Purity Culture, Predators, and End-Times Hysteria | Melissa Duge Spiers on Life Inside Adventism

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It has more members than the SBC.

It's bigger than the Mormons.

They have 23 plus million members.

Why are they so into the radar?

It's quite calculated.

They're one of those end times cults that thinks that they're going to be persecuted by the

government.

So they kind of want to stay out of the spotlight.

I think because of that, also you can live your entire life as an Adventist and really

never go outside of the bubble.

They've got publishers, they've got schools, they've got the fourth largest medical system

in the world.

They've got the third largest educational system I think in the world.

Female prophet founded the church.

She was hit in the head with a rock when she was about nine, ten years old for the rest

of her life.

She had hallucinations and seizures.

To this day, they wanted to admit, oh, maybe, traumatic brain injury.

And to this day, she's the prophet.

She has the spirit of prophecy.

She advocated for female genital medilation to stop masturbation.

She was three years old and an Adventist doctor just sliced off all her body parts.

She went to another Adventist doctor later and said, what in the heck happened to me and

they gave her a pamphlet on masturbation and they shoved her out the door, basically.

Walking away is just such a powerful thing to do.

What it takes to get there.

Welcome back to The Preachoy's Podcast.

I'm your host, Eric Squizinski.

I'm a former fundamentalist who now sheds light on the dark side of the church, the pulpit,

to the pews.

Today, I'm sitting down with my new friend, Melissa Doogie Spires.

Melissa is a former seven day Adventist, an award-winning essayist, a screenwriter, an

advocate for topics of religious and narcissistic abuse.

Her memoir, Holy Disobedience, won the 2021 Book Pipeline Unpublished Nonfiction

Manuscript Prize.

And by the time you're watching this, it's available to purchase wherever books are

sold.

If you watch this video out, there's a link in the show notes for your convenience.

So if you want to grab a copy and have a small portion of your purchase support this show,

be sure to use the affiliate link there to grab a copy.

But that's enough for me.

Let's get to my conversation with Melissa Doogie Spires.

All right, Melissa, thanks so much for joining me on The Frigey Boys Podcast.

Thank you for having me.

I'm really excited to chat with you about a denomination I don't think I've ever talked

about on the show before.

And I'm actually fairly familiar with the denomination, and I'll explain why in a second.

But it was really interesting, a friend of mine named Jared has a channel called Helio

Centric, and he just did an episode on Seven Day of Venice.

And one of the things he mentioned we were both kind of texting about is, it's incredible

how large the Seven Day Adventist world is.

The Seven Day Adventists are substantially bigger than the Jehovah's Witnesses or the

Latter-day Saints.

And somehow I know next to nothing about them.

Like how much media coverage has there been about Mormonism just in the past year alone.

And then you tell people about Seven Day Adventism and like some of the crazy history behind it.

And nobody knows it.

It has more members than the SBC.

It's bigger than the Mormons.

They have 23 plus a million members.

So why has nobody really heard about Seven Day Adventists?

Why are they so under the radar, compared to everybody else?

You know, my opinion is that it's quite calculated that they like operating under the radar

because they, well, first of all, they're one of those end times cults that thinks that

the government's going to force them to blah, blah, blah, especially because they worship

on Saturdays.

They have this whole thing that they're going to be persecuted for worshiping on Saturday

by the government.

I kind of want to stay out of the spotlight, I think, because of that end times weirdness.

But cult, cult, but honestly, but also it's a, it's a weird mix of superiority.

You know, they really do think that they're just so special that they really don't need

to soil their little feats in the, in the world.

But also, I think certainly past first generation, it's fear because they're raised in such

a bubble that even when like the kids that I went to high school with, now that I look

at where their life trajectory, a bunch of us kind of made it out of the religion at

one point or another.

And almost everybody went back in like nobody can cut it in the real world, you know?

So they just, because it's so foreign and so hard.

So I think they all just go retreat back into their bubble and nobody hears about them.

Plus they also are, but people often confuse them with JWs, which kind of cracks me up.

Because of course they all came from that same Millerite movement that the Mormons did.

So there's a lot of Quincy Twinsiness there, but very much unlike the JWs, Adventists

are huge on education, they're huge on medical care.

And you can live your entire life as an Adventist and really never go outside of the bubble.

They've got, you know, publishers, they've got schools, they've got medical schools, they've

got legal training, they've just everything, they've got the fourth largest medical system

in the world.

They've got the third largest educational system I think in the world, every one of those

they rank of course right behind the Catholics, but in the Mormons sometimes.

So they really just kind of feel like why do they have to make themselves known?

They're doing quite well.

I think, I don't know, really, it is quite mysterious.

Yeah.

The medical side is how I'm familiar because I grew up in Southern California, so it was

24 minutes from Lomolinda, and I know we'd often have, you know, people you know, go to

the hospital, they end up at Lomolinda, and you know, I grew up very fundamental Baptist.

And the only thing I knew when I went is like, okay, they're run by Summit Day of Venice,

they have church on Saturday, and when you go to the cafeteria, you can't grab a coke,

and you can't get anything that has meat in it.

So that was like a big bummer for me coming from the Baptist world where it's like potlucks

and big gulps, the big, very different world.

Just out of my own curiosity, are they, they're not big on proselytizing then?

It sounds like it's just a generational, like you kind of raise up and then move closer

to a community or...

They are huge missionaries, I mean, they, they, but they're not, they're not the door-to-door

JW type of thing, usually, they do do that, they call it cold-portering or something,

and they try to go sell their prophet's book door-to-door, so they do.

But it's just not as, again, it's not as well-known as the Mormons and the JWs, and they're

main, I mean, it's really, in my opinion, disgustingly colonial missionaries, and that

is their big push.

They target very needy communities both in the United States and increasingly abroad.

And they sweep in there and they build schools and they build a hospital and they come in

with medical care and English lessons and blah, blah, blah, blah, and then they've got

church members that are so grateful that then they've got guaranteed generations.

So they definitely do that kind of proselytizing missionary stuff.

Interesting.

And kind of gentrifying for the Lord, going into all these communities, yeah.

Yes.

And vilifying all the local cultures, of course, all the local cultures are devil and, you

know.

Yeah.

It's so fascinating because that's the thing I kept going back to, you know, reading

from you and then also listening to you on so many shows is, I was like, if you swapped

out seven-day Venice for independent fundamental Baptist, I would be like, this sounds so similar,

just way healthier.

Literally, I was like, aside from the health restrictions, like the way you talk about

purity culture and the illustrations you give there, you mentioned in one of your episodes,

I think maybe in your book as well, like drum beats, we're not allowed in the music

because it comes from Africa and, you know, it's used in pagan practices, like all that

stuff feels so familiar.

But beneath the iceberg is all these things that I had never heard before that are very unique

to the religion.

And I want to first start with the fact that the religion is co-founded by a female, which

is really interesting.

Can you give a kind of brief history lesson about that?

And how different that looks from what the movement kind of looks like today?

Well, of course, the big irony there, just, I mean, there are so many ridiculous parts

about the prophet, et cetera.

But the big irony is that, of course, it was founded by a female.

But to this day, they will not officially ordain women.

They will let women preach now, I've heard certainly when I was there and went up until

high school, women were not even allowed to preach.

But so female prophet founded the church, but no female ordain.

But the, and then the funny, weird part of that is that she was hit in the head with

a rock when she was about nine, ten years old and she suffered, I mean, she was in bed,

I think, for weeks and weeks with hallucinations and seizures and ever on, for the rest of

her life, she had hallucinations and seizures.

And somehow that has never, to this day, they won't admit, oh, maybe, traumatic brain

injury.

And there's also this thing called Gishwin syndrome that was defined in like 1987 or so,

that just goes with the frontal lobe, an injury that ticks off every single thing she

did, like hyper religiosity, you know, low sex drive and really critical of sex or hypersexual

is a, is a lesser symptom than she went, obviously the low one, um, hypergraphia, like constant

writing and she just like put out some, anyway, so she clearly, the woman had severe,

she sustained severe brain injury and damage and started a church from it.

And to this day, she's the prophet, she has the spirit of prophecy.

She plagiarized really heavily and the Adventists will defend that till they're dying breath.

Oh, everybody did it back then.

And then you say, but, but, but she was saying it was from God.

So everybody did it back then is not this, you know, it doesn't touch it here.

And, um, well, it doesn't matter, hers was the spirit of prophecy.

You have to have faith, of course, faith.

Yeah, it's really interesting because like, again, that it, that does separate seven

day Adventists is that they are so high on education, which is so different.

Again, that's a big difference from the background.

I grew up in where, you know, you don't want to be an educational system.

You don't want to, you know, there's like what the Bible teaches and their science,

you know, it's like there's these two things.

And, you know, Lomalyn is an amazing hospital, you know, like there's some very brilliant

minds there.

And it, it always fascinates me like when there's people, because like I picture the tent

meeting and the preacher gets up and it's like, you know, what, what else do you have but

religion?

But then you go to a highly educated group and you go like, hey, here's this really crazy

thing.

It's, it's not too far off of a, a Joseph Smith type situation.

And you're going to discard like your PhD or medical degree.

You're going to get rid of all these things and just accept this.

Was this something that you ever saw like early on like a, a contradiction where you're

like, okay, we all would say in any other instance, none of this adds up.

But for us, it does.

Like, how did people grapple with that growing up?

I wish I had better recall from there, you know, because I left at 18.

So I don't, um, to me, it just never, the stuff, like just basic Bible stuff never made

sense.

Like why did there have to be good and evil and why didn't God just correct Satan in

the beginning and save us all, you know, just all those elementary questions.

So by the time it got to the Adventist, particular stuff, I was just like, you know, and I just

thought none of it had made any sense.

So I didn't spend a whole lot of time thinking about it and observing the adults around

me to see how they dealt with the basic cognitive dissonance.

Of course, my sister and I now have talked for the past 30 years about, you know, my dad

has multiple degrees and is a very intelligent man.

And he buys into all of it.

And I've tried to have conversations with him.

And it's basically, well, you just have to decide what you believe.

And then you have to just go all in, you know, and I mean, he's got a medical degree

and he'd, but then they still went until I left the church.

They were still believing the world was 6,000 years old and creation and all that stuff.

He's kind of softened later in life, I think, on some of those points.

But the church in general really hasn't, um, they're still pretty, pretty much definitely

creationism and, you know, uh, so I don't know how they, um, certainly I can just speak

from the education within the educational system up until high school.

And yes, they're really into education, but it's a very narrow education, you know.

So we didn't, we didn't read the classics because they were all gay and they encouraged

critical thinking and, um, we couldn't read a lot of literature.

We couldn't read, um, science was, of course, just basic biology and chemistry.

We didn't actually get into any great, interesting earth sciences.

And, you know, so it was, it was very limited in education.

Yeah.

Well, this is an interesting piece of your story is that you are a fourth generation, um,

seven day of Venice.

Yep.

Um, there won't be a fifth, sadly, uh, it ends there, not on my side.

Um, but no, you're, you're a fourth generation and you grew up in it.

We share that similar days.

Well, I was born and raised in the domination that I was in, uh, the difference is I believed

everything incredibly deeply and there's still little things I'm disentangling from all

the time you said I'm like from day one, you were just like, this doesn't make sense

to me.

Describe what it's like, first of all, how does that happen when you're grown up and they

have you from day one?

How do you not just accept it as truth because that's all you're taught?

But also like, I can't imagine surviving being in one of those systems if you don't believe

it wholeheartedly.

You know what I mean?

So like, how did that play out for you as a young, young Melissa growing up in the seven

day of Venice world?

It has obviously caused lots of lasting trauma.

I mean, I have to say in terms of having, having gotten so practiced early on at hiding

my feelings and hiding what I thought, you know, that I still to this day struggle a lot

with, with even being able to access feelings and stuff because they just weren't safe.

You knew that you were, um, so that that's an ongoing thing.

But, um, you know, some of it, it's weird being so indoctrinated.

I mean, it really is child abuse indoctrinating children that way.

Um, like I didn't believe, um, I think I sensed fear in the adults.

Like from my very earliest memories and, um, I talk a lot in the book about, I sensed

it in, and my teenage years around sex, particularly, but it started much earlier than that just

in general that they were so afraid that we would find something out.

They, they just had to keep us so close and so monitored and so force fed.

And just something in that, I was the strongwilled child.

I was the rebel.

And I always just, it didn't sit right, but I didn't know what else was out there.

And I knew that I couldn't, um, I did rebel a lot and fight like with my mother and, um,

but that was a closed circuit, right?

Um, so it was just, it literally was a matter of kind of, I have to buy my time and grab

the bits and little tiny pieces, um, until I can make it all make sense.

Um, but then also so much of it is just embedding in you.

Like, like the God part never made sense and Satan and all of that to me, but I was terrified

of hell.

I was terrified of the end times and that we would be persecuted for worshiping on Saturday.

And I bought in wholeheartedly that we were superior and we were special.

We were God's chosen.

I had for some reason no problem believing that part.

Um, so it's a weird mix, you know, you, you, you, you, you have some parts.

That's that just soaked in, um, and then some parts that you just couldn't embrace, um,

and so I guess that's what makes deconstructing so hard, right?

Is it because you have to identify those things of like, what did I ever really believe

and, um, and what is still buried in there, uh, you know, you still, in, in moments of

like sheer terror or something, you go, oh my God, you know, and you think you're going

to start praying or something and I was like, no, no, no, um, but it's just, it's in

there.

It's buried.

Yeah.

It's, it's like when your emotional brain takes over and then the logic catches up and

you're like, why am I panicked about X, Y and Z?

Yeah.

Would anybody, I know you said like you rebelled with your mom, which is kind of vague.

Like everybody could say they go through that stage.

But in terms of like the religious side, how much would the people around you have been

aware that you were questioning the religion itself?

Like they might see you like, oh, she's interested in boys, all of a sudden and she's

rebelling in that way or she's sneaking out going here and doing this like, but how much

of it was you going, I read this thing in my Bible and it doesn't make sense and like,

I'm going to push back on this or was that it was all behavioral stuff that you were kind

of pushing back on.

Um, I would say, and that's part of what I'm very interested to, I know that people

I went to school with are buying and reading the book and I'm very interested to hear

from them because I would wager a substantial amount that all of them thought I was absolutely

hookline and sinker adventist, you know, I preached for Sabbath school and I did the prayers

at whatever week of prayer and um, I was a goody two shoes.

I was super, seemingly devout, I think and I did everything right, you know, I, and

because that was armor that was I didn't want to have to fight everyone because I tried

to do it just within my family early enough on, particularly again with my mother more

of her behavioral things, but same thing like you just, you could not win and your will

was broken.

And so I just learned that from everything then just don't even try and I did try to have

a few philosophical conversations with my dad, um, again, just really rudimentary when

I was like nine or 10 and just the question about why there had to just be good and bad

and why there was still evil in the world, you know, and he would just give me these answers

that weren't really answers, they weren't an invitation to actually talk about it.

It was just a way to shut me up.

And so I just thought, okay, well, there you go, you know, um, I just won't, won't ask,

I won't question.

And so I started a habit very young of trying to organize anything that I wanted to do

that I knew wasn't approved like completely under the wire so that nobody knew I wouldn't

tell anybody what I wanted to do.

I didn't tell people where I wanted to go to school or what I wanted to do with my life

or anything.

I just played the little party line up here, oh, I was perfect.

And underneath I was like, I'm going here and I'm going there and I'm going there.

And by the time I was 18, I'd laid all the plans and I got out.

Yeah.

Yeah.

When you were, well, let me ask you this first before it subs by me and I forget to ask

later, but you mentioned a lot of your friends from back then, you know, are probably

buying the book.

They're going to be startled by that.

And I'm sure startled by many other things throughout the book.

On a scale of 1 to 10, how terrified are you at the thought of former classmates reading

your recollection of events?

Woo.

Not at all, actually.

I think I'm really welcoming to and interested to see what they think.

I think they will be shocked.

And I even in hindsight found out that most of the kids in my Adventist Academy were

doing normal stuff, having sex, drinking, whatever.

Nobody told me, even my best friends that I thought at the time, apparently they were

doing all kinds of stuff.

You just weren't invited.

You told me because I was just such a goody-two shoes, you know, so I think everyone's

going to be a little amused to see like this is how I turned out and this is what was

really going on.

And so I'm well, I'm looking forward to those conversations honestly because I don't

think anyone, including myself, saw it coming.

Yeah.

It is funny.

I think about all the time in the context of the show because I have people from the

past have listened and the person I am now versus the person they knew then who was

bought in and would argue privately, you know, like Jesus did not turn water into wine.

He turned it into grape juice.

If you look at the original text, you know, you can start, you can start really figuring

out what it's saying, you know, and so like I think sometimes then they see me now

and they're like, what a 180, you know, or even like, that's not what you think.

And it's like, well, 30-year-old Eric is a little different.

I hope a little more developed than, you know, 16, 17-year-old Eric.

Well, let me talk to you about leaving then because you left when you were 18.

And you went, I talk about a pretty culture on the show all the time.

Your story is like one of the most zero to 100 stories of sheltered purity culture to

just exploring the world.

Like can you talk about that period and I want to get two sides of this one.

What do you think full four?

Because there's a lot you're thankful for about that period.

But also you were very sheltered and came from purity culture.

So I'm sure there's some things that happened that could have been avoided, had you been

properly educated, had you been given good information, had a safer support system.

So are there any regrets from that period, Rigo, if I could go back and hold Melissa's

hand and say, don't do this thing, what are some of those things that you would bring

up?

Yeah.

Oh, thank you.

That's a really good food for that thing.

Yeah.

I'll try to summarize it really quickly.

So I had really not dated or had any physical experience with anybody until, like my junior

senior, it was my senior year.

And I just decided it was just like a flip, the switch flipped.

And I thought, you know, really everyone's just afraid that we're going to find out what

sex is all about.

Like where there's all this organization, we had these classes and everything charts and

all this stuff about and books have not to have sex, not to have sex.

And I was just like, Bucket, I'm going to go find out because they, again, very literal

year.

Right.

Exactly.

No fun.

Very Freudian slip.

Exactly.

I just thought that it was, it was ridiculous.

And so I knew I couldn't do it in the Adventist system that the gossip was too much and I would

have to, I would have to go have prayer sessions or God knew what would happen to me.

I mean, I knew people who'd been sent off to conversion camps or something because,

I don't know, something about their sexuality.

So, you know, it was all so scary back then.

So I went down to the local high school and I just started watching football and basketball

games and there were these two twins that were absolutely gorgeous and I was like, okay,

it's going to be one of them.

And I figured out which one was looser off and on with his girlfriend and I just hooked

up with him.

And that didn't last very long, but it was my first relationship.

And from then on, it was just, you know, I felt so proud of myself because I had proven

the crumpled cupcake or whatever, the crumpled dollar and the licked cupcake and the chewed

gum and all that stuff, the trampled shirt was totally wrong because I didn't feel

a thing.

And so then that was my sexual experience for way too long.

And so I am really, so the things I'm grateful about that is that, well, first of all,

so many people I know who grew up in the religious system, their first sexual experience

was not their choice.

So mine was my choice and I wasn't nine.

So there's that, but and that, you know, overall, it was a good experience and that I didn't,

you know, I mean, so many people got married so that they could have sex.

I didn't go that route and I still to this day don't feel guilt over sex.

So I think that's actually pretty remarkable coming from that background that I escaped

all of that too.

The things that I regret is, and I'm not sure how I would fix it if I went back to talk

to young Melissa, but clearly the fact that I learned through the purity culture in

indoctrination, but also through the way I approached getting rid of virginity, et cetera,

took emotion out of it, took, took sex and love to me are two separate things and they

still are.

And I really feel that if I had been raised in a different culture of a different experience

I'd had, like you said, more support, more education, more everything, perhaps it could

have been different.

Well, can you back that a little bit what you mean because I can give our context, which

is, you know, it was depending who you talk to, you would either get that like, you know,

with a married couple, you know, it's basically the marriage beds undefiled.

So like, you know, in this sanctity of marriage, sex can just be this amazing thing doing

to people and all these things.

But there was also a branch of those people that were like, sex is not for pleasure.

It's for procreation.

And if you're eliminating the possibility of procreation, yes, it's pleasurable.

But there needs to be that possibility, like you can't limit what God wants to do in

blessing you with children and all those sorts of things.

Is that kind of what you mean when you say like, it took emotion out of it where it's

like, this is a functional thing, this is something that you do, or is it, do you mean

something different that's tied to some form of SDA theology I'm not familiar with?

It makes it very, you know, mechanical.

Yeah.

It just simply means that it's a physical function of a biological function of like, it's

like eating or it's like this and that.

Which doesn't mean I don't believe in, you know, commitment to people or whatever that

you're in a relationship with, although I don't have a terribly great track record with

that either.

But, yeah, it just completely somehow I had to kill or it was killed in me.

I'm not sure the fact that it could be this amazing emotional connection vehicle for

people that really brought people together and made this incredible special moment for

people.

To me, it's just, it's just fun and it's great and it's, when it's consensual and it's,

you know, the sky's the limit, but there's nothing there, there, no big, deep, whatever.

Okay.

When it comes to whether we're talking about sex or anything else that people explore

when they leave a super controlling religion, this is a really tricky thing, I think, to

walk through yourself and then also to walk other people through when you're, you know,

hosting a podcast on the topic or I'm sure writing a book on the topic where in these

groups, there's, it's kind of like the Lion King.

It's like, you don't go where the shadows are, you know, it's like, there's certain things

that are off limits.

And on some levels, some of the things that you're restricted from, it's like sprint to

those things that they're telling you don't look under the, behind the curtain, don't

look under this thing.

But also some things are really harmful.

They have really good boundaries on them for a reason.

And I guess I'm curious like now as a person who's thought about this a lot and, you know,

I just put some years between teenage brain trying to figure this out.

What's something you do practically to determine whether something is being kept away because

it's actually harmful or if it's something you should, you know, taste test to see like,

this is probably fine because like that's something I still wrestle with where it's like,

yeah, maybe this XYZ thing would be really helpful and that would be great as a parent

or would be great as a spouse and then other things you do it and go like, oh, I can't

believe we didn't do that for so long.

How do you kind of weigh out what's a safe test?

I guess.

Oh, oh, oh, well, I'm going to have to borrow some breakfast to Tiffany's and say, well,

I can't think there's anything that I haven't done, but so I'm not sure.

You know, I always tell people to triage for sure and a two column triage of identify

the things that harmed you the most and work on those and then identify the things that

you really wanted to do the most, but you were taken away from you and then work on those.

But that doesn't really say, how would you test for how harmful they are?

Yeah.

Because I think the example we would have heard Grump is like, you don't need to try

math to know that it's bad, you know, and they would then they would say, you don't

need to try premarital sex to know or whatever the thing is.

Right.

And so yeah, but I think I think what you just said is a really interesting way of looking

as like, what were the things you were kept from that you did enjoy that were harmless

and working on those things, which is a lot you can cover before you get to things that

could potentially be harmful, but also I think like unpacking the motivation of why they

were keeping certain things is probably, probably helpful as well, you know, I think so.

And then just I feel like this seems so overworked at this point, but really kind of sitting

with your body to tell you, I mean, we were all so disconnected from our bodies just in

general and our and our gut, our gut feeling.

And I think if you can sit so simple, but if you can sit with yourself quietly enough

for a few minutes and just be like, why do I want to do this thing?

You know, why would I want to do math?

What would it do for me?

And why, you know, like, what would be the, I think you could probably come to a fairly

good, a solid analysis there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What's your motivation?

I'm waiting to do it.

Yeah.

Exactly.

Is it rebellion?

Is it just knee jerk?

Like, I got to do it because they sent no, you know, like a toddler.

I mean, sometimes that's fun.

Yeah.

Is it, is it just because it's been taken away from you?

Or do you think there could be something positive?

Yeah.

Well, let me ask you about that because rebellion is a big part of your story, spoiler alert

for those who haven't read the book yet.

But this was, this is something that I have gone back and forth on and how I feel about

it.

And I'll use drinking as an example.

A lot of times I will, me and my friend talk about this when you go out to dinner with

a friend who's still a Baptist, you know, and you're saying that you're like, Oh, I

know it's going to bother them.

I'm going to order a beer, you know, and in some of the people who do that might not

really love beer.

And they wouldn't normally order the beer for lunch, but they're like, as a finger to

that world, I'm going to do it.

And when it comes to rebellion, it's like, I'm going to do the thing I wasn't supposed

to do.

I think there's merit to some of those things.

But I also, the thing that always kept me kind of tethered to like reality is I would go,

if I'm living my life in reaction to what I left, they're still controlling me, you

know?

And so like, how do you balance out the feeling of like, I'm taking control versus like

by doing these things they said I should never do.

They're still controlling me because I'm just the opposite reaction.

Like, how do you weigh out what's actually for you versus what's still really serving

them?

Like now you're just an illustration of what goes wrong.

Yeah.

I think that is a big struggle for those of us who came from super high control where

there's just that whole list of a million things, you know, that you've never been to

a concert, you know?

Yeah, you just want to throw it in their face.

And I, you know, I'm totally like, I'm wearing my, wearing my little dragon today, you

know, Adolescent won't don't like jewelry and they certainly don't like dragons.

So you know, I do still do like little things to like poke, even if I don't usually wear

jewelry, you know?

But so I think some of it can be really fun, right?

And pretty innocent.

But again, I do think that you have to sit with yourself and say, you know, why am I just

doing this to make a point?

And if so, is it a, is it a point to me?

Am I, am I testing drinking or whatever for my benefit?

Or is it simply to just poke the bear or make a statement?

And then you, you feel a little foolish once you actually identify the things that you're

doing that are, that are just for show basically to, you know, and, but I mean, I couldn't

go back and forth, back and forth, cut a lot of slack for people that need to do stuff

just for show for a while because they're forming their inside independence while having

to form this kind of crossed out here that's a little outrageous and they don't really

lean into that too much, but it helps them define that boundary of I'm breaking away.

Yeah, it's, I always go back because I put out something, maybe a year and a half ago

and I was like saying, being a former fundamentalist should not be your entire personality.

And I still stand on that, I think in many ways, and I mean it in the sense of what do

you actually like versus what do you just, you know, again, it's a person drinking the

bear.

It's like, I don't like beer, but they just said I couldn't drink beer.

And it's like, well, maybe find what you do like.

You might be a Cabernet person, you know?

And, but then some people kind of push back and they're like, you know, the whole point

of leaving is that you don't tell people what their personality can be.

And you're like, okay, let me back off the gas a little bit here.

But yeah, I was, I was curious your take on all that before I shift gears into a couple

different things here.

When you were testing all these things, I know you didn't buy into like SDA theology.

Did you have a period at any point after leaving where you dip the toe into any other religious

practices where you're like, or did you ever go like as an adult like, I'm going to read

the SDA books and see if they're on to something that I missed, you know, was that a piece

of the journey or was it something where you're like, I've done the religion thing, you

know, like it's time to do, do me.

Yeah, I, um, in college, I started taking karate.

I was in college in New York City and there were these all these great dojos everywhere.

And so I picked a place that I really loved that was very traditional.

And so part of that was Zen Buddhist meditation.

And I did take a couple of Buddhism classes in Columbia and I took shamanism.

And I took, uh, so I did experiment in a couple of other, I mean, obviously shamanism

was more of like a history of it wasn't like, hey, let's all become shaman's.

But, um, but I did experiment, experiment a little bit with Buddhism for sure.

And if I had to pick a religion, certainly Zen Buddhist would be what I would pick.

And I still do meditate, I, there's a little monk online in Tibet who posts his little

meditation videos and I do those quite frequently.

And I never did go back, oh, and I, and I loved, I honestly love to go to Catholic services.

Of course, there's that little bit of me that's like, fuck you Adventists because they

think the, the Catholics are from the devil.

They think they're six, six, six there, whatever.

And so every time I set foot in a Catholic church, I'm like, oh, but, um, but mostly I like

it because I like formality and I like, I like pomp and circumstance and I love organ

music.

And, um, so I will just go if there's a service going and I am like walking down the street,

I will go sit in there and listen for 15 minutes to the, I love choir music.

Um, and I'll listen and, um, I love the Latin.

I don't, I, I never studied Latin, so I have no idea, but when they're doing the super

high bass or whatever with the prayers, it's just like, oh, that's so cool.

Um, but that's more of just a, um, you know, it's like going to watch a play for me.

It's all like I'm buying into spirituality at all.

Um, but I feel good, you know, I, I, there's a certain loveliness that's in, um, in churches

that I think is, Adventist churches are so kind of, and I've never been to like a mega

church, like a Baptist or a, you know, like any of those.

So I can't tell, again, I like the pomp and circumstances of the older, um, uh, there's

a gorgeousness, even though, you know, how most of those churches were built on the back

circle, horribly enslaved and tortured people, um, there's beauty there, you know, and

I, and I like that part.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Anything that ties to like old history, like, is, is interesting and, um, I know like visiting

like old Catholic churches, I love, like, and it's something, you know, I do a show that

largely covers sexual abuse in churches.

So I can't praise the Catholics too much on the show, uh, but when I, you know, and,

of course, not all Catholics and, of course, not all churches, uh, disclaimer for all the

Catholics tuning into this episode with a Baptist in a seven day of Venice, um, but,

no, it's really cool to see something that's like, this is how it's been done for hundreds

or in the case of some churches, thousands of years.

And there is a rich beauty and there is a lot of things that are really cool.

And the stained glass is like my favorite thing in the world.

And I'm always like, if I had unlimited budget, I would create a office that's just stained

glass and like bookshelves and it would just look like a pastor's office somewhere.

Um, but yeah, it's, it's, it's really, really neat.

Um, well, to, since we're talking about the Catholics, let's talk about sexual abuse

showing, um, I, one of the things that you mentioned is, um, you know, this is not something

that you were seeing on the regular growing up in it.

This is a bit very much you uncovered in your mid thirties, um, that sexual abuse was

a thing and you found this out because a family member, uh, was uncovered as a predator.

Um, just tell us a little bit about that.

Obviously, people can hear longer or shorter versions of the story elsewhere, but, um,

how did you discover this and how did it reframe the way you looked at all of that religious

past?

Yes.

Okay.

So, uh, you know, top level review was, yes, when I was growing up, nobody taught, I,

I didn't even know about sexual abuse at all, really seriously.

Um, and certainly if we, you did hear it, it was the Boy Scouts or the Catholics and

both of those were awful.

And, um, so, you know, we just thought everything was perfect.

And, um, then I, when I left the church at 18, um, my dad had been a doctor most of my

life, but he had been a youth pastor when I was really teeny, um, and then, uh, when,

as soon as we were all through college, he went back to being a pastor and, um, we got

fun calls and I was about 35 or something saying he was being removed from his post at the

church that he'd been put at because of victim of his when he was a youth pastor when I was

a baby had called the church and said he should not be given any power of authority.

And so, um, at the time that was, I mean, it still is devastating.

And most of my family has not dealt with it.

Like my dad was worshipped in our family and in the church at large as far as we all knew.

And, um, so it was devastating.

And as the strongwild child and the only kid that really just botted heads with things,

I was the only family member of the extended family who literally sat my parents down

and said, what the fuck is this, you know, and like, what's going on?

And, um, then found out, of course, there was more, more than one victim because, of course,

there always is and, um, so, and then that just kind of dropped and nobody wanted to talk about

it and we all sailed through our lives because our family doesn't talk about things for the next

five or so years. And then I literally stumbled across an article, um, because I was still kind

of in my, I hate the church phase that I'd been in since I was 18 and then I was a plus to 40 probably.

And, um, I saw an article about this really horrific sex abuse case at one of the Adventist

Monterey Bay Academy in the 80s and some of my cousins had gone there in the 80s and I was like,

oh, I'm going to read this article, that was fucking Adventist. And, um, and I read it and literally

there was, they interviewed a woman about other, they were interviewing all these people about

other sex abuse cases in the Adventist church, which I just blew my mind right there.

And then I was reading this paragraph and I was like, this woman is talking about my dad.

And, um, so I wrote to her and, uh, she wrote back and since then we've been friends.

And at the time I thought what I really needed to chase down was the story of how could this person

who was so magical in my life be this other person like, who was he to you? What did he tell you?

What, what happened? Like, how could he be these two people? And, um, and she was very forthcoming

and very, she's just a magnificent person and so generous and she was, she told me anything I

wanted to know, but she kept bringing up the Adventist church and how all these horrible things about

it that I hadn't known about how they, they were circumcising girls, um, because it had been

recommended for her and, um, how they just, the huge sex abuse case. And I, I didn't have the bandwidth

and so, and I just, I dropped communication for a while because it was just all too overwhelming.

And, um, then when I picked it back up just seven years ago or so and started talking to her again,

I had to approach it from a whole other angle because I realized it wasn't her story, my dad's

story, like she got to confront my dad, like as an adult and just like read it out. Like, I didn't

need to protect her and that's kind of what I've had felt guilty about as a kid or, you know,

being the kid approaching it at 35, whatever. Um, and what she really was most angry about

that I could see that second, um, meeting up with her basically is that

this, the church had screwed her multiple times. Like, she'd gotten to say her piece with my

dad as an adult, but the church had told her, okay, we'll take him, when she came to get him removed

from the position at, you know, uh, the church had told her, okay, great, we'll remove him, please

don't sue, please don't take it public. We'll remove him, he'll never have any, whatever.

Within freaking weeks, he was preaching in two different churches, it was on YouTube,

it was on whatever. I mean, they had done it to her as a child, they'd made her the villain,

they'd moved my dad around, he'd gotten off scot free, and then they did it to her again when she

was 45 or whatever she was at that time, 50, I guess, maybe. Um, and I, at that point, I realized

that's where I need to look for my healing. And, and if I wanted to do anything about this situation,

that's where my energy is best spent. Yeah. Uh, is tracking down and holding accountable the church

who has not only done this did this to this woman who is now my friend, but thousands of people.

So I started speaking out about it and I just went online and I didn't start talking about

the family case or her at all, I just started talking about how weird the Adventist church was

because it's weird. And, um, and then people just start talking to me, people start telling me their

stories, they just, I mean, every day now, practically in my DMs, I have more people who were abused.

Now that I've come out and said, actually, my father was the predator in my family.

I have people in my DMs, I just had one today who said, you and I are identical. My dad was a

seven dad and a spaster and blah, blah, blah. I've had multiple ones of those and, um, it's crazy.

And it's the church like the Baptists and like the Catholics, they all have the same playbook.

They cover it up, they move people around, they blame the girls or the boys. And, um,

there's no accountability. There's just none. And so that has now become my mission.

Yeah. I, I saw last month, you shared an article on Substack, um, Melissa Duky Spires.substack.com.

And, uh, you, you shared a article that there's a giant lawsuit right now, uh, involving sexual abuse

coverups within the church. Um, one of the things I'm curious about with seven day of Venice

specifically is, you know, I talk about when you leave your IFB church, you lose your community.

Meaning that's people you spend time with, that's your political views, all your buddies,

you get together and do stuff with like they're all from the church. With the way the SDA kind of

sets up legit communities, um, I have to imagine it's like a 10,000 times worse thing where you're

going to a store in low malinda where everybody else is seven day of Venice or any other place you

want to, you want to put on the map. Um, you know, how does that play a role in whether or not people

feel safe to come forward? Um, and, and on the backside of that, I was curious if you know, um,

when they control a lot of the schools, they control a lot of these other organizations,

how deeply enmeshed in like the law enforcement orbit? Are they? Is that a piece of that?

Because I was thinking about like low malinda because again, that's my point of reference. I know

there are other places. Um, but I, I kept going like, I wonder if the police department is like

particularly friendly in some of these areas. And again, I'm not going to specifically throw

that as an accusation. I'm just curious from your experience and you've talked to.

You know, I don't know. That's really interesting. I don't know how in bed with law enforcement,

they are actually anti, um, government involvement. So I was like, it could go either way. You

know, that's it. They, they are, um, they're not, um, terribly. I've never even heard of an

Adventist police officer ever. You know, so I, you know, it's a, that's a really interesting

question. Just in general, what the party line is when abuse cases happen is don't go to the police,

let us handle it internally. Yeah. And there are all these promises made that of course it will

be handled, which it isn't. But there's also a lot of, a lot of shaming, particularly if it's a same

sex situation of, um, to the kids and the kids family, you don't want this to get out publicly.

This will hurt the child. This, we're thinking of the child's reputation. That's just terrible.

If you take it to the police, it's public. So let us handle it. And then, of course, they just

hush it up and get around there, everybody. It's pretty gross. The, I mean, in general, but it's also

when it's like the worst thing that could happen from the situation that someone could assume

that you're gay, you know, like that's like you, if in regardless, it wouldn't make this

less bad or more bad, like it's bad. It's just bad for what it is. Yeah. So you've talked to

many different people now who've, who've left. And I'm curious to you, like, I know you've obviously,

like you've, you've talked to my good friend, Tia Levings. I know she endorsed your book. I know

you've, you're talking to myself. You've talked to Shalee San Solo, who's another friend with

Colts to Consciousness from the Mormon world. How does it feel seeing so many similarities?

We're like I said, you could take a lot of what Shalee says about the Mormon Church,

remove Mormon and replace it with seven day of Venice. He'd be like, this same experience.

Does that shock you? Does it something where you go like, that all makes sense? Like,

what has it been like seeing all these denominations follow the same playbook as you said?

You know, at first it was terribly shocking. It was just because, of course, we were all told,

we were so special and so unique and so the only last remnant blah, blah, blah. You know,

and so even though like I'd never really quite believed any of that, I thought that there was,

there was certainly the church was unique. You know, like I didn't approve of its uniqueness,

but it must be very unique. Not at all. It's just like every other day I'm church. And just

speaking of Tia, when I watched shiny, happy people because she was in it and she and I had just

formed a friendship and I was like, oh yeah, you know, I'm going to support Tia. And I was

shocked about all the IBLP stuff because and so then I went down a rabbit hole and I realized that

the Adventists were at one point the biggest attendees of IBLP seminars. They would send

busloads over there. And what really got me about that whole thing was the hair, how they had

the exact same hair things that we had. And I thought, my sister and I grew up thinking that was

just my mother and my grandmother. And and here it was this thing with like not even just Adventists,

but all these like other. So it's crazy. And it's at this point not shocking to me anymore.

It's sad that patriarchy has, you know, Christian patriarchy just has such a grip on everything.

But it's also quite, I mean, solidarity and strength in numbers, right? It's so amazing to be like,

I can see you. We didn't go to the same thing, but I know exactly what you're talking about. And

I've got you. I got you. Yeah. Yeah. It really is the common thread is like just the patriarchal

side of it. It's like, like I always, you know, I've always talked about stuff from like,

oh, I can't believe that this religious group where women aren't allowed to talk and men have all

the power. There's rampant sexual abuse, you know, and whether we're talking about what we're

seeing certain islamic communities, whether you're seeing it in, you know, the Mormon church,

well, you know, we love trash TV. So synchronize the Mormon wives. We're watching like, that's us. Oh,

my God, look, they just were allowed to listen to music, you know, and then they go to the

Sunday bench, like, oh, they just weren't allowed to drink soda, but we were all told, like,

you're a light on a hill, you're peculiar people, you're the last, you know, the last remnant,

all these things. And it's like, it was just we're a bunch of people that we thought we were the

weirdest group. And so we must be right. And the differences are so minute, it's crazy.

It's, there was a book, I'm trying to remember what it was called. And I'm sure somebody who went

to Bible college, I skipped that trauma. But I'm sure there, there was a book on cults that they

would read in Bible college. And it's so funny. When I've looked up any excerpts, I'm like, how do

you write a whole book on cults and go like, all these things that they do that are just like us,

makes them a cult. But we're not going to talk about us at all, you know, it's such a weird,

such a weird disconnect. Okay, I'm going to ask a question here that is like so completely random,

but I just want to know. And since you're my resident, this is a seven day Adventist theology

expert. Can you explain to me, I read about this and I didn't get any closer to understanding yet.

What was, what was your view as a religious group of like the end times and your soul? Because like,

we were very much like, we're going to get raptured up. And then, you know, we're going to all end

up in heaven. And from what I understand, like, your soul doesn't die or you don't, like, I was

trying to read and make sense of it. And I was like, either this doesn't make sense where I'm just

not in the weeds enough on this. My understanding is like, there's not like a definitive like heaven,

hell dynamic, like what? What was the view there? It is so weird. And I just have to ask right now,

apologize to my other ex Adventist who were real Bob Bible scholars. And please weigh in in

the comments and correct me below because I will not get this perfectly because it's, I,

I, you checked out long before they got to the eschatology conversation. You're like, I checked out,

I'm going, but as far as I know, or I remember, the belief is that when you die, you're just dead.

Like, you don't have a soul that's separate from your body. You're just dead. And you're in,

like, a nothing space, basically. They don't believe that there's a hell that's burning right now

where people went. And they don't believe that there's a heaven where people went. Everybody's just

dead and staying dead until Jesus comes back. And then everyone is going to be raised. And he's

going to like read through the sins or something or he already has not sure how that works.

Um, and then he's going to take all the righteous up to heaven, all at once. And then the

sinful will burn here on earth for eternity. I think eternity? I'm not a little

lot fuzzy on that. But there's also this whole judgment like Jesus is reading. They have the,

it's called it and they think it's also unique. Oh, it makes them so unique. And I'm going to

botch this too. But it's, um, when, because Ellen White, of course, like all the end times,

called prophecy, that Jesus was going to come back in 1844, I think. And, um, when, uh, he

didn't, right? Or I can't even remember because 1844 was Miller, right? So she, yeah. So she

don't ask me days within her lifetime. And Jesus didn't obviously. And then so they had

to scramble and reinvent so that they could keep it. And so the patch, the little bandaid on that

was that Jesus, no, no, they'd misinterpreted. He wasn't coming back here. He was going into the

most high holy chamber of the tabernacle up in heaven. And he was, he has been reading everybody's

sins and everybody's transactions and just everything about every person on earth. And when he's

done with that, whatever magical time that is, is the end times. And he will walk out of the

tabernacle. And it's going to be end times. And he's coming down and he's going to rescue everybody.

So, um, love the thought that he's like, can you guys slow down? I'm just catching up.

I keep getting the list is getting longer. Please stop.

Exactly. I mean, the whole thing is so ridiculous. And I mean, for an omniscient God, that's

really interesting. He's had to spend thousands of years reading catching up that Tommy stole the

tricycle from next door, but, um, no, yeah, based on your memoir, I'd love to see that scroll

that we're going through line by line with the highlighter. Um, I, yeah, we always heard the, uh,

it's going to be like, you're going to see your life on like a screen. And they're going to show

you all the things you've done. Get them very unique. I'm sure you can't relate to that story at all.

Oh, right. Exactly. Yeah. But it was like, you're going to watch the greatest hits in the worst

moments, you know, on the screen. Yeah, my friends, why didn't you tell me in all these sorts of

things? Um, okay, I had to ask about that. I'm trying to see my notes here. If I had any other

last, uh, things because we can never talk again after this. I have to get them all on. That's

the funniest thing I used to always do interviews now. We get so panicked. And I'd literally be like,

locked into my notes, going, oh, my God. Oh, my God. And then I started realizing I can ask them to

come back. Exactly. I would love to come back. You're like, you're like, I can say no when you say

to come back. So get your questions. And, um, oh, I was going to ask this. This is another,

is it, let's, let's end on this because this is a really interesting thing that I knew and then

you connected the dots for me. And I didn't know that they were connected. Um, I knew a long time ago

about the Kellogg's thing. And I had no idea that he was a seven day of Venice. So give me some

John Kellogg's lower drop for my audience. So they can, they can know all about this. Because

one, if people don't know why Kellogg's hero is created, that's an amazing thing. But then give

some context as to John Kellogg himself and his connection to the church. Yes. Well, he was actually

one of the founding members. There were several that were kind of satellites around Ellen White,

but he was in that, that posse. And he ran a something called the Battle Creek Sanatorium,

which was a proto-hospital type of thing. And presidents and like royalty, everybody came and

stayed there for a while and got enemies there. I found out today. There you go. Yep.

And he was violently anti-sex. He apparently was married for forever and never had sex with his

wife. Um, he was very adamantly against even masturbation. And he sat here bodily

flavors, purers, whatever. And um, he, a lot of his treatments were too prevent. It was really sex

was the root of all bodily problems in his mind. So he had all these weird treatments like yogurt

enemas and all this stuff that he forced on people. He was, um, he was the originator of circumcising

boys in the United States, uh, because he thought it would prevent masturbation. And when they couldn't

sell that really well, then it became, oh, it's a cleanliness issue. It needs to be, you know, and,

um, but that he was also the beginning of the Adventists that carried on into Loma Linda of

circumcising girls to prevent masturbation. And um, Ellen White was also huge against that.

I mean, that was a Victorian obsession to be honest. So I mean, a lot of other people were kind of

weird about that too. But so part of his whole anti-sex was he invented cornflakes because

roughage and plain flavors, bland flavors and fiber were going to dampen sex drives. And so

he invented cornflakes. Um, and then much later he fell out with Ellen White. And I'm not quite

sure what the scuttle butt is there except that most people think it was financial. Some people say

that he and she disagreed on theological stuff. But I think the general consensus of church

critics anyway is that Ellen wanted a bigger chunk of Kellogg corporation than was being given her.

Who wouldn't, you know, but there's an excellent movie. And I think it's even a book called The

Road to Wellville with Anthony Hopkins and Matthew Broderick, uh, in it. And it's all about the

Kellogg thing. And that man was a weird dude. Definitely. I'm going to check that out. Yeah,

I was reading up on him a little bit. I had known that because like that's my favorite little like,

I love the serial story because it's so funny. Um, it doesn't work. Um, and, uh,

he's a great everybody. Um, but then, uh, reading about it, connection to the seven-day

vines. And then I came across, um, eherald, uh, Shryok, which is the hardest name in the world to

say. And his stuff is like just sadistic where his book on being a woman is that is about, yeah,

on becoming the whole female because I then I was deep diving in Loma Linda. I was like, have

they done a lot of like the FGM stuff? And it's like, uh, no, there's not record of it, but

the one of the guys that was like a big name. And I think as a building named after him,

he has a building in Shryok. And he advocated for female general medilation to stop masturbation,

which he did. And he did. And he not only was, he was the director of that whole medical school for

over 30 years. He wrote all the medical manuals. He trained all the doctors. So he died in 2002,

I believe. It was like, so, so it's not like ancient history. I mean, none of seven-day vines

inventism is ancient history. Um, but yeah, that's, that's so startling that, that's such a

voice. And they deny it. They will deny it up and down. There's a very good, um, documentary film.

If anybody wants to go down that rabbit hole, it's called The Cut by, um, uh, The Cut FGM in America

by John Chua, C-H-U-A, I believe. And it was either PBS or BBC. And I can never remember

which one. And he tracked down a, uh, an advent, a woman who had it done to her in the 60s,

probably. She was a, she was three years old. And an Adventist doctor just sliced off all the

body parts. And then she went to another Adventist doctor later and said, what didn't that happen

to me? And they gave her a pamphlet on masturbation and just left a shudder out the door, basically.

And, um, and so Chua, it's so funny. He goes to Loma Linda and he interviews the then head

of whatever and says, did you know about this? And they, and the guy was like, no, no, no, we don't,

we don't even know who Shryok is. And Chua was like, you have a building named after him. He was

like, oh, no, no, no, we don't know. I mean, it's just classic Adventist like, oh no, we're just,

we're just gonna pretend nothing is nothing to see here. And when it's all on record, like Shryok

wrote about it in a book. I think he wrote about it, but he wasn't doing it. Like, yeah,

that would be, so it's gross. The, actually, I'm getting the sensational kind of those

channels. I do not know that. No, I never spoke. So, is that true? Is it, isn't it,

smokes? I don't know. There's the subject to go back and look at it. I'm surprised by that,

but I can tell you for sure, the official position of the church today would be totally against that.

I don't know that anybody reads her ultra out today. That system doesn't have anything to do with

who we are today. There's so many things like that that pop up where you start going down a rabbit

hole about like, oh, this person and, um, uh, what was the other, uh, the Waco being connected,

which I didn't, which I've never dove deep into that story ever. Like, it's just been one of the

ones that just I haven't ever really read up on. I just know like the broad strokes of it,

but I didn't even know that was rooted in a branch off of the seven day of Venice church.

And so, um, all that to say, uh, all of the stuff that you've been putting out has just pushed me

deeper into learning more than I ever thought I would know about this religion. I know we have

to wrap it up here quickly. But the fun thing about Waco is that that's a real hot button issue

for Adventist. And one of my favorite things to do is just be like, David Kuresh was an Adventist

and then just duck, duck, and just like, and they all just go nuts because the branch

dividends actually broke off in the 1940s or 50s. Okay. But they were all Adventist. Yes.

And they, they then formed, they just had their own interpretation of whatever. It's usually

surrounding the end time stuff. Daniel and Revelation is usually where they all have their little

arguments. And, um, and then David Kuresh obviously broke off in the 80s. He was Adventist.

And he joined the branch dividends and then kind of took over. So both parts of the branch

dividends, his later takeover and the original were Adventist. And Kuresh had pictures of Ellen

White and her husband on his walls. You can see him behind him in interviews. He observed the

dietary rules. He observed the Sabbath. He, he, he took basically all Adventism with him, but he

just added his own freaky works. Um, so they were Adventist. It's just, you know, they go

little too extreme and all of a sudden the Adventist are like, oh, we have nothing to do with it.

And I have to imagine that there's some conflicting feelings with certain seven-day Adventists

who have been taught to fear a tyrannical government, seeing a guy practically, you know,

living out and pursuing this like end time theology to the max and then being taken out by

a government regime. Like, I would, that's a roundtable discussion. I'd be interested to, to sit

and watch with like people justifying or fighting and pushing back on that because I'm sure there's

some that are quietly supportive of, of things like that, you know. Yeah. From what I've heard through

just the, you know, gossip in the Adventist system is that all the survivors and escapees of it

basically went back into the Adventist system. Wow. There, there are still I guess some branch

dividends somewhere in Waco. I'm not sure, but it's pretty decimated, but that a large percentage

of the people who got out and either before or during the siege went back to being Adventist.

Well, I know that we're near the end here, but I have to ask question. I ask every single author

now that I talk to. Obviously, there's like the broad goals of the book. There's the things that

make the back cover. There's the things that you put in like a poll quote or you submit as a separate

article, but I know there's also like little gems or things that are really meaningful to you that

the average person might just like skim over while they're reading on a plane or something and go,

oh, no big deal. Is there a reference, a moment, an experience that you documented in the book that

again, isn't the main selling point of the book, but it's deeply meaningful to you and you hope

people take a second to really ponder it or just appreciate it or laugh at it that, you know, just

stands out. Oh my goodness. I have to, I mean, then this sounds very, maybe banal, but I mean,

my favorite, I still cry when I read the last chapter and I've read it. I can't even tell you

how many times, but walking away is just such a powerful thing to do and we've all had to,

you know, it's something that everybody can identify with and what it takes to get there when you

actually turn your back and walk away, you know, and so that haunts me. I still have to read that

heart for the, because I'm not done reading the audio book and I'm like, I don't know how many

to times I'm going to have to read it before I don't cry. But I also do hope. I was so excited

because Erica Smith and somebody else of my endorsers pointed out the humor and, you know, it's a,

it's a dark story and it's a dark. When I first pitched it around 20 years ago to editors,

everybody said, oh, love the writing, love the writing, but we're not doing misery in memoirs

now and I was so insulted because to me, it's a black comedy, you know, and there's redemption at

the end and I find a lot of humor in some of the absurdity, some of the everything. So I also,

I treasure the humor in it and I hope other people find it too and that they that they are

inspired at the end and that it's not too dark.

Right. Well, I definitely hope you will check it out. If you're listening to this episode right

now, it should be out any second now. If you're listening to the episode, so go grab a

copy. There's a link to it in the show notes of this episode and be on the book. I mean,

sub-stack. There's, I mean, the sub-stack is like a book that doesn't stop. You know, you keep

getting new thoughts and new insights all the time. But Melissa, thank you so much for doing this.

I'm glad we made it happen and I hope it's not the last time we talk. But if it is, just tell me

off mic and we'll pretend I never said this. I am coming back anytime you want. Awesome. Awesome.

Thank you. I'll see you this time tomorrow. Everybody else, I will see you on the next episode of

The Preach-A-Boys Podcast. You've been listening to The Preach-A-Boys Podcast hosted by Eric

Squizinski. The intro music, Bible Belt, was performed by Lou Rithley.