Protect Your Knees and Hips: Helen Gorman on World-Record Breaststroke Longevity, EP 324

0:00I kept my head down for the first few months that I was there. And then within about three months I really started to improve and I'd gone through having cramp in both calves and both quads at the same time of my face being bright red, getting my ass kicked by kids. But once I got through that I did start to swim quite well. There's no allowances for my age. I don't need them. I managed to train okay and I enjoy it. Hello friends, welcome to the Champions Mojo podcast where we bring you interviews and topics to help you live well and swim well. Conversations especially meaningful for masters, swimmers and anyone striving to perform better in the water or in life. We're here to champion you. And now your host, Kelly Palace. Hello friends. Today's guest is a dominant force in international master swimming, Helen Gorman. Helen swims out of Wales with the City of Cardiff Club and she holds four world masters

1:00records in breaststroke in the 50 to 54 age group. She is a former NCAA division one swimmer at the University of Arkansas. Then she took a 13 year break from the pool competing in everything from water polo to cycling a mountain stage of the Tour de France. She returned to competitive swimming at age 40 and has not looked back. Today she has amassed 13 world aquatic masters titles and nine individual world records, all while training alongside teenagers who keep her on her toes. On top of that, Helen has worked with major global sporting events like the Olympics. And she hosts the popular UK master swimming podcast freestyle media with over 200 episodes under her belt as an incredible champion for our sport. I'm so excited to talk to a fellow master swimmer, podcaster and something else that we didn't

2:00even know we had in common. I was a swim coach at the University of Arkansas before Helen got there, but Helen, welcome to the show. Hi, thank you very much for having me, Kelly. I'm really looking forward to this chat and I think it's going to be good fun. Yes, we're dealing with the time zone. It's morning here. It's late afternoon there. I think we're only five hours apart. But tell us have you had a swim today or what's your day been like? Well, I am actually on holiday. I'm on the tiny little island in the Atlantic Ocean called Lanzarote, which is part of Spain. And I did get up this morning. I cycled to the gym. I did my Wednesday gym session, even though it's Monday. I'm two days ahead and a little swim down. Cycled home had a nice breakfast on the balcony and then I've been chatting to you. It's all good. Oh, wonderful, wonderful. I think one of the things that a lot of master swimmers are is they consider themselves swimmers, but then they become swimmers. They had the identity as a swimmer, whether it was all the way at Division One and international

3:05team or maybe even just a summer league swimmer. But then they get that urge to get back into it. What drew you back to swimming? How did that happen? And how did you avoid the frustration of going back? Yeah, well, I avoided it because I didn't intend to come back. I came to into master swimming in 2012 to avoid doing an Iron Man because all my friends when they got to 40 would do an Iron Man. My office was above a triathlon shop and it was so normal. It was just expected. And as a brushstroke, I have floppy knees and ankles. I didn't want to run a marathon after cycling 180 kilometers and swimming 3.8K. I couldn't think of anything worse. So I looked up the British masters records in my age group. They were pretty tough because most have been set by an Olympic silver medalist, Maddie Kelly. And I thought I'm going to have a go at that.

4:06And also I'm going to join a club to try and get my triathlon swimming back on track because I was conscious that my swimming wasn't as good as it had been. So I joined a club just temporarily and I intended to swim for six months and then go back to triathlon. So I didn't really have expectations because I didn't intend to get into it. No, I love that. I love that. So when you did get back into swimming, you are doing one of the things that I see a lot of really high level masters swimmers do, which is training with the kids as we call up, training with the kids in the US means age group kids programs. Are you training with the age group programs? And if so, what does that look like and why are you doing that? When I first went back in 2012, there was a pool that was about a mile from my house. I could cycle through the park to get there.

5:07There was a club and it was quite a diverse club. It had a master's section and it had an age group section and then there were some triathletes, there were some older guys that were into the gym and there were a bunch of kids and there were a bunch of triathletes. It was probably the most diverse swimming club I've ever been in. So there was no question about whether I was going to fit in. And I kept my head down for the first few months that I was there and then within about three months, I really started to improve and I'd gone through having cramp in both calves and both quads at the same time of my face being bright red, getting my ass kicked by kids. But once I got through that, I did start to swim quite well and yeah, I ended up having a great relationship with the coach there and I would read sessions on Swim Swam that, you know, a lot of the great American brushstrokes are done. So I'd find sets that really king had done and then suggested the coach, hey, let's have a go at this. And actually, we worked really well. It was an amazing group. And I felt really lucky to be part of it. And then when I moved, moved house to Cardiff, I just thought, well, I'm used to swim with

6:12age group kids and I'm going to carry on because I enjoy it and I've been swimming well and maybe Master's Somm is complaining a bit too much. Kids just get on with it. So yeah, that's just the norm for me now. And what does that look like? Like what is your training week like? I do five two hour sessions a week. So I swim every day. I don't do doubles. I have a couple of days off and I do two or three gym sessions a week. And I do exactly the same sessions that the kids are doing. There is a performance squad that's above the squad I'm in and the squad I train with is a mixture of 16 plus kids and then University A. Summers is a couple of Master Summers, but they don't get to come training quite as much as I do because my life is kind of organised around getting to training whereas they've got more demanding jobs than I have. So yeah, it's a decent mix. There's no allowances for my age.

7:14I don't need them. I manage to train okay and I enjoy it. Wow. So five times two hours, what is the meterage you cover in two hours? Well, I do typically between 20 and 25k a week, sometimes more. So I have this thing. I haven't really been doing it this year, but I use it to try and swim a million meters in a year, which is an average of 20k a week. And that is difficult if you then take any weeks off, which we all need to from time to time or if you take a for a meet, you're going to go below 20k. So I try and swim a million meters and I normally add it up on my Instagram and I stop doing it and people started coming up to me at me and saying, how's your million meters going? You've not posted and even spied so and so to go and do a million meters and actually we quite like hearing about it. So maybe I should post about it again, but it's a mark of consistency and I'm very much about consistency. So for example, this year I've not swam as well as previous years.

8:14It's the last year my age group. I've had a few things going on externally, kind of life things, but I still try and maintain that consistency of five sessions a week. And I absolutely love training and it's just part of my day that myself and my partner work around me being at training and you know, everything else fits in around it. So yeah, I just love to train and even if I'm not performing, I'll still try and maintain that consistency of training. And what would you say is one of your favourite breaststroke sets is? Oh gosh. Well, I grew up on a diet of doing 14, 200 breaststrokes twice a week off three minutes and that would be hell. I mean, that's what got me to the level I got to be able to swim division one NCAA national championships and to represent Great Britain at the World University Games twice, but I couldn't possibly do that now. I really like back end sets.

9:16So I'm a 200 breaststroke. So it's all about that final 50. So maybe 24, 100s as three sets of eight going out strong on freestyle on the first 50 and then trying to swim at back end 10 per one, the second 50. I really enjoy that set, but the majority of the time I'm swimming at 50s at race pace and repeated 50s at race pace. And I think that keeps you honest. You got to be realistic about what your goal pace is and it is going to change from time to time. So yeah, a diet of race pace swimming and I just love kick. If I could do kicks at every day, the coach has always come over to me and say we've written this set for you when it's a kick set because no one else likes it and I love kick. Do you kick breaststroke? Yeah. And so you were being a breaststroke and being from the UK, I, you know, I feel like Adam P.D. is kind of your most famous breaststroke or that's ever come out of the UK and on the

10:18theme of it being international. I just interviewed then Australian swimmer and she basically said when Australia freestyle is the premier stroke, they do a lot of open water and they're known for their freestyle relays and she's a freestyle or ask her if she did other strokes and she said not really. She said it's just not emphasized in Australia freestyle is the thing that's emphasized. It's not emphasized to do other strokes. Would you say in the UK that one stroke is promoted over the other or are you guys just doing all all round trading? It seems to be that you guys are pretty well rounded in the strokes. Well, let's top of Coe mentioned the Aussies and Adam P.D. because an Aussie just be Adam P.D. at the Commonwealth Games for this funny. I mean, he's been dominant, hasn't he? And I think there's a long tradition in Great Britain starting with David Wilkie. He set the world record and broke a woman in the picture of Montreal in 1976.

11:24And I interviewed his son recently actually who's trying to swim to 1511 to emulate his dad's world record to raise a ton of money for a sports aid, which is a charity that supports young kids coming through in the sport. So that was an interesting, interesting chat with him. But David Wilkie then set that up for Duncan Gojou, Adrian Morehouse, Adam P.D. And I think there's just that if you want to be a good breaststroke in Britain going under the minute on 103 if you're a guy is it's not so there's a bar that's been set very high. But if you look at the states, you guys have had Amanda Beard, Rebecca Sonny, Millie King, Livia Jacoby, Kate Douglas and Gabby Rose, who I'm very aware of what she's doing in Masters. So I don't know, we don't we don't prioritize breaststroke. Eyes from in a medley program, most of the clubs I've swam at have been medley programs. I wish I knew what the Aussies were doing because their freestyle strokes are absolutely beautiful.

12:24But I think it's a legacy thing and I think it does go back to someone like David Wilkie and it's not being the same success in female breaststroke. So I don't think you can generalize and say, well, in Britain we learn breaststroke over free style. I just think it's a legacy thing. Yeah. And that certainly does history does help shape the future. That's really great. I personally love breaststroke and I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about anything that you do outside of the pool. You said you have floppy knees and ankles. Is there anything you do outside of the pool besides like a dry land or something that really helps you strengthen your hips and your knees and your ankles? Well, first off, I don't think breaststroke is a maid. I think they're born. I think breaststroke is just naturally flexible in that direction. I think if I did a DNA test, I'd probably be part frog.

13:25So I think there is something about genetics there. The current club I'm at, we have to get to the workout 20 minutes before it starts. It's frowned upon if you were later than that. And that 20 minutes is spent by rolling, doing stretches, doing mobility, activating the body and a lot of that is hip and knees and ankles for everybody, even if they're not a breaststroke. Some of the guys will do more band work if they need to look after their shoulders. Yeah, that's 20 minutes a day. You had that up high spend five times a week. You've done an hour and a half of mobility before you've even got in the water. And they do gym work on top, which has a high percentage of mobility in it. And that's all year round. And my previous club, we didn't do stretching or anything before training because it just was a practical because we had public swimmers in the pool and we would then get in and they just didn't want us sitting around on the poolside stretching. But we would do it after the workout. And some of those workouts would finish at 9.30 pm and we would still have to do 15 minutes

14:29after every session of mobility. So I do think that is the reason that I'm able to genetics and the amount of mobility work I've done is a 54 year old woman. Wow, that is absolutely fascinating. And certainly I know you are with the kids, but a classic master's practice. Because here is people run in and straight out of their jeans and jump in the pool. There's not even an arm swing. It's just like, oh, you just kind of get in and go, but that is fascinating and certainly valuable. Obviously, I wish that I had that discipline or that group camaraderie to do it, but it just doesn't get done over here. So let's talk about a little bit of the state of the UK masters swimming in general.

15:31Yeah. Yeah. So we had a bit of a crazy event in 2016. So Britain hosted the European Championships and it was in the Olympic pool in London. And nobody had had the opportunity to swim in that pool. And suddenly it was open to everybody. Every master swimmer in Europe could come to London and swim in that pool. Well, every master in the whole of Europe decided they did want to come to London because it's an easy flight and they wanted to swim in the Olympic pool and the event sold out multiple times over. And I think it grew out lots of people that hadn't swim for years. And then they got there. We weren't allowed to do our full allocation of events. We had to choose some events to drop out of. It was kind of carnage. But it did bring a lot of people back to the sport. And then the other thing that really has brought people back was COVID because we were all out of the water for nearly nearly two years. And we all came back and realized we were able to still swim even though we had two years out. And I think all those people that had been out for many years thought, hey, everyone's

16:34been out. This is my opportunity to get in. And I think there was a lot of unfinished business for some younger master swimmers. So since 2021, there's been a huge uptake from the younger end of master swimmers wanting to compete in our national events. And they sell out in a couple of minutes. It's crazy. And our national championships is unbelievably fast and very, very competitive. But there's also lots of other fun events, inclusive events, regional events, club events. It's a really vibrant community. And yeah, I think that at the top end we've got a lot of people that are really motivated by world records and going to the world championships and the European championships. But across the board, there's people that just enjoy training and enjoy doing a few races and doing some relay. So yeah, it's pretty healthy. I don't. I have heard that there are 10,000 registered master swimmers in Britain, which is a lot

17:34smaller than the US, but you only really register if you intend to compete. So if there are 10,000 active master swimmers racing, that's a pretty big number. Yes, that is very interesting. And so are there, even though they may not be registered master swimmers, registered master swimmers, are there programs scattered throughout the country with master's coaches? And they're all under the mothership? Not really. I think there are a lot of unregistered master swimmers, maybe training in clubs that they know they don't want to compete. But the level is all volunteer led. And maybe the standard of coaching and the encouragement to get those people up to the level to want to compete isn't there? Some of the more remote parts of the country that you've got people regularly turning up and swimming in lanes together, but no desire to compete.

18:37It's not the end of the master swimming scene that I know the most about, to be honest. But there isn't, there isn't some way you can log in and you can download free programs and you can, you know, go and train and be part of a non-line community, so to speak. That doesn't exist. And maybe it's shorter, maybe that would be a development. The company bodies are really, they want you to look after people that actually are going to turn up to a competition and compete. And then it's down to the clubs to look after everybody else. That's very interesting, very interesting. And what would you say to, you know, your best advice for a master swimmer who's been off for a while and thinks they're better days are behind them or they just are afraid to come back? What would you say to them? I mean, I think you've got to start the clock again and we've all got our best times and when we were younger.

19:38And I think if you come into master swimming when you're in your 20s, maybe, or even your 30s, a little bit too much for temptation to base your performances on what your personal best times are. But if you're coming back when you're older, I think it's important to look at how people are swimming within your five year age band to only compare yourself to people that are similar to you. Don't compare yourself to your 16 year old self necessarily. But you know, I know plenty of master swimmers that are faster in their 40s than they were as teenagers and my lifetime best time for 50 brushstroke was at age 47. And if you look at someone like Joanna Corbin who's got lots of world records on backstroke, a really high performer, but she gave up swimming at 16 and was quicker at 46, 47 on a backstroke races. So I don't know, we're all different, but we're not on a gradual decline where it goes up

20:41and down and there's going to be good times within that. And times that you struggle, but I think if you realistic and look at people that are similar age to you, then remember, it's a privilege to age because I'm sure you're the same as me. I've got friends that are my age that have died and without signing too more, but it's a privilege to be in my mid fifties and still able to even set goals and to get upset that I've not done a personal best time. Yes, I love that. And I always whenever I'm nervous behind the blocks, I say, you know, what a privilege this is to just be physically able to stand up here and attempt the race. So yeah, that's so true. And you're going into a new age group next year in 2027. So the five year age groups are always motivational for everyone because you get to be the youngest person in the age group. Do you have a process of how you set goals for each year?

21:45Yeah, I think you've got to continually set goals. You know, what you want to do in your next meet, what you want to do at your end of season meet, what you want to do at the end of the year. And I've certainly got goals in terms of changing age groups and the big goal that I've not achieved is to set a world record at the world championships, which is not easy because you're not always at the bottom of the age group when you're at worlds. And it's not always necessarily set up for fast swimming. You might have jet lag, you might catch COVID like I did in Japan. There's all sorts of challenges, but I think to be able to overcome those things and set a world record at the world championships, that would probably be the biggest thing I think I could achieve in swimming. But there's lots of micro goals along the way. There's always lots of little things to achieve. So yeah, I'm always setting goals, but I don't necessarily write them down. They're in my head. I know what the world records are in the next age group and all being well. I'm capable of achieving them, although I saw that Katie Glenn in my age group set a world

22:51record on the 50 breaststroke at the US Masters. So I think that one's out of my reach. I'm not a sprinter, but she's from 34, zero long course, which is a bit, which is quicker than my, is it quicker? It's nearly on my lifetime best from when I was swimming at an elite level. So I think that would be a big ask for me, but the 100 and the 200 are achievable. Yeah, that sounds like you definitely have goals. And I always believe that it's the micro goals, the little daily goals that really hit the big goals because you have that big goal, but unless you have those little micro goals. So you got COVID at world championships in Japan. What is the biggest obstacle that you've had to overcome in your life? I don't think I had the necessarily had the best start as a swimmer. I didn't have swimming lessons. I taught myself how to swim. My parents didn't have a car. So once I got into swimming, I had to walk, I had to walk to practice.

23:54I had to walk to school. And at times I was walking 10 miles a day and swimming for four hours a day. And I think that's part of what makes me who I am now is that I believe that it's okay to be on the go for four or five, six hours a day and the human body can do that. And it will just adapt. But maybe if I hadn't, that much walking to do as a kid, maybe I would have come second at the Olympic trials instead of four. So I don't regret that because I think the reason I do masters is I feel like there's unfinished business from when I was younger. But yeah, sometimes I think maybe that was a challenge too far as a teenager to be walking that far and training that much, especially being a breaststroke because most of my training was leg based and then I was walking 10 miles a day. So yeah, that was a challenge. That is incredible. What survived miles to school and five miles back? Well, no, I would usually get a lift to morning training and I would get the bus to school.

24:57Then I would walk to my friends house to get some breakfast. I'd walk back to school. I would walk home at lunchtime to take my wet kit home, have lunch, walk back to school, walk home again in the evening and then I would get the bus into town and then walk to certain pools didn't have a bus route. So I'd walk there. And actually when I did my A levels, which is when your 16, 17, 18, my school didn't offer one of the A level subjects I wanted to do. So I had to walk to another school, which was up another big hill and down another big hill. So yeah, a lot of walking. Wow. Yeah. And maybe that kept you very fit. You just never know that might have been part of it. But certainly having the mental toughness to say, hey, the human body can do this. That's really cool. I think I was just really, really stubborn. I really wanted to swim and nothing was going to stop me. Yeah, yeah. That's beautiful. People who really love swimming, they just don't let things stop them from swimming.

25:59So I want to talk a little bit about your experience as a swimmer in the US. So you've got a scholarship to the University of Arkansas. You've swam division one. You qualified for NCAAs. It's hard to qualify for the division one NCAA championships than it is for our Olympic trials. So that's even another level of excellence for US swimmers. What were your thoughts on the collegiate swim system and swimming and just your impressions of swimming in the US for the years that you were at Arkansas? Yeah. Well, I'm primarily a long course summer. So short course yards did not really suit me. But it was something that really helped my takeovers and relays. I learned how to do proper takeovers. I think my dives slightly improved. They're not great. And my turns did definitely improve. It was the first time I ever really did any underwater. It wasn't really a thing at the time.

27:00And the 90s people weren't, you know, they actually was just before people started swimming 35 meters underwater and they had to change the rules. But prior to that and the early 90s people weren't doing it. So that was a big change. But I wanted to go predominantly because I wanted to swim internationally. And I wasn't really in the position to get some. I was kind of overlooked, I think, because I came through as a 19 year old and I hadn't been on any of the junior teams. And then I was considered to be a bit too old. And I wasn't being selected for events. And I was seeing young performers being given opportunities that I didn't get. And I just wanted to travel. I wanted to, I had geographies, but my best subjects at school. And I wanted to, my swimming to help me see the world. So when I went to the world university games in Buffalo in New York, I met one of the Arkansas coaches and he just said, Hey, why don't you come out? I'll give you a scholarship. And I went, yeah, okay. There was, I didn't look around at any of the schools. And I just went there and it felt safe.

28:01There were a few of the British summers there already. I really liked him. So I just gave it a go. And then, yeah, I loved it. I love the getting on the blocks and racing most weekends and being part of a team. And meeting new people, I just, you know, swimming, swimming, no matter where you're on the world. But I enjoyed having some different people to race and some different environments. How did you find the facilities compared to other parts of the world and even the UK? Yeah, I mean, it's mind blowing isn't it? You must know that pool at the University of Arkansas. It's a 50 meter pool with, with booms that you can set to 25 yards or 25 meters. And all of the workouts are there. But when I arrived, so we actually had some logistical challenges with pools. And I didn't take full advantage of that great pool for the first year I was there. But, you know, I had swam in Britain in Victorian pools that way you couldn't regulate the temperature or the amount of chlorine or there was cockroaches marching around trying to steal your swim kit. You know, it was really,

29:02unfortunately, when I got back from the States, they had built a new pool in my hometown, which was beautiful, but prior to that, it really was, really was a history lesson of looking at Victorian the worst places to swim. But, you know, those terrible pools produced the Rebecca Maddington, a double Olympic champion on 400 and 800 meters freestyle. So again, waters, water, pools of pools, it's, yeah, you just got on with it. But it was a treat to swim in all console. Yes, Arkansas is beautiful. And not all pools in the US are like the University of Arkansas facility. That is gorgeous. I grew up swimming in a really horrible little pool in northern Virginia that was ancient. And I think a lot of people do. But water is water. That's so true. That's a great attitude. That leads me to asking you, you've got this great podcast, which is called freestyle media. And it covers master swimming, mostly in the UK, but I know you do international people too.

30:02And I've had some US master swimmers on there as well, including you Kelly, including me. That was so fun. What have you learned from these athletes that you've talked to? What common themes or commonalities of why these people are successful? Well, I think consistency is the big one. And we talked about this earlier that you just signed through to you that they'll train the people that are breaking world masters world records are consistent. But they also love it. They absolutely love it. But I think the thing that is really inspiring is not all the world record holders are necessarily former international swimmers or division one college swimmers. They're people that their bodies have done a really good job at aging in a slow way. People that just get better and better as they get older. And I mentioned Joe earlier and Joe gave up something at 16 Joe Corbin. And she swam as a junior.

31:03Our stores are made of fine or and then gave up. But she has incredible technique. And I think a lot of people that are master's world records holders, they may not have swam to really high level, but they got brilliant technique. They've got a foundation from when they were younger. And they get excited. They get the bug for masters and they apply themselves and they do everything right. Maybe they do them ability. They do their training, but they've got this underlying benefit, which is fantastic technique. So another example would be Amanda Heath, who's about to go into the 70 to 74 age group sets world records on brushstroke very regularly. But she's unbelievably consistent despite having had a very high level job. She's only recently retired. But always manages to fit her training and then her technique is consistent. And she pulls a lot of good water and kicks a lot of good water. And I think, you know, unless something happens to her in terms of injury or illness and, you know, it not, I don't wish that on anybody at all.

32:06Then there'll be people will keep performing and they'll keep performing as the age. Tell us about freestyle media and how that came about and a little bit about the transition because when I look you up on Apple Podcast, it says freestyle media. And then it has Joe Malone and then it has hosted by Helen Gorman, which is you. So you're the host of freestyle media. Joe's name is on it. But tell us a little bit about how that came about and give us a brief on that. Yeah. Well, Joe started it. He was between jobs. So he worked in PR, got into master swimming and he was changing jobs and his new job was only going to be two days a week. And so he got a bit of career advice and someone said to him, you should do something, do a passion project, something you absolutely love. And so he set up the, it was called the master swimming podcast of region, originally. He set that up and he did a hundred episodes and he interviewed some really great people.

33:08But he got to a hundred and by then he was working full time. He's now got a baby and he said he felt he had, it had run his course for him. He didn't feel like he could do any more with it. So he basically just closed it down on the hundredth episode and said, right, I'm not doing it anymore. And then it's been fun and and that's it. So I got in contact with him and said, I love the podcast. I love the whole idea of promoting master swimmers of telling the stories behind the record because everyone's got a story right. Everyone has got a reason why they swim and a reason why they're successful. There's so much more to it than how they train or what reps they hold in training. So and there's just not enough other media that are telling me stories. And I thought it was a real shame that that wasn't going to continue. And I was in a similar situation. I was kind of between contracts. I've always worked between myself, but I've always worked for myself. And one of my big contracts have come to an end. So I had the time. So I thought, well, why not? So I've now got to a hundred episodes as well, which is great.

34:11And I've got some help. I've got somebody, Julie Howe, who's going to do one episode a month for us just to take the pressure off because doing a weekly podcast is quite a lot of work. But I just love it. And it's wonderful to have the opportunity to speak to swimmers. And I like to have a laugh. And I joke with them and enjoy the conversation. And I just love hearing that other people enjoy hearing the conversations that we record. So yeah, I'm going to carry on doing it. And then thank you for being a guest as well. And yeah, predominantly UK based, but I do interview a few people from around the world. If I know them, if I've met them on my travels or I've seen them on a training camp or whatever, and bite them on the show. Yeah, that is wonderful, Helen. I just love the commonalities that we have as master swimmers and podcasters and Arkansas razor backs. So the last question. Is there anything that I have not asked you that you would like to share with our listeners?

35:14I can't think of anything else I want to say, although then I think it's time to go for an ice cream on the beach. You are on vacation in Spain, so you are so entitled to that. Well, thank you so much for being on Champions Mojo. And I can't wait to see you on a pool deck somewhere. We will definitely have to have a big hug for that. Yeah, I think you need to check out Budapest. And I think whatever you've heard about how world championships are organized, I think the Hungarians love swimming more than any other nation. And I think they'll do a great job with it. So check it out and maybe I'll see you next year in Budapest. That sounds like a good plan. Thanks, Helen. Thank you so much. Thank you for listening to the Champions Mojo podcast. Would you consider leaving us a five star review on Apple? That's like getting a best time for us. Kelly and our team would be so grateful. See you next week for another Boost of Mojo.