Raves in the Nave: Has St Paul’s Lost the Plot?

0:00And you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free. This is your Reverend, Faith and current affairs. Hello everyone, welcome to a Reverend Faith and current affairs. It's me, J.B. Franklin, Tom Pellum, joining me today. Tom, you've been away for a while. I think you've been on holiday and doing various enjoyable things, haven't you? I have. I went to Normandy back in the August and then some of the other things. It's sort of been the run up into term time. But had a lovely time. I went to Ulgate. What's that? That's a town. It's a town near Christchurch. That's German. Ulgate. That's about Ulgate, but you don't say that. Ulgate. Ulgate. You were saying, Ulgate. I know, it's not how you say it in French as you don't say that. H, not at the beginning. Ulgate. Ulgate. It's near... So I think it's on the East Normandy coast.

1:03So it's in the Bay of the Seine River and you're looking across on the left here, on the beach there, to a sword beach and on the right you look towards La Arve. And the... I mean, it's sort of... It's always been a sort of Parisian resort. So the houses are quite interesting. Lots of second homes. It was made as a beachside resort. Lovely beach. So played with the kids. On the beach in the sand, which was lovely. They all had a great one. Went away from a drought to discover it's just torrential rain for the whole, you know, first three days we were there, which is great when you're camping. We are. Can imagine it's delightful. Did you have a family screening of saving private Ryan? Well, Omaha's quite a long way to the west of where we were. How was it? Yeah. That would be fun. I don't know how you'd do it, though. Would you... With a six-year-old, I mean, it would be a bit traumatic. Might be. It might be a bit too early. It's not to gauge these things, isn't it?

2:03Because you want to educate them. But then at the same time, you don't want them to be scarred from a very young age. So... Tricky. But, yeah, it was... We didn't really do the normal landings, I think we thought. But it's... If you know the fossil beds in lime, Regis, it's the same beach, same fossil beds at... OK, so there's some lovely... To get some lovely fossils from the rocks, sort of, like... Hmm. Lots of bivoules. Very good. Very exciting. Wow. That's good, Tom. Well, it's good to have you back. As you know, I've been holding the fort by myself, talking about all sorts of controversial things, getting loads of interesting comments and... So far, you've managed not to get into too much trouble. What hopes? No, nobody cares. Nobody cares what I'm doing, Tom. I mean, obviously, apart from the people listening to the show, they all care, but... You know, the higher ups, as you know, they just ignore most of the time our commentary. Which is fine, I don't mind. Anyway, so I was going to say thanks to everyone who does comment and who writes in.

3:08Please do like and subscribe the show and click the little bell on YouTube so you don't miss an episode. And if you do have any comments or questions, please email the show at the RevrimPod at gmail.com. Actually, Tom, I have got a little thing for myself. I've got a little banner for myself there. You see that? I should have one for you as well. I'll make one now. How would you like to be known as Reverend Tom Pellum? Thomas Pellum. Yeah, Thomas Pellum. Thomas Pellum. And what's the name of your benefit? The benefits of Burwosh, Burwosh, and Etchingham. Benefits of Burwosh, and I was trying to work out how to spell all these words. Burwosh, and Etchingham. Good. Okay, all right, now I have this save for next time as well. So here we go. So Thomas Pellum. Reverend Tom Pellum. There we go. Add banner. So it's me, Reverend Dr. Jamie Frenin, and the Reverend Tom Pellum. Benefits of Burwosh, Burwosh, and Wilder, and Etchingham. Is that correct? That's right. It is. What's up? The... And I can do this.

4:08Well, keep talking, keep talking. That's it. Go on. You're going to... That's the wrong way. He's on the wrong one. Oh, good to speech over. This is making me feel ill. That's better. I quite like that. No, that's just me. Sorry, I'm not doing that. He's... He's doing it. So they don't see my... The mess in the corner of my room. Well, there we go. There we go. Yeah, that's very professional looking. Sorry to all the audio listeners. That's why they're just... Now I'm just... Just Tom on the screen with his title up. It's very professional. It's like being on GB News. So, I told him, Cammy, I'm with what you're saying. I can't really remember what I'm saying, because you've been mucking around with the... Banners, Jamie. Oh, yeah. You've fussed correctly. And where was I? We should probably move on from catching up to some sort of content that people are going to be interested in. Yeah, of course. Of course, but people are going to be interested in this as well. Of course, of course. Right, let's do our... Let's do our... By the way, we have got a very exciting live event, but it's being organised by Daniel and a such. I don't think we're ready to release the DJ too much. I do, I even think the DJ is.

5:09I'm not sure you even know that. From our correspondence, Tom, it's appeared to me that you don't know what the data is. So I think we need to get the date in all of our diaries, at least, before we announce it to the thousands of people who are going to turn up to this show. I don't know how to come. He's thrown around so many dates that I wasn't sure which one actually is the... Anyway, I'm sure Daniel is... Daniel is more... He's a man of concepts, isn't he? That's a bit like that. We're waiting for the details. That's a big picture. Big picture ideas at the moment, an event somewhere at some point. Well, we know it's probably going to be in London, but we will release some dates soon, very soon. If it all falls apart, we should all just meet up in London for a meal. Well, that would be lovely, but that's... It's a random 12-ish, isn't it? Well, we could sell a ticket to sit beside us. Exclusive opportunity to eat with the revs. Only £500. £500.

6:10Meal not included, yeah. Come on, we didn't include the meal for that. We probably would. Because we did get £100 out of that, isn't it? Easily £150. I'd have been so much there to buy this for a meal. If they did, of course, £100. We'd get £400 divided by £3, which is £130. Isn't it? Which is very nice. Anyway, should we move on? You're better if you're interested in half of this nonsense. Can you imagine? I wouldn't accept that if someone had said that. No, I would. I'll have dinner with you and I'll pay you £500 for the privilege of time. I don't feel very comfortable with this. You'd have to be on fire, wouldn't you? You'd have to really be a bit artificial. Yeah. Just a little. Yeah, you would. I think I'd have to be really desperate. We're running out of money and my children couldn't eat or something. And then I'd say, OK, but I don't think I would accept that money. Can we go ahead and put my children as well? Yeah. Exactly. OK. We're going to do a song, won't we, Jamie? We're doing the shortest song. The shortest song in the... In the... In the...

7:10In the solter. I was trying to find the word for what the Psalms are for a minute in the solter. Short to Psalter. What we say is the shortest song. I think we've just decided it's the shortest song without actually checking. So I know you want to check now, Tom. This is the sort of high level preparation that people expect. This is the level of biblical knowledge that we were prepared to have by Cudstown Theological College, wasn't it? This is the kind of thing we learn in our classes. So if you don't know which is the shortest Psalm, then ask the internet and it will tell you. Didn't even have an AI well, was that? Yes, yes. Psalm 113 is the shortest Psalm. Just two verses long. That's a... That's a... So also the shortest chapter in the entire Bible. Is it really? Yeah. Well, so the Psalms have the shortest and the longest chapter in the entire Bible, because of course, Psalm 119 is the longest. There are two Psalms later, yeah. And two Psalms later. Incredible.

8:10All right. So, why don't you say the Lord's Prayer, Tom, and then I'll read the Psalm. All right. Let's pray. Our Father, we're chart in heaven. Hello, I'd be thine. My kingdom come. I will be done in earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive them that trespass against us. The less not into temptation but to deliver us from evil. Amen. Amen. Okay. So Psalm 117. Shortest Psalm and chapter in the Bible. Oh, praise the Lord, will ye heathen? Praise him, will ye nations, for his merciful kindness is ever more and more towards us. And the truth of the Lord in juroth forever. Praise the Lord. Oh, it's fair. It's good, isn't it? It's one of my favorite, because it really is good. A Reformation theology coming out of here. And the reason being is, you know, why are we praising the Lord? We're praising the Lord because he's faithful towards us.

9:11It's a response to the God's faithfulness. Even though the Psalm puts it backwards, you know, this idea that everyone should praise the Lord because he's faithful towards us. Now, the reason I say it's good, Reformation theology is because when Kramler came to do the book of a prayer, he did not really move the glory after the Eucharistic prayer and after the reception of the bread and wine. Because the idea is that you respond in praise to the gifts of God. And it's, you know, key. It's that way around. So this is sort of moment. And it's a bit weird, because if you're used to the Roman order where the glory comes sort of at the beginning after. I always think it's a bit strange because you have the confession and then you have the absolution. And it's like, all right, now we're going to praise God for our absolution. And I guess that's sort of makes sense. But in the book of a prayer, there are sort of cycles of repentance. The final one, ending with the glory, which is a sort of so they get bigger and bigger throughout.

10:13So first you're confronted with the with the with the Tenka moments and then. And the words, which then you respond to with the greed. And then you'll then you'll have the sort of cycle around the the offer tree. And then you have this final cycle around the Eucharist, which ends with the great acclamation of the glory. So the idea is that God has been steadfast and great towards us. And so therefore, as a result, all people should give thanks to him. So yes. So like the kind of Augustinian idea as well, there isn't that grace precedes our response to God. And that's I've been reading, I've been rereading recently confessions and Augustinian confessions. And that's a very, very strong theme in that he's constantly praying and saying, I was doing this and that and I was wondering far from you. And yet nevertheless, you were doing this and this and drawing me to yourself, even though I was unaware. And that sort of that sort of idea. What do you make about the first verse there Tom?

11:13Why is it addressed to the heathen and the nations rather than to Israel? And how can God be said to have been faithful to the heathen nations rather than just specifically to Israel in this context? Well, I presume there's a sort of eschatological kind of element to the Psalm. When you have sort of the heathens coming to God, it tends to be with that idea of, you know, from Isaiah or from Hosea, one day the mountain, the God will draw all peoples to him. And through Israel, all the world will be saved. Of course, that prophecy is fulfilled in Christ Jesus and upon the cross. So I would say I would see it as a sort of as a pointing towards a day where all people are redeemed in the Lord. But I mean, you could also, I guess, read into it sort of, you know, a response to common grace as well.

12:13Not just necessarily the love of God towards us, towards the world, towards giving us beauty, giving us love, giving us existence and life. And hope is sufficient for all people to know and praise him. And I think Paul probably agree with that in Romans 1, you know, certainly if it's enough to condemn, it should be enough to lift your heart. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I'll see. You maybe think also of Psalm 67, which starts with God be merciful to us and bless us. And then it goes on to that thy way may be known upon earth by saving health among all nations. Let the people praise the God. Yeah, let all the people praise the O let the nations rejoice and be glad. And so on and so forth. So that does occur elsewhere in the Psalms, isn't it? That's an exaltation to, I mean, not even just the nations, I suppose, though, there's also like the exaltation to the creation itself to praise God. So that's sort of a theme in the Psalms as well, so it makes sense. All right. Well, good. I think we've got quite a lot out of that.

13:14The shortest, the shortest Psalm in the shortest chapter in the Bible. We could probably carry on talking about that for ages. Oh, yeah. The subject of praising God is a pretty big one. Yeah. And it's relevant to the first story we're going to talk about today. So I'm going to do a little screen share. It's on because we're so sophisticated nowadays. Although actually I've forgotten how to do it, which is rather, which is rather embarrassing. So sophisticated. So it's so professional. I know. It's incredibly, incredibly embarrassing. Anyway, yes, here we go, Tom. The first story is this, as you can see here, said, eat, can. We're going to continue on. Tweeting out. Fabric. St. Paul's Cathedral. Name a more iconic duo. I mean, that's just tempting fate, isn't it? That's just that. Can you name it? Can you name a more iconic duo? Go on, let's try it. All right. I mean, let Lenin and McCartney. Well, that's just a good idea. Starskin Hatch. Starskin Hatch is definitely quite iconic. I mean, you know, Paul and Barnabas. Paul and Barnabas, yeah. You must be called Paul and Timothy, surely.

14:15Paul and Timothy, yeah. Paul and Timothy, I mean, that lots of Paul could, there could be lots of Paul's and people, because he was quite good at working with people. So, then he says, I mean, we could think of some more, I'm sure. Bringing together, I mean, you and me, Tom, Peleman Franklin. Bringing together these two institutions will create a one-of-a-kind experience, pairing world-class music with one of our most special landmarks. I mean, so this is the story. Well, cast music is a strong claim, isn't it? Well, I think the thing is strong, is we don't actually know. What's going to happen yet? But why don't we, before we go into that? Why don't we just say what's going on here? It's a fabric, for people who don't know. Fabric Knight is a Knight Club, isn't it, in London? Quite famous. Well, I think it's like a sort of... It's a brand. It's a series of... Yeah, it's a brand. It's a brand, I think, yeah. Yeah. It's a brand. And so, following in the footsteps of Canterbury, Confedial and various others, well-worn, the fabric are going to start launching music events

15:17through 2030 in St Paul's Cathedral. And I mean, we've had this argument, we've had this for over Canterbury and various other places. Obviously, the chapter of St Paul's of Loot Academy, and they've done it so well, and it's been so controversy-free that we're just going to do it, because there's no... I think we should have a look at some of the critiques here, because to be honest, I'm not sure that this is actually as outrageous as I put my cars on the table. I'm going to be slightly more dubbous here than I normally am to them. As you know, I'm normally extremely hawkish about everything. But as I understand it, St Paul's Cathedral have come out and said that these are going to be seen in the book, that these are going to be seated concerts, and that a cannon, as in a priest, not like a boom, boom cannon, is going to announce beforehand that the audience must remain seated

16:20during these concerts. So I don't know whether that's a response to the backlash and whether they're just backtracking there, or whether that is genuine or not. But if that is the case, I mean, so a couple of things, if that is the case, then it's what Cathedral has been doing for decades and indeed St Paul's Cathedral itself has been staging concerts for a long time. I don't know how long, but clearly it has been for a long time. And then on the other hands, what was sorry, there was another thing I was going to say about that, well, I suppose the strange thing about that is that the association with a fabric nightclub brand... Well, I was going to say they're not really about... They're not really a well-known concert provider, are they? I mean, St Paul's already... What do they mean by concerts? You know, I mean... And who... If it's going to be the sort of music... If it's going to be the sort of music that's fabric a well-known for, which is obviously modern dance,

17:21and that sort of artist surrounds that, electronics, then people are really going to want to go and sit down and talk about St Paul's Cathedral and listen to it as a question. Yeah, but I mean, on the face of it, if you were to take it, if you were to try and make the most positive case for it possible, and like I say, I'm not massively in favour of churches being used all the time for these sorts of things, but I'm not massively against classical concerts and churches and things like that. Well, we do as well here, and I used to be a perjure at Winchester Cathedral, and we used to build all the staging for them and everything like that. And I think as long as they're done, you know, tastefully, and the music is tasteful and the building is treatable respect. I don't really massively have anything against that as such. So if it's that, then I don't really have any problem with it, and I think the kind of outrage is somewhat... It's a bit confected, isn't it? And there's been a tweet one tweet in particular, which I'll try and find, but there's...

18:23It's probably here, yes, so... Actually, it's basically a clip of something happening in a church somewhere, and I'll add it to the stage and show you it. But it's not a clip of... of St Paul's Cathedral, right? But it's been doing the rounds as though it is. And this is the kind of thing I think we've spoken about it before. Haven't we, like, there it is for people who can see on the left-hand side there. It's something going on in a church, and it looks like quite a large church, and it looks very... It's not St Paul's Cathedral. But it's not St Paul's Cathedral, and there's actually even an image of St Paul's Cathedral next to it. It's clearly not the same church, but this clip has been circulated, and people are saying, oh, this is sacrilegious, this is an outrage. And, yeah, I mean, looking at that, I would say, that probably is a sacrilegious outrage, but that's not St Paul's Cathedral. So you can't say, oh, this is an outrage. Look at what St Paul's Cathedral is doing. If the clip isn't actually from St Paul's Cathedral.

19:25The fact that it has a massive... There's a huge crucifix hanging from the ceiling in that clip, which I mean, is not particularly Anglican looking, is it? I suspect that's somewhere on the continent, or... Well, I mean, what kind of church would that be? It's hard to say, isn't it? And that looks like even a different church. It looks like two different churches in this clip. And it does look terrible, obviously. It's absolutely awful, but it doesn't look Anglican, and it's certainly not St Paul's Cathedral. That's not actually the tweet it originates from, but it is still, as you can see, it's criticizing. We condemn this sacrilegious, and call on biblical Christian leaders across Britain to do likewise, and see this despicable decision reversed. I just think it's a bit... At this stage, I think it's a bit over the top, personally. Yeah, until the details come out. And that said, there are problems with, I think, with modern dance music. Being sort of used at these... I think there's a difference. We sort of had the hashtag that's argument before. There's a sort of difference between, say, you know, a symphony and, you know, J.Z.

20:29Yeah. In terms of, like, what's edifying and what's, and also the content being, over at the sexualized, et cetera. So, you know, there is a question about Canon Lord Ali, not supposed to allow events in churches that are unseemly. And, you know, that's the case, whether you're a cathedral, whether you're St. Bob's parish church with 300 people living in the village. You know, it's the same set of standards apply. So, I would worry about that, especially this sort of fabric, kind of nightclub, kind of vibe, equally. There's quite a lot of people who are complaining about it. You've got to ask, you know, how much are you funding your local parish church? You know, we need to make, you know, we do need to bring people in, sell content tickets, et cetera. Some false cathedral is going to be a big income, unfortunately. I can't make much money from content tickets in my churches, because they're too small. Yours is probably all right. Because you've got a nice big capacity, haven't you?

21:31But, you know, I have a good church. Our capacity isn't actually as large as you might think, because the way the seating is laid out. But yeah, more than you would. Whereas, mine and mine are tend to be small bit as churches, and actually you need to sell sort of 500 tickets to a concert to make it, just to even start making money. So, you know, some pools at least can get less sort of thousand people in that acquired. So, make it worthwhile. If you're paying artists, which of course we should. Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. It's difficult, it's difficult, isn't it? Because I mean, I'm completely against all this like rave and the nave stuff, and like drinking and, you know, all this kind of stuff in doing all these things, like treating a church like a nightclub, I think, is fundamentally wrong. I just, my only question is whether we have drinks at the event. But we have drinks at the event, Jamie. Well, yeah, we have drinks after our evening masses, when it's a festive day, but that's a different thing to like having, you know, like blaring music and like strobe lights and people like, you know, getting off with each other and going outside and, you know, going to toilets and snorting cocaine or whatever it is that might, might,

22:33none of that happens after our evening masses. I can tell you, well, at least not last minute. That's right. That's right. It's suspicious out of the hall toilets. And if it did, if it did, I would have stern words to say to whoever it was that was involved. So, we're not going to be having any more drinks after our festive masses. If I keep on finding cocaine, smeared around the toilet bowl. Thank you very much. Should we look at some of the tweets? So, let me just, again, get this up here. So, the top tweet associated with this one is Douglas Murray's tweet, where he says, so he's retweeted, so he's retweeted, so he can't fabric some poor cathedral name or more iconic duo. And he said London Central Mosque is also an iconic venue. When's the rave? Good to tweet. I mean, I would debate whether it's actually an iconic venue, but okay. London Central Mosque. Yeah, I don't actually know anything about London. Where is it? Where is London Central Mosque? Yeah, exactly.

23:33Yeah, is it? Is it? And, yeah, I mean, this name and more iconic duo thing is very... It's like he's baiting people, isn't it? I think Cediccan. I mean, Cediccan is... He is a stereo, isn't he? He likes to stereo. More iconic, I think. The Chaplin Brothers. Definitely the Chaplin Brothers. The lead to you? To me, to you? Is that the Chaplin Brothers? No, it's not the Chaplin Brothers. I thought it was just the one Chaplin. You're right. It's just Chaplin Chaplin. Who is it? You're thinking of that children's TV duo, aren't you? What are they called? Who are the Chaplin Brothers? The Chaplin Brothers. The Chaplin Brothers. The Chaplin Brothers. That's it. Chaplin Brothers. Don't confuse them with Chaplin. That's a very different one. Very similar sort of comedy brothers. The Chaplin Brothers. What are the things that you're talking about? Rigs in metal in Leethaweapon. That's a good duo, isn't it? They're a lot of great duo. The two guys from the Detectress show. Have you watched Detectress or anything like that? I've just started watching it. Actually Jamie. Someone else. Just finished episode two yesterday, enjoying it.

24:33It's really good, isn't it? Very gentle. Well, it's very gentle comedy, isn't it? We're enjoying that because sometimes it's... It's not much. It's quite edifying. Yeah. There's a lot of... There's a lot of filth out there nowadays. And it's... I think Mackenzie Crook... I mean, he's got there by talent, hasn't he? He's not the kind of person. There's no other reason he's... There's no other reason he's successful. Who can see what I mean? Who's Mackenzie Crook? He's the writer and the star. He's the right place, he plays Gareth in the office. And he's the star of Detectress along with Toby Jones. Yeah, it's very good. Anyway, let's look at this tweet by Richard Bush, Robert Barron, obviously a Roman Catholic bishop. And I'm interested in what you think of this Tom from your reform perspective. So let's have a read of this. Word has just come down that St Paul's Cathedral in London, the second most important church in the Anglican world. I mean, is that true? Has imitated Canisbury Cathedral and permitting, quote, raves nightclub-like entertainments to take place in its confines? The usual reason for acquiescing to this have been trotted out, reaching out to the young, trying to get with the times, etc.

25:33But this development simply shows that the leadership of the church in England has lost any sense with a crucial distinction between the sacred and the secular. Across the centuries and across the cultures, our ancestors seem to have intuitively grasped the importance of this Tom demarcation. Whereas the secular is the arena of ordinary experience and activity, the sacred is another realm, a different dimension. Accordingly, in the proper sacred space, one is lifted out to the conventional and introduced into the Numinus. This is why Christian cathedrals are filled with images of saints and angels and why the interiors are meant first to disobey us and then to reorientate us towards the divine. It's also why, in the initiation ritual, as a primal people, a young person is purposely ripped out of the ordinary and introduced into the mythic, mystic dimension. And it's why, throughout the Bible, sacred spaces are carefully set apart from common spaces. The contemporary West is quite literally the first culture in human history that is in danger of collapsing the sacred into the secular or better losing a sense of the difference between the two. This is doing enormous damage, especially to young people whose lives have been flattened into a preoccupation with money, wildly success and material things.

26:35The church indeed should go out into the secular space to find those who have wandered away from God, but it should then lead those wanderers back to the holy. Having raves in the naith is one of the most sacred places in the Christian world, I'm sad to say, another sign of our pitiful surrender to ideological secularism. I mean, who is Robert Bound? He's a Roman Catholic bishop. He thinks he's the bishop of California. He's a very, very well-known kind of media bishop. He has an organization called Word on Fire. He makes lots of videos. He's very well-known and sort of online space. I have some issues with some of what he says there. I think I'm not sure that in the Bible, I mean, the sacred spaces that were set up in the Old Testament are kind of deconstructed in the New, aren't they? Which is one of the characteristics of Christianity, is that the temple becomes internal in the new city of God. There is no temple. The sacred space is the place where God and man are united

27:39is no longer in the holy of holies within the Jerusalem temple, but within the heart where the Holy Spirit dwells. I'd also kind of not sure that this idea of collapsing the sacred into the secular or losing the sense of any difference from the two is an interesting one, because actually, I think the enchanted world of the medieval religion was much more collapsed. And actually having kind of categories of sacred and secular in the way that he's talking there is a post-enlightenment idea. I don't know what you've probably done more thinking about that than I have, Jamie. But actually, the Roman world didn't see a sacred and a secular world. The two coexisted overlap and collapsed into each other regularly. The household gods were not just in a temple they were in and around and interacting with the numinous and the material were not separated in this way.

28:40So I'm not quite sure about that idea either. I'm not sure it's a helpful idea to have a clear separation between sacred and secular. What do you, can you respond to any of that, Jamie? Well, yeah, no, I'd be reasonably on board with what he says here. I think it's kind of on some levels. So I think that, yeah, I think, I do think that we should have sacred spaces, say the spaces that are set apart and treated as holy and places where, in the words of Tios Eliot prayer has been valid and all that sort of stuff. So I do think there is a kind of desegration that happens when these sorts of spaces are used for these sorts of activities, definitely. And I think in the sort of theological language I suppose I'd use is around sacramentality. You know, it's that these places are kind of, you know, they're set apart in a special way so that we might sort of use them to pray and to encounter the divine

29:42and to see something of God in that sense. So I wouldn't massively have a problem with that. I think the more sort of problematic thing I'd say is, firstly, I don't really think this is a fair characterization of what's happened at least. I don't know that yet. And also when he says this development simply shows that the leadership of the Church of England has lost any sense of the crucial distinction between the sacred and secular. I do agree that I think lots of the episcopate is really secularized in the way that it approaches the sacred. So that's different from the claiming there's a, they've lost the distinction between the two. I mean, I'd say they, they're not, there's all their loss of difference. They've just become, become secular. They've become secularized. And it's in, I guess like the question is, can you, can you sort of apply what's happened to the, EG, the episcopate and the kind of higher ups in the Church of England? Can you say that there's a link between that and the way that they treat Church buildings? I think it probably can say that. I don't think that's necessarily unfair. But what I was going to say again is that this isn't about really the leadership of the Church of England as such.

30:43This is about the Dean and chapter of St Paul's Cathedral and what they've decided to do with their, with their church. So it's just, it's just a bit of a, it's a blanket statement, isn't it? And I'm always, I always sort of, sort of slightly, shadow when I hear things like that because Bristle, I suppose, I would say, because it's, it's obviously not the case that all priests and, you know, a laity or whomever in the Church of England have become secularized. And I don't like this kind of like broad brush, kind of dismissal of the Church of England. When, you know, a group like the Dean and chapter of St Paul's Cathedral have made a decision to, you know, e.g. turn a church into an like club, which we don't even know is the case in, in this, in this matter. I do, I do think, though, the point he's making about this is damaging. I do think that's true. I think it gives like the wrong impressions people and the cut through, the cut through is all negative, isn't it? It's like all the presses negative. I found one, I found one slightly sympathetic article

31:46by that comedian Simon Jones, which is called, sorry, Simon Evans, sorry, which is called, if St Paul's survived the blitz, it can survive an evening of techno. And he's, he's trying to make the point that it's actually not as sacrilegious as it sounds. And other people have said similar things, you know, the naiveth, St Paul's has been used for like a cattle market and all those kind of things. So I don't know. And then, not the current building, surely. I think, I can't remember who is making that point. Maybe they were talking about the medieval building. And of course, you also get the Roman Catholics. I mean, Barren's intervention is fairly tame, you know, to be honest with you. You get the Gava Nation does of this world, who have piled in and they've, you know, used it as an opportunity to talk about how terrible the church of England is in general and how if one should become a Roman Catholic, and all this kind of stuff. And, you know, that, I mean, that's what he always does. Tell surprise, yeah. Yeah, here it is. I'll read it out, actually. I've got it here.

32:47And I'll just, sorry, I'm still, I'm still learning how to use this. And to be honest with you, Tom, having you on this is really helpful because it means that you can talk, well, I try and get the things up. Yeah, this is the Gava Nation and Tweet. I was talking about built in 1710, long after the Protestant state had outlawed the celebration and the gift of the mass. St. Paul had never been, he probably meant St. Paul's. He doesn't mean St. Paul himself. St. Paul has never been a place that has welcomed or received the body and blood of Christ in anything but a semiotic simulation. There are no martyrs relics or holy stones. I'm not really sure what he means by holy stones, but nonetheless. Has he become a pagan? Is he? Is he going to be over a stone hinge, standing on a cross? Probably. Like a mega lift. There are no martyrs relics or a mega-lithic holy stones, but nonetheless, this act is a sign of degraded apostasy, which is a betrayal of all the faithful Christian people who said their prayers.

33:47Well, they weren't faithful because they haven't had the mass anyway. Okay, go. Well, yeah, exactly. It is the lack of shame or awareness by the Anglicans astounding. All of us. I mean, hang on a second. Hang on a second. That sentence doesn't make any sense. What do you think about some post-apocalypticism? What kind of religious people are they, Ashendras? What Christian communities have ever prostituted its possessions to the extent? I mean, he's kind of even with my sort of more sympatheticism. A view of the Roman Catholic Church. He's kind of tempting me to say something polemical there when he says that last thing. I kind of want to go all for 16th century on him, but I won't. As you know, Tom, I'm very ecumenical. But obviously people like Ashendras use every opportunity.

34:49I mean, if you just look through his most recent tweets, they're all about the Church of England. It's very sad. It's very sad. It's like, you know, you just can't get away from it. Just be a Roman Catholic, and stop worrying. Look, you know. Yeah, I would. Yes. And he's also retweeted that video that I was talking about. I think that looks like a Roman Catholic Church to me. It could be a high-englican sort of Episcopal or something, I mean, possibly. But it looks quite Roman Catholic with that huge great crease of fix. Because we burnt all ours because they're idolatrous. Sorry, Gavin. And you know, the thing is as well with Gavin Ashendras, I think, you know, we've met him, hasn't haven't we? He's a perfectly nice, reasonable person, everything. I feel like reasonable. Well, he's a perfectly decent person, kind of. Well, he was behaving in a bit of a silly way, in my opinion, but anyway, never mind. What I was going to say is he's very critical of the late modern secular west and all of that kind of decadence and everything.

35:49Lots of things that we would be concerned about as well. And I just think, well, you know, why don't we work together in promoting the Christian message rather than being so sectarian about it, and so sort of insistent that all other Christians, particularly Anglicans, are so terrible? And that's the thing I don't like. And I think it's perhaps it's easier for Anglicans to not have that kind of sectarianism because we don't claim to be the only church. Anyway, so I think we've probably said enough about that. So we'd let's talk about the other big story that sort of came through, sort of relevant, which Tom, as you know, the church times has been reporting with Glee, which is that our friend James Orr has been in the news. That's an eight Tom. Do you want to? Yeah. So James Orr, who is a professor in Cambridge and who we know through his, you've spoken a couple of them. How many Jamie and attended a couple of his? Yeah, the Trinity forum. The Trinity forum.

36:49The Trinity forum. Which were very identifying sort of he, he, he, he, for a few years ago, became head of policy for reform UK. At the time I, I said it was broadly positive move because one of my concerns about reform has always been that it doesn't have sufficient. You know, resources, thinking to think about religion, it's a very, very secular, sort of, that tourist. And I was hoping that he might bring those in. And basically around the reform conference, it's turned out that he perhaps on wisely has been entrapped by, is that the right word? Discuss some journalists posing as foreign fundraisers. Foreign money. Coming in and tried to sort of tempt him and he reformed to, and he basically said some very, very sort of wide ranging things around that they could fund.

37:56Polling reports that, that would then be not commissioned by reform, commissioned by them, but on sort of to help reform and thus get around the strict anti foreign donations law. I think it's about raising it anyway, he stood down and there's a big for a war, the final size did an enormous piece on him. It's huge. Of which most of you read it, did you read it all done? I did, the most of it's entirely benign. I kept reading it and that sounds alright. What, what, what, they're trying to get out here. What he has a little Christian community of post grads that he, you know, you know, so, yeah. To be as friends in America. Yeah, it's a really long article, isn't it? And the most, it's obviously like an attempt to dig up the most, they possibly can on James. And like the most sort of salacious thing they can find is that there was a PhD student who basically complained that he'd asked her to do too much writing for her doctorate, which is a really strange complaint because you're doing a doctorate of Cambridge, like,

39:08did you not expect to do lots of writing? So that was really odd. And then there was all this stuff, well, he's rich, he's got like a massive house and he has people to stay there. And it's like, it was almost like one of the main critiques of the article was he shows too much hospitality. It was like, he and his wife are very, very gracious hosts and it's a bit suspicious. So it was a very strange kind of article, you know, he's got lots of powerful friends. Well, so what? Low to people have powerful friends. Yeah, and so I and church times, of course, reported with glee because he's a conservative conservative figure within the church of England, but without really going into any of the details. I mean, I think firstly, he just have a think about funding. So since 2000, it has been illegal for. I did a bit of research in this morning. It's been illegal for foreign funds to be used. They've been capped, donations have been capped, and you have to be declared.

40:08And basically, you're not permitted to take funding from foreign citizens, okay, which kind of, on one sense, fair enough, I understand what they're getting at. They've been some scandals about it. On the other hand, I think it's it was deliberately designed by labor to hamstring conservative fundraising events because, you know, tend to be the right wing parties have sort of quite international links to just to sort of republican people in the USA and elsewhere. Yes, that's great. And of course, you know, the EU were free to spend their money and slap up kind of, you know, the EU spent this, which is itself a kind of political kind of thing. And also, a labor, of course, getting their money by sort of almost my feet, you know, everyone who joins the union has to opt out of giving part of their money to labor. So they get a lot of money just automatically, which, which is, you know, there are all sorts of questions about party funding around here. It's quite, but in any case, if reform were to commission a poll, but the bill gets paid by someone else, that would be illegal under looker at law.

41:24Okay, if someone who is adjacent to reform, who was who was a foreign citizen funded and paid for a report that happened to be something the reform wanted, that's not illegal. That's, you know, that, and the question is, there's a gray area between these two things. So our is is all sort of expressing some wishes that, oh, it'd be really nice if. And then then then funding in any case in the particular case, we're talking about here, there was no money and there's all hypotheticals and that, you know, that sort of entrapment is hypotheticals are not illegal. It's not illegal to moot the idea. It's illegal to receive the money in that way, potentially. And I think there is a difference between reform kind of like specifying it and maybe an outside company specifying it in a favorable way for reform. I could fund a poll if I had a few million. And I could ask questions that I were favorable to reform, but if I haven't said anything to reform, it's nothing to do with reform. Or if I've sat in the pub with James Orren said, you know, would this be helpful? Is that is that actually illegal? So there are gray areas here and that's what reform are claiming is that they never actually specified it. They didn't, they didn't take any money. They, there no money was paid.

42:37The polls in question that are around the local council elections, which labor were holding off because of reef, because they were intending to re draw the boundaries and there was actually polls were part of the pressure put upon them to allow for democratic process to take places normal, but also high cost and high cost and junction was part of it as well, which is arguably the more persuasive thing. I think James always been unwise and has spoken in a loose lip to manner about things which he shouldn't own better. And I'm a little bit disappointed in him, especially if there is this sort of gray area like I should be beyond approach. This sort of thing is is he was going to be targeted at some point. You can't just, you know, sitting around in a pub, making shady deals is doesn't doesn't look good for his greater project. So, well, I think that the optics are bad, aren't they? And I'm sure that he realizes that, you know, that this is not good for him or for reform. And you know, it actually it reminds me of the two member, I know you're not a massive football fan Tom, but do you remember Sam Allardice who was the England football manager for a very, very brief period of time.

43:51He was recorded in a very similar way by journalists. I think it was in a pub and he didn't know that they were journalists, but he was he was discussing essentially breaking transfer rules. And of course this was reported and he had to stand down as England manager. So this kind of thing, it is a sort of proven way of getting people to say things that, you know, you might journalists might want them to say, you know. So there's that sort of optics thing. And also I think the thing that sort of further compounds this is the fact that all of this took place in kind of, you know, these really high-end, expensive London restaurants. And James is that kind of, I mean, you know, I really like James, you know, I was here, I was here, I was here, he helped me a bit with my doctorate, he wasn't officially, but he did help me, you know, I met him at Oxford and talked to him on the phone a number of times about it. It was very, very helpful. And I put you in a condo at Daniel as well, didn't he? So he's a friend of the show. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he did. I've always found him to be like an outstanding person and, you know, I really like him a lot. And so he's a very genuine Christian as well. I think what he's done here is it's like strategically backfire definitely.

45:05You know, whether he's done anything, it doesn't really seem to me, I'm not an expert, we didn't seem to me that he's done anything illegal. I don't really think he's done anything immoral. I think he's trying to he's trying to do the best that he can for a form given the given the framework that there, that there is, which he was obviously aware of. And you know, he was he was recorded again, it doesn't sound very good, but he was recorded saying stuff like Nigel won't know about it. And he said, the other thing he said was, I think we can get away with it, which sort of sounds bad if you interpret it in a certain way. If you think that he's saying it's illegal, but no one's going to find out about it. I don't think he was saying about that. I think he was saying we're not technically breaking the rules. So I think we can get away with it. And in that sense, I don't really see that like he's done anything kind of like morally wrong. It's just obviously strategically unwise and it's backfired. And it probably is going to cost him at least for a time, maybe permanently, it's going to cost him his place of influence and reform, which I think is a shame, because you know, I think it's good to have a Christian influence in reform.

46:07And it's obviously going to make it makes reform look really bad on a number of levels. Of course, people are going to have different reactions on me, because I think like the hardcore kind of reform supporters will be like, well, we don't care. This is just part of the establishment trying to try to blacken the name of reform because they don't want reform to take power. But I think it's about those kind of people in the middle who aren't really sure whether they vote for reform or not. And then this kind of thing may put them off. So it doesn't look good for them in that respect. So I don't think they're coming out of this well. And then the other thing I thought was a little bit disappointing. Well, I don't know whether I take this disappointing. But like, you know, when Farage basically said that these two people were AIDS, he was like, two AIDS have said things that they shouldn't have said. But I mean, we're talking about very, very senior people in the reform party. And the other bloke, sorry, his name has just gone out of my head. But he's basically been, yeah, Dan Duke, sorry, he's Nigel Farage is senior eight. And he's been, he's been very, very close to Farage for many, many years. And it's even been described as a kind of father and son type relationship.

47:13So I think it does show a certain sort of coldness and ruthlessness to Farage to say about probably need them. You probably need them. But I don't know. Yeah, yeah. So I mean, to describe, to sort of say, well, you know, they're two, you know, just two AIDS have been talking in ways which they shouldn't have done. It's pretty, it's pretty ruthless, I would say, to do that. And I'd find that, if I was Dan Duke, so I think I'd find that all the way to James. I think I'd find that quite difficult. So, yeah. So it's a bit of a, it's a bit of a bulls up, I think you would say, on the whole. Yeah, yeah. And it's very affordable, avoidable, you know, sort of, you know, I think sort of, it's sort of slightly boastful, I guess, you know, I think this sort of thing could have been more reserved. Yeah. It comes across as fubristic, doesn't it? It comes across like a bunch of rich men who think that they're great chatting about how wonderful they are and how they're going to do all these fantastic things and they don't care about the rules and blah, blah, blah.

48:14In a very high end, expensive London restaurant or a series of expensive restaurants, it doesn't look good. But then it is the kind of thing where you think, well, you know, we do say things, don't we, when we're not being recorded and when, you know, we think we're talking somebody in private. And if it were recorded and leaked to the press and if it were widely reported, you know, we'd probably look at the screen as well. You know, I mean, there are plenty of you, I mean, if people think the things that you sound this podcast are outrageous, they always hear some of the things you say to me when we're not recording. I mean, they've shocked, wouldn't they? Yeah, when you're talking to your wife, you know, in private at home, you say, well, sorts of things, don't you? I least I do. Which I would never want, I would never want to be broadcast or reported. It's just from time to time these things happen. And I think we have to be aware of these things, don't we? Because we live in an age now where we could potentially be recorded all the time. All things we write online could be, you know, screen-shoted, even in private messages, they could be or in emails, they could be screen-shoted and sent.

49:18You know, when I was in Currency, my training come and always said to me, if anything's like controversial, not like you're going to say something wrong, but if anything's controversial, not sure about something, don't put it in an email or ring the person up and speak to them on phone or talk to them face to face. Because an email can just end up anywhere. Yep, yep. Very wise. Yeah, I think it was wise advice actually. And I do sort of think about that when I'm like, on my keyboard, like, you know, like just really giving it some and then I think, should I say this? And then I'm like, no, Father Ian says no, don't do that. Anyway, and Tom, we talked about that quite a lot. I don't know if there's massive amounts of say about everything else that's going on. So there's the Archbishop can to be spoken out again against assisted dying and says that doctors shouldn't be involved in the ending of life, which is good. This is a dying business. Now do abortion. Yeah, be good to talk about abortion as well. And so that's returning soon, the death bill that let's kill everyone.

50:2011th, isn't it? There's a bit of every chance that it doesn't pass. Every chance. It's only it was only both very narrow majority and given that people know they're going to use the Parliament act to try and ram it through unamended and it's obviously flawed. A lot of people said they're voting for it on, you know, with the intention that the Lord's are going to make it better because of legislation. Well, they can't do that if they use the Parliament act to ram it through a unit with this piece of awful legislation. Hopefully it won't go through. Yeah, well, it's not about legislation anyway. Is it ultimately about the humanity and metaphysics? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but I mean, yeah, hopefully. Yeah, yeah, but you're putting your making's correct. I'm just saying legislation isn't going to make any difference. It's not going to make any difference if somebody says, oh, you know, we're going to have these safeguards around it, whatever. Oh, yeah, but what I'm saying is they voted for it last time because they, a lot of them said, oh, you know, it's in the committee stage and in the Lord's stage, it'll be improved. I don't think that it can be improved to be any better than it, you know, than an awful piece of legislation.

51:21It's dreadful, you know, there's no good piece of legislation in this but a lot of them, you know, seems to think there is a possibility of a good piece of legislation. This clearly isn't, but they're the people who are running it trying to ram it through nonetheless. Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, that's good. That's good. Good. And then just a couple of other things. It seems though to me that Europe is lurching to the right this, this, this week, there's been a big surge in the AFD's popularity in Germany. The political establishment of the germ of Germany is said to be humiliated by the fact that the AFD, which is, I mean, they're often described as far right, but they're really just the right, I would say in Germany, have had a massive victory in their elections. What do they expect if they're keeping gnawing the concerns of people, you know, if you just keep ignoring them, keep pretending they're not there eventually. And after you know, they've had this sort of firewall idea when no one will vote with them ever, you know, and the, and now, you know, but still the problems that are being stacked up for Germany, by the sort of liberal sort of massive parties.

52:36And this is one of the problems is where I don't want to lose first pass the first in England, is the year not with this completely impossible to change without real drastic change. We've finally seen the drastic change here. AFD don't quite have a majority, but they may manage it with sort of supply and demand type idea with another small, with one of the smaller parties, they need, I think, three seats to govern. Now, of course, the response of the liberal sort of center is to try and ban AFD. But, I think that would just unleash quite, quite dangerous things onto the, you know, into the politics. Yep, yep. So, yeah. So their AFD program term limit for professional politicians, Europe of sovereign states, end of the euro, total border control, asylum processed outside the EU, remigration of criminals and people without residents rights, tax cuts, nuclear energy, cold, repair to Nord Stream, no more CO2 tax, no more ban on combustion engines, pro-Natalists, promotion of German culture and German language expulsion of Muslims who reject the German legal system, no to share a court's reinforcement of the past.

53:48Reinforcement of the police, zero tolerance of foreign criminals and Matthews, end of hate crimes and maximum freedom of expression. You say, Tom, it sort of sounds like common sense in many ways, doesn't it? Yeah, yeah. I don't feel the same. I mean, that sounds quite like a good list of policies to me. I don't really see what the problem is. We've had the Pope actually last week saying that remigration is not a Christian option, but a number of people actually pointed out that even in the Roman Catholic catacasem, it does say that people who come to live in other countries need to respect their laws and integrate with their culture. So, it even says that in the Roman Catholic catacasem, I'm just quoting from memory, but it definitely says that I've seen it. They're not even saying wholesale remigration, though. They're saying remigration of criminals, which is a very different thing. Well, then those without residents rights, that's the other thing that says that. Well, that's mostly people who have come illegally on the people.

54:49I suppose you would say that they are criminals as well, technically speaking, if they've come without residents rights. And then of course, the other thing that's happened, so I'm is that the Iceland has said that they don't want to join the EU, because they are, I think I guess they just don't want to. I mean, they've already got some relationship with the EU anyway, but they don't want to be full members. And that obviously doesn't agree for the EU because. I love that little bit of anti Trump, like, tripping it in at the beginning. And we lost that got to do with anything. I think it's because the, I think it's basically what the article is saying here in the telegraph is that. Trump is kind of threatening Greenland slash Iceland, which is a bit stupid because it's not about Iceland as it is about Greenland. And therefore it would be more, it might be more attractive for Iceland to join the EU in order to be part of a kind of protective block, but they've actually rejected that idea,

55:52because they don't think it's necessary. So it's not. But I mean, it's just interesting that I mean, I don't agree with an awful lot of what Trump does, but does it need to open an article about Iceland's EU status with a sort of slide job? Donald Trump has got his, just interestingly chose to do that, isn't it? Well, the telegraph, I think, sometimes somewhat has a, do Trump to arrangements in general quite a lot? It's got worse. It's got, it's also now run owned by a sort of middle, middle liberal Germans. So it's all very anti-ADF as well. There's not a single ADF article. A.M.A.F.D. So, A.M.A.F.D. So, a single ADF is the Alliance defending freedom, which is an organisation. It's probably anti them too. Probably. Every single AFD article has some sort of slide on, oh, the Supreme courts, you know, it's the, there wasn't the Supreme Court, it's like the some German internal intelligence agency, you know, condemned them as extremists or something, but you know, it's basically has, has that in every single one.

56:59A little paragraph about how AFD, I've been condemned by some shady little German liberal intelligence agency. It's just, it's just normal, it's normal, you think, it's normal, you speak. Yeah, lots of people are, as you can see, like with these election results in Germany, like lots of lots of people are switching off to this kind of nonsense, and they're just sick of it. And that's part of the reason, just go back to the James Orl thing. That's one of the reasons I don't think it will ultimately be that significant, because I think people don't care anymore. I think, you know, they just think, well, who cares, you know, we don't care of James Orl commission to poll and a slightly dodgy way with sick of the uniparty, and with sick of being gaslit and slight to and blah, blah, blah. So I don't, you know, I don't know where these things will actually make very much difference. I think people have had enough and they want to vote for alternatives. And you can see it all across Europe, Iceland, or, you know, in France, obviously, the rise of like the pen, marine the pen and all this kind of stuff. So, you know, that's all happening. Tom, we're going to do our email in a minute. But firstly, I would like to just do a quick shout out to ask people to subscribe to the show.

58:03Really, really helps us to run the show. It helps me to live because I live off the money on it, broadcasting and writing. So please do subscribe and become a supporter today. So you get extra content, you get our bonus podcast on collared, which we're about to record in a minute. We're doing a stump the Vicar episode. Hardest questions you can think of. Hardest possible questions in the world ever. So that's an extra thing for subscribers who also release the episodes early and we occasionally do extra bonus content as well. Sometimes I do some chats with my friend, Nick Dixon. And we do a few other bits and pieces as well. So please do subscribe to extra content on Patreon. It's only two pounds 50 a month. It really is not very much money and it keeps the show going. Literally can't do the show without your support. So please do do that. You can also subscribe on a sub stack if you like or just write, write an email to us. And we can tell you how to subscribe, subscribe directly to RevimPod at gmail.com. And all of the links are below. Have you managed to work out how to do it so that you can actually click this link here? Oh, I can make it embedding link.

59:03Not yet. One day. One day to be the thing, Jamie. One day. I will. One day. I've seen it. I've seen it in other podcasts. It would be amazing if I could do that. Click the link. Here I'm just pointing down and saying scroll down and go in the notes. Whether you're watching this on YouTube or if you're listening on your podcast, just scroll down. You'll see all the links to how you can subscribe and you can take your choice and you can do it that way. So please do consider that. It really is just so crucial for the future of the show. So please do. Thank you so much. All right, Tom. Let's do the email after we see this is a question. By the way, it is it is probably a question. By the way, I've stopped doing him of the week because I can't get the sound to work properly. And if anyone can help me with that, I just I've tried it like on the same browser, you know, stream me it through through stream your art. I just can't I can't get its work and I can't find music to download that I can use. You know, there's not copyrighted. You're neat to you. I mean, I suspect you need a rig where you can have the sound coming in.

1:00:06Not through. It's been so hard to come in to how it captures everything, Jamie. I could have a look at it into it for you, but you look into it and if anyone else knows, we could always sing the hymns, but I don't I had not good enough singing really to be recorded. Maybe you are Tom. You're better single than I am. You can hold the tune better than me. So maybe you could you could sing it next time. Anyway, let's do the email. Tom, do you want to do that? I read it. Emails. Maybe the topic for the next one, collard. The following. This is like a little like a taster of what on collard might be like. The following for my local town centre church bothers me a little. A kind of trivialisation or something. Maybe a kind of veneration of objects. Is this just me happy to be created corrected? What do the rest think? Here is the quote, children will love this special all age communion service which marks the beginning of the school year by having the backpack blessed. So is this just me or is it a kind of veneration of objects? Jamie.

1:01:12Well, I think that it's there are a couple of things here. There's first is a concept of all age communion which I'm not like I mean people would do it fine. I mean, I you may have them yourself Tom. I'm not a massive fan of this of this sort of service just to say that for my own personal taste. It often uses really lame bits of common worship. So I'm not massively a fan of that. There is quite a nice there is quite a nice. I'm going to just defend one part of which we might call a lame part of common worship. There are two authorized common communion services with children. The first of which is okay if you strip out all the in-name responses. I quite like it. So so so I've edited it slightly because it has like the you know you can do some responses to it. Is that the listen and the listen and we will hear one that sort of thing. Yeah. But if you take all that out it turns out it's quite a nice just simple language straightforward communion service. I quite like it. Okay, well I'm willing to be corrected on that. So that's you know I'm perfectly happy to be corrected on that.

1:02:16The other one's awful. Okay, fair enough. And then the thing about the blessing of the back pack packs. I've got no problem with the blessing of back packs personally. I think blessing of objects is perfectly fine. And I think it probably is a nice way of getting kids into church at the beginning of a school year. So I think it would be a good good way of engaging with families. So I don't really mind. I suspect on you're going to be slightly more skeptical about it. Well, I don't I don't really bless objects. To be honest, I bless people. I don't really see. What does bless me? I mean, what does bless me? Consecrate an object for use of God. I guess so when we went to Jesus bless us gives thanks to God. When the Eucharist he's giving you know, he's offering an object to God. I don't know we're doing that in the back pack. So we when we bless people. Yeah, I mean, I think I think that's where it may be slightly falls apart. Like I was just thinking of like an object I've blessed recently like I bless somebody's car somebody asked me to bless their car.

1:03:19And I wouldn't say that like my sort of understanding there was like I was setting the car apart for the use of God. I think I was more setting it apart like as a car which is going to be used by Christian family. And therefore, you know, for God's protection and blessing to be upon the object itself in that sense. So I suppose it's not a million miles away from the concept of setting something apart from God. But I suppose in this case like I've got no sort of I suppose I'd put it slightly less strongly. I'd say I'm not against doing this. And although it might be slightly unclear what it actually means theologically. I think the fact that you would get people into church and families into church and it's not. It's not I mean the local communities outweighs the kind of slight incoherence. Yeah, and I sort of tend to agree though. Whether I'd run one I mean I could run one I could see I could see I feel I don't know. I mean I have to lay the water around. I do blessings of I have done blessings and houses. But they're not really blessings of houses you just pray in all the different rooms. You just and again you set each room aside for a purpose under God's.

1:04:24I guess that is a blessing. That's a blessing isn't it? Yeah. So I guess other people can find that really helpful to someone who had a really tricky time when they moved into the house there. Someone came and robbed them while I'm moving in and I and I went around and just sort of prayed on these areas and they think that was really helpful. Another people who've had sort of spiritual experiences in the house and I bless houses for that as well. Bad bad spiritual experience. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like you're poltergeist or whatever. Yeah. So I guess I guess you know that's sort of there's an all there's an ancient Christian tradition for that. I think it's not venerating the backpack so they're not they're not sort of the holding up as as a symbol of God or any like that. It's just it's just a nice it's just a nice thing for children to feel that the church has kind of come and said something nice to them. I guess that might be a good enough reason to do it. Yeah. Yeah. Making connections with schools and you know that encourage me to that.

1:05:30I can't say it's massively harmful personally. What do you think about pet services? Don't run them personally. But some of my churches run them as lay-led ones. I just say go ahead. You don't have you don't have a pet to you. No. Okay. If you had a pet would you take one to pet service? You wouldn't. Okay. I think my pet my dog needs exercising to be honest with you. So I probably would let me do it. I suppose I could do it anytime I suppose. But yeah, she just live a bit of holy water into the bowl and you know. There's definitely she definitely needs some kind of deliverance ministry. Yeah. That's a sure behavior is not good. But we're trying to train her. We're trying to train her to anyway, we should probably finish there. And say goodbye to everyone now. Once again, do email the show comments questions, a Reverend poll at gmo.com and like and subscribe. And we're going to be with you next time for sure. I should say it prayer. Some of that's right. I'll do the prayer today.

1:06:33It's correct. And I'm going to do the collect for this week, which is a lovely collect from the 14th Sunday after Trinity, the Book of Mormon prayer. Let us pray. We might even have a lasting God. Give unto us the increase of faith, hope and charity. And that we may obtain that we should always promise. Make us to love that we should always command through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen. Hi Augustine. Very Augustine. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Sure. Sure. Sure. Sure. Right. Tom. Until next time. Thank you and keep watch. I keep faith.