Raygun And The Confidence Question

0:00Hello and welcome to Mama Mia Out Loud. It's what women are actually talking about on Monday 7th September. I'm Holly Wainwright. I'm Jessi Stevens. I'm Amelia Luster. And I absolutely screwed up Father's Day. Screwed it up. This was Luke his first Father's Day as a father of three. He deserved the world. He was good. That's my question. Okay, that's a question because I started with the best of intentions. I was like, Budgie Smuggler does this thing where you can get your child to color in things and then they can put the colored in print on custom budges. That's amazing. I was like, I want to be the type of mum who does that. Anyway, I just kept putting it in front of Lunar and she said, I don't want to color in that stupid like pizza. Because is it like also a particular shape? It's like a pineapple. I was like, this is fun and Lunar was like, no, and then by the time she did it, they were like, and the twins aren't old enough to be any used to that. No longer available. And I was like, all right, never mind. So I order him a shirt that says, um, hi, hungry. I'm dad. And I also ordered him this lamp thing. Right. And anyway,

1:05so he wakes up on Father's Day and I'm like, here are your gifts. And they're still in their package, like whatever they arrived in in the mail. I didn't open them. And I give him the first and he opens it. And it's like three pairs of socks. And I was like, that's weird. And Luke is like, I ordered these myself. Why haven't you been holding these hot sweets? I've been waiting for them all week. So they were delivered. Why? And I was like, it appears the shirt came. So we'll put that to the side. Now here's the, is it piece de resistance? Peers de resistance. The 39 dollar lamp. So he opens it. And it is disgusting. It is like a plastic piece of crap that's meant to. You turn the lights off in your bathroom. You put it on and like projects. You're saying they like projects like. I know how much Luke are like stuff like random. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm ready with the other work probably. And it came with a remote like it was a whole thing. What made you think he would even like that? So Luke is taken given the chaos and stimulation about daily lives to having a shower in the dark. I should get him a special lamp.

2:09Top one now he's dark. So anyway, you thought I'm going to take his dark shower and make it light. Great, great. Thank you, Jesse. With this lamp filled piece of shit. And he put it on in the shower. Like he tried. He really tried. And it was just so it was just disgusting. Like it was just just a lamp that requires a remote control. It's probably not up Luke as early. And then I went you know what this can be a kid thing. So then during Luna's bath time, I was like, we're going to have a surprise. I didn't have the light off. Turn the lamp on. She was like, turn the light on. Absolutely. I saw Luke a downstairs when I came in this morning and we were both getting coffee at the same time and it was the first thing you told me. He said Jesse really fucked up the first day. He got his socks. He's got a whole lot of return. I used to do it for so. Extra admin for Luke. Here's what else has made our agenda for today. As the glorious Steinem tributes are shared and shared and shared, one of her most famous quotes is stirring up a whole lot of debate among women.

3:14Plus has it smart tech gone too far? There's a new fancy toothbrush that retails for $799. And I am actually somewhat intrigued. You should have got Luke a that for far this day. He actually renews the fact that he's like, does this have AI? Oh my god, it's going to go now. He would have died at the price tag. And look, there's a new documentary about Ray gun out and it's got us asking a lot of questions about self-confidence. Can you have too much of it? But first, Amelia Lester. In case you missed it, a Massachusetts jury has failed to reach a unanimous verdict in the murder trial of Lindsay Clancy. And as a result, the judge has declared a mistrial. So what does this mean? It means that 11 of the 12 members of the jury seemed ready to a quick clancy on charges of killing her three children. They were ready to say she needs more help than punishment. And to agree with the the defences contention that postpartum psychosis made her do something she would not have

4:17otherwise done. But there was this one juror who held out on it. And as a result, the judge has said that it's a mistrial. They have to figure out whether or not there'll be another trial. And what happens next is basically that the murder charges remain intact. Clancy remains in a psychiatric facility. And then on September 29, there's going to be another hearing and the state will say, yes, we want to again try and pursue a court case from first degree murder charges or know we want to do something different. So they could just have to do all of this again? Yes. So in the US, which I've learned from my true crime documentary consumption, if you are a juror, you are allowed to speak to the press and like to speak openly about what happened once it's all wrapped up. So it could be that in a few weeks or whatever, the jurors are happy to go on the record. You are not allowed to do that in Australia. But the US, we could get some real insight into what happened in that jury room. Something else that happened this week that I'm just desperate to talk about. Over the last week or so, you might have seen headlines about

5:21Jai Arrow. Have you two seen this? Okay. So there have been videos of a young man walking onto a football field in tears with the song, you'll never walk alone playing in the background. You might have seen photos of him being embraced by a rabbit, whose coach Wayne Bennett or cuddling his one year old daughter, Ila. So this is rugby league. This is rugby league. So some people will be very across this story. If you're a rugby league fan, you've been following this for months. The two of the two of the big rugby league teams in Sydney, exactly the rabbit, and the rest of the season. And they have a lot of rivalry. Exactly. And something happened this Friday night that's kind of thrown all of this into the spotlight. But Arrow is 31. And until very recently, he played for the South Sydney rabbit, in the NRL. At the end of last year, he was voted South Sydney's best player. This season, when they did the team photo, he is front and center. He is seen as, you know, starring player, going to have a brilliant 2026 season. And then in May of this year, he announced that he had been diagnosed at 31 years old with a motor neurone disease. And therefore, he's a immediate

6:25retirement from rugby league. Players in the aftermath, people might have seen this, started doing the bow and arrow as a bit of a tribute or gesture to gyro. And this went across codes that they were doing it in the NFL, the union, and even all over the world. So they sort of pretend to do a pull back and shoot an arrow. And it was interesting. It's interesting because I saw that in various sporting things before knowing the story. Exactly. And it was a way of celebrating like a pay attribute to him. Yeah. Exactly. So then in August, the last month, something unprecedented happened. Arrow had played 98 games. Two more and it would have been 100. And 100 is this massive career milestone for rugby league players. It's something that, you know, not many players reach. It's amazing. The NRL granted the Rabito's special permission for him to be in the starting team for the final two games of the season. Now gyro at this point, his speech is severely impacted. So for him to come on

7:29for these two games is symbolic and also a massive thing for the NRL to really embrace. They even, the Rabito's even named him as Captain. And he led the Rabito's out for round 26. The way it worked is he went out onto the field for kickoff. That constitutes a game for Arrow, so 99, eventually 100. And then play was paused for a quick interchange. He came off and they sent on another player. The reason the footage from Friday night in particular, that was game 100. Gyro walks out. He's got former teammates NRL great beside him, embracing him. He is crying. You can see that he's he's walking is impacted. They'd been flown in from all over the country to celebrate. Anthony Albanese is in the stands. He's of course a Rabito's fan. Rabito's fan. They're all just like these big, burly men. A lot of them are just in absolute tears. Stand by me was playing 40,000 people are there. And it was this incredible show of community in

8:35honor of everyone knows that gyro is like this and just a lovely guy. He's a, you know, a young dad stand out person at the top of his career. It was such a show of vulnerability. And for the NRL to move on that and go, we're going to make this exception and just acknowledge what an absolute tragedy this is has been such an important moment for the code. Holly, did you see that footage from Friday night? I did. It's actually impossible to watch that without crying. It is. And it is beautiful to see the solidarity. And there's a beautiful moment when Arrow walks off at the end in the coat, you know, legendary coach Wayne Bennett kind of holds his hand. And they just hold hands for a second. That's really beautiful. And look, it's also good to have a really positive representation of male sport at the moment in that way because, you know, the other conversation about sport at the weekend was happening in my house, which was about the Sydney Swans and how we, you know, Brent was watching their game. And I was like, I just can't. Yeah. So there are a lot of times I wish that we saw footballers display acts of vulnerability and

9:41solidarity in all directions, let's say, but this not to take anything away from this moment, which was really beautiful, very sad, very powerful. It showed the really good side of what a team spirit is and what, you know, those two teams hate each other, like really hate each other. It's a very visceral rivalry that and to see them embracing and everything was wonderful. It reminds you of the good things about that sort of almost tribal nature of sporting culture. I wish we saw more. It's like a positive expression of mateship. And we just, I mean, mode of neurone is one of the most cruel, callous diseases that someone can be diagnosed with. And we just send all our love to gyro and he's, he's young family and hope that he can can enjoy that and enjoy watching from the sidelines. Did you brush your teeth this morning and think, what this toothbrush needs is some more technology? Well, if so, Dyson was listening and would like to

10:41sell you the Dyson camera jet and AI powered electric toothbrush and water floss are with on-board cameras priced at just $799. What are the cameras for? Well, I'm going to get to that. But I will say, I do like the idea of the water floss. Often when kids get braces, they get encouraged to buy a water floss, but it's a 500 or 800 water flosses are the best and I will die on that hill. I need one anyway. Why don't I have a water floss? Once you get a water floss that you actually cannot comprehend not using it. And when you travel, you think I'm going to take this extremely cumbersome device with me. Okay, I need a water flosser. This isn't an ad for either that toothbrush or water flosses. What are we talking about? I was going to say you can put down your phone with your ordering of the Dyson toothbrush. It's not available yet, but it is available for pre-order. So don't get too excited. This is no shade to Dyson. We all love a Dyson product. Give me a vacuum, give me a hair tool. But has smart tech gone too far? I need to talk about this toothbrush. I'm going to play you the ad to give you a little sense of all of the features of the very exciting

11:43toothbrush. This is not the toothbrush. It's a camera viewing, live streaming, tooth scanning, gap finding, liquid flossing, jet washing, plaque blasting, technique teaching, bacteria battering, time saving, mouthwash dispensing, multitasking. Supersonic oscillating, spinach eviscerating, popcorn dissipating, even more time saving, precision cleaning, 360 oral care improving device that lives in a bathroom. Okay, we get the idea, Dyson. That's just the lazy $800. Anyone think that sounds exciting, send a voice to the old. I'm so sold. I'm so sold. So what happens is it uses AI, don't ask for details, but it uses AI to get into all the nooks and crannies. And then when it finds a little gap in your teeth, it squirts automatic mouth rinse into it to get all the bits out of your teeth. I want it. Amelia, would you like to use this platform to politely ask Dyson for your face toothbrush? Yes, Dyson. I am actually

12:47passionate about oral hygiene. And I love my water flossing. As mentioned, I've been thinking I need to get into those little interdental toothbrushes. Have you seen those, like the tiny little ones that you meant to be using now? I was told by my dentist that it's a good idea to get a little toddler toothbrush from my back teeth. Because like, and you get a lack of time to the cost $800. That's a much cheaper fix. I thought we were talking about the world going mad, but actually you do a fully on board. You've been red-pilled. You're like, my mouth needs an $800 toothbrush. Are you hating on my new $800 toothbrush, honey? I cannot make another purchase that requires me to download an app to use it. A toothbrush that requires an app to use it. One of our producers made the comment in the meeting today, I'm not going to out her, which one it was, that a toothbrush with this many speeds is like the vibrators that have this many speeds. When everybody knows you only need one speed. There are too many apps. Oh, five brainers are too precious. I wouldn't suggest. To five brainers have apps? I got a teeth whitening kit from the pharmacy. Yeah. That had an app.

13:51No, it didn't. Yeah, dude. Everything has an app. Okay, so smart technology. It's all very exciting. We all know, Father's Day, they love this smart technology. I am going to put forward a sinister side to all of this. Yes, right? The American Spiritsist would have some theories about the toothbrush. Nick and your DNA? Well, yes. I was speaking to a tech expert recently who works in the domestic violence space. And she was like, you have no idea how dangerous this stuff is. Now, this isn't at all about the toothbrush. I didn't know about the toothbrush when I was having a conversation with this tech expert who was talking about other smart home devices. Because as you say, everything needs an app, everything's connected to the internet. And they were saying that it's posed kind of a security risk. She said, there have been known cases of like stalking harassment because someone sees that you've just turned your robot app back in my life. Right? And if you've got the app, if you're someone who, you know, the smart doorbells. Yeah. And if you're someone who is being stalked by an ex or they want to know if you're home,

14:56they want to know if you've left the home, they can tell because of all this smart technology, whether you've just put the dishwasher on, whether you've just put the washing machine on, because it's all connected. And anything that is that has internet is hackable. Is the other thing? Yeah. And hackable, even by people you don't know, I mean, I've heard it said that every time you download an app, you're essentially opening a window of your digital house. Oh, it's very, very true. So I'm wondering whether toothbrush, I mean, I don't want the 24 images a second or whatever it is of my nooks and crannies and my teeth, released to anyone that is very deeply private. But there could be something more sinister in terms of, do I want anyone knowing, oh, Jesse's home, she's just got up to brush her teeth. Like that's something that do you want that public technology before about Billy's pet robot? Years ago, literally three years ago, I think he was little, he was, he campaigned really hard for his birthday to get this very cute little robot that sits on the shelf in his room. And it just like cherps away and makes noises and, okay, it's watching you.

16:00And it's subliminally giving you messages at night. We why we did, I don't know. So we bought it, it cost more money than I thought because I've got mixed up with you in the USD and they you got shipped from China, lives in my house, sits in Billy's room, just talks incessantly all the time. And I realized now that it's a spy. When my friends come to say, and they might sleep in Billy's room because we just turn for the kids out, if we have house guests and say you have to sleep on the couch, whatever, my friend takes the little, cute little robot that's kind of going, yeah, I'm eating noodles, yeah, I'm brushing my teeth, you know, it's like an, and just puts it, turns its face away and puts it far away. But I think that we have been sharing our, all of our secrets with this little robot for a long time. My only question is why would anybody want them? Well, because you can't get dumb devices anymore, like I wanted to get a dumb TV because I didn't want a smart TV, I didn't want YouTube anywhere near my television, but you cannot get a dumb TV

17:02anymore. No, it's true. Everything is like the apps and the connection and the internet and the blur and then why fives down? It's like, I can't brush my teeth. I like my toothbrushes, no, I do want to make an exception. I will say this is the last just bit to make you feel really nihilistic about your Monday. I was speaking to this tech expert who said that they have an Alexa in their home and they're like, we will not have a conversation within a shot of Alexa. Really? Yes, they said when we need to have a conversation, we go downstairs away from the Alexa. That all these devices know about me. I know. In a moment, the glorious Steinem quote that has caused a little bit of friction in 2026. They say that when a giant falls, they make a lot of noise as they go. And so it has been this week with the outpouring of grief and respect and tribute over glorious Steinem's death. Like the week before it was Dolly Parton, it just seems it seems. I don't know. It seems that all those posts that are about the wrong

18:05people are going. I mean, it did feel that way. Glor is Steinem, of course, 92 years old, died at her home in New York last Wednesday. Has her episode of famous last words? We've out loud as we'll know that we've talked about famous last words a few times. We're particularly obsessed with it. And it's an American Netflix show where... Gwyneth, Haltrose, Hutsby, and the nice jumper and the kind eyes. Interviews high profile elderly people. And the idea is that nobody knows who they've interviewed and after that person passes away, the interview drops. And I have to say that when... What it could be Dolly? Yeah. And when that show was first released, I remember us talking about it on the show. And it was an idea that came from Europe. And they were saying that there when somebody high profile eyes, everyone goes, oh, I hope they've done one. And that's what I thought when Dolly Parton died, I thought, oh, I hope she's done one, but she hadn't, but glorious Steinem had. And so we all need to watch it. In a home we all need to watch it. But anyway, cheat sheet for

19:10a little bit of glorious Steinem. Actually, you know, I was out with Brent at our annual, at our weekly, not annual pub trivia when that happened. And there were people at that table who had never heard of glorious Steinem. Yeah. So would they... Can I make a judgment there? Were they younger people? They were a bit of a mixture. And there were quite a few males who maybe did not have Gloria in quite the esteem that such an important historical figure should have. So quick cheat sheet. Hopefully you have listened to the episode that we dropped with her interview with Mia that she did 10 years ago. You've interviewed Gloria Steinem too. I actually need to have a book club with one of her. She had a book of like her most iconic quotes and I interviewed her about six years ago. I never got to meet Gloria Steinem. I met her at a dinner. Oh, what was she like? She was so lovely. So she was still doing it. Yeah. Still doing it right till the end. No question. Anyway, quick cheat sheet. She was, of course, an iconic feminist and second wave.

20:14In that since 1960, she's been a big public figure. She founded the first mainstream feminist magazine, Ms. In 1971. She co-founded National Woman's Caucus in the US to recruit more women to run for office. She was an early advocate for abortion rights. And she's one of the most famous voices pushing for all kinds of equality for women. At a time when women's everyday lives were very much not in line with men's in terms of things like could they get credit cards and open bank accounts and take out leases on apartments. She has been one of those voices ever since them and still now advocating for tackling LGBTQ rights, gender-based violence. And she became an icon, got all kinds of medals and was something of a mentor to a whole to generations of feminists. Everyone from Lena Dunham to Meghan Markle was paying tribute to the impact she'd had on their life last week. And I think one thing that's really important to mention about her, even though it's a bit hard to explain, is that she made feminism approachable and accessible. She was worked up about all sorts

21:22of injustices that women faced. But she was very aware of tropes around women being angry or men hating these kinds of ideas that were so prominent in the 60s when she when she first was to prominence. And she had to kind of steer her way through to show that feminism doesn't mean hating men. It doesn't mean being aggressive and angry all the time. You can be worked up about stuff, but you can be inclusive in the way that you talk about it. Absolutely. So a lot of quotes was being shared around over social media in the past five days. I shared one myself actually. A few of her most famous ones, empathy is the most radical of human emotions. Some of us are becoming the men we wanted to marry. And this one don't tell me about it because of the leaderboards, but this is the one that apparently she had engraved on a bracelet for Meghan. Women are linked, not ranked. Love that. Men are liked better when they win. Women are liked better when they lose. Our next one of our next segments might discount that. But I think

22:26that in general, that is very true. And the one that we want to talk about today because it has caused a bit of who heart. One of her most famous quotes and topics was each generation of women lives the unlived lives of their mothers. Here she is on Glenn and Doyle's. We can do hard things podcast explaining that a little bit. I think many of us had mothers who could not be fully their own talented autonomous independent selves. And that's a source of sorrow for us. And also in some ways, we're living out the unlived lives of our mothers. Jesse, you saw some big pushback to that quote over the weekend, right? Or at least in the way it might be playing out for millennials. Do you think that's an idea that has had its moment? I did see pushback, which I was surprised about. I saw a carousel on parents' work collective. And it referred, it was talking about this quote specifically. And it referred to it in their words, not mine, as deeply problematic. And it

23:27said that Gloria Steinem had had a deeply problematic relationship with mothers. It argued that she framed stay-at-home mothers as women without personhood or who couldn't be self-actualized. She never said that. That's not a glory quote. That is interpreting it. That is interpreting it. And basically saying that by saying unlived lives, there was sort of an assumption that it was an unlived life if you dedicated it to caring for children. That is not how I interpreted what Gloria Steinem said. I think it's really important when there's a quote or a statement to look at it within the context of the moment in which it was said. And Steinem was talking about that at a moment when women didn't have any choices. My man left school at 14 to look after her siblings. She then had children until she couldn't have babies anymore. She would have loved

24:31to continue her education. She loved reading. She loved writing. She would write these poems and stuff. But it was only up until 14 that she was able to be educated. That's what she was talking about. And it was that Nann had no other choice. And so this new generation came along. And when my mother enjoyed poetry, I wonder what it would mean to go and study that at university or whatever it was. And then it was just opened up. And maybe they made the choice to stay at home with their kids. But it was a choice. It's like kind of banging on at the suffragettes for like they just kept talking about voting. I mean, duh. Of course women vote. Yeah. Yeah. No. That's not exactly. That was a hard for battle. And then and glorious, Steinem's beginning of her career. It was not the norm that women would be having careers and choosing what they wanted to do and working outside the home if they wanted to. No. And I appreciate what this collective is saying is that the choice to stay at home has been somewhat denigrated by the feminist movement as a whole. I

25:33actually think that's true. I think the feminist movement hasn't quite known where to put that. And there's kind of yeah, a suggestion in terms of success or ambition or whatever that it might not be there. I think that a life can be very lived if you choose to stay at home with kids. But I just think that glorious Steinem who lived until 92 had a whole lifetime in context and her own relationship with her mother that informed that quote that taken out of context, I just think that's not maybe a very generous interpretation. Yeah. I mean, women weren't able to open their own bank accounts until pretty recently. I remember Hillary Clinton talking about that when she was running for president that when she got married, she didn't she was not entitled to her own bank account. So we're talking living memory. And also in living memory, women were expected to quit the workforce when they got married because it was understood that then they would be having children. So I think we've got to cut Gloria a little bit of slack here that she saw enormous social change in her lifetime.

26:35But more than that, I don't want this conversation to become and now she's old-fashioned and now we don't need to listen to her because what we are now seeing is a conservative backlash to Gloria and others like her, which says that actually women do belong in the home. And this is happening at the highest levels of government in the US just over the weekend, the Trump administration announced a new plan that they want to give money that had previously been earmarked for low income parents to go out into the workforce or to continue their studies. And they're going to take that money and give it to married couples for whom one of the parents stays at home to look after kids. Now what that means is effectively subsidizing the decision of married couples and is on the married couples, sorry Holly, but you're not eligible for one member of that couple to stay at home. They are subsidizing the decision to have a stay at home parent, which is fine as far as it goes, but we need to look at the fact that the context here is that they want women to stay at home. They do not want women making the room money in the workforce. Gloria's ideas are still as relevant as

27:39they ever were. I also think there is an undertone in that post and some of the critique, I mean, you've both made the absolute valid points that you know, this isn't about being a caregiver or not being a caregiver, but there's an undertone in that that's because Gloria Steinem herself chose not to become a mother. She never fully understood motherhood and I hate that tone. I really do. We are so happy and have been for eternity for men to make laws and make massive decisions that impact every aspect of women's lives without walking in our shoes in that particular way or in any other way, but sometimes when it comes to discussions about women that have female advocates, their personal choices and their personal circumstances are seen as like disqualifying them. And I really don't like that idea. I think that Steinem in her decades of working with women of all kinds and her views evolved over time to become more intersectional and all kinds

28:45in all kinds of directions, but to suggest that she didn't understand motherhood would be such would be such a misunderstanding. I'm glad that you raised that because because Gloria always wanted to stress this idea that that everyone can be a mother, everyone can mother. She said, we are all able to mother whatever our sex or our age or our abilities. It's impossible for me to hear that quote from her and not think about Dolly Parton and the fact that last week we were hearing how she saw herself as very much mothering the nation or mothering the world. And it's just so interesting that we have these two examples of women who did not fit the traditional mold for what we want from women in the public eye. And look at everything they achieved. And look at everything they achieved. I think and to your point, Amelia, it's interesting because now obviously the battle fields, if you want to call them battlefields, although when I say that, I certainly don't mean between women, I mean, I guess between women's everyday lives and the rules and laws and

29:47more and conventions that influence them. The battlefields of that change in shift and we do seem to be going in a bit of a reversal. Now there's a lot of very, very real and valid pushback of like, well, I couldn't possibly choose to be a full-time caregiver because I can't afford to in the culture that we're in and the thing is that's not glorious. I'm small. She wasn't talking about late-stage capitalism. She wasn't talking about the cost of childcare. She wasn't talking about a lot of the issues that are very real to women now making those decisions. She was talking about having the same opportunities as men. There's another theory that's the broadens this out a bit that's mother-fathered daughter-son, that children bear the wounds of their parents on live lives. So if you're, and we've all heard this story of so-and-so was going to be a professional athlete and then they had kids or she was going to be a this and then the children, do you think there's

30:48there's an element of truth to that? David Beckham says that about his dad. By the way, that he was his dad wrote him very, very hard because he himself had wanted to be a footballer and he wasn't. And as you say, that is a story as old as time. I think it's really interesting because when I was reading this quote in the days after glorious time of death last week, I was thinking, if that's true for me, if it would be true for you, Jesse at your age or for M. Vernon. And I was thinking about how my mother, who was a second generation feminist, no question. And she tells me often about her awakening. Like she went to my dad got a job in New York for a year when my mom was a new mom. And she was meeting these women, not literally glorious time, but you know, like the women who had the babysitting clubs and would talk about the patriarchy. And this is the first time my mom who came from a very traditional working class family where her mom did always work, because as I always say, when class women have always worked, she had this awakening and she was like,

31:54very much in the style and mold of feminism. And did she not get to live the life she wanted to live because of the patriarchy? I think that would be a hard accusation to put at her feet. Yeah, I probably didn't have quite the same amount of fluidity that I have in the choices I get to make. Yes, I think that's definitely shifted. Like I feel as I'm not living an unlived life, my mother, I think that she, that that generation passed about on, that there were sacrifices made and that the glorious dinams of the world meant there was a lot more possibility for our mother's generation. I think it's as one vein of the criticism that does have a little bit of a ring of truth here. It's that these second generation feminist leaders, such as glorious dynam, were not always the most tuned to the intersectionality of feminism, the way that class and race intersect with women's rights. And I can see how some younger Australians in particular look at that

32:58contention that they are supposed to be living their, their mothers unlived lives. And they say, that's impossible for us because we cannot afford a home. My mother, not my mother in particular, one's mother had a free university education, which I do not have anymore. AI is taking all the job opportunities for young people. I could see how there'd be a bit of anger there. Like, Gloria, I can't live my mother's unlived life because it's so much harder for me. And we are seeing that young Australians are the first generation to be potentially going backwards economically. And that's a big deal. And that's very different to what Gloria is saying. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. We'll put a link in the show notes to me as interview with Gloria. And I try and script her Amelia's private conversation with Gloria. Yeah, yeah. It was funny. Yes. After the break, we're revisiting Ray Gunn. There's a new Netflix documentary. And it had me wondering if it's possible to believe in yourself too much.

34:00Can you believe in yourself too much? A new documentary revisits Ray Gunn's Olympics moment. What's interesting is that normally these sorts of movies complicate your idea of someone. And you think, oh, that's not what I thought they'd be like. But this in this case, what was striking was that Ray Gunn is exactly what I imagine she'd be like. What you see is what you get. The person who stood up there on the world stage at the Paris Olympics in the now infamous Kangaroo pose in her breakdowns in competition. The person who did that is exactly who you'd expect. What do I mean by that, Jessie? She just, she didn't choke. Like I think that's clear. Like, you know, it was in a mistake what happened. She, however you think she got to the Olympics, it was worse. Like that's what I thought watching it. Is that Ray Gunn is absolutely what we saw as what we got. But I think that there were things of like, remember there was like, did she cheat to get there? Bob, Bob, it's like, oh, she didn't cheat.

35:00But like the, I just kept watching it going. I've had this nightmare. Yeah. Oh, like this is a nightmare that we have all had. So the dock is on Netflix, right? And it's one off and it interviews her Rachel Gunn, which is her real name. And it interviews her husband who turns out he's very, very Sami sex. Sami sex. He's called Samuel free is his name. Thank you, Amelia. Thank you for not leaving us with Sami sex. He's breaking name. And it also interviews some of her competitors because she had been Rachel Gunn had been in the breakdancing scene in Sydney for a long time. It's not like she just woke up one day and said, I'm going to be in the Olympics. She was an academic doing a PhD on the, she wrote a PhD. Right. Right. She wrote a PhD. I wrote down what it was about. Deterritorializing gender in Sydney's breakdancing scene. Yeah. So she is embedded in that scene. Everybody in it knew her. They all know each other and several members of that interviewed during this dock. And it basically follows her journey, right? From

36:04deciding to breakdancing being in the Olympics, deciding to try and be in qualifying, going through it. When you say I've had that nightmare, Jesse, I think I know exactly what you mean. Because in the notes that I was watching this and I wrote notes throughout my main moments in this dock in two words is oh, sweetie. And then I also wrote everyone in this seems like they're in an old crystalline comedy. Because everybody seemed like a character. Well, the other thing about it is that everyone is so lovely and supportive. Yes. I mean, this is really a story about someone who comes from an incredibly supportive family. Her parents are interviewed at length and they both seem like amazing. The parents everyone wants who support her every endeavor. They show up at her breakdancing competitions when they don't understand what breakdancing is. They show up in Paris after they've had their own whole scares. They just show up for their daughter. And then she's married to Samuel Free, a K.A. Sami Sex, who seems like an incredibly supportive husband in every way. He introduced her to breakdancing and is her coach. Yes. And so he wasn't the Olympic

37:09coach, though, important distinction. He was, he's her coach. The Olympic coach is a different guy who's also in this. And at some point, he basically just throws his hands up because was it nothing to do with me? Like, money, it did. And this is the thing in terms of whether you should watch it. I think that this documentary is the story of how it happened, how this super niche community in Australia, the breaking community, it's not something that's, you know, in the mainstream, even a lot of people who do breaking wouldn't necessarily want to go to the Olympics for it. It's kind of meant to be a counter-cultural thing, not like a, I wear my Australian uniform thing. And Reagan was the best on the day at the qualifiers. It wasn't this enormous thing. It was one day. She did a few rounds and she won fair and square. We've definitely got that. International judges panel chose Reagan to be our female representative. The thing about the nightmare, though, because this is what the aftermath, which we'll get to in a minute, the things that, you know, Reagan was kind of held up as everything that's wrong with the world, everything

38:12that's wrong with white privilege, everything's wrong with, you know, Australia, everything, that's wrong with everything. My criticism of the documentary would be, it didn't acknowledge that enough. It didn't actually go into the fair kind of criticisms of culturally, like the history of break dancing and also how indigenous culture felt mocked. And all like, I just think that there were probably some criticisms that needed a minute in a docco. I think the fact that she's still throwing that kangaroo pose all the time is a little bit problematic now. And for a dance form that began in the out of boroughs of New York by black people and people of color, it was interesting that race barely featured in the documentary. Whereas I think race was a big feature of a lot of the criticism at the time. And that wasn't really engaged. We're then kind of a meaningful in the lead up to it. The thing that made me feel sick is that feeling is very familiar to me when I'm doing something like something scary, like releasing a book, right? Like this would be my

39:16version of that. It's the worst thing I've ever written. It's absolutely terrible. Who do I think I am? Look at all these other authors on the bookshelves. I don't belong that. This is what Ray Gunn's Internal Monologue was. And she makes it very clear that she was freaking out. She went to a therapist. She said, I'm freaking out. Her therapist says, what's the worst that could happen? And Ray Gunn says, Rachel Gunn says, the world could laugh at me. And the therapist says, but how likely is that really? Now all of that is very familiar, right? To most, to many of us, we're always doubting ourselves. Everybody says, oh, it's just imposter syndrome. Oh, it's just female confidence. It's like, you delivered her to be here and all those things. And then the worst thing happens times a million. And within 48 hours, Adele is on a stage in a stadium taking the piss out of you. The shaming apart, she's told she's brought shame on her nation from all corners. She's being marked. She's been. So before we get to that, though, I want to ask the question, should Sami free,

40:18should her parents have said you're not as good at this as you should be? Should someone who loved her stopped her? There was some advice by Sami sex that I was still calling him by his break down thing name. And I think we can laugh at this because they laugh at it at points. And I think that that he seems like a brilliant husband. Like he's so lovely and he's just obsessed with her and she's obsessed with him and they have their own little thing going over step. I wonder if she needed someone who was going to be more honest and it was clear that when she did like the sprinkler and the kangaroo that he was like, that is iconic. He said I was struck by the beauty of her performance. But then is he complicit? That's the question like and as parents and as partners of people. Yes. Should we be bringing them a dose of reality if it's needed? I don't think her parents are complicit because they had no idea. Right? Like they've got no idea. The kid is doing

41:21something that you have absolutely no context for. What becomes clear in this is that basically Reagan was playing a different game. Right? Is that she the reason she's at the gym all the time is because the kind of breaking that she's been doing that has won her several events and stuff around Australia and it's like it's not about spinning on your head. She can't do tricks. She can't do power moves. Yeah. The power moves. And they describe this in the show. They say she can't do power moves. That's not really her thing. It's never been her thing. But she's going to have to learn some power moves because that's what the people at the Olympics are going to do. And then she couldn't learn them because they were really hard and they're not what she does. And so Sammy sex and Reagan get together and go, well, since she can't do power moves, let's do and look the kangaroo move. There are lots of people who said that is problematic because it basically steals from indigenous traditional dance. Now I'm not an expert in that but I knew that to be true. So it's like how did they not know that to be true? How did you not know that doing the sprinkler on a world stage and wearing that outfit when every other breakdown. So

42:23is representing that nation is wearing something very different. Which of these red flags didn't stop you? However, I think in a way I ended this documentary feeling really sorry for her. Didn't you? Did you? No, I think to Amelia's point, I think that her husband should have said more. And the night before this was the argument that, well, the discussion my husband and I were having was your feign and injury. Would Luca have said that to you? Absolutely. Oh, he would have done so. He would have said it to me. He would say before that. To be fair, would be more Sammy sex about this. I don't think Shani would tell me not to do it. Your marriage was him. He said your marriage was out there. You are not. No, Luca would have definitely said you're bringing shame on the nation. And the thing is the thing I highly related to about Ray Gunn is that I've always said intellectually I'm an athlete, right? I can see the move I need to make. I know strategically

43:24what to do. I'm limited by agility, strength, speed. What do you mean? Intellectual, you're an athlete. You have to unpack this. Okay. So if I'm like on a tennis court with a tennis racket, I know I need to get to the ball. I don't know what to do. I'm just limited physically. You can get to the ball. Do it. Do it. All the rest of it. So I feel like inner-tiff from body. Yeah. Okay. I'm a world-class athlete. And Ray Gunn is clearly like, I intellectually understand breaking. I just physically can't stand on my head. And I'm like, I get that. And I think that maybe we all think we're just, are we gonna flook it? Are we gonna wake up in the morning? You know the exam that you haven't studied for and you think maybe something will come to me in the moment and suddenly I get full marks. And I'm like, is it brave of her that she didn't pretend to have an injury the night before, which I would have done and gone, all right, I'm out. And that she just went, I'm gonna do my best. There's something bizarre. Well, she told me to talk about that. All the societal addages and cliches at face value. Just do your best. It's all anyone can ask from you. Believe in yourself. Like fake it to your

44:25make it. She did all the things that we tell our children to do. And then she got made fun of. And then she got made fun of. Well, and here's the thing because could she have possibly foreseen or could any of us foreseen the scale of the shaming? Because, and I really hope that we're not doing this because I have to say that when I was watching this, one of the things that made me feel sick was when they're the montages of the takedown, right? And I'm not suggesting that some of the criticism, particularly about cultural appropriation, break dancing, isn't valid, of course. But the very personal cruel takedown that went global and was on every tonight show and every meme and every place made me feel sick. And it made me feel a bit embarrassed about my job to be honest. Because it made me go, we try hard on this show to talk about issues and things and stuff that's going on in pop culture and not be cruel. We don't always get it right. The world was cruel to reg up. Like unbelievably cool. I don't. But I'm not saying that we are necessarily. But my point is that I don't know that anyone could have foreseen the scale of that takedown. And I remember the

45:28moment that that happened. I was very, very into the Olympics. I maintain that it was a unifying funny. I'm sorry, but you can't do break dancing on the world stage at the Olympics and expect everyone to not say anything. Like, and older white academic women. We delivered that performance. That performance was what Olympic standard. It wasn't. So everyone was going to say something we can't all hold hands and go, great job. But it does. It would be part of a different problem. It does also raise the question of, is cringe the greatest sin now? Because when she's at her lowest in this, she says, I had become cringe. Why is that such a big deal? Like, why did we decide that cringe is the worst thing you can be? True. It's like, it's a way to embarrass someone. And I still maintain that if you looked at her performance and laugh at what Adele said at the concert, I don't think was mean. She said, she was hilarious or whatever. And a lot of people just went, did you see that performance? And they were doing all the different moves. Halloween dressing up as Reagan. I think that's

46:32all fair play. I think that when people got really mean in the conspiracy theories about the cheating and the dare and that I just thought that was unnecessary. That's the nature of the internet. But I maintain that Australia at that moment, the general tone, I think we were trying to have fun with it. So then she had a choice of whether to join in the fun or not. And then what becomes clear in the docko is that initially she was absolutely crushed and mentally in a dark place, as you would be with that level of pile on. Right. And then there is a point at which, and it's the point where Richard Branson calls where she decides to lean into the joke to a point. And now she is competing again. She is on the cover of magazine. She's at events. She's quit her job to be a full time, to be Reagan full time. So she made the decision to lean in not lean out. Would you make that? I've made that decision. I think you've got no choice. I think you've got to. And she brought, and I maintain this a lot of happiness to a lot of people. She brought everyone a laugh that day. And that is a beautiful thing. What did you think about her contention that a lot of

47:34the mean spiritiveness, she said, people don't like women doing things, including women. She sort of, she sort of said that if that had been a man doing the kangaroo move, it would not have gotten to that level of hysteria. Do you think that's true? I don't know if I fully follow her there. I think that performance, it was the Olympics. It was a, like a sport that is professional in context. It was you watch the people like against her. There was something so funny about that performance. And if there is a villain in this story, I truly believe it is the head coach. Yeah, the one who was happy to stand on the stage and yet hadn't given Reagan a hand, hadn't like watched her performance or trained her or given her any resource. Like this is Australia. I think I was thinking about like the, what's the thing in Canberra? The, AIS, the Australian Institute of Sport probably needs to look in the mirror and go, we left breaking down. We just let her left her out there swinging in the wind. I don't know,

48:35though, Amelia, she, I don't know if she said this or if someone said this on that show, when they said, we just want to culture wear no one tries anything and no one steps out of line. I did sort of feel like that. It's like, sure now she's turned this into a thing and she's, you know, going to make money and she's out in the world. But it was brutal the way that the world took her down. That's what I'm getting at. This idea that like to be cringe is so much worse than not paying your taxes or polluting the waterways or being a sportsperson accused of something terrible rather than just being a bad dancer. I just cringe the worst thing. And that's why I think your only choice is to embrace it because there's also something iconic about cringe. It's totally iconic. I think it always will be. I think Reagan is the most famous Australian limping of all time. Yeah. And what how do you think all the other Olympians feel about that? Anyway, I recommend the docker. I do. I found it really interesting. It was great.

49:36It is a prockumentary. We've talked about that a PR documentary in that she made it. But it's really, I thought it was really good. So it was great. Out louders, that's all we've got time for. Gosh, it has been a bit of a long one today. I can talk about Reagan all day. We really could. I'll be so much joy. I could do a whole segment. Do a whole episode. We just did a whole segment. We could do a whole episode on it. I do recommend it though. Anyway, thank you out louders for being here in our areas with us today. And we will be back with you tomorrow. Bye. Bye. Mama Mayor acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on which we have recorded this podcast.