Rex Heuermann Gilgo Beach Documentary: Full Psychological Breakdown

This is Hidden Killers Live with Tony Ruski and Robin Dree.

The Gilgoboch killer, that's who we are talking about today, and the ecosystem around him,

because it goes far deeper than just Rex Hiramann himself.

The psychology of Asa Elrup is what we're going to be starting with.

The ex-wife of Rex Hiramann, Asa, sat across from the man.

She'd been married to for nearly three decades and asked him how many women did you do this to?

He said eight, no hesitation.

He's been charged for seven, but he said eight.

She walked out of that room and still said she believes that he loved her.

The New Peacock documentary, well, part four is new.

The other three parts have been there for quite some time.

Lade bears something most people can't wrap their heads around.

A woman whose entire adult life was built around a man was killing women in their basement.

What makes someone hold on even after the truth comes out of his own mouth?

That's a question that I think a lot of us are asking.

Part four of the Gilgoboch killer, House of Secrets, is now available on Peacock.

This is part four to the Fittyset G unit one that was done about, I think it was two years ago now.

We did a deep dive on that at the time when it came out and it was fascinating.

Then it's even more fascinating now as part four dives deep into Asa Elrup.

The ex-wife now believing, now getting the confession straight up from Rex and still stay in tight.

Stay in tight to her man, which is an interesting observation on all this.

Joining us to break all this down, joining myself, of course, Robin Drake,

retired FBI Special Agency for the Counterintelligence Behavioral Analysis Program.

As always, and it's Shavon Scott, psychotherapist and author who is with us on Wednesdays,

who's author of this book, Nightbird, who just got some great awards for it in Las Vegas.

Well learned, well-deserved person for today.

Yes, available wherever you get books, go and check that out.

My goodness, we got a lot to get into here today on this.

Let's start Shavon with some of focusing on Asa in this.

Asa was adopted into an American family.

She says she never felt wanted as a child was assaulted at 16 and then attempted to take her own life

before she ever met Rex and then Rex.

This man shows up and as a knight in shining Arbor, I believe,

as one of the ways that she described him, taken care of everything.

How much of what people call not knowing is really a woman who's survival instincts told her

not to look too close at the one person who made her feel safe?

Yeah, truth can be very scary for some people and not everyone is made for honesty.

I had a sense of her that the bit of glimpses into her life trauma that she gave us, that there's more.

And who knows what other psychological factors, you'd have to really get to know her in depth

to get a good sense of everything that she'd gone through in life.

But she was a broken person when she met him and he swooped in as a rescuer.

And he had an extreme amount of control over her, her perception of reality.

And this is, this is, I think, a big piece that has been the struggle for her is who is she without Rex?

And what is reality?

Yeah, which brings me to this question, Shavan.

You know, I was happy to see that she's working with a therapist that I had no idea.

She was that close like hand in hand.

And also the fact that they gave her permission to share so much openly on camera, which was beneficial to us.

I hope it was beneficial to us on this.

But I'm curious, I'm curious about her goal and what your goal would be with Asa.

And where you think she might be able to go because she seems so doggedly locked in.

It seems like the way she sees Rex,

she not only doesn't want to.

I think she's incapable at this point of seeing him other than the night in shining armor.

Do you think that as a therapist, she's going to try to move her through that to accept what the truth is of what he is?

Or she just got to try to help her cope with what she wants to accept?

My sense is that, you know, and, and of course we didn't get any, you know, verbatim

what the therapy sessions are like or anything like that.

My sense is that it was good therapist.

She was trying to work with all the components of the family and gradually help Asa see reality.

But that's going to be slow work because for her to really come to a place of acknowledging fully acknowledging the horror movie that she has been living in,

could just shatter her identity all together and throw her into a state of being a non-functional person.

And I think the therapist will keep working with her.

It's going to be long-term work and it's something that will probably go on for the rest of her life.

And who knows how much flexibility she has.

Yeah, I was really glad that she did have a therapist that she was.

Yeah, and totally vested in her.

I mean, I was really pleasantly happy and surprised for the family that they did have someone that was that seemingly that close,

like almost like living with them for most of this, even from, you know, going to the hearings and everything like that.

So, and they also can't come cheap, obviously.

But no, I'm glad for that aspect of it because man, she was a lot more messed up than I thought she was.

Yes, I agree.

We knew she would have some fragilities, but I was kind of surprised at how fragile she really is.

Yeah.

Is Assad more in touch with reality than the rest of us are on this?

I mean, this is someone, I mean, she, I mean, I'm really kind of amazed how vocal she has been about this and how she is,

is, you know, displaying her choices and her seemingly desire to want to get to know the other racks.

We're not in her situation.

Very few people in this world ever will be or are, thank God.

But if you were to be in that sort of situation, can you fault her that she wants to try and understand more about the person

that she spent her entire adult life with and had children with?

I mean, it granted he's a monster, he's a horrible person.

And I think the two can coexist.

I think she can recognize that this is a horrible, monstrous human being over here who's done some really bad things.

But she can also recognize that he was not that to her.

And so many of us just want to look at her and go, tell him to go to hell, ignore him, don't feed the machine, don't feed his madness.

I mean, I totally get that.

But that's not our choice to make.

This is her life.

This is, it's not for me to say, well, you have no right to try and square this up more in your mind

with the man that you spent all this time when and apparently had no idea this was going on.

Actually, it kind of is her right to do that.

And maybe that is the right path to go down.

I don't know. I mean, Shivan, is this, is there a world where it is not a horrible path?

I mean, for healing for her, not for the dynamics and the optics of all of us out here judging.

But for her own healing to take that ride, to take that road and go meet with Rex to whatever boundary

she wants to set up, but to learn who that man is.

And I don't know what the end goal is if it's to be continuing that relationship when she's

gotten whatever she thinks she's going to get out of him in terms of information,

or if it's just to go down that road, pick up that book and close it when she feels that it's

complete. I don't know that she would know when to close that book when it's complete.

What are your thoughts on that?

I think, I think you put that really well.

We've all got a path.

I mean, life is going to traumatize everybody in some way, hopefully not this way.

But we've all got to figure out what's our path through it.

What are we going to do to survive?

And if I were working with her, I would want to honor the process that she's on.

But I have to admit, on a gut level, it's very unsettling.

It is.

Listening to their warm phone calls where he has this weird thing of, hello, dear.

And it makes your skin crawl.

I have seen many, many women who have been married to someone far less cruel and

aberrant, and maybe they commit a crime of some kind.

And the wives are done.

They're just done.

This is not who I thought he was, and I'm never talking to him again.

I'm divorcing him.

And it's, I always feel better, you know, when people go that direction,

but these are people who are probably have a stronger personality,

who can go on and build life apart from that person.

And I personally feel better when I see that happen.

You know, they change their name, they maybe move across the country,

and they say, I am erasing that, you know.

But yeah, she does seem to still be in this early phase of trying to make sense of it,

trying to put the truth together.

But the thing that really, the piece that I don't think she has fully integrated yet,

if at all, is that he was a sadist, was a sadist, and just about the worst kind of sadist

that we can imagine, and the way he tortured his victims, I mean,

I cannot wrap my head around having any kind of a bond with a sadist.

And so I think that the ultimate goal for her would be able to fully recognize that,

and slide out of the denial and be able to separate herself from him.

I mean, I think that would be a really good thing.

Yeah, that was probably, you know, to keep building on that.

The most shocking thing I heard throughout that entire episode was when she said,

I want to get to know that man.

And I'm like, good God.

But it also sparked another question in my mind with it that I'm curious about Shavon,

and that is he's kind of insinuated and presented a bifurcation of who he is.

And she's accepted it and also built it in.

That's why she said she wants to get to know that man, that she doesn't know,

because I know him as a loving family man.

She kept using a word family man.

Is it actually possible for a psychopath to have two sides, or are they just psychopath that

know how to play the game with who they're engaging?

Because to me, I thought when you actually have high-level psychopathy,

you're just putting on a show 24 or 7.

Is that the way it actually is, or is it actually a chance that there is actually two sides to him?

I agree with you completely.

I think a good psychopath can play two roles.

They can play the loving father.

They may not play it very well, but they try.

Some of them are better at it than others.

But the degree of obsession that we have seen with him, the way he kept those detailed notes

and did his planning and planned everything when she was going to be out of town,

I mean, the planning showed an obsessive person.

This is a person who was thinking about it all the time.

Oh yeah.

And loving every minute of it.

Loving every minute of it, this was his addiction and stuff.

His play time.

Yeah, yeah.

And think about the fact that he gave himself a marriage as someone with zero guardrails.

The only guardrail he had made it part of his fun fantasy was we can only play

when I get them out of town.

And then I have three whole days.

Oh my god.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And in the room in the basement that we've learned was the kill room.

That makes it the horror story even worse than I think most of us could even have imagined.

So I always wondered like, did that actually anything go on in the house?

Well, it turns out it did.

All of it.

Or at least those parts of it.

Yeah.

Maybe more.

And I think, I mean, the part that so many are holding on to in this documentary,

and I'm sorry if I'm spoiling it for anyone, but

Asa and I don't believe she still is.

I could be wrong, but for what's portrayed in the documentary,

she's sleeping in the kill room.

She doesn't have to be sleeping in the kill room.

Like the basement, if you watch the doc, the original one, there's four episodes.

The first three were recorded about a year or two ago.

And the basement was still in kind of disarray.

Well, they've gotten that redone.

It's they got a bunch of, you know, ship lap up and it looks different.

It looks like we did it.

It looks like Joanna Gaines came in and then they re-ordered it.

So it's HTV with more horters.

And it looks different than it used to, but Asa just really explained

why she decided to stop sleeping in the bedroom that she was sleeping in.

But she made a new bedroom in Rex's old childhood bedroom,

which was the kill room.

And she sleeps down there.

And she talks about feeling a kind of a connection there.

And that it's, I don't want to put words in her mouth,

but like, I don't know if they're a pewdie.

What the hell?

I guess that's my, that's what I'm getting to is what the hell.

Because that's the weirdest thing I've ever seen.

You're going and sleeping in the room that your husband killed all these women in.

And you're filling it with beanie babies.

And it looks like childhood, like children's toys.

When you saw that, when you saw that horror show and that moment,

what the hell was going through your mind?

I frankly was shocked.

And that's one of the strangest things that I have ever seen.

And again, I try not to go into it with a judgmental attitude,

because that's not my job.

My job is, as you're saying, to understand and to say what's going on.

And I had a few speculations.

One was that is this part of her trying to get over the denial.

Because she said, I think about the victims when I'm down here at night.

And so is that her way of trying to integrate the stories of the women that were killed maybe?

But I don't think you'd be sleeping very well if that's what you were doing down there.

So also, was it an attempt to reclaim power?

To say, this is my home.

He's not going to win here.

Sometimes people do that if there's something bad that happens in their home.

They say, well, I'm not leaving my home.

But the other thing that may be the most likely in my mind

was, is this a form of her trauma bonding?

That this was his childhood bedroom, clearly part of his ritual world.

And is there, and perhaps this is not conscious on her part at all,

a way to try to stay close to him, to the him that she thinks is the good him.

But yeah, all the stuffed animals and child things,

yeah, I'd love to sit with her and have a more in-depth talk about what all is this about?

And how did you come to a decision to do that?

Go ahead, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt your chiffon.

No, that's fine. I was just going to say that's the weirdest thing about all this.

Yeah, and when I'm curious about this aspect of it too,

when she said to be closer to the victims, I wasn't quite getting the closest that she felt

because I didn't quite feel or see the emotional connection there of what happened to those

victims. So I'm curious from your point of view, what do you think she actually thinks and feels

about those victims knowing that her husband did those things to those victims? Is she able to

fully embrace that, or is she just saying that? Again, I'm not negating where she's at on her

path on this. I'm just kind of curious where on that path she's actually at.

Right, because I can understand completely the need to put the puzzle pieces together,

I think that would be part of healing for her, wanting to learn who the victims were.

But I would want to learn who were they when they were alive, not sit in the room where they

were tortured. And a lot of times we honor victims of crimes. What do we do? We may tear down the

murder house. That's what they did. Jeffrey Dahmer's place was torn down. And put a park in and do

something to dedicate it to the victims and honor the victims. And you can go there and meditate if

you want something that focuses on their lives, not on the room where they were tortured.

Yeah, and the thing is it's not her cross to bear. She didn't do these things. So as long as she

didn't do these things, she wasn't involved in these things, it's not hers to bear. I mean,

indirectly, you know, is it certainly a part of her life? Yeah, but it's not what she didn't do

these sort of things. I thought it interesting something that she said in that last like five

minutes segment where they leave you going, oh, God, this is a horror movie, even more than you

thought it was going to be, where she said there will be no closure for anyone. I found that

interesting. And I don't know if it's just kind of a figurative speech because I hate the work

closure too. We're like, oh, no, you have some closure. Like nobody ever gets caught. And I

get it. Like, there really isn't. And the big picture, these people are dead. There's no fixing

this. But I don't know. I didn't know what's it. If I'm leaning too much off of that statement

or not, or if it was just her rattling off a bunch of stuff and then they caught it on camera

and she's there's no closure for anyone because they're clearly hasn't really been for her.

And there probably never will be. What did you, what did you, what do you think she means by

that when she says there'll be no closure for anyone? Yeah, there were certain times in the

documentary where I felt like she was sort of reciting lines and reciting lines that she's been

told. And as you and I have said so many times, closure is really a myth. You know, we can,

we can grow through things, but we always carry them with us. It's never like it didn't happen.

So is it another way of her brain trying to protect herself that she really can't

get any further along than she is? I'm not sure. It's interesting. I mean, she's got a lifetime

of reps and fantasy. I mean, she really does. I mean, she fantasized about him from day one,

and he selected her because of her ability to fantasize this idealic world that allowed him to do

what he wanted to do. And so her reps that she has to overcome to let go of any fantasy and see

reality for what it is is a lot. I'm curious, Siobhan. So out of everything that you saw in that

from your position, from your expertise, what was the most shocking thing that you saw about

Acid during that special? The most shocking thing was the sleeping in the room that

because to me, that would be a disconnect from the torture that went on there. And when she thinks

about these women is her mind going back to that, which I think at some degree, you have to let

your mind go there because you have to accept in order to move, move forward. You have to accept

that this is a sadist. But that was shocking that she would choose to put herself through that

on a nightly basis because we want to see people become more grounded in a realistic perception

of the world. But we want to see them start to rebuild their own lives. Who are they? And what

kinds of things can she do to develop herself that are not centered around this misperception of

the past? Because he really did control her perception of reality. And it would be lovely. I hope

in the future, this has not still been really that long, 33 months is relatively recent.

And so I hope in the future that she can move beyond the need to sleep there, the need to have

phone calls with him, not needing to accept that because her affect still changes when he's on the

phone. Hello, dear. And you see that attachment that she still has. And it would be wonderful to see

her say, I do not need to be attached to a sadist and develop her own life. Well, when we follow

to that, Shavon, I'll put you on a spot as a therapist on this one as we always do anyway.

If you were her therapist and you heard her now tell you, yeah, I'm sleeping down in the bedroom

after remodeled it. What would be your first question to her? What would be the first thing you'd say?

I'm just curious. If I can put you on a spot. No, you can always put me on the spot. I don't know

that I'll be cogent in it because it would it would probably be something that would flow out of

the conversation of how are you managing? What is soothing to you? What are you perceiving now?

But I tend to when when people are open to my advice, I tend to lean toward cutting ties with

toxic people and understanding what a trauma bond is. And let's move out of the trauma bond,

not do things that are going to reinforce the trauma bond. So I would I would be you know,

I can't say grabbing her and shaking her by the shoulders, but that might have been my inclination,

but but trying to redirect in a way away from that. Oh, you're so good. Thank you.

Your thoughts in the comments section on Substack and YouTube as we continue the conversation.

And we're going to get into Victoria, the daughter, and also Rex as we continue this conversation.

So press subscribe so you don't miss any of that. Substack YouTube is where you can make your

comments. Victoria Heuriman was 13 years old the last time her father killed. She grew up playing

video games 10 feet from the room where women were allegedly murdered and dismembered. I guess

it's not allegedly anymore. When Rex confessed to her privately, she asked him to she asked him a

question that no child really should ever have to have to ask a parent and got an answer that

will follow her for the rest of her life. The documentary captured a young woman trying to hold

two truths that shouldn't be able to exist in the same person. Shavon Scott is with myself and

Robin Drake as we continue to break down chapter four here in the the new Gilgo beach doc or the

fourth part of the Gilgo beach doc, the Gilgo beach killer, how some secrets available on

peacock right now. Victoria said something in the documentary that really hit hard. She said

nobody really thinks about the daughter of this serial killer. She's dealing with depression,

anger, her self-worth is destroyed. She's questioning why she's even here. What is the actual

psychological weight of finding out your identities now permanently tied to a parent's

crimes? We've seen this in other cases. We've seen it with BTK and many others and everyone handles

it a little bit differently. Some use it as a way to outreach and help other victims of trauma

and abuse. Some fall into addiction and depression and bad things. What's your take on on Victoria

and how she's processing all this? My heart really went out to her. I mean, she is I think

a well-meaning person and it's just got to shatter your identity to know that the person that

raised you that you had a certain belief about is a monster and her father is a monster.

So I would expect the depression. I would expect the the shattered self who am I? And again,

she's going to have to recreate her identity and I saw a lot of struggling with that. One of the

things that she said that really concerned me and this would be a place I would want to speak

with her more about was the the I forgive him when they said you forgive him and she said yes

because I don't want to carry the burden of whatever however she put it that it would be a burden

to her not to forgive him. That really struck me as quick forgiveness and that can be a trauma

response because again, we're talking about sadism. Personally, I don't forgive sadists, you know,

wouldn't matter who it was. The only people that want you to are those nutters from IBLP.

The umbrellas, yes. Yeah, you know, I mean, yeah, I mean, there's evil. This guy was pure evil. He

got pure enjoyment out of torturing others. He doesn't deserve forgiveness and you're not a bad

person for not forgiving him. What kind of what kind of potholes or red flags you think

others should be looking out for from her as she's moving through her recovery process that

could be stumbling blocks for her like what's the first one or two you think will be

hard for her to move through that might pop up that others can notice.

Well, I think the depression is she's going to need a lot of help with that and looking through

the secondary trauma because she is a victim too in this and all the things that she's had

to listen to and learn that's going to cause secondary PTSD for her and that includes

reliving. The episodes worried about how other people perceive her all the time and it's going

to affect the trajectory of her life. Now, that doesn't mean it has to run her life, but it's

going to be a harder life than it would have been and I loved earlier in the episode where she was

visited by Carrie Rossum. Am I getting her name right? Yeah. Yeah. Who has really, really worked

on her own healing and now helps other people and I think that's a great way to go is take

what's happened to you heal what you can from your trauma and then help other survivors. I

I think that would be a wonderful way to go, but Victoria has got to just be devastated and this

is fairly early into the whole thing, but yeah, forgiving him this this cultural myth about oh,

well, if I don't forgive then I'm carrying the burden. You know, I call BS on that. I called

Cutters Out Man 1000%. I mean, the two of them, Victoria and Asa seem to have and this was

evident in the first part of the doc, the first three parts that was years ago. Victoria was very

much on the page early on that yeah, he probably did this. Now it's a cold hard truth, so it hits

even harder. Asa was not on that page. She now clearly is, but still the dynamic of still wanting

to be close to him, the dynamic really hasn't changed all that much in terms of the desire of either

them wanting to have some sort of relationship with Rex, how much and healing obviously is a very

personal journey for every person here, whether it's daughter, mother, but sometimes helping each

other, having gone through a shared experience trauma bonded, how much do Victoria and Asa need

each other on their on their healing journey, if you will, especially if both of them are viewing

Rex in very different lights. Do they not need each other for it would it be better if they

if they did this journey separately rather than sharing notes. I think I think the second is true

that Victoria is I think a healthier person than Asa, which is why she was open to the possibility

from the beginning that this could be true. And Asa is still very much of an enmeshed emotional

relationship with Rex. And so having them do their work separately, I think there was a place to do

it together as a family and maybe that would happen every so often where they get together with

Asa therapist and talk about that. But Victoria, I think, will probably be more able to rapidly

move forward and develop her own identity. She's at the phase of life. We talk about individuation,

which is developing, you know, who you are from apart from who your parents are. And I think she

has the capacity to go on and have a good life. And so having more separation from Asa's reality

is probably good. Yes, my curiosity on that one just because I just think exactly the same thing

Tony was and that is can she keep healing at any rate if she's still living in that house where

her mom is living in the bedroom where the horrendous things happened or does she need to disconnect

from her mother as well? Or can she disconnect from Rex but still maintain connection with her

mother who doesn't seem to be able to move on? Yeah, I would say definitely getting out of that house.

I would like to see that house torn down. And, you know, I mean, I can't imagine being the

neighbors. Can you imagine being the construction guys that went into work on that basement? I mean,

you know, that that was the first place my went. Would I want to be in there

removing that dry wall and putting in a new ceiling? It's like this is this is just it's a place

that needs to go. And I think the more separation Victoria can have it doesn't mean never speaking

to her mother again, but just separating their emotional journey because this is they're in

very different place. I'd imagine the physical proximity of it also has a massive impact also.

I mean, you're reminded every single day of what your father did right there where you played

your computer games and also the creepiness of it too. It's where he grew up. It's the same bedroom.

I mean, the it's mind bending to really think about what Victoria the fact that she is having

these healthy responses at all is actually pretty remarkable because that's a lot because you have

a mother that is obviously trauma bonded to him and then a father who just was putting on a show

her entire life. I mean, just and she said how bone question it was that's her daddy, you know,

in her mind, you know, the protector of her of everything in her life and to come to find out

because she even said, were you think did you think of me when you're doing these things to these

girls? Yeah, and he did not. And that room, the room holds incredible symbolism and power because

the room was where he was enacting his fantasies as a child because I think these I think he said

he started having these fantasies late teens. It's usually earlier than that. And so the room was

part of the ritual. So, you know, if a place can be evil, that would be an evil place.

Does it does it make it better for Victoria that is answer to the question of do you what are

you thinking of? Are you thinking of me when you're doing this? Are you thinking of now? And I

know she's meaning it not necessarily in the way of like, are you killing your and thinking of me?

It's are you considering these people in your life and the consequences to these actions if

you were to be caught? And his answer is resounding no. What does that mean to Victoria? Is it

is it better that his answer is no and that he's not remotely considering this? And he's completely

splitting his personality off and he's living in a different world and a different reality that's

all his or is it better if he were to say, I consider that but I thought, you know, I got a good

track record and I know I can hide this. I mean, I don't know. I don't know. There's any good answer

to that question. But I mean, what's your thoughts? Yeah, probably no good answer, but I think it

was a good question for her because that's one of the cruel aspects of this, which again we can

say, you know, we don't have to interview him to say psychopath here and no empathy for his wife

or for his kids, no empathy for Victoria. And that was probably helpful for her to hear. No, I was

not thinking about you. Yeah, I mean, I'd be kind of like, oh, yeah. And I was thinking about what

we go to the Chuck E. Cheese after, you know, that would be even more horrifying. One of the things

that she talked about in there, and I think this is this is applicable to almost anyone who's

had some sort of childhood trauma that is revealed later in life because it wasn't like Victoria

was down there watching him chop up people watching, watching the Disney Channel. Yeah, I mean,

that was they were very separate, but but I guess more so speaking to someone who, I guess,

I don't know what you'd call it, were you discovered that there's so many things in your childhood

that were not what they appeared to be? I'm sure there's a word for it, Chevan. But that's what she's

going through and a lot of people end up having those sort of revelations later in life, not always

to this sort of extent, but still traumatic nonetheless, where you look back at your pallet of life

and things that that happened. And for the longest time, when you're thinking about that video game,

that TV show, that book that you read and that basement where you had, you know, summers where it

was a little bit cooler down there because it's hot upstairs and it's just, it's a happy place,

it's not what it turned out to actually be. Every time you get those memories, you're then

triggered back into, oh, that was happy, but my dad was murdering people right over there. It

taints every damn thing and it makes it so difficult and to escape that memory.

Because you don't even have to be talking about your dad anymore to then have to be brought back

into that world because so many things in your world are tainted by him that were all indirectly

done. How does someone carry the good parts of those memories, the pure parts of the memories,

of watching the Disney afternoon in the basement or whatever and and and and and reconcile it and

be okay with it and not have to be triggered by it every damn time. They think about just normal

aspects of life that will come up in any way shape or form as they go about their days.

Yeah, there's no good, good easy way to do it because that's where it affects your identity

because it's all those childhood memories that make your identity. And that I think is the most

damaging thing of all this is your childhood has now been rewritten, right? It's been damaged.

You have been damaged and it's a lot of work to be able to rebuild yourself and reauthor your life

and that's really what's, you know, going to be her work for the rest of her life.

Yeah, Shivon, with that, I mean, I talk about this all time when we're trying to predict

behaviors of others and understand what makes them do to things they do in life. I talk about that

life arc, that spark and inspiration, Dernos formative years of life that we follow the rest of our

lives because those events and things and people gave us a sense of safety, security that we

always want to follow those things that gave us that for the rest of our lives and it comes very

predictable. So in those things that you thought gave you that sense of safety at that early age,

get ripped away in the blink of an eye. As a therapist, do you, what do you do? Do you help them hold

on to the emotions you had at the time? Irrespective of the events that are now come to light or do you

try to superimpose something else in there? Or do you help them write? I mean, what do you do in those

moments when what formed you and forged you into who you are and the belief system and the morals

and ethics you thought you got from that time period in life are totally ripped and told is actually

not what it is. What do you replace it with or don't you replace it? It's a hard one, you know,

because there's no formula, but but I think people do compartmentalize to some degree that yes,

there were good times that I got with this man who's but never lose the fact that yes,

he is a sadistic killer. So it's hard work to do and you sort of have to have to hold on to the

good bits that you can hold on to, but never lose the other reality. And then the other thing that

occurred to me that could be very healing for her is if people can find mentors or innocent surrogate

parents who are wonderful, good, solid people that step into their lives and can sort of take over

that role. And I see that a lot with people who've had childhood trauma. They may be in their

thirties now. They don't have good memories of childhood, but they develop friendships with people

who are a decade or two older who can kind of fill that spot in their heart for them and that

can be really good. So is it okay for her to hold on to the memory of her father as who he was

in her mind? Or does she need to erase that? It's probably impossible to completely erase it

and everybody's going to have different abilities to do that. I have seen some people, let's say,

I'm thinking of a case where father was a pedophile and the kids found out in their teenage years

and they erased him. They erased him. They erased all memory. I mean, obviously they could have

good memories, but they chose not to go there and not to focus on them. Is there a better

or worse to that? Is there a right or wrong? Or is it just always dependent on the individual

as in most cases? Yeah, I think it has to be individualized. I try to support as much as I can,

people's path, you know, because we've all got different brains. We integrated things differently.

And people are pretty reticent to a therapist coming in and saying, now here's the formula.

You've got to do this and do that. I mean, it'd be lovely if there were a template, right?

But you sort of have to have to be the companion and walk people through whatever is going to get

them to the healthiest place that you can. Do all paths lead to healthy if they're able to work through

it? We'd love to see that. I'm sorry. I'm pounding you with these questions. No, they're great.

They're great questions, right? I can tell your behavioral science knowledge for both of you.

You're very knowledgeable people. So the questions are good. That's why I love this show.

But yeah, it's something that I would say is very different depending on the person's capacity.

And some people end up really with very, you know, I don't always like the word healthy because

none of us are ever perfectly there, right? We're always on the path. We're always working towards it.

Journey, not a destination. Exactly. But some people end up very functional and other people descend

into addiction and, you know, just do not really recover. So your thoughts in the comment section

on substack and YouTube on Victoria's journey. It's very fascinating. And obviously,

wish the best for her on that journey wherever it takes her. Links are in the description.

Shavon's book, Nightbird, Available, wherever you get books, go and check it out. And give it

as a gift, too, for someone that might have gone through something or something. I think it's

a great gift for others as well. It's very enlightening. There's a lot of trauma in it and a lot of

healing from trauma, which is the important point. It is. It is. Your thoughts in the comment

section, substack and YouTube will continue that conversation right there. The peacock documentary

about Rex Hirman, the Gilgo Beach Killer House of Secrets did something no courtroom ever would have.

It put a therapist in a room with Rex Hirman and let her dig what came out of those sessions as

a portrait of a man who's timed his body dumps with a stopwatch, literally, who built a four-day

ritual around each killing. And who says he still can't connect the person in the crime scene

photos to himself. Rex Hirman told the world who he is. The question is whether any of us are

really hearing it. We heard his voice in the doc in part four. We've even heard it in the earlier

parts, too. He calls. He calls us. He calls Victoria several times during the new episode in the

docu series. And it usually starts with hello, dear, very folksy, very like nothing's going on.

How you doing? How's prison? Well, you know, we did this today. We did that today. Not really,

you know, it's not the, you know, the scary evil monster where it's like, oh, Rex is on the phone.

Hello, Satan is here. That's not. That's not how it goes. It's hello, dear.

Shavon is Rex still trying to control the narrative here? Is he still trying to control

Asa and the people in his life and what they, what they view him as, how they view him,

or and it's even conscious that he's doing it. If that's what's going on, I think he's conscious

of doing it. And yes, he's very much, I mean, he can play Asa. He knows what to say. And that

Hello, dear. Always creeped me out. Oh my God. That just made my skin crawl. Yeah.

It's, it's, yeah, beyond beyond. I think any of us should be able to understand how to get into

a mind like that. I loved what the therapist said in the beginning where he said something like,

have you ever met a serial killer before or something? And she said, you're not special. You're

not special. Perfect. Yeah. That was perfect. Yes. Yes. Yes. Shavon. So I have mine.

He spent his entire lifetime reveling in sadomasochism, totally abusing women,

totally controlling them, having his playtime. Do you think he was doing exactly the same thing when

he was confessing to Asa and Victoria? He was, he did it for his pure jollies to watch their

reaction to what he was saying. That's sure possible. It's sure possible because a person like

that is shameless. So he, he played the game for a long time. He got away with it. He was

probably as serial killers do, very proud of himself for getting away with it. And he likes the

fact that he can control the narrative. So yeah. And watching the shock on faces, and I think

he's probably disappointed with Asa, maybe not so Victoria, but it was, it was, to me, it was

kind of interesting that he was as transparent as they wanted him to be because I think he took some,

I think he took a lot of pleasure in it. I really do. I think that's him just kind of control

everything. And I mean, and this kind of goes back to what we're talking about Asa in our first

segment. And if you haven't watched it, go back and check that out. Asa entertaining him,

Asa giving him a platform, meaning her ear, the platform is just simply him speaking her listening.

Nobody else. The cameras are away just the two of them. The fact that she goes and listens to him

on the phone calls, visits him. Basically, it feeds him. It feeds, it feeds his ability to share

these stories. And now he wants to share the stories. He was, he was convicted on seven counts.

He admitted to eight because it's, it was like, well, basically, I'm going down. It's almost like,

well, I'll add another story in here. That was a mistake on his part. I don't know. Or was it,

or was it like, well, I'm going down. I want to share everything because he's getting something

out of telling these stories now. He knows the jigs up. But now, but now, how does he get his joy?

He gets to joy, reliving it, sharing the memories. And I think there might be more two in states

that have the death penalty that he doesn't want. I think that I think that's where that is. But,

the eight that he admitted to, I think it's one, one move and one move only so he can openly

talk about it. And in his world, relive the magic. Now he can't have the physical playtime

of the bodies. He's going to play time with his daughter and his wife's mind. So you have two

things going on simultaneously. You have a monster being fed his kibble. And you also have a woman

a victim of him trying to find healing through these conversations. One is, is a much more

innocent and righteous process of the victim trying to find healing. And if she's finding that,

we can argue the healthiness of it of of going and having this revelation in these conversations

with Rex for her own healing. But again, at the same time, you're feeding that beast.

Does somebody need to get in there and show us that that's not a good thing to do to continue

to feed the beast? Or is that not for anybody to say? Because it, again, it's her own personal

journey there for her own healing. And again, who are we to say, if this is benefiting you,

then that is for you, because you are a victim too. But the only way it's seeming, it seems for her

to kind of get to some of these places is by feeding the beast. It's, it's a catch 22.

Yeah, it is. And as I always say, everybody's got their own path. I try to be their companion

in the journey, but not judge it. But I saw one of the comments, I would change my name and leave

the country. And I think that would be, I would celebrate that. I think that would be a marvelous

choice. No, no more hello, dear phone calls. It's, you know, it's like leave the monster behind

and move on. Can you be healed by talking to a psychopath? I mean, he's not going to give you what

you need. I mean, I don't, I, I, I'm with you on all these things, Shavon. I know we talked about

yesterday on a show with Bob. And that is some people have a heart. No, I think it's Monday.

When I was talking with Tony, you know, people in a kind to this, you know, like you have to

forgive, you know, in order to heal or something. No, you don't. Not when you're dealing with this

kind of thing. And also, you don't have to stay with people, even if they're family. If they

are just unhealthy F's like this, what are you doing? Leave. Cut them out. I don't know how,

I don't know how you can talk to someone with zero empathy and heal. I just, I can't, because

they're not giving you anything you need. You need, you need an empathetic person to heal.

Is she doing that in a way to have him basically fill her bucket of information on racks to the

point where it's overflowing and she has to walk away? Is she trying to be pushed away by him

by exposing herself to him? Because just sitting with the racks that she remembers, she's never

going to get there. Does she need, does she need this exposure to the monster version of racks

to truly find the healing to push whatever is deep and so ingrained in her that is connected to

him away? Does she need to get close to break away? I can see

conversation or two about tell me the truth of what you did, because she kept saying, I need to

hear it from him. Okay, hear it from him. You've heard it from him. Now be done. Now detach.

Now re, you know, develop your own perceptions of the world, your own sense of identity.

I think when we look at what would ideally healing look like, that would be what I would

think would be the healthier thing to do. Yeah, because I mean, I'm just listening to her and how

she describes it and how she's bifurcated him for him. She's rationalized for him that, hey,

that's just the monster you. And I know you as a family man. So I don't think that monster bucket

side is ever going to get full enough. She'll just think, oh, that was the monster. She's rash.

I mean, she's, she's dug herself such a perfect bifurcation of who he is that she'll only say,

well, I'm just talking to, I'm just talking to Rex the family man. That's the monster over there.

That bond that I feel that, but in other words, that bucket can't get too full for her to cut off

who she thinks she loves. It's constantly got a hole in it. Yeah, it does. It does. It's a

never, it's a bucket that will never be filled for her, because we're at least full enough that will

say it's that she, I don't think she'll ever accept him. This is one person, not two. This is one.

Exactly. Exactly. Completely. I agree. Which is probably also why she never sought to begin with

because the buckets always had a hole and never for others, you know, depending on who they are,

you know, it would have overflowed at some point. And questions would have been asked.

But because it was always low, the levels, because it's got a big leak in it. And she's okay with it.

It never overflowed. And I'm not saying that she's hiding anything or that she, she consciously

was trying to withhold anything or not know anything. But I would imagine, do you think Shivan,

she's looking back on the last 30 some years of her life going, oh, I wonder if that was this.

Nothing, nothing specific, but just little moments here and there where she thought

nothing of them at the moment, but maybe in the context now that something she thought really

meant something else. It would be a good thing if she were able to look back honestly and try to put

the pieces together. And then as you say, stop with the separation of, well, there was the good

him and the bad him. In truth, the bad him was always there. It was always operating in the background.

She didn't know about it. So I can see a place for a little bit of that, but it would be interesting

five years down the road to have another documentary about how she evolved, how she changed. Is she

still taking those? Hello, dear phone calls. Do you think I'm another angle on this? I'm curious whether

this would be effective therapy if anyone's ever done this way? And that is instead of trying to

have her face and understand who Rex is, would it be helpful just let's just ignore Rex and what

she's doing there? What if we educated her on what psychopathy looks like? You know, kind of, and so

she can kind of hope maybe at some point comes her own conclusion where she starts connecting the dots

because I mean, if she's curious about human beings and how they work and she has a deeper understanding

of serial killers and psychopathy, you know, maybe she, again, I guess it depends on her level of

curiosity. I don't think she's got any goal. And capability of understanding it. Yeah.

Right. It would be wonderful if if I were her therapist, I would certainly be doing that. That

would have been one of the earliest things is let me explain the mind of a psychopath. Let me explain

the mind of a sadist. Let me explain how this works. And again, you're right. Does she have the

capacity to integrate that and to make sense of it and listen to it? What do you make of the fact

that it was his childhood bedroom that he's doing this horror of things? And I mean, it's interesting.

I mean, there are some parallels here with BTK. BTK wasn't doing these things in the home,

but he lived in his childhood home. It's an interesting parallel there. He would go back and his

family was none the wiser. But Rex is going back to his own childhood home. His own childhood

bedroom in the basement and doing these horrible things. What's the significance of that?

I think it's really significant. That shows where these fantasies originated,

where he started creating this movie in his mind of what he wanted to do to women.

And probably started very young. The bedroom is part of the ritual. And it's another one of

these tremendously creepy things about this behavior. That bedroom is hell. I mean, hell happened in

that room. He's controlled his environment his entire life, because he said it's been his

entire life unbelievable. And he used such crass terms in the context play time, clean up time.

I mean, it almost sounds like, you know, preschool. Okay, it's clean up time. It's time to put

our way or toys, like the good girls and boys do. I mean, it's very, very childlike in some of the

ways, yeah, in the ways that he described these sort of things going on in this capacity.

Do you, when you have this sort of splitting of this personality here, you got the family man,

you got this. And yes, the evil one is the one all around. He's so bad that he's able to live a

fake life with this family and bamboozle them for all those years and feel no guilt. That's just

how damn evil this guy is. The fact that he was doing these horrific things in his home over,

and over, and over, and over, and over, and over. In that, does that mind when he's having his

four day play time? Is he ever considering getting caught or is it, is it worth it to him? Is,

is, is, I'm willing to go down for this because I, I, I need this so badly. Is it, is it such an

urge that something in like in him has that there's, there's no, like water, you need it to survive?

Is, was doing these sort of things that you may have a need to him that there was just no stopping it?

I, I do think they're, they're like an addict in that sense. They think about it all the time.

They have a sense of out being out of control. They even if they think, well, maybe I'll get caught

someday, you know, maybe I should stop, but I'm not going to stop. But then there's that grandiose

piece with all his meticulous planning. These folks tend to be, in addition to psychopathic

and sadistic, they tend to be narcissistic and think that they can outsmart everyone. And that's

part of the game for them is outsmarting everyone. So he was willing to take the risk of potentially

getting caught. But I think probably in his mind, he didn't think he would. He thought he would

get away with it, especially because he did for so many years. Yeah, yeah, a lot of reps and

doing it. And I think he made his plan B and C too, you know, and he said this, I kind of have

believed them, you know, making his manual up. So he didn't have to do it anymore. No, I thought

that was part of plan B because a large reason why psych serial killers do what they do is defend

it's the aspect of the things they're doing to build up the anticipation. And so even if he's

unable to do it for a period of time, just like Dennis Raider did, you can fantasize and substitute

it with other things. So he can actually work on his manual, think about his manual. So even behind bars,

he's able to do the same stuff because it's and then what can you do? He can play with people by

by by revealing to them all the horrendous things I did and watch the impact of him, the horror

and their eyes like he did to his wife and daughter. And which you'll probably do again when he's

talking to BAU. That's exactly what he's going to do. And then and then as he gets a little bored

and people get bored with him, he might we might start learning about other things. He'll start

dribbling out like Dennis Raider did. Oh, I got a little bit of here, a little bit of there. Oh,

did I say, oh, maybe it was nine, 10? Oh, did you look down on South Carolina, North Carolina?

I've seen what I mean. He's going to he's going to keep playing with everyone till the day he dies.

Do you think? Do you think there's more Shivan other than the A to especially South Carolina

where there is the death penalty and they use it? I would sure bet. So I think I think that

that would definitely fit. And the other thing that comes to mind is by telling these stories,

he makes the families suffer. And these guys get pleasure from that. One of the people who

owned that was the Parkland school shooter who said very openly in some of his writings and some

of the conversations when they were saying, oh, well, maybe he'll feel guilty during the trial,

you know, watching the family suffer. He said, I like to feel I like to see the family suffer.

So he's going to revel in the victim impact statements and let's to get up there and do what the

I keep forgetting. Go burgers. Yeah, you know, you know what I'm talking about.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, uh,

console, uh, gone levises. Yep, uh, and eviscerate him as only you can a psychopath. Yeah,

and assault his insignificance is salt the man who had assault, you know, the nothing he is in

the world and how the world will just forget about him. Other than that, he's going to revel in

their victim statements. So I hope 100%. I hope they don't give him anything to relish. Yeah,

that's it. That's a myth. We have to have the bust as well. That victim impact statements

for a true sadistic psychopath that that hurts them. It doesn't hurt them. They love it. They love

it. It's a treat. Yeah, it's the cake at the end of the party. Yeah. Yeah, it's messed up.

Shevans got psychotherapist and author as always. Thank you so much. Her latest book Nightbird.

It is available wherever you get books highly suggest going. A word winning. Nightbird and award

winning. Yes, as well. Robin Drake. It's all not all about me. It's available also wherever you

get books go and check them not award winning. Yes. Yeah. So a lot of copies. I sold a lot of copies

but uh, that is awesome. Yeah. Go uh, go check them both out and your thoughts in the comments

section on substacking YouTube. We will continue our conversation there. Press subscribe wherever

you're getting podcasts. We're watching us. You don't miss any of our conversations. Like I said,

we'll continue it in the comments until next time. First you've on for Todd for Robert,

I'm Tony Bruceke. We'll talk again real soon. Want more on this case and others?

Then press subscribe now and don't miss a moment of true crime coverage from Tony Bruceke

and the Hidden Killers podcast.