Robin Dreeke Takes Your Questions on Rex, Nancy Guthrie, and the Duggars

All right, was it on your bingo card this year for Rex Ewerman to plead guilty? Well, he

hasn't officially done it yet and the judge has to accept it. So we don't want to count

the chickens before they hatch, but it looks like it might be happening in the next handful

of days. We've been in flooding. We've been getting flooded with a lot of your messages

and questions about this case. There's so many facets to it because what we're really

talking about is seven different murder cases all combined into one, the life of Rex Ewerman

with his family, living this double life for all those years. That's a whole conversation

unto itself. The lives of these victims, each and every single one of them in their families,

that's at least seven more conversations. There's so many pieces to it. Today, we are going to

break it down. We're going to answer some of your questions in the Q and A. So feel free to

dump your questions there for us in YouTube, substack, Facebook, wherever you're watching,

and we'll try and get to them as we work away through it. Robin Drake retired FBI special

agency for the counterintelligence behavioral analysis program. As always, my co-host, one of my

best friends with us. Robin, was it on your, was it on your bingo card that he was going to

to plea in this case? No. It was a shocking thing. And I do apologize for everyone tuning in if

I glitch a little bit. I am on the road in the motorhome, moving my son from one place to another,

so we're on our starling today. But no, Tony, this was such a shock. Like one of those happy

surprises, but sad at the same time, because I was really looking forward to having him weasel in

front of us to try to get out of all this, because I know the evidence they had was overwhelming.

But kind of like, you know, co-burgers thing was least, you know, getting ready. It was going and

then he pled guilty. But this we're, I feel like we're the public is being denied all his

rendousness. But the most important thing is the families are guaranteed some semblance of justice.

So from that standpoint, yes, but so shocked. Yeah, totally shocked. I am. And remember, I mean,

last last year, we had the co-burgers situation where he pled towards the 11th hour.

We weren't quite to the 11th hour here with Rex, but we were getting close. It's, it's,

do you feel like this is taking anything away from, from the families, or is this,

is this the more swift path to justice? I'm not trying to think of a way to frame it. What's your

thoughts there? You know, you don't know, because you just don't know what each family

wants needs and would feel satisfied with, because that does vary a lot. And I,

luckily not having ever lost someone this horrendous way. I can't even, you know,

suppose it's like. But what we do have is we have a guarantee. We have guarantee he will be put

away for the rest of his life. And for that, I'm grateful for that. I'm glad there's no appeal.

There's no chance. You know, we're not going to be hanging on our, our every word of the defense,

you know, on a cross examination, trying to defraud all these other people. So I'm grateful,

but I just hope, as always, that the real victims in this, the ones that are survivors left behind,

do find this, satisfying, and have some justice in it for them. So they can move forward

with what they want to do next. I can, yeah, I mean, if you think of it, I mean, if you were to

to fight this all the way to a verdict, there is a level of revictimization that would go on

in that trial through whatever defense that they would, would mount, basically refuting all the

evidence that exists. And that in itself, I think that would be the, I mean, I've never been through

it. Thank God. I can't imagine. So it's hard to contemplate. But to me, I think that would be

the most enraging is if, if the evidence, I mean, the hairs are there, his planning documents are

there. I mean, there's, I mean, his attorneys came to him. I'm sure and said, um, they're really

away out of this, buddy. Uh, so this might make the most sense. But he could have, he could have kept

going. There's, there's nothing saying that he couldn't have kept going with this. But that to me,

I think would be the outside of the actual crime, the actual murders itself is the injustice,

the way that he could have gotten on the stand if he wanted to or others could have gotten on

the stand to back him up as witnesses or expert witnesses to, to try and vie for his, his innocence

when all the evidence points elsewhere. And he knows it's not true. And, and just to try and bamboozle

people after they've already done something. That, that to me, I think that would be the hardest

damn thing in the world. And I hope to God, I am never in a situation like that, where I have a

loved one that is deceased and somebody like this took them out because I would not be a good person

in that courtroom. I, I, I don't think I could peacefully sit there in the gallery and not get

arrested. I, I, I, I think I, especially was like my kid or something. It would not be a good day.

I, I, I would need, I would need a lot of good support, uh, folks with me going, it's now worth

the Tony calm down. Um, cause that will be hard. I think I think a lot of people feel that way.

Yeah. And, you know, the, the women that he wound up killing to their families, it's kind of

a double edge sore because you know, they'd probably tried to discredit some of the people on the,

on the prosecution side. And I just, I hate seeing that. Um, I don't know what they would actually

do though because again, the evidence overwhelming. But same time, I don't know the victims names

that well. And I would like to know the victims names better so people can really focus in

and zero on that as well as I really, God, it's, it's a, it's a sensitive subject because the women

that he targeted, they were disenfranchised, I'll say, and they were, and they had their own issues

and challenges throughout life. And it would have been really good. I think from a potent,

I mean, not from a family viewpoint, but from a public standpoint of realizing, hey, we need

to do better as a society to protect women from having to, you know, I don't know what the case

is here, but I know there's a lot of women that get trafficked against their will. Yeah, that might

have been part of this as well. And he then targeted those types of women, um, which it's, it's

quite, quite droople tragedy going on, um, cause he thought he could actually take advantage of

his women and hide him playing sight and no one would ever notice, but, but, gratefully,

everyone notices when a loved one goes missing and there's no explanation. And I think it,

this is one that kind of makes you think a little bit too, um, about, about life, about the people

that are in your life, the choices other people make in your life, people that you love and the

choices they make. And if they're bad choices, if they're not good choices, if they're choices at

a desperation, if the choice is because they were taken advantage of retrafting, we were talking

about people who were, were ass workers. Um, and, and in a lot of these cases, at the time of their

death, uh, their family really wasn't a present piece of their life. Some had like a sister,

some had pieces here and there, but a lot of them were not necessarily going to Easter dinner or,

or whatever. They, they, they were a bit estranged in many of these cases. And unfortunately, um,

it took a tragedy like this, I think, for some families, I'm sure, to, to kind of reckon with

the disconnect of however that happened with, with them and their loved one and, and to really,

I think, see the value sometimes that, that we overlook sometimes as human beings when we're

upset at them because for whatever reason, this or that, and you always think there's going to be

another day. There's going to be another day where hopefully this changes and she makes it right

or he makes it whatever it may or, where things change and we can reconcile, you don't always get

that opportunity. And, yeah. And I think this is one of those cases where it really, it, it drives

that point home. These families didn't have a chance to, to have that reconciliation moment with

their daughters, um, for however they, they, they chose, uh, or whatever their relationship status was.

And unfortunately, they, they kind of have to do that very one-sided because they're gone.

Um, for those of us who do have families and loved ones and not, obviously, it's not common that

everybody has family members are doing sort of work, but it doesn't matter what they're doing.

It's just, it matters that they're human beings and to value them, yeah. And to value them for who

they are while they are here and, and the abandonment, the walking away. I mean, some, I mean,

there, there's so many caveats to this and it's all these complicated relationships. But,

unfortunately, I think a lot of those families had that realization too late. Um, so if anything,

it can be somewhat of a viewable lesson from the outside. Let's go to one of the questions that

we got. It says, Tony, I watched both documentaries and cannot stop thinking about his daughter.

She went and visited him in jail and came out still thinking he probably did it.

This is a Victoria. She says in the doc, I think he probably did it. Well,

awesome. The other side is like, he's my hero. Um, how do you sit across from someone

and, and feel that? What do you think that, that daughter is going through right now? She already

was kind of almost there of, yeah, he probably did it. Now we got essentially confirmation that

how do you think the family is processing that? Devastating, absolutely devastating heart

breaking, heart wrenching. You know, and we saw this in the Dugger family as well, not serial killer

side, but where you felt completely betrayed by someone who, for your entire life, you thought

was there to protect you, to keep you safe, especially the father figures. They pay a huge role

in a young girl's life. They really do. And to have the, the protector, the provider of your

life, the who you thought you knew inside and out to all of a sudden be this horrendous monster

that kills women and not just conjecture or what someone's accusing them of admittingly doing

that, that it totally rips away your own self identity, how you identify your family, your father

and this entire thing. And you're left with a huge gaping wound in whole of now what? And

everything you thought you knew has completely been a lie, a huge massive deception. And then,

then who knows what she'll go through, but then I know there's a lot of self-blame in here.

Should I have noticed something? Oh my god, I can't believe I didn't notice this. Could I have

done something? So it's going to be a whole gamut of needed, and I know they already need a

counseling before there's even more so now, I imagine. Yeah, I mean, it seems Victoria was more

dealing with reality on reality terms than Asa, Asa, the mom, everyone was looking at her at the

beginning, how did you not know this was going on? You went on vacation and every time you went

on vacation by yourself or with your kids, he didn't go and then he was doing these horrible

things. I mean, you got this layer in the basement and we saw the way she kind of minimized it

and explained it away in the documentary of like, I know what this room was once. And I wasn't

allowed in here, but I, you know, she thinks she knows her husband, but her prism of who her

husband is to her was not who he was to everybody else. And I think that's an interesting thing,

because I think we see this on a much more micro level in many relationships where people have

their secrets that they don't really, you know, tone to or talk about with their family. And it's

not always, you know, I'm out killing sex workers. Sometimes it's like, I'm addicted to gambling

or whatever, you know, whatever it may be that insert vice here of some sort. Usually it's something,

you know, not like that, but, but something that they're going to keep hidden. Then to kind of

square that up for Asa who already despite the damning evidence against her husband,

that she had the documents in his basement, like basically the kill sheet. The hair is all there.

And she was still holding on to this hope that he wasn't this because she was someone who came

from a darker place, a place of insecurity. And he swooped in and we look at it differently.

I mean, she looks at it as night and shining armor. Everyone else probably looks at it as a

predator finding prey because he found in her someone who could be his partner, but also

wouldn't ask too many questions. I think a lot of people, you know, relate to that to a certain

extent. Doesn't mean everybody's out there being a killer. But, but people do look at this and go,

what about me? We got well question here. Honestly, it says this case has messed with my head in a

way. I didn't expect my husband travels for work. He's gone a lot. I know that's nothing,

but I've caught myself thinking differently since I started following this case. Is that crazy?

Or do you think a lot of people feel that way? That's from Lisa and Substak.

Yeah. People get paranoid sometimes when you when you follow things like this. But here's a

failsafe for for everyone at every moment of every day. Just be transparent and seek transparency

with those people you care about in your life. Be open, ask for your communication, be transparent,

be vulnerable. And as long as that's reciprocated back to you and at the same tempo, there's no

wobbles in the force. There's no tempo shifts with anyone and everyone's continuing to be that

kind of person with you and then you don't have anything to worry about because remember, healthy

relationships don't do this. But not all unhealthy relationships do because happy people just don't

kill people. So if you have a good, happy relationship, it won't happen. Yeah.

Let me throw this out there because let's let's caveat this a little bit.

Is there ever a world where a partner has a a hidey space like this where I think it was like

what under the stairs and it was his place where I mean, I think we all have a secret place and for

a lot of us, it's our phone, you know, where like all those for a lot of people, it's not where it's

like, you know, I could care less, honestly. My, my partner don't have each other's passwords,

but if she ever wanted to go ahead, take a look. I could care less. But you know, for some people,

that's very, very protected. I'm talking more than just a phone. I'm talking like a room, a space,

a computer, things and places where you are not allowed to go to in that house and you know,

you can't, is that, I mean, that to me would be a major red flag, no matter what's going on.

Or, you know, we're some, but the thing is some get conditioning relationships to think,

well, it's okay. We can have our own spaces and our own places like one person's using it to play,

you know, Candy Crush. The other one is, you know, plotting how to kill, you know, S workers.

Yeah, I'm not a fan. Yeah. Does it happen all the time? Yes. Every single case I investigated

inside the FBI, everyone had a secret place. Yeah. Whether it's, it's this small or this large room,

everyone had something and what secret place is something from your perception that you're

shamed of, that you're afraid to share because you feel you're going to be judged in some way for

that behavior you have, a vice you have or something like that. I will say, though, the vast

majority of human beings, when you share and are vulnerable, we'll get an immense amount of grace

from the people who actually do care about you in your life. And so my counter to everything is,

again, that open, honest communication. For example, just my wife and I, every time I go someplace,

granted, I'm, I retire from the FBI most of the time. I'm just traveling around, moving kids around,

setting up weddings with my daughter and all this stuff. But I go to the gym every day and I do

all these things I'm out and about. I do backpacking. Every time my wife says, has any sort of question,

my always responses come with me. Sometimes she will. Sometimes you won't. And so when you're

always willing to have someone come along, always willing to engage. Oh, same thing. Like you said,

open cell phones, all these things as long as you're comfortable doing it, sharing everything with

full transparency. And they're willing to do that with you. Good to go. What happens in the case,

like here, man, he groomed her into secrecy, accepting his secret place. And so it became a normal

part of their relationship from a very, very young, married couple age. And so when you groom them

into this and then children are born, children is always accepted as what is kind of like the

duggers. This is just the way it is. And so they're groomed into thinking it's acceptable for a

grown man to have a secret room that is off limits to everyone. Don't even know it's in there.

And if you even whisper about it, things get angry. People get, I mean, when you have negative

emotions and negative behaviors going behind secret things, that is not to be fair. That is

something serious shit going on. You got to really discuss and deal with or get away from.

Yeah. I mean, and the normalization of it is interesting. And you don't know it's abnormal

if you've never really experienced that before or if you grew up around it, especially if you

grew up around that type of behavior, that is normal to you. If dad did this, if mom did this,

if uncles, if somebody did it, well, because we tend to take things that happen in our childhood,

and if it happened in our childhood and we survived it, it's like, oh, oh, that's okay. That's over

there. And you don't really see the potential for darkness there either.

To just riff on that a little bit, if someone said gun safety, I definitely always lock up gun

safes and things like that in the house for safety. Because here's a telltale sign to kind of

riff with it. If someone is willing to have a secret place and keep it off limits, and that's

the transparent secret place. In other words, you're aware that there's a secret place and you

just know not to go in there. The likelihood of there being something else now that you're not

aware of, that's a secret is pretty damn high because when people get comfortable keeping secrets

from someone else in their life, that's a warning flag. If they're comfortable keeping secrets,

there's a lot of secrets probably that they're being kept. And after a certain point in time,

I think if it kind of this way, like if it's the first time you're hearing of it and either

you're going to accept that boundary quote unquote or you're not, you kind of got to speak up

immediately. Because if you don't, then the secret level just keeps rising and there's more things

behind that veil, behind that secrets. And even if you do suspect something, and I don't know if

also suspected anything or not, I can't speak to that. I would be genuinely shocked if she didn't.

Not necessarily to this level, but just suspected that there was something amiss.

Maybe Rex is a gambling problem. Maybe Rex has something over here. I'm going to guess she

wouldn't have suspected it went to this level. But you don't necessarily want to pull that

lever, I think, at a certain point either because you also realize that pulling that lever,

you don't know what's behind door number three. And it could completely blow up your own

world too if you pull it. And right now everything's working just swimmingly. We go on vacations

separately and it's okay. He's working. We got a home work. You know, I mean, to her, the norm,

the status quo was just a okay. And why ruffle those feathers? Because everything was going a hell

of a lot better than what she had had seen in her life where she had come from too. So just not

wanting to pull that lever, even if you do suspect something, it feels like that would go up

over time too, just because of the sheer fear of what that could potentially mean by calling it out.

You hit it right there, Tony. Fear. It's the greatest motivator. Yeah. And you're right. So,

again, let's reverse it. Let's put it in all of those shoes. So you have all these red flags,

they're horrendous big red flags, right? But how's it impact her? He's still providing,

making her feel safe, safety security and prosperity. Those are what we're seeking and craving. So

even you got red flags over here, which is just as really incongruent behavior with what I would

hope to have in a relationship. But again, if she's not doing a comparing contrast with anyone

in anything who knows. But if it's not impacting her in a negative way, why would she change it?

Yeah. I mean, unless she's again, she's she's suspecting something is going on. That's not healthy.

But she can rationalize it away because it's not affecting me. He's a good provider.

He's my knight in shining. I mean, see how she created that narrative of knight in shining armor

and that rode the arc through the entire thing. And all he had to do, the thing that the imagery

that popped in my head is, you know, it always does with these things is he's like, he's like Dracula

and she's like Renfield. Yeah. You know, like he's out there sucking the life out of people. And

there she is as the willing enabler, not asking too many questions, kind of cowering in the background,

making sure that everything happens according to plan, but not really asking too many questions and

try not to be couple bowl, even home connected. That's it. Well, and he also got to consider too.

She's raising two kids. One has some disabilities. The other doesn't. But they were they were young.

So that's that's two other worlds. You got to blow up if you were to pull that lever and then

you have that guilt on top of it. You got fear. And then you have guilt too because if you hadn't

pulled that lever, none of this would have happened. And she obviously she never pulled the lever.

Somebody else figured this out before she ever had to say it was kind of forced upon her.

But I think a lot of people live in that space and and it's a scary, scary place to be. And

as time has gone on, I have a lot more empathy for her now that we've kind of seen this from a

different from a more balanced perspective because going in, it's like, come on. Let's take a

closer. But I think I mean, if there was anything there, I think we wouldn't know about now.

Yeah. They would have charged her and then something. But again, you get conditioned to learn how to

turn a blind eye when you don't think it's like this. You know, something unhealthy is going on,

but to confront it. You are totally then negating all the choices you made in life. You're negating

your own self identity. Again, laws of human nature. It goes completely against what we think is

on our best interests. Because remember, all of us very predictable. We are going to act in what we

as the individual thinks is our best interest in terms of our safety, security, and prosperity.

He was doing all those things from her context without a loving critic on the outside saying it,

but from her context, that's what he was doing. Irrespective of the fact that she had,

because she has a matured, I agree, she had no idea that he's actually killing people

and keeping trophies and doing other horrendous things. She just thought of some gunsafe he had

down there, some boys club thing, whatever. Yeah. And then you play it down because you don't

think that it can't be that surprise. He's never been in a horrible situation. Unexpected development.

We will be doing a five part series on this soon, really breaking down all of the story

and getting, helping folks better understand this whole case. And here's an interesting part to

it too. Before we move on to our next thing, he's essentially, if he does, in fact, plead

to seven of these murders, the seven that he's charged with, there's a lot of unsolved one still.

I would not be surprised if the thought process in confessing to these or admitting guilt on

these somehow is connected to possibly other ones and maybe, maybe lowering the odds of being

charged with those. I mean, it all depends how the system works as to if that were to come down

or not. And I'm also curious, son of Sam Law, I guess, is in effect in this case so he cannot

profit from this. I'm correct because it is. I do not know the answer to that. But it's a good

thing to look at because I be, so I'm really, here's the other thing I'm really curious about,

you know, because so BTK did a similar thing where he pledged and then he's trickled out all

these details over the years to kept the attention on himself. He was a lot more charismatic

than Rex Jorman. And so I'm really curious, you know, part of the reason why is I look,

I researched this about what makes someone do this in this situation, you know, where he's been

accused of being a serial killer. The only ones that really fitting right now is overwhelming

evidence, but again, if you're narcissistic and it's all about me, you want that kind of grandiosity.

But some of the driving factors is family. So if the driving factor in this is because of his

family's pressure and he's actually had enough empathy to succumb to it, I wonder what he's

thinking he can actually do behind bars for the rest of their lives to help them maybe profit

from it. Again, it's, I'm really curious what he was thinking and what it is in his mind about

what he can do to provide for his family. Even it's like, all right, my life is ruined.

Maybe I can still do something for them. I'm curious whether he has that kind of empathy to do.

I think that's a big question. What inspired him to go down this road of guilty? You know,

what was that? That's something to think about. And we can discuss on the coming days on

that, your thoughts in the comments section on substack in YouTube. We'd love for you to weigh in

and give us your thoughts there. Let's move over to another case that we continue to cover.

It's been nearly two months. No arrest, no proof of life. Savannah Guthrie sitting across

from Hota Kotby, crying saying she wakes up in the dark every single night, imagining her mother's

terror while all of that is happening. The department running this investigation just had a deputy

arrested and fired, not connected to this case, but on a kidnapping charge of his own 22 year old

Pima County Sheriff's employee allegedly holding a handcuff woman in his patrol car,

pressuring her for S. Not related to Nancy, but it's the same department, the same building,

the same chain of command under a sheriff. His own deputies want to vote out unanimously,

but they can't. And the question nobody can stop sitting with is this, how much confidence are we

supposed to have in any of this? And what happens to Nancy if the answer is none. The optics are not

good for the department to see one of their own getting arrested, charged like this, kidnapping.

Now it has nothing to do with the Nancy Guthrie case. They did look at it initially,

and the profile of this officer who has is facing charges does not necessarily fit the physical

makeup of what we understand of being porch guy, but I believe, I mean, when I saw it this weekend,

I was like, hmm, but as of now it doesn't appear, I guess, shouldn't anybody have any confidence

in the Pima County Sheriff's Department at this point? They are taking a lot of shots, aren't they?

When I saw this, you know, and we were talking about this with Jennifer Kaufendever on Friday too,

you know, we want to give a lot of, because as law enforcement professionals for my entire career,

we've been there. We've seen bosses like this. We've seen situations like this. You get a lot of

credit towards the worker bees at the ground level executing, but this thing when you have an

arrest internally for a really a chart of kidnapping, you're like, all right, this isn't just a

problem at the top. We might have systemic leakage from the top that's causing a culture of crazy.

And that that's, again, whether it is or isn't in reality, doesn't really matter as much as,

well, it does matter, but it equally matters even more in public reception, because

where do leads and tips come from? The public. Where does faith in our organization's institutions

come from the public? And every time you are self-inflicted and a wound on yourself by having a

culture and a climate of crazy, like this organization, like Pima County Sheriff's Department,

it erodes trust. And then you're looking at, I keep trying to find out, you know, is the investigative

team solid? Is the investigation literally as as me, that's all I keep worrying about and thinking

about how solid and consistent is that investigative team? And now when you start seeing shots coming in

and you start seeing where people have removed here, you're like, well, was this person key or not

key? I mean, it's too much mental gyrations going on, which is a lot of chaos. So because here's

what's happening internally, if you are so worried about a witch hunt internally or about who to,

I got to worry about or not communicate with or I got to maneuver around this person and this person,

all that bandwidth. And then remember, as a human being, if you got 100, 100 kilowatts of bandwidth,

say, right? And now we got to use 20% of it on this individual alone. And then maybe 5%

percent over here and 10% over here and 15% with this person and all this other, you're left

down to like 5 or 10% of your bandwidth for what actually matters investigating who took Nancy

Guthrie and trying to find her and trying to find a culprit. Meanwhile, if you're all your bandwidth

is sucked up because of crazy around you, that's where the problem lies. I was thinking about this

this weekend a bit. Now, obviously, had we walked into this and we had a competent sheriff and we

had a competent sheriff's department and everything was going swimmingly. We wouldn't be having this

conversation, but we don't and we are. The fact that there is this much crazy seemingly going on

around nanos and the department does that ultimately. And I'm talking long term here,

help or hurt the investigation. Now again, competency early on would have been lovely.

But if we're talking long term and actually finding the guy, let's say this wasn't Nancy

Nancy Guthrie. Let's say this was someone, one of the many that go missing in the Sonora desert

every year, which is hundreds of people, hundreds of bodies that they find there. I saw

Coffin Daffer posted something about that earlier today, the sheer number that are bodies that

are found in this desert. If there wasn't this noise around this investigation, around nanos,

I'm thinking, you know, she would just be another person that would, well, it's another one that's

missing. The fact that there is all this noise and the fact that there's all these eyeballs that

are exposing all the BS, all the corruption, all the incompetency, you know, all the insider

trading, if you will, to the public and they're all seeing this, is that ultimately a good thing

because ultimately it will result in change. Now, it's not going to result in Nancy Guthrie

coming back alive or quickly. But I do wonder if I'm trying to find the silver lining in this

chit-chow of does the exposure and the fact that it was someone that had notoriety?

Is that a positive because it will hopefully eventually lead to maybe many more of these cases

being solved, looked into better? I mean, prime example, the case we had just talked about, Rex

Heraman, for 10 years, you had an incompetent sheriff there that was like dabbling in the

S-worker world himself. So he didn't want anybody looking up. And I'm not saying that, you know,

nanosis out there, knocking off, you know, elderly people. But in terms of just attitude and how

things are being handled, seemingly we have some issues here. An exposure came for the other guy

and things changed and now look, Kuremen's been arrested and we got seven charges and he's

pointing guilty. I'm wondering if there will be an eventual, here's the long-term positive to

this experience. I think so. So I was talking to, I checked into one of the campgrounds I stayed

at over the weekend and the guy actually recognized us from, you know, being on him killers and he's

like, oh, I love true crime. And he goes, he's asking about the Nancy Guthrie case in particular.

And he goes, and we're asking actually have an exactly the same conversation. And I brought up

exactly the same thing. I said in the long run, when you actually use someone like this because

they have celebrity notoriety to bring attention towards a problem area, it can be a good thing.

I mean, Gabby Petito is a great example. He was actually out in the desert four miles from where

they were at in camping, right? And he goes, do you know how many bodies they found in the desert

when they're searching for her that they had no idea about all these unsubs and all these missing

women that went missing out in that area. He said they, when he was in his area, he was in it.

I think he said they found 10 or 12 that were otherwise like dead cold cases. And so because it

brought the attention to again, the challenge here is, and this is where it's taken a sad shift.

Every single case, again, I was on a show the other day, where it's easy to see every single

national case like this, the leadership of the top gets panged by us. I mean, we just, we

pile on because we're looking for perfection. We're looking for people to do a better job. We're

looking for better communication. There's always a level. Now, here's what the big difference is,

though, he, you know, nano is falls right in the realm of normal, unfortunately, for these

behaviors, but here's what's not normal. In all these other instances, though, you don't have

their entire police department signing petitions to remove them. You don't have 40 years of lying

on resumes. So his performance level is little below average from what we typically see in these

high level situations and high cases like this, but where he's falling bottom is what everyone

behind the scenes is saying about him, the kind of officer he is, the kind of leader he is,

and his whole department is in chaos. In all these other cases, the departments seemed pretty

solid. They actually were able to execute and then things got solved because of those solid

departments, but because of nano's leadership in here, he's got a crap show on his hands and

it's playing out unfortunately in a negative way, I think. And a question about the tips that

have been coming in over 1500 tips came in after the reward was, after the reward was up, I should

say, to the million dollars. Obviously, not a cold case, but a flood of information. It's not

nothing. The question is, what does that mean when the leads are there, but the answers aren't.

Pam asked that on X. Yeah, well, when the leads are there, but the answers aren't,

means you got a lot of noise coming in, but you always got to sift through noise because you

have no idea where it can go. And, you know, Coffin Defer and I talk about it all time. Everything

gets run down and more of the better because especially when you start, I wouldn't say coming to

the end, but as your as your meaty leads start ebbing away and you're left with, hey, I saw a guy

driving down my road at three o'clock in the morning, 50 miles away. Those are the kind that you've

got to start saying, oh, maybe that's something. Maybe this is something. Maybe this is something.

The hard part then is not just following up on the lead, but then seeing if it relates to all the

other data points we have and see if there's a connection there because that's what we're doing

when we're following leads. We have the core base of knowledge that we know from the crime scene,

from the digital analysis, everything we did. And then what we're doing is if this, what we know in

here is left of sat a dead end, well, then all these other leads that are coming in, we're seeing,

is there a connection? Is there a connection? Is there a connection? So right now, more leads are

better because we keep trying to see, is there a connection? Is there a connection? But as all these

other ones dry up, we're still left with this and it doesn't really be seen to bring us anywhere

yet. Did you get a chance to watch Savannah's interview with Hota? Yes. Yep. I've never just

thoughts. What was your reaction after seeing it? I've really liked watching her throughout

everything. I think her messaging has been more thoughtful than anyone else's than Thanos,

for sure. This one was the, again, the hugely empathetic draw. Because I know people are

criticizing the interviewer, interviewer or whatnot, but you can connect with her because she's

being very genuine organic with how she's portraying everything that's been going on. It's very heartfelt.

I think every single statement that she has made and the family's made has been very, very strategic,

but strategic humanistic empathy driven. I mean, so it's very thoughtful with a purpose,

but not manipulative because it's very real to who she is. So I think it's been very, very

spot on every single time. I mean, seriously, think about this. She hasn't had a negative response

necessarily to anything that she's ever said. Thanos can't say a word without everyone pounded

on him because everything coming out of his mouth is stupid. Yeah. Yeah. What do you think?

I thought it was heartbreaking. I was really surprised, honestly, to see the criticism of the

interview. I saw something over the weekend. I'm like, what? But they criticize in her Hoda.

I thought they're. Everything. I've seen every version of criticism. I think it all kind of

depends on where your mindset is going into watching it. Because there's still so many people that

are on this bandwagon of that the family had something to do with it. What? And I think and they're

walking into this going negative confirmation by exactly like why didn't hold a really pounder

like because it wasn't that type of interview. Like this was this was a friend to a friend and you

can argue their friends are not friends. I don't really care. They've been colleagues for more

than a decade. There's a level of they're there for each other at the worst moments of life.

And is the today show, you know, they'd be remiss in not making, you know, points of this. Like

nobody can win in this because everybody wants to pound everybody down. It's like well,

today shows, you know, cashing in on it. And you'd be criticizing the shit out of the today show

if they weren't covering it as well. It's like the more awareness the better. And I can guarantee

Savannah would appreciate coverage on this to help figure out what the hell's going on.

So I've seen every criticism of it. But why wait until they pound her like this is not that

interview. She's not like she gave us more tips too. We learned a lot more about

what we learned about that than the last two months. Yeah. So I was I was surprised by that. But

you know, just the I think the most heartbreaking thing is and I cannot imagine because there's

nothing anyone is going to be able to say to Savannah than other maybe other than maybe a lot

of intensive therapy with a very good therapist where she's not going to blame herself.

Because you can clearly see Savannah is blaming herself. Oh hell yes. Because because she exists

because she chose this career path because she's a person in the public eye because she did some

fun segments with her mom, which is fine to do. We all do it. I've had my mom on every show I've

ever done. And the last thing on my mind is every that's something horrible. And I hope that's

like you can't not live your life. You cannot not do those normal things that you would do when

you're in that sort of a position. You know, and you can't live your life in a fear state of

of of of all of that. But but you're going to run all that stuff through your mind after everything

as you know, well, if I yes, maybe if you decided to work at Wendy's for your whole life,

this never would have happened. But but that's that's not life. And I cannot imagine in any

planet that Nancy Guthrie would have ever, you know, thought or said or her siblings would have

ever have thought or said, yeah, you know, you're in the public spotlight. That puts us get some sort

of risk. I really wish you wouldn't be there. No one's ever said that the biggest, the biggest

critic, the biggest thing that's going on is is the demons that are attacking Savannah in her mind

right now. And in all of them too. And because remember, you know, she was at, you know, Nancy was at

her daughter's house and her son was house, you know, playing cards, you know, doing their normal

every Saturday night thing. And because I know there was a comment someone came up with last,

you know, one of the other shows don't have this. Yeah. I looked it up. That was a Saturday night

ritual that they had. So do you really think that they don't have everyone involved in this

family's got massive survivors guilt? Everyone's going to have the shirt I could have would have

maybe this if I did this differently. And the thing is at the end of the day, no, not necessarily

the guy that did it. It's always that choice. You know, you can always go back in all these cases

and you can think you can save the world. But no, if someone is determined to do,

told you the likelihood they're going to do it is pretty damn high. So don't blame yourself.

And that's the hardest. Yeah. Exactly. And that's the heart. Yeah. And that's the other thing

with the whole damn thing is right from the get go, this family had everybody looking at them.

And that just compounds on top of everything. Well, and right please, but that's why, you know,

I love what we do Tony because it's yeah, that's exactly what we'd look at first. Every single case,

you always start in the in the closed circle because that's where that's where all the averages come

in. That's typically where it is. And then you just expand out. But the first thing I did on this

case was everyone's like, oh, son-in-law, I looked at it this zero behavior arc that fits the

pattern zero, absolutely zero. Now granted, a lot of this stuff makes no sense in this case,

whatsoever. But that made the biggest no sense. The problem is we're in this culture where

people dig in without even having dug very deep, I think. And that's interesting. And maybe that's

a state of our world today where, you know, people used to dig it after they've they've had a

couple reps and they dug in a little bit, you know, and they got a good hole going. Now it's like,

I put the garden shovel in and I'm going to die on the garden shovel. It's like, what do you talk,

like you didn't even scratch the surface here? Dig a little bit deeper. You're going to find out

you're wrong. There's nothing here. But think critically and be curious. Think critically. And

oh, my God, be willing to change your mind. That's the thing. Yeah. I mean, I did not remember.

I did this on Friday because again, Jennifer was covered. Never was kind of do a little cheer

there because I said I moved from 60, 40 kind of dying to 50, 50 of who was targeted or what

was targeting at homes? Why? I got more data as you get more data and details in as intelligent

human beings. We shift our minds. We shift our perspectives. I because if you are emotional. So

here's the danger of all these things. If you start out emotionally attached to an outcome that

you want to happen, that you wish would happen or that you're seeking to have happened, you're now

going to only take in data that supports that outcome that you're seeking. If you're just curious

about, I wonder what happened, then you're able to kind of maneuver, take it all in, assess it,

run it through thought experiments, you run it through the law of averages, you run it through

probabilities, you run it through all these different things and you keep taking more data. And then

you you interrogate that data. It's like, all right, that doesn't make sense. Let me say or

or if I have a certain way of believing this, I'm going to try like hard to disprove what I

think. So this is what we do in this in this methodology of trying to understand what happened is

you take it in, you assess it, you become flexible to all of it. And then you see if the data drives

the outcome that you thought might happen or not. And then you just you roll. But yeah.

It's a lot easier to stay in the shallow end of the thinking pool because it doesn't require

as much work. You know, you got to be fun though. You got to swim. You got to you got to you got to

you got I mean, you're a swimmer. You know, you got to you got to paddle. You got to do some work

there. If you're going to go deeper in the pool. But so many folks, they don't want to put the work

and so they stay in the shallow end of the thinking pool. And that's the biggest thing with any case.

Get out of the shallow end of the thinking pool. You start there. That's where you enter the pool.

But keep going out and you're going to find a lot more. I saw somebody said, it's the shallow

thinking that becomes the norm. That's kind of right. That's where I just got to. Yeah.

Because it's easy. Yeah. But I'll tell you, it's so more satisfying. So here's what we do. I mean,

for Tony and I'll break that fourth wall right now, right? All weekend long, like in between shows

and stuff. Like we keep Tony does way more than his son. He should. He needs a life, right?

But you know, every time something, every time nothing comes up, my mind is thinking about

this stuff all the time. And also, I have this idea is like, oh my god. What about this? Right?

And I come up with one of these ideas that kind of that we haven't heard before, talked about before.

I'll then I'll then do deep dives. I'll interrogate that information. Then I get excited back

and forth to Tony because we are each other's loving critics. That makes sense. That makes sense.

And that's how we flush things out. You have an idea. Let's see if that idea actually makes sense

with what we see, what the research says and all these other past things. And I'm going to bounce

it off of a loving critic. And then if it's ready to present as a theory or as a hypothesis,

not theory as a hypothesis to get more people to weigh in on. And literally, we are working

the scientific method in a very unscientific area. Yeah, no. That's true. It's heartbreaking. I mean,

fortunately, there's really not a lot new to report on any of this. Savannah certainly brought up

some interesting pieces about the door and such. Let's talk on that real quick before we move to

the the doggers. Any other thoughts on that that we learned that the back patio door was

was open. Now we know because you add that with the other data we have of the guy in camera,

porch guy. We don't know if he opened the door. It looked like that was his next step and then

the camera footage stops. What's your thoughts on this back patio door being opened? I mean,

I guess I mean, one thought process would be did the camera stop recording and he didn't get

it open and he walked to the back of the house after that. You know, or with other people are

jumping to maybe there was more than one person involved. Maybe there was something in the back. I

mean, I didn't really add a lot. It adds a little more common sense of what I was expecting

because we had talked about this a lot that there's other easier ways getting inside of this house

rather than that front door. So I'm it just made me even more curious about what he was even

doing at the front door if they found out a way to go around the back and one or two people.

Yeah, I'm still in the world of a maybe on a lot of this. The only thing that swayed me a little

bit was the first impression of her brother, the the fighter pilot, that said it was definitely an

abduction. Only because first impressions that some people have will will add a little bit more

data. In other words, it made me more curious about what did he see? What made him say that?

But otherwise, yeah, back door is being propped open as I said or even just left open. I was

expecting that because there was no force entry and how'd they get in and other ways were much

easier. So it's about what I expected, but again, 41 minutes, that's the one that still can't

get over the time frame. And I think the big thing that people, they're conflating a lot of things

from Savannah's interview and putting it all in the same category or lane, if you will. There's

facts, there's data, and there's opinion. And Savannah expressed a variation of all of it. A fact

would be the door was open and the back. Okay, that's fact. That's that's okay. This is the data

the door was open. An opinion would be she believes that two of the ransom notes were legit.

We don't know the answer. That's her opinion. She's more than entitled to it than anyone else

on this planet. It doesn't make it a fact. And what I think a lot of people are doing is you're

saying everything she said's a fact. No, it's not. The ransom notes to me still, I don't think so.

I don't think so either. Until I see them, I don't have an yeah.

It was too easy for me to replicate something with a lot of detail based on older women in homes

with Apple Watches and footage pictures from other streaming sort. I mean, there's a lot of

things that could have been faked for detail. And as well as if the intent now granted,

if you're going to go down the taken for intent of ransom, it made no sense at all. So it doesn't

fit that pattern. Now, if you're going to do, you know, I know coffee and divers on the

retribution aspect of it. Yes. So if it was for retribution, I think that's a more plausible

theory than right now than for ransom because the ransom thing still doesn't make any sense with

the actions we saw. But okay, if we're going to do retribution, that means those letters

were bunk anyway. I still think the letters are just nothing but spear fishing. I really think

that just took advantage of the situation someone knew about. Yeah, I tell you more data.

I'm still flexible. Yeah, it's data. It's data that she said it. So it goes to opinion and data.

Okay, then we go from there and figure out, you know, but we can't cross into the world

of that being a fact yet. And I'm just saying to the audience out there, be careful on what you

are conflating as fact versus data versus opinion because they're all different things. They all

play roles in this, but they play different roles. And if you observe from the wrong ingredient

in the wrong slot, you might mess up the recipe. And especially since then Savannah put out,

hey, we just want her back. So if you actually had the body alive or dead and you wanted money,

you'd figure out a way. I did it. I used my AI and figured out how do I get in touch with Savannah

to figure out how to get money. It gave me five different ways. You're going to be investigated now.

Probably all my crazy searches on my AI forever. No kidding. Yeah, yeah, no, but yeah,

it's actually kind of neat. You know, my mind blocks me from doing certain things because I asked

it. I actually had to try to come up with a ransom note for for Savannah for Nancy. It wouldn't let me

come up with what I was able to do one for my own wife. That's good. We can't do it to

strangers, but your own wife here. Yes, I had to play my wife and do it. Oh, the choice of AI.

All right. You're thoughts in the comments section on substack and YouTube. Love for you

to weigh in. We do read them in your opinion matters. So please do weigh in there. One more case,

we're going to cover here today, the Duggers, yeah, holding the charges. We put a new podcast out

today too, by the way. If you want to just follow the Dugger saga, the Duggers counting the charges,

that's the graphic you'll find it wherever you get podcasts. The Duggers name was built on a

very specific promise that a family rooted in faith, structure, and absolute moral authority

was worth putting on television and holding up as a model. For years, it worked. Then the thing

started happening behind the scenes and that image started to change. Children who were victims,

parents who knew a system designed to keep all of it quiet. Now, another Duggers facing criminal

charges. His wife has been arrested and the family's response from some quarters is that this

is persecution. The one question nobody seems to answer. The one thing at the center of all of this

is whether anyone in that family ever actually chose the children first. That's a question. I want

to pose to you guys out there in the comments section. And you guys, please give us your questions

as we work through this unsubstack YouTube or wherever you're watching us. Robin Drake,

retired FBI special agency for the counterintelligence behavioral analysis program is with us. Josh is

in federal prison. Josh is faith or Joseph is facing charges. Jim Bob knew what Josh did and

handled it himself. Josh, no police, no real consequences until until there was. Is there any world

where he ever actually answers for that? Don is asking that via Facebook and if people are

already confused because everybody's name starts with a J. Josh is the one from a couple years ago.

He's the one who admitted to doing things with his sisters. His sisters have come out and said,

yes, he did that to us. And then he got busted for material on his computer as used car dealership.

CSAM material that some local investigators here have said is some of the worst stuff they've

ever seen involving a very young show. I mean, just disturbing as hell. And he he cordoned off his

hard drive. So nobody could find it because he already had a tracker on it because people are

already watching him. He's also had the Ashley Madison account. I mean, he's in prison now until

like 2032. That's Josh. Joseph now charged with doing inappropriate things with what would have

been at the time a nine year old and has since admitted to that allegedly with local police on the

line. He's now being extradited back to Florida. So is there a world in which we go back in time to

which Jim Bob ever faces any sort of consequences for not reporting Josh to police now that we've

kind of defined the roles here. I don't know. You know, it's going to come down to as the great

Bob modest says the prosecution. You know, do they have a prosecutor involved here kind of like

in the Adelson case where we're just going to go down one one domino at a time. I think I think

there's a I'm glad you started a whole podcast series on this because there's going to be more.

How could there not be more? You have two in one family all brought about because of a

a sect of a religion this and what was it and and and an IDLP IDLP which is really extreme. The

curious charge I'm curious whether this comes up in this with what Jim Bob may or may not get involved

with with others is trafficking because because again, I'm just looking at at the limited data we see

so Josh gets accused by his sisters or sisters reported to the dad that they were abused by him

when they were younger. The dad solution Jim Bob solution was not to inform law enforcement

but to handle internally. This is what the church did. This is their IDLP preaches. We handle it. You

know, we don't we don't rustle up the brethren or whatever he calls it. And so their solution is

send them to a work camp, handle that IDLP headquarters. Yeah. I wonder what he's learning there.

So again, it's just conjecture. So they kept everything as an organization in house. You got

a problem in house. And so if you start moving people from one state to another state,

that's a federal thing that that'll take charge. Yeah. And so I'm really curious were they

shuttling people back and forth because again, on the special that was the shiny happy people,

you have a few of the girls talking about how they were then abused at that headquarters once

they're shuttled there by the head of the whole organization. What was that? Yeah, not the

doggers, but yeah, there's acquisitions from other people who have victims. So it's part of

IBLP. So to me, we have a lot of potential for other cases, at least for investigation. That's

what we have potential for a lot of investigation. That's good way to put it. And I think it's important

to say I'm not accusing Jim Bob of abusing his children or doing anything like that. What the

crime here would be is being aware, being aware that there's abuse happening and not reporting it

and not doing anything about it until he's eventually kind of forced to because someone else is

buddy who's in that doc said, you know, by your own, you know, teachings here, by your own belief

system here, that you're running for Congress on and being all prim and proper and Jesus see on,

your son will be going to jail. In some cases, if you look at it even deeper, he'll be getting the

death penalty and because that is also part of what he, you know, campaigned on and believing is

that, you know, people who do this to children should face death. I happen to agree with Jim Bob

on that. And I said before, well, looks like you got some problems with your kids. You might be

having a few less. You're going to have to change that number back to 17 or something. But the thing

is, and that I think is a serious question because even if he's not doing anything, and again,

I'm not saying he had or did, he's never been charged with anything. So in no way am I saying

that, I know you're not saying that either. But what I, we're saying is, okay, if you have knowledge

of the crime, something this severe and you are essentially by not reporting it and abling it

because it's happening repeatedly as a pattern, that's a crime. Yeah, complicit. That is a crime.

I don't care what your religion says about it. I don't care what you feel about it. I don't care

what you think is better. I can't just create my own like, it's essentially like they create their

own country, if you will, with their own sets of laws and rules. And it's all controlled by

gother and god. And then whoever else is in the umbrella that day. And I'm sorry, that's not how

it works here in the US. You can't like kind of create your own judicial system because you're

not a legend. There's no world where it's like, well, you're supposed to go to court, but today

I'm going to go to Lutheran court and the Lutherans are going to judge me because my religion says

that their law is more important than the actual judicial law of the land. No, that's not how

that works. In fact, actually, the Bible talks about the exact opposite. The Bible talks about

give to Caesar what Caesar's. It talks about obeying the law of your land. So he's actually

violating that too, but it's so amazing how folks like this, they could so wrapped up into their

bullshit cult religion can kind of just pick and choose what they like when they like and then

apply it to whatever bullshit they want to do. You know, kind of going back to your earlier theme

on this, it was really kind of shocking to see how it all started and then how the shift from

being kids as the number one thing in the focus. I mean, that's the whole premise of IDLP is the

quiver of arrows of children being the blessings from God and all of a sudden, the biggest blessing

in his life became what he's making off of TLC. That took precedent over everything. And to

as anyone has children that you have a great healthy relationship with your kids, can you ever

imagine in any, any life span ever having the conversations and the vitriol he was having with his

second, his second oldest Jill, the oldest daughter about how he was withholding money from her,

about how he claimed the IRS he's paying her all these hundreds of thousands of dollars that she

never got and then guilty never into signing shit to sign it all away. So he could keep using her as

much as he wanted to rationalizing his behavior of this is just a ministry. I mean, just it was so

as a father of a daughter watching him listening to him and to think again, it's all according to Jill

and her memory. Yep. Yeah. Um, caveat with that about how he was treating his children with that kind

of disrespect. Um, and just just focus of self. I mean, just watching him focus so hard on himself

as years went on was heart-wrenching and heartbreaking. And then to the eventual, um, you know,

tart and you have one kid in prison and the others might be on his way there now. I think it's

going to be extremely telling. And I hope to God, the FBI is because obviously we got interstate

things going on here with Joseph. Um, and I, I mean, we know. I mean, they're looking at all the

digital devices, at least from Joseph and Kendra. Uh, and, and here's the thing. That shit

spiders out. So if we're going to start to see, uh, I got to know anybody, if there's text messages

on there or anything, some sort of communication between Joseph and Jim Bob or anybody, and sort

of anybody here. And there's knowledge of this that went on. There more, there's more people going

down. I would think so. Because first of all, you learn how to do this somewhere. So here's,

here's a, a great, well, it's a horrendous step, but here's a good step to know to understand

how these things work. For every one child that you've seen that was trafficked in some way,

or their images were traded, there's 400 others that are those network. And so, and so if he,

he learned this being Joseph, he learned this somewhere. Maybe you learned it from Josh, but Josh

learned it from somewhere. These two don't strike me as the type of individuals that, that would

shut up and not share. These look like blabbers that will do anything they can to get off to

throw someone else under the bus. And who they're going to throw under the bus? Other people that

taught them how to do this. Where to do this? And so where do you think that's going to go back to?

I'm interested. And I'm not saying it's Jim Bob by any means, but I don't think it's the father.

I don't think it is the organization. I think it's yeah. And you know, I what I'm wondering is if

is if even they are going to be surprised by what they find out by where these boys got this

or where this comes from. I don't know. I mean, I could, there is a window here where they

could turn this around. The ones who did not do this, but were so bamboozled and so drinking the

collate of their religion. Two of the girls have already done, I think what two or three,

the girls have already done this. They've already gotten out and they've already seen reality

for realities terms. The rest could do it. They could be, they could, if they really wanted to do

something good, Jim Bob and Michelle and everybody stand up and go, we were bamboozled too. We thought

this was the way to raise children. We thought this was great. Turns out this is an abomination of

the Bible. This is an abomination of Christianity and religion. And we fell for it. And unfortunately,

a lot of people have to and we're sorry we did. This is horrible, but, but let's expose it now.

Let's bring the people to justice because look how much it's damaged our family. Let's, let's

prevent this from happening to anybody else because I think there is a world where Michelle and Jim

Bob are genuinely shocked by these things and they can't figure out why it's happening,

why this keep this pattern going on with their kids. But they're so, they're so tempered down

into their, into the IBLP and their way of thinking and they've dug themselves so far deep in

that it's so unseeable, unfathomable to even get out. But I don't know if they're even capable

of getting out mentally, but there's a window to do it. And I'd highly suggest doing it.

Otherwise, I think the wrath of the evidence of reality is going to come down and it's going

to come down hard in a lot of people. I don't know who or where, but I would venture to say it's

going to be more folks in this ecosystem that have been part of this way of thinking and this way

of covering things up and handling everything privately. You know, anytime you have an organization

that is set up for secrecy, for not sharing information and from, and limiting and controlling,

controlling contact between people, controlling what people does and it's centered at the top with

one individual. I mean, it's a pyramid scheme. I mean, it's, yeah. And where else did we see this

happening to before, which kind of shocks you? It's Kevin Frankie, Ruby Frankie's husband. Yeah,

he kind of, he was sold into all this crap that she was spewing to. You know, it's just, it's,

when these things become your identity, you know, like Jim Bob and Michelle, when you are so entrenched

and this is your entire identity is your IDLP faith and your religion, it can do no wrong. Because

these doctrine that they set up and work from are non-correcting institutions. They don't learn

from past mistakes. They double down and say, well, it's the individual that made a mistake.

The institution organization is fine. So that's what's happened here. They're saying Josh was bad.

Joseph's bad. But the institution didn't know wrong. It's them. So they don't change the institution.

They double down on it and that's why there's going to be more. Yeah, it's like it's, it's not,

it's not the, it's the hamburgers fault for being overcooked. No, it's whoever cooked it. That's,

because it's common have two out of 19 turn like this. Yeah, exactly. Totally common. Oh my god.

Your odds are that high. Yeah, it's, and it's not just, it's not just, you know, we're, we're not

talking something, you know, like, like, like, like, didn't go to college or decided to become a plumber

or following the father's footsteps. All the things that, you know, can become systemic inside

families that follow in footsteps. But this, this is a rough one. This, I've never seen, again,

I've researched it. I don't think it's ever been another case where you had two sex abuse,

children, sex abusers as siblings in a same family. Yeah. I don't, I mean, maybe that's somewhere,

I'm sure they're probably, but, but to, to this level here, you know, that, that were,

that were marketed to the world as, you know, wholesome. And can I ask a more question? This is

the most important. Why the hell does Joseph look like an adult version of the Gerber, baby?

With the, with the hair, I mean, it's like, what's going on here? Why? Anyway, it's on this

in look of the religion. Yeah. We're just, we're just, look, we're just children of God.

I think that's kind of, yeah. Yeah. Your thoughts on the comments section on

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that out. All right. Until next time for Robyn and Todd, I'm Tony. We will talk again real soon.