Raging Bull with David Krumholtz

0:00Plank Jack with Britain and David Plank Jack with Britain and David Don't know what to say or to express All you need to know is that the end of the show is Plank Jack for all of them Go get them champ on the podcast on the podcast, on the podcast on the podcast on the podcast on the podcast on the podcast on the podcast down the podcast on the podcast on the podcast on the podcast on the podcast buying What the hell did with this I love that. Okay no no I'm very happy the other one I was thinking about doing is if you podcast you're podcast if you lose you still podcast there's no way you can lose what's the word there uh, when? If you win, you win. If you lose, you win, you still win. There's no way you can lose. Right. Yeah. I liked what you did. I thought you, I thought that was great. Thank you. And for the listener at home, my handwork was perfect.

1:02Oh, yeah. My form was immaculate. You're not a amateur boxer. Thank you. Thank you for asking. Uh, box. I trained with a boxer. Yeah. Like sort of a workout thing, right? And then I pinched both nerves, one, one nerve in each shoulder. Perfect. Went to a chiropractor and he fixed me, but I, part of him fixing me meant I wound up with a, an elbow that locks up for the rest of my life. What age was this 30, 31? Okay. Yeah. So I fixed one thing and by breaking another thing. Yes. Yeah. Uh, my, my father made me, uh, train and boxing to toughen me up when I was upper single digits and I hated it. And your weight was also upper, upper single digits at that time, right? My weight was a lower single digits. Oh, my, I could not crack 100 pounds. Well, single digits would be one pound slower single digits. I'm going to ask you trained and did the person hit back? No, it was all kind of sparring, but it was at like a real boxing

2:02drum and I father made you do it. Yes. My father used to, my father was trying to talk to you. I talked about before a degenerate gambling addict who's favorite bar was Jimmy's corner. Are you familiar with Jimmy's corner? Jimmy's gone over. Yes. No, I'm not. But 44th Street owns, it was owned. He's sadly passed away, but Jimmy Glenn, who was a former boxing corner man. Mm hmm. And so he had a Jimmy Glenn, the owner of this bar, who was an old former boxer. And that's just when you're trying to get your kid a little bit of, you know, TLC. What you want to do is ask your favorite bartender for help, right? This is like me at nine. Oh my god. And my brother was so jealous and my brother was a very physically rambunctious child who would sometimes attack other kids, just kind of like randomly hit so much excess energy. He'd start wailing on them and he wanted to box and my parents were like, this is a terrible idea. And it was like a year and a half, two years maybe of me begging my parents to let me stop and my brother begging to let him start.

3:03Wow. And finally, the switchover happened and the second my brother boxed, he completely balanced out. It like solved him. And he had a golden gloves. He was a licensed fighter. He almost went pro as like a featherweight. But the two years that you boxed, you came away feeling like an inferior physical specimen. Crummy, you get me. I do. You get it hard. Yeah. Yes, I hated it. It was an extreme type of Napoleon complex prior to which I did. This it only made it correct. infinitely worse, especially because my brother's also a little guy. I don't got no, no giant brother. It's why when I shake your hand, you really squeezed the shit out of my hands. I squeezed really hard and I locked in on your eyes. By the way, I do the same thing, but you're squeezed. You got to do it. It's easier than not. Yes. And we did a hug. I did a, I did a full body squeeze. I pinched those nerves. I don't want to insult you, but I didn't feel that happened. I think this is a good energy for this episode though, because you know, we're talking about confrontational.

4:03And my brother and lady brother and lady, brother and lady. Right. Brotherly love. Sort of the thin line here between insecurity and, you know, manhood. I became his manager. I kiss my brother's wife on the mouth. This is what happened. Yeah. What you kiss on a mouthful? What you kiss on a mouthful? Yeah, what you mother sure is this? Is it the greatest repetition movie? Yes. I picked a quote that was obviously saying the same thing 87 times. But that's part of why I picked that. Well, it just feels like the way his brain has been smushed. Like he's got a cycle through phrases over and over to kind of like get to the phrase. Yeah. It's also part of the performance. Obviously all improvised, which is great. It's good. Good performance. Who's the lead guy in this? But obviously all improvised, but, but, you know, with improv, you know, this, that you feel there's that there's that. Oh, the joke didn't land. Let's try it again. Yes. Yes. And genuinely because of the chemistry between him and Pesci, yeah. Great stuff comes out of the repetition.

5:05Correct. Yeah. And, and looks, Chris, as he, I'd say master of repetition in general, he's good at the rhythmic repetition of dialogue. He's good at making conversation, feel. But I think you're right. I think the punch-drunk nature of this and how kind of like emotionally unavolved these guys are, means that he gets a lot more latitude to just like they can just repeat the same thing for five minutes straight and just escalate the intensity of it. I came away thinking how in the world could they have ever made this movie without Joe Pesci? And yet they just found him randomly. Yeah. They found him around it. So, so while, it's a team, you're watching this thing and goes, I bet I would have incredible chemistry with that actor. Yeah. And they meet and they have legendary, immediate chemistry that then they're thrusting on to film. Right. But carries through other films. You know how that is so strange. Yeah. That that, that, that De Niro Intuited that,

6:07especially he is the guy at this moment. He is like the new brand. Pro. Right. He's already gotten one Oscar. He's done taxi driver. Yes. Mean streets. Deer hunter. Deer hunter. And the Godfather too. Yes. So he is the guy. He's the guy. He's, it's undisputed. I confidence is through the world. He could get anyone to play his brother. Could get anyone to play his brother and steamroll them? Yes. And the movie's watchable. Yeah. And he goes, I'm going to let this little guy fucking shoot me out. Oh, it's amazing. Yeah. It's amazing. Joseph Pesci. Mm-hmm. Oscar nominee for this film. Sure, that little Joey Kinseng. I think that was the name of his album, wasn't it? Little Joe Shurkenseng. Little Joe Shurkenseng. That was his album. Yeah. Gryffin, what's this podcast? This podcast is blank check with Gryffin and David. I'm Gryffin. I'm David. I said I'm David. You kissed my wife. You kissed my wife? You kissed my wife? You kissed my wife on the Mount David? David's laughing. Sorry. Kiss my wife?

7:07You fight. I would just not want to hang out with Jake Lamont. I'll just say it. Yeah. I just don't think I'd find him very charming. Crummy, we just did New York, New York, which will have come out the week before this, right? Okay. Correct. Because last Waltz is in between last Waltz. That's right. Controversially we're doing on Patreon. I'm sorry. I don't know how many documentaries, but I made the argument that Jimmy Doyle is of all the Scorsese, Dinearo characters. That's the last one you want to date. Now watching this movie, I was questioning it. I was waiting. He's pretty tough. He's pretty tough. He's pretty tough. Riverpunk is not great. He's going to what he's, you know, he's going to annoy you to death. He's going to annoy you to death. Right. Yes. I mean, Lamata, though. Lamata, Lamata, there's some risk. There's some emotional hazard. Yeah. Yeah. He's a very tough customer. He is. No, but like we were kind of talking about how Jimmy is so uncharismatic on top of everything out. Like, you know, he's very, very tough to imagine why you'd be around him in any sense.

8:09But Lamata is similar, but I guess he has some swagger to him initially, but he sort of can like, you can see. And that's what's brilliant about this film. Yes. Is we're presenting an animal. Yes. We're telling people that he's an animal. And yet, a raging bull, if you want, a raging bull. And yet they find a genuine humanity in this guy. And there are, he has three kids. He has moments of being a peaceful to some extent person. He just wants to be a comedian. That's all he wants. You know, all this stuff. He's like Riverpunk in an incident. Yeah. That's such a ridiculously fine line to make work that only Deniro can do it. And what are you, what are you, what are you doing in that first screening of this film sitting in the audience? Yeah. How confused were you about what you were being asked based on your cinematic knowledge

9:14up until 1980, what you were being asked to feel as an audience member about this guy? Well, even that was Chris Azez reluctance to making the movie of like, who cares about this fucking guy? I don't want to spend time with this guy. Right. This guy's unpleasant. He's a bore. Yes. In both spellings. Sure. Right. Three spellings. Oh, boy. Sure. B-O-R-E-B-O-A-R. Yeah. Kind of. Yeah. Kind of. Yeah. He's got them all. It's an incredibly watchable film given how tough it is to watch. I guess is the way to, you know, that's the sort of squarespace. It's a timeless film that elevated the art, especially of the biopic specifically, which was not really a thing that much. And was a very limited thing. I think it was a very specific vein. It sort of creates the map for what a biopic in an ideal way would be. The modern bio. Right. Because there's obviously there's, there's the old boring Hollywood, like the story of

10:18Louis Pasteur. Right. Or what, you know, like that kind of thing. Right. Kind of the Yankees kind of stuff. Right. Yeah. I think it's important. This nice guy. That I say this at this moment, which is that it is truly an honor to talk about this film. Thank you so much for asking me to talk about this film because I, there's only a small handful of films that I bow to. This is one of them. Oh, yes. What else has always been? Oh God. Let's not start because we're going to get into territory where it's a big group. Oh, no, it's a small hand. What's in the hand? You know, there's a couple other Scorsese in here and a couple other, you know, there's some couple Spike Lee's and Spielberg's and Kubrick's and you know, that kind of thing. But I'm, this is one for the ages. It completely validates the entire art form of cinema. I mean, it really does. And all that, all the people that work to make great cinema happen. Yes. And it ends in such a meta way.

11:19It's, it's akin to what Tarantino later did in glorious bastards. Yes. Where the final line is, I believe this is my masterpiece. It essentially, you know, Scorsese does that in this film and says, this is my masterpiece. That's also him thinking it's the last movie he's ever going to make or certainly the last studio movie he's ever going to make. I think as much as he's calling a shot, it's because he thinks it's the last chance he has to call a shot. I should say this is a podcast about the film. Things directors who have massive successors on their curves. This is the compulsion. I must say the full thing. No, yeah, orientate people. I have to orientate people. This is many people's first episode. I'm sure directors who have massive success early on in their career, such as taxi driver and our giveaways series of blank checks make whatever crazy passion products they want. Sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce baby like New York, New York, which he is coming straight off of and is the biggest bounce of his career. This is a mini series on the films of Martin Scorsese. It is called podcast fellas.

12:19We are the titular podcast fellas. Today, we are talking Raging Bull with returning guests, the Raging Bull himself, David Crumboltz. No, that's the sound of me, Ray. Yeah. It's not. Not from the Bronx. You're from Queens, right? Yeah. So you could be the Queens Bull. You could be the Bronx Bull. I, yeah, I guess so. You know, I always, just because of the name, there's always a feminine. Sure. Yeah. So what's the feminine version of a bull? A cow? Cow. Yeah. Queens cow. Queens cow. You could be thinking of the alliteration too. What's an animal with a cue? Well, you're getting into tricky territory now, Ben. Yeah, that's tough. What animals do exist with cue? Cue. Cue. Queens quail. Queens quail. Queens quail. I like that. You're smiling. Yeah. What kind of noises do they make? Well, too many. Probably a little bit. All right. Some kind of... The Queens quail gets in the ring. Yeah. There's a lot of others. There's the quaka.

13:19Oh, yeah, the quaka. Which is kind of like a weird little like furry guy, little marsupial. Yeah, that's an animal. It's like on a mausoleum down under it. Have you been to Australia? I have. You made a movie or two and I feel like that. I made a movie last year that takes place in New Jersey and we shot it in Melbourne, Australia. That's Hollywood 3.0. Hey, crazy. Yeah, sure. What it is. We've coined Hollywood 3.0 today for it to describe just like the fucking nonsense that goes on day to day. Hollywood 3.0. What was the New Jersey movie? What the heck? It's a movie that's coming out on Christmas Day. Perfect. This year, Mr. Relevant. Oh, yet with the Superman of Fox. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. It's a good thing. It's testing off the charts. It is testing on a long time. It is actually. It is actually. It is actually. Yeah, John Tuggle story. I think we need more sports movies. I think it's a, it's a guy. I'm in for this. Absolutely. Jonathan Lee Levine directed. I do. I do. Absolutely beautiful. I hear it's like there's, it's a, it's a wonderful film going experience.

14:20I have truly heard this. We have friends who were at a cinema con where they showed off a large chunk of it and people were like elevating. Yeah. Yes. Yes. It's, it's, it's levitating. I think it's the darkest of the dark horses for Oscars. Well, well, well. They called him Mr. Relevant. My yet. Michael Shannon's in a right playing bill parcels. Michael Shannon is playing bill parcels. That is, that is casting. It makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Bill's. And I have a little sneaky funny good role in what do you, what do you play in it? No, I play, um, what the fuck up? So it's, it's, they have a blow my camera. It's about the New York Giants. New York Giants in 1983. They had an equipment manager who was with them for at least 30 years, I think, named Whitey. Yeah. Whitey. Good. And you know, for, I've the chance to play a Whitey for me. You need one finally in your, in your camp. Yeah. And so, uh, Whitey had retired and was kind of listless. They have this young player who gets diagnosed with, you know, questionably survivable cancer.

15:24Uh-huh. Is likely going to croak. It's awful. It's tragic. He's 21 or 22 years old. And, uh, they call, they decide the NFL and the Giants decide to do everything they possibly can to save this kid's life, to try and, uh, pay for it all. And they call Whitey and they go, what are you doing? And he's like, uh, missing, you know, I'm missing the, uh, the action of being part of the team. And how about you, will you drive this kid to all his appointments? So this older man who's retired becomes this kid's chauffeur and watches him slowly die. That's a good part. It's a good part. Um, I enjoyed myself. Bill Parcells, uh, you know, what they called him, um, Griff, Mr. Elephant. No, the big tuna. One of the, one of the great sports team names of all time. Why did he get that name? I'm not really sure where the name came from. Uh, famously, Bill, Bill Parcells looked a lot like my dad and people would mistake

16:25my dad for Bill Parcells. Who would see that looking at you? Who was very famous, like, you know, when I was a kid, like he was the coach of the Giants and then he was the, didn't he wasn't he the coach of the Jets for a minute? Like he was, yeah, he was a New York figure. This was my father, of course, New York in the 80s with Howie Mandel. Your father, your father looked like Howie Mandel. His father, you know, when he's dad had the curly hair and how he had the curly hair, I can see. We will post on a globe. We over the head, we will post on social media, the side by side of Howie Mandel and this era and my father, but people would kind of rage and bull style be like, Hey, Mandel, you big timing me. Wow. Oh, you think you're too good for your fans, man? That you know who my dad looked like. Who son of Sam, that's good. That's an uncle. That's an uncle. That's an uncle. That's an uncle. That's an uncle. That's an uncle. That's an uncle. That's an uncle. That's an uncle. That's an uncle. That's an uncle. That's an uncle. I think he had blue eyes and my dad had brown. I can think of one other. He didn't commit murder. I was there's that. That's the difference. I was talking to mailman was David Bergwood.

17:28I had to imagine. I can imagine this very good. I probably ate the letters, right? Hmm. I don't know if he was a paper eater. I have recurring dreams coincidentally, in which I'm pulling large pieces. I'm in public in a situation where I need to talk to people. Yeah. I'm pulling endless amounts of paper, chewed up paper out of my mouth. Oh, it's in there already. It's in there already. And I have to stop. And they're very vivid realistic dreams. I have to stop and pull paper out of in between my teeth, out of my throat. And then I looked up like what those mean. And I think they said something like, you know, obviously they're anxiety dreams. But yeah, something to the of like you have something you need to get off your chest. Something unspoken. Yeah. You need to read what's on the paper. That's the answer. That's how you resolve the chewed up, man. Yeah, it's all bits of paper. Unfold it. Piece it back together. Take a blow dryer. We're talking about mulch. We're talking about my exception.

18:31You know, that's it. You always write like that's it's like you always have to find like the weird papers. Oh, yeah. And that's like where the secret is. Right. And that's how you come up with a great idea to retire and let someone else do your work. You should text him every time you have a weird dream being like, hey, inception guy. Explain this dream. You do this. I don't have any way of contacting. Well, because he's never got to have phone. Yeah, he doesn't have a head. Well, I'd be on that. I don't think Chris would want to. Oh, you gave a phenomenal performance. And I don't think that matters to him or me, the honest. I just think it'll be funny if it's like when you know a doctor. Yeah. And you're like, hey, look at this mole. You know, like, hey, Chris, you didn't inception. Was this dream me anyway? People's weird dreams. Yeah. Uh, David Cromwell says here, David Cromwell says here. Oh, yeah. The last time you were on the show, we talked about Sensible and who is, you know, we're talking the other giants of this era. Well, you're getting where he's talking the other best actor. Yes.

19:31You know, he did Pacino's best actor trophy. And this is De Niro's best actor trophy. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I wouldn't call Pacino the only other giant. I think I think there's a triumvirate. You're right. The third. Often. Yeah. Was that era? Those are the three guys who were chasing those are the three. And they're, they're rewriting the rules of acting. Yes. And there are three guys who I feel like a generation prior Hollywood would have been like, well, you're not a movie star. Like, you don't have to look at the movie star. Right. They look like a butcher. Right. They are ethnic American. They're ethnic. They're small. They're kind of like they got their handsome, but they got kind of funny faces. Right. You know, they're not going to make those movies. Do they make? Well, maybe the graduate. Do they make a midnight cowboy raging bull and let's say, Sarpico today? Not really. Not really. No. No. Or god day. Yeah. They don't. Raging bull is the closest in that like Hollywood will still respond to as a boxing movie. Yeah. Right. And like a true story real person movie. What did it with Sarpico?

20:32I may be. I don't know. That feels like a TV show. It definitely is a TV show. The answer is that all three of those things would be TV shows now. You know, which is a thing. Yeah. I think there is sort of like a Mount Rushmore of the the male acting performances, the leading male performances that people like lose their minds over that are sort of held up as the highest right? Right. Right. That's a woman's number one. Sent to woman's number one. Sent to woman. Chris O'Donnell. Right. That's right. Yes. No, I think I think it's like it's raging bull. Sure. It's raging bull for sure. I think you combine the two Godfather, Pichino performances. Sure. Right. Or you could take either one. No, definitely not. Yes. Your way off. Really? Yeah, you're getting crazy. What do you think? Jimmy Stewart and so wonderful life for. Well, that's quite a good performance. Yeah. I think Denzel and Malcolm X is in it. Denzel, Malcolm X. Yes. Absolutely. Are we talking streetcar? Are we talking on the waterfront? For brand-o? I think you kind of get through. But I'm going to go.

21:32I think it's probably. I'm going to go. Mmm. God Almighty. I'm going to go Nicholson, Kuku's Nest. Jack is sort of outside, you know, late. Because he's not an ethnic American. He's straight down the middle. He's straight down the middle. No, yeah, that's true. What is, in fact, what is Jack Nicholson? Isn't he Irish? I don't know. Yeah, I would imagine. Yes. New Jersey's on. Mmm. But we're not here to talk about Jack Nicholson. We're not. No. But this is a German English and Welsh descent. They care. This is still a performance that people use as shorthand. Oh. 100%. I think his range of. I remember. Yes. You know, I saw this film when I was 21 for the first time. It changed everything for me because up until that point, I had only really wanted to do comedy, do comedy, done comedy. There was no, I, or, you know, cartoonish character shit. Suddenly, I watched this film and thought, I could do that.

22:33I don't know how. But if I just try, you want to do that. Like trying the goal history to do that. Yeah. If I could do 10% of the immersion and the intimacy and the intensity of what De Niro did in Raging Bull, I could do 10%. I would get dramatic jobs. I would get those jobs fascinating. It's just an outrageously monolithic performance. It's arguably the greatest lead performance ever. That is very arguable. Yeah. I think, I mean, no one's going to call you crazy for saying that. Certainly not. It's a reasonable opinion. I also think it's something where you, I have the experience of like, I watched this film. I was very struck by it as a young man or what, you know, like, obviously, it's a totemic film and that's a top. And then you started a featherweight. I've never been a featherweight. I'm sorry. I hit this height when I was 13. I've always been a big boy.

23:34Yeah. Um, and then you, you know, you have a few years from it. You're like, oh, but isn't that it's just him screaming and yelling. Isn't it? Then you watch the movie again. You're like, I forgot how good this movie. Look at how good like, and I forgot how it's not whatever the stereotype is. I think introsis the word. The top. That's the whole, that's the magic factor. It's the volcanic stuff. You're, you know, let me bring my, let me bring my bantam weight perspective to this. Perfect. God damn it. The sound editing in this film is a new road map suddenly for all sound editing going forward. The intimacy of the sound of that film, there is no film that sounds like Raging Bull to this day. There are attempts, but there. So you are, as an audience member, being whispered to, you're being shouted at. They're speaking to your soul. It's, it, it brilliant sound editing.

24:37Do you know the thing that so much of it, by the way, is ADR clearly, yes, but that Marty drove everyone crazy because he insisted that every punch, every flashball be a unique sound that they not repeat any specific sounds. But a lot of it's like fully work and it's over at the top in a certain way. And the context, you know, when he's in Miami with at his house and he asks the photographer to take a picture, that take a picture for us for us, get any of sweetheart. And they surround him. And the moment the first flash goes off, you hear one of his children scream. Yeah. You're, oh my God. Just whatever standard film had come to just Scorsese manipulating the shit out of what was before to create something incredibly profound and new. I'm going to hold. I'm going to go even one higher than you. I think this movie is very well directed. When I was watching it, I said, who is the Scorsese kid?

25:39Yes. And Chapman. Chap me. Yes. There's not a frame in this movie that isn't a painting. It didn't win the Oscar, which it's, you know, the Oscars are not the end of the world, but it's shocking. Yeah, for cinematography. What did test the Polansky film, which I'm sure Jeffrey Onesworth, like I'm sure had gorgeous vistas of the mores, right? You know, like I'm sure that is a, my dim memory, a pretty movie. Sure. But this is one of those things where one, you can show five seconds of raging bull in some clip package. Yeah. As you see all the time in these kind of, De Niro, or you know, you'll see him roll down to the award shows are on TV. And you're just yet lean forward and any shot. I not believe how this movie and insert shot would get that response. And why black and white? Do we have theories? Oh, we can talk about it. I'm sure that'll be in the research, because I think there was a lot of reasons for the black and white. And just no one's made a sports movie.

26:39Look this guy. Which reductive to call the sports movie. But no one's made like boxing look like this ever again. And just the, with the smoke and the, you know, just that your eye comes in there. Well, yeah, and theater of it ended that sort of just the slaughterhouse of it. Well, you're going to say, no, the contrast of how beautifully lit. Almost theatrically lit. The boxing matches are with the crudeness of how the rest of it is. The natural light through, through it all. It's just, well, the key to this movie is, you know, Marty said, I don't want to, do this. I don't get this. And Danero kept on insisting. And we'll get into this in depth. But then he finally figured out he was like, oh, boxing's a metaphor. Boxing doesn't matter. I can't think of this as a boxing movie. It's about getting in the ring. It's about whatever that thing is in your life. And let's face it, this score says he doesn't need to be directed with. But this is the movie where he lets Danero sort of direct their collabroid.

27:41They're right. Right now. This is a 50 50 job. Yes. In fact, I can open the door. The trust is through the roof. What is required of Danero? See, I'm now going to watch, behold, as I marry this into a discussion about AI. Okay. Let's do it. What's required I could have done this movie. We agree. What's required of Danero is this genuine raw soul searching, sort of an access that he is displaying to his own emotional nuance, the complicated levels of who Danero is as a person, who an actor should be as a person, right? Someone who emulates humanity in nuanced fashion that arguably no actor before after had. And to give of that, to bear himself raw, he had to have trained mentally for this, not just physically, right? You know that this is all stuff you know as an audience member.

28:42And two different physical states. And two different physical states. One misshapen. Yes. Which is also two different mental states married to those. Right. And the confidence, the nearest confidence, who's 36 at this point when he makes this movie, that's disgusting. He's playing a 19 year old though. Yes. Right. Yeah. It's through the roof and the uniqueness of Danero that he has to face and live with. The burden of Danero's uniqueness applied to the uniqueness of Jake Lamar. And there is no way, and you know this watching it, there is no way that Danero is not in some sort of existential pain playing this character. Yes. And also there's something clearly that drew him to it. Correct. That he needed to experience. Because this role is a sacrifice and a half that he's and he's giving. It's giving. It's constantly giving.

29:42Now, you have to be human to understand the true depth of not only the performance but of the film. You have to be, right? And here's where I married into AI. Let's do it. Who on, would you, you don't want to watch an AI basketball game to you? Why would anyone? Why do we watch sports? To it. Right. Yeah. A lot of sports because it's human beings which we are doing what we can't do. Okay. You cannot expect AI to make an impact with audiences in a way that film can film. I mean, real, I should say real people can't humans can on film. Because the audience is human. Everybody's talking about when they have these arguments about AI, they go, you know, well, what's the difference between a human actor and an AI actor and an AI will learn from what humans do? Everyone discounts the audience. The audience is human. It can only empathize with humanity.

30:44Well, and that's the challenge of raging bull is like, it's not like I want you to understand that Jake Lamatta is a good guy or even that Jake Lamatta is sympathetic in a way of like, you know, here's why he behaved this way. It's not a like, don't you understand? Jake Lamatta just had it. And that's why he was such a piece of shit. It's not that it's more just you need to look at this darkness and this, you know, this exists. Right. And on, right, and understand the nightmare of the human spectrum that he was on and that there's something to relate to. Which is true taxidriver too. That makes it all the more compelling. Like, you know, that you're like, there's something to relate to even though he's a fairly despicable person pretty much all the time. And also that there's like a sacrifice here, not just in the characters, but in the making of this movie. That is a thing that AI can ever experience. I mean, this is the conversation right now. I just think it's like, it was such a good fucking knockout punch is just like everyone flipping their shit over the Odyssey.

31:45Everyone circles back to the same thing, which is like, this looked really difficult to make. This was not easy. And I'm appreciating the sacrifice and the effort of this. And I want to see it on the biggest screen. And it's like, that's a fucking knockout punch. The people so much, they don't want to pay for it. It's not just AI. It's also just, you know, the years we went through people being like, no, once the movie experienced anymore, you know, like that that's being refuted is is is lovely. You know, Scorsese is not an insular filmmaker. Right. His reference. So many, you know, because, well, because he himself is a cinema expert. Right. But so many filmmakers make movies, quote unquote, they say this for themselves. And you've got to make the movie for yourself. Be happy with it. And then the audience will love it. No, Scorsese goes, I'm the audience for my own film. I am all kinds of versions of that audience. I am the high flutant high brow, area, tight guy sitting in the back row.

32:46And I'm also the kid in the front row. Right. And what can satisfy everyone? And he's anticipating how the audience will feel. And he's felt literally framing shots and directing scenes from that perspective. The greatest trick that Scorsese pulls in this film is challenging the audience. Like what in the world are they supposed to be feeling? Yeah. You know, taxi driver is a straight drama. Yeah. Right. It's a brutal comedy. It's a funny tragedy. Sure. It's so many things in stark contrast. It's comedy, love, family, bonds, violence, paranoia, sympathy, rage, disgust, sorrow, horror, you know, peace, triumph, success, ego, tranquility, the burden of ambition, you know. And ultimately, it's the story. It's exactly what it should be, which is the story of one life to tell a story about

33:49the pugilistic nature of all lives and all life. And just it's what a what an undertaking. And if he fucks it up and he didn't even think he should make the movie. Yes. And if he fucks this up, people are come out of the theater going that director is a psychotic person. And his career is like you're close to it because of career already in a little bit of trouble. Like, right. You know, why do you do that? I think the fact that he doesn't really care about sports, which he's very upfront about matters a lot in the movie too, because I like sports movie. Like I like a schematic sports movie just fine. Like I enjoy an underdog story. I enjoy this shit. But you know, so many sports movies lock into like, okay, well, we need to see where he initially succeeded. And then he was brought low with this battle. And like his biggest triumph in this movie in the ring is like grinning like a freak at Sugar Ray Robinson. He didn't knock me down. Yeah. Sugar Ray Robinson's just like, what's okay? You know, like, win.

34:50Right. And it's just like literally lost. He's so separated from whatever the point of boxing is. I mean, that's, you know, moment in life. And like at no point is there like the scene where someone's like, you did it. Here's the belt. Like, you know, like the arc of his career is this sort of like just this dim noise in the movie at best. Well, I also think there's a core thing. He buys a building at one point. Yeah. And then like from fights and he's like, hmm, hmm. And you're like, Jesus, he's a fucking landlord like this guy. Uh, can't be served a stake without having a panic attack. I also, I think the core thing this movie is about in a lot of ways is like the thing you're great at being a detriment to every other aspect of your life. Mm hmm. Everything that makes him a good boxer. Well, if you're ego, it's also about ego danger. Yes. If you don't have emotional intelligence. Correct. If you're not in conversation with yourself. Yeah. Because he's a fighter. Yes. That's a great fighter. Right. Who is able to piece together a pretty normal life on paper on paper.

35:54He's got the kids. He's got the family. Yeah. That's a big thing. But he becomes a clown. Yes. He becomes more than just an actual comedian slash clown. His life is a clownish. Yes. Yes. His whole life. Yeah. David. Yes. I'm ready to get my nutrition into gear. And you know what I'm going to thank the fine folks at Hule. Hule! Because Hule is a complete food, not a supplement. You can have Hule instead of a meal. There's a black edition powder. Yes. 40 grams of protein. You just mix it with water and milk in about 30 seconds. Complete meal. And instead of food, it's not a shake on top of food. It's got 27 of essential vitamins and minerals, no artificial sweeteners, colors or flavors. Or there's that RTD bottle. That's what I have. That's what I have. You know what it stands for? Ready to drink? Correct. Okay. Make healthy eating simple.

36:55Get Hule today with my exclusive offer of 15% off online with my code check at hule.com slash check. That's h-u-e-l.com slash check. New customers only. Thank you to Hule for partnering and supporting our show. I'm going to open the dossier to tell you some stuff about this. Can I just ask you one quick question before you open it? Did you fuck my wife? Yes. Thank you. Okay. I appreciate that. That's the answer. I fucked your wife. I fucked your brother. I fucked you up. Whatever. We're doing a lot of stuff. We've addressed this to some extent on prior episode on top of the last Waltz in New York, New York. He even worked on a Broadway show called The Act with Eliza Monelli who he was having and affair with at the time. He had no idea what he was doing. He was sort of soft fired. More kind of like he agreed to step aside and let an experienced Broadway hand come in

37:57to kind of quote unquote fix things. He was also having a very sexually charged affair with cocaine, the drug. He was doing a lot of drugs. In 1977, he goes to the Telluride Film Festival, which is very early to present an award to Michael Powell, one of his heroes, the great British director. And Michael Powell says to him, like, my dear boy, what are you doing here? Aren't you working on a play? And score says he's like, that's when I realized like I was not cut out for theater. I didn't understand play. You know, at this point, he wants to make gangs of New York. That's going to take him a second. A little bit. He makes American boy, which we discussed in our Scorsese short episode. It's fascinating. The profile of Stephen Prince. Have you ever seen that? Crowned Hill. You would be intrigued by it. You would be very intrigued by it. Okay. It's just him interviewing a guy who's got insane stories. And the adrenaline shot back from the dead from Pulp Fiction is stolen from that movie. That is true. That's a story he tells. Yes. Wow. And he's got Raging Bull, which is a movie he doesn't want to do.

39:01But De Niro has basically been trying to get him to do since 1974. He came to him on the set of Alice doesn't live here anymore and said, read this book by Jake Lamatta. I've like optioned it. There's some good scenes. He's an interesting character. De Niro, who is obviously a tough interview in that when you ask him like, why did you do Raging Bull? He's like, I don't know. It's interesting. You know, like he's just, but he says like, I like the book because I thought it had some good scenes to repeat this. A good scene is something that you think has a lot of dramatic possibilities in irony and humor and something that people can relate to. It's a very simple and bland statement, but you can imagine I guess De Niro just reading the book and being like, well, this scenario is something I can play out in my head as something that would be very dramatically compelling. And even talking back to the sort of point of getting in this character's head and this sort of spiritual connection he was feeling, he like admits when he reads it, the book is poorly written. Yes. De Niro admits this book is bad, but Scorsese does not like the book.

40:03It's like a portal into this guy's brain. Like even I think the failings of the writing are telling him something as an actor that someone's going to have to process dramatically into something that works as a story, but he's seen the scenes and he's seen the way this guy's brain works. De Niro Robert. Robert De Niro. Is the Joe Demaggio of acting? Please explain. I mean, Joe Demaggio had an amazing reputation for doing incredible things on the field, athletic things, but making them look easy. Sure. So the point is De Niro is simple. He is very simple, deliberate. Yeah. I don't think there are any firm choices in his style. I think he goes, he lives in the moment and his and accesses whatever is necessary to tell the story. If any strategy goes into that, I'm sure there's some. And of course, extreme emotional intellect, extreme, but it's natural.

41:03There's a nature to De Niro that acting wasn't allowed to have, especially on film up until really until he came on the scene. You weren't and maybe Brando, you could argue, but even Brando is a little like, you know, making deliberate choices and specifying. And you could almost say that Brando sort of had to fit the mold because he would have been so far ahead of his time that no one would have understood him. He wouldn't have worked. He needs to have one foot in the style of film at the time. But Brando now has laid the groundwork for De Niro to be as naturally simplistic, but also acrobatic as any actor had ever been. And I don't think there's been an actor since very few. It's hard to. People maybe who have gotten into that realm in a singular performance or in a brief period. I don't think there's someone who has a body of work that embodies what you're saying in the same way.

42:03I also think that he has always been so mysterious about his process for how much this is known as the great sacrifice movie and the physical transformation movie and all of that. The built-in inherent mystique of De Niro. Right. That he's this shapeshifting guy who then he avoids interviews. He doesn't want to talk about what acting is. He has a reputation for being very quiet on set and not saying much being a quiet person. Yes. And compare this to spooky, but she know what Hoffman who are incredible. But we know the legends, right, that they're what they went through and what they were thinking and how they strategize their roles. Like here he is and he's reading this book and he goes like, Hey, Marty, this is bad. We should make this movie. You're like, why? So he's like, I don't know. I want to play this guy. One thing. Well, I think there's two times because the Irishman is another situation where De Niro keeps coming to Marty. Or like, yeah, I just think this would be interesting.

43:04And Marty's like, I don't get it. I know this. I know that's a lot. Right. Yeah. Marty doesn't like that the book says that there's in the book, they kind of try to rationalize everything Jake did. Like there's always a reason for the violence for what he did, which, of course, says he's just uninterested in. He also is like, cinematically, I didn't like boxing because the boxing shit we would see as a kid, either filmed fights that maybe we'd be projected in a movie theater or movies would be from like one angle camera all the way the back of the story. Yeah. Right. But he agrees with De Niro. There are incidents in the book that are interesting. Right. Like he can see that. Marty Martin, who had already worked with Scorsese on who's that not going on the door and Mean Street and New York, New York and the last Waltz is handed the book. Marty's kind of like, I don't know if I want to do this, but here we go. He calls Jake Lamata, the bull in the China shop. He's cursed because he's so macho, but he's so fragile about women. Right. Just takes a woman essentially like looking at him weird for him to completely collapse and become an insane, you know, violent, aggressive, you know, it's like you can tell how insecure

44:09he is. Right. He writes a draft. He integrates some things that Marty maybe wants about his family. Like there's something about a fig tree in Staten Island that is like grandfather had. De Niro is like, I fucking hate this. This isn't what I'm going for at all. So then they handed to Paul Schrader, who obviously had already worked on taxi driver and who has a very deep understanding. I feel like about male fragility. Broken man. Right. And at one point, Marty's like, let's do it as a play. They think about that. That's a bad idea. De Niro is getting increasingly mad. New York, New York comes out to bad reviews. Kind of the first time Marty's just gotten bad reviews. Like people are just like thumbs down. And say to De Niro. De Niro's. That's true. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, Juliet, his, his, of course, as he married Juliet Cameron has just collapsed. Uh, you know, he's feeling very dissolution about everything. He's using a lot of drugs. Uh, it's course, I see things basically that he wanted to die.

45:09Right. He's just kind of like pushing it to its limit. And he kind of hits a brick wall. 1978, he says September, 1978, after teleride after like, uh, the play collapses. He's hospitalized. He spends four days in the hospital. Is this the heart attack? Yes. Yes. He physically collapses. He's hovering between life and death. According to him, De Niro comes to CM. They talk very openly about everything he's going through. The official charge is internal bleeding. Okay. Or the official like thing on the chart. Damn. I'd be doing a lot of drugs. Devastating. So he's, you know, he's fragile. He's a tiny, asthmatic man. Right. Yeah. True. Sure. And I met him, Marty fairly recently recently. And he, I, I can attest to his tinyness. He's very small, but he's energetic. I had a fortunately brief and pointless conversation with him. I didn't know what to say to them to him. It was a very strange circumstance. I'm not going to get into the whole story.

46:11I was sitting almost directly across from him at a dinner, at a luncheon table, oddly sitting also next to F. Murray Abraham. Neither of us knew why we were invited to this thing. But it was our big grand meeting with him. F, F Murray had never met him. That's kind of wild. And so he's 80 F. Murray's 80. He's sitting there. I don't know what to say to him. And an introduction from his casting director goes, goes poorly. In other words, he says, Hey, Marty, this is David Kromon. He's a tremendous actor. And he, he doesn't hear it. Literally doesn't hear that. That's tough. And she doesn't try again. And so I'm thinking I should say something. And he starts talking about styles of Chinese food. Okay. Like Sichuan Hunan. And he says that he, in his opinion, Sichuan is the best. We're not talking about favorites.

47:12He's simply saying empirically that Sichuan is the best Chinese food. I disagree. And I say, for me, it's Cantonese classic sort of old school New York Chinese. And he says Cantonese really? And I say, yes, I feel like it's, because it's very New York, even with him. And he looks at me like I'm a moron. And switches the subject to something else. I had ruined the train of thought. And that was it. That's the whole, my whole interaction with Martin Scorsese is that we disagreed on the best Chinese food style. And he moved on for me in that moment. And we'll take it to the grave. Well, he'll get to his grave before I will. So I'll take it to his grave. Maybe I'll go visit his grave. Drop off some Cantonese with, you know, some lobster Cantonese. Yeah. And that's with all due respect. And one of the greatest things that I have. Right.

48:12Of course, who's movie we are, of course, discussing. I guess did you basically get Marty to agree to this in the hospital, which is maybe a little bit pressurized, but whatever. Robbie Robertson Scorsese roommate at the time, which is a great person you want to be roommates with if you're trying to kick coke, right? And Robbie Robertson says, like, I noticed Scorsese finally kind of got back the anger that always helps him work. Or it's like, I can't live without doing this. You know what I mean? Like he suddenly got his sort of, you know, his brother's motor. Yes, right? Perhaps he himself was a raging bull perhaps crushed by ambition. Yes, he says the ability brought back in that ring helped him understand a little bit more about the character. He wanted to make a film about self destructiveness, obviously, right? Like to sort of lay that bear. He reviews the film as kind of a rehabilitation for himself.

49:12He says, I don't want to explain a person with like one Freudian term. I don't like, let's take all that out. So we're not going to make a movie about how like his dad was mean to him. And that's why he's a piece of shit, which is interesting too. By the way, so the brotherly bond. And in the film, really, that is the only representation of family. Oddly, they never, if ever, really ever talk about their parents. We don't know why they both what home they came from and why they're like this. These two brothers. Interesting. I also think the brother had been minimized in the first year of projects. It's interesting. It's interesting. Shradr similarly is not interested in this project. Yeah. He's trying to make American jiggle. Oh, you know, he's sort of transitioning. You know, more of a director himself. So it's like no one. De Niro is the engine. Like both Scorsese and Shradr are like, I don't know. You know, they take Shradr's script with Paul's blessing to a Caribbean island, St. Martin, I believe, and just work on it for weeks together.

50:14They combine characters. They rewrite the dialogue. De Niro, if he's do credit on a script, it's this one, according to like, he's very involved in either of them submitted. So that didn't even attempt to get into Martin and Shradr. The other thing that gets changed is they greatly minimized the presence of the mob in his life. Right. And they put a lot of that out fear of the mob coming in for him because they're just like, we've done this. That's not what this movie is about. Who needs this? This is cliche. Shradr had written a long like three page masturbation monologue in which Lamata is in prison trying to jerk off and failing because he's such a failure. Who amongst us have not been there? Bob and Marty took that out because they felt it was too much. Shradr says one of the best things I ever wrote, I don't know why they took it out. And he's filming it next year, right? But score says he was honestly like, you know, like, it was just, it's impossible to show this kind of stuff and like retain anything in terms of like the audience's interest.

51:15I got a pitch. Camer from the point of view of the penis. Sure. That's how you show it. It's just him going, whatever. The final result is a script that people like De Niro hangs out with the real Jake Lamata a lot. Lamata is on set for some of the boxing scenes. It's interesting because I wonder what he thought of the movie. Lamata lived to be like a hundred years old, which is crazy. Pretty crazy. That's the way like the French people eat chocolate and drink wine all day. You're like, maybe this is the key to long life. You just get in the ring and have your face fucking beaten in. He says that on set, he would kind of be like, I was such a son of a bitch. Like he would be self deprecating, but in kind of a charming way. It must be wild to watch people act out these scenes from your life in a movie that's not glamorizing you. Well, wait a second. There's a lot. There's no way Lamata lets this happen without thinking in some way it's glamorizing. You're right. He has to think there's no way there's on set not going to make a movie about me, baby.

52:17I'm a legend. That might be a component of a wider conversation. Mount Rushmore. You know. As we all know. The dinner gets incredible shape to make this movie. And then they take a four month break. And dinner goes on what they call essentially a pasta tour. He just goes to Northern Italy and France for four months stuffing his face to get the way to play later. That sounds like the greatest trip. I'm currently on a pasta tour. I'm like a 30 to 40 year pasta tour group. Had pasta just last night made great pasta. I'm like kiss where I keep saying like, this is the final pasta tour. And then I extend it for another three years. Apparently, Jake Lamata in his real act would recite Shakespeare. And the end of the movie was him doing that. And Michael Powell again, he seemed director was just like, that's not going to work. No. Like Shakespeare is just all wrong for this. So they they instead go for the on the water front because that's kind of like that's his iconography.

53:18That's also a truth is stranger than fiction thing where if that were in the movie, you'd be like, this is too much of a flourish. This is pretentious. The real guy would never say that. Yeah, but, but yeah, the on the waterfront thing is a risk too. It is because if you think about it, the movie ends in such a ridiculously stark meta way. It's multiple layers of meta. It's deniro reciting the monologue from on the waterfront. He's reciting it flat without emotion, without passion. He's saying that these words of dialogue require some sort of illustriousness, some sort of performance qualities that this guy does just does not have. So then that ends and he does is on the boss on the boss on the boss on the boss on the pocket. And then Scorsese speaks to the audience with a Bible passage. He does. It's the once I was blind, but now I can see literally describing the intention, invention,

54:19and impact of the moving image. They're really saying we were blind. We didn't have movies, but now we can see. And it's the empathy machine argument. It's like this is the best way to understand other people is the movies. Right. And here's the risk of that. There's the risk in the Shakespeare. There's the risk in this. It's essentially it can be viewed as a pat on the back. Yeah. Scorsese going, this is my masterpiece. I fucking did it. I'm making more than just a film about a boxer. I'm making a film about film. It's it's it's again, Tarantino saying having, you know, Brad Pitt say it's a masterpiece. It's bold. It's, but if you are a guy who knows you are an incredibly talented filmmaker and loves film and is losing the chance to make films because of because of one film going awry New York, New York, and you're a drug addict. Yes. And your wife leaves you. You might be losing life. You've lost your love. You are a child that he's basically not going to raise.

55:22Okay. So you have a choice at this moment. You either end the movie with some Shakespearean bullshit. Yeah. Or you come right out and basically say to the audience in a pleading way, I deserve to make films. Yeah. I look at this damn thing. Films are my passion. Once I was blind and now I can see and here it is raw as fuck. And also I refused to self destruct in the way that this man did. I refused to be stuck hammering the fucking jewels out of my championship belt. And do you come away going? Scorsese knew exactly what he was doing when he made this film or do you go, there's no way he could have known the true impact. Love what this film is on a humanistic level. Is it an accident that this story that he didn't want to tell about this dopey ego maniacal

56:25violent conflicted boxer? Is it an accident that it turns out to be emblematic of human frailty itself? Does he know he's making that movie when he's making it? I think he knew he had nothing to lose. And I think that got him into a flow state. That is what he connected to in the boxing sequences of that feeling of just being in there and it making sense. And the beauty of it, right? Even how beautiful it is. You know, I will also say about the Bible. Trader was like, what the fuck is that about? He was like, huh? What are you trying to say? Say there's some salvation. It is also a tribute to his film teacher, a Haguey Manuyan. Oh, yes, yes, it passed away. Right after it says in honor of him. And I do feel like he is talking about what this person did for him as well, like changing his view of how he understood and understood film. The other thing I read was that I think the Shrader version was more intercutting between

57:30the older Lamata and his glory days, if you can call them that. And they made the big structural decision of like its bookends. Right. It's one flashback rather than a series of him recounting his whole life, do we cock style? Originally was more structured for them, right? Yes. Which so many biopics are now, right? Yes, right. Yeah. And you are in War card, are you know? You are. I mean, War card, I mean, Ray. You're in both. Yes, you basically, that's right. I hate yourself. I basically paraded myself. I'm in the Springsteen movie. Did not see it, which came out recently. Yeah, they deliver us from nowhere. I've heard you had a hole in the floor where most people stand. That kind of gets cut out of the movie. Doesn't really, that's interesting. Oh, wait, can I tell a juicy story? Please. Oh, okay. I'm going to do this because I haven't told this story yet about that. So we're going to take a little surgery and into Springsteen, deliver me from nowhere, world briefly, and you can choose to cut it if you want to. My scene is, my one on one scene is what Jeremy Strong. I was playing John's playing John Landau.

58:32I have heard what everyone has heard that Jeremy Strong is stays in character and blah, blah, blah. Okay. And so yes, I'm a little scared of Jeremy Strong when I show up to the set. And I'm also ready to fight him. Like if he fucks with me, if I have to work around this guy, I'm right up. Bash him. I saw the film. You play the head of a Columbia. I had to say yes. And whatever. I think CBS records. And yes, that's correct. And so I have this scene. I've only have two scenes in the movie. The second scene is me hearing the first version of Springsteen's Nebraska and not understanding how it's marketable and why we're doing, why we're going in this direction. And Landau, Jeremy Strong is making the case for having to happen and something that's Springsteen. Okay. So up on set, Jeremy Strong, nice guy. He's not in character.

59:32He is in voice. He's doing the affectation. A big difference that is often the case when you hear stories about people staying in character. It's not where they're like, they're talking to you about craft services. They're just holding on to the accent. Yes. So he's doing that. And so I'm and he's very sweet and wonderful. And he's a great actor and I'm relieved. And we shoot the scene and he says, after the first take, he says, I wrote a monologue for this scene that I'd like to try on film. Now mind you, Springsteen is there. Landau is there while we're filming Scott Cooper directing. Sure. He does the monologue. The hole in the floor. The hole in the floor monologue is written by Jeremy Strong. And it's long and I'm thinking, not bad by any stretch of the imagination, but I'm thinking selfishly. I'm like, well, this scene just became a six minute scene or an eight minute scene. And if they love this monologue, this is all that's going to be in the movie is me sitting

1:00:36there listening to this monologue and thinking, oh, shit, they cut and they come away and they go, no way. Who has never said this monologue is no. No, Springsteen's like no, Landau's like no, Cooper's like no. Jeremy Strong, God love them, does not take no for an answer. It does not seem to be. Let me try again. Let me try again. And so he does a paraphrased version of it on the next take and the next take. And it's changing. It's evolving. Is he shortening it? No. He's not shortening it. It's just changing. He's trying to refine the profundity and they got it. And we step off set while they set up the next shot. And I hear Jeremy Strong speaking to Scott Cooper about it. And all I hear really is him making his case for it and saying Sean told me to fight for

1:01:36what I want as an actor. Pen? I don't know. Interesting. And I'm just standing there. William Scott. Pretty funny. And you know what? Jeremy Strong, if he was a true supposed asshole, what have gotten upset, he laughed his ass off. Lovely human being. I interviewed him for that movie. I was very charmed by him. He's a very nice human being, normal guy. And all that to say, you don't think he's that then I see the trailer for the film. And the trailer is that monologue. But then they cut the monologue out of the man. So wait, so I'm like, holy shit. It's in the monologue that they didn't like made the movie. And now I'm certain to go wait a second. Am I like how there's no way people are going to sit through an eight minute scene. And if that's in the movie, then I wonder what was cut. Yeah. I reach out to Scott Cooper. I say, wow, I can't believe, you know, that made the movie. And he goes, oh, it's not in the movie. And it's not the monologue from the trailer is not in that.

1:02:38It is not. Yeah. The whole movie waiting for the trailer, Ronald. So this is a wonderful marketing thing. Yeah. Yeah. That Jeremy wrote half-hazard. I mean, maybe that was the conversation they had on set with like kind of sum something up. So maybe we use it for the trailer. Yeah. Yeah. No, I talked to him about for that movie. And I said, you know, your whole goddamn process is so insane. But was it weird that you had the guy and could go check with him versus like half these movies where it's like you're playing some dead person. There's no way some guy on set. Right. And instead, this is like, he's fucking sitting over there. Is that better? Is that worse? Like, and he was kind of like, it was interesting. I mean, he wasn't in. I mean, the raging bull was the same way. Lamata is there. He is there. He is there. And it's like that strikes me as something that could be difficult if he tries to interfere. But I don't think he was there at all. There's no way he did because he's probably feeling lucky they're doing it. Right. And also, they do, they make him in moments into a monster. Yes. I don't think there's a human being on earth that would sit there and go, yeah, make

1:03:41it more monstrous. I mean, I think it's vital that you start with him as a monster. Like that, I mean, not just not the, you know, with the steak. Yes. Well, you're just like, God, this guy's like, it is, you know, peaker, whatever. Almost. And he's a piece of shit. And Larry calls him an animal. He could, he could call me a fucking, you're an animal, Larry. You're a, you know, as an animal, your mother's an animal. He goes to the mother right away all the time. A lot of mother. Bring it on the mom. Yeah. Joe Paschie just, was a child actor on the New York stage had not been in a film. It's from 1961. Hey, let's twist until 1976 is the death collector, right, which is the TV movie that they had in the scene. Right. Yeah. He was worn out. He'd given up. He didn't really like the business of acting. He likes acting as an art. He says like, you know, but he was pretty sick of. Hey, it's a hustle. Yeah. He catches wind that they want him for this role. He figured it was like a small role and was basically like, give it to a work actor who wants it. I'm running a restaurant in the Bronx for some friends of mine. Feel like Joe Paschie, the story's like, he's helping some friends of his out.

1:04:45He's helping a friend. I was out of that place in Hollywood where you're at. Everyone's mercy all the time. You know, he basically just, you know, he's sick of it. Then he meets Marty and Bob. He saw working with them. We'd be different. It was all, as you said, because D'Niro had somehow seen the death collector on tape and was like, this guy's interesting. There's a scene I guess in that movie where he runs a crap game and they liked his energy. I haven't seen the death collector. And you know, they just like the way he talks. And that's how that happens. Kathy Moriarty. Joe Paschie had seen her picture in a club. Like to the look of her. She'd never acted. She was 19, which defies logic. You watched this performance and you assume they cast a third of your role to his playing young. Well, she's got that great old person voice. He's seen. He's got that great a little. She's got a little bit of smokiness and that voice. She's got more than she is stunningly beautiful. Yes. In a classic film. She's a beauty.

1:05:45Yes. Yes. But they obviously needed someone who is kind of flinty and tough and like, you know, could stand up to everyone. And I don't know how they get that out of a picture in a club, but I guess they meet her and they get it. They shoot the fight scenes for 10 weeks. They shoot then they shoot dramatic scenes for 10 weeks. Then they take a four month break. Everyone is paid. While the nearer it is on his eating tour, they shoot the damn thing for 20 weeks, 20 weeks and saying then a four month break. And then he comes back and they do the rest of it, which is not too much. Not too much. Okay. The old, the older Lomada stuff is, is not heavy running time, right? No, if you had it all up. No, it's like 10 and a half hour. Yeah. I think it's a half hour. Okay. It's the last half hour. They when they just start doing some prep, they, he shoots some eight millimeter footage of Bobby training in a gym and Michael Powell again, score says he's mentors. Like the gloves wouldn't be red back then because he had like red boxed gloves. And he's like, you know, back then gloves were basically like that kind of like, down, it's brown, brown or black.

1:06:47And Marty is basically like, we got to do this in black and white. Number one, I want to differentiate from the Rockies and all the other sort of boxing movies right now. Like I want to look different because those movies are all bright, reds and blues and all that. And Rocky is all American flag. And number two, and this is a nerdy score, says he reasons, he's really upset that color stocks are fading like Eastman film. Yes. The colors, like not lasting. I guess it's preservation and yeah. And then beyond that, he's just kind of like, it'll look period. It'll look like an old like daily news photo from the era, right? Like it'll have that, that's the great argument. That is what the movie gets at for me. Yeah. And then in the book, apparently it opens with Jake Lamada's first sentences, when my memories come back to me, I have the feeling that I'm watching an old film in black and white. Marty says, I don't remember that, but apparently that isn't there. Can I say there's a haphazard result out of it, which is, yes, let's say, yes, there's

1:07:48an old feeling to it. We're telling a classic story, a crude raw story. There's no color. It's black and white. His life is black and white. It's either that he's got it together and he's handling his life well or he's a complete and other dark maniac, right? Black, dark maniac. But there's also this haphazard effect on the comedy because we're seeing comedy clearly in a deliberate comedic moments mixed in with violence. It's the three stu just. That pattern. Yes, it softens it in a way. Yeah. If it's in color, it's almost too vivid. If you see the blood and the blood is red, it's almost too much. I was going to say accident in a way. Yeah. It is the black and white of it softens the comedy. Yeah. If this movie were in color, it would be talked about as one of those violent movies of all. That is very true. Yes. Yeah.

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1:10:50covering games, movies and tech. They deliver the kind of analysis, editorials, podcast videos, rankings, nerdy femur that you can't find elsewhere. So check them out at videogame.town and be sure to subscribe for their backlog of evergreen video game town hall episodes wherever you get your podcasts. And if you want to support the return of fully independent web media, you can directly visit whatthewonpatreon.com slash video game town for exclusive articles and podcasts. If you like world-class film criticism, Pokemon EV, Luciens, industry talk, exclusive previews, hidden gems from the past, and media that's more than a little weird, consider setting up shop in town and becoming our neighbor by going to video game.town for new stuff every single day. He's been a TV-leafing. Uh, EV? He wanted to do the ring scenes as if like the viewers are the fighter, right? Yeah. And, you know, you're not cutting to the audience much.

1:11:53Like you never really see them going like get it or whatever. And the pretty abstracted even in the background of shots. As you said, it's a lot of smoke and a lot of just black backdrops. Frank Warner, the fully guy, sound effects guy, used melons. He would fire rifles into them and stuff like you did all kinds of weird sound effects. Obviously at some points they dropped the sound, which is so scary and impressive and then they bring it back to really get you. Pretty sure, Ben. I'm realizing in another life you could have been a fully artist. Yeah. It feels like some real bench interesting down and go. It sounds like a punch shoot a rifle into a melon. Totally. It's a really strange way. Yeah. It seems really fun to come up with those concepts. Yes. Experiment. And as I said, everyone is different. They didn't want to repeat sounds. So they did like a massive, massive number of takes and different techniques. Uh, and then obviously also this is the reunion of Marty and film a scoomaker, uh, who will edit all the rest of his films. Yes. Basically. This was, I think, voted by the editor society. She won the Oscar. She won the Oscar, but I think it was voted the best edited film of all time.

1:12:57Was there a sound editing Oscar at this time? Let's take a look. Sound as a sound Oscar. I think there wasn't, but let me see. Because you know, remember, they would sort of do like special, uh, best sound. Look, it did go to the Empire Strikes Back, which does have pretty good sound. Yeah. High bar there. It was nominated. It did have difficulty. Yeah. But the best sound was given to the Empire Strikes Back. Raging Bowl was nominated for best. One two Oscars, one for editing and one for Robert De Niro. Robert De Niro won for this? Yes, he did. Okay. And the marketing. Okay. It's obviously this is, um, although I think he wasn't there maybe for Godfather. I think it's the first time he makes that correct. Am I crazy to say that he hasn't won an Academy Award since that's correct. That's correct. He is just to his exactly two. Wow. And I feel like it's been buzzing around. Is it time to finally give my third since silver linings? Right. Silver linings and, um, fire moon. He was nominated for both. There's a long gap. Like he doesn't get nominated. He's a really Cape Fear and silver linings. Is that right?

1:13:58I think that's right. Yeah. I don't know what his third Oscar would have been exactly. I mean, it should have been the intern. Hmm. Have you seen the intern? No. He's phenomenal in the intern. Yeah. He plays an intern. Um, um, this is the ordinary people year. Obviously. Obviously. That's what wins best picture and director. Yeah. Wow. What a year. Good Lord. Yeah. It beats obviously Timothy Hutton wins sporting actor over, um, Pesci. And Mary Steenberg and wins best sporting actress from Melvin and Howard. It's a good win. A lovely performance over Kathy, uh, and best adapted screenplay wasn't even nominated, which is somewhat shocking. Yeah. Well, but if you think about it, not really because the movie is heavily improvised. Yeah. And is there even a script? There are multiple scripts. There are, but it's not like they stuck to it. Yes. There's no way. And to me, the most shocking wind, yeah, the loss is the cinematography loss. Yeah. So, uh, there's a, yeah, let's talk about the film. There's two scenes in this movie, one that I don't like and one that I absolutely love.

1:15:02Give him to. Okay. The only scene I don't like in this movie because it's a little on the nose foreshadowing is them at, you know, on their first date, mini golf, they lose the ball. She shoots it into some structure on this mini golf thing and the ball doesn't come out. And I felt like, okay, he's telling us that this guy is going to lose everything. That, you know, sometimes you take a shot and it doesn't end up doing anything. Right. Okay. So that felt that in retrospect watching and I was like, okay, this, this scene is a little like the screenwriting 101. I'm, you know, and that's not to knock anything, but it's, it's not great. All turn it late. I'll turn it tively. I don't know how to speak. The bit with the champagne glasses stacked at the end. Yes. Representing balance. Yeah. Sure.

1:16:03And Scorsese at that point deep into this film. Now we're about an hour and 45 into the two hours. Yeah. When we're past his career and he's now, this is running the club. But why is that scene in this film? Right. And he's moving himself that he can balance this thing. But Scorsese is playing now with what he established. What is the, he's saying to the audience, you don't know what to feel. Do you? Yeah. Yes. There is no balance. You're watching our lead character balance this, this thing. Access. He's balancing, you can't balance how you feel. I know you can't. I'm Scorsese. I made a movie that it is confusing you. You don't know what to feel. And if you feel disturbed, maybe that's the only thing you feel because you just don't, you're used to being told what to feel or assuming what you should be feeling. And this movie is so cross genre. There's 10 genres. You don't know what to feel. And so you're conflicted, you're uncomfortable.

1:17:03And honestly, watching that balancing and his pride in it, to me is the goryest moment of this movie. A movie filled with blood. The goryest moment is him doing this champagne balance and smiling and getting the congratulations from the few people that are gathered around that. There's something so disturbing about that moment and so gross. The employee comes up and says your wife is here. Yeah. He's going to be any more discursive. Right. He's just like, let me do this. That's the real point of it for me is that what he's balancing is an overflowing amount of alcohol for nobody's. Right. And it's like, what is the victory here? It's an incredibly tense scene because we've watched him fail to navigate the simplest human interactions throughout the movie. And anytime this guy fucking sits down for dinner or talks to someone, you're like, is he going to explode? Is he going to? And then you can feel the tension in the scene and in the audience of being like, are

1:18:06the fucking glasses going to fall over? Is he going to scream at someone? He does the fake out. He does the fake out. And then you're so you're tense because you've spent your whole life with this guy. It feels like just being on edge about what a monster he can be. And then he does it. And you're like, huh, I feel triumphant. And then you feel bad about that. Yeah. You're like, he did a good job. And it's just just this kind of revolving and there's this weird triumph to it. That's what I love about this movie. The same with him in the prison cell, were you feel bad for him? Yeah. But then you're also just like, he's a monster like, you know, and like, you get out with a 14 year old at a club. It's and, yeah, you know, at his club as the owner as the, and then when he says the like, what? I mean, she, he's defense isn't even I didn't know she was. It's what does she look 14 to you? And then he's that beside of her as she is. And her high school, whatever, whatever.

1:19:07Yeah. And you're just, you're just like, I'd want him locked up and then he's, you know, pummeling the wall and you're just like, you know, I, well, what is locking? You know, like what, what, what satisfaction am I getting out of this? I already knew he was like this broken animal. Get it? It's also that he won't be looking. He dissolves into banging his head against the cement wall and saying dummy over and over again. And then that turns into box and practice. Like he brews or it's back to the one thing he knows, which is to try to punch his way out of stuff. This is the kind of movie you exit the theater and the person your with goes, what do you think? Yeah. And you're afraid to answer it in a lab away of a thousand thoughts, but you don't want to be wrong. Yeah. And so you say, it was great. And that's all you say. It's very well. It's a lot. Wow. Whatever you say, whatever you say says a lot about you. Yeah. And that's what. That's exactly what he's doing. He's putting the audience in such an awkward position.

1:20:10How do you feel? Was he likeable? Was he fun to follow? Was he funny? Was he is he a disgusting human being? You know, we all spend the majority of our lives negotiating with the reality of who we are and not ever accepting who we really, really are. And it isn't until the I'm a dummy. Yeah. I might have that we see the pain of accepting who you really, really are. Jake finally accepts he is a dummy. You're so stupid. You're so stupid. You ruined everything. Yes. You're a bum. You know, it's and it's brutal to do that. But it's also brutal to negotiate with the reality. So there's the rock in the hard place. Yeah. You know what I mean? Think we would be crazy not to talk about the style of comedy in this film. Can we do that? Please. So we're now entering into this nuanced sort of circumstantial comedy.

1:21:13There's not a single written joke in this movie. There's just little things being said, behavior, maybe in behavior, maybe in just and it's gutterly funny. And a lot of it's also just rhythmic. It's correct. There's no clever way to banter it. It's the opposite of Woody banter. Yes. And some of these lines I wrote down if you don't mind, there's the he says when he throws the fight and Billy Fox, I think or Jimmy is a Billy Fox. Yeah. I think Billy Fox is the fighter he fights who does a bad job making it look like a real fight. He can't sell it because he's too embarrassed and he ends up getting suspended. And Lamada gets suspended and he's looking at the paper. And we've had this this this very funny physical bit where he he smacks. Pesh, he says smack me. Let me show you some just smack me and he smacks him and Pesh, he boom. It's all that. Yeah. He has to do that. He goes put your hands up. Right.

1:22:13There's not even a smack and Lamada just puts his hands up and Pesh, he falls straight down. That's right. Yeah. There's also in that scene, he picks up the deniro picks up the paper and says, look at him. Look, they make me look like a bum, like a mama Luke and Pesh, she goes, I Google Pesh, she goes, a lot. And he goes like the mama Luke at a year. It's just like, you know, there's no way they don't know while they're making it that that's funny. And while they're editing these, who knows what's not in the movie from all that improv. There's no way it's not improvised. Like the mama Luke at a year. That's one of my favorite. Then there's the, there's the moment where he throws the fight. He knows it looked bad. He's crying his eyes out and start contrast to the fight where he, I believe he loses. It's in the beginning. He loses the first fight we see him in. Yes. He loses, but like there's a somewhat moral victory of what you kind of had him.

1:23:16Yeah. I think it's that fight or maybe it's one of the sugar ray fights, but he's sitting in the, whatever the dressing room or whatever it'd be afterwards. And there's a real peace. Yeah. He got what he needed out. Yes. It's like post coilo for him. He's sitting there. Everybody else is kind of freaking out. Oh, yeah, that's right. Joe Pesch, he's like, they fucking robbed you. Right. And he's sitting there going, it's all right. It's all right. And he says he goes, ah, you know, maybe I deserve it. Maybe I've done some bad things in my life. All of a sudden you get, oh, there's some emotion, there are intelligence there, some awareness. You know, what a weird thing to say from this crude guy to say, you know, maybe it's just karma, you know, but later there's the scene where he throws it and he's with it. But later, he's crying hysterically. Yeah. And his trainer goes, you know what? Don't fight ever again. It's a free country. Don't fight ever again. I've that line has me scream. And then his, his trainer, that old man, starts to cry.

1:24:17Yeah. But before you know, don't fight again. It's a free country. Don't fight again. I just think the small hands thing is so big because as you said, like he loses the opening fight, but he has inner peace because he feels like he proved what he needed to prove. Right. And then after he wins what is the biggest fight of his career, he cannot get over the fact that he never will be able to achieve what he wants to achieve. That's right. That physically he is incapable of actually getting. I can't get the fight that proves that I'm the best. And then you got peshy. Yes. What wrong with you? Why would you care about that? That's crazy. Sick. You know, what are you talking about? You want to fight Jolie? You're a heavyweight. He's a heavyweight. Yeah. It's never going to happen. Why would you like to give me a worry about shit? It's the things you worry about. That's why you sick bastard. That's why you're fat fuck. Which is. It's so so good. But peshy is let loose. The heavyweight thing is really telling. Yeah. We're like, you can tell him, I was like, well, but I wouldn't actually be the best unless I could fucking like knock down a hominoline.

1:25:17Right. Well, you're not fucking capable of that. You are literally not large. It's irrelevant. And like even if it be true, you if you went to the weight of a heavyweight, you would just be a ball. Yeah. So like, so he gets to what the end of the move. He never gets over it. Yeah. He never gets over. You know, she beats Sugar Ray one time who was kind of the king of his division. And that's something. But you could tell like from there on, and that's very early in the movie. But there's no way he's going to ever feel like he won't never feel exactly vindicated in his in his. And everything falls apart. Right. But the the comic engine of this movie that really the movie hinges on the comedy or else, it's it's too miserable to watch is the brother dynamic. It's a brother comedy to very different brothers. One's a handsome tall, really physically fit beast animal and his, you know, wise cracking but sensible, a little pugnacious Napoleon complex, tiny brother. You know, they both have the same size hands, but other than that, there's nothing.

1:26:20And there's a ton of comedy. And even that becomes tragic. Yes. You know, he beats the shit out of his brother and then he tries years later to, to, you know, his brother won't hug him back. Yeah. Oh, kiss me. Come on. Kiss me. Kiss me. Kiss me. He won't do it. He never does it. He gets in his car. He says, yeah, I'll call you. Pesh, he does. Yeah. You know, you'll call me. Yeah. Yeah. Everything goes to shit. Yeah. Scorsese is going, you want me to be cruel? I'm going to take the funny stuff away now. I'm going to make the funny, the stuff you were watching in the beginning that really you, you were enjoying. I'm going to take that away. I'm going to ruin that for you. You know, there are certain films and certain filmmakers who have no problem being mean to an audience. You know, that, you know, let's, let's stick it to them. Let's make them bleed. And Scorsese has to, you know, it's the visceral reaction. That he wants. He's not trying to get anyone going, again, no area-dite responses are necessary to a

1:27:24Scorsese film. Right. You know, he doesn't want people walking out analyzing the shit, which is what we're kind of doing today. Sure. Right? Yeah, that's true. This is not what he wants. No. He wants you to come out in pain. Feel something. Feel something so visceral. Yeah. Panic, you know, fear, cave fear. A bit of embarrassment. A little bit. Just, yeah, embarrassment. I think a lack of identity, you don't want to admit who, how you felt about the movie because you don't want to like think, make people think you're crazy. If you say, I like Lamata, right? Or I relate to him or I sympathize with him. He wants you to think that he's got you on the ropes. How's that? How's that? Scorsese? You got us on the, you motherfucker. I think there's another thing. And it's because I love Martin Scorray. No, but it's over and over and over again. And he sparks this discourse among his viewers of like, well, I wasn't supposed to. I sympathize with that. Was I? Is this movie irresponsible? Or does he sympathize with this? And he's just like human behavior. Like, like this happens all the time. Right.

1:28:24And in the world of film, very, very few filmmakers attempt to tackle the thing that Kubrick's all of Kubrick's movies are about, which is the fight between the consciousness of humanity and the subconscious nature of animal instinct. And that inherent battle, you know, you really, man, that's a tough line in a film. But if film is made for anything, it's for that. And that's a real ambitious thing to do. Very few filmmakers can pull it off. This is, if at this point, if Scorsese hasn't done it with taxi driver, this is him putting an exclamation point on, I can do this. As a filmmaker, I can show you a film that will get to the base issue of humanity. And very few filmmakers can do it completely in a full way where the message is clearly

1:29:24sent. And yet there's mystery as to how well it's done if that makes sense in a way. I think there's another massive thing. Speaking of what does it to. Yes. I think the other massive thing going on here is, Scorsese, I mean, you were talking about the comedy of this. He unlocks how much the comedy helps all of this go down because laughter is involuntary. You can make people laugh at bad behavior without judging. It's a thing that just happens. That just happens. And this is all involuntarily. Totally. There is no single, like I said, written or deliberate joke. And hard to put your finger on why is this funny? This is belly laugh stuff. And New York has the same very repetitive recursive improv, but it's not funny. And it's actually just punishing and punishing it off. You're thinking, I hate this guy because I don't like spending time with him. There's nothing even entertaining about spending time with him versus if it's entertaining, if you can locate what is both the comedic and dramatic motor of a scene and just wind

1:30:25that up, it's what he said when he read the book. There are scenes in this. I see that. It's a scene's incidents, setups in this that are interesting. And if you can make those entertaining, the audience is with you a long way until they start to intellectualize it. The map that is established in the late 70s to be able to tell these sort of human frailty stories with comedy, with, you know, part of that map is Annie Hall. Okay. Nobody has done this thing where he goes, oh, you want to see a movie about human frailty? Cast me as the lead. I'm going to cast myself as lead done. So by time raging bulls come out, audiences are used to seeing these films about fragile men who are crushed by ambition and burdened by their ability. And so Scorsese, I think uses that zeitgeist to then give you something so horrifying.

1:31:34Lamada is probably a much, much more classically frightening monster movie monster than Lamada was as a person. Yes. Right. There's some exaggeration. There's some in who he is for the film for film sake. Well, it's the density of the story when you're limiting it to the highlights. You're seeing disproportionately his explosions. And it's, it's in my opinion, one of the scariest performances I've ever seen. When I was 21, especially seeing this for the first time, De Niro's performance scared the bejesus out of me. There are times he truly goes dead eyed. He gets so animalistic that you go, whoa, I didn't think a human being was, there's a psychotic nature to this performance. I also think that like the 70s new Hollywood has the rise of the anti-hero that really starts in the late 60s. But this is a big shift into like this guy's not even an anti-hero, right?

1:32:34This is putting the guy you'd never put at the center of the picture right there. Yeah, right, right. Because it's, you know, something like midnight cowboy has like, well, Ratsuo Rizzo is on the side. Yeah. And you have a very much into doesn't quite understand what he's getting into at the center. That balances it out. That makes you feel less dirty from where you're identifying. But this is the Ratsuo Rizzo movie sort of. And again, another reason they don't, they can't make this today. No. No. They don't make movies, you know, peshy when he blew up after winning the Academy Awards from the 90s. Yeah. Yeah. Suddenly he's doing all, you know, a couple of the super. Yes. Remember Mike Cousin-Vinney? Yes. You know, those movies are great. They are. But like movies where suddenly Hollywood is like, what's a vehicle for you? What's a vehicle? What's your system? Right. Nowadays they don't do that. No. If you were to ask an executive, hey, is it a good marketing strategy to make a movie about a freaky person? They would be like, we can't do it.

1:33:36Yeah. Yes. But wouldn't an audience like to see something different, different for different sake? Wouldn't they like to see something small? People like this guy. People who are watching us. Yeah. Strange. And the answer, you know, to any layman who isn't a communications major straight out of college who's been, who's failed upward into beginning a development executive at a studio is of course we want to see those. The problem is those people who make the decisions now are like, it's like Saber metrics. Yeah. They just go analytically. I wouldn't. You wouldn't. You want Saber metrics. You know, that Saber metrics are ruining Hollywood. We are in the Saber metric period. Yes. Of Hollywood three point. I would have guy do love Hollywood three point of the take it all back. Hollywood three point. I was better than ever. So then Saber metrics ruin Hollywood two point. Oh, and now we're building something new with three point of hope. So because it's disgusting to be honest. I think this is what has happened. What the safeties do. And I think of the Scorsese influence that clearly is on their work.

1:34:37This is the movie that is the greatest. I'm sure. And just this sort of the safty thing of like how which can be uncomfortable and kind of backfire of like how close can we get to a real person that's uncomfortable for you? Totally. Yeah. Now have either of you ever met or seen Robert De Niro? I have nothing beyond a sort of a press conference type scenario. No. I have. And I have told my De Niro story on too many podcasts. Okay. But there's a second. We will syndicate. I had a very, very awkward and wild. I kidnapped his kids for about 10 seconds. Yes. I heard this story. It's an unbelievable thing. Yes. Saddled with it that you know, I kidnapped my hero's kids by accident. Yes. He's got twins. He's like, he was the twins that I kidnapped by accident. By accident, I accidentally, I was no deliberate kidnapping. It was actually their fault that they got kidnapped.

1:35:37But I'm not going to get into the story because anyone can look it up and you'll see that I'm not lying about that part of it. But the second story. So three years ago, I'm at the SAGA Awards for the Scott Benheim area. Of a no. For up and high. And De Niro is there for killers of the flower moon. And I go to the bathroom. The bathroom is back behind the curtains backstage. I go to the bathroom and standing in front of the men's room, seemingly waiting for someone to come out is Robert De Niro. And I see him and people are asking to take pictures with him and he's obliging. I go in an IP. I'm in there. A reasonable amount of time. I come out. He's still out there. And I realize he's not waiting for anyone to come out of the bathroom. And what has formed is essentially a line of fans lined up to take pictures with Robert De Niro as if he's like some sort of Disney mascot.

1:36:38And he's happy to oblige. Now this is clearly not the De Niro of 1980. No. There's no way this is the Niro of 1990 of 2000. That's the one who's accepting the older state. Correct. Older De Niro who loves it. Who loves the praise. And so I stand online. Wow. I join the line. Now I'd met him years prior. I assume there's no way he remembers me. And there wasn't. I went up to him and I said hi, Mr. Niro. I'm an actor too. I'm an Oppenheimer and I just want to say it's great to me. He has no idea who I am. And thankfully, because I don't think he loved the story of me kidnapping his children. And so I said, do you mind if I take a picture with you too? And he said yes. And I took a picture and he said, cheese. Wow. And then I found out that's what he does. With every fan takes three, he's he reflects, he says cheese. I mean, you're so he's the sky, right? Right.

1:37:39So who played? Cheekle of moda. Right. Who played what's the name of the character in Cape Seer? Nice Katie. Yeah. Oh my god. Just all ridiculously complicated actor. A person on screen where you're like the devil's here. You know, like, yes. And then he did play the devil, of course. And then it's cheese. Well, there's a little bit of jadla. A lot of there with his dignity still intact. Absolutely. But especially when he had such a hard pivot to comedy. Right. When he did the comedies and then he did the sort of era of like showing up in weird kind of red boxy movies. And he doesn't get enough credit for being a great comedic actor. It's not a great comedic film. Very friendly actor. But obviously, you know, he made himself more of a public figure. He made himself the spokesperson of Tribeca and started a festival and opened up on a show. He's politically charged and with his, you know, wait, he doesn't like Donald, does he power in David? David, has he come out on this? Pretty sure he's taking a weight. He's the approach. Was it Bo is afraid? There was some movie where he was doing it.

1:38:40No, it was Megalopolis. Okay. He did a Q&A with Coppola. And maybe Marty was there too. I can't even, I love his voice. I know it's Coppola. And like everyone who was there was like one minute in. He was like, and by the way, Trump is no good either. He can't help himself. He can't. Which I love. I love it. And I love the rumor MSNBC, you know, grandpa that it feels very much like there's a personal issue too. Yes. Because this is a new year. This is a new year. And because DeNiro kind of owns a lot of property in Tribeca, which is, you know, and I'm sure Trump has his, you know, there must have been something that happened in the past. I just love when he's at that award show and he says, fuck Trump, but he doesn't just say fuck Trump. He puts his arms up like he's happy. Yes. Yeah. He goes on strong. Here's what he said. Just imagine Donald Trump directing this film. It'll never go anywhere. Where I come sure everyone was like, I don't think anyone thought Trump was in the running on directing Megalopolis.

1:39:40By the way, you could say that about literally any movie. You could say, imagine Trump directing a Cinderella story. And I'm like, yeah, it wouldn't be good. The guy's not a good director. He lacks the basic experience to direct emotion picks. And also I love Megalopolis. It's a fascinating document. That's not something where I was watching it be. Right on rails. Thank God Trump didn't wreck this one. Do you remember because it relates back to this movie when it was the early stages of first Trump presidency, DeNiro going fuck Trump. And Trump made a public statement about it. Maybe a tweet. Basha Robert DeNiro. Yes. He's a washed up old jerk. Boom. Boy. Right. He's lost his mind and he said, I think he made one too many boxing pictures. His slam on him was, oh, he's punch drunk. Right. He's made one too many boxing pictures. He made one. He made Raging Bull. He made one second one, which is Grudge match. I was about to say no. You made Grudge match. Never forget. That's right. Which is DeNiro versus Stallone. Correct. And in this one of Trump's favorite movies, yeah, probably. Probably.

1:40:41Probably. But also within the same term, he gives Stallone like the national medal of all. Yeah. So he's definitely seeing Grudge. And Stallone's made a cup. Oh, he definitely watched Grudge. And slammed DeNiro saying too many boxing pictures and be like, by the way, here's my best friend. I'm sorry, sister. She's been a real. Are you saying this is where you draw the line on? I'm sorry. And I'm using this episode to speak out against it. I do not like Donald Trump for this one reason. David. Yes. Red alert. Uh-oh. There's been an outbreak. Bio. How? I'm sorry. I'm sorry. There's been an outbreak. Biohazard of a new Patreon series. It's contagious. Oh, that's so true. It's, uh, it's been cooked up in the lab for your pleasure. From the fine folks at the umbrella corporation, we are covering resident evil. The film franchise. Yes. We've got the first franchise. Six movies. Yes.

1:41:41That beautiful second franchise. How many six seven? It's got the one. Oh, it's got the one. We'll be covering all of them on Patreon doing commentaries on, yes, the resident evil apocalypse extinction after life, retribution. A final chapter. Welcome to Recruiting. This is an exciting time. Uh, is that Craig or friend of the podcast? Yes. Yes. And we thought this was a good opportunity to revisit the history of resident evil movies. Why not? Why not? Why can't we? Why can't we? We can. Check in for that August 1st. And he's going to be running all the way through November 1st. Followed by your March Manus winner Dracula. Dracula himself. That's so fun. So that's great. That's great. Thank you. Thank you so much. Can I take a moment? Please. Still a moment away.

1:42:41And just say that I know a lot of amazing actors who would say that without that, yes, in a world of patinos and Hoffman's and Nicholson's and and and and Gina Rollins's and Peter Fox that they'd be nothing without Robert De Niro. Yeah. That Robert De Niro laid so much groundwork for so much amazing work to come after. Well, and he's still doing it. I mean, I don't know if you guys saw that Netflix series. He did that a lot of people didn't watch unfortunately. You were out there. Zero day. Zero day. Zero day. Amazing. Amazing performance again. It's ridiculous. It's another character. It's another thing. The guy he's basically playing Joe Biden. Right. Like an elder statesman president. Right. The guy is just the ideal thing. And it's all like there's nothing that isn't derivative at this point.

1:43:45It's it's one of those things. It's like Led Zeppelin or something or Wu Tang clan where it just completely, there's no way you can ever say that anything new wasn't influenced by that thing. De Niro is that I don't know if Scorsese is that I think Scorsese is a definitely a dynamic filmmaker and definitely one of the for me top three of all time. But in terms of completely restructuring the art itself, no crumbs left on the plate. And that's from from from finishing and that's from crumholes from crumhole. God dammit. I hate that my name is David crumholes in this moment. It's a great. I just want to say God, I love I just I'm get emotional. Yeah. So glad that Robert De Niro exists. But to me and I think he wants this. My guess is he doesn't want to exist. He wants his characters to well, it's the part of him that hates doing press.

1:44:46Correct. And seems like his toenails are being pulled out. What a amazing unique thing that is. Yeah. An artist that doesn't want to take credit for his art in a way. And doesn't yeah, it's so. No, no sort of like it came out of nowhere. It's noble. Right. The profundity of what he was able to achieve amongst a world of actors. Wow. Robert De Niro. Good actor. Beyond. Good actor. Beyond on another level. It's like this thing I read about Wu Tang once. You know, I love the Wu Tang clan where it says there's Wu Tang and then there's also hip hop. You know, sure. Robert De Niro is just its own singular thing actor thing. I don't know how to do that. I don't know if anyone knows how to be that, how to live with that talent. All we can all do as a collective, especially as ethnic, you know, American actors is strive

1:45:47for that. But there's no escaping. You'll never be better than Robert De Niro. As an actor, you will never be better pound for pound than Robert De Niro. I also think that's okay. I think it's like Brando where especially other guys of his generation, you see that everyone goes, this is the new thing to strive for. And I think De Niro is a thing that people strive for and you can tell when people want to be De Niro. And of course, there's no De Niro without Brando. Yes. I didn't just come out of nowhere. But he doesn't feel iterative. That's what's different. And he blasts that style through the stratosphere. Yes. So, so he sees an opening. Oh shit, Brando's doing a more sort of nuanced, weird subtle off the cuff thing that no one else is allowed to do. I'm going to, that's going to shoot. I'm going to do that, but take it to an infinite level that, that again, I don't, there will never be another actor better than Robert De Niro.

1:46:49There will be actors that are good as good. And there are, you know, Denzel and you know, the list goes on and on. There is no such thing as better. And then you speak to what is acting, right? What is it? It's a matter of degrees between the worst porn actor, the offense to porn. I certainly don't want to fend off the porn, agraphy, acting community. And Robert De Niro, that what is the tangible thing that makes De Niro better than your worst porn actor? Well, even as you said, there is nothing tangible that this movie, it's a matter of degrees, is going to build to watching this guy give a bad performance night after night, right? That it's a level of genius for Denero to understand what a bad performance is. Yes. And to be able to play it, I've seen, you know, actors play bad actors. Yeah. No one does it as well as Denero. No. Sick. It's frightening. In many ways, Denero is maybe the most frightening person on earth.

1:47:52That has ever lived. Are there specific in a way that I love and revere him? Of course. No, of course. And I would want to hug him and be his friend. Are there other specific scenes we want to shout out? We're talking about the stakes in a little bit. Sticks can hardly get to it. Sticks can hardly get to it. Yeah. An impression of like this guy is being a piece of shit. Yes. He's got a wife we're barely going to get to know that, you know, that he just clearly treats like garbage. We're watching the end of his first era. Right. And he started the beginning of his star, his athlete's startup, but he's already, you know, watching out of America because he's an abuse of pieces of shit. There's all this stuff with Frank Vincent who basically always plays a guy who's going to like get the shippied out. Yeah. Well, that's great. That's what's great about Goodfell is. Well, well, that's the great score. It's a great season. It's a score. It's a season. I can do this twice and get it. And it'll be better the second time. Yes. The pool, you know, when they're at the pool, talk, sort of, talk, and, yeah, and talking

1:48:55about Kathy Morierny and you see the sort of the seeds of his insecurity being planted right there. Where Pesci's like, well, you know, you got this, you got a, this a girl, you got to go on a couple days ago. I got to get to know her sleep with you. You know, like, you know, and shot the gate. Yes. Like he's in a cage. Right. And he's also like, cageing her, right? Yes. Can you, like, was so you tried? Yeah. What you're telling me is you try, you try, because he doesn't want to be like sloppy seconds or whatever about it. But she didn't go. She didn't go. Right. And so then there's a triumph of he gets her. Yeah. Um, and her performance is just amazing because you're just like she's 19 that she's so young, but that just like so immediately you understand, like, oh, this is so much more than he can handle. Like, you know, like he just thought he was like getting some pretty younger. That's where I can't believe that she's actually 19 because the amount of like presence in command she has holding her own in these scenes against these guys. She's probably scared shitless and she probably it scared her into intimidated.

1:49:59I should use though. That's the word intimidated shitless and intimidated into just hanging on for dear life and not fucking a damn thing up. And by the end of the movie, she's playing 10, 15 years older than she is. Right. And you buy it totally buy it. If you do more like it's a 30 year old playing young at the beginning, then it does like a teenager playing old at the end. The contrast between the scene where early on where where he tells Joey, you know, hit me punch me. And Joey, you know, beats the gives him a real good beating and even opens one of his cuts. You know, come on. You know, that's not come on. You can hit me harder. What's wrong with you? I said, I can't wait. I hit you hard. Boom, boom, boom. And the scene later, the did you fuck my wife see where there's no physical violence. But it's the emotional violence between two brothers. You know, you're sick, but you know, you sick guy, you know, how come that? Where do you get balls big enough to ask me that?

1:51:02Where do you get balls big enough to ask me that? I fuck your wife. You know, and how hurt. How much more painful it is to watch these two. They're not giving me the right answer. Hurried each other like that. Yeah. Yeah, but the older brother hurt him, you know, I believe Joey's indignity. Oh, yeah. The questioning. And I believe Jake's like, oh, well, he's not saying it. Yeah. So it must be true. Yeah. And, you know, Jake probably did hear things. And is it true? Yeah. Did did Vicki suck Joey's dick like she says she does later and also talks about how how his dick is bigger than than Jake's at this point. My big dick than you too, she knows that little upset him. She knows it. Or did it, is it true? At this point, how many years she have a Schwanz? Well, I think he did. And Deniro has a micropeak. I don't think you get that peshy energy from nowhere. I think, yeah, peshy's got a good hog at this point. That's how many years have passed you a Gmail icon since, yes, since the Frank Vincent

1:52:05incident. So you're like, he's been holding on to this for. Like ten years. Yeah. And what I don't know if it's that in the movie. Yeah. Oh no, it's more like two, three years. Even still. Like, you know, he's holding on to a must have heard something. Yes. You know, even just once the truth out of his brother, he just can't get over this idea five years. Five years. Okay. If you were this angry to attack this guy this badly, what other reason could possibly exist other than my wife at the center of it? Their relationship, the brothers, you know, collapses in 1950. That's when the fight is. Who's is that final fight to sugar ray in 51? You see, yes, but you see pet, you know, Joey at home watching it, knowing like, it's because I'm not there as part of this. He's just kind of like, he can't be controlled anymore. He's just wants to be murdered in the ring, essentially, or at least to prove something by like taking this ungodly beating and not falling down. You write like the cuts to peshy watching it at home where he's just, it's not, I mean, I don't even get the sense that he's like, I'm failing my brother.

1:53:07But he is kind of like, I understand that the piece of his talent is now. He's right. He's also another scene toward the end where, you know, this is post arrest, post jail time. He's now doing stand up as the opening act for a stripper that he's fucking. He doesn't have his own club anymore. In a tiny dive bar in New York City. Yes. And a guy is in the crowd heckling him saying, you're not funny, you suck. And we know that Jay Clamatta, as we know him, would normally beat the fuck out of the guy. Yeah. But he doesn't. He just kind of agrees. He's like, yeah, I do suck. You're going to try and make me come out over time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The pissant is drink for me, though, a bartender. In other words, he's completely castrated. Well, there's no part of him that is even fighting anymore. I think he knows, you know, he knows he physically can't do it anymore. But he chooses stand up. There's the earlier scene where he goes to the club and sees the performance. And I think he recognizes something in that guy that's like, this is the closest thing to what I do.

1:54:08You are fighting the audience. And the command that guy has when he's able to throw off all these street jokes, but land them is a thing he envies. And what is Corsese's follow up, the Rage and Bull? King of Comedy. Well, is there something in between? Or is it straight? It's a good question. I believe it's a good comedy. No, it is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it is a thing. I mean, clearly, I move you about a delusional comedian. And that sticks with Tonya Rome. Yeah. There's a, there's absolutely. It's like a part two almost. Right. And that guy is much closer to being a successful comedian. Lamada just like, it's back to what we're talking about. The rhythms all wrong. You watch us stand up and he says jokes that are just a little bit off. There's the King of Comedy, the spiritual sequel to Rage and Bull. I kind of, it's part of a trilogy with Taxi Parfait. Right. Like, you know, like just like, De Niro trying to plum the depth of like a psychology week. We are like, yeah, transfixed by but terrified. I'm obsessed with being a different type of guy. But you know why though? Because he must be fascinated with De Niro.

1:55:10Yes. Squarsaysie's probably fascinated with me. I guess I'm trying to crack him a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you watch the Mean Streets and it feels like watching a director fall in love with a star. You know, it feels as extreme as Buck Donovich introducing a civil shepherd or whatever. There is those, that introduction, it's like, what the fuck is this that I have found? And I'm going to spend the rest of my life chasing this and studying this from all angles. And of course, De Niro, no doubt is aware that he seriously stepped in some shit. Yeah. Getting to work with Martin Scorsese. No one understands him better than this guy. And that's how he knows how to use him. That's, that's, he's just one of the greatest filmmakers, period end of story. He's got the right guy in his corner. It's amazing. I love the whole thing. Rare, rare, rare, rare, rare. I love them stitching to me talking about rare and peshy timing. How quick they can do the stitch up on the cut. There's little details like that.

1:56:11Nicholas Colostanto coach from Cheers. Yes. Yes. This is his last movie role. And do we know what great actor is an extra in the film? We looked this up right before, John Tutoro. John Tutoro. He's in the first club scene. Yeah. And he's on the table and who's sitting there a very young John Tutoro. That's his first credit. It's, yeah, but he doesn't say it worked. Yeah. Yeah. Um, that's sort of like the lingering element of the mob stuff, you know, that's in the movie still, but kind of, sure, tongue down. Yeah. Because like that's a different story. Yeah. Like we're trying to get inside the brain of this man. There's no doubt that the mob was, had, had to have influence on New York's boxing scene in the 40s and 30s. You know, like, but that's the least interesting thing going on in this guy's life. Like the movie is kind of like, yeah, right. That's digger girl. Yeah. Michael bottle, Luke shows in this film. Is it good? So to jerk? Okay. Like, you know, like, you know, just funny to think about. Yeah. Guys who had tiny little roles, um, there's a lot of people in the movie like the, the

1:57:11letter hanging around, but like it, it really is basically just the, the three. Yeah. Like people like Frank, being frank, Vincent Nicholas calls out, like, they're aiming out for little bits, right? Yeah. His dad's in this movie, Charles Scorsese. This is the first time. The first time is like, one of the monsters. Yes. I mean, and we talked about this in this, Chris A.Z. short episode we did on Patreon, but Italian American and American boy really, I think teach him the rhythm that he wants to replicate in his dialogue. Yeah. Right. It's how to get improv to get the feeling of that sort of conversational pattern in the back and forth. And so much of his parents fighting in Italian American is the feeling of the family fight scenes in this movie. No. And that's the other thing about this movie and like all great Scorsese movies, not all, not all of them have this, but it's, it's indelibly Italian. It is. American. Yes. A question. Is Lamata in the movie? I thought at one point that he's the referee that hands, he's definitely the belt over.

1:58:13Yeah. I think that's who he plays. To Danero and Danero finally wins the championship. That's right. There's a shot of the referee walking toward the camera. And I feel like that is Lamata, but I might be wrong. Maybe I'm wrong. I might be wrong. I may be Lamata's not in the movie. Yeah. I'm not seeing anything actually. I don't know. Not sure. He was certainly there. He said that Danero got so good at boxing that he was like, I think that guy could have like held his own in the ring. Like he was impressed with him. But obviously he's also, you know, he's being a schmoozer. A Corndyme DB Lamata's not in this. Yeah. I couldn't find him either. He does have like a weird semi resurgence of acting roles. Lamata? Yes. He's in a 87 movie called Hangman. He's a detective in maniac cop in 88. He's in a movie called mob war. So he does sort of, and he has like credits leading up to this. I can't believe you just said mob war. Why do you know mob war? I am in mob war. You're in mob war? No, I'm kidding. No, okay. You believed it though.

1:59:13I believe it. I did believe it. I did believe it. Like as a nine year old, I would be in a movie called mob war. Yeah. You could have been a little Jimmy down the street. Jimmy, Jimmy, Jimmy, Jim Blumbo. We haven't mentioned Jim Blumbo. A wild thing about this movie is that it's produced by Irwin Winkler, who not only had produced New York, New York, which was his biggest failure, but also produced the Rocky movies. Like he's willingly signing off to make an anti-Rocky. I think that was part of the appeal. Yeah, it's, it's bold of him though. Yes. It is bold of him, but I mean, he's obviously part of the problem with New York, New York is he's not someone who'd ever made a musical before. So as a producer, they keep running like wildly over schedule and all this with this, at least he knows, like exactly how to do it. But this wasn't expensive movie. Yes. Sure. It cost $18 million and it made like 25. Mm-hmm. It wasn't a success per se on release. We can talk about that. Just a couple of other things.

2:00:15You know, when they're in the final edit, they have like some deadline. It was opening on Friday and it's like Sunday. They gotta be done. They have a print. We they have to get it like over to the lab by midnight. And Marty doesn't like that there's this one scene where a minor character played by Marty's father is ordering a drink, ordering a cutie shark, the whiskey. And Marty's like, you can't hear him saying it. You can't fucking hear cutie shark. And they're like, too bad. We're done. Yeah, we got to get that. And he says, I'm going to take my name off the film. And they're just like, we can clear apparently. It's just like, yeah, okay. Well, you can take your name off the film, but it's going to the lab. Yeah. You know, like they finally had to like calm him down. And of course, as he's like, I realized I was finally I was near collapse. Like I basically had walking pneumonia. It wasn't a drug thing anymore, but the movie like just wiped me out. Mm-hmm. And it comes out. It's not really a hit, but it is well received. There are some holdouts. Can be Vincent can be in the times kind of pendant Pauline Kale,

2:01:16who's obviously tough, always tough to predict. She kind of panned it. How what the world? How what is it? Oh my what? What right with what righteousness? Can you pan raging bull? Oh my God. That disgust me. But as you said, people didn't have a frame of reference for it. It was. Oh, it gives a shit. And yes, they did. You know, citizen cane, baby. Yeah, there's a people didn't get citizen can at the time. I got I hate. Oh my God. Um, this is in raging knowing this in raging bull. Uh, king. King Lee tries to shoot Reagan the day before the Oscars and the Oscars get postponed. Well, Scorsese shows up to the Oscars for this movie surrounded by bodyguards. Yeah. I guess that's everyone's to the security was just insane. He dressed them up and just fancy text. He does an act like they were just his entourage. Mm-hmm. But he was worried that he was going to get shot. Right. Films, Gumi maker wins the only other Oscar for editing.

2:02:16And she says like it was Marty's Oscar. I felt like I was winning for the fight sequences. And those fight we can sequences were designed by him. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? Like as much as I did a good job editing the film. Like I felt like I was getting his trophy. Yes. Right. And obviously like Robert Redford wins. And ordinary people is an excellent movie. And like was kind of an earthquake. It's like this is the thing I try to tell people when they're like, I can't believe like Marty lost. It was a much bigger hit. It was a much bigger hit but it was also just like a new kind of movie in a way. And it was talking about stuff that movies weren't really like starting to talk about yet. It's kind of like upper middle class like psychological crisis. And we know how much Oscars just will not respect comedy. Sure. And ordinary people is a flat, straight, short drama. Yes. And this movie is raging bull or the chances of it winning hurt by it being somewhat funny. And it's also just a movie that everyone is not sure what to think about. I also read ordinary people is like a difficult film. It is emotionally like challenging film.

2:03:17But it ends with catharsis. It ends with the son telling the mom off. And the audience doesn't leave feeling good, but they leave feeling like some progress and knowing what they've been what they've been told to feel in that seal it. Yes. No, this is subversive. This is provocative. Yes. I also just want to call out Kathy Moriore. Most of the reviews are sort of like where the fuck did they find this person? She gets an Oscar nomination. She follows this up with neighbors, the John Aveltsin, Balushi Acroid movie. And then she gets in a really bad automobile accident and doesn't act for like another five years. And it does kind of really throw her career out of whack. She had like intensive back surgery, I believe. But also she just said that there was this thing of like everyone discovers her goes like, this is the great new Anjaneu. Immediately can you lose the accent? That there was this real push of like, how do we get rid of the thing that made you unique in the first place? That's sad. That's unfortunate. She's still working this day. She owns, I don't know if it's still open, but she owned a very popular pizza,

2:04:23Mulberry Street pizza in Beverly Hills. Yeah. I think four locations. I think it's out of something California. So that's, you know, like the film I would say is pretty quickly though, I think highly. You know what I mean? It was the most nominated film that year. Yes. And it's just kind of like maybe the financial thing is not, you know, obviously a movie like this pays long day of it. And it's when it becomes such an established classic and all that. The next one, King of Comedy, that's the one where I feel like Marty again is starting to sweat. And then like the next two movies he makes are both kind of like, well, I got to make something after hours and and age. I need to get back in the car. I'm on yes. And obviously I love both those movies, but like, you know, it's it's not until last temptation. I feel like that Marty is again making like his whatever. I got a more direct vision of his. Yes. The box office game this film Griffin came out November. I get it right. 14th.

2:05:23Okay. 1980. First in New York City, you know, unlimited release, but it is on the top 10 here. Okay. At number 10. It must have opened at like the Zigfelder something crazy person. Right. It's making 185,000. Yeah. Number one of the box office is not a film we've covered, but we've covered. Um, works one of the writers on this. We've covered her directorial works. Okay. So is it it's either a Nancy or it's Nora? Is it heartburn? Nope. Is it an Nancy? Yes. I mean, she wrote it is a private Benjamin. It's private. There we go. You got any private Benjamin thoughts? I haven't seen that movie in a very, very, I haven't seen the movie. It's fun. It's very fun. Yeah. What I like about is that it's like, you know, it's kind of dark. It's kind of all over the place. Like it's a wacky movie, but it's like it's got a, you know, opens with a death. Burn this to it. Yeah. It's a fascinating film. It was a huge hit. Yeah. And it got Nancy and she's gone. We got three. I mean, it's total. Yeah.

2:06:23And it's been number one, I think, for like two months. It's a big hit. Well, runaway smash. Number two of the box office, we just talked about the best picture winner in 1980. Ordinary people. Ordinary people. Another big hit. Uh, so, you know, we're in this like, you know, so far, like we've got a comedy. We've got a drama. This is a movie that have stood the test of time. Number three of the box office, which was, I would say, a flop. A film from a very, a very good director, a female director of a very few. Obviously, we're out there back then. But this was kind of her like mainstream swing and it doesn't work. It's a comedy and a drama. It's, I don't know if you know this movie. I mean, maybe you do. It's a, it's a female director. Is the female. Is it pretty martial? No, it wasn't directly. It's not like John McClendon's silver. It's not, but it's sort of, it's more in that realm. It's someone who had made an indie film in 1978 that isn't a wonderful, bloody whale, audio vile. Okay. And this one, we made girlfriends in 1978. This is her, this is her studio film. Yes.

2:07:23It's from Columbia. Okay. The stars are Michael Douglas and Jill Claber, who Charles Groten in a supporting role. Oh, what's this movie called? It's got a little bit of an anonymous title. After this, she only makes TV movies because like it's kind of like, well, that didn't work and you're a lady. So it's not starting over. No, it's not seems like old times. It's running out. Other movies that have posters with two smiling actors. It's got a song that's sung by Diana Ross and it's named after the song. Huh. What's it called? It's called It's My Turn. There we go. But it was kind of body by critics. It even rudely got like a golden raspberry nom and like the sort of early, evil years of that organization. And it was a one strike you're out on her career. Very much so. Yes. It's like, Jill Claber is like a divorce say maybe or she's like a professor and then she meets this like widow dad who's played by Michael Douglas and they have a, you know, romance. I think it's pretty low stakes in a way, but I've never seen it. I should. Number four at the box office. It's one of your favorite films in 1980. It's one of my favorite films. I think it's your favorite film by this director.

2:08:25We've covered it on the podcast. It's a movie thief. Nope. Nope. That was a good guess. Sologess. Yeah. It's another best picture nominee of the year. And it's another kind of like smaller director making a more mainstream film. Smaller director making more mainstream director. We've covered it on this podcast. It's one of your favorites. It's one of my favorites. It's one of my favorites. And I ranked it as their top film, you think? I think this is your favorite of his films. Well, yes. And he's obviously he's a totemic director. He recently died. Recently died. Yes. He recently died. He did. Who's that? It's like recently like last year. Oh, last year. Last year. And he's one of my guys. Oh, no. I would say not as much one of your guys. Maybe more one of my guys than your guys, given that we covered him on the show. I feel like he's more one of my guys. But this is your favorite. The biopic. It's a biopic. Whoa. Yes. It's a story, biopic, biopic.

2:09:26It's a true story. Biopic in 1980. It's not it's not star 80. No. Bob Fossy didn't die last year. Why? Why am I blanking out? Because it's sort of one people forget. It's not made for eight Oscars. Whoa. So tied raging bull for the most knobs that year actually. Who's the star of this picture? Give it away. Gone hurt. Oh, it's the elephant man. Elephant. It is my favorite. It is my favorite. You're right. Nominee for eight Oscars one. One that way. But it is. No, of course it is. Of course it is. So that's also I think more of a hit. Yeah. Yeah. That was a hit. Bob Fossy's a film from one of your favorite directors. But I think it is not one of your favorites of his. It's a sort of a more mainstream movie from head. It's not pop-eye. No. Because I love that movie. It is a movie I love. This is who's maybe your favorite director?

2:10:27Beyond Robert Altman. Beyond Robert Altman. Is it Lumet? No. That's another choice obviously for you. It's not for Hovan. No. This is like an obvious. It's a pretty big guy for you. You want to do him on the show. I've worried it would be a little same. You've worried it's a great filmmaker. As did Martin Scorsese. You've worried that it would be same. I've wanted to do him. What why am I blanking on these today? Is it a gillium? No. No. What's the genre of this movie? It's a crime thriller. Okay. Yes. It's got a sort of you know, it's like him doing his version of a crime movie. Sort of like a pop-boy. Oh, this Gloria. John Cassabetti's Gloria. There we go. Which is a film. It's not like you don't like Gloria. No, I love Gloria. But I think it's not your favorite of his. It's not my favorite, but it's up there. Okay. I love Gloria. I mean, it's a great movie. Yeah. Rules. Why did I think you didn't like it, is it? I have no idea.

2:11:27Okay. All right. I'm wrong. Yeah. I love Gloria. Do you not like any Cassabetti's movies? I've never seen Love Streams. I like Love Streams. Yeah. I've never seen Big Trouble. I've never seen the last one I haven't seen. Right. Otherwise, I think I like them all. Do you like Cassabetti's? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah. I guess I feel like I want to say every time I've watched a Cassabetti's film, I feel the... This is weird to say, but I feel the camera in a weird way. It makes the camera a doubts itself. A little bit. It sure kind of takes me out. Yeah. But I'm not wrong. That Gloria is like, you know, him being like... It was him trying to play the studio game. Yeah. Like, can I make you a more kind of straightforward like movie with a premise that you can kind

2:12:28of sell and... And it did fairly well, right? It did fairly well. And she got an Oscar nominee. And she's fucking rocks in it. Yeah. But it still has plenty of people screaming while the camera is close to their face. And then... And then the little boy won the razzie, I believe, which was really... This is the first year of the razzies where they're like, do we hate the shining? Yeah. And then later, even the razzies are somewhat embarrassed by their first, you know, awards. Number six at the box office. So that was the five. Number six is a fade to black, which is a horror like comedy. It's like a weird little indie movie where a cinnophile starts to turn into like famous film characters to kill people. That sounds good. I've never seen it. It sounds very cool. Yeah. I've seen it like written up as a sort of like... We're gotten in class at... Very popular in France. And that's when you know a movie is normal. Of course. Number seven at the box office is the musical drama, the idol maker. Oh, yeah. The first Taylor Hackford film. Yes. Speaking of right.

2:13:28Would you ruin? I'm a yes, correct. Ray Sharky? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know anything about it, except that it's sort of like about a singer like who becomes famous. It's about, it's about like a producer manager. I think it's about the one who makes the idol maker. I heard a story about a party at Ray Sharky's house in the early eighties in the Hollywood Hills in which a live pig was slaughtered. Ray Sharky, one of the darkest figures of the post-New Hollywood movement. Yes. I believe that story. If you go to Ray Sharky's Wikipedia page, you'll believe any story about him. Number eight at the box office is the stuntman, the great Peter R. Toulouse movie, Richard Rosh. A beautiful film. Yep. Number nine is a movie I've never heard of called Kill or Be Killed, which is, oh, a South African martial arts film. Cool. That was wrote. It's called Karate Olympiad, Retitled Kill or Be Killed and released in 1980 in the United

2:14:32States. Wow. Wow. Never heard of it. And number 10 of the box office, Raging Bull. That's the box office of the year. Very, a very interesting package of movies. People had interesting movies to show you in nineteen. They did things we know. And I mean like, warrior ordinary people, elephant man, or all of the top of our. Take your pick. It's a good, it's a good, it's a good, it's a good, it's a good, it's a good, it's a good so that's Raging Bull. David, anything you want to plug? Plug. Start a podcast. Plug. I mean, plug. It's great. I hate to hear myself do this, but I'm in a sports film. It's my first sports film called Mr. relevant. I'm out Christmas day, a week after, doomsday and doomsday. Perfect. Perfect. Perfect. It's an alternative film to those big, giant movies. Go see it. I hear it's lovely. I have yet to see it. I hear it's wonderful. Testing through the roof to be mentioned. We mentioned testing through the roof. It's testing through the roof.

2:15:32So that's all I got. That and I'm playing a grateful dead show tomorrow night. This won't air. No, this one time. I'm going to come out. This is going to come out a month, but I'm going to plug it. It's a problem. Yes. That it will be months late. You're playing. I'm playing at the Orange Lantern in Paramus, New Jersey. Playing grateful dead. I'm grateful dead with a band called Golden String Fiddle. Okay. By the time you hear this, I will have played the show. Okay. I just want to let people know I'm doing. That's what I do with my life. I play it. A place is called the Orange Lantern in Paramus. Guitar? No, I play bongos if you must know. I really, but I sing the only reason I play bongos is because all I did was sing. You needed something to do with it. I was asked to pick up an instrument and the easiest thing was the bongos. Perfect. Yeah. An incredible bongo play. I believe it. You have the intensity for it.

2:16:32I'm a real bongo boy. Yeah. Thank you for being here. Dude, you guys are awesome. And this one, it really is an honor to be asked to do this particular film. We were floating names. We were floating ideas. I think in your name came up, it felt kind of right. I'm just glad you've never asked me to do a Holocaust thing, drama, or some sort of Jewish-themed thing. No, Talmudic movies. I really appreciate that. Yes. I figured you guys have that covered to some extent. Do you feel like that's usually what you get asked to do? I just don't know. No, I'm not saying that. I just don't like the idea that I'm the go-to Jew for that. I have no opinion on those films. Sure. Yeah. Tune in next week for the King of Comedy. We've got a stopper. Yes, we've got a stopper. Yes, we've got a stopper. The King of Comedy, him, love it. Love it. We're getting into it. Is Rupert Pumpkin funny? Sure. Argument is almost. Yeah. He got close. Over on Patreon, a few days ago, we really started episode on the last Waltz.

2:17:34Hey, we did it. We're sorry it's on Patreon. This is the longest filmography we've ever covered. What are you doing beyond the King of Comedy? We're doing last temptation. We're doing everything. We're doing everything. We're doing everything. We're doing everything. That's why last Waltz is on Patreon, because we're doing everything. You're doing what is the one with Brad Pitt? The one with Brad Pitt. Yeah. You got to do that one. What's the one with Brad Pitt? You said everything. Isn't it with Brad Pitt? I don't think so. You think you depart it? It's going to India. No. Seven years into bed. You're confusing seven years into bed with Brad Pitt. You're conflating Kundun and seven years into the whole world. Two films that angered the Chinese government. They were released by Hollywood. The same time. The similar time. Right, right. Like, 97, 98. You know, I've never seen seven years into bed. I haven't either. That was a classic where people were like, wow, the studio's really taking a risk with this and Pitt's taking a risk in China's like condemning the film. And it came out and everyone was like, beautiful mountains. The mountains are fucking great in the league. And how about the film? I mean, he climbed over all this mountains.

2:18:35Like they had nothing to say about it. Should we watch it? I'll check it out. Yeah. Wait, who's the lead in seven years into bed? Brad Pitt. Oh, it is Brad. But that's not for Shazie. No, no, no, no. Shazie did Kundun. Seven years lead of Kundun. A trial. A Chinese man. I mean, like some playing the, well, you see why it's an easy, of course. It would be funny if Pitt was like, I will be playing the Dalai Lama. Yeah. Any questions? Pretty bold. Pretty bold. No, he's playing like, you know, right? Like, he was like a mountaineer. Yeah. Climbed Everest. I think he was there for like six years, eight years. Something like that. Oh, yeah. Thank you all for listening. Thank you for listening. Thank you for being here, Kramé. Mm-hmm. Thank you for having me. It's a lovely, this is great. There's a brain trust here. That's what we call ourselves. We call ourselves the brain trust. Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe. And as always, David, you fuck my wife.

2:19:39You fuck my wife. Look at me. Look at me. Look at me. Answer my question. You fuck my wife? You fuck my wife? What kind of a question is that? I mean, I'm mad. You asked the question. What do you get both, bigot? I like to check with Griffin and David as hosted by Griffin Newman and David Simms. Our executive producer is me Ben Hossley. Our creative producer is Marie Barty Salinas and our associate producer is AJ McKeein. This show is mixed and edited by AJ McKeein and Alan Smithy. Research by JJ Birch. Our theme song is by Lane Montgomery in the Great American novel, with additional music by Alex Mitchell. Our work by Joe Bowen, Holly Moss, and Pat Reynolds. Our production assistant is Minick. Special thanks to David Cho, Jordan Fish, and Nate Patterson for their production help. Head over to blankcheckpod.com for links to all of the real nerdy shit. In our Patreon, blankcheck special features for exclusive franchise commentaries and

2:20:40bonus episodes. Follow us on social at blankcheckpod. Subscribe to our weekly newsletter, checkbook on substack. This podcast is created and produced by blankcheckproduction.