Rocky

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2:12Hey everybody, welcome to the movie guide. I am Brendan Dendo of the 4FnK Discount Network joined right now by Guy Davis. Hey, the Dendo. And the little molten, how are you so? Hello there, I'm fine. Thank you. Now Guy, do you have the eye? Do I have the eye of the target? Well, it needs a little additional enhancement these days thanks to the specs. But yeah, the eye of the target. What are we talking about? Dendo is always telegrafting his punches, one might say. Let me just say one thing before we officially start, Guy. I distinctly remember a conversation with a friend who's in a business, movie business. He told me about it after I was going to hear a lot about named Sylvester Stallone. I said, there's never going to be a movie star at the first name Sylvester. It ain't going to happen. That was my major reaction. I was proven dead wrong. Leonard, we are glad you're a big enough man to admit your mistakes. I think more than a few was probably would have been an agreement with you.

3:13Sylvester is not necessarily the kind of name that you expect to see on a movie marquee. But someone has to break the mold, someone has to be the pioneer, someone has to be the tribal laser. And in this case, it was Sylvester Stallone, a man who has made a career out of a defying expectations. And it all really started with the movie we're going to talk about today, 1976 is Rocky. Why are we talking about it? Because like its title character, the Rocky target just won't stay down. It just keeps getting up to take another swing. There, Joanne, another movie about the making of Rocky. And the making of Stallone for that. Call I Play Rocky. Indeed, yes, this will be coming out by the end of the year. Yeah, the movie I Play Rocky. It's a biopic dramatizing Stallone's rise to bring his star making project to the screen the way he envisioned it. I got to admit, I'm really intrigued by it. I thought this is going to be a terrible cash grab. But good exercise in brand management by Stallone. But looking at it, it's like this looks really entertaining and really kind of fun.

4:16Stallone is such a singular presence in so many ways that it almost seems like a fool's errand for someone to try and portray him. But they found this young actor named Anthony Ipollito. He seems to be making a career out of playing American acting icons because not only is he playing Stallone in this movie, but his biggest role prior to this was playing Al Pacino in the TV miniseries the offer, which was about the making of the Godfather. Hopefully this guy's going to find a character to play that's not, yeah, that's something else because he's going to get typecast. But yeah, the Rocky saga, it just keeps going on and on. It's had many, many sequels over the years. It's had directors cuts Stallone, not long ago, got went into the editing bay and recut Rocky for. He made it a lot more the way that he actually envisioned it as opposed to the way it came out in the late in the mid 80s. It's got spin-offs like the like the Creed trilogy and it's got so many proposed prequels and sequels and spin-offs that are all in various stages of development.

5:17But it all began with this. It all began with one man and his dream. And I think that knowing that story, knowing that he was a hundred to one shot or a million to one shot as a screenwriter and as an actor, it spilled over into the audience response to the movie itself. You can't always separate art from the artist. Stallone's story parallels Rocky's story. And I think that's why it would otherwise be considered a beam movie script from the 1940s played so well in the 1970s and continues to play well. Absolutely, yeah. I mean revisiting this 50 years on from its first release. It still plays just as well. I mean, it is slow and detailed in the way that a lot of 1970s movies are. But it also, I don't know, it feels like it really set the tone for how movies would be in the later half of the 70s and the 80s moving forward. It's such a stirring and moving and get up and go under dog story.

6:20It's almost got the best of both worlds. It feels very gritty and very street-level and very real but also very aspirational. And it became a global phenomenon as a result. Absolutely. And you wonder how they could have done a Rocky II. Govlon and Rocky II II IV V. How do you turn the sky into an underdog again? But they did it and we bought it again and again and again. And then Creed, a parallel track, they've done it again. Can you kill it with a stick? Well, it's funny. I want to talk about how all of the Rocky movies, they all, I mean, you talked about how the underdog story of Rocky the character parallels the underdog story of Stallone the artist. And that's very much the case. But I think if you look at all the Rocky movies, it's Stallone talking about where he is in his career and where he is as an artist. I mean, Rocky II is very much him saying, can I pull this off again? Am I just a one hit wonder? Am I just a fluke?

7:21Then you've got Rocky III, which has the character of Rocky hitting the heights of success and wondering how we can maintain that. If he still has the hunger to keep creating art or in Rocky's case, stay in the ring and keep taking the punches and actually succeed. Rocky IV, I think, is about Stallone wrestling with this notion that has become this all American icon because by that time, you know, Rocky was this character that presidents were talking about or, you know, Ron Reagan, I think was sort of talking about global politics in relation to Stallone's characters. Rocky IV is perhaps Stallone thinking, is my career on the way and how would I deal with that? And then the sixth movie, Rocky Belbow, is I know a summation of all of that him looking back at what things are done and realizing I still have something to give. I'm not done just quite yet. I think, yeah, I mean, I think it's a really interesting way to look at these movies that could just be seen about a slugger getting into the ring and, you know, trading punches with, with yet another opponent. Was there a genuine excitement when there was news of a new Rocky film coming out when they were originally released?

8:26Yeah, there was. Each one had a new actor and a new character. Who's Rocky going to fight this time? Who's going to play that guy? I think that was the tease that got people interested and excited. Yeah, I mean, Rocky is an easy character to cheer for. He's an easy character to cheer on. But I think the movies themselves really rise and fall based on the opponent. And Stallone's been very, very smart in casting very large and live personalities to appear alongside him to get into the ring and trade blows with her. It's Mr. T and Rocky 3. I really watch Rocky 3 the other night. Mr. T is really quite incredible in it. I mean, not the most polished actor. He's more a personality than an actor. But club of lang is just the wrong guy to mess with. And he puts that across so well. You feel genuinely scared for Rocky getting into the ring with this guy. And then likewise, Dr. Goin, Rocky 4, I mean, casting Dolph Lunggren, who was unknown at that stage. I think he worked as a bodyguard and maybe boyfriend to Grace Jones. I think he might have been a dormant at Studio 54 or something like that.

9:32But just this incredible physical specimen, almost the absolute embodiment of scientific made muscle. It's really, it's one of the reasons that Rocky 5 doesn't work because they don't give him a strong opponent. But yeah, I think that's that's very much the case. You also can't forget Hulk Hogan. You cannot forget Hulk Hogan. Thunderlips. Who can get thunderlips? No, would we? But look, this is more about about Stallone and more about the character of Rocky than anything else. Everyone has seen Rocky, but quick. A brief synopsis. Rocky Balboa is a small town, small time heavyweight box. He's scraping together a living as a debt collector for a gangster when he's not making a few bucks in low rent fights. And she'll have to fill it out here in Philadelphia. Correct. Philadelphia is much a character as as any of the people in this movie. Rockies, fortunes change however. When the world heavyweight champion Apollo Creed needs an opponent for a title fight and he offers a shot to the Italian stallion. Creed thinks it's going to be a little more than an exhibition match and Rocky knows he can't win, but he wants to go the distance. He wants to last all 15 rounds.

10:33That'll be a real victory for the fighter that no one ever believed in. How can you not be into a story like that? I mean, it's, it's aspirational, but it's also realistic. I love that Rocky is like, yeah, I can't beat this guy. I'm not that good a fighter. But if I can go 15 rounds and stay standing in the end, something that no one's ever done, I'll know there's more to me than everyone else is saying. There's more. Yeah, I'm not the loser to everybody thinks I'm that's a great story. And I think that's that's something that everyone can can relate to in some ways. Yeah, absolutely. And there's the parallel story of his girlfriend. Yeah. And a very strange brother. Very strange is a polite way of putting a little. Yeah, pull these up piece of crap. He's garbage that man. I don't get Paul. I never did. But I like purchase meritorious performance as the price fight manager. Very gritty performance from a wonderful and versatile actor. That's correct. And then Ty Eshire as Adrian is just right. Mousy would be a minimal way of describing. Sure. When we first encounter her as the pet shop and she doesn't suddenly take off her eyeglasses become a reading beauty. But she gains confidence.

11:47Rocky instills confidence in her. That's the thing. Yeah. I mean, Rocky's not the only character who changes and grows throughout this story. I mean, everyone is lifted up by being in Rocky's orbit. Whether it's Burgess Meredith, Mickey, who's glory days of behind him or whether it's Adrian who seems resigned to this lesser life, you know, being in the shadow of this belligerent brother of hers. But Rocky believes himself and he believes in the people around him and they are all uplifters as a result, which I think that's why people respond to the character Rocky. And they responded this story so much. I mean, something I thought rewatching this is there's no real villain in Rocky. If there's a villain, it's self doubt and that's not believing yourself. And if you can overcome that, you know, then your dreams can come true. It's really fantastic in that regard. Under the heading of show, don't tell the first time he goes up that steep set of steps in Philadelphia, it's as a museum. You feel his pain. I mean, you can feel how tough it is to do what he's doing.

12:51And contrast that with the later reprise of the same action. And it's sure fire. It's audience fruit. Oh, yeah, no one cannot respond. You have to be dead from the neck up not to respond to that. With the bell hot music. Oh, of course. Yeah, which is to use your favorite word iconic. It really is. The Rocky theme is as pivotal the success of Rocky as anything that Stallone does on screen or at the typewriter. Yeah, but I was thinking about it. I mean, America really needed a win when Rocky came out in the mid 70s. I mean, the country's gone through years of political and economic and social turmoil. So I mean, I think you need an underdog story about this lovable loser who grabs his perhaps last chance at glory and he changes his life for the better through drive and determination. I think a lot of viewers saw themselves in Rocky. And I think they still do. I mean, there's footage of this day. You're talking about those stairs at the Philadelphia Museum of Art.

13:52There's footage of this day of people jogging up those stairs and doing the. Oh, sure. Doing the champion pose at the top. I think that speaks volumes about what this movie says to people. I certainly know that when I saw it back in 1976 and I was just a kid. I mean, I was just like like a literal child. I walked out of a going. Not that I wanted to be a fighter and thing like that, but I started running around the block. I wanted to be like Rocky. I was like, you know, this guy can if this guy can do it, anyone can do it. Yeah, even a seven year old kid from Jolong. Right. Well, he's the ultimate every man, isn't he? Yeah, very, very much so. And it's funny watching Stallone at this period of his career as an actor as well. I mean, he wasn't unknown. He'd had roles in a fair few movies. You know, some B movies for Roger Coleman. I think he had a like a very small bit part in like a Woody Allen movie. And he was one of the leads in a movie called the Lords of Flatbush. Opposite Henry Winkler. So he was not no one's idea of a star. And indeed, you know, when he wrote this script and sold it to United Artists, they wanted anyone but Stallone in the lead. They thought it was ridiculous that he would play Rocky, which is the whole the whole conceit of this I play Rocky movie that's coming up.

15:07You know, they're talking about people like Bronson, like Eastwood, like James Khan, even people like Robert Redford, but no Stallone was adamant. He's like, no, no, it's me. This man was few credentials to back him up, turned down an enormous amount of money for it is original screenplay. And sucks was gone. He said, is it I get to start this movie or it doesn't get me. I'm not sure. And this is a guy who was so flat broke that he had to sell his dog. The dog that appears on the movie is his actual dog. Was that decision because he knew he was the man for the role or was because he also wanted to be a star. Oh, I think he realized that yeah, it's both. But I think he realized this is my golden opportunity. Yeah. No one's ever going to give me a part like this. I have to create one for myself. And if they want to give it to someone else and then no, they can't have it. There's a really interesting story that I discovered about Rocky. Apparently during all the two and fro with the script, it made its way to the television network ABC.

16:09They were going to repurpose it as a vehicle for Henry Winkler, who was of course the funds at that time. And it was also Stallone's co star in that movie, the Lords of Flatwish. It came very, very close to getting made that way. And Stallone went to Winkler and basically begged. He said, this is my one shot. This is this is the role that was that I made for myself. And Winkler to his credit said, okay, sell it back to Stallone. He went to the network and said sell it back to Stallone for, you know, the amount that you paid for it. And he had enough cloud because he was the funds to say, if you don't do this, then there's no more happy days. And then there's a really smooth move on Henry Winkler's part. Well done. You mentioned before, Leonard, how this is very much an old-fashioned script in a lot of ways. Feels like it could have been made in the 40s or something like that. There's a bit of a B picture. This is a screenplay that the screenplay win. It didn't win best screenwriting Oscar did it. It did win best picture, however. Yeah, but. Yes, it's it. You've got a lot of people who sing the praises of the Rocky screenplay, not just because it is a real sort of uplifting motivational underdog story.

17:11Just it's really well done. I mean, William Goldman is probably one of the most famous and well regarded screenwriters. He's a huge fan of it and said, I don't know the proper definition definition of a screenplay, but it might be anything you can come up with to involve an audience in any way you can. And I think Rocky does that all the way through. There were so many great character beats and great great storyline moments that really get you on Rocky side. Some of them were repandering, but some of them are genuinely earned, I think. Well, I just watched it after 50 years. Oh, wow. Ha after 50 years, I watch the start to finish my wife and I was just taking an end completely taking an invite will be being manipulated sure, but to our pleasure. Manipulation is not easy. Not everyone can pull it off. No, I want to talk about car withers. Why was car withers not a superstar? Why was he not a list? It's an injustice, I tell you. He plays Apollo Creed in this movie and he is fantastic. He's so good. He's just right. Yeah, yeah, just great. Not the first choice for the role. Not a boxer apparently, but they wanted a real life boxing and Ken Norton to play the lead. But car withers got it. I'm glad they did because.

18:19Yeah, there's just great acting work from here. Of course he knows of physicalities in fantastic shape. And he's got great chemistry with Stallone as well. I mean, we see that in the later movies. There's not so much of it here. But yeah, I was just a big, big fan of what of what car withers does in this and didn't just about everything. Yeah, he was a fantastic actor in a terrific screen presence. But I want to give Shannastatou supporting actors in this movie who don't have a lot to do, but do a lot with it. I think because this movie is studded with the kind of faces you don't really see in movies anymore. Real character actors. And there's a guy named Thayard David. He plays the fire promoter, Jürgen. He's a guy who he's sort of working alongside Apollo. He wants to put on a good show. He wants to make as much money as he can, of course. And yeah, when he's got the, when the idea comes at you're going to put this guy who's essentially Muhammad Ali up against there's nobody. He's like, oh, this is a people just going to be flocking to see this, but he develops a genuine respect for Rocky's courage and determination along the way. And it's just played very, very subtly, but I thought it was done so well.

19:24Yeah, no, he makes an impression. Well, he was a big man. He makes a big impression. Certainly does. Certainly does. And there's a guy that I like a lot. He's a legendary B movie star named Joe Spinell. He's been in so many movies that, yeah, and he's got the kind of face that you can't miss. Yeah, countless movies. Some better than others. He's in the Godfather part too. He's also in the Grownhouse Classic maniac. He plays a gazo the gangster who is Rocky's employer. Essentially, he's the one who tells Rocky to break a thumb or two if this guy is, you know, late with his loan shark repayments, but he's got a real sauce spot for Rocky. And yeah, there's a bit of a bit of a bit of a support, bit of a bit of a corner man. I don't know. We used to have character actors that faces dammit. And Rocky's full of characters like that. I think it's and one of the reasons the movie works, but it really works primarily because it's still own. He was doing wonderful work in Tulsa Kings. He's playing playing himself. He's just so long. We think he is sure he may not really be, but it works.

20:28Well, that's I mean, people poke fun. It's alone for either what they consider limited acting range or the way he carries himself. I think the man is probably one of the best examples of brand management in Hollywood history. I mean, you don't stick around for 50 years if you don't have something going for you. And I mean, he's work consistently throughout that time and been a star in pretty much every every decade since he came to prominence. But it's funny watching the trailer for Rocky. They're working overtime, first of all to introduce you to to slide, but also to place him in the pantheon of legitimate actors and legitimate sort of method actors of that time. I mean, the writers saying people are calling Silvestre Sloan the new Brando, the new De Niro, the new Puccino. I was like, I don't think we're quite there yet, but you also see in his performance that that's the kind of actor that he wants to be, but with his own putting his own spin on his own physical spin on it. It's really interesting to watch. Are you up for a lightning round Leonard? Do you do you feel like you could rank the Rocky movies? No. Oh boy. I invite you to do something. I'll give it a try.

21:35I think you've got to go with the original. I think I think one is at one. I'm going to go Rocky three for the second place. I find it incredibly entertaining. It's a tie between Rocky two and Rocky four for third place. Rocky Barbar, a lot of people liked it. They thought it was a bit of a return to form and a nice sort of mellow coda to the series. So yeah. I'm not as huge a fan of it as I'll put it there, but Rocky five definitely belongs in the basement. It's no good. Even though director John G. Abelson did come back, I think it's sort of misspegotten from the jump. Yeah. So not that great. And the Creed movies are their own thing. The Creed movies are marvellous. I don't we talked about Creed much on the, I don't think we've overgiven them their own episode. Have we done that? Perhaps we should. Very, very good indeed. I had a wonderful night at my class at USC, Karen Los Angeles. Ryan Cougler took my class. He's a USC cinema grad. And he continues to work with people that he met us when he was a student. So we had nine people on stage after the screening of the film. And I introduced them one by one, Luke with Garenson, his composer, a Sebo Hanging in his producing partner. And so that's just salon.

22:42Oh, and I saved him for last, obviously trying to be a showman like and it worked. The place went mad. The crowd roared. He was everything I could have hoped for. Really he forgave you for that bad review. You gave rhinestone back in the day. Yeah. He just has a false memory. That's all. Well, he's really good in Creed. Sure is. He gives a really legitimately good performance. I can understand why he seemed legitimately put out when he was not given the Oscar that year. I think the Mark Rylans for Bridge of Spies won best supporting actor at the Oscars that year. I think everyone thought that it was still owns to lose. I think it was really shame that he didn't I think it would have been a great cap on a remarkable career. Toyota's easy choice sales event is on whether you're looking for the performance of the camera, the versatility of her at four, the efficiency of a Corolla or all electric driving in the BZ. There's a Toyota that's just right for you and with great deals across the lineup now's the time to find yours. But hurry, these deals won't last long. Toyota's easy choice sales event and soon. We make it easy Toyota. Let's go places.

23:57With the Amax Gold Card, you can earn five times points on prepaid hotels booked online through Amax Travel, which means five times points on the solos day or a sweep for the whole crew. Plus earn three times points on flights booked the same way. That's three times points for touching down in new cities or revisiting places that keep calling you back. Learn more and apply for the Amax Gold Card today at American Express dot com slash explore dash gold terms apply. Double feature time. Would you like to pair the original Rocky with anything? I don't think you want another sports movie. You want something different. What is hanging out? Well, there are a few. And I mean, I want to stay on the Stallone track. There's a movie he made in the late 90s called Copland. A really terrific on some piece about a town that's basically populated by corrupt cops from New York City. This is a new small New Jersey town.

24:59West alone is the sheriff regarded as a cross between a mascot and a joke by the quote and quite real cops. But when the crime is committed Stallone is the one who actually got a risk body and soul to solve it. I think he viewed this as an opportunity to show no, I'm capable of legitimately good acting. And you know, he's up against people like De Niro and Kytel and Ray Leotter, all of whom are giving fantastic performances. And Stallone acquits himself so well in it. I think it's a, it's a really intriguing look at the path that was possibly not taken by Stallone. So yeah, that's certainly one. No, not necessarily a double feature, but what's a film that you feel like if you love Rocky, you may also enjoy this. So you don't have to watch them back to back. But what is a film that you would also enjoy if you enjoy Rocky? I've spoken about this movie a lot. It's one that I wholeheartedly recommend to anyone who enjoys a good under the story. It's a movie called Warrior from 2010. It's got a mixed martial art sort of milieu about it, but it's about two brothers who are both fighters, one played by Australia's own Joel Edgerton, one played by Tom Hardy.

26:04They've got a very complicated relationship with them, between themselves and with their father played my Nick Nolte. It's very much in the Rocky vein. I think it's really character driven. It's got great uplift. I mean, it's going to make you want to run around the block or maybe try and get in the octagon and go a few rounds. Fantastic performances and just incredibly moving. It's one of the top five male weepies when they I can't watch the n-scene without tearing up. It's so, so good. Warrior. And Leonard, you mentioned that asked a loan came to your class earlier. Did you ever deal with him during your time at AT? Did you do any press for him for the Rocky films or any of these other successful films? I interviewed him for daylight and I have signed the public script of Rocky. Oh, yeah. And he was, he was very geneal. He's a talk to. He seems someone who's very aware of his public persona. Oh, duh, duh. Yeah. Yeah. She's a documentary. He made it by themselves. I did. Yeah. And again, this is called Sligh. It's on Netflix.

27:09It's one of those ones that feels kind of authorized. He's revealing just enough, but not too much. Right. I think I came away from thinking I don't know as. Any more about Silvestis Lennon, he wants me to know. And that's his prerogative, man. But I mean, yeah, there was stuff in there about say his relationship with his son, I think it passed away at that time, which I found really quite moving. And a lot of that is bled through into the Rocky moves because I think, yeah, as I said, the character of Rocky and the character of Silvestis Lennon are very sort of closely intertwined. But there's also a lot of other stuff that I think you didn't really go as deep into that as I thought you might. But he's got a book coming out as well. I think Stallone's very much entered his elder statesman era, what with what with I play Rocky, but he's got a memoir coming out called the steps, which sort of seems part autobiography and part self-help manifesto. I think it's going to be pretty interesting to read that. I think he's a very, very smart guy who it's easy to underrate, but I think sometimes he is also very accurately rated, shall we say.

28:11Do you think Rocky is one of the most motivational, if not the most motivational movie character of all time? Oh God, yeah, 100%. Right, right up there. Yeah, yeah, I mean, this is a guy who comes from nothing and becomes the champion of the world, not purely by belief in himself, but also the belief that he has in people around him, and that is reflected back to him. I think it's a really powerful and positive lesson. As I said, you look at those people running up the steps of that museum and Philadelphia, they all want to be Rocky, or they all see themselves in Rocky. I think no, it's a it's a good question, Dan. I think that's, yeah, 100% the case. All right, everybody, hope you enjoyed that review there of Rocky and the Rocky franchise. Don't forget you can support the show on Patreon to get early and add free access to this show as well as access to exclusive reviews as well on our Patreon channel. Please continue to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you do find this show. Check us five stars with the Libris and FeeCombs, that would be much appreciated. And please continue to get in touch with Leonard and Guy. It is the movie guide podcast at gmail.com, keep sending all your messages and questions through and we'll answer them in an upcoming edition of the Molten Mailbag.

29:17But for now, Guy, thanks for joining us. You're a dandelion, we did it. Thank you, they landed Molten. That's through it. And we'll catch you all in the next episode of the movie guide with Molten and Davis. Y'all!