Rebuilding Us: Marriage Podcast - The Death of the Pastor's Wife: Spiritual & Marital Abuse and Where We Go From Here

0:00Life Audio Today we are having a special conversation about the number one rated Netflix documentary called The Death of a Pastry's White. I'm Dana Shea, I'm the host of the Rebuilding Us Marriage Podcast and today is a special edition. I have joining us, my husband, Sean, and I thought this conversation was really timely because of all of the buzz. You are on social media, depending on when you're watching or listening to this. Everyone is talking about this documentary series called The Death of a Pastry's White. And to be honest, I had seen it and I wasn't really going to watch it because I often say I don't like Killy Shows and I didn't know what it was. I didn't know if it was like a crime scene, I didn't know if it was true crime and not really into that. And so I wasn't going to watch it but then a couple people asked me what my thoughts were. And so I decided to watch it, we decided to watch it late one night, we stayed up and we watched this show.

1:02And we both had some pretty strong reactions to it. And so I thought instead of me just making one long post on social media, I wanted to bring Sean on so that we could talk about this in real time. The conversations that we had concerning our marriage and obviously because I'm a marriage coach and work with marriages all the time, we wanted to really make this instructive for those of you who have seen it. Maybe if you haven't seen it, how can we go on from here? What can we learn more importantly from this documentary series that will help us in our marriages? So once we watched it, first of all, we watched it all the way through. I mean, it's only three episodes but it was late. It was like 10 o'clock. I think when we first started watching it, you had to get up and go to work the next day. But it was you who were like, note less, less keep watching it. So when we watched it, when we finished watching it, Sean, like what was what was coming up for you? A couple of different things. One for sure was the abuse of power.

2:02In particular, I'm just against it. I've always been against it. I always say, don't abuse your power just because you have it. I feel that preacher, he truly abuses power all we do and manipulated people. I can't stand it. I fight for an underdog. Just to see it happening, it gives people a bad name. What people? Just in general, people of leadership. It blurs the lines unnecessarily. Where if you're trying to help somebody, people think you're trying to use your power. This is different stuff. Like I said, in particular, that one, how he really manipulated the girls to get what he wanted.

3:08I'm not going to give it away if you haven't seen it. Several of them. People couldn't see it or people wouldn't say anything. That's the crazy part. Where is the oversight? How do you have a church and no oversight? Nobody sees this happening. I think that's where, if we're looking for something instructive or redemptive from all of this, when you look at churches, there's no perfect church. We all know that. But every leader has to have a leader. Someone who's not under any authority or any accountability, that should be a red flag. We're trying not to give away spoilers if you haven't seen it. But there was a scene where he calls his bishop up to pray. There's also a conversation that there was an interim pastor that they brought in that she had with this group of elders. There was some sort of structure in place, but the elders were not empowered to really do anything.

4:13I talk to a lot of new believers, people who are just becoming Christians, or maybe they just started going to church. A lot of people want to know, what do I look for in a church? You don't always know what's behind the right curtain, if you will, when you're first going to a church. But I think every church needs to have not only just a structure of leadership, but who can actually sit that pastor down if he or she starts to go off on the deep end? Who is that pastor accountable to? Who is praying for that pastor? And so those are just some things. And you as a church member, as a regular church member, you can ask those questions. You have the right to know that. Have you been blindsided by infidelity? Or maybe you're the one who messed up, and now you don't know how to rebuild the trust that's been shattered? Listen, healing is possible, but it won't happen by accident. That's why I created the infidelity intensive, a step-by-step online course designed to help couples move from devastation to restoration.

5:20You'll learn how to process the pain, reclaim what was lost, rebuild trust, and reconnect in a way that lasts. I've been where you are. Don't let shame or uncertainty keep you stuck. Take the next step toward restoration at dayneshay.com, for it's slash infidelity intensive, that's d-a-n-a-c-h-e.com slash infidelity intensive, because healing is possible, and your marriage is worth it. And so I think that a lot of times people are disempowered because they don't know what questions they can ask, and you don't know the role that you play as a church member. I think when I look at, we both been in church our whole life, and we've been blessed to be in some really good churches. We haven't been in churches where there's been a lot of abuse or misrepresentation of Christ. Our church, especially the churches that we grew up in as kids, they love the Lord, they love the Word.

6:25There wasn't any, of course there was stuff. There's no perfect church, but we have not been under that toxic leadership. And I wouldn't stand for that. My personality type, I'm not going to do that. But there are people who, like I've heard, who have said, I'm going to read you some of these comments that I got from some of my Facebook friends, but some people who have been in those situations, and I think that when we look at the church as a whole, we all have to keep each other accountable. I think this whole definition of, well, that's the man of God. You can't touch the man of God, touch not the Lord's anointed. That's taken out of context. Like, no, don't go around like, you know, disparaging your pastor, man or woman. Don't go around disparaging your pastor, but to hold your pastor accountable for how they are living their lives is your Christian responsibility, because we're all brothers and sisters. And there should never be a structure. I believe this with all my heart, there should never be a leadership structure where any pastor feels like he or she is untouchable,

7:29where he or she is unaccountable to their members, to the very people that they are serving. And so I think that that was one of the biggest red flags is that that leadership structure, it was in place, but they were again, they were just disempowered. Yeah, I mean, and not just a church, I mean, that's just anywhere. I mean, I said, because you know, you see it in churches, you see it in normal businesses, you know, and where, I mean, it's been going on for so long. And, you know, it's like where someone gets some power and they really abuse that power and take advantage of it. And I said, that's very irritating to me because I've always said, a true leader doesn't have to, doesn't have to use your power and say, oh, do this because I'm so and so. So, you know, it's like people respect you for who you are, you know, like so when you abuse your power, it just messes everything up. I mean, it just, it's tears and blurs line just tears it all down, you know, and my current job, I'm an officer, you know, and I don't have to go around abuse and power.

8:33You know, like, oh, it's because for one, I'm secure myself. So when you're securing yourself, you know, I have to abuse that, you know, I have to say, oh, because I'm so and so, you're going to do this for me or even, you know, like, because I'm because I'm the boss. Come on in here and do things, you know, whatever stuff like that. Me for me, I, you know, I've set a rule. I never have a one on one with someone opposite sex. I always have someone an additional person in the room. So therefore there's no blurr at lines. There's nothing, you know, I have. I have, you know, I have, you know, I have, you know, an opposite gender, you know, with me in there. So therefore, nothing can come back. Nobody can say I did anything and everything is clean, clear. You know, I put a lot of stuff in writing because I like to have a paper trail. You know, I've always done that. And you know, it's come back to save me a lot of times. But therefore you can't say, oh, he said this, you know, whatever. I said, well, here it is right here. Yeah. I think that because when you watch the documentary, it's not even like he's abusing his power, like throwing his authority around.

9:40But to her, like to the woman that he ended up seducing, but I think that the power dynamic is something that is at play, right? Like so you have this young woman. Again, I'm trying not to give it away if you haven't watched it, but you've got a young woman who was enamored with her pastor. Like this, this lady is like, you know, it's as a lot of young women are you look up to your pastor and. And she would have done anything for him she was working in their home like she was young and I don't want people to miss that because I've seen some of the comments are like, you know, it kind of like it was her fault in a sense and I don't believe that at all. I think that it's just going back. We were talking about this earlier when Bill Clinton seduced Monica Lewinsky and that lady was thrown all the way under the bus wheels under right and we were like in college when that whole thing exploded. And everyone was talking about how scandalous of a woman she was and you know, we have the blue dress and all of that stuff, right? But no one held him to the stand. This is the president of the United States of America and a 22 year old intern.

10:47And so the power dynamic is so large that it you can't hold both people to the same level of accountability. And this is what's happening in churches like open your eyes. We've all seen these scandals coming out of churches where some church leaders, some pastors somewhere has had an affair with someone in his congregation. Usually I haven't heard of any women who women pastors who this has happened to yet, but men pastors right like they have an affair with someone and I mean David and Bathsheba go to the Bible and look at how many times people blame Bathsheba Bathsheba was literally a victim of David's choices. And so I think that's the thing that for me was coming up so strong is that you know, you cannot hold two people to the same account and there's such a power differential there. And so for women, I want to tell women like be careful of who you are so enchanted by if I can say it that way. Like be careful of who you're so enamored by.

11:47And put things in place to protect yourself. So I again, I've just been fortunate. I've worked in a male dominated industry pretty much my whole life and the different things that I've done in business and ministry. And I've just been really blessed not to be in a position with men who have taken advantage of me, but there are times because they know someone around the corner. That's why they know you got that. But anyway, I think that there have been times though, like when I've looked back because I really started doing some sort like man could that have been me could I have been caught up in a situation. And I remember that there was a situation where probably I don't this is a while ago, but something potentially could have happened to me, but it was like the Lord sent somebody else to intercept that. And I didn't know at the time that I was in a vulnerable situation. And so years later, I thought back on what happened and what could have happened and other stories that were kind of circulating about similar situations that had happened.

12:52And I was like, wow, God, thank you so much that I wasn't that I wasn't a victim. But let's shift a little bit because you know, we're talking about power differential, but the other thing that really struck me about this pastor was he was obsessed with sex. Like every sermon was about wives, please in your husband. Oh, that's true. I'm sorry. I'm trying not to. But like every sermon. Well, you know, if you haven't watched it, you probably we're just going to spoil it. I'm sorry. Like go watch it or pause this video or whatever. But like every sermon was about wives, please in your husband, wives submit wives do this wives do that. And I'm just tired of that. Like I'm so tired of it because it's not the heart of God. I was listening to something the other day and the it was a pastor and he was talking about how it's not enough for us to just know the word of God because a lot of people will say, oh, that's in the Bible. Like that's what the Bible says. You have to not only know the word of God, but you also have to know the heart of God because anybody can take a scripture and use it out of context. Oh, man, you can make the Bible fit anything you wanted to fit. Right. You can make a say what you wanted to say, right? And if you're persuasive and if your care is mad, and if you're in a position of power or leadership, you can get people to believe all kinds of things about that Bible. And so it's not enough to just be like, well, my pastor preaches the word is what your pastor preaches.

14:18It's not only a touching reflective of the heart of God because the Lord does not put demands on women to do certain things. Should you have sex in your marriage? Yes you should. I'm gonna put this on this one. Should you have sex in your marriage? Yes, you should. Should you make your spouse happy? Yes, you should. However, when it's all about what you can do for your spouse, and then if you don't do this for your spouse, he's gonna stray. And it's your fault women if your husband's straight. I'm like that. I was ready to throw something. Somebody said, you're gonna wanna fight. That's what made me angry. It's because you're using the word of God to oppress people. And that's not the heart of God. And so I think we as believers, this is why yes, you need to read your word. I'm all about that. I'm always talking about know the word, get in the word. But you also need to get to know the Father. And you need to get to know who God is. And his heart for us so that when people come at you

15:18with a scripture, then you're like, I know that that scripture is in there. I see it right here, but that does not reflect the heart of God. I think that a lot of people are afraid, even as I said that out of my mouth, I know that people might push back on that because there's this tendency of wanting to control people's faith. Like if I just let people go around here thinking that they know the heart of God, would if they don't know the heart of God. If we just say, trust the Holy Spirit, what if people start making up attributes of the Holy Spirit? And this is where as a pastor, I say this, we stand on the word of God. You teach the word of God, but you trust God with his people. Like these are not our people. These are God's people. And so you trust that the Lord knows how to speak to his people. When I heard all the, you know, just the manipulation, the outright deception that this man was using, using the word of God, that's like dangerous stuff right there.

16:21Yeah, it's very dangerous. Hey listeners, it's Kelly from Life Audio. We know life gets busy and sometimes it's easy for your faith to get pushed to the side. That's why we created the Good Word, a free weekly newsletter designed to give you a moment to slow down, be encouraged, and reconnect with what matters most, God's Word. Inside you'll find devotionals, guided prayers, podcast recommendations, and other faith-built content we think you'll love. No ads, no clutter. Just good content to help you stay rooted in God's Word throughout your week. Sign up for the Good Word today at lifeaudio.com forward slash the Good Word. That's lifeaudio.com forward slash the Good Word. You know, and that was an everything I was upset because, honestly, I remember I asked you, it was like, how do you recover from that?

17:24Like if someone who is not safe, struggling with even God, and they watched it, it's hard to recover. I mean, I'm just being real. You know, I'm like, I don't know how I will respond. You know, like, well, you know, our church isn't like that, our pastor isn't like that, but so many are. You know, like, so it's a hard, unnecessary battle we have to fight. You know, it's like a lot of stuff. You know, a lot of people have so-called Christians have manipulated the Bible and abused it. And you know, it's given a bad look. And so, you know, as I believe what you say, you know, getting to know the heart of God and having your own relationship with God, you know, so you can decipher it through the nonsense. And that have to rely on a man to say, this is right and this is wrong, you know, you can, that's not right. Let me get out of here and stuff.

18:24Find out when. Yeah, I think, you know, to your question, how do we recover from it? Like, I don't ever make excuses for the church. I get asked all the time, you know, like, because I'm a church leader, right? Like, and I don't make excuses for the church. I'm not like, yeah, but everybody, I don't do that. Like, it is what it is. You know, when I hear scandals and we hear about these leaders falling, that's sad. And it brings shame on the name of God. It really does. But also, it's not only happening in churches. And I think this is what we, I was telling you, like, you know, we've got people in media, right? Harvey Weinstein, Matt Lauer, all these other folks who they're not, they're not church leaders, but they were again in positions of power, abused their position of power, took advantage of women. And so, but we don't stop watching TV, you know, we don't stop going to the movies, we don't stop supporting that industry. And so I think that even though we are hearing, like a lot of these Christian leaders, it doesn't mean that every Christian leader is bad. It doesn't mean that all men can't be trusted. There's some amazing godly men

19:27who are in positions of leadership and women, but I'm just saying specifically men because in this case, this was a man who was abusing his power. So we don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Like, I think you can hold two things at the same time. Like, two things can be true at the same time. The church has flaws and the church is also God's agent of healing and love. And it's, he, it's his plan A. That's what he uses to bring healing and love. And so obviously think about that, right? If you were, if you were Satan, if you were the enemy, you would want to use the tool that God is using to nurture people and to heal people and bring life to people. You would want to corrupt that. And while I'm not saying that people don't have a responsibility, they do. Like, I'm not blaming this man's choices on Satan. This man was broken. And if you watch the documentary series, he was probably the victim of sexual abuse from his father. And that again, doesn't make it right. But this is the thing. I told somebody this today. I said, I think, and I'm saying this as a church leader, I think all church leaders need to have

20:27a psychological evaluation before they can lead. I believe that. I know that's like a, I believe that. And I'm gonna tell you why. Because when people are in church, they're not only leaves, not like you're just at a TED talk. You're not just listening to someone motivate you or inspire you. But you're very faith. Like we believe that we are body soul spirit, right? So your spirit, like the core of who you are, is being affected by someone's leadership or someone's words. And so if you are not right in the head, like if you've got issues that you have not addressed, that can be a very dangerous combination. And so I think that sometimes I was telling someone, I said, a lot of times churches are like needy for people. We're always looking for people to volunteer, or serve, serve, serve, serve, serve. Sometimes we put people in positions that they are not emotionally or mentally qualified to be in. Forget that you went to seminary.

21:28Forget that you know the scripture. Are you well? Like are you well? And I would submit to a psychological evaluation, for sure, because I know that, first of all, I know that I'm healthy, right? And if I wasn't healthy, I wouldn't want to lead people. I would be like, you know what? Let me go do something else. Let me help put boxes together. I will feed the homeless. I'll do something else. But me, like inspiring people with my words, or teaching people what the Bible says. And I know that I am not well. Now what I'm not saying is, if you are bipolar, or if you have, if you struggle with depression, that you can't lead people, I'm saying for real, let's just be real. If you know that the leadership in your church, like you know people have emotional and mental disorders, yeah, I think that we need to be a little bit more discerning about who we're letting lead people as one I'm saying. Don't quote, don't listen.

22:29I'm just, I'm just, this is a raw conversation. But I'm serious. Like I think that we need to be a little bit more selective of the folks that are leading. And we background check people, right? Like most churches background check. So the thing about background check, so is the only thing that's gonna show up in a background check is anything that you've been charged or convicted of. It's not gonna show that your father used to set you on fire when you were five and you've never recovered from that. Yeah. Or that you struggle with a, you have a sex addiction that, like it's not gonna show that. So I think that the onus is on elders of churches and leadership to not just be putting people in positions because they have charisma or because they went to seminary. Like there should be, we just have to be better stewards of that. Yeah, in this situation, I mean, it shouldn't have, if there was proper oversight, it would have never gone on this long. Yeah, because when the girl was working in the man's house,

23:30like first of all, I joke all the time. I'm like, if we ever had a nanny or a housekeeper, she's gonna be 85 years old and unattractive. Because you have somebody in your home taking care of your children, right? Like that, and I know there's probably gonna be people like, no, no, no, no, my, our family had a nanny and she was pretty and she's okay, great. I'm glad that worked for you. That, I just, I'm just not strong enough to be letting you around some woman, some young woman who's cute and who loves my kids all the time because she gets paid too, she can leave. And I'm up here with an attitude and you like, man, that lady's not, you know, she didn't treat my kids that way. So, I don't know, I just feel like we've got to be a little, sorry, I just totally cut you off, but whatever you got said. You had that. I'm sorry, go ahead, continue, carry on. I don't remember. But yeah, I mean, proper oversight should have caught that. So many things should have like been stronger. If I see something, I'm gonna say something and do something.

24:32I'm not just gonna stand by, you know, if I got a bleeds squeak, will, but you know, I mean, I'm gonna confront, you know, like, nah, they're saying happened, isn't it? Nah, nah. But it sounded like our family did try to do that. Our family called the police or family. Sine, like I said, as a brother, I'm going to, to the guy who does abuse in the power. And we're gonna have some words, like, okay, you're gonna have second thoughts. You know, I ain't gonna just be whatever, and blow me off and continue to do what you're gonna do. You're not, that's not gonna happen. I'm sorry. You know, so I, for me, I know that for sure, you know, because I'm, I'm that type, you know, and if it takes my sister to be mad at me for a while, but when things come out, she's gonna realize it, you know, like, wow, you know, but I just know for me, anytime if you know, that's how I am, you know, like, yeah. Yeah. I wanna talk a little bit about submission, because that's kind of like the elephant in the room. Shawn and I have a partnership marriage.

25:33We've never, like, you've never been like, you need to submit to me, and I've never been like, I have to submit to him. We have a partnership relationship, but let's submit to God's purpose together. What God, what is your plan for our family? What is your plan for our marriage? Can we both walk an agreement under that mission, under that plan? So we're both submitted to God's plan. Again, understanding the heart of the Father, right? So like, we don't, we serve each other out of love. So if I cook Shawn cleans up the kitchen, if you cook, I clean up the kitchen. We take turns with who's gonna clean up the bathroom? We share a bathroom. But it's some stuff, like, I was literally thinking about this other day, when did we decide that we're gonna go back and forth? Like, I think it just kinda happened naturally, because I know how hard you were. Like, you are a hard worker, and hopefully you see how hard I work, and we just help each other out. And so that, I think that that is missed on a lot of couples when you're trying to fit into these roles,

26:33you know, a wife has to do this, or a husband has to do that. How about you love each other and help each other out? And when there are things that come up in our marriage, like if there are times, I feel like I'm carrying too much weight, or you feel like you told me once, you were like, you know, I feel like I'm being neglected, because I was working too much. Okay, thanks for telling me that. So now I have a choice to walk in humility and honor my husband and not work as much, but it's not because he's coming in and being like, you need to stop working so much, you better submit to me, and that's not how we roll. And I'm so thankful, Sean, I'm so thankful to you, because- My personal opinion, if you gotta haul around, you need to submit to me, is that you got some insecurities in yourself, that you're lacking somewhere, you know, I don't know what better than thinking you can help, get counseling or so, because if you have to go around, again, you know, this is my, I'm so-and-so, you need to submit to me, you know.

27:34But I wanted to talk about that, because that is how this man controlled his wife so much. You know, you need to submit to me in all things, even to the point where he's hiring homeless people to- Hey, he's- Yeah, okay, I'm not gonna give that away, but like- Jesus, Jesus, don't give it all away. I mean, I still laugh at the whole thing, because you're a pastor, right? And you preach and I'm your armor bearer, you know, and I've been with people with me- I've never called you my armor bearer FYI, so let's just- I don't- Or no, I'm your Bible holder as a caller. That's what somebody at church called him. But like, how do I- When I didn't affect me, I was like, yeah, sure, yeah, yeah. Because we both are operating in our strengths, you are super, like, first of all, you're my protector, right? And so not even just like, oh, so my scary comes up, but just you know me, you know what I'm tired, you know what I've talked enough, you know, like, little things, I've told our congregation once, like, one of the sweet things that you do for me is after I preach, you give me a breath minute, right? And I'm always laughing, because I'm like, people behind are so probably like, oh, dang, but that's like a blessing,

28:35because when you talk a lot, you need a breath minute. And so like, you just do that, just like, it's automatic for you, and I appreciate that. There's never been a conversation where I've been like, all right, Sean, I'm the preacher, I'm gonna get up there, and I'm gonna preach this week and I don't preach every weekend, but I'm gonna get up there, and I'm gonna preach, and I'm the pastor, and you serve me, like, that's just never happened. And again, there are other people who I'm sure have an issue with the fact that there's a woman leader out there in the front, and our husband is sitting back in the background. That is how our marriage works, and I think we have a great marriage, you know, our marriage isn't perfect. But my heart grieves, again, like this pastor was saying to his wife, the Bible says, and so she's thinking, well, I have to do these things, because the Bible says, this man, literally, I'm gonna give this spoiler away. This man literally said, if you do not have sex with your husband when he wants it,

29:36you are committing sexual immorality. I'm like, wow, okay, I said I was gonna read some Facebook comments, because I really think, that what a lot of people, like, what this is bringing up for people, which is a good thing, it's causing us to reexamine our role in our own spiritual development, in our own spiritual discipleship, and not to, like, farm that out on a church leader or a husband or anybody else. Like, you said it, Sean, you have to have a relationship with God, with Jesus, yourself, you have to be in tune with the Holy Spirit, he gives you wisdom. He gives you direction. He gives you discernment. And so if you do not have that relationship with him, you are gonna be vulnerable to not just a crazy husband or whatever, but maybe a leader, maybe a coworker, a family member, it can be anybody. And then have to just be someone that you're married to. So, one of my friends, she wrote,

30:36her husband got angry watching it, because this was a pastor representing Jesus and using his power to control his wife. And then she talked about how it was psychologically manipulative in the name of the Lord, and she said it was disgusting. Somebody else said that it gave them Jim Jones vibes, serial killer vibes, right? It went further than just spousal abuse. Wait, Jim Jones, he wasn't a serial killer. That was the pastor, sorry, sorry, Jim Jones, sorry about that, and now you're not a serial killer. Okay, but she said it went further than spousal abuse, and then she says we need to pray for deliverance and accountability, which I completely agree with. I think I'm not trying to throw this man under the bus. I can't deem anybody soul to hell, and know what I ever want to do that. But again, that's why I'm like, I don't wanna make it just about this one couple. I think we will do ourselves better when we look at what's in our heart. You know, is there pride in my heart? Is there, am I not taking accountability

31:38for my own relationship with the Lord in farming that out on somebody else? Like, is that in my heart? Is apathy in my heart? When I looked the other way, when I see something happening, I was telling somebody earlier, I said, you know, I'm very aware of like, I read the room, if you will. So if something seems off to me, I'm not one to just be like, well, mm-mm. Nope, and I've gotten myself in trouble sometimes because I'll say like, that doesn't look right. That doesn't sound right. That conversation seemed to look, you know, but I want to do that because I think that again, we all have a responsibility to help each other, you know, to keep each other protected. Let's see, someone said, the further I got away from the regular church routine, the easier it is to recognize Aronia's teaching. The marital abuse was horrible and the manipulation cringeworthy. Someone else said, you'll be fighting like, this is one of my friends.

32:39She said, you're gonna be fighting because you're gonna be so mad. I will say that there was someone else who said that the wife was messy and I hadn't seen the docu-series before I read that comment. And after I watched it, I thought, that's interesting that they said that the wife was messy and that kind of goes to like, what do you mean by that? And I will have a conversation with that person, I think. And then I was very, very busy. And when you see it, if you haven't seen it, you'll see your very manipulative and people to dispel for it and continue to fall for it. It's crazy. I think the wife was broken. I think the wife was young. I think she was impressionable, naive and vulnerable. And that put her in a situation where once she got in there, she probably had no idea how to get out of.

33:40So we could go on and on talking about this. I really do think that especially if you are in any position of serving others, leadership position, not you don't have to just be like a marriage coach or a pastor, but I think it's good to watch because as we talked about when we open up the episode, the responsibility that you have as a leader is enormous. And the Bible says, not many of you should aspire to leadership, not many of you should aspire to teach because you're going to be held at a greater responsibility. And so I often think of that, I talk a lot. And I will say the more you talk, the more you have to be careful about what you say, because I've said stuff and I'm like, Lord, because you change, you evolve, you grow, you realize I thought one thing and that was not right. And the Lord reminds you, or he teaches you, or he corrects you of things that you say. But I know I've just purposed in my heart, God, whenever I'm representing your word, man, like help me, Jesus, not to put my own spin on it,

34:44help me to not manipulate other people with the word of God, even your children, like, you know, you can make your children believe things, whether you're using the Bible or not, just by your persuasive words, you can manipulate. And there is a lot of spiritual abuse happening and there is a lot of spiritual manipulation happening. And so we are each other's cheaper, our brother's keeper, right, where are sisters' keepers? So if you see something wrong, say something. If you see something, say something. Don't get under this. Oh, no, that's a man of God. That's the one of God. Say something if you see something off. So I think the way that I want to end is, I want to pray. I want to pray for marriages that if you're a wife listening or watching this right now and you're suffering abuse and your marriage, I don't believe that that is a God. I believe in marriage. I will do everything I can to help people fight for their marriage. I'm a marriage coach, right? I have this podcast. I will help people to fight for their marriages. However, I will not condone abuse. It is not godly and it is not necessary.

35:49And so if you are a woman and you're an abusive marriage, if you are a man and you've abused your power, if you are looking at other people say that I should be this way, but you don't even feel authentic doing that. Like I want to pray and I want to pray for our leaders because there's a lot of pressure. You know, when you're a church leader, when you're a pastor, there's just a lot of pressure and you got a lot of voices coming at you all the time. If people want you to do so many things all the time. And so I think that they need prayer, we need prayer. But yeah, so let's pray. Heavenly Father, I thank you God for the gift of marriage. Lord, marriage was always your idea. It's something that you instituted. You brought husband and wife together. Lord, in your word says that what you have joined together, let no man put a sander, let no man divide, let no man separate. But I do want to pray, God, right now, for the marriages that are struggling, especially the wives, Lord, that are an abusive marriages.

36:50Lord, I pray that where there has been manipulation, using the word of God, where there has been spiritual manipulation, God, where there has been a twisting of your word to get people to do what someone else wants them to do. Coercion, deception, father, I stand against the end the name of Jesus. God, I pray for every husband that he would step into his God-given role as provider protector. God, I pray for every wife that she would step into her God-given role. Lord, God, as Ezra Kinegdo, that helped me, that same word that is used for the Holy Spirit. Father, I pray in Jesus' name that you would heal and redeem broken marriages. God, I pray, Father, God, for those who are wondering, even now, am I in an abusive marriage? Am I being manipulated? Holy Spirit, I pray that you would be the one that would give them discernment, that you would be the one, Lord, to open ears, open eyes, and God, I pray for forgiveness and repentance. I pray, Lord, that you would heal, whatever you can heal, whatever Lord God,

37:51whatever marriages can be healed, I pray that you would heal. And I pray that you would give us the courage as your church, as your body, to speak up when we see things that are out of order. God, I pray, Lord, that you would forgive us for being apathetic and not caring, and just being like, oh, well, it's not my marriage, but that Lord, we would truly care for one another and our marriages. God, I thank you for my husband. I thank you, God, for our marriage. I thank you, God, for where you have brought us from and for where you are leading us to. Thank you, God, for even the privilege right now of talking on this podcast and sharing our thoughts. God, we just lift up Mike Amiller's family continually as they continue to grieve for her. This has not happened that long ago. And I just pray, God, that you would bring some good out of this terrible tragedy. And Jesus name, amen. Well, thank you guys so much for listening and watching Sean just y'all cut. So if I had a rough cut coming back in, that's why I'm like, you don't cut the show with the world. So thank you for listening, watching. This has been a long episode.

38:52I normally don't go this long. And I'm sure I'll have more thoughts. So I'll post something on Facebook. If you're not following me already, you can go to facebook.com.com slash Mrs. Dana Shea. That's MRS, D-A-N-A-C-A-C-E, specifically for this conversation. And I would love to hear your thoughts. There's been lots and lots of comments that have been shared, but let's not let this just be about that one couple. Let's examine ourselves and let's do our parts to make sure that we are living marriages that are truly God or dang God in Christ's center. So thanks so much for listening. I will see you on the next episode. Take care. Dedicating time each day to spend feeding our minds and our hearts, the truth of God's word, is immensely helpful in our growth as followers of Christ. I'm John Stongy, and each day I host a show called Daily Devotions with Pastor John. On the show, I spend just a few minutes taking an application look at one or two verses of scripture before coming to the Lord in prayer. You'd like to make a habit of spending more time

39:53meditating on the truth of God's word. You can listen to Daily Devotions with Pastor John at lifeaudio.com or on your favorite podcasting app.