Rethinking the Paranormal, Part One | Grave Talks CLASSIC

0:00Today on the Grave Talks, rethink everything, a conversation about death and spirits and ghosts with Aaron G. Thompson. What if everything we thought we knew about ghosts and hauntings was wrong? What if the conscious entities that some have found ways to interact with were not in fact who we thought they were? Not demonic, not malevolent or even intending to confuse, just a form of energy that we had not yet considered. Today we go down the road of learning about echo to rest real quantum mechanics and the science of how why ghosts ghost with Aaron G. Thompson. I feel like a snowflake with this, I really do, because I didn't have any crazy scary thing that I wanted answers for. I, well I guess I did. I, I take that back. I have a crazy scary thing, but it was very arbitrary. I was eight years old and I had a random fear of death.

1:04So nothing really paranormal about it for the most part. And I just kind of held on to that. I think that was a seed that was in me. And about my teen years, about 15, 16, I started asking the question to my peers, two coaches, two ministers, you know teachers, parents, family, do ghosts exist. And I got half the folks said yes. The other half said no almost directly down the middle, split wise, but all at the same answer just because, just because. Um, for you know, teenager, I'm like just because that's weird guys. I mean, should there be something with this? Some science? I mean, if it's out there, we should be able to figure it out. And I guess I decide if I want to know something, I got to figure out myself. So I hit my, why I've been at this point in, in time, you know, 2020 here, I've been

2:09doing this for 21 years. I started back in 1999, aggressively and actively pursue answers. And I just hit the books. Two years before I hit, you know, on site at all, but I did not believe. I did. I kind of thought it was more junk than not. Honestly, I'm like, man, those are crazy. People are crazy, you know, seeing things. That's the psychology and then and all this stuff. So I, but I really went unbiased. I went in with a Bible in one hand, a science book in the other hand and went right down the middle. What ways are going to take me? If any, and I just started hitting sites, reading about tactics, I never had a mentor. So I was kind of interpreting as I, as I went with some of the written stuff. But yeah, I just learned a lot of folklore and educated myself a whole heck of a lot and, and educated myself a whole lot more since the first couple of years. But yeah, we can definitely get into some of that stuff. So when, when you're a teenager, you're getting those answers, well, just because and,

3:13and this is still in the back of your mind, this, this fear of death, was it really initially kind of a quest to, to calm that fear to be like, okay, even if I do die, at least I get to be a ghost or at least I get to go to, to this magical place or that magical place or go burn over here, whatever. It's at least an answer. Um, is it just, just trying to get to finding what that answer is because it's confusing with all the, you know, religions or belief systems that are out there. So totally, totally is. Um, the, well, the idea was, how do I want to live my life? I, I wanted to hit that young enough where I knew if I should be skydiving, rock climbing, non-gratting at all, I just stay in my mom's basement, play video games. Sure. Um, what's going to be the safer route because, you know, if we're deleted and it's nothing, maybe I should just enjoy some adventures and some video games, play it safe. Yeah. But, uh, there's no, like, I'm a serial killer. Why not, you know? Yeah, let's do this, guys. Um, so, so yeah, I just wanted to see how I needed to position my, my, my life ultimately.

4:19And I knew when I, when I had the fear of death, it was kind of, well, it's kind of funny hindsight. Um, I thought crap. Um, I had my head, you know, this is mind you and eight year olds mindset at the time. Uh, I wanted to be remembered before I died, you know, because, because that would be the, the closest thing to mortality, right? Uh, at least for me at the time, because we have, we're just going to be deleted. Yeah. So how, how do we become in a mortal, either a, a movie star or be president of the United States of America? So I could probably do president, though, and I just got to do a couple of years. As far as when you were starting to dig into this and you're, you're trying to figure out what, you know, what is this stuff that, what is this ghost stuff all about? Is, is this more junk than not? What, what were some of the things that were leading you down that path of, of kind of feeling? Yeah, I don't know. I, I kind of think this stuff is a little more junk than it is actual science. Oh, man, such a, yeah, it's such a, such a awesome question because it, I had a lot

5:22of moments of discovery, I think I like to call them, um, where I would be, it might you, you know, two years of books, smart before hitting, hitting my first site, my first site of hit when I was 19 years old. Um, I was obsessive. And when I talk about obsessive, you know, everyone's around, you know, kid in their video games or kid in there, you know, they're, they're passion, right? Well, think of a 17, 18 year old teenager that just dove headfirst obsessively into this. That was me. I started learning the paranormal and psychopedia. I mean, not learning, memorizing it because I thought that would be cool. I got to like, these. So I don't. Anything beyond that. It's like, well, I can do eight or D. That's it. I have no clue about EVP. Very knowledgeable on the first four letters, can tell you everything, but, yeah, I can say all about reports and all sorts of. But, uh, yeah, so, uh, I hit my first site and no matter how much book, you know,

6:24reading you do and all that fun stuff, um, even if I had a mentor, I probably would have questioned this being myself, but I didn't understand what that, uh, what that feeling was when you're on site. When you really are in an active area, I mind you again at this point, I'm still skeptical. I'm trying to keep it very unbiased, but yet there's some interesting things happening. Um, say I'm in, uh, it's winter time. Everyone's cold on the team that I pull out to the cemetery and I'm the only one comfortably warm standing by a past loved one. Um, a coincidence is kind of a curse word. Uh, no, no, days I fall back to. So it's interesting, but, you know, I dad a log and I moved on, um, but there was a moment where the energy, uh, where, you know, you feel this, this very uncomfortable unsettling. I want to say static, but it doesn't even feel like static. It's like layers of static-ish stuff, you know, pulling at you and hitting you and making

7:28a gut feel weird and your head feels funny. Um, those moments I must miss took for fear and those happened a lot and I was like, why am I super scared? Um, of this moment, like uncomfortably, um, aesthetically, you know, visceral, scared. I want to get out of the place and some other locations that look like they're straight out of a terrifying horror movie. I'm perfectly fine walking in. It was, it was, it was confusing, um, for me to put that in consideration because I wasn't in the mindset to, um, illustrate that big energy or at least some form of something. But it, it really took, uh, you know, how I was like, I believe it when I see it. Well, it took an extreme moment, um, to witness the full, uh, full apparition, right, right in front of me manifest. Uh, I did see it manifest by, did see it de-manifest, which was fascinating. Um, the neat thing was there were two people on site that went as that with me.

8:32One was a legit of it, skeptic or cynical. A cynic, if you want, whatever you want to call, no, I think you're more skeptical, but she was also a minister. Um, so her system didn't, uh, didn't acknowledge this type of, uh, visual. Um, stimulation. I think they'd call that, uh, what, what, when she ended up running out of cemetery, terrified, actually, I think they'd call that, um, okay, I think of the word, like a moment of, uh, enlightenment. Okay. So, so just to understand this correctly, she was there. Did, was she able to see what you saw or, or you said she ran out of their terrified? But what, so I'm assuming she had some sort of reaction or, or did see something or was it more so I saw this, but I'm not going to acknowledge that I saw this or accept that, that I just saw this or explain that to me. Oh, she quit her ministry afterwards. She saw something. Okay. Um, yeah, she, she went a different path in life. I'm, be interesting to follow up with her and have a conversation.

9:35But, um, what I went in this time frame, um, I had no clue of the site. It was an outside cemetery. No vehicles allowed in this area. So it, it was a very, a desolate, very unpopulated zone. No lights. Uh, there's a pretty bright moon out that night. And one of the individuals was a psychic feeler that went with me. At the time, I didn't really believe in the psychic junk. Um, I'm like, uh, I don't go. That's weird enough. And I'm still questioning that stuff. So, sure, you can hang with me and come with me. But yeah, whatever. No judgment. Um, well, I literally saw him filling up, uh, apparitions leg. And that apparition to me moved like a flipbook animation. And it was, uh, it was like a Disney stage effect where smoke was blowing up into a glass mold of a fisherman's shaped body. Um, I saw details of the beard, the hat, you know, the full, full thing. Um, my froze.

10:36It wasn't bad as I thought. And throughout my arm, um, to stop the, uh, the minister lady, uh, she witnessed a similar of visual that I did, but hers was more, um, just free-floating fog thick smoke. Um, but it all disappeared at the same time. And me and the psychic, audibly said, he's gone at the same exact time. That's when she ran out. Well, so you're having, obviously, this is a very obvious experience. This isn't a, I'm feeling uncomfortable or I'm feeling odd and I don't know why. I can't really measure it other than just saying this out loud to people or recounting it. Everyone saw this, this visual, um, manifestation. When you, when, and you had this experience, were you, were you doing anything to try and, and, and bring this out to be seen? Were you speaking?

11:36Were you requesting something to show itself? Was there anything used or did this just kind of, you know, turn a corner and boom, there's a holy shit. There's something here. Um, kind of turned the corner, Tantan. There was nothing. Uh, I was actively investigating. Of course, who went out. I had my 35 millimeter disposable camera in hand. Of course, I didn't, I didn't slap a picture because I was stunned on what I was saying. Sure. But, uh, haven't cool. But yeah, again, experience. Um, no, we, we didn't do anything special. Didn't expect for anything special. And funny thing is I was questioning myself so hard the next day. I literally started looking up the phone number to a psych ward. I thought something was super messed up with me. Like, I didn't know why I saw that so detailed. Sure. Um, it, it, it messed with me. It melted my head. I, I don't know how to explain more than my, my thought, I remember my exact thought at the time was Aaron. This is your fault. Monsters exist.

12:37Yeah. Yeah. I like, I keep chasing these damn things. I don't know how to happen if they're out there. It's understandable. I mean, if you're, you're, you're very, you know, scientific and, in nature and, in thinking, but you're, you're wanting to to see, you know, what is there going on? There must be something too. This was the amount of people that, that have these experiences. And then you have one yourself. Um, there's a lot of things that could go through your mind of, you know, did I just psych myself up to, to see, see something and, you know, did it just, you know, did I see something because I wanted to see something, you know, almost like children sometimes can do that. I, I remember doing that watching Thriller too many times as a child. And then I, I swear to God, Michael Jackson was standing in front of my bedroom. Before we knew he was touching kids, this is, you know, it was more so the zombie part that was scaring me, not the other part. retrospectively, it's even scarier. But, but in my mind, I, that's what I had had seen. It wasn't really there. It wasn't a ghost, but my mind conjured that up and our minds are sort of capable of doing

13:39that stuff. So, but having, having another person right next to you, though, that, um, that saw that, did that bring some comfort or confirmation that you're not crazy? It was the perfect storm. Not necessarily with me, I'm an overthinker, right? I need, I need more than just these other people that could potentially be crazy too. Sure. The, uh, and the Sagic filler was the first one who, who acknowledged it. When I looked over, because he said, Aaron, there's something in front of me. I looked over and I saw a giant, like a shadow or a black mass in front of him. I thought it was, was Heather, um, with, with them. So then all of a sudden, I heard Heather cracking some leaves behind me as she stepped. So I'm like, crap, what am I seeing? So I'm actively looking. Mind you, I have no idea what potentially could be here. It was really a rando, uh, just a cool location. Um, and it, uh, I remember walking over looking at the moon, looking at the trees, looking at the stones, looking at the shadows there.

14:40So I was actively trying to, uh, the bug, you know, as I was moving forward, like, what the hex that weird free floating shadow like I was totally thrown off. Um, until I saw it, um, the neat thing was the next day before I hit the phone number, before I, I followed through with the call. I'm like, well, let me, let me do some investigative work. So I decided to do some historical, uh, research real quick on that day, some folklore research and area research. Um, it was an 1840 cemetery, the oldest post-cemetery on the island that I was at. And supposedly in the, um, 1840s, a father and son both passed away. They died at a boating ex. It was a crash. Um, killed them both on the impact or the case may be, but they're the ones supposedly guarding are supposed to be watching over the cemetery. And I went back in the day time to the cemetery, uh, alone, shortly after, you know,

15:42and the stone that I witnessed, this apparition is that he relies father and son. Um, they were the first ones that were buried on the, on the cemetery. Wow. Leo. Yeah, perfect storm. I couldn't have asked for a more complex and exciting puzzle to be put together for me. I've never seen anything since or before, honestly, but that moment accelerated me into, into more the research. So it was pretty, pretty awesome. Yeah, I mean, I suppose once you have an experience like that, the next thing you want to do is have another experience like that, um, on demand or, or, or some way to, to conjure this up again. But obviously that's not how that works. So you have this experience early on in your investigating. And then obviously that sparks more interest to the, the path of, of doing just that investigating spirits in the paranormal. Um, and, and you don't have a mentor, you're doing your own thing of just doing the research of,

16:45you know, what is out there at the time. Um, you know, many years ago, uh, far less was available to, to people at that moment. So how do you continue? Where, what, what, what, what does this path take you in terms of investigating this and trying to figure out what the hell is going on? Well, I started doing some pretty, pretty epic ghosts that had more Pulitzer Geist, um, behaviors. And mind you, that's, I think, just a trigger word. I, we, we label, we layer things as much as we can as humans. It's fun to put things in boxes. But um, it was a Pulitzer Geist's German. It means no easy ghosts, just a playful spirit by definition, my actual definition. Um, but what it is is a spirit that can physically interact with you. Um, and that's really odd. So any spirit can really turn to a Pulitzer Geist upon a little bit of, I don't want to say provocation, provocation, but, uh, uh, conversation, you know, tasks, missions. Um, so after the fact, like I said, I, I started doing a lot of, in 2000s, I did a lot of residential

17:51homes, but I actually slowed down a lot and went back to the book. A research and just, um, quick, uh, not self experiments, but experiments, um, contained within my circle that I had a lot more control over. Once the TV shows started coming out, so I remember seeing, it was so funny. I remember seeing ghost hunters come out. And immediately, I'm, I'm seeing, uh, I'm, I see this magazine, um, that has their cover on it. And I'm literally, I mean, I'm either holding the camera, like a giant TV camera, because I was in television production in school, or I was about to go to class or something like that. And I'm thinking, crap, why don't I think of this? I'm holding the gear. I got it was all personal. Those assholes. Like, yeah, but, but then I got, then I was okay with it. Yeah, I was instantly okay. Mind you, I was so fresh. I didn't know how the media and the TV world really worked at the time.

18:51Um, and I was like, okay, well, this is good because I just wanted to form myself. Now these guys are going to get out for the rest of the world. Things are going to be good. They're going to figure it out. People are going to see it and boom, I don't have to do, I don't have to work as hard anymore. That's my, my mindset when seeing this wonderful new thing come into paranormal TV. And mind you, there are some shows before I actually did, um, watch and try to learn off of unsolved mystery. I have all the agencies still. There's like a set that they saw that. Yeah, that's by your, yeah. Yeah, all the ghost, the ghost series and all that. Oh, yeah. It's on demand now. You can just, you can just press the button and it plays and it makes it that much more joyful. I just like to play the intro and scare my children. That's very, very good one. Those are the best paranormal shows ever. That is, that to me, when I, I referenced that show so much on my podcast because I,

19:53so many of the first concepts I learned about, I learned from Robert Stack walking around the Queen Mary, you know, and it's like, Oh, an EVP. Oh, what is that? When they, in the bulkhead of the Queen Mary and the foot, there was so many good stories. I could recite some of them. You know, and I know what I should do. I should redo all those episodes, but in the, in, you know, the procedures that I do nowadays, go back like, oh, he awesome. Go back and try and find some of the houses. And, and I've actually, I've attempted that with one case because there was one case that was very close to where I grew up. Do you remember the bunk beds, the, the, the, the haunted bunk bed episode on unsolved mysteries? It's not the one to monster guy that like, I mean, there's a brutal one where I remember where they called the, they called the operation B sent it literally like, throw this woman there. They just agreed this one. No, I don't believe it was that. It was, you know, from a town in Hora con, I grew up in Wisconsin and this, this town was like 20 miles down the road.

20:54Yeah. And I was like, oh, this is very far from where I live. And the, the bunk beds they brought into the house and these, these kids started having these experiences in their rooms. And then an uncle slept over in the bedroom just to, sounds kind of creepy and fucked up there. But, but at the time it was completely normal. Of course. And he apparently freaked out and saw something as well. The father saw the garage on fire ran outside to try and put it out and it was, it was an unfire anymore. His lunchbox goes flying across the living room. It was a big story. And it was just, it was one of the creepier ones. So all these years later, and a 25 years later, I'm doing a podcast and I'm talking about ghosts. And I'm seeing this very interesting trend pop up of bunk beds in ghost stories. And I don't know what the hell it is. But if there's a random object that has had more attachments to ghosts in hearing probably

21:5610,000 ghost stories over the last six, seven years, it's bunk beds. And I don't know why. And I, that's what people want to be on top bunk. Yeah. It's totally bizarre. It's such a random object to be connected with a haunting and people are connecting it very frequently. I, I, I laugh, but I don't, I don't pull any, I had a super active imagination. I really did. And I'm totally open with that when I was younger, call it, you know, a little bit of supernatural views and I was younger or not. I'm definitely not putting my foot down on paranormal. However, I, I do recall this very vivid, very accurate, very physical story that my mom could probably, well, maybe repeat back on her perspective that would match pretty accurately. When I was, there was a, with a small house growing up up into age seven and I was about five, six at this point, power went out.

22:56Goosh, you know, no power in the house. So lightning storm outside or wherever the case may be. Well, I have always liked adventures. So my first go to is let's go to the drawer with the flashlights, take the flashlights and go downstairs because we, I mean, downstairs were I played, but it was still kind of creepy if I think about it and automatically. And it was like no windows and it was just like a catacombe. I don't know. It was the best place for a flashlight. Trust me. So I went downstairs and with the flashlight and got to the bottom of the steps, shining on the other side past the bunk bed. Yeah. And shining on the other side and, you know, I saw, I saw my shadow and, and you know, it's dancing on dancing. And then I realized the flashlight's in front of me. I'm not dancing. That's not my shadow. About that time, I realized that like I'm not sure if it said something, but it did this

23:59a very dramatic stop. Kind of a stiff body thing and just bolted bolted to the to its left. Uh-huh. Out of the view of my flashlight, I tripped all the way upstairs, dropping the flashlight, batteries probably went out everywhere. And I, yeah, tripped probably on every step. Yeah. Going upstairs is terrifying. It's bizarre. The amount of things that are connected with a bunk bed in the story. The, the, what I was getting to with the Unsell mysteries is I've tried to retrace that one. I mean, keep in mind, these were all filmed in like 85. So half the people are dead that were, you know, the, the adults in the video giving the accounts. But the, I couldn't find anything about it, but I did find a lot of people who remembered that story. The closest have ever come to anything being traced to a bunk bed. Because I've been asking, well, what, what model was your bunk bed back in 89, you know, like anyone's going to know this, but just trying to see if there's any consistency where they would.

25:04We know where they metal. What did they look? You know, if there's anything that we can put together on this and we did have one story of someone taking the, the lumber of the bunk bed and finding pentagrams being written on it. And it was a fairly legit caller. It wasn't, it didn't sound like I'm just going to fuck with you because this is a great story to fuck with. And it really was like, this is interesting. And I suppose, you know, you could have some, I don't know, I don't know where these things were made. Maybe somebody in some factory did something literally with the lumber. Maybe there was something to that. I don't know. I do know that the story in the, the horror con bunk bed story was they got rid of the bunk beds. They destroyed it. They took it to a dump and their problems were solved. Nothing else happens. They really did connect it to that bunk bed. But it's just a very bizarre object or piece of furniture that, that seems to hold things. It's not grandma's hope chest. It's the bunk bed. You got a big sir water pence. You know,

26:07it's like, how did this happen? Very, very strange. Anyhow, yes, that's, that's our tangent on solve mysteries. And how it, and how it shaped our lives. So going back, back to your stories. And, and as you continued to, it figure out ways to investigate, there's all sorts of tools and things that people obviously use for investigating. And those have evolved over the years. I'm not a big tech guy. I really don't do many. I don't really investigate. I just kind of moderate this program and let people share their stories. That's a lot of work. I'd rather just hear them from afar than actually be there. But obviously there's been evolutions of equipment over the years. Some people just, some will stick back to, well, you know, just your own intuition using a regular old tape recorder. That's all you need. Some will have God knows what they've disassembled their Xbox. And, and then they've, you know, they somehow integrated a Nintendo switch to it. But they're also just using that

27:09to play Mario while they're investigating. I'm ready for them to do. You know, Craig off of, off of Ninja Turtles that grow about body with the brain inside the belly. Yeah. Yeah. I'm waiting ready for that tool where someone just implants their brain in there. Like, let's find ghosts. And somehow actually, somebody will use the old toy from 1989 from Kenner and somehow integrate that into a ghost hunting tool. But I mean, but really every, there's all these different methods that exist now that people swear by. And I know this is an area that you've really dived into as far as the science behind what people are seeing, how they're seeing it, what we're using, what we're not using. Talk about that. Talk about what people have traditionally been using, what the successes have been, haven't been. And, and where do you think that should be going? Um, well, honestly, we're using all the wrong devices. And we haven't been for years. And there has been a lot of new devices, um, introduced, but a lot of them are same concepts as others.

28:14I mean, it's just tomato tomato sometimes where slapping this coat of paint on this, but really it's the same concept. If you think about the ITC realm, which is the instrumental transcommunication, that's the idea to communicate through the frequencies via visual, static within a TV as a quick example or, um, uh, the audio, which is more popular. And I think got popularized through the Frank Box, but there's boxes before Frank's Box. He just made it more digestible and easier to, I don't want to say market, but, you know, to get out there. Because before it was more of a manual switch, it would do. Frank made all that easier for us. Um, but if you think of the SB 7-11, I know they're trying with different frequencies, but everyone's trying with different frequencies and different sounds and, and so forth. And even some people put frequency hertz down to, I think what are the, quote me if I'm wrong, they're like four,

29:1526 is like Earth's frequency or something like that. Some people try matching audio files with that. Um, which I'm very, very commendable and I'm glad people are out there trying to do that, but I think they're not looking we, you know, as a whole, or not looking at the big picture. So if we step, if we step back on all the devices, all the tools that we use, um, we're, we're digging into the radiation at the end of the day. We're in the alpha zone. So there's alpha beta gamma, you know, gamma's atom bombs, lasers, all that fun stuff. Um, and, uh, you know, beta is more of the bad chemical stuff, even going to the microwave a little bit there. But the alpha zone is your frequencies, your short ways and whatnot. That's where we're at. And that's quantum, uh, and, you know, I have my, I have my twists and turns with, with quantum, not too, um, as my research has developed, but traditionally known quantum, uh, physics, which is calculable, which is awesome.

30:22But we are in a very uncalculable zone. You can't, you can't, uh, I don't want to say, can't reproduce, because there is a way to reproduce. And we've been able to do that, which is pretty fantastic. But it's hard, it's, it's difficult. Um, there's a lot more layers and just having the device there. Um, it's almost an extension of your well-being. It's what rapport have you built with the energy around? You know, what do you know about it? And, um, we are more in the quantum mechanics, the quantum theory. And I think people like that a little more than they should. I hate it. I hate it. I want to calculate this. You know, I want to reproduce, snap into the finger type stuff. Um, but people, if it's in a theory-based, hey, everyone can have their own theory and everyone can be happy. Uh, if you're in this field trying to do it right, you're not going to make everyone happy. That's just the end of it. If you're making everyone happy, doing something wrong, got to check yourself. Me, I piss people off daily. I get the emails to prove.

31:25But again, I'm in it for the science. So the, uh, when I say SB seven, I know sometimes I'm talking in some of your audience, maybe like SB, what spirit box? Um, when I say spirit box, I just basically mean broken radio, uh, twists and turns through frequencies. We, myself and my, uh, my co-researcher, Nick, we like to run those boxes or that box at 100 milliseconds. It's one 10th of a second. So super fast. And we like to get instant responses, not responses, you know, seconds later, we're talking, we're talking right away. We, we recognize those being more valid than a response that comes, you know, five seconds later or beyond. Um, and we want multiple syllables. We don't, we don't want to do a simple yes or no because there's something called parodolia. The most popular example of parodolia is the man and the moon. Uh, maybe one probably

32:26recognizes that you look in the moon, you see an image of a man. People see faces commonly. We look in clouds. It's easy to see. We look at toast. We see Jesus. So, uh, it's, it's easy to, uh, to look at a picture, look at an image or hear something and just go to something that you want to hear or recognize the good possibility. And that's what you lean towards. So hard to check yourself in this, in this field. Um, I'll get to a later, but recently I had a hard, hard check on myself. Like, like, it's kind of weird. I was in tears. Uh, it was, it was such a, uh, such a, uh, data, um, kind of discovery, uh, point to me that, that took me in a position that I, that, uh, it still went with my research, but it, it wasn't what I thought it was. And it, it was just a shock. And I had to keep telling myself, I go, it's not, not my emotions, not my feelings, not,

33:29you know, I'm doing this dad, if the dad takes me this way, I gotta go this way. And so, um, I'm okay with it now. I'm okay with it. It's, it's just, it was, it was a hard, it was a hard pill. It's wallowing. And I'm going to challenge in 2020, uh, this whole year. Maybe, maybe it sticks, maybe it does it, but it, it seems the most valid way to, uh, to explain, um, the activity and what ghosts and spirits are. It's just, I opening that wraps up the first part of our conversation. Be sure to press subscribe wherever you download podcasts so you don't miss that. You want ad free access to all of our episodes. Simply sign up through Apple podcasts, even tried for three days free and binge away with no commercials. You'll also get advanced access to all of our episodes well before they're released to the public. All commercial free Apple podcasts, check it out or patreon.com slash the grave talks. Until next time, I'm Tony Bruceke. Thanks for listening to the

34:34grave talks.