Pure Victory Podcast - 282. When Both Spouses Have a Story: Finding Hope After Sexual Brokenness With RJ and Melissa Whaley

0:00Welcome to the Peer Victory Podcast. Pull a pod tips to help you win at sex, conquer porn, and friend purpose in staying free forever. Well, warm hello from Brad and Kristen Peer Victory Podcast. Thanks again for checking back in with us today. Yeah. And today we are enjoying another great guest and that's why I'm excited because hey, when we have a guest on, it's more than just us talking, more than just me talking, get to learn something. So we're double benefit. That's right. And we are having on today a great couple. Actually, we just met them recently. And you know when you meet those couples, you're like, we would be friends with these guys. Like they just just click and you just have a great conversation. They're wonderful. Just talk to them like a half an hour. That's right. Like literally. And we're so blessed to have them on

1:02today. RJ and Melissa Waley. And they are a couple who has been married for 18 years. Just recently celebrated their eight teeth anniversary. So great for them. And they've six kids. So how you found the time to be on with us today is incredible. That's a miracle. Yeah, we'll put a pillow on. That's right. They're also home school parents. That's right. They live in Southern California. So no jealousy on our parts. Our weather is never going to match up to that. But that's okay. Yeah. It's okay. They're also professional coaches. They have an incredible ministry called the trail blazing lights. And so without further ado, Melissa and RJ, thank you for coming on. Thank you for having us. Yes, we're so excited to be on with you guys. Like every time we've talked since we met, it's just been so much fun. Yeah. And it's true. We have shared some good laughs. We like taking our work done. So this is fun. And let's get into it because I have for listeners who have never heard of you, never have a call of text of who you are. Maybe share a little bit of your story and lead into why you do what you do. Why does it matter to you to engage in the line of ministry work that you do?

2:06Yeah. I mean, I think it's so important to share a story that was actually like one of the biggest takeaways that I got when we were at the Sills Conference together in this past year. It's just the most powerful thing you have is your story. And so, um, yeah, where do you want to begin? Then I guess we'll start at the beginning. Yeah, that's a great point to begin. It's where it's where God starts. Yes, that's right. Right. And so we met in college, prepping for a mission strip to go to Mongolia. Yes, we did. And it was pretty quick. Like, we met and it wasn't like we were like any other environment, but not really interested in each other for a couple of months, but then once we kind of started to move that direction, I think we both distinctly remember a night where we were standing outside of her dorm, dorm room, and I gave her a hug good night, and I remember walking, laying, going, I'm going to marry her. We weren't dating. We weren't dating. Oh,

3:08that it just clicked in my head and I was like, that's it. And from there on, our relationship started like a month or so after that, we're still very fuzzy on the timeline because everything feels like it took a long time. Right. Right. Especially when you're young. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, like we dated for the rest of college. We got 19 and 20 at this point. Yeah. And so we dated for the rest of college. We got married the weekend after we graduated. Yeah. So it was, it was your classic college romance. We were at a Christian university studying ministry and teaching, but both of us, we had this past and really a present that was a hidden part of our story. And it wasn't as hidden between the two of us, but both of us had struggled with pornography, both as, you know, adolescence and into college. And so it was this kind of just, you know, talk about thorn in the side

4:11that Paul talks about. Like it was that thorn in our side. And we thought, okay, we can, we can overcome this. Like we're going to get married. We're going to, you know, take the world by storm. We're going to go in a ministry together. Right. I figure this is totally right. And we had all the heart and desire to kind of be pure in our marriage and, you know, honor God. And that is not at all how that worked out. As many of us have learned, marriage does not fix sexual brokenness. Okay, very that. Yeah, events is very true. Yeah. Just just just a little little truth there. So yeah, we got married and got pregnant a couple months into marriage. And that presented a lot of challenges. Yeah, because of the timing of when we got married, the economy crashed. And I couldn't find a job. I ended up subbing at a local school district, which was okay, but it's not consistent. Yeah, then we ended up moving in with my parents and living in my old bedroom

5:15as early as expecting a big day. Yeah, just all the things you look forward to in adult. Living in your childhood home room. Yeah, yeah, I'm pregnant. Yeah. And I think with that, like with our oldest being born and being newlyweds and living with my in laws in her old bedroom, yeah, the kind of combination of those in conjunction with kind of new levels of access. With mobile technology and those kind of things. Yeah, this was right when smartphones and touch is all the comedy thing, right? We had computers, you know, most of our growing up years, and but yeah, there was just a new level, like instead of access. It was easier. Like, oh, yeah, it's not the family computer. Yeah, the living room, like that everyone could see what you're doing. Right. Yeah. And so what that did, that combination of things, I think, created both the pre-existing

6:16like pain. Yeah. Exasperate. Exasperated that and then led into me kind of going from an addiction that was there, but relatively low level to causing that to explode. Right. And that pretty much continued for with varying degrees of knowledge on her part. Like it was never like completely hidden. Yeah, that's one of the themes that, you know, in a lot of people's stories and be like, oh, I had no idea that I was looking at porn. But then I found out, you know, the X number of years or months, it wasn't just like secret secret. Right. Between us, I knew it was a struggle of his, but I also grew up in an environment that pornography was normalized. Right. You know, I was exposed at a very young age to pornography inadvertently. And so it was, it was part of kind of my brain training was like, well, that's just what guys do. And it's, you know, as long as

7:17it's not a real person, it's not that bad. Oh, all those kind of unhealthy things. Yeah. Yeah. And so that continued, you know, varying degrees of degrees of whether it was, you know, severity until we actually moved back from her parents' property down to Southern California, so I could attend grad school. Okay. That led to a couple of changes. One, we got pregnant with a third child. Grad school was relatively heavy. And I was living in a time house, like a shack of a house with a growing family. Oh, yeah. Oh, wow. And so then we moved again after about a year and a half of that. But that time in grad school, I was, I was pursuing, I was at a seminary. And so that was kind of working on me, the spiritual formation piece. I remember moving to where we are now. And this is before I had it owned an addiction before I had addressed an addiction or anything

8:18like that. I got to a point where I just, I kind of crumpled before God was kind of like, all I know is everything I do is wrong. This is not what I want, but I don't know how to get out. And I remember sitting down over the course of, you know, the next year, reading my Bible, covered, covered, covered, and reading Wilde the Tart by John Aldrin, just because I was like, I don't know where else to go. Both of which were really helpful. And it was kind of at the end of that year, the Melissa kind of, I think she listened to a podcast. Yeah. So I, you know, we were, our marriage was really beginning to struggle. Like it wasn't, I think we're out about, we were married about 10, 11 years in this point. So, you know, we had always kind of been okay. We've been floating, nothing drastic. But at this point, like the conflict was just consistent. And there was a lot of hurt and pain going on. And I, I, you know, was taking the blame on myself and thinking, like, I'm doing something wrong. And again, like my level of struggle had, you know, gone up and down,

9:24but I listened to some podcast. And this idea of like, oh, you know, pornography addiction, like it's an addiction. And it can, you know, infiltrate your marriage. And that could be what's causing problems in your intimacy and all these things, I'll be like, what? They've ever heard that. Oh my gosh. Yeah. So it just kind of, I call my epiphany. Yeah. Like I didn't have discovery day. I didn't have disclosure. Like he came to me and said, Hey, yeah, this is actually what's going on. It was just like this epiphany where God said, this has to be cut out. Right. Your marriage. And that, that is why I went to Argy. He said, like, Hey, I, like, you're struggling really bad right now. I think we need to address this. And that's really what kind of changed the whole trajectory of our marriage. Yeah. And I exploded. Was she asked that? Oh, yeah. He was not a warm and welcoming to the accusation that

10:24got a pornography addiction. Right. Because at the time, I was doing the very best I could show up, the best I knew how for her and for Argyz. You're like, I'm trying. Yeah. And I remember saying something to the effect of, I don't know how I could show up for you in the kids without this, which sounds just like an addict. Right. But I had no, like no awareness of what that sounded like or what that felt like. But shortly thereafter, I kind of recognized that like, I think was what God had been doing beforehand. Regardless of whether or not I felt that was true. I know that what I was doing wasn't working. It's so I happened to attend a like a single day men's retreat that our church was putting on. Someone got up there and put up like the promo video for conqueror series inside of anyone is interesting. There's 50 some odd guys there. I contacted him like later on that day or later on that week and was like, I'm in. He was kind of like, well, no one else said anything. Well, wait till there's a group. And come to fight out. There's

11:26be no one else. No problem. No one else sought out how the church leadership who had a let him do this thing. Basically, we're kind of telling him he couldn't do it. And I just kept bugging him week after week for like three months until he finds like, don't tell anyone. Come over to my house. We'll do it together. And so that started my recovery. And I started getting, you know, it still was a slow climb to sobriety. I started starting recovery. And at which point, Melissa was very much like, this is a you problem. Yeah. So you get this fixed. We'll be all good. Right. So, you know, we mentioned we both had struggled at point. So it wasn't like maybe a lot of stories you've heard where it's like, okay, well, you know, she discovers that her husband is looking important. And she steps it was like, I, I realized that he at that particular point in time, like his struggle was having the deepest impact on our relationship. But I was also coming to terms

12:29with what that meant for me. And I think what held me back from saying something way earlier in our relationship was this thought of how could I say anything when I struggled to. Right. Like how can I call him out when I've done the same thing? And so yeah, it was, it was a process, but I was kind of like, all right, you do your recovery and that should fix us, right? So, Archie, when she came to you and said that were you, did you ever, you know, kind of fight back and defend it? Like, well, you struggled with this too. What do you do? I think that I was probably more in the dark about her struggle than she was about mine. Okay. I do that. It was much more of a past tense thing. I knew that there were occasions where that was the case, but I did not know much of the context in its current format. My experience with recovery at that point was all kind of like, you have a problem and we're going to keep beating you

13:30over ahead with the fact that you have a problem. Right. And anything that is contrary to that isn't a problem because you're the problem. And so, it wasn't until much later that I got to any place where I was, it was like, wait a second, I think this is having ramifications for me because there just wasn't a wear. Yeah. We kind of followed like a very traditional recovery path in the beginning of like, well, the man's the attic, the woman's the betrayed spouse. We got to do all the things. And, you know, we did eventually I got into a support group and every group as well as a betrayed spouse, learned a lot of things. We did a, you know, proper full disclosure with disclosure guides. We did individual coaching. We got couples coaching. We joined a couples program. So like we were doing a lot of good recovery work. And that is what kind of brought us to a point of like, oh wow,

14:33look what God's done with our story. Even though, you know, we're not done yet, but and that some of our mentors and coaches were like, hey, we think you guys should become coaches and like, other couples. And we went to what you said, uh, yeah, we're kind of like, oh, me. Oh, no. So, yeah, there was a little bit of like hesitation, but then open this to explore, like, well, maybe we'll learn about like what coaching is. Maybe we'll look at coach training. Maybe we'll find a Christian coaching school because we definitely don't want to go to a, we weren't interested in a secular kind of more woo-woo-ee life coaching training. And every time God kind of like put things in our in front of our face, like, well, there's this school. Well, there's this thing. Well, you have time for this. Well, this fits perfectly into your schedule. We're like, okay, God. He's like, no excuses. Yeah. So, so that's how God kind of pulled us into coaching and why we felt really called to

15:37start the trailblazing life and start encouraging other couples. I think what was so powerful for us throughout our whole journey is that God kept bringing this idea of hope that there is hope that, and that you can have better than what you had before to recovery. Like that recovery doesn't mean you just go back to being okay. It's like, no, you actually make your marriage is better than it you ever thought it could be. And so we want to give that hope. But also kind of for us, you know, you asked about like, well, how do we come up with the trailblazing life and what's that? Yeah. Well, we, so we're definitely outdoorsy people. We live in Southern California, but we actually don't live near the beach. We live near the mountains in Southern California. So we have this beautiful mountain right behind us and we're in a valley. And so we really love hiking outdoors and just this idea of, you know, when you're in the backcountry, you are not always following well

16:41worn paths. Right. And a lot of times you really have to basically blaze your own trail. And so this idea that we, you know, we believe in this, the concept of breaking generational curses, right? Like we are breaking patterns. And part of that is part of trailblazing is that we are blazing new trails for our marriage. And like not following the well worn paths of some of the unhealthy patterns of our families and also blazing trails for our kids to follow, say, wow, look at what mom and dad did. They didn't stay in the unhealthy, unhelpful patterns. Like they chose a different way. So yeah. Yeah. And the name we picked trailblazing before we moved into this field. And but it was that same idea of just like, we don't, we don't want to make the same mistakes. And we don't want to live in the same paths that other than as let us do where we're at now. And we don't want to leave that as a legacy for our kids. So right. How do we change that? That's so good. Right. Yeah. No, that that name is, uh, it's, it's, it's a great

17:44sort of word picture too, right? Like a, you're blazing trail. A trail. New trail. Yeah. I think that's so great. Yeah. For you as a couple that are serving together in this area, uh, you mentioned journey. And yeah, we're all in a journey. Oh, it's all, we're all have the degrees of health and growth that we're always until the day that we breathe there last. Um, and so for you as a couple, because you shared your story. Thank you for doing that. Thank you. Um, what point in your story that you start to realize, you know what? We can now move from just being wounded to also becoming one who can help heal in the sense of God working through you. Um, because sometimes the, you know, shame can kind of bogus down. And we don't feel like we have that in us. Um, so I'm curious, what was the point? And what was a point for you as a couple to realize, you know what? We want to like God does so many things in our lives. And as a couple, we've grown and connected. Now we want to turn around and help others. Like, what was that point for you and what was the process? Yeah. I think the turning point for me individually was I was in a group with guys who have been in that same group for 10 or more years

18:49who started the same way that I was started with. My name is so and so, my primary forms of acting out are and it was helpful in the getting honest piece. But what I saw over and over again was this like limiting belief system. I am this and I've demonstrated over over a decade. I will always be this. And I'm like, I feel like Jesus is more powerful than anything I think I can, can or should be. Amen. And so I don't want to limit myself and just say like, I'm always going to be this. I want to acknowledge the reality the example I like to give is I tore my ACL. I'm always going to have to attend to the fact that I tore my ACL. But I shouldn't then use that as an excuse to continue to hobble around. Right. Repair it. Do the work and just attend to it. And when it starts to act up, treat it with care and kindness. But and so that was a major shift for me.

19:51Yeah. I think for me, it was, it was kind of this, not really. I went to school for ministry. I've always known that like God had something for us. And even, you know, even when we work to create in our marriage, we always felt this calling of like, God's going to do something for us in marriages. Because we always thought marriage is awesome. Even when we suck at it sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. There's something really powerful about marriage. So as, as we got further along in our healing journey and in our different groups that we were in both individual support groups and then couples support groups like we were starting to become the people that spoke into the the new fresh peoples stories and lives and, you know, mentoring and just encouraging, we saw how naturally that came to us. Right. And so that I think combined with our mentors kind of call it saying, Hey, we think you'd be really good at this kind of turned our

20:57minds to like, yeah, actually, I think this could be the thing. Like, this is, this is what, as bad as it sounds, right? Nobody wants to be in this story. But like, this is the thing God has been preparing us for. Like, this is the story he needed us to go through to be able to use it for his glory. Yeah. And every other attempt at working together we've had was terrible. Oh, yeah. We've been like, we haven't tried volunteering together in different ministries. We had tried starting businesses and it always crashed and burned because we weren't in a good healthy space to do that. So yeah, just it kind of, it wasn't like this instant like, oh my gosh, this is a thing. It kind of was this gradual like, oh, yeah, and now we're kind of leading in these groups. And oh, now we're facilitating more. And it's like, oh, yeah, this is the thing. God was very gentle. Hey, just slowly giving it to you. Not too much. Yeah, just a little bit. So you don't freak out. Yeah.

22:04Very much so. Yeah. So you guys have a very obviously unique perspective. I mean, not only you're doing this industry, turning around to help others, you lived it. And the way that you guys journeyed through this too is unique because like you mentioned, D-Day, disclosure day, a lot of couples go through something like that. You also mentioned often a lot of help is given in the sense of understanding it's the husband that's the perpetrator and the wife that's that betrayed. And so you guys both went through a scenario story, a situation where you both had this in your life. You both had to come to terms with that and betrayal look different for both. Yeah, you both experienced the reason that so talk us through that because you have a very unique kind of perspective in that regard. Yeah, like I said before, like I kind of got hit with that repeated take up. You're the betrayer. You're responsible. And I think I followed along for a lot of it. I did recognize very clearly that regardless of what was happening or had happened on her side, I was responsible for me.

23:07Right. You're on your hand. Yeah. And I knew and I've always wanted like I remember telling my second grade teacher when they asked me what do you want to be when you grow up. I said I want to be a husband and a father. And she looked at me like I was crazy. So that was not a question for me and I just knew I wasn't doing that role well. And so when I when I was finally like came to terms of the fact that my addiction was probably what was really part of the problem. I was able to lean into that imperfectly and start working in that direction. But it didn't take very long, especially once we started like towards the end of prepping my disclosure. That I started to recognize there was stuff in me that was that was being stirred up by what I did know about her story. And I brought that up in my sessions and sometimes that was kind of like don't worry about that. This is about you. And that that was not ultimately very helpful for me. But I understand it.

24:11I understand it from this side now where it's just like you're not ready for that. Yeah. But it felt very insolidating at the time. And so basically went through the whole process, did the full disclosure, started the recovery like couples recovery process with you know, couple sessions and stuff like that. But it did eventually move to a place where I'm kind of like there are some things that are nagging me here. And some of them are inappropriately like I'm in my pain and I want to be justified. And some of them were legitimate underlying things where I'm like I'm being honest. I want you to be honest. Yeah. And so that kind of put us in a weird conundrum where my disclosure to her was fully supported. But because of maybe the timing of wind and our resources and stuff like that, hers to me was not. Yeah. So I did do a version of a disclosure to RJ. And part of that was I mean, it was really powerful when he did a full disclosure

25:11and we were fully supported and we definitely encouraged being fully supported. But it was really impactful to me that he was so open and vulnerable. And that really I think opened my heart to being a place of like, wow, there are places that I have not been open and honest and vulnerable. And and if we are choosing to move forward together with honesty as our foundation, I have to step up to I can't I can't only just sit here and be the wounded betrayed partner. I have to actually say I have I played a part in this as well. You know, we share responsibility and the impacts of what we've done are different. Right. Right. So, you know, I I did my best at that point. I didn't probably I didn't have good support partially because I wasn't even being honest with my support people of what was going on in me. So, you know, that was lessons I needed to learn. But we we did

26:14that in a worse like I kind of gave him a version of a full disclosure more of like things I hadn't already revealed to him. Like these are the things that are really hidden like brokenness in my past and things are done. And it was rough because yeah, we were just like completely navigating uncharted waters. I mean, even within kind of professionals in this industry, we we ask people like, hey, how have you handled couples like this? They're like, we don't know. We don't want to do. So, you are both in to at first, RJ is like, so you Melissa, you were in the betrayal help and support and RJ is like, okay, I'm the I'm not like done. No one getting help. And then when you did this, he disclosed, then you felt called to disclose. Am I hearing this correctly? Yeah. Then from there, did that change your because you're coming out of from like the trade spouse help? Right, Melissa? And now I said, yeah, wait a minute. Now I have to, so did you have to change like your

27:19support groups or how did how did you navigate like switching roles now, you guys? It was confusing. Yeah, it would be. I mean, I went like, there are some really great ministries that are specifically for women who go with pornography and I kind of went and asked questions of like, hey, is anyone else navigating this? We're like your husband's a pornography addict, but you also have struggled with porn. And so I'm like, yeah, you know, like I just did portrayal in beyond and they did like, you know, kind of pure desire or whatever. And I'm like, okay, but I think what we've learned at this stage going through, you know, multiple different curriculums and different kinds of groups is that I didn't exit necessary the betrayed partner space and go into a female addiction curriculum or support group, but what I was learning both through him, like and the things that he was learning and just what I was learning about myself and just my

28:20general healing helped me dig more into my story. And then as there were later on, I actually did go through kind of a curriculum workbook that was geared more towards women who struggled. And that was helpful for me to just unpack my story more. But I think as we we moved into a lot more couples focused recovery work and that was more about our story and understanding, you know, our family of origin and understanding, you know, just each of our individual sexual histories and how that impact our relationship. A lot of that work helped me unpack my own struggles and get to a place kind of honestly, I think it took me a lot longer to break through denial that it was a problem than it did RJ when I brought it to him. Yeah, and I think that one, there's very few resources for men who have been betrayed. Right. In general, yeah, it's like it's a I hear about

29:21things kind of on the periphery and half the time by the time I have like the thought and the ability to go look for it, it's gone. Right. I think that's changing, but it's a definition of need. But in addition to that, like, I think like one of the major shifts for me is I remember we were doing abstracts training, which is, you know, one of the things, I'm sure some of your listeners are familiar with that. And they had a little like, I want to say half hour hour long section on a four-day training on the treatment. And I remember ending that day and resonating in a way that actually created some some challenges for us. And I remember sitting and talking about it and her basically saying, I feel myself wanted to get defensive, but I recognize that your pain actually matters. And I would say that was a major tipping point because up until that point, so we're working basically

30:24working in this field. Right. And to the testament of just continuing growth. Right. Of like, it is an ever-main process. And although her disclosure to me initially was somewhat incomplete, the process of leaning in and doing the work of becoming safer than our relationship has allowed us to kind of revisit some of those things. Yes. And for me to get whatever clarity I needed that I didn't get you beginning. And so in some ways, we've done the formal process the way you're supposed to and the one you're not supposed to do. The informal process. And we've seen the benefits and detriment of both sides. Right. Along with seeing kind of the differences between how a man betraying the relationship impacts the relationship and how a woman betraying the relationship impacts the relationship. So yeah. Lots of different facets that I don't think either of us were looking into or are typically not even acknowledged in the space. Yeah. You mentioned RJ,

31:29the difference between a betrayed wife and a betrayed husband. What do you guys see in your, even if you just speak of your own relationship? And what does that look like? How is it different if somebody's wondering and listening? Yeah. What I've seen both in myself and with the few clients that I've worked with is that the types of things that are important are different. Yeah. The way in which it impacts like what we as men feel is different. And the way in which we respond to it is different. Very rarely do you get a man collapse into grief. And at least immediately, oftentimes there's a lot of anger and a lot of shame. I've had some clients that I've worked with that they come to me as an addict. Everything we do, we do as an addict. And then months in, I hear a betrayal, that they experience when they were younger, maybe

32:36in their relationship, maybe not. And when I'm able to reflect like, hold on, what happened there? And they are able to kind of step in as like, wait, I was betrayed. It shifts a lot in them because now they're able to access empathy for their spouse a lot more easily. But secondarily, like it actually often gets to the root of some of the addiction themselves, like their own addictive tendencies. And so it just, it looks different because we respond to anger more often, we tend to care less about some things than women do. And more, and again, all that's on the spectrum because of course, humans are humans, but yeah. And so I think that's really the big shift is that these little, these little things about what is important to me. And the fact that we are consistently told as addicts, you are the problem. Right. And whatever you experienced in

33:37betrayal of you doesn't really count because you're the problem, which is true, just not entirely. Yeah, that's how the devil works. Yeah, well, when we get into this power struggle of who's who's the bloodstablin. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I think that's where like a lot of people get tripped up is like, well, your addiction was worse or you did this or you lied for longer. It's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, let's just heal it back and like step, step into humility. That's the hardest thing, right? To get to that place of humility to say, you both really mess this up. We both are sinners. Yeah, we're both screwed up. Yeah. And it's like, we are not going to fix this in our own power. Yeah. Right. That is, I think, so, so important. Like, say, like it took me a while to break through the denial. Like, oh, I'm like, I've created as many problems as RJ, it just looks different.

34:42You know, I very much felt the weight of being a betrayed spouse in the season that we were in, right? Because of course, there had been like, I knew it was a struggle, but again, it's that like, I didn't know the depth. I didn't know the full extent. No, like until there was a lot that I had to process through and then rebuild enough safety to go, okay, now I see you as a safe person, again, because you've demonstrated, you know, good recovery, sobriety, honesty, all these things, I feel like I can be more open with you and I can share these things and I'm not going to get, you know, blasted with rage and because yeah, there were definitely a lot of times where he was trying to express like, well, I feel betrayed too. And I was like, well, you just suck it up and deal. You're like so much worse, so, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and that's normal. I mean, that's what we get most

35:42of the time as male addicts is sucking up and deal. Like you created the problem. You're kind of like, okay, what do I do with this? But oftentimes it is the invalidation of our pain, whatever it is, oftentimes even in early childhood, they let us to seek comfort in things that ultimately cause more pain to us and to others. It's so weird, hey? Yeah, every time. Until we learn to fix it and change it. Now question for you guys, this is a journey. You've said that many times. We're not all arrived. So you guys who live in your life, you have lots of, lots of things going on. Hey, you both have, have said struggles, you both have been betrayed, that kind of thing. What happens when either of you gets triggered? And you have that, that, you know, there are also template, whatever you want to say. How do you guys navigate that now with each other moving forward in this health that you've experienced? Yeah, I think one of the most powerful tools that we were

36:45given in our recovery journey is some, is around emotional regulation. So that the tools that we learned that were not specific to addiction and recovery, it was just like, hey, here's the reality of the pattern that your brain is following, which leads to unhealthy coping, like pornography and all this, but it can also lead to other forms of unhealthy coping, like getting angry and yelling or shutting down and withdrawing and wanting to go, doom scroll, social media, right? Like all the things. So when, for us, learning how to just grow and awareness of our triggers and recognize them, and then we have a process, so it's called the four steps, but it's a, like, it gives us structure of like, okay, we're not usually, I mean, I'll speak for myself. I'm not usually triggered in,

37:47like, you know, it's how a rouse will template, like, triggered to act out, you know, as a, as a female addict, I'm not like visually triggered the same way, maybe as he would be, but like, there are things that will bring it up and like, my biggest triggers loneliness, right? Like, I feel lonely. So if I can recognize, like, I'm feeling lonely and I know that my old pattern is to go to this for comfort, I can then basically preach the truth to myself, I was like, I don't have to go to that for comfort. I have a husband right here, and it's probably what I, I don't actually even need physical comfort. I just need to remind myself I'm not alone and connect with him even emotionally, and that just like, suit, like, regulates my emotions, right? Pots me back in peace, in connection mode, and so, but we have established honesty in our relationship,

38:49and vulnerability at this stage, right? We've been doing this a while, so we're not in early stages of recovery as a couple that I can come to him and like, I'm feeling lonely, and, you know, and, and one, it's my responsibility to care and tend to my emotions, but then I can be honest, it's like, I just want to spend time with you. I'm feeling really lonely. We've had a lot of work today, or I've been with them, running the kids all around town, so their lessons and their classes all day long, and I'm barely seeing you, like, can we just sit and hold hands for a minute? Same thing, it's like, I'm responsible for my triggers. Yeah, yeah, he's not responsible for them, and so that is a regulating those, and oftentimes, an external trigger in my experience, so if I see something right here, something that triggers that arousal template piece, the trigger itself is like the hook, and I'm looking for what's the line that's attaching into the pole, right? So what is going on in me that's making that appealing, right? Because

39:53if I'm in a good spot, right? If we're emotionally close and we're having fun, that's not a trigger for me. It might be an acknowledgement, like, I can see that, and I can acknowledge the beauty or the desire, but it doesn't go anywhere. It's just there, and I'm like, okay, it has no way to pull me in. And so, and that's where the emotional regulation comes in, because that's just me acknowledging, there's an emotional preset that right now is off, it's tying me to the pole. Right? Right. If I don't want the date, because everything is satisfied in me, you can't catch me. And so, I'm a fisherman, so that's why I use that. No, I love it. It's good. It's really good. But it really is like, we only, fish only bite when they're hungry. Yeah. Or defending a nest. Those are the only two options. That's why I use nets. We want to catch a lot of fish. Yeah. Right. And so, it's like, I have to figure out what, what am I hungry for? Yeah.

40:57And then, deal with that emotional regulation. And then there are places and times where there are opportunities to express a legitimate desire that's not based on the trigger. By where it's like, hey, today we just had a really, you know, like, I'm not, I'm not triggered. I'm actually expressing legitimate, healthy desire for sexual intimacy with my wife that's built on emotional and relational intimacy that comes from foreign, but I have to, I have to weed out that all the negative stuff. Yeah. Before and yeah, you guys put that in such a great way. No, I'm, I'm interested in this too for you as a couple. And you can put your cold chats on, ministers hats on this too, even on your story. But yeah, we know forgiveness is such an important piece. And, but there's also this active reconciliation. And that takes trust. And one of the things is, yes, we forgive, but what will trust? That's trust takes time. And, and so for, for you guys, if you're coaching a couple, even using your own story, how do we rebuild trust? What has been broken? And what is the energy

42:01that goes into that? What does it actually look like, ten and jibbly for couples to start moving in that, active reconciliation, rebuilding that? Yeah. I think it starts with honesty. Right? Like, am I being honest with me? And am I being honest with her? Yeah. And making sure that your definition of honesty actually aligns. Right? Because I'm like, well, I didn't lie. It's like, okay, well, yeah, because you didn't lie. Does it mean you're being transparent that you're, you know, putting, putting everything out on the table, so to speak? So, yeah, I think there is that, that like having that foundation of honesty, and then trust is built through consistency of action and words and actions aligning. And that can get really messy, you know, and those early stages of couples recovery, it's rough, right? Because you're learning, you know, I always relate it to like, you're like a toddler learning

43:02to walk again, right? Like, you're gonna wobble, you're gonna fall down, but it's like, do you get back up? Right? So for us, it was a lot of consistency of our words and our actions matching. And that mindset shift of, it's not Argy's job to make me feel safe or make me feel good about myself. Like, I have to take responsibility for my emotions first and then be honest when his actions or words are not supporting that. Right. Now, and saying like, he has to, you know, we can't be each other's crutches in the earlier stages of recovery. That's why you have support groups, you have accountability people, you know, because if I'm trying to like, on him be my support person, when I'm, you know, melting down, it's just not very messy, yeah. That's what I do. Yeah.

44:02And it's gonna hit all my, my pain points. Of course. Because if she's triggered by something and she comes at me in her pain saying, well, with blame, right? You did this and you're doing that and I'm gonna hear that as you failed. You're not good enough. This is an unsafe environment. So then what am I gonna do? Either shut down myself, go into performance mode or get defensive. And that's, I mean, there's a whole host of other ones, but those are probably the ones I'm gonna go to, which are just gonna reach trigger her. But if she's responsible for her well-being, and I'm responsible for for being a safe person, not making her feel safe, then it creates this opportunity where that I can help facilitate by creating safe space for her to find the safety herself. And that's just me showing up reliably. So I'm gonna take responsibility for my own emotions. I'm gonna regulate them and I'm gonna show it for you because I love you. But I can't, I can

45:04lead you to water, but I can't make a drink. I'm not gonna take responsibility for that. And that is really, really hard. Yeah. Because what I want to do is fix it. Of course. And I have to let go of my ability to fix it. I can only create a conducive environment and that's the best I can do. Yeah. And I think there's so much about, you know, like preaching, preaching the truth in reality to yourself in those moments because I know on the betrayed partner side, like that mindset, when I get into that mindset, and I like, I go backwards, right? I'm like, oh, you know, he's gonna lie. He's gonna deceive me again. Like, there's something wrong. It's like, that's the story. I'm telling myself. And when I, it's like, pause. Okay, wait, take a step back. Note the reality now is, yeah, that thing he did was not helpful, but he's built up all of this reliability that didn't exist previously. And if I ignore all of that, I'm gonna always go back to like, I'm retraumatizing

46:09myself. I'm getting back to, you know, and that's where couples will get stuck. Because the biggest struggle is getting past, like, okay, now, like, we're feeling safe again, but can I actually trust? Like, that's the hardest kind of leap to go from feeling like, okay, things are safe, but like, do I actually, am I like brave enough? Because there's a lot of bravery in, I'm gonna trust them again. Yeah, one, on that vein, because I know that often we can get so hyper focused on just stopping looking at porn. And then that's the thing we shoot for, a sobriety aspect. But then there's also, you talk about rebuilding something here. There's a building that needs to be happened. And so how do we know as a couple that, let's see, we're on the right track, that we're building, what are some metrics we can use? Because often it's like, we just stop, and then we don't know what to do from there. And there's all this pain still. I don't trust you, and you know, like, you know, so there's all that. So how do you, what are some things that you

47:12would coach a couple like the markers, I should say, that we're on the right path? Yeah, well, I think there is so much benefit in actually naming the positive things that are happening. Like, when you are, you get to play through, you can actually like, honor your spouse for something good they've done, right? Like, one book we read, it like talks about, you call them glimmers, right? Like, and we've got triggers and we've got a glimmer. So the glimmers are those positive things, those truth reinforcers, those reminders of, hey, like look, he's going to his groups, he's doing his check-ins, or she, right? They're doing the things they're showing up, but also are they actually, are you engaging each other relationally? Because where we can get stuck is where we stay in our lanes of like, well, this is my recovery journey, and this is your recovery journey, and we don't come back to going to say, okay, what is our relational recovery look like? Because that's a separate

48:16thing. Like, our relationship has different needs than us individually. And, you know, we, we can't forget that. And then we, we'd like get so far down and we're like, I don't even know who this person is anymore, but I feel great about myself. So yeah, being able to actually name the positive. And, and I think there's something also really important about setting specific goals, and like checking in on that. Like, okay, and I'm not talking about big lofty goals, but like, what was really helpful to us in, especially in early recovery, was setting specific achievable goals. Like, okay, our goal for the next month is we're going to do check-ins every night, like a structured check-in every single night. And then like score, like how does score sheet be like, right, how did we do? And then on those nights that we missed it, what was going on? And get curious, rather than like, we failed. We'd get 100%. You know, and so setting those like

49:21very specific measurable short-term, you know, like a month, three months, kind of goals helps you build momentum. Because then you feel like, okay, we're getting somewhere. Otherwise, like, you get rolling, and then it's just like, are we ever going to be better? Like, still fighting? Yeah. Still get triggered. Like, this is hopeless. Remember, you get to that place of hopeless, but when you look at those glimmers and those moments of like, you know, we'll look at the progress, you know, I, we talk a lot when we're working with couples of like, in the Old Testament, God had the Israelites build Ebeneasers all over the place. Like, you walk all over the desert, narrow rock piles. Yeah. And you know why? Because it was a actual visual cue of like, oh, there's God's faithfulness. That reminds me of when God showed up, even when I doubted him. And I think that is important in our relational recovery to have those Ebeneasers, those reminders. And

50:23they can be physical. Like, we have physical things like, you know, even photos or verses or songs or things that remind us of a period, a time in our relationship where it's like, oh, look at that, that gross, like the almost that gross moment. And we didn't do the thing the way we used to. I think that actually gets that way. I think one of the things that's a key indicator is can I engage in difficult conversations differently than I did before? Yeah. Different is better than is better than reverting to the old way. Yeah, the same. Yeah. Exactly. So I distinctly remember this may even before we recovery. But I remember thinking, because again, I was the thought was, I can't do anything right. And whenever we were getting a fight, I was shut down and like physically turn away from her. And I would, I remember thinking, I'm still shutting down. That's non-negotiable. I'm shutting down. But I'm going to lay facing her.

51:24Just wanting to different. Yeah. You know, and doing that. And so if you're, I have yet to meet an addict who doesn't have what's to all somewhere in there or avoid it, some version of that, in the way that they respond. But were you able to stay in the conversation? And not blow up or not shut down. Even if you didn't do well. Right? And just like looking for those markers of, I'm willing to engage differently than I was before. Yeah. There's a term that we were introduced to that we love that is use a lot in technology space, which is return to operational. And so, RTO. RTO. And so this idea that, okay, is our return to operational increasing versus decreasing. So like, you know, we used to get in fights and it would just be like a week of barely engaging or just bickering every day because we just couldn't let go. And then it would shrink down to a couple days. And then it was like a day. And then the fact that most of our fights,

52:30if we're in conflict, it's like a couple hours at the most, we're like, well, dang, that RTO has improved. So it's just like, that's a win. Yeah. Celebrate the small wins because it's not the huge wins that build momentum. It's a lot of little wins over time that build that snowball effect that you're actually going to be like, wow, we're doing so much better. Yeah. That's so, so good to remember those, those glimmers for sure. Because your brain, we all as humans, we always are looking for problems. You go negative pretty quick. You go with negative. And so then if we can just no stop and think, okay, what is going well? What can I praise? I mean, I'm guilty of this too, right? You're going, yeah, it's just like I'm human, right? That's right. Yeah, that's right. With my own kids. You guys, you know, all the time, like, actually, I have really awesome kids. I mean, just talk about, you know, I'm so bad. Backed up in our brain, there's no neutral. Like every

53:35interaction is either positive or it's negative and anything that feels neutral is negative. It's true. That the intentionality that takes some energy on our part versus just that just sliding in the place and working. Like we have to actually choose that. So, um, yeah, she decided something. Yes. Yeah. And I think that's what can be really empowering. Totally. Well, that's individuals and couples is that realization of I have choice. Like, and it's not just like, you know, oh, I'm empowered. Like it's God has given us agency. Like he is not a grand puppet master controlling our every thought and move. Like he's given us this power to choose and we get to choose. Are we going to choose light or are we going to choose darkness? And that's is so many parts of our life. Choose this day. Who you will serve? Yeah. Right. Renew your mind. It's like over and over again. It's the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Out of the heart. The mouth speaks like repeated over and over again. It's like you're making

54:36a choice. Yeah. Oh, totally. It's great. I love it. Um, we could chat forever with you guys. We love this. I want to give you the final word, though, for any couple that's listening or your individual, what's a message that you would send? Um, I've just hope wherever they're at. Because some couples might be listening and they feel like there's no tomorrow. There's other this that others that are maybe on their journey right now and they're seeing some breakthrough. And there's all down that spectrum. So just share something briefly of what you would state from your story and ministry. Uh, and even what you feel God leading you to just share it for everybody listening. Yeah. I think for me, especially for guys is that your pain matters. And you don't have to be slaved to whatever it is your life to. And what allows that is for you choosing differently. Not perfectly, but consistently, a little bit more different. And that when you change,

55:37you're changed the dynamic of the relationship. Yeah. And something that was hopeless yesterday or even today doesn't have to be hopeless tomorrow because you can't change your spouse, you can't change all your relationships, but you can change how you show up to them. And when you do that, other people change. Yeah. Because you're not feeding into the same system that they're used to. And so they have to accommodate that. And so if you show up well or better, they're likely to change as well. And they make them angry in the beginning. Because they want that negative confirmation. Yeah, they're used to it. Yeah. They're used to it. But ultimately, you will disable them from engaging in the same way. They have to change in order to stay in the relationship. And that's your best chance because you know what you're doing. You guys will work. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's so good. It's really, it goes back to that. Like, you have a choice.

56:44And like, like the title of this podcast, right? Like, we have victory in Christ. Yeah. And and that is that that you're not alone, right? That this just struggling with sexual integrity is so lonely, but to know that there's others who've walked this path and that you don't have to do it alone. That there are people who will come alongside you. Even if you live out in the middle of nowhere, they're like, I don't have anyone to meet with in person. The internet is a beautiful thing. Yeah. And it brings couples together like us. Yes. That's right. Definitely. So yeah. Yeah. Some of my best friends who know the most about my true self are people that I met in recovery because they were the first people that I was able to be authentic and honest with entirely. Yeah. And so they may not know how tall I am. Right. Your favorite color. Yeah. Your favorite color or a lot about, you know, my personal life, but they know me

57:51because they know my story. Yeah. And I think that that is so empowering for everyone. And to be like, the people are out there and oftentimes they don't live next to you. Yeah. That's right. That's right. And so and that's okay because that community is there and they do care about you. That's right. I'm 100% relate to that. Yeah. Shout out to Gary. He was way grouply years ago and he's he's retired. He lives in Ohio. He still checks in with me. The guy like that person. No, haven't met him in person. Yeah. That's right. But made a world of a difference. Absolutely. That's right. That's right. Well, thank you. People for coming on. Where can people find you? Yeah. Yeah. So we are the trailblazing life on many platforms. So primarily we're on Instagram at the trailblazing life. Go check out our YouTube channel or just getting it started. But we're trying to post a lot more encouraging videos and helpful videos. And then our website is the trailblazinglife.com. Awesome. So please check it out.

58:53Take a look and get connected to get some free resources on there as well. They do. Yeah. Love resources. Those are great for advertising your values and your. That's right. That's well, thank you guys so much. We feel kind of sad reading this time with them. This is great. Yeah, that's right. But we appreciate you both so much for taking the time with us today. And for everybody listening out there, again, we are praying for you with YouTube for listening and checking in. And we will look forward to seeing you next week. Have a great week. Bye guys. Thanks so much for joining us today. Don't forget to subscribe for every listen to podcast to catch every new episode. If you believe in what we're doing and want to help others find free and two, consider supporting the cause and visit purebethrewpodcast.com to donate. Every gift makes the most of us.