Q&A With Casey: How Do You Repair Feeling Like “The Bad Kid”? #633

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3:11I'm super excited to have Casey here again for our second Q&A episode. Actually just saw the questions that he's going to answer a few minutes ago. I think there's a lot of really good insights. So let's just jump into this. Casey, what encouraged you the most as a pre-teen boy? What did your parents do during that time that made a positive impression on you? Yeah, I think the biggest thing was just rewarding me when I actually was responsible. I remember having a much earlier curfew than all of my friends, which made me kind of I was really annoyed with that. I wanted a later curfew. I started to come text my dad early, text my mom early, come home early if I was already in the neighborhood. The idea of that was kind of to prove to you guys that I could control myself and that I was going to be responsible with the limitations I already had. The thing that I think you all did really, really well was you actually rewarded that. You gave me a later curfew because

4:16you realized that I was going to be responsible within your current boundaries. Then you could give me a little bit of a longer kind of leash with it and then I would be responsible with that. Then I just continued that and it continued to kind of go that way. Yeah, I remember at the time thinking, okay, why does he keep coming home early? My first thought was he's just being manipulative, but I think it was really smart because he was demonstrating and this is what he's, when Casey used to do school assemblies was, hey kids, if you learn how to control yourself, then your parents won't have to. With your strong will, kids, to me, that gave Casey a lot of ownership to know my actions directly impact the reward I got, which was a later curfew. You did that one really well. Yeah, I think that was that. Taking an interest in my interests, even though they were very different from your own, I was super into cars as a teenager and you would take me to

5:21the car dealerships. We would test drive cars. We would just look at cool cars, go to car shows, all that kind of stuff. I knew you didn't like it and I knew you weren't into cars. There was a bit of sacrifice there that I noticed on your part. The other thing with that was that there wasn't really an agenda. It was just time for us to hang out and explore and chat about whatever was on our minds without it being like, hey, I'm taking you out and I'm going to teach you a lesson every single time. That was huge. Acknowledging that I didn't need to do my best at absolutely everything, I think it's kind of discouraging as a kid when you feel like, okay, well maybe I'm not good at math and I don't like math, but my parents want me to do my absolute best in every single thing. Just acknowledging like, okay, hey, you're really good at X, Y and Z. You don't love math. You're not great at math. You can do what you need to do to get by and work harder on the things that you are going to love and use

6:26in your life. Just acknowledging that not everything is the most important thing in the world. I asked you a quick question. Did you realize that at the time or do you realize that more now that that was a good choice because then we didn't spend endless time on things that you would probably never be good at? Do you remember at all? I don't remember, but I think a lot of this is hindsight. You don't even, I don't think I truly appreciated all of these things when I was younger. I'm noticing it now, what I'm thankful for, that you all did as parents. That's okay. Good. Then I think you were really good about getting me involved in things that I loved doing. I played hockey and then ended up starting to officiate ice hockey. You got me internships with minor league hockey teams where I had responsibilities and I was accountable to other adults and I think that taught me a ton and it also gave me my own space outside of the home.

7:34I was accountable to other adults. I was getting feedback from other adults, both positive and negative. I knew it was more neutral than your, it was better than your feedback. That was huge. I learned a lot of other things from that. You had mentioned early on when I started officiating ice hockey. Get up early, I'll take you, get up early and take the games that no one else wants to officiate. The 6am games in the middle of winter when it's cold. Then if you do that, you'll have a reward later on. You're going to get to work whatever game you want. That was really true. I ended up having a lot of freedom over my schedule because of that and got a lot of responsibility. From that, I got a lot of affirmation that I was doing well and learned that I was actually decent at memorizing information. That's good insight. Here's another question. By the way, thank you for

8:35all of you who email Casey with questions. At what age did you become aware of your personality, if you're strong will, how did you experience yourself and whatever chaos you lived as a young child as far as back as far back as you can remember and then kind of onward? Yeah, I think the first experience was with a kindergarten teacher. She gave us an assignment to like, there was like a sheet of paper with a drawing on it and then our job was to like color within lines. I flipped it over and I made my own drawing on the other side on the blank side of the piece of paper. She held up my drawing in front of the whole class and said it was an example of not to do and that's probably when I began to push back and be like intentionally provocative. I mean, it was embarrassing to have the project held up in front of the entire class and then like, why is this an example of what not to do? And it's kind of amazing how some of these like early experiences lead you into believing that the school doesn't care about creativity or

9:42that no one does and they just want you to follow directions and then you just are pushing back on that. Yeah, and that was like, and that was in kindergarten. It's 27 years ago and it's still visceral. If I asked, I know her name. We won't go there. We won't go there. Okay, how, this is really good. How should parents handle it when their child makes a choice they strongly disagree with? Okay. I think when they make a choice, you strongly disagree with. The goal is is usually to protect the relationship without pretending you approve of the decision. Hold on, it's going to happen a lot. Can I say that again? Because I thought that was super insightful. The goal is to protect the relationship without pretending you approve of the decision. I thought that was really good insight. Okay, so how do you do that? Good question. And I think like how much control a parent is going to like take over the situation depends on how old the child is and like what does the choice involve genuine danger?

10:46Or is it just something that you kind of like you disagree with and you don't see the same way? Like me going to drink and drive. Like is that like, you know, prom? Do you remember that? Yeah. You do remember that. Tell me about that. Tell me. I did tell you about that. We'll get to that later. No, but like you're going to have more control when it's, you know, something more serious. So, but as kind of generally I'd say number one, I'd listen before you react. Ask what led them to the decision that they made and try to understand what they value fear or they're hoping to gain from their decision. I think when they feel understood, it makes it more likely that they'll listen to you in return rather than just if you're reacting right away. Two, I'd try to separate the disagreement from rejection. Rejection. Like saying, I don't agree with your choice, but I love you and I want us to be able to talk. I'm going to talk. I'm going to

11:48work through this with you so that they're not taking it kind of as a personal rejection. Explaining your concerns clearly and specifically, focus on realistic and likely consequences of their actions rather than kind of like character judgments. Like you're always irresponsible or like you're doing this to ask. Match your response to the level of risk, you know, with a young kid, parents need to set firm limits around safety, health, if it's school attendance or, you know, other more serious stuff, then you're probably going to have to take more control with an older child, with a teenager or an adult child, then you're going to have to allow for more autonomy, even if you think the decisions are mistake. I like natural consequences a lot. So let like the

12:48reasonable natural consequences of their actions teach them instead of like you don't have to rescue your kid from an uncomfortable result if they make a choice. Good to do so. And then I think just like keeping the door open, a kid who knows they can come back without hearing, I told you so. Like this is the big one because your kids are going to make mistakes. We can go back to the prom story now. What's the promise? Um, which is I did whatever teenager does and I went to prom and I got hammered and you know, I felt like I could come home and tell my parents because they had created an environment in which I knew I would have consequences. But I also know I could tell them what I did without them overreacting and it turning into a whole like character battle. Right. It's not makes sense. Yes. And what did you learn from that? I mean, I learned about hangover. So I learned about the police showed up. So that was cool.

13:51I guess there was no way of avoiding telling my parents when the police showed up. But yeah, you are honest. You aren't honest. No, I was honest about it. But that was partially because you created an environment in which I could be honest about it. Um, so um, but but what were no, I would do it. We're arguing over there's a point here that I saw on his notes that he skipped and I think it's really important to say. Yes. So if you won't do it, okay, no, I'll do it. Um, avoid using love, money, silence and humiliation as punishment for an ordinary disagreement. Um, it what what did you find helpful about that? I think it's in the experience like I hike with Casey and his friends and I hear their stories of how that is used. I mean, my dad used that on us. Like he held money over us. So is that hard for people to do with me? No, because he

14:52was kind of an a-hole. I mean, you know what I mean? Like that wasn't like I like you should know not to do that. But you hear people still doing that of like we heard that major. Yeah, I'm not by not listening to the podcast though. Yeah. Yeah. I hope so. But yeah, I just thought it was important because that can sneak in that resentment as a parent of like, whoa, yeah. Well, if you're going a lot of people do it in belief systems, whether it's kind of like with your religious beliefs and it gets so entangled, I'll just share this quickly. Casey struggled a lot with the way we were kind of raising him. And that's actually led us to change a lot of our beliefs. But we had these really open discussions about it. And it actually helped all of us. So I just I guess I affirm your point of having open honest discussions without manipulation. Yeah, that's huge. And I think if the it's a like going back to that what kind of issue it is. If it's an issue

15:52about like values career relationships, lifestyle, then I'd say preserving the connection and respecting their autonomy matters more than winning the argument. Okay. Good. So how can parents kind of thread that needle of having the difficult discussion without shutting everything down or making the child feel like they're a horrible kid? Yeah. I think respect is the basic part. So it's something like I respect that this is your decision. I disagree with your decision. And I want you to understand why I disagree with your decision. But whatever happens, I want us to keep talking. And I want to understand why you're making this decision and make a genuine effort to understand why they are making the decision they're making. So be curious without the only intention being like I need to change your mind because that opens up everything. Okay, this is kind of related. What causes kids to lie and avoid talking to their parents? We're at the grocery store the other day and a nice young couple

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20:05always say that the control and strict rules breed rebellion and deceit. And I tend to agree with that. This is a fantastic piggyback on the last question, so a few other kind of thoughts on this. Overreacting or reacting disproportionately to the problem at hand, like that's a huge one. Punishing your kids for telling the truth. I think this happens pretty often. We got an email about it yesterday where a kid, there was a situation where the child knew that they made a mistake. And they were honest and they went to the parents and told the parents about the mistake. And then it's still like, let's not take them to the concert that we're going to as a family this weekend. Like there can still be a consequence, obviously, but you want to foster an environment where your kids feel like they're doing the exact thing you want them to do. They're telling you when they messed up and they're telling you the truth. So in that case, I'm the kid. I'm like, I'm not telling

21:08you the truth again because I just lost the concert for kind of doing the right win as a kid. You probably understand there's going to be some sort of consequence, but like you don't you want to be careful not to punish the behavior that you want to see. Yeah, so I was good. I like that's why we talk about like kind of practicing kid practices coming and saying, Mom, that I didn't do my homework. I lied about that. And then the parents practice not reacting and over reacting to it. So that there's a baseline level for me at least, which is kids are supposed to make mistakes and mess up. So I'm not shocked by it. Yeah. And you want them to trust you. They want you want them to be able to come to you and they learn this when they're young, but like you want them to be able to come to you and their teenagers and they do things like go to prom and drink. Like if they can't trust you with small things, then they're not going to trust you with big fangs. It's the same with us being more kids being more responsible. I think the feeling that it's never, ever, ever good

22:12enough for you as parents like that's huge. Feeling like our parents don't really listen to understand like they're listening just so that they can prove their point and invalidate whatever we're thinking or feeling. That's huge. And then I think one of the most effective things parents can do is make honesty safer than dishonesty. So it doesn't mean eliminating consequences, but you're responding to difficult truths with enough calm that the child thinks, okay, I may get in trouble. There's going to be a consequence, but I can still tell my parents what happened. And then I think like when a child does open up listening first, often matters more than immediately correcting them. A response like thanks for telling me, help me understand what happened. Kind of helps preserve honesty while allowing the parent to address the behavior afterwards if that makes sense. Gotcha. I actually have a question for you. If it's okay. Does not how this works,

23:18but go ahead. What did you worry about when I was a kid that turned out not to be a huge deal? Like, like I get, we get a lot of questions from parents who are like, okay, well, my kid is doing this and I'm worried about how that's going to impact him when he's 25. Like, what did you worry about with me when I was a teenager or younger that turned out not to be a big deal? If I'm being honest, just about everything and what I didn't realize then was it's just our parental anxiety. You see your child doing something at age three, like preschool. Uh oh, he can't sit still. He talks back. He walks around. He's not following directions. And then as a good parent, you're like, I'm trying to raise a child who can follow directions and be successful in life. And then you just project out into the future or, you know, we talk all the time about middle school kids. Middle school kids, it's a hibernation phase. They're not always that motivated. And so you think, oh, are they ever going to be self-motivated? What's going to happen to my child? But that's hopefully what I bring

24:24because I'm older now is to be able to help parents know like you don't have to stress over everything. Focus more on yourself and changing and modeling things than worrying about what your kids are doing. So a lot of it you, you, if we went back and looked at your report cards of what the school and teachers were saying about you and compare that to you and your adult life, it would be unrecognizable. So you can chill. Okay, here's a good question. Kind of related that. If you felt labeled or grotes feeling like the bad kid or the difficult kid and you're now say a little bit older, is there something a parent could do to change or fix that feeling? If the parent feels partly response block, I'll just rephrase. Many of our kids don't feel like the good kid they struggle. So what could parents do now? Yeah, I wouldn't expect one apology to suddenly erase like years of feeling like I'm the difficult kid and I'm always in trouble. If that's how you see yourself,

25:28then it takes more time to believe that your parents or your other adults see you differently. The first thing I would personally want is for my parents to actually own it. Not like, oh, I'm really sorry, you felt that way. More of a, I think we sometimes treated you like you were the problem instead of recognizing that you were a kid who was struggling, who was wired differently, who was strong willed, whatever it was. And I'm sorry about that. And I think that affected the way you saw yourself. I think a statement like that could be hugely helpful. I also, I wouldn't make the child take care of the parent's feelings. Don't immediately ask, do you forgive me? Like, they're going to need some time to process this. So like, let them be upset, let them be angry. Let them say, yeah, you did make me feel that way. You asked them to be honest. So don't punish them emotionally when they are. Another huge thing is to start noticing them differently. Like, if all of

26:33their life, all they've heard is like you're irresponsible, you're difficult, you're lazy, you're argumentative, then begin pointing out the other side of those traits. You're really good at thinking for yourself, you're persistent. I love that you question things. You handled that really well. Like pay attention. I think my dad talks about it a lot. Like, give affirmation for the things that your kids are doing well and focus on that. And make sure it feels genuine. I think I think parents can say like, hey, I'm trying, like you can be honest. I'm trying to change the way I relate to you. If I fall back into treating you like the same difficult 10-year-old, then call me out on it and give them a way to do that appropriately so that they're not like, yeah, I think you can imagine what they would say. I think if they're in their teenage years, they're probably also forming an identity that's completely separate from their parents. So your parent doesn't have complete control over whether you continue seeing yourself as like the bad kid, but you as the parent can stop

27:38reinforcing that. Like, acknowledge the part that you played in creating that, but start building a different relationship. And I think if the relationship is super contentious, I really like written notes as a form of communication. It takes some of that pressure away from the kid to respond immediately. It allows processing time and it takes it, it makes it just like less awkward. I think communicating with teenagers notes can be super effective in general, because it's like, hey, I have some thoughts on this. We let you check it later. Yeah, we would text sometimes because now there's not the face to face thing. I think from not that you asked me, but from the parents perspective, it's just that shift in thinking of just being all anxious and saying, okay, I watch my child do that. Begin looking deeper underneath the surface of like, I use a lot, but like the arguing and your kids being a little attorney, well, in order to argue well, you have

28:41to, you have to listen to your parent what they're saying. You then have to process it. You have to develop another line of thinking. You have to be persuasive and persistent. It doesn't mean you let kids get away with things, but just begin slow down and watch what they're doing, how they're building with their legos and saying, wow, you put a lot of time and effort into that when it didn't go well and you had to redo your whole structure. Man, you problem solved. You thought about it a different way. I would spend a lot more time on that. That's kind of related to what we talk about, giving kids a life skills report card instead of just their grade from school is super impactful. I don't know if you agree. Okay. What is your best advice for parents of a younger strong will child? Don't make it your mission to break your child's will. We hear that a lot. I think, A, it's not going to work. B, someday it's a, it is a gift later on. Like it helps with

29:44resisting peer pressure, helps people stand up for others, solving problems. So the goal isn't to take away that strength of them to break their will. The goal is just to teach them how to combine that with wisdom and self control and impulse control and respect. So I think strong willed kids also often kind of pull adults into power struggles. Some of it's intentional because it's enjoyable, it's stimulating. But like they argue, resist and delay and they always want to push the boundaries. And I think a lot of parents can learn from that. So I would say also like make it your mission to like learn something from your kids. And that I, what is there something that you learned from not to put you on the spot, but you're good at being put on the spot. So is there something you learned from me? Yeah. I think a lot of, I think the way that you saw the world, I probably say three things, you question things that I wasn't comfortable questioning because of my background,

30:51because of the way I grew up, I was never allowed to do that with my dad. So you doing that actually in a weird way, it felt like it gave me permission to do it when I finally understood you weren't just being a jerk on purpose. I think that's one thing. I think, you know, this may not be related, but I've learned from watching, look, even your personality, Casey's a lot more direct. And when he was young, I just interpreted that as, oh, you're being disrespectful. You shouldn't talk to me like that. And I finally realized, this is just a way he communicates. And that was more of my issue. And I think probably the one thing I've learned is that it's not really about you. It was really about me and my own hangups, my own anxiety and control issues. And one final thing is, I've learned from you. We've had, and I've shared this a little that role reversal. When you were a kid, I helped you with anxiety, but I can't tell you how many times I like certain hikes. When Casey's the one

31:52who's actually speaking directly to me, helping me with my own anxiety, which is kind of cool when they're older, you don't want your seven-year-old's doing that for you, but still kind of cool. So rapid fire question. Can we do one or two of those? Yeah, let's do it. Advice on listening. It's advice or listening. Okay. Advice. So one thing I've learned. See, did you just hear that? He wasn't like, hey, dad, I think you misread that because you're older and maybe you should have stronger reading glasses. He was like, no, it's advice. I think it was time for the prescription reading glasses. I know that their cheaper ones are nice, but I think like, I'll help you buy them if you can afford them. Okay, thank you, Casey. The six back for five dollars from Amazon. I didn't understand. You wrote this. You didn't read it the right way. So is it giving advice or is it more important to listen? And I was going to say both, but in the right way. Oftentimes,

32:58it's not the advice itself. It's how it's presented or in many cases, it's kind of forced. So instead of with advice, instead of shoving it down, your kids throw out, maybe say like, I have some thoughts on that. If you're interested in what my thoughts, I'm going to be outside, walking the dog. I'm going to be doing whatever you may also notice that other adults give your kids the same advice and your kids think it's awesome. But when you share it, it kind of sounds wait, does that work with spouses, too? Does that well? Yeah. So like outsourcing the advice to other adults, I think like that mission and mentor thing that my dad talks about a lot, having other adults who can provide that for your kids is huge. But I would say listening is kind of the foundation of everything because if your kids don't feel like you actually understand them, then there's no way they're listening to your advice. So it's like last episode, I think we had one on like consequences and something else and it's like you can't have consequences if you

34:01don't have the base respect. Yeah, you got on that. So you have to have hope. Okay, final one, one phrase, kids need to hear more often. Probably just like good job. I like the way you handle that. And then just why I just like leave planting a lot of little seeds. Yeah. Or hey, Casey, really good job on this second episode. If you have other questions for Casey, please email him at Casey at celebratecom.com. If you need help with anything, you're going to interact with Casey. If you need help financially with any of the programs, whatever it is. But thank you for listening to the podcast. Thanks for sharing it. Ask you to it helps us a lot if you subscribe to the podcast and then you won't miss future episodes, but love you all, respect you all. And I'm talking to you next time. Bye bye.