messages. And he believes that these things aren't separate phenomena. He believes that they are connected. So you have Fatima in 1917, which is, you know, a mysterious lady appears effectively, you know, the Virgin Mary to Catholics, but perhaps some other type of figure if you're non-religious. And there's these strange prophecies that go along with it and the woman asks the children to do specific things. And there's a real, you know, kind of like spiritual kind of under toe to the whole thing. But of course, you have this glowing object, the miracle of the sun. And everyone at the time interpreted through a Christian lens. But then you have Bledso, a century later describing a mysterious lady appearing alongside, you know, glowing orbs. Except now we're living in the age of UFOs and NASA and space travel and all that kind of stuff. And now you can kind of see like, perhaps these two things are connected. Interestingly enough, NASA actually studied Bledso's brain after they heard about this story, which is just an interesting little tidbit. But all of this raises a question, what if our lady,

33:25the Virgin mother that these children saw and the lady that Chris Bledso was describing are just two different names that humans gave to the same phenomena or a UAP that, you know, David Grush says that he saw or the flying disc that was flying around Fatima in 1917. Perhaps these things are connected. Another interesting thread here is that ISIS already has potentially some overlap with the imagery of the Virgin Mary. The question with these cases are these different things? Are they different beings or is it perhaps the same phenomenon just with a different label? Now here's where things get strange in the present day because the people digging into these old religious records aren't just theologians. Now they are aerospace scientists and defense researchers. So in Psoca's work, two figures show for Peter Lee one is Dr. Gary Nolan, an immunologist at Stanford who has publicly worked on analyzing anomalous materials and the biology of people who report UAP encounters. And the other is space industry insider that she calls by the pseudonym Tyler, whose real identity people will still argue about online all the time. And the reason

34:30serious scientists care about medieval manuscripts is basically this. Modern instruments are now recording the same things that old scribes back in the day would write down by hand. I mean, you know, radar returns, infrared signatures, objects with no visible propulsion, doing impossible maneuvers, the behavior of a craft in a modern UFO clip and behavior of something described in the 1200s, that's a religious sign in the sky, they sound very similar in a lot of uncomfortable ways. So the old records stop being folklore and in a certain way, they actually form a data set from centuries of eyewitness reports on how this phenomenon moves and how it behaves. So the Vatican, at this very moment, runs an astronomical observatory. And this is really interesting. They call it the Spakola Vaticana. And the roots of this type of study stretch back centuries. It's modern headquarters are in Castell Gandalfa, the historic papal summer residence. And many of its scientific staff is actually made up of Jesuit astronomers. If you don't know what a Jesuit is, it's basically like

35:34specific order within the Catholic Church of, you know, religious folks, many of them are priests or deacons that are committed to the specific order that are very dedicated to science and education. Now, you might think and look at this and be like, all right, well, you know, they have a telescope up on a hill in Rome somewhere, sure. But the weird part is that these telescopes aren't only in Italy. The Vatican also operates a very serious research telescope in Arizona. Yeah, it's called the Vatican Advanced Technology Telescope or the VAT. And it's located on Mount Graham and operated in partnership with the University of Arizona. So yes, the, the Pope, the Vatican at large, basically has a telescope in the American Southwest. But Mount Graham is also where one of the funniest Vatican conspiracy theories ever came from because another telescope not associated with the Vatican is on the same mountain. It's called the large binocular telescope and it used an infrared instrument that was originally called Lucifer. Yes. And it stood for large binocular telescope near

36:36infrared utility with camera and integral field unit for extra galactic research. Hey, guys, we're going to take a break really quick because I got to tell you something. If you know me, you know I'm obsessed with finding ways to cheat biology without accidentally ruining my biology. And for a long time, I associated putting a pouch in with being focused and energized and like ready to attack the day. But the thing is nicotine is a vasoconstrictor, which means it literally narrows your blood vessels and restricts oxygen delivery to your muscles. So I'm taking something because I think it's helping me when I'm working out and it's helping me lock in. Meanwhile, my blood vessels are essentially closing the gates while my muscles are begging for supplies. So you're trying to get this awesome pump with your body is like, I'm just going to elevate your blood pressure and give you some anxiety. And that's why I switched to ultra pouches. I love ultra ultra ultra is a 100% nicotine free pouch with zero nicotine and zero caffeine. It gives me that like pouch ritual that I like and also a really smooth energy and just a really locked in focus and it's so much better when I'm working out. It makes me feel great at the gym. They use new tropics and adaptogens and I usually

37:38feel it start within like a few minutes. And I throw one in before I go to the gym before a podcast. I have one in right now and it sharpens me up without making me feel like I'm like anxious or like I'm jittery. And when I'm fasting, you're trying to clean up my diet. It really helps quiet just the food noise and the cravings that I have. It's amazing. You get all the focus, you get all the energy, you still get the pouch experience. But again, there's zero nicotine and zero caffeine. So I'm not dealing with the same wired feeling or like the crash that I get from caffeine. My favorite flavor is blue raspberry. I got the watermelon right here because I already finished the blue raspberry. Ultra is the ultimate guilt free pouch delivering instant focus and mental clarity without nicotine and caffeine. And I've great news. If you are listening to this program right now when you use the code camp, you will get 15% off when you go to take ultra.com. That is take ultra.com. Use the code camp for 15% off. And after you purchase, they're going to ask where you heard about them. Tell them that Mark increased those from the campsite. Sensha, now let's get back to the show. So naturally the internet turn and they were based like there's an instrument called Lucifer on the same mountain as the Vatican telescope. What's going on? And they just flipped this to be

38:43like the Vatican as a telescope called Lucifer. It doesn't. It's a different telescope on the same mountain. I see how people get confused. But that's technically not completely accurate. Now the instrument was eventually renamed Lucy. But by that point, the conspiracy had already taken off. Of course, why would you name it Lucifer? I mean, you guys got to know like, you got to know what you're doing here, right? Also, the acronym doesn't even really work that way. Yeah, the letters don't match up. Like they really like took a stretch. Like large binocular telescope near infrared utility with camera and integral field. Like you guys, you guys did that on purpose. You're just trying to piss off the Vatican. And it worked. And maybe they got scared so they changed their name. Now, the part that actually ties into this episode isn't the name. It's the church's attitude towards extraterrestrial life. Because while governments have spent decades treating the subject like, you know, a bad ex, the Vatican astronomers have actually been pretty open about talking about the possibility of alien life. So back in 2008, father, Jose Gabriel Funez, who was then the

39:46director of the Vatican observatory, he gave an interview under the headline, the extraterrestrial is my brother. And his point was basically this, look, if God created the universe, there is no theological reason he couldn't have created other intelligent beings somewhere else in it. Funez argue that the existence of extraterrestrial intelligence wouldn't contradict Christianity at all. Because humans have no reason to place limits on what God could create or why. And he wasn't alone in this. The current Vatican observatory director, this guy, brother guy, console magno, has basically made the same point in the same distinction. The church has no evidence that aliens exist. But if science eventually proves that they do Christian theology doesn't collapse, which is pretty wild when you think about it. The Vatican isn't saying like, Hey, aliens are definitely real. We got some in the back room. They're saying, Hey, if they are real, then we have plenty of room for them. And perhaps the blood of Christ was also shed for those beings as well. Religion has been folding

40:47beings, not of this earth into its worldview for ages. I mean, you know, angels and principalities and legion and powers and signs in the sky. So institutionally, they were never going to be surprised if this comes to light one day. So let's kind of reconnect the whole thread now that we have all this data, okay, from the field to the archive. So a craft allegedly falls near magenta in 1933, Mussolini panics, he basically buries it covers it up, Marconi and allegedly a secret cabinet was sent to study it and a pope allegedly slips word to American intelligence during the war and then the wreckage vanishes potentially going, you know, to America before Roswell was every even a thing. 80 years later, a former US intelligence officer who worked on UAP issues repeats the story publicly and points directly to the Vatican like, Hey, that stuff is absolutely true. These documents that these researchers found in the 90s is absolutely valid. And then a religious studies professor goes digging through centuries of Vatican records and finds accounts of glowing orbs

41:49in aerial phenomena and these impossible religious experiences that sound really familiar when you read them through the modern UFO lens. And maybe that's the weirdest part of the whole story because the Vatican doesn't need a crashed flying saucer hidden underneath for, you know, the connection to be interesting for centuries. The church has been documenting people who see things in the sky objects from heaven wheels within wheels chariots all that kind of stuff. But then we called the miracles and, you know, then we called them apparitions and today, maybe we would call them UAPs. Now, to be clear, the Vatican itself has pushed back against the magenta story. So in 2024, an official with the Vatican archive directly rejected David Grush's claims saying he didn't know where Grush got this information and at the archive. This is what he said, the archive had no documents concerning extraterrestrial life. So officially the Vatican position is very clear. They are saying we have no secret alien files sitting in this archive. But if aliens exist, like, that's fine. But that still leaves us with this kind of strange historical pattern. You

42:52have centuries of extraordinary encounters recorded in religious language. And when you strip with the language away, it sounds like what people are talking about today all the time with UFOs. And right now, while we're making the episode, the United States is literally releasing more of its own UAP files from decades going all the way back to like, I think it's like what, like the 1940s. So maybe the biggest question isn't whether like the Vatican has UFO files. It's maybe whether we've been reading UFO files the entire time, maybe in the Bible, maybe other ancient texts, and we just didn't know what to call it. Because perhaps history and technology and faith, they aren't three distinct separate subjects. They might just be different versions of the same thing, trying to describe reality and trying to decode the same mystery. And that, my friends, is the story of the Vatican UFO files. I mean, fascinating. Let's go back through B by B really quick. So the magenta case, I'm like, my personal opinion, again, I didn't want to insert it while we're talking about it, because I just want to get the story out. But like, my opinion, I'm like, is it possible

43:56that this is just a piece of an aircraft that fell? And it's like an element of it. Is it possible? This was a diversion sent by the Germans to basically, you know, like mess with them. I mean, could you pull a picture of the the the de glauca? You remember the de glauca? This is a this is a German aircraft that they were allegedly, you know, trying to make that according to their own internal sources, like never really worked, but it's called the bell, which apparently, like, I was saying it wrong when we were doing it before I was saying, like, the the de glauca bell, but that's just the bell bell. So my bad. But the de glauca is this, it looks kind of like exactly over describing. So is it possible the Germans flew this over, dropped it in a field, the Italians scooped it up and they were like, uh-oh, something's here. The Germans are up to something. And then the Germans are like, we don't know what this is. We've never heard of this at all. And then of course, the Pope's like, hey, we have something, the US reverse engineers it, and then they discover the de glauca and then they go, okay, that's what's going on here. They're

44:56they're trying mess with them. I mean, if that's the case, I don't know why they wouldn't just come out and say it. I mean, I just gave like the perfect cover story ever, so they should absolutely run with that. So I'm like, the magenta thing, I'm not like super moved by, but I'm like, maybe there's something there. And the fact that like the humanoid part got added later is just like classic sort of like myth making and just like adding to a story. So yeah, here we have an image from Wikipedia of what allegedly the de glauca looked like. Again, it was an experimental aircraft that the Nazis were trying to make, why they were trying to make it for what purpose, who knows. But if they drop this over a farm in Italy, it describes basically exactly what's going on. So I wonder if there's some type of a, you know, some sort of a meddling going on. I mean, I'm almost positive that the Nazis did this with no stradamus, where they dropped pamphlets of fake no stradamus prophecies about how the Germans would win so that they would reduce morale in France. I think they were dropping them over France and then the French would read it and they'd be like, oh no, no, no stradamus said that the Germans are going to win and he was hoping that it was going to affect like the soldiers morale. So the Germans were dropping stuff and other

45:57people's land trying to like mess with them. Is there no little suss though that Mussolini kept it on the wraps? I mean, no, like what do you mean? What was he supposed to do? So be like, guys, we found this crazy thing. Not keep it on the wraps and then punish people who would talk about it. Of course, he's a fascist. He's an authoritarian. He's like, if you talk about something I don't want you to talk about, you're going to be in the brig, right? Okay, that's kick rocks. You know what I'm saying? That's Mussolini's whole ML. So yeah, anytime there's like some type of weird thing in the sky that falls on the ground, they're going to be like, hey, no one should talk about this. So that part I think is completely fine to me. And Mussolini's going to be like, hey, what is this reverse engineer? And maybe if nothing else, they're like, hey, they're going to waste resources trying to reverse engineer like our prank. And it doesn't have an engine in it because they never got to work. And it's also super heavy to fly around an engine if you're going to put it on the back of like a B 52. So all I mean, they didn't have B 52's on. I don't think the Nazis had this. But you get what I'm saying. I think that's what the Nazi said. No, okay. I was just a number joke. I like you. I think that, uh, yeah, the magenta thing I'm like, nah. And that's what the

46:58Vatican's like, we don't have any evidence of extraterrestrials. We do have evidence that we discovered a weird craft than we discovered what it was. That's just my take on it. But again, I don't know. Officially, the, uh, the David Grush thing, the fact that he's invoking that is also really interesting. That gives like some credibility because I don't think David Grush is like lying. I think maybe he's being given information or maybe it was shown things that again, were meant to be like a siop. I don't officially know. I've never talked to the guy. All respect to David Grush, but it's difficult to really assess without knowing more information. And then as far as like the Fatima apparition, like, yeah, if you read it through that lens, it all of a sudden is like, well, that sounds kind of UFO-y. But also in the Fatima stuff, it's like, though girls like pretty clearly described the Virgin Mary, they say like, oh, she calls herself the Virgin Mary. Now is it possible that this being, whatever this entity is, is appearing as different women and masquerading as things. Sure. Maybe trying to like change to the whatever the context is possible. Again, I don't know. No one knows really how all this works. But there is stuff with the Fatima stuff that's like, there's, you know, that Russia has to be

48:01consecrated by the Pope and like, there's all these sort of things like preventing world wars and like this like sort of end times prophecy stuff that goes along with it. You should check out the full episode that we did because it's way too much to explain here. But it's really interesting. If you read the full story of Fatima, you're like, oh, there's a lot of details here that don't fully line with the UFO narrative. But the Sun miracle, I mean, it's pretty UFO-y. And then of course, as Echel's wheel within a wheel, I mean, that's like the most UFO-y thing ever. It's like, there are these creatures. I get onto a thing. It's a wheel within a wheel. There are these giant port holes that I'm calling eyes. Like, yeah, I can see how someone mixes that up. You think the Vatican documents all these things to prove that God exists? I think the Vatican documents anything supernatural. So they're like, what why? Because they're under the submission that God is a reality that God is real. So anything that happens under God's creation, we need to document so that we can have a record of like how God is interfacing with our reality. So like, anytime there's a miracle that happens, it's like, okay, well, is this person truly connected to God in a divine

49:01way that they are canonized as a saint? We need to go through and scrutinize this stuff. And they are very clear with like, you know, like miracle sort of, you know, basically examination. Like, they're very strict with like how to classify things as miracles and things not as miracles. And like, people think like, oh, yeah, the church just, you know, they heard a guy was flying and they were like, this guy was flying. It's like, no, they go through a whole process and like, are rigorous about it. Speaking of saints. Oh, yeah. Through some of these patrons. Exactly. These are the ones I was talking about. So, Saint Sebastian, he was tied to a tree and shot with arrows by the order of the Roman emperor diocletian during the third century and eventually died to his injuries later. So he was shot with a bunch of arrows. He is the patron saint of archers. Kind of fun. It's crazy. Saint Agatha, she suffered a severe torture, including having her, I don't even know if I should say this, but a feminine organ's on her chest. They were, they were cut off. She was based on a mastectomy,

50:03but in a torturous way, which is very brutal and very, uh, unbecoming of a country or government to do this to a woman. And she died in prison. She's the patron saint of breast cancer. Kind of nice. And then St Stephen, a Christian proto martyr, perhaps the very first martyr, he was executed by being stoned to death. He's the patron saint of headaches. You would think it would be rocks marijuana. Oh, I like that. Write that down. We can maybe bring that up. I mean, there's so many of these good ones. I mean, Saint Lawrence, according to the tradition, he was martyred by being burned by grid iron, leading to his association with fire cooks and deacons. And he's the patron saint of cooks and firefighters. I actually think Saint Lawrence has a funny story. If I'm not mistaken, he's being burned alive over like a fire basically, like tied to a bar. And he says while he's being burned alive, turn me over. I'm not done on the other side. Something kind of badass, which is just hats off to him. But all that to say, it's, uh,

51:08there's certainly stuff within the Vatican archives that are, that are fascinating, compelling. In Jackville's book, Passport to Magnonia, Mentionia, I don't know how to pronounce it. I've read the whole book and I truly don't know how to pronounce the title. No one believes that. But in the book, he basically details every different you know, culture sightings of strange anomalous events, the phenomena at large that he's described where it's fairies in, you know, like Scotland or Ireland and then like, gnomes or like goblins in a different place and like all these different things. And he's like, if you just sort of strip away the cultural lens and the religious affectations that go on these things, they're all describing the same thing. There are these mischievous sort of beings that do sort of mischievous things and they're like looking around and there's levitation involved and there's lights and there's craft in the sky. He's like, they're all kind of touching on the same thing. And if his work, which I think is credible and like extremely well documented, is to be taken seriously, but I think there is perhaps some type of connection with bloodso and maybe some of

52:10these other religious miracles. I don't know, Creesos, what do you think? First of all, passport to Mugonia. Mugonia. From folklore to flying saucers. Yes, exactly. What would you learn? Anything you took away? I kind of find it fascinating that the Vatican documents all this stuff. Why is that the fascinating part to you? Religion and UFOs don't necessarily align with each other. I think the exact opposite. That's why I'm fascinated by UFOs because I'm like, I am convinced, I mean, not really convinced, but like I have an instinct or perhaps an inclination to believe that there's some type of interdimensional supernatural force connected with all of these things. And that I don't know, I don't really subscribe to like aliens coming from a different galaxy flying here on advanced craft. I'm like, I think there's an interdimensional reality thing going on where like it's spiritual and some capacity. That's my inclination. Talking to people that have been abducted, they always describe like a spiritual phenomenon. They're like, I felt amazing, I felt euphoria, I felt peace in my life. There's something happening on like an interdimensional

53:12sort of like consciousness level that's connected with this. And so to me, whether it's like you got aliens in one class, you got angels, demons in another class, you got you know, like unseen beings or something like that, you have multiverse sort of theory like parallel universes. I think maybe there's something with that, but you know, I'm still putting together my theories. What do you think? Yeah, dude, you at home right now driving your car, whatever you're doing, what is your take on this? If there's anything that I missed, please drop a comment. Let me know if there's something I completely overlooked with these cases. If you study them at length, if you are religious, maybe you're Catholic Christian or perhaps some other type of religious affiliation altogether, how does this topic, the UFO topic at large fit within your religious world? How, you know, if you're a Muslim Hindu or you know, Jewish or anything else, if all of a sudden tomorrow is like, hey, aliens are here and we have an interview with one of them, you know, on like Rogue or something, like what would be your reaction as a person of faith? I'm curious, well, your thoughts, please drop a comment below YouTube Spotify. I read all of them, even if I don't get back to all of them, someone else will and it will be productive for the conversation here at the campsite. Just

54:15be nice about it. Keep it simple. All right. I got a lot of people, just like we got a nice little community of people that are, that's very harmonious sort of enclave. So keep it that way. Now a couple more announcements before we go. I want to say if you like religious content, like we talked about, check out Religion Camp, check out the Fatima episode as well as aliens within Hindu cosmology and a few other episodes we've done over there specifically on this type of topic. You can check that out. Also, if you like historical content, great news. We have history camp. If you like deep diving on all sorts of crazy conspiracies, modern stuff, crazy mysteries, esoteric, occult. Well, this is the place for you. You can check it all out here at Camp Gagnon. We also have a secret society. That's patreon.com slash camp gagnon where you're going to get every episode of this channel plus all of our other channels completely ad free monthly zooms with me and the rest of the squad. You're going to get every, you know, you're going to get episodes that never go out to the public and you're going to find all those at patreon. And we're also doing this is very exciting. This is actually the first time I've mentioned on this program. We're going to be doing a team retreat in Joshua tree. It's truly me and the rest of the camp team. We're all going to

55:18Joshua tree. Creasow is going to be there, right? I'll see you guys there. And if you are interested in joining, there's this isn't like a full on thing, but there are a couple of rooms available. And I just want to open it up to patrons. So if you're on patreon or you're interested in learning more about it, you can go to patreon.com and just like write in the message board. Be like, yeah, what's up with this retreat in Joshua tree? It's going to be in October sometime. And I'll basically let you guys know which hotel we're at. And if you want to come through and do activities with us, we're going to go on a hike and maybe listen to some music and maybe do a sound bath or something like that. I don't even know what else we're going to get into. But we'll do a barbeque. If you just want to come hang in Joshua tree for in the area or anything like that, just head over to patreon and drop a comment. You might have to talk with a couple of my friends to do a screening to make sure you're not going to try to kidnap me. But yeah, assuming that you're everything's above board and there's no active criminal case pending against you, well, you're invited. So you can check all of that out patreon.com slash camp cagnon. Thank you guys so much for tuning in to another episode here at the campsite. Truly, it means the world you guys are here and a part

56:19of this with me. And God bless you and I will see you in the future. Peace.