REVENGE OF THE NERDS (1984) - The Cine-Files One Takes #4

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3:15slash CineFiles that C-I-N-E-F-I-L-E-S and the discount will automatically apply some exclusions apply. Hello everyone and welcome to another brand new episode of our new show here on the CineFiles called The One Takes. And today we are doing a one take on a 1984 arguably comedy classic or guilty pleasure called Revenge of the Nerds from director Jeff Canoe and starring Robert Anthony Edwards Ted McGinley Timothy Bussfield and a host of other fantastic actors including Julie Montgomery Larry B. Scott Curtis Armstrong Brian Tochi Michelle Meyer my rink Matt Salinger Donald Gibb their ogre the great James Cromwell John Goodman and Bernie Casey and David Wall so quite a collection of actors. I am John Roca with and the other half here of the CineFiles

4:21stunning Steve Morris here with us as well Steve how are you how are things my friend I think you should have introduced me as nerdy Steve Morris because certainly the high school kid who is you know it's 84 so this is my sophomore year yeah went to see this movie and I related a lot to what I saw on the screen I was just to say like this might be the most complicated movie that we've never decided to talk about because it's it's literally not available anywhere right and I think part of the reason is this is a controversial movie and yes it is a movie that leaps both feet into a whole bunch of stereotypes and it definitely has some very some real questionable stuff two two of which are like really really awful the you know when you think about them and yet I'd loved this movie in the 80s and I think this is like I know that the people the one thing

5:22people get angry at us about more than anything else is obviously politics and it's all you know when we get into issues of gender and sexual preference and race and all that stuff and I know that like pisses people off and they think we're pushing our liberal agenda and Donald and I obviously are both livers but I actually think there's something else going on then I kind of I've been thinking about a lot since we decided to do this movie yeah is that you know I understand that when we go into those issues that that can upset some people that are listening but the other side of it is they're also like we're doing the searchers right now yeah there are a lot of people who might not even watch the searchers because they've heard about the stereotypes of Native Americans because they know that's gonna offend them and part of what we do is to go through and talk about what is the experience of watching this film and I don't think we can talk about that experience unless we deal with the things that are bothering you know that some people are hurt by and that's to so like that's to protect them to make them feel seen and and that their perspectives are shared and we're gonna have to walk a tightrope on this one because I genuinely like this movie and I've

6:27genuinely bothered by some of the things in it and I don't want to throw any art away and even if they're things in it that we don't like I think we should still explore it well I think what's when you look at films like this and look we're speaking about this movie as two straight men and who watched this movie in the 80s where nudity on film was titillating for us in the 80s it was not something we could go online and see randomly no problem within seconds this is something where you still had to like you know get your buddies to get you a a magazine or you get your older brothers magazine or you look at national geographic there was still the titillating idea of nudity female nudity and certainly the male gaze is a part of a part of this movie and certainly there are issues with Brian Tochi's character with some of the Asian stereotype in this movie and certainly the stuff that happens at the fun house which everybody in the cast has

7:30roundly said over and over again in reunion get together as it conventions that is a very problematic scene so I think that's the real that's the real real big one and the other ones are of course varying degrees of offense in the movie but what I always look at with these issues and I think these issues of valid I think these conversations are great because they're important conversations to have because we progress as human beings but I think you can look at what the message and the heart of the movie is and I'm with you I watched it again to have our conversation a couple times actually and I enjoy this movie I don't love it but I certainly enjoy this movie it's not a great movie but it's heart there at the center is about the feeling of othering being othered by a society that rejects you steps on you pushes you down dismisses you and makes you feel less than and shames you for the gifts you've been given that is of intelligence knowledge and the ability

8:30to understand the world and function within the world as an intelligent person you know what's that line what's that line yeah but you're it's a shitty line I can't remember the movie's like yeah but your kids are going to be serving me fries when I get so it's just that kind of thing of like you see here this kind of dismissiveness towards the nerds and so I think this movie came along at a time Steve when the idea of nerd dumb the idea of nerds was starting to become part of like the pop culture conversation and this is the beginning of the nerd explosion that we see now this was like the first shot across the ball this movie that nerds have a voice too nerds can be spoken about too and they have value and we had before seen nerds be punch lines in movies like in Greece with Eugene we've seen that happen and so this was the first kind of attempt to like make this culture have a little bit more respect within our society also coinciding Steve with the explosion of technology and computers in our society in the mid 80s as well well the

9:33couple of things about this the first thing is and again I'm like you I am not saying revenge of the nerds is a great film or a great piece of art or anything like that you know that's part of why it's fun to do these one takes is that yeah we're not gonna we're not gonna do a deep dive on revenge of the nerds to explore all of its themes but what's interesting to me is there's a phenomena where something that is progressive trying to push the ball forward and one particular era can look regressive at like it's pulling that ball behind in another era the most the two most obvious examples and again I'm not comparing revenge of the nerds to this are Uncle Tom's cabin most important book most one of the most red books in the world one of the pillars of the abolitionist movement is Uncle Tom's cabin but if you look at that book today first of all just the name an Uncle Tom is obviously been put in a different place and it is as clichéd and stereotypical a depiction of the life of a slave as you could possibly imagine and so today we kind of look at that book differently the same is true of Huckleberry Finn again not comparing revenge of the nerds

10:36to Huckleberry Finn but this is a book that really really was looking at race in a way that was really progressive in 1885 or whenever it came out and now people won't teach it in schools because of its constant use of the N word and the thing for me is we don't throw out Uncle Tom's cabin and we don't throw out Huckleberry Finn and one of the biggest reasons for me and this is why I think looking at revenge of the nerds is actually gonna be fun and interesting is that's what shows you where the history is that's what shows you where you came from that's what shows and so we should look at it's like okay this is what we thought in the 80s to some degree and here's all the stuff we were totally blind to when this movie came out but I also think this movie and we'll get to the public stuff but like I want to focus first on like what is so good about this movie I think this movie is prescient in a lot of ways watching it in 2026 and I mean both the good and the bad and by that I mean we see here that these nerds are trying to be endless and

11:41Steven I or nerds plenty of you listening to us are fucking nerds and this is about nerds this is about like seeing yourselves on the screen the quiet like you could you are hiding yourself I mean I was like as Steve mentioned recently on an episode we did like I I've talked about this many times I was a fat bowl a kid with bowl haircuts I carried a leather briefcase to school as my backpack all through middle school and the first two years of high school I was beat up constantly I my mother picked out my clothes till I was in high school so like there is levels of nerddom that we've all experienced which I love about the ending when all these people come out of the stands because it's that feeling I like we had to hide ourselves because the popular kids would beat you up which I got beat up or would make fun of you ridicule you embarrass you in class and no one else would step up to defend you in this movie in a way shows that what's coming that the speech by Lewis at the oh by Gilbert at the end like he's saying this that he's this is

12:47essentially a shot across the bow of what's to come because he's saying essentially that nerds deserve respect deserve their place in society and we will see that throughout the decades that follow nerds become the predominant pop culture group in our world mainstream group in our world now we see Elon Musk there we see so many of these other people that we would call nerds who are in country Steve Jobs who are in control or have have created things that have made our lives incredibly rich and rewarding but on the other side some of the negative stuff the way they objectify women in this movie we see that the nerd culture within fandoms have body-shamed women insulted women attacked women death threats at women so the same people that wanted to be seen as like the other and the beat up and just wanted their place in society we see that they have now become the jocks in this movie in a lot of ways because they become the people in power in our

13:50society and you know as I get older Steve I come to this place of like I think everything would be the same no matter who is in power because we're all human beings yeah and I think this is what and I do think there's sexism and of course against women I think it's horrible but I wonder if women all got into power where the predominant gender on our planet would men be would there be misogyny towards men and if you look at well if Latinos or black people are Asians where the predominant race or ethnicity or in our world would they be committing racism towards black people towards other people towards white people towards others so it's all about human beings and I think this movie is pression in that way because we thought nerds were these people who were beat up and bullied and we should give them respect and they deserve their place of the table and then you see what that is progressed to nowadays and you're like well shit they ended up becoming the same thing as these jocks that we see in the movie so what's the truth here you're so talking

14:53my language I mean you know you've like moved into so much of how I look at the world I mean I actually fight it was strangely chilling because I'm going okay this came out when I was a sophomore in high school so that means that Lewis and Gilbert are two or three years older than me the characters not the characters not the actors which means that the it's exactly as you said is all of the people that took over the world in the next couple of decades that's these nerds and to me it's just a perfect illustration of how humans work is it unfair the way they're treated are they treated as second-class citizens are they abused do they do they not get respect totally are they talented hardworking interesting individuals who are capable of accomplishing a whole bunch of stuff yeah and when they get the power are they going to be inclusive and just as supportive of the jocks as they were in the past no they are not I mean the stuff coming

15:54out of techbrows today that you hear is just like the stuff that was coming out of the jock fraternity they're dividing the world into the I mean they describe people Elon Musk describes people as NPCs you know I mean that is some fucked up shit that that is as fucked up as anything that the fraternity does in revenge of the nerds so I'm 100% with your point like the lesson shouldn't be oh jocks are bad and the the old time established power structure needs to be overthrown because nerds are good no it's that all people are capable of oppressing other people or dismissing other people and we shouldn't be dismissing people the and it's interesting too it's like I'm not going to say that the gay stereotypes the nerd stereotypes the Asian stereotypes that well how they deal with lambda lambda lambda and the African-American show I'm not going to say that any of that kind of feels good at this but it is all positive stereotypes and that's this

16:58weird and at that time in 1984 there was no positive gay character that you could find anywhere like Lamar for as stereotypical as he is and he is stereotyped top to bottom yeah he's actually a positive character that we're supposed to support and this is the thing for me like it most because I was a nerd is that I was a comic book kid and I you know my my when Jeff Johnson and I became friends freshman year of high school every Friday the the redwood high school newspaper the bark would come out and we would roll up our issues of the bark and we would sword fight through the halls of the high school I mean it was the month looking at bad like I'm just humiliated and how dorky it was except that was what we wanted to do we love that's why that the next step was pillow fighting and then that's when the serious martial arts started with me and Jeff it came from being you know I'm a martial arts nerd and so like I so because what this movie was saying and it's funny because it relates to my experiences with the rocky horror picture show

18:02which we've been talking about lately is oh it's okay to be a weirdo yeah weirdos are awesome and and this is my whole life has been I love weirdos I love people that are different and creative and interesting and odd those are those are my favorite people and that's what revenge of the nerds is also about is celebrating weirdos well yeah because every just about every character except for Gilbert every character in this and like Gilbert and Lewis are are interesting case studies we talk about them but like every other nerd in this film either a is unaware that they're nerd because I think uh the touchy's characters like what what is a nerd yeah but are or are proud to be who they are like worms are very much is you know like she's cool being the young nerd kid there point dexter is doesn't in any way is not like saying like wow I you know I'm not proud to be who I am boogers definitely himself throughout this whole thing oh yeah sorry Takashi is

19:05the the Asian characters name yeah he is so you know there's there's there's this in Lamar and I think you bring up a great point larry be a Scott is not gay but he played the character and he embodied this character so well because and and the way it's written it's he's not like his own buddies aren't making fun of him right for being gay they accept him they all accept each other for who they are and what's interesting about Lewis and Gilbert is Gilbert is the one who is like afraid to embrace his nerd them afraid to walk out there and be subjected to criticism and ridicule and he's the nervous nelly throughout the whole movie which is why his arc at the end when he ends up delivering the speech and he ends up really embracing who he is and and enduring physical assault and a beating to stand up there and deliver his speech I think it's really powerful because Lewis was living in this place and that's the robocarrotting character is living in this place of like well I'm not a nerd you guys are right and that's within the nerd community as well certainly I have

20:08some of that I had times have am uncomfortable thinking that I'm a part of the nerd community even though I totally am because for me I it's very ingrained that that was something that symbolized getting beat up and so I try to move away from it even though I run a whole channel that talks about nerdy shit I have a show called geek buddies forgot say but like there is still an element of me that's always a little trepidacious about it because of what happened to me when I was a young kid and so I like that you've got two opposite journeys that Lewis and Gilbert are going on where Gilbert is embracing his nerd them in a brave way and Lewis is coming to the belief that he is a nerd and accepting that he's a nerd and willing to be part of the community by the end of the movie as well and so I just I find that to be the real key to why this movie works none of them are unapologetic oh none of them are unapologetically nerds and embrace who they are and they're fighting against a system that doesn't want them to succeed that is rigged and feels like and they feel like they

21:13can't overcome the people in power who are abusing their power and using their tools in a corrupt way to subjugate and step on people who would dare to question them or threaten their power and it's coming from a place of insecurity and fear that they will that they will be drowned out by the nerds and so I just think there's something really topical and fascinating about that watching the movie this time around for our conversation a couple things the first is I mean it's so I think there are so many different ways to be in the closet and being in the closet as a nerd is something I totally did I think the Gilbert Lewis structure to speak about it in screenplay structure is really brilliant because Gilbert is the one who sees how the world sees them yes and he doesn't want to be seen that way and he's trying he's like I'm going to be I was a nerd and picked on all through high school and now I'm going to college and I don't want it to be that way anymore and so he's more of the in the closet guy and Lewis doesn't see it he's just like

22:17all of I think this is awesome therefore it's awesome why wouldn't anyone think this is awesome and what I just realized that I never occurred to me before you know I just mentioned my friendship with Jeff that started when we were 13 and met in freshman year is that I was Gilbert Jeff was Lewis Jeff I had I didn't talk to anybody about comic books unless I absolutely confirmed that I wouldn't be judged by it or start track or anything else I was in the closet Jeff was like to any he was he because he was an artist so he was always drawing comics so he was like comic books are awesome and everybody like Jeff I felt safe to be the full nerd that I was with him because he was more like Lewis and wasn't walking around a bearist by it like and of course now I'm like why the fuck should I be embarrassed like you know loving you know loving the New York giants or loving you know this or following the dead around or whatever you do that's your nerddom like

23:18that we were one of the greatest things in the world is to find the thing that you excites you and jump into it but we've been taught like that there are the cool things to jump into and there are not cool things to jump into but it is weird that all of those things that we were beat up for computers and video games and comic books and science fiction are all the biggest things in the world right now and it's actually a perfect example there's all sorts of bullying and pushing people around and I'm right and you're wrong going on now that they have the power they're not behaving any better than anybody else no it's so true it's so true and you're right like for those you're listening to us we're younger there was a time but if you were a star wars shirt to school you could get beat up yeah or a star trick shirt to school or a superhero shirt to school you would get ridiculed made fun of thrown into a locker and beat up now some of you may be listening to us going that was in my experience well good for you glad you didn't have that experience that is not my experience and I and you're right I would have to find like like my best friends from

24:24high school are still my best friends to this day Jim and Maurice and Greg they were my best friends in high school they're still my best friends now we have a text change the four of us and it's because we came together as nerds in different ways like Maurice was a black nerd who was really into politics and really into the law Jim was a sports nerd and he was into all the nerdy shit we were into we'd hang out and Greg was much more the ladies man he's much more Lewis but he was so nerdy about choir and about a comic books and about super heroes stuff so like we each had our nerd them but we operated in different ways within our structure and listen the guy you see now the people like I was I was a follower I was I was net I was an alpha in any way shape perform I followed people around I follow and it wasn't until my senior year that I really started to kind of come out of my shell and kind of embrace so I was a little bit but I've always struggled with that with that so sometimes I have an overdeveloped sense of like pushing back on

25:24people because I feel bullied because because I feel if someone's bullying me or verbally or figuratively bullying me I push back hard because I remember what it was like in high school beings and middle school being stepped on for being nerdy or having a opinion or a point of view and so I can sometimes be a little more harsh than I need to be in those moments because of that kind of stuff that's still bubbling under the surface with me because I never want to go back to those times ever again you know so but we should we should talk about the movies we're all kind of overall subject but like basically for those who don't know the plot of the movie Lewis and Gilbern are these two friends who essentially are going to college for the first time they're driven to college by their by a loses dad who is played by James Cromwell who by the way came up with the laugh that him and Lewis have in the really yeah Cromwell said later on that he realized that that laugh he was doing was his ex-wife's laugh and it's just kind of like yeah so he's the one that

26:25it's James Cromwell who came up with the laugh not Robert Carity and Robert Carity and says the Cromwell came up with it so they imitated each other and so they bring him to school and they get put in with these freshmen can I jump jump jump jump jump real quick it's just that I think this movie does such a good job from Gilbert waking up in bed or being in bed through the drive the great James Cromwell I mean the the the the supporting cast of this movie is like so amazing that drive to school by the time you get there I feel like oh I'm in I like these are weird odd people and I'm particularly the the as you said the laugh moments with the three of them when they're laughing at the dorkiest stuff and it's just oh I'm a hundred percent in with these guys and there's great character beats for example Lewis is uncomfortably close to Gilbert's mom like his Kim kissing her grab like how many kids grab their mothers are their friends mothers arms and kiss them on the cheek that was a rarity back then in the 80s but it gives you an idea that Lewis is the kind of guy who has an

27:30overwhelming sense of confidence in himself and he does these things and maybe he's got a little crush on Gilbert's mom so he'll indulge those moments and we'll see later what happens with him and Betty but like get but when we get in the car you can tell that Lewis is very loved by his dad and they have a great camaraderie and when they get to the college his dad James Cromwell has Lewis sitting next to him and he just basically has a conversation with father to son and it's very sweet yeah and and then they take off a go into the freshman dorm Lewis and Gilbert do find their place in that and then we see we get to meet Ted McGinley's character here Stan Gabel with ogre with Betty and they are the alphabetos who run this fraternity and they stupidly end up burning down their own house so now they take over the freshman dorms kick out the freshman and they go in and throw them out the windows and raid their places like violate the sanctity of their dorm rooms led by their coach

28:31John Goodman who is such a dick in this movie he's terrible he's a terrible person and they end up the nerds freshman nerds end up living in the gym which is kind of a positive in the end because that's how they kind of create a friendship and create a community because there are no walls between them so being thrown into a gym there with cots with no separations between the cots you're kind of forced to talk to people get to know people connect with people and we see them become this almost mini fraternity before they become a fraternity themselves to take on the powerful alphabet opportunity in the movie so I kind of love the way this film is structured it's subtly very smart the way this film is structured and written and how these guys come together because you don't need to do exposition scenes of them meeting each other and getting to know it's all happening within one room and I think that's really smart well and they're all I'm what it does by putting them all together is it says all of these people might be weird but all of them are really

29:36nice it's because it's more than it's more than just that they start a fraternity they become a family yes like very quickly they're just like oh you're like this I can you and they're and they're all supportive of each other's weirdness because they're not the same kind of nerds they are different kind of kinds of nerds and they and in that gym sequence is you you are slowly finding out what each of these people are and I also think look at any school particularly any large school they're going to be some weirdos and so I am sure that it's not that there was a one-to-one point dexter or Lamar or someone but you know those roles were filled at my high school in one way or another and so you kind of recognize them and what the movie is doing is going oh this person that you might have dismissed as a as a weirdo or freak or whatever when you get to know them you might kind of like them and what's interesting though with the movie and its point of view is like in a way Steve I don't know if you feel about this how you feel about this but like in a way they are

30:39the movie itself in order to uplift the nerds are othering the jocks in the movie and right in in a way the jocks are participating in their othering because they are dicks uh 10 McGinley and who is so great in this movie as Stan Gable and a lot of the actors who played the nerds have talked about through the years how much they appreciate Ted's performance in the movie and how much they enjoyed him in the movie but here's a little tidbit they cut out a subplot that Stan Gable is actually a nerd and has been hiding it from everybody in his life in order to acclimate to a society that doesn't appreciate nerds there's a scene that was caught where um he leaves the party and goes up into his room polls opens the drawer pulls out a book a science book puts on his glasses and starts reading the science book and he and someone comes banging on the door from his fraternity and he quickly takes off the glasses and puts the book in the drawer and hides it away

31:41and goes back to being the Chad Gable Stan Gable so he's almost like participating in the othering of himself which I think could have been really interesting it sounds totally interesting yeah yeah yeah by the third movie he does come out as a nerd the whole time but in the in this movie it's very clear that he's he's a jock at this point you know I know that I saw the second movie I'm guessing I saw the third movie but I don't remember it at all I mean it's this this this whole movie is it's just such a weird experience watching it because and and you know people people can be offended by what I'm about to say there are jokes in this movie that are unquestionably based on stereotypes they're offensive that I do not support but some of them made me laugh you know like some of them are it it what you know it's like all the stuff all the lamb to lamb to lamb to stuff is so comfortable because what the what the movie essentially does is it essentially makes the the thesis statement

32:41and then delivers on this thesis statement at the end of the movie that nerds are an impressed group not unlike African Americans that is that and that and that and what the lamb to lamb to fraternity does at the end is accept that and side with it's like yes you are our brothers that is what the movie says at the end is that pretty weird and does it lead to a bunch of jokes that are like I don't like the swing low sweet chariot and like there's some stuff in there where it's like oh this is very uncomfortable yeah but I also yeah go sorry no no no you go ahead I was easy but I love the fact that this is a subtle nod to the fact that other ring which is just another form of racism can exist in all communities and that we should be coming together instead of participating in the other ring of other communities we should be coming together and find the

33:42commonalities within our other ring so that we become a more powerful force to stop other ring overall and I think that's what's important about the lamb to lamb the section of the movie and I would expect Gilbert to be stupid enough as a white kid who grew up shelter with his dad to not understand that playing swing low sweet chariot is racist as fuck and I do think the movie is smart to have a Lamar come in and immediately stop that you're only black guy in the fraternity to come in and be like nope and he even gives a you and a look of like what do you expect white boys like it that's what I read in the look and it's yes because they understand that white people sometimes can try to be allies to the black community and they completely fumble it but their hearts in the right place and you don't see Lamar like chastising Gilbert for doing that it's more like he looks at you and like you know what happens with white people sometimes and so it's very innocent and I hear you about the jokes and I agree I laughed a lot of the jokes as well but because they're

34:44coming from an innocent place I don't think they're they're malicious like for example 16 candles that's fucking malicious long dark dawn to me that is fucking malicious hitting a dong every time that is malicious right that yeah yeah and it's like 16 candles is very much a similar movie for me is revenge of the nerds which is for telling the story of a young teenage girl from her perspective right this is a a ground breaking leaf feminist movie totally but long and it's so long dark dawn is like in revenge of the nerds is a very positive character he is a total stereotype it's the gong yes gong is like the yeah and then of course that movie like this one has essentially a rape that the person ends up liking you know that's a very uncomfortable thing like it's funny not to get all a high brow but what you were saying about othering bring so true to me and the and the book it's cast by Isabel Wilkerson which is what was made into origins the avid diverney

35:47film okay and it is the its whole thesis is basically it's one of the great books it is is absolutely incredible book and basically what it says is which is what I agree with which is the techniques used against African-Americans in the United States are the exact same as the techniques used against people of lower caste in India and that the Nazi Germany study Jim Crow laws when they went after the Jews is that the whole point of the book is this isn't the we we want to divide these things up by race but no anytime humans divide each other up they find ways to other or make the group lesser than and then we'll go to take away their power and this movie is a perfect example the established hierarchy sees this group as lesser than and systematically works to demean and take away their power they take away their home they don't want them to be part of the group they don't want them to have a vote they they haze and torture them in various ways it is I mean you know I

36:51think yeah it is ridiculous the way that you know Lewis just aligns himself with the African-American fraternity and there's a lot of jokes that are very uncomfortable what's happening here is the other end of the nerd group you know yeah with the same bunch of techniques yeah and just to correct myself Lewis is the one to put on the sweet swing those sweet cherry it's so but yes you're absolutely right I mean that's the thing that you see repeating over and over again in this movie they try to do that right they the the alpha betas who are threatened by these nerds who are coming on strong they keep ridiculing them stepping at the second they think they can go into their spaces they are met with harsh rebukes by the alpha betas you know whether it's destroying their party by sending in pigs and moaning them which I think is a weird closet at homosexual thing in my opinion and moaning people to show your ass to people's little weird to me but the other but there's the when the girls trick them by singing that song outside thinking

37:56they're going to show up it's all very cool you know the way that they treat these they've it's I found myself at times struggling through those moments dude because I'm just in a place now where I've seen so much of that lately of people being very cruel to people who are different than them that I just or who they see is lesser than them that I just have a really hard time watching those moments especially because they feel like they can't fight back which is something that you see in in the movie so that when they do fight back it is satisfying now it's not satisfying to drill cameras into sorority house to peak at young women being naked that is really not a good thing but them putting the what is it the icy hot or whatever it was in their jocks and them just fighting back and push back and rigging the games because the games are essentially rigged for alpha beta to win they rigged them in their own way to get to that moment where they do the talent show and win you know with Takashi and drinking or eating the swallowing the pills they keep

39:00him sober that letting them win the the tug of war and then doing the other things they do to try to essentially put themselves in a position to win so they control the Greek council by following the rules I think it's a fascinating twist that happens throughout the movie as you see the alpha beta is being pretty cruel and they know that landlanders know that they've got to play to a degree on that level in order to be able to to beat them you know but not surrender too much of their identity to do so so before we talk about the the competition and of course the the final amazing musical number I want to talk about this camera thing and and and and because it is really horrible and and and watching it this time I remembered that it existed but watching it this time the horribleness really hit me and I and I think what you brought up at the very beginning is just important to explain yeah where we were as young people in the 80s and I would say young young men because I will say that I've had this conversation with three different women recently because I had

40:04watched animal house recently and I watched it with my friend Rachel who I grew up with and then I had to end up talking about a several other women we were talking and I was talking about basically that me as a 12 13 14 year old boy would do anything to see boobs I mean I just that was like any opportunity I was going to see it and every woman that I spoke to said me too I would do any they felt the same way to see boobs to see boobs yes the women were excited to see yes yes 100% all three women now this is this was not a scientific survey I don't have any data but the three women I had this conversation with it like almost word for words said oh yeah in fact and they didn't then one told a story about their grandfather's playboy collection that was underneath the this thing in their house another one told another yeah no they were a hundred percent like yes this is what we and the thing is there is animal house where you're buying being blown now yeah because these are straight women why would they want right I'm assuming why would they no no no look I've

41:07had to look you should leave it that way then tell me yes definitely they're straight women I mean I don't I don't know that there are a hundred percent straight but yes they're straight women what are you two of them were married to men but the I mean but this is I mean look we've had a lot of conversations on various substances over the years and I have had many conversations with women on various substances over the years yeah most most most people love boobs you I wow yeah I know many gay men who love boobs like this this is I mean I look I'm just gonna say I'm in support of boobs I am like I'm just fascinated because it's first time I've ever heard this and I've never had a conversation with a woman about them looking at other women's boobs are being fascinated by looking at other women's boobs in movies the most of the women I've ever spoken about see it as the male gaze and see it as sexist and so I'm from yeah I know but I'm just saying my experience I'm surprised right that's why I'm surprised by what you're telling me look there's not a lot of

42:10straight dudes are like let's take a look at some Cox so it's not it just doesn't happen in general no not so much you know yeah well and the little abs look at that that's true but but saying that that what I have said is true for the women that I spoke to is right right that the male gaze is in a seat a thing because that was what I was gonna say next is like in animal house there's John Balushi looking at the pillow fight through the window and then in porquies there's the hole in them and that's the literally the symbol of on the poster of the movie is the hole to look into the locker room yep and I think there's a direct connection between obviously between all of these young men's willing to do anything to see a movie that had any kind of nudity and those movies saying that that thing is okay that it is that that somehow connecting the what the sneaking to your parents you know HBO channel in order to watch a late night movie and that feels naughty and okay and the sneaking into the women's locker rooms so you can see women changing and that is not okay

43:10it's not okay in any way and what they do with that camera because it isn't just there's a difference between okay John Balushi looks through the window and sees women topless women having a pillow fight that happens it's about 15 seconds long let's say yeah not just that also sees the one woman like completely take her brawl in front of it oh I have not forgotten that yeah these are formative moments in my youth but those things so let's say it's 30 seconds or 45 seconds yeah they have the cameras on permanently in their bathrooms right right in their bedrooms yeah and there's a scene where it's like yeah they're still watching it days later like 24 hours they're watching the level of violation of that is so fucking horrible yeah I mean it is absolutely it I won't say it's as bad as what happens at the end of the movie but we but we in that era most people this is what we said when we were doing like um any haul and there's a joke about sleeping with 16 year old twins let a 40 year old man makes we just that just kind of went by when that happened this

44:11kind of just went by how it's funny it's just like the animal house things in the porcupines things all of which are wrong this one much much much much much much wronger like this one is absolutely terrible and this is why I say it's kind of useful to look back and watch a film like this because this says this is where we were in the 80s we're not there now we're in a different place you know yeah but I also think the film constructs it in a way to kind of fool you into being slightly okay with this and of course in 2026 now we look back and no but I think the audience is the 1980s and maybe there are some women who will you know kind of respond to us and be like well yes why I was a teenager I saw that and I hated that thought was yeah I'm sure they were right yeah um but like you said there are clearly from some of them in you spoke to you know seeing boobs wasn't necessarily a bad thing so but like the way the film constructs it is that they've been so shitty to the nerds that this is almost seen as a come-up it's almost like they deserve this right yeah that's how it's

45:12set up in the movie right so in a way your mind can trick trick us in the 80s like most of us from what I can say just full on like most of us it didn't register because we're teens right we didn't most of us who were who watched that film back then as teenagers like it didn't register us that this was necessarily a violation quite in the way that we would learn later on at least I did right and so and the same thing with the the scene that happens later like I was like oh oh shitty got her like he's a nerd oh she she finally like sees that he's got value right but you don't see in those moments that it's it's it's a certain bad thing just like an animal house when the certain like when that he's sleeping with that 15 year old no 13 was holds 13 or yeah 13 year old and like those things you're just like oh because the the movie presents them in such an innocent way that you just go oh but in the in this sequence yes looking back on it now it is pretty terrible and horrific to think about but as I said it's also prescient for how the nerd culture sometimes

46:17approaches women in the geek spaces nowadays the nerd spaces nowadays there's a lot of objectification of these women there's a lot of judgment of women's looks within these male lead nerd communities and I mean women the the the pundits and also the actresses in their respective nerd films we see the cat we see them judging casting by the looks of these women to play certain roles oh that's not my storm she's not hot enough to play rogue she's not hot and I wanted the other girl she was hotter like there's a lot of that that goes on within the community now so that scene although terrible is also very much connected to what nerds do now towards women in different ways and we see stuff like you know a few years ago I'm sorry to bring this up but the the fapening where it absolutely was nerd to were hacking into these famous women's cell phones and finding naked pictures and videos of these famous actresses and then posting them on Reddit and 4chan and 8chan or whatever was

47:21for the people for people to look at like it was horrible violations of Jennifer Lawrence and a number of other famous women who were put out there naked their private photos and that was absolutely nerds hacking their shit and putting these women out there so it's a version of that scene that that has been happening for decades since that scene and it is on it was unknowingly pressing at the time but it is certainly something that that is horrible to look at when you watch it in the movie for sure because like you said it's been dates and and Lewis is obsessed with Betty and really focusing on Betty and so you can tell Lewis has been controlling the view of the viewing of these women to focus solely on Betty you know and so yeah it's it's a rough situation to watch that scene for sure and and just a in terms of today there is also the you know celebrity deep fake in pornography oh yeah like someone's body face and voice and showing them doing whatever

48:22you want them to do horrible violation and you said it said something really important that I failed to say so I want to just highlight it which is that I was saying that it tended to these jokes just tended to go by our society but what you pointed out that's really important is they didn't go by everyone you know like my sister watching Revenge of the Nerd she hated that movie for exactly the reasons that we're talking about right it's not you know it's like it's for for you know it was a popular film that a lot of people liked but a lot of people were offended by then and again this is why I say this is why it's important even though I know this is what bothers people most when they listen to our podcast or some group of people I don't think we can ignore the experience that people had seen this film you know and even though I think and this is what's so hard about this is like there is absolutely no question in my mind that the intention of the filmmakers and everyone working on this was to make a positive movie about embracing outsiders and having them have their heroes journey to succeed and become great and that's the intention of

49:26the film they weren't the problem is they weren't thinking you know that's the big thing it's not and this is what I think about today it's like your your intention is important it matters I really do believe that intention matters right but you also have to think it through you know it's your your intentions not everything but I think what you yes agreed you're 100% right but I think what you're we're saying earlier too is valid in the situations they thought that they were doing the right thing at the time and we have to also create space for the evolution of thought and you know the way we portray women the way we're more careful about women now the way we have intimacy coordinators on set all of that stems from decades of women being uh other and subjectified unobjectified and pushed aside or their feelings not being considered uh those kind I mean we just did our second episode of the searchers and you brought up that story that you know I also had in my notes of ward bond an older actor who would purposely stand in the window of his place naked in order to

50:34try to capture the attention of a young female actress and Vera Miles who was on her second movie for God's sakes and that's that kind of thing that women were subjected to all the time so it's been an evolution um and I I probably and the fact that a lot of the cast when they go to these accounts as I said speak about the problematic stuff and say full-throated that it did not belong and it shouldn't have been shown that way in the movie I think is a positive because that's evolution that's progression we can still appreciate the movie for what it was and call out the things that are wrong about the movie and that doesn't mean the movie shouldn't exist it's I always correlated to the human beings in our lives just because you criticize your father doesn't mean you shouldn't be your dad anymore or your mom shouldn't be your mom anymore or your brother or your sister or your friend that's kind of part of how it is you accept the thing call it out but also it also highlight the positive stuff about the movie as well which we have done uh here throughout our conversation as well and so yeah that that sequence really bothered me watching at this time where I'm like damn

51:37I really didn't register how much because I didn't see the movie in a long time and I was just like well this is gonna be fun for us to talk about but I also felt really uncomfortable watching that scene in a way I've never felt uncomfortable when I was younger when I watched this movie but also Steve within the movie itself it's also prescient that the nerds other the female nerds because they want to go with the hotter women right and so in a way what I was bringing up just a few minutes ago about how nerds nowadays other actresses do othering of actresses because they don't think they're hot enough to play these these superheroes or superheroes in their respective nerdy franchises there's a microcosm of that in the movie with how booger and others feel about was it the omega mousi? Yeah the omega mousi essentially othering them because they're somehow not attractive enough for these ugly nerds and I'm going to say that there are almost none of them are attractive other than maybe Anthony Edwards in my opinion they think they deserve better looking women like the pies

52:42instead of these omega mousi and I find that to be a kind of subtle othering in the movie as well it's played for laughs and it works out because the omega mousi saved them but it's it is an othering that's going on even by those nerds in the movie while they're trying to fight back from being other themselves you know well it's like the the myth that a a group that is oppressed would never oppress another group yeah or that one race that experiences racism would never have racism for another group and it's like no that because and it because you used to use establish a world that's determined by status yeah well the the nerds want to be at a higher level status so they look at the omega mousi and go like well they're not going to get us to the higher level status what I do like that the movie does is first of all we like the omega mousi I mean I'm a bit the the there is absolutely the visual jokes of these are not attractive women that is that is the visual joke there to tall they're in the wrong clothes they're the wrong ethnicity they're the wrong weight

53:42and so that is a hundred percent jokes at the expense of them yes but like the nerds they do win us over and in particular I don't know her name but but Gilbert's girlfriend yeah Judy she's a great relationship it's a great relationship and they never try they don't do the thing in breakfast club where they give allys sheety a makeover they don't go like you're gonna be happy if you're gonna become beautiful they're like no you're a nerd I like you for who you are yeah and I think that's great about it because their relationship Gilbert and and Judy it's like it's a really sweet relationship in this movie because Lewis's pursuit of Betty is super creepy and uncomfortable throughout the whole movie when you look at it now but Gilbert is you know legitimately that relationship with Judy is very sweet and touching and they have a great connection he helps her but she's like very supportive of who he is you know and he's not trying to run away from who he is he's afraid to be who he is because of what abuse he might endure and her running to him when he delivers

54:48that speech at the end I think is a really powerful moment in the movie as well because she's accepted it and by the way Jamie Gertz Joan Qsac and Sarah Jessica Parker all addition for that role of Judy and Michelle Myrna got it so kind of you beat out some pretty pretty strong heavyweights who would go on to do other things as well so you know I think she's damn good in the movie it's interesting because Joan Qsac has played so many nerds oh yeah you know and I actually think they went the right way because what's there's Judy there's a sweetness and a very down to earthness about her yeah that I think you might not have gone with the others I agree I agree well so should we let's deal with that moment there in the fun house you know let's talk about it so yes let's just set it up for people who maybe have not seen the movie and are just enjoying our conversation essentially the movie leads to this festival at the end where the Greeks are battling each other in a set set of games kind of like a mini Olympics but it's for college stuff

55:52and there is a kissing booth scene where Betty who is the girl that Lewis has a thing for is doing kissing and then Lewis shows up with a bunch of tickets Betty won't kiss him but Stan Gable is there he's kind of dressed up in the same outfit that Lewis is dressed up as and Betty goes off into this tent after she's been rejected by Stan Gable because she wants to have sex she's hot from kissing a lot of people so she wants to have sex with Stan but Stan's like not feeling it and he's focused on other things and he kind of pushes Betty away well Betty walks off her into this tent into this fun house area and Lewis sees this mask and this hat that Stan Gable was wearing and had taken off and so he puts it on since his costume got looks like Stan walks into this fun house and doesn't say a word Betty thinks he's taking the lead and they're gonna have sex and when she tries to take the mask off he doesn't let her and so she's into it as a kinky thing and they end up having sex and while she's in post-coido place he reveals

56:57that he is Lewis and she's a little shocked but she's strangely very accepting of the whole situation Steve and by the end of the movie claims that she's in love with a nerd so it's problematic because he had sex with her by tricking her into thinking he was someone else so yes go ahead and gets rewarded for it and gets told that that was really glad you did it is literally the exact same it's not exactly the same situation but the end of 16 candles is this beautiful gorgeous prom queen is drunk and her boyfriend offers farmer Ted Anthony Michael Hall the keys to his roles Royce and basically says to him do whatever you want with her she's so drunk she won't know the difference and then he does have sex with her in the back of the roles Royce while she is to some degree unconscious and then she wakes up the next morning with a vague memory of it and says that she liked it and it was kind of nice so this is it is so fucked up and what it is I think because

58:02I've been thinking a lot about it is this is a iconic fucked up fantasy of a nerd who cannot get a girl because what it does is it says I am not able no woman will pay attention to me by conventional means yeah therefore only through trickery or only through circumstances with my identity concealed could I possibly get laid but if I did this horrible awful underhanded thing she will like it that is so fucking horrible and and I see echoes of it and there's a lot of you know and I was just reading an article of the number the amount of in current pornography choking calling women sluts demeaning women like there's a huge movement of in this particular environment of men taking charge of women and pushing them around in ways in sexual ways and it's like I

59:04too you know we're talking at the beginning about these nerds in this movie are ascendant in our society now and have tremendous power and there's for some of them and in cells and things like that includes a real hatred and disdain of women and this scene is just like a it's like a beautiful wrapped up in a boat here is a wonderful way to disrespect women and guess what at the end they will like it it is so horrible I can't even I can no longer speak about it it's so oh my god yeah it's a it's certainly a troubling situation and you know again they portray it as an innocent thing because he's just trying to get her and you see how she crueltiest to him at multiple times throughout the movie so in a way the movie again is trying to trick you that what he does here is his way of like getting her to finally see him yeah because she even says what's

1:00:05your name right she's never asked him his name through the whole movie and never bothered to learn his name so she's dismissed him through the whole movie but in that scene she says what your name is this Lewis and so it's a way it's a really kind of fucked up way of showing that she was arrogant and conceited and dismissive of him and he took this means in order to show her that he does care about her it can be a good partner to her and maybe loves her and she knows she asks like how would you get so good he's like well sports do is the only thing about sports all the time nerds always think about women and sex and so I don't know if that's 100% true maybe but it's certainly not 100% true but that joke totally worked for me in 1984 because I was the nerd who was always thinking about sex so I was like yes this is 100% true yeah so you know so and you're like you said it's portrayed in a pot or it's he gets rewarded for it because she does leave Chad to be with him and by the way Julia Montgomery who plays

1:01:10Betty has said you know and as I said numerous times and conventions that is the scene is problematic however she has returned for all four installments of revenge of the nerds to play Robert Caratine's wife so this relationship has progressed in the in the world of the franchise of revenge of the nerds to be the one strong relationship throughout the the nerddom of revenge of the nerds in the franchise it's not excusing that scene of course but they do respect the fact that these two uh carriers a healthy relationship through four installments or three install through three subsequent installments in the movie because Anthony Edwards has never come back even to do a cameo I don't I think I think there's cameo in the second one at the beginning but that's it but he's never come back to uh play this character again but even in the fourth movie Bougare comes back Lewis and Betty come back the actors who play these characters Lamar comes back Takashi comes back James Cromwell is in the fourth revenge of the nerds movie

1:02:14Donald Gibb comes back and Bernie Casey comes back as you and Jefferson so clearly for all the problematic issues of the first movie there have been three other installments that have come afterwards and the actors who've played these characters have enjoyed the characters so much that they've come back to reprise them multiple times and that's not something Anthony oh I know so Tim McGinley came back and so it's not something that Anthony Edwards has ever done and some of the other actors have ever done but the fact that a majority of them will come back I think speaks volumes of the fact they think this is a franchise that does speak about um you know uh pushing back against the othering of nerds uh throughout their uh installments it might very well be that and they might very well feel that way but I also look at some of these actors I'm like a gig is a gig like it's not like they're making a ton of money all the time for some of them they are I think Tim McGinley's doing fine um I just want James Cromwell's doing fine James Cromwell's definitely doing fine yeah I would like to just highlight that I believe that Curtis Armstrong is a treasure of the 80s between rescue business yeah better off dead revenge of the nerds and then moon lighting

1:03:20yeah and he and he plays different he plays different sort of versions of his cramagingly kind of angry sort of on the character rebel yeah rebel yeah but he's so great I mean I've watched risk of business which is it recently which is another one I'd be happy to do on a one take although we're gonna get a lot of 80s if we keep it in this direction but yeah yeah yeah Curtis Armstrong's so good in risky business and booger is just a perfectly defined supporting character you know yeah yeah yeah yeah because he's the guy that's like uh pushing the but he's the guy is willing to kind of be more confrontational in moments and yes he has occasional racist jokes when he's like you know to Takashi what the fuck's a fresh you know there are moments where he's kind of like tone deaf in his racism with Takashi but they do become friends like and they work together and stuff but when he's up in the council he's the one that says straight up to to Tamaginley like this is bullshit what's happening so he's the much more abrasive nerd

1:04:22who's willing to get in the faces and even when they come by after they fix the house up which is a great little 80s montage thing he's the one that under his breath says that stuff about standgate he was looking at he thought he was looking at his mom's old douche but that's back in Minnesota or something so like he's willing to be more of the abrasive aggressive pushback nerd he's more of the fighter and I agree with you he's great uh in the movie and he didn't want to do the movie he he auditioned for one of the two leads and then they had him read for booger and he was like I'm not going to do this I'm not going to pick my nose on Kamenama how much they pay me but they clearly paid him a lot because a lot of the actors say they did this movie because they were paid a good amount of money to do the movie and we're willing to do and we're early on in their careers a lot of them yeah to establish themselves yeah one last thing I think is also fascinating how old like Robert Caratting is is 29 I think when he does this movie Anthony Airwitz is 21 the young kid Andrew

1:05:24because these uh worms are for all the stuff we talked about Steve they were very protective of him the the director and the other actors he was he didn't he didn't witness any of the unsavory stuff that you see in the movie he wasn't part of it he didn't see any of that until he actually saw the movie at the premiere and he was surprised at how much they uh kind of shielded him from so I think that's a positive when you look at how they treat him in the film but uh but I will say to wrap up like oh and then a Donald Gibb we should well how could we not give love to ogre I mean ogre understand yeah Donald Gibb is fantastic and this character and sadly the late great Donald Gibb who by the way passed away him and Robert Caratting passed away within three months of each other which I think is really kind of sad and poetic in a way so um but ogre of course throughout the progression of her nerds becomes a nerd himself he is a nerd and I think it's one of the great twists that happen in the second movie but he is uh so such a standout as much as uh booger is he's such a standout for that side of the alpha betas as well so you know what I think it is about this movie is and this is definitely take it or leave it is that yeah this movie is based

1:06:29on stereotypes it's based on caricatures and it's not just caricatures of all the various nerds the jocks in particular ogre are caricatures. Tehemaginli is the caricature popular quarterback guy you know like that's what they are the sorority sisters of the caricatures and it's so a battle between cardboard cut out caricatures fighting against each other and going into all of these tropes that is what revenge of the nerds is yeah 100% and I hear you on the lambdas and you and Jefferson but I do think Bernie Casey is no he's no perfect with every one of these interactions and I tell you when the brother show up at the end to essentially intimidate the alpha betas do not attack the nerds I think that is a powerful moment that still works for me and I love that because it's people defending people who are being being bullied against the bullies and I don't think they're used as a stereotype and maybe some of our black listeners will correct me on this but for me I see them as coming in as as you said earlier Steve

1:07:32connecting to the struggle and so they're willing to come in and stand there and defend their fellow brothers in othering against the overtly they all white alpha betas in that moment and I think that's a powerful moment as well in the movie that I that I think works for me and maybe if you feel differently but I like that moment I kind of still even watching it again I still quietly cheered inside like fuck yeah man get into shit so I think the moment filmically totally works yes I totally enjoy it but I think it's also a perfect example of this weird thing of you can have a positive stereotype saying a positive thing that is still a stereotype and still because what because part of what is making that moment work is essentially the stereotype of white people are secretly scared of all black people I mean that is there's that feeling when these big African-American men walk in and you cut to the reaction shots of particularly the football team

1:08:33who are big physical people and they are like oh we thought we were tough but we were we're you know it's the fear of black skin which is which is you know at the heart of systemic racism is the idea that there's something scary and so like this is what this is why I wanted to talk about this movie why I think it's a good idea the movie is just a complete mix of lovely positive messages terrible stereotypes that are repeated and made fun of over and over again even if some of them are positive ones and these heinous acts of sexual violence that are inexcusable in any way I mean that is what revenge of the nerds is it is a mix of mismatch of all that stuff which means it's a perfect 1980s film because it's it's heart is in the right place but it's methods sometimes can be questioned yes as the man who once told Elliottness don't approve of your methods that's what you see in the untouchables that's what you see here overall but all right well that's

1:09:35our that's our episode on on revenge on the nerds here in 1984's revenge on the nerds from director Jeff canoe hope you all enjoyed our conversation on this this episode of one take and we want to hear from you what do you think what do you think about revenge of those have you never seen it will this inspire you to go see it let us know your comments does this offend you are do you have issues with it um do you feel some of these things are indefensible or what are your feelings about the movie overall let us know all of that there by tweeting at us let us know the Facebook group or responding when we post this on patreon all right for my partner to do more as my fellow nerds do more as i am nerd john roca and we will talk to you next time with another brand new episode of one take here from the cinephiles