Rozina Ali Traces Islamophobia’s Long Shadow

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1:02FX's adults follows five roommates living in New York, leaning on each other to navigate love, work, friendship, and family, while tackling pressing questions of your 20s like, what if the person who inherited your fake ID is cooler than you ever were? Why does being around your family make you regress into your worst self? And how do you tell your roommates that you have other friends? FX's adults all episodes now streaming on Hula. Welcome to Forum. I'm Meena Kim. Andy Muslim-Brederick has been intensifying in the US. And basic religious practices have been treated as security threats. Texas Governor Greg Abbott in May threatened to pull funding from a city for a private EAD celebration. And late last year said the Council on American Islamic Relations was a foreign terrorist group under Texas law. Yesterday, House Speaker Mike Johnson used their religious insult to explain the US's struggle to end the war in Iran. The Iranian simply cannot be trusted.

2:02They'll sit at a negotiation table and say something. They'll walk away and do the opposite. For some of them, it's apparently part of their religion that they can just lie to someone to disagree with. In a new book, Rosina Ali looks at the rise and persistence of Islamophobia, especially since 9-11, when she was growing up in California, Sandwalking Valley. Her book is called Seasons of Fury. And Rosina, welcome to Forum. Thank you so much for having me and really excited to be here. Well, we really appreciate you being here. You were a teenager in the Sandwalking Valley on 9-11. And your father sat you down. What was his warning to you, Rosina? So I remember going to actually watching the news coverage of the attacks that morning before I went to school. And I still didn't understand what had happened, but I knew that my parents were scared.

3:02I had never seen them so worried. And when I returned home, he sat me down that evening and told me if anyone asks, tell them that you're Hindu, that you're not Muslim. And I should mention that at that time, in the small town we were living in, my family was one of two or three Muslim families living in that entire town. Yeah. And you say that you had not seen that kind of fear in your family before, but you did feel that he was maybe overreacting? Yes. So, you know, just to give a bit of context, my family at that time, we had been living in the United States for about 11 years. But we still weren't permanent residents of the US. So that application was still pending. And I think because we had an precarious immigration status

4:02and because we weren't particularly wealthy, we were actually quite poor at that time. My parents were felt to me that they were always worried. And so to me, even though they had never seemed as scared as they were that day, I just chalked it up to being them being perhaps, you know, the same level of worry that I had seen them before. And I think they just, to me, I thought they didn't understand American values or understand the American government system the way I did. And did you have faith in that system at that time, would you say? That was so much. I really, really became enamored by the Kennedys and specifically RFK. I really became enamored with the Civil Rights Movement. I really had wanted to work at the White House. And I truly believed that what my father was telling me was silly

5:04and paranoid because I thought this is a country that believes in freedom of speech but more importantly freedom of religion. And there is no way I would need to hide my religion in this country. Yeah. And if you thought he was overreacting by saying, don't tell me when you're Muslim, what did you think when your parents would often say the walls have ears? What were they talking about there? Oh, they were so worried that someone was listening. And by someone they meant the government or even neighbors who would see us with suspicion. And I kind of laughed at that because in our household they told us don't say the name George W. Bush, even though he was the president of the United States, don't say the name Osama bin Laden, even though every American was talking about bin Laden during that time. And I think what they were really truly worried about was that someone would misinterpret what we were saying

6:07and think that we were, that we should be under suspicion. And truthfully, I thought they were being paranoid but when I started reporting this book, I realized that almost every Muslim family spoke with had the same mantra the walls have ears. Everyone was afraid about speaking and being surveilled. And what was that like for you to realize that? That this was a fear that was common among Muslim households across the country. You know, by the time I was reporting it out, I had, I mean, I was an adult at that time and I had accepted and understood that there was mass surveillance. But I didn't quite appreciate just how deep that fear went. And it was basically all the fears that my parents had was basically legitimized when I started reporting and hearing these stories.

7:07And I felt truly heartbroken. I felt really sad that we were living in a country during a time when ostensibly we had moved beyond Coantal Pro and really embraced civil rights for everyone ostensibly. I felt that there was a portion of the American population that felt too scared to say anything. Yeah, you write about how around the country some boys dropped Muhammad from their names well, men shaved their beards or even kids spent less time playing outside just as a way to be less visible. And your book seasons of theory is called seasons of theory for families and the rise of Islamophobia in America. And you trace the rise in persistence of Islamophobia through the lives of families. And one of the families you profile are the Omar's. And what I found particularly moving about their story was they experienced harassment

8:08but also from a neighbor which I think is also particularly destabilizing if it's right in your community. But can you tell us about them and in particular their daughter Rehom and how she experienced the rise of Islamophobia post 9-11 as well? Yes. So the Omar's are a family who moved to a home in the suburbs of outside a city in the US. And the reason I'm not being very detailed and specific about which city is because they're actually a pseudonymous family. And one of the reasons they had asked to remain pseudonymous is because they're still terrified of this neighbor. So they moved into a house, their first house, which they had saved up for. And this happened to be in September 2001. They were very active in the community. And one day their neighbor visited them.

9:09And Rehom, who's the daughter of the family, she was 11 at the time. And she remembers her mother walking away from that meeting with the neighbor so distraught and anxious because that neighbor basically came up to the mother who was named Janet in the book and said to her, you're being too visible. And Janet is a white Midwestern woman who converted to Islam and she wore a hijab. And this neighbor basically told her to remove the hijab and not be so visibly Muslim. And that was the beginning of basically almost two decades of a harassment that this family underwent by the hands of this neighbor. And when I heard the story when I met Rehom, I was astonished by the level of terror that they were living under.

10:09And I think it was so important for me to include their story in this book because for so long when we think about the terror that Americans faced at the time, we think about that coming from the hands of militant groups or potential Islamic radicals. But Muslims were facing a double terror. There was that threat of militant groups attacking the US. There was also the threat of what their neighbors or what their acquaintances might do. And it could manifest sometimes in daily harassment as it did with the Omar's and it could sometimes manifest violently as it did with unfortunate cases that I document in the book. Yeah. I want to invite listeners into the conversation. Let's just what do you remember about anti-Muslim sentiment after 9-11? And have you experienced the rise of harassment and discrimination against Muslims?

11:09Have you over felt you needed to hide or downplay your background or religion to feel safe or accepted here? You can tell us by emailing forum at kqed.org, finding us on Discord, Blue Sky, Facebook or Instagram at kqed.org, or by calling 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786. Sadly, it isn't hard to draw parallels in history when people are singled out for their ethnicity or identity, you know, or religion, a mid-hate or hysteria, that you write in your book, there has been little reckoning of what took place in the US over the last several decades. This book is an attempt to reclaim a bit of that history. In broad terms, what do you think we have not reckoned over and what do you think has been the reason behind the lack of reckoning in particular with Islamophobia? I don't think we have actually reckoned with just how destructive the post 9-11 policies were on Muslim Americans.

12:14Really, what we did after 9-11 was conduct mass arrests of immigrant Muslims. We imposed a registry in which tens and thousands of Muslims had to register with the government. We ended up deporting a lot of people who had built lives for many, many years in the United States. We really destroyed families, but we also created a narrative and a sense of not just narrative, but also policies and rhetoric that kept isolating and othering Muslims in this country. There was always this conditionality placed on Muslims in the US over the years after 9-11, which was, if you are a good Muslim, you get to stay in this country. If you are a Muslim that is going to help us fight the warren terror, you get to stay.

13:15I was quite astonished. I was really astonished when I was interviewing senior officials and former prosecutors about this time, which was that they recognized that this was a terrible thing that civil rights had been violated, but they thought they were necessary. I really realized that no, we haven't really reckoned with what happened and how Muslims have been affected. We're talking about how Muslims have been affected and what has really happened to all of us after 9-11. Stay with us. This is Forum. I'm Meena Kim. A dark night, a quiet house, but inside danger was lurking. Oh, not really. We have Xfinity Shield, so we're not worried. What if protecting your home and devices could be drama-free? Xfinity. Imagine that. Restrictions apply, not available in all areas.

14:16Support for Forum comes from Genentech, the original biotech company. For over 50 years, Genentech has redefined what is possible by challenging the status quo. They have helped drive more than 40 breakthroughs across various diseases, including multiple sclerosis, cancer, vision loss, and food allergies. But their greatest breakthroughs are the ones patients feel, whether it's getting back to familiar routines or creating new ones. Learn more about Genentech's many breakthroughs at gene.com. That's g-e-n-e.com. Welcome back to Forum. I'm Meena Kim. We're talking this hour about the rise of Islamophobia in the US. The experience of American Muslims in the aftermath of the 9-11 attacks, the legacy of the domestic war on terror has impacts now. Rosina Ali has traced that in her new book through the stories of four families called Seasons of Fury, four families in the rise of Islamophobia in America. And you are listeners if you remember the anti-Muslim sentiment after 9-11 or experience it directly and want to share your story.

15:22You can do so by calling 866-733-6786-866-733-6786. At the email address forum at kqed.org on our social channels, Discord, Blue Sky, Facebook, or Instagram, or at kqed. forum. Maybe you have felt you needed to hide or downplay your background or religion to feel safe and accepted. And also, listeners, what parallels do you draw between what happened then and what's happening now, the domestic war on terror and how we're treating particular groups today? Before the break, you were talking about how some of the people that you talked to felt some of the steps were necessary. As a journalist, was there anything that came out of the war on terror with regard to looking at issues within our country internally that you do feel were defensible? Rosina Ali that were defensible? Yeah. Yes, I mean, I do appreciate that it was such a difficult and uncertain time.

16:25It was truly a terrifying time if listeners recall. I mean, I think it's been so long that sometimes we don't really remember the emotions of that day. But it was such an uncertain time and I do understand and appreciate just how quickly and effectively the government went to work and trying to find potential terrorists. But I do think just looking back at the policies, I find them really difficult to defend not just as policies because they're discriminatory but also because they weren't necessarily effective. And we've seen that in history over and over again, right? We have seen master valence of the black community and leftists under Coantella Pro. We have seen master valence and imprisonment under the red scare.

17:29And of course the McCarthy era and then of course the internment of Japanese. And something similar but perhaps a bit more sophisticated was happening after 9-11 in the sense that the FBI and the police department, I should say across the country, really went into Muslim communities with the intent and mission of finding potential threats. But a lot of times their basis of suspicion was that someone was Muslim rather than someone having actually a criminal background or a reason for a law enforcement to be suspicious of someone. And I think that remained that was immediately indefensible but also just remained such a flawed policy because it required so many resources to basically rake through these communities and neighborhoods. But ultimately what ended up happening is the government built a hammer and it just found nails where it could.

18:34So in the sense that it really because it was in search of potential threats, it was looking at Muslim neighborhoods thinking who was saying something that we don't agree with, who was saying something that is potentially violent or against you as a threat. And it was against you as foreign policy area against the US government and let's hone in on that person. And what we saw happening was that people were getting swept up in terrorism cases but also being put on no flylists and being surveilled. Yeah, you say that one of the problems with the war on terror was that there was, it sort of thrived in ambiguity where your words write, no real definition of a terrorist. Exactly. I think one of the biggest problems with how we dealt with the post-911 period was basically how we started this war on terror which was by declaring it a global war on terror.

19:38The problem was that no one at the time could actually define what terrorism was. The enemy was so ill-defined that it could become anything and that's what happened. We were not in a war against al-Qaeda that's not with the Bush administration declared they did not declare a war against Iraq and Afghanistan specifically. They declared a global war on terror which meant that couldn't compass almost any militant group that the US disagreed with, any government that the US disagreed with and also elements within the US that the US government disagreed with. And what we saw happening over the next 25 years after 911 was that understanding of a terrorism is just kept getting so broad that it could become anyone that you find morally objectionable or politically objectionable. Unfortunately, that's what we're seeing today as Donald Trump has decided actually quite officially that the left and liberals are considered domestic terrorists.

20:51Let me go to color, Mohammed in South San Francisco. Mohammed, join us. You're on. Yes, thank you. Yes, I'm actually just a little bit you know, I'm either the South San Francisco, the Bay Area for all I think 36 years already 2001. I remember pretty well. I was working at one of the hospitals. I'm not sure if I'm really a seat to medical center. I was actually a graveyard supervisor over there when the incident happened. And then when it happened, one of my coworkers saw that and asked me, Hey, you guys just did that like we guys that you're going to change your name because my name is Mohammed. Are you going to change your name? I'm like, we guys said, I'm a Muslim American. What do I have to do with those guys that did that? They hurt our people too. We Americans. And then in a couple of days, my wife was scared. She was a hijab. This is the Bay Area. She was even scared to go to the supermarket.

21:59But you know, there was a Japanese neighborhood. I live in a condominium that came up to my door and knocked on my door and said, you know, I haven't seen your wife in a couple of days. You know, she needs to go to the supermarket or something. I can take her. I was so, I mean, it was like a really. I mean, she was so nice. I asked enough. If my wife can come, she knows our neighbor neighbor. So she's not going to the supermarket to take the case or the supermarket. But she hasn't seen them. So she says, she's not going to go and say, you know, if you guys are scared, I can take you. Why? You know, I was just surprised. And I know a lot of people, Muslims were changing their, I know a couple more. It's changed their name to order to John, Michael. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not changing my name. My name is Mohammed. I'm an American Muslim. I have nothing to do with those idiots that did that. They hurt my own people too.

23:01Mohammed, I worked with. I knew I was not a friend. I told them right away. No one ever stopped me again. So that's just the comments. I really appreciate you sharing that comment, Mohammed, sharing that story with us. And of course, so familiar to you Rosina, as you wrote this and also through your own experience that you observed. Yeah. And you know, just thank you to that caller for calling in. I was really taken aback and pleasantly surprised that when I was reporting this, I realized that one of the first groups of people to come to Muslims aid after 9-11 were Japanese Americans. It was the Japanese community. And specifically in California, a lot of the Japanese groups and activists actually joined protests when Muslims were made to register by the US government. And they protested and they said, you know, this is harking back to a really dark time in history that we recognize all too well.

24:06And I think it really says a lot that many people didn't want revenge against Muslims. A lot of Americans understood that this felt a bit too familiar to what we have done before. You know, one of the things I was also very surprised to learn when I was doing my research was I was actually trying to learn about how the Japanese internment was captured while it was happening in order to inform how I would write this book because I was very curious about that coverage and how it had been justified. And I was really shocked to learn that as far as I could tell, there was no long form or no magazine piece about Japanese internment while it was happening. And I realized that it's only been so much later that we've actually reckoned with that part of our history. So it doesn't necessarily surprise me that we have not quite reckoned with the post 9-11 history just yet.

25:09Yeah. Could you also talk about something else that Mohammed's comment touches on, which is the conflation of all Muslims as terrorists, right? And how that came to be because I was struck by your description about how, you know, training, right, of FBI and other law enforcement officials, which, you know, on the face of it look like education ended up really strengthening and intensifying that conflation. Absolutely. So there was a lot going on after 9-11 and even in the 90s, which was that a lot of Americans and certainly a lot of government officials and law enforcement didn't really understand Islam. I should say Islam has always been a part of America's history, but there wasn't a real in-depth understanding of what Islam taught and what Muslims believed in.

26:09And so what happened after 9-11 was that there was a lot of trainings that happened for FBI agents and for police officers. Except a lot of those trainings were really simplified, almost mutated explanations of what Islam was and what it believed in. And there were sometimes outright racist. So there was a training that was done for, I believe, in California for police officers and FBI agents and California and around the nation. That stated that Arabs have a tribal mind. Arab Muslims think in very tribal violent terms. They're not as sophisticated as the Western mind. These are the kinds of trainings that law enforcement was receiving in the 2000s. And I was shocked by not just the level of racism, but also just how widespread these trainings were and how for how many years they continued and they continued even through the Obama administration.

27:18And it is, there was such a disconnect between what the administrations were telling us. I think many of us remember that after 9-11 the Bush administration, George W. Bush famously said Islam is a religion of peace. Muslims are not our enemies. Except the policies that his administration enacted kept reinforcing the message that Muslims are a group that we need to be suspicious of, that this religion teaches radicalism. There is something inherently radical about this religion. That is the message that was spread through policies, through law enforcement, through questioning. And I think it was really hard to believe in George W. Bush's message when people were visited by FBI agents who asked them what mosque do you go to? How do you pray? How many times do you pray?

28:18Because at the end of the day, what does that tell anyone about their connections to terrorism? Let me go to call Brian and Emoryville next. Brian, go ahead. You're on. Yeah, my response to this was and I still is. I went to two local mosques, not too long ago. Last one was in Alameda. And I just anonymously pinned a note to the front door after hours. They said, I'm an atheist. I live in the community and I will have your back. If bad stuff starts coming for you, I will have your back. And that's something simple thing that we can do to let people know that are in these communities that are being harassed and attacked. There are Americans among us that are, you know, will not stand for this. I thought it was important that it be anonymous so it doesn't become about me.

29:29The message is, you know, leave notes, leave anonymous notes. I think people will read that and they'll be only little but they will be made to feel like they are welcome and they have support here. Brian, thank you for sharing your comment with us. Another listener, Rosanna, right? So many times in my life, I have not wanted people to know that I am Jewish. In front of me, people have said really horrible, bigoted, stereotypical things. And I never say I'm Jewish and I am ashamed of myself. Yeah, your thoughts at all, Rosanna, either of those comments that we just heard from Brian or Rosanna. Well, I want to say it really breaks my heart that someone can, you know, present themselves as the religion they are and Rosanna, I'm sorry that you've had to go through that and I don't think you should feel ashamed. I do, of course, understand the sentiment is so well. And Brian, I wanted to thank you for that because I think even something as, you know, something as a little as leaving a note makes a big difference. It really shows Muslims that we are part of the community.

30:47One of the, I obviously found really, really harrowing stories when I was reporting this, but one of the things that also gave me hope was how many Americans stood up for Muslims after 9-11? There was one scene, there was one town that I write about in, it's a suburb outside of Chicago called Bridge View and right after 9-11, the day after, there was a group of about 200, 300 people who stood up for Muslims after 9-11. And then I started marching towards the mosque in the suburb. They were wielding bats, they had weapons, they were chanting death to the Arabs. It was, it was a really scary time for a lot of the Muslim families living around the mosque. And this group was marching towards them and the word spread and immediately police came cord and off the area to protect the Muslims and volunteers came, not just Muslims, but Christians and Jews and anyone from this surrounding communities came and formed a ring around the community so to keep the Muslims safe.

31:58And I find that so beautiful, but also just a reminder that our country contains multitudes, right? We're not all bad. And I think we have to remember that there are elements of this country that want us to be better. I am struck by how we are talking a lot about, yeah, just remembering, you know, the struggles and the intense Islamophobia, you know, I so remember, you know, the stories of people going and lives lost, right? It convened sorts of gas, I mean, it was such a harrowing time. Eloise writes projection overtakes people in times of crisis. But I, after the break, we're coming up on one in just a minute, I do want to talk with you about how you feel things are now, right? How Islamophobia is manifesting today and how hopeful you feel about some of the actions that brought you hope as you're researching this for the voices that rose up against the Islamophobia back then.

33:05Again, we're talking with Rosina Ali. Rosina is a contributing writer for the New York Times magazine and has written seasons of fury for families and the rise of Islamophobia in America. And we're asking your listeners to share what you remember about anti-Muslim sentiment after 9-11. If you experienced it directly or ever felt the need to hide or downplay your background or religion to feel safer accepted as Rosina's family did. And parallels you draw between the domestic war on terror then and how we're treating groups today. The email address forum at kqed.org, Discord, Blue Sky, Facebook or Instagram. We're at kqed forum. Call us at 866-733-6786. More after the break, I'm Meena Kim. Support for forum comes from San Francisco Opera. This fall experienced the bold retelling of one of history's most captivating figures in Mary Queen of Scots. 118-year-old Mary Stewart returns to Scotland for the first time since childhood. She finds herself amidst a treacherous political landscape. As she tries to rule her divided country, she must work to outmaneuver one betrayal after the next in this acclaimed opera by composer Thea Musgrave.

34:16On stage September 20th through October 4th, sfopra.com. A dark night, a quiet house, but inside danger was lurking. Oh, not really. We have Xfinity Shield, so we're not worried. What if protecting your home and devices could be drama-free? Xfinity. Imagine that. Restrictions apply not available in all areas. You're listening to forum. I'm Meena Kim. We're talking this hour about the experience of Muslim Americans and the aftermath of the 9-11 attacks and its legacy, how it impacts us now. And also efforts to counter it. Does Rosina shares in her book Seasons of Fury, Four Families and the Rise of Islamophobia in America. And you, our listeners, are joining the conversation at 866-733-6786 on our social channels and add our email address for them at kqd.org. And Dendran on Discord writes, my daughter was in high school in the early 2000s and had a Pakistani friend. People would shove an insultor in the crowded halls between classes. Her groups of friends tried to keep her surrounded to escort their friend from class to class.

35:22This went on for months. There has been a documented increase in hate crimes against Muslim Americans, by care and other organizations. Rosina, and how would you say Islamophobia manifests today? Is it more politically, even more politically explicit? Then, I guess, in the intervening period between 9-11 and now. It is. I have to say, I mean, I have been astonished by the level of anti-Muslim sentiment that I hear and see today. I, and as someone who wrote an entire book about it, I really feel like we're... We are living in an age in which it is becoming acceptable to say that Muslims are not Americans. And that Islam is not a part of the United States.

36:25And that really shocks me because we are essentially saying we do not believe in the freedom of religion in this country. It's really shaking the basic tenets of what this country was founded on. And, you know, one of the big differences between what's happening now and what happened after 9-11 is that one, there was so much rageful and revengeful reactions to the United States. To the 9-11 attacks, people were angry. There was a lot of hate crimes. There was violence. Obviously, the response from the government was one of suspicion and surveillance. But people were still largely unclear or uncertain about what Islam is and what Muslims believe in. 25 years later, we live in a society in which people say they know exactly what Islam is.

37:29And they say they know exactly what Muslims believe in and what Islam espouses. And one of the things that I found when I was doing this research is that one would think that anti-Muslim sentiment rises when there is a terrorist attack or any sort of national security. And that's not the case. It actually rises every time there's an election. And what I found is that Islamophobia is becoming a feature of American politics today, where anti-Muslim sentiment is invoked over and over again when it becomes useful for politicians or certain interest groups to promote anti-Muslim rhetoric. And how is it useful as a distraction? Certainly as a distraction, certainly to scare voters and we're seeing that now, in Michigan with Adil al-Sahid's race, it is so interesting to me that a lot of the rhetoric around him that has been anti-...

38:35Sorry, that has been Islamophobic, has centered around what are his potential affiliations. There have been so many reports and talking points that suggest that his family is affiliated with the Muslim Brotherhood or with terrorists. And it's such a familiar talking point. That has been the talking point regarding Muslims for a very long time, but that it's being used against a US citizen who was born and raised in Michigan, who has now standing up and running for a seat in Senate, that it can be used against someone like him, really shows that we don't think any Muslim is a good Muslim. And I mean, I remember this is unfortunately not new. I think we have this tendency to say this is because of the Trump period or because of this happened really after Trump, but I recall in 2010, there was a huge national debate about a mosque, plans for actually an Islamic center that was supposed to be built in Lower Manhattan.

39:45And it was called the Ground Zero Mosque. And it led to national outcry and the efforts against it were led by Islamophobes and anti-Muslim hate groups, but they were very successful in capturing the national debate to the point where policy makers on both sides of the aisle started criticizing the idea and really distancing themselves from the idea. And it became a huge talking point in those midterm elections. And that was a time when Muslims weren't even running for office at that time. Yeah. The other thing that you note and it's quite stark, right? But you also say that there were, yes, absolutely both sides, the Ground Zero Mosque. I remember Democrats and Republicans coming out against such a thing. But you say something interesting, which is you say there were limits to how far the governments crack down reached in the days after the 9-11 attacks because there were limits to what the American people would accept.

40:52But since that time, preserving national security with all its corresponding definitions has become a more entrenched priority and our scope and appetite for brutality has widened. And the question that I say as stark as you ask, what is our capacity for destroying lives now? Do you think it's worse? Yes. And I hate to say that, but I do. I think one of the things that has happened after in these past 25 years is that there has been a rationalization of anti-Muslim sentiment. Islamophobia is justified through the lens of national security, but it has also made us into a country that believes that we are in a clash of civilizations, that we are living a, we are in the middle of a religious war, where it's the Western civilization versus Islam.

41:54And I don't say this as a matter of rhetoric. In fact, one of the things that we're seeing in Texas right now is that Governor Greg Abbott has suggested that he might pass or he might encourage passing a law that outlaws Islam, that basically deems it a political organization rather than a religion. I shudder to think about what that means. What are the repercussions of that? Does that mean that they're going to shut down mosques in Texas where there is a huge Muslim community? Does that mean that Muslims can live there, but they're not allowed to be religious, visibly religious? What does it mean for someone to live in this country and practice their faith? That's ultimately the question that hangs above us when it comes to thinking about the Muslim population in this country. I was, you quoted the quote from my book and I asked several former government officials that it was such a scary time after 9-11.

43:06Why was internment not a possibility? It was internment even discussed, internment of Muslims. And several officials said, well, that would have been terrible. The American population would not agree with it. We are living at a time when the American population largely is okay with mass detention of their neighbors and community members in immigration detention. And this is not a sudden shift, but it is a shift that has been brewing and encouraged for the last three decades. And I think we just have to take a really honest look at where we are as a country. To your point earlier about how people are expressing themselves as experts on Islam, politicians, but this is Mr. Blames right wing media.

44:06Jean writes, right wing media has totally changed the way the average American thinks about Muslims. They take people out of context to meet their narrative regularly. They may have heard someone say something about for instance, Sharia law. Next thing you know, they are claiming that Muslims want to convert all Americans to Sharia law. Let me go to color Helen and Berkeley. Helen, you're on. Go ahead. Thank you. Yes, I do agree that right wing media and right wing politicians are centered this. I just wanted to say I so identified with your author. I was a high school teacher at the time of 9-11 and that very morning one of my students came into class. She was from Egypt. She kept telling everyone I am a question. I am a question. I was so naive. I like your author. I couldn't imagine why she would be saying that. I quickly learned.

45:06And soon after that, I and a friend who was a professor at Occidental and who with me belonged to a liberal Christian church in Southern California. We put together a group which continues to gather in wonderful ways including people from the Islamic center of Los Angeles and the Pasadena Temple, Pasadena synagogue and that Christian church. It was all Saint St. St. Pasadena and it's a wonderful group that looks for the joy and the spirit of all three religions. It's something that now that I live in Berkeley, I am hoping to help going in my own church in Kensington actually. I would also like to say that I had lived in Morocco and had such respect for the Muslim and Morocco and also for Jews I have known.

46:15I just see no reason whatsoever for people of religion to fight each other. That's all I have to say. Well, Helen, thank you for sharing where you are. And let me remind listeners you are listening to forum. I mean a Kim. Another listener writes on blue sky my recollection is that the chief victims of 9-11 hate crimes were turbine wearing six. It was our government that metaphorically beat up Muslims and Michael and San Francisco says today the proliferation of anti Muslim postings on social media as an epidemic of hate being fed by rhetoric from the White House and the speaker of the House. I recall sick people being murdered when they were mistakenly taken for being Muslim. The other thing that you point to I want to broaden it just a little bit is just how some of the policies that came out of this period that our listeners are recounting right of fear and hysteria and so on have now been used and you touched on this to stifle political descent.

47:17You know, we've seen the crackdown on pro-Palestinian protesters, but also on ice protesters. And I think you were noting that earlier. Can you talk a little bit about how material support for terrorism, something that emerged. Actually, I think this was pre even 9-11, but just part of the growth in Islamophobia ended up resulting in such harsh sentences for people who were protesting ice. Yes, I'm really glad that you brought that up. So basically in the 90s, in mid 90s under the Clinton administration, Congress passed a law called material support for terrorism law, which essentially criminalized any support for foreign terrorist organization or any support for terrorist activity. The problem was that what material support meant was so broad. It could be anything. Similarly, what we meant by terrorism was also really broad and vague.

48:19After 9-11, prosecutors used this law against Muslim defendants over and over again. It was pretty easy to prove that someone was supporting a foreign terrorist organization because that support could mean sending some money to a charity that was run by Hamas, for example. Or it could mean even storing raincoats in a closet that eventually ended up in Afghanistan. And unfortunately, people were convicted as terrorists for doing that, offering that kind of support, even if there was no act of violence. And that law was used so many times against Muslim defendants. And we are seeing that same law be used now against anti-ice protesters. One of the first cases of this was against a group of ICE activists in Prairieland, Texas, who were eventually charged with and convicted of material support for terrorism.

49:32And they now face minimum 50 years and at least one of them, 100 years in prison. And that is allowed because a terrorism conviction automatically enhances someone's sentencing. And that is a policy that was reinforced and encouraged after 9-11 and has never been really challenged or reformed in Congress. You end the book, you know, also talking about how Mamdani's election is mayor offers sort of a great example I think of the juxtaposition you talk about that America can be right. You can both be an entity that can try to other and even make the existence and presence of certain groups of people in this country far more vulnerable and unsafe.

50:37And at the same time can elect a mayor of New York City, right? A Muslim mayor of New York City. I wonder first what that election meant to you, but also you know where you are right now and in what you think what side of America can win out. Well, I cried election night. It was such a joyous, incredible moment because I truly did not think I would ever see a Muslim, a young Muslim mayor who was not just Muslim but quite progressive. I think that it was just going to be a matter of time when Muslims started to rise up in the political circles and you know in the political world in the US because Muslims are part of the American fabric. They are part of American society and that fills me with a lot of hope. I you know one of the things that I walked away with when I was when I finished my book, I realized that so much had happened after 9-11 that we chose to do so many terrible decisions we made along the way that encouraged Islamophobia.

51:57But I also thought, but those are choices that we made and we can make different choices. And I think ultimately that's what gives me hope is that this is not inevitable. We are not faded to go down this route where we decide that Muslims do not belong in our country. We can actually choose to resist those talking points. And I think I am both worried but also in some ways excited to see what the next few years will hold. A couple of final comments from our listeners. Rachel writes, I'm deeply moved by Rosina's heartfelt interview. I remember it well in Witness, Muslim fear and even profiling at the airport soon after. This fear is now rising amidst the Jewish community as we are attacked for what's happening between Israel and Gaza. It was my prayer and work then to build bridges and even more so today. May we all keep finding our way to deeper truths, more compassionate honesty and stronger bonds in this very challenging time. Michael writes, thank you for the conversation. This is exactly why our nation's founder has fought so hard for freedom of religion and freedom of worship.

52:59This was not abstract for them. They saw the danger of pure 10th theocracy in their own time. They knew what they knew what they were doing and we have to back them up. Rosina Ali, the book is seasons of fury. Thank you so much for being with us. Thank you so much for having me. And thank you listeners for sharing difficult stories, heartfelt insights. And my thanks as well as Susie Britton for producing this segment. You've been listening to Forum. I'm Meena Kim. Funds for the production of forum are provided by the Generosity Foundation and the members of KQED. This episode is brought to you by ChatGPT. Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the Bill Simmons podcast. Have you guys heard about ChatGPT work? It's the new way to use ChatGPT for bigger multi-step projects. And when you need more than just answers, you've chatGPT work, access to your apps and files and it can create real work documents like spreadsheets, slides and structured reports.

54:03Get started at chatGPT.com by selecting work mode available on plus and pro plants. Support for forum comes from San Francisco Opera. On the very day, Simone Bucanegra is elected as leader of the Republic of Genoa, tragedy strikes. His beloved dies and their infant daughter vanishes. Now 25 years later, Bucanegra has a chance to reunite with his daughter while he works to bring stability to a fractured republic. This fall, dive into a world of political intrigue and familial reconciliation with Verdi Simone Bucanegra, September 12 through 27, SF Opera.com. Did you know that mosquitoes have killed almost half of all people who have ever lived? Today, people are fighting back. With support from the Gates Foundation, American scientists and partners around the world have developed a new generation of bed nets that can kill up to 90% of mosquitoes exposed to them, helping cut malaria rates in half. The result? A safer, healthier future for everyone. The Gates Foundation, partners of human potential, search gatesfoundation.org slash mosquito to learn more.