S13, Ep 7: PGA Tour Stories, Golf Industry Insights & Callaway Chrome Tour Technology with Rich Katz & Jenn Whaley

Welcome to Next on the Tea with Chris Mascarro, the show where you get the

inside access to the best minds in the game. Each week Chris has the privilege of

chatting with top instructors, legendary players, course architects, and industry

insiders. If you're looking to improve your game, gain a new perspective or

just hear some incredible golf stories, you're indeed in the right place.

You see Chris, let me tell you something I haven't spoken to a fresh man in my

life that is knowledgeable, seriously, as you are. Never. You do such a great job,

it kind of makes me feel good all of a sudden. You do so much for the game,

you're so kind to all of us that are out there in the game. You know, we need more

people like you in the game ago. Thank you for pressing play. Now grab your clubs,

step up to the tea and let's get started. This is Next on the Tea. Hi folks and

welcome into this edition of Next on the Tea where golf legends live in your

game gets better. I'm your host Chris Mascarro and I am so glad that you press

play and you're a part of this week's show. I've got two wonderful guests that I

can't wait to share with you. One is a legend in the golf industry. He's done so

much from representing tour players to founding a legendary company. The other is

a legend in the making. Her enthusiasm, positive demeanor, competitive spirit,

have all built an incredible foundation. She is well on the way to being a

huge success. I know you're gonna agree with me when you hear her segment. So who

are these two people? Well, you know what? The first one is Rich Cat. Rich is one

of the most wonderful and supportive people that you'll ever meet. He has been a

great supporter of this show. Very kind to me over the years. He spent over 30

years representing PGA tour players. He is the founder of the Buffalo agency which

is a division of Billy Casper golf. Rich and Billy were very close friends over

the years. You're gonna hear some of those stories. During other parts of our

conversation, Rich shares the thoughts that he has on the tremendous growth that

we've been seeing in the number of people playing golf, particularly since the

pandemic. He tells us about some of the up-and-coming companies in the game

that he spent some time with at the most recent PGA Merchandise show plus the

enhancements that AI is making within our game. You'll understand why I say he's

a legend when he joins me here and just a moment. Following him is a great young

woman who I know is gonna do amazing things over the course of her career

because she's already done some great things to this point and that's Gen

Whaley. If our last name sounds familiar, it should. She's the daughter of one of

my all-time favorite guests, Suzy Whaley. Now, Gen is the senior product manager of

golf balls for Callaway Golf. During our time together, Gen tells us what's

new with the Chrome tour golf balls for 2026 and about the technology and the

faster ball speeds that they've been able to create. You'll hear things about

like cross-seam and inseam and why they matter. They're fun creative styles on

the cover of their golf balls that they're putting out plus that you can

customize it by the way. Plus the Eli Callaway Performance Center and what

it's like there. Then we get into the explosion of women coming into our game

since 2019. Now look, Gen is just so wonderful. She's positive, enthusiastic,

energetic. Those are Whaley family traits. I'm excited that she's back in a part

of the show. I know you're gonna love her. So folks, I got a great show in

store for you. Thank you again for pressing play and being a part of it

with me. Sit back, relax. Let us take your mind off everything else going on

in your life for the next hour or so. Folks, one quick thing before we get started,

you know how important the podcast algorithms are. Wherever you're listening,

if you would take just literally a couple of seconds to subscribe to the show

and leave a rating. Those two quick things make all the difference with

getting this show in front of more people on this platform. I really appreciate

it and I really appreciate you. Okay, you know, I like to get things started

shouting out the wonderful people that helped to sponsor this show, starting with

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next on the tea with me is Rich Katz. You guys hear me talking about having a

large dose of vitamin G for gratitude all the time. I'm grateful to be able to do

this show. I'm grateful for you for pressing play and grateful for the

wonderful guests that join me each and every week. I am doubly grateful for

Rich Katz. Rich is one of the great people to get to meet in the golf industry.

He's been a wonderful supporter of the show over the years and a great

counsel to me as well. He always keeps tabs on what's going on with the show.

He's always there with a helping hand or a kind word and when those things come

from a giant in our industry humbling isn't strong enough as a word for it.

If you're not familiar with Rich's background let me hit some highlights for

you. Going back to the late 1980s Rich was the vice president of

marketing for corporate sports battle and ESPN. He spent over 28 years as

the senior vice president of pinnacle enterprises managing and representing

PGA tour players in 2001. He founded the Buffalo Agency a division of Billy

Casper golf. He's now leading his own strategy and consulting organization

catch strategy helping organizations with marketing public relations and

content strategy. He is one of the kindest and most generous individuals that

you'll ever meet and I am grateful to have him back with me again today here on

next on the tee. Hi Rich thanks for coming back on the show. All right now back in

next on the tee with me is Rich Katz. You guys hear me talking about having a

large dose of vitamin G for gratitude all the time. I'm grateful to be able to

do this show. I'm grateful for you for pressing play and grateful for the

wonderful guests that join me each and every week. I am doubly grateful for Rich

Katz. Rich is one of the great people to get to meet in the golf industry. He's

been a wonderful supporter of the show over the years and a great counsel to me

as well. He always keeps tabs on what's going on with the show. He's always

there with a helping hand or a kind word and when those things come from a

giant in our industry humbling isn't strong enough as a word for it. If you're

not familiar with Rich's background let me hit some highlights for you. Going

back to the late 1980s Rich was the vice president of marketing for corporate

sports battle and ESPN. He spent over 28 years as the senior vice president of

pinnacle enterprises managing and representing PGA tour players. In 2001 he

founded the Buffalo Agency a division of Billy Casper Golf. He's now leading

his own strategy in consulting organization Katz strategy helping

organizations with marketing public relations and content strategy. He is one of

the kindest and most generous individuals that you'll ever meet and I'm

grateful to have him back with me again today here on next on the tee. Hi Rich

thanks for coming back on the show. I appreciate the kind words Chris the

pleasure's all mine. Look forward to having the conversation for the next I

don't know however long it lasts. I appreciate that. Rich I don't think there's

anyone that's more plugged into the golf industry than you are and at a high

level I wanted to get you thoughts. What do you think the state of the golf

industry is right now? It is amazing and I think it'll continue to be

amazing. Chris you probably remember throwing it out there 10 12 years ago

maybe even sooner pre-pant right before the pandemic. There were headlines all

over the place golf rest in peace with the tombstone I mean it was it was in

bad shape rounds were down horses were closing at a much more rapid pace than

opening there was deferred maintenance with respect to courses built in Tiger

Woods heyday and that heyday was 1986 to 2005 and COVID brought a correction

like no other it's a shame that it had to take a pandemic to do so but you

know America and the world were relegated to be in indoors and golf was the only

place the only social space where that can be social distancing and that's

continued since the pandemic rounds of golf played at US courses climbed to

another all-time high in 2025 it's it it really just extends the most

sustained periods of elevated play that golf has ever seen so for the six

consecutive year Americans played more than half a billion rounds nationally

that's unmatched in golf history which is I can't tell you how rewarding it is to

be part of an industry that has made such a wonderful comeback the beauty of

it is Chris that the stickiness is there so if we look at you know those golfers

who have started in this game during the pandemic after one year or shall I say

one year after hitting their first ball ever 80% of those new to the game stay

with the game and 75% of those enjoy golf two years after their first

experience so again we haven't realized such an influx of golfers since Tiger

Woods heyday and it's done wonders for the industry it's done wonders for the

socialization of America it's just it's done wonders for golf course owners and

operators who finally have the cash to reinvest in projects capital projects

that it's deferred for so long so you know I'm one of these guys Chris and we've

known each other a while I don't know if you know this about me I'm one of

these guys that the check is rubber until it clears the bank I can really really

optimistic that this trend is going to continue with self assurance rich you

mentioned the word socialization and I just recorded an interview and it'll

come out after after this one but I spent some time with former Kansas City

chief wide receiver Eddie Kenneson and Eddie talked about how he and his

12-year-old son have started to go out to play at places like top golf they

they enjoy getting out there it's a it's a more social environment there's a

lot of things you can do you can eat and drink and play and have some fun at

places like top golf but that then transitioned them out to the golf course

and now they're starting to play golf that way it's interesting to me the

profound impact that places like top golf and similar places along those lines

have brought people into the game that never would have done it and to your

point now they're transitioning to out there playing so they fit their first

golf ball perhaps at a top golf but now that has transitioned them out to a

traditional golf course and we're keeping those players I just think that's

wonderful it is it is you know for for better or worse the novelty of top golf

it's kind of wearing off we've all read about that however it's offset by the

entry of God knows how many indoor golf facilities with simulators there are

lounges popping up left and right and that's really a positive sign because it

makes golf year-round in areas where it's just way too frigid to play for six

months out of the year so it's it's got this socialization like no other and

it kind of levels the playing field that you don't really need to be that good

of a golfer to enjoy your experience and what I really like about golf today

and a top golf had a lot to do with ushering this in is there's a relaxation of

golf today more than yesterday there are rules on behavior and attire it's t-shirts

and jeans and that type of conduct is deemed acceptable nowadays there's

Bluetooth speakers out there stuffiness unless it's the creme de la creme of

private clubs the five percent or shall we say clubs are getting younger and a

lot of that Chris like like you intimated as due to top golf and that is is just

wonderful there are zip lines there's paint and drink nights there are full

slates of programming for young professionals and family and then there's the

influx of technology it's easier to book a t-time there's a company called

Notify that's the open table or Rezzi of golf t-times it's hot young and old

golfers even yes I don't forgot how old you are but I'm getting up there even

we're taking to technology technology to improve our game AI technology to

improve our game AI to improve the time you have before during and after

round we are in at a pinnacle of the experience economy with all these

injections of technology to make our games better and more enjoyable and

therefore we play more frequently again it's a wonderful time to be in golf

and I've been through this cyclical tiger woods to expensive recession and

now it's roaring like tiger did back in the day it's pretty darn cool it really is

and you mentioned simulators and that's another thing the prices of

simulators are coming down people are putting those in their basements they're

enjoying those kinds of things with their as a family and with the kids neighbors

are getting together to have simulator rounds of golf together and those

simulators can double as a as a movie theater kind of projector you can do a

lot of things play video games on them I think that's another thing that is

really starting to draw people into our game as well my shout out to my friends

over at Unicorn for what they're doing I think that's another thing that is

gonna continue to get cheaper and cheaper over the years and allow more and

more people to do that in their homes oh 100% and you see clubs that were just

begging for business pre-pandemic now have weightless I call it the

neighboring effect people want to stay closer to home have their social group

closer to home and that's the cause and effect of the pandemic and you know

you know Chris you know I you know you we watched the president speech last night

you know with all that's going on around the world you know we have a world

that's right with conflict there's negativity and uncertainty golf is

converting you know this we'll call it proverbial or actual misery into

company spending time with friends spending time with family around activities

like golf I mean they're hitting high water marks at historical levels it's a

sense of belonging in a world that's made up of funny funny creatures finally

we have an outlet for like-minded enjoyment rich at the top of the game at the

professional level kind of wanted to get your thoughts because as our PGA and

LPGA professionals are growing the game as more people are coming into it we're

developing such high-level players and I talk to college coaches and and guys

that are working and ladies that are working with the tops as they're making

their way up through the ranks of the PGA and the LPGA tours so much great

talent is out there but I kind of feel like the PGA tours losing its way a little

bit want to get your thoughts because as we are growing more and more talented

players all of a sudden now we hear fewer tour cards no Monday qualifiers you

know smaller coming up next is one of the bright young stars in our game Jen

Whaley before I bring Jen into the show I want to give a shout out to our friends

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that's the number two you and dr dot com and save up to 20% fields all of that

sort of thing and and I kind of scratch my head at a time when we have such

great talent in our game why are we giving them fewer opportunities to achieve

their dreams and to get out there on the PGA tour I just don't understand

where the mantra has been grow the game and they're doing that but it seems

like at the highest levels we're kind of lopping some of that off I believe

that the leadership of the tours is more focused on unification of the

tours with the entry of live golf and the entry of TGL it's bifurcated and to

spend more time on trying to figure out and jockey for which players play which

tour it could very well be taking its toll on focused operations and how do we

bring back the glory days right now with live and with the PGA tour it's

incredibly diluted so it used to be a one-stop PGA tour we'll call it monopoly

and I don't mean that in a pejorative way but now many of the best players

don't show up every week on major networks so everyone's trying to find

its way and I believe it's short-changing those golfers who used to have a

singular path to start them and lots of playing opportunities in a structured

way I think the eye has been taken off the ball and it's a shame there's more

money in golf now live has proven that and I again I believe focus needs to

be on the players rather than you know kind of beating each other over the

head to see who's got the greater flex so those are my thoughts you know back

in the in the heyday it was very structured and now even I in golf all day

every day often struggle because my attention is focused on too many tours

that I can't really get into only one and simplify my life meaning the PGA tour

of yesterday because I have distractions of you know from other tours

Rich I want to take a couple of the things you just talked there a little bit

further first you talked about how we have a lot of top players not showing up

every week out on the networks and not on the different PGA tour tournaments we

have a classic example this week the cognizant classic used to be the Honda right

we've only got eight of the top 50 players that are going to be in the field

this week now that certainly gives opportunities to others to do well and to

make a name for themselves but at a time when Honda drop being a sponsor and

cognizant comes in I'm not sure if I'm the CMO of cognizant how happy I am

right now to see that the majority of the big name players I think Shane

Lowry might be the the top-ranking player in the field that doesn't feel very

good if I'm a sponsor of the tour right now money is the root of all good and

money is the root of all evil Chris I ask you would you play in 30 tour

events when you could make the same money you used to when you played in 30

tour events in 15 tour events now play 15 yep get the live players they're

only playing 15 the money is so big that at some point you say I value time at

home I value time with my family value time with my friends close to my home why

would I get on a plane to pay to play anything but the majors and those golf

courses that I really really enjoy yeah great point I think that's spot on

and the other thing that you talked about Rich is because there are so many

tours looking out into the future how do you feel about where the PGA tour

where live golf is the DP World Tour do you think those things ever kind of

come together it feels to me like live is doing a great job out there

internationally and we can ignore it here in the States because of all how we

feel about the Saudis and politics and all of that and we can hate all of that

but when you look at how they did out in Australia at the Adelaide tournament

how they've done and the crowds that they've drawn over the years it's been

amazing I almost feel like live in in DP or are a better marriage than live in

the PGA tour I don't know what are your thoughts where do you see it going I

don't know usually I have a strong opinion one way or the other but since

quasi-retiring I haven't been in those rooms I do think that live enjoys more of

a global field week by week and therefore they have a greater international

appeal when they go to Australia or they go to Singapore or wherever they go

in this year and remember there's only one PGA tour Australia doesn't have one

it has an Australian tour Australia Asian tour which is strong but nothing's

like the PGA tour so live is going to have more competition here than anywhere

else and hence that's why we're getting these crowds in Australia and plus

the tour has been so rooted here in North America that it's really tough for

someone to overthrow the PGA tour as live is experiencing right now that it

should rely on a global circuit more than just the U.S. because there is much

less competition at the level of John Rom and Dustin Johnson Ham Smith and

others rich switching gears a little bit I had the privilege of spending some

time with you at the PGA merchant I show this year it's always one of the

highlights there when I get those few minutes with you I I wanted to kind of

get your thoughts this year's show felt bigger and more jam packed to me than in

the past what what are your thoughts about what you saw this year at the show it

was fabulous now again I revert back to Tiger Woods days and even going back to

my first show in 1991 those shows back in the days believe it or not Chris were

probably four times the size of what it is today maybe three times the size of

what it is today that's before Asia or Japan rather had its own show China had

its own show Europe got much bigger and people were saying why am I coming to

the PGA show when it's too big for me and I don't have to travel that far so

flash forward when that transformation happened the show was down down down down

down and now with the rise in participatory golf the rise in technology usage in

golf not just by golfers but by golf course owners and operators it's coming

back with a roar you know Sherry Major we love Sherry Major who runs the media

center there one of the key indicators is media attendance media attendance

was up significantly last this year rather to the point where it's been the

best in about ten twelve years according to Sherry and that's a wonderful

sign there's a lot of smarts coming into golf and that's that was bound to

happen because a lot of really smart people on the business side follow trends

and golf is trendy golf is getting younger and therefore there's more lifetime

value from millennials and maybe guys my age or shall I say our age so the show

is roaring with a comeback of epic proportions there are apparel companies

like a putnam on the women's side that has become a country club darling that is

new it's a resort to sport collection it's not stuffy it's not boxy shirts for

women really cool the influx of more club activities into the PGA show like

pickleball pedale to a small degree and tennis that's evidenced by a company

called boast coming in boast was the brand in I think it was the early 70s

worn by a lot of players in the US open kind of the original tennis brand is

making a comeback really really cool and quite frankly you have companies like

fairway IQ that measures pace of play you have AM golf which is the all

inclusive golf app you have the genius golf ball I don't know if you saw this

Chris but it is genius yes electronics embedded in a ball like a launch

monitor in a ball and they have it for putting right now but it'll graduate

to something even bigger and better moving forward for drivers for wedge

play there's landscape golf management had a big presence in party landscape

golf management is one of these multi-course operators that has a portfolio of

70 plus properties that it operates you have light speed golf which is the

number one provider of advanced golf management software and credit card

processing I mean it is it is unbelievable Williams athletic club is another

women's brand that's incredibly hot it's by it was brought to us by one of the

leaders and textiles formerly with Eritzia Lululemon and Nike so there are a

lot of entrance in golf and there are a lot of people coming from outside golf

adjacent industries or verticals to golf that are lending both flare professionalism

and sophistication you know golf has a rap or had a rap that it was 20 years

behind from a business operations standpoint airlines hotels and rental

car agencies and it is closing the gap and it is closing the gap fast I want to

get your thoughts because you've talked a lot about the technology and what

we're seeing coming into our game AI is something I think we're all sort of

intrigued by maybe a little bit scared of but we're seeing it coming into the

golf space as well where do you see AI's future within the golf industry I

it's already happening on the business side you see I mentioned notify which

is the open-take evil or resi for golf t-times notify came out with an AI

booking assistant so staff that is inundated at the counter in the pro shop doesn't

need to make people wait online because the AI assistant picks up and it is

amazing and then you look at a small company but very quietly successful by

the name of par one it's a golf technology company that will soon transform

how golfers will analyze and improve their game performance so this this

company par one with offices in New York and Knoxville of all places Knoxville

is called Ava golf AVA golf and what that will do and I anticipated coming to

the market in next three four months I sometimes have the inside scoop Ava

golf compiles golf for swing data from gathered from simulators launch monitors

and on-course play it transmits it to an Ava golf app and via AI it creates

personalized playlists of video recommendations to fix swing flaws and this

is very insightful it's very intuitive so watch out for Ava golf brought to

you by par one it is really cool I am so privileged and grateful to get a

sneak preview of that and that is the way it's going it's not cheating it's

giving people the ability to play better enjoy the game more compete to be

the best version of themselves and play more frequently what more can we ask

for nowadays it is so cool what's going on out there whether you know the

inner workings behind the scenes of AI and it's application of golf or you

don't we're all a benefactor so if I'm a PGA or LPGA professional hearing what

you just said I'm probably getting a little bit nervous that AI is coming for me

is it absolutely not it'll augment the coaching capabilities of PGA

professionals and others who are very insightful in their teachings it will not be

a replacement it'll be an asset and an aid to their thought process their

methodology and they will work it into their routines big time remember these

are based on data data doesn't lie so if coaches can infuse their teaching

methodologies their routines and their brilliance with data that is sure fit

with little margin of error to help their games it's the perfect connection for

data and AI to team with coaches and for coaches to team with data and AI

coaches will embrace this mark my word because if they don't they'll be replaced

if they do they'll double or triple their lesson books and their rates because

they will be that much more effective with indisputable data and

interpretation as they position these golfers in person really cool time to be

in golf so from the 40,000 foot level rich including everything we've talked

about here in the golf industry the various professional tours when you look

out at the landscape do you see a gap anywhere that needs to be filled or any

place where the powers that be better start paying attention to kind of like

what you just mentioned a moment ago with the AI but are there things out there

that you you see that there are gaps that someone needs to come in and fill or

like I say the the people at the higher levels within the industry better start

paying attention to or you know things could come off the rails yes I think

golf is recession resistant but not recession proof so the warning to golf

course owners and operators and remember equipment companies wouldn't be here

Calaway wouldn't be here Taylor made wouldn't be here if it wasn't for golf

course operators although we are recession recession resistant we're not

recession proof do not and this is my plea to golf course operators owners and

operators do not do not price ourselves out of the game of golf do not charge

too much for green fees do not charge too much for dues make sure they are

in line with the consumer price index with inflation and other variables that

impact our households and lives yes there's latte that I bought from Starbucks on

December 30th is now 25 cents more 35 cents more on January 1 but

it's not a dollar 50 more so be cognizant that you need to grow equal to the

rate of the economy not faster than the economy there are so many pressures

out there to put food on the table a roof over people's heads and yeah golf is

the last thing people will give up but if we price ourselves too high in the

marketplace compared to other activities and compared to our daily needs

wow I don't want to be here when that happens well I think and I think you're

spot on with that rich as if it's almost like kind of the mistakes of the

past right I mean I think some of the labels that used to get put on our game

decades ago was it was an elitist game as it was only to sport everything was

very expensive and I'll tell you here in the Atlanta area I have seen the same

courses that I used to play and pay somewhere between 40 and 60 dollars for

a round of golf are now over a hundred dollars a round of golf you know

down there in and around Orlando got a lot of friends that play down in that

area and once upon a time there used to be a golf course on just about every

street corner and they could go play for somewhere between 30 and 50 dollars and

they can't get on the place for less than 80 or a hundred and when I talk to

operators they've got full tee sheets so they're like you know it's kind of

like the law of supply and demand well demand is high so prices high but I feel

like we are starting to edge ourselves towards going back to where we used to

be and used to be in a very expensive sport to go play and I worry about the

same things that you just pointed out yeah now you're right now the great

offset it's amazing I've seen several golf courses and let's make the

distinction these are golf courses not country clubs but adding amenities that

Jason took off so I remember a buddy of mine in the Pacific Northwest just kind of

regular golf course man it's a daily fee course it's solid probably a little

higher than middle of the road and he just built 18 pickable courts because he

realizes that he can only you know based on the quality of the golf course he

can only charge so much so how does he draw people to do two activities in one

day or if they're not in the mood to play golf come out and do play pickle

ball and not golf or golf not pickable options now I'm not talking about the

Cheesecake Factory menu that's 20 pages and super overwhelming I'm talking

about something that keeps them coming keeps them coming often adjacent to

golf and stops them from going to the golf course down the street that may

be underpriced and one dimensional rich just a couple more before I let you go

and I want to switch gears on you because like I mentioned in your intro you

founded Billy Casper golf and mr. Casper and Gary player were the very first

guests on the show all the way back in 2013 mr. Casper joined me a few

times before he passed and he was just one of the kindest people that I'd ever

had an opportunity to meet and talk with talk about who he was and the

relationship you had with him oh wow you're gonna may cause me to cry at 536

in the evening my dad passed away when I was 26 my father-in-law passed away

when I was 25 and it was crushing and I remember Billy in handling his

business affairs at a very young age when I was young and Billy was

younger not younger than I was but I remember Billy saying I know you don't

have your dad I don't I know you don't have Jennifer's dad my wife's dad

around if you ever need anything I know I won't be your dad but I could be

your substitute dad with wisdom and he provided that wisdom to me a couple

things that really stick with me he said to me hey Rich the secret to life and

everyone's success is maintaining an even keel don't get too high don't get too

low you know what happens when you get too high or too low you get cardiac

arrest do you want to die and he said it just like that and I said wow and that

helped me maintain that even keel in good times or bad times he told me that

happiness is defined turning a bad mood into a good day and he told me that in a

crowded room focus on one thing and that's who you're speaking with do not

focus on anything in the periphery those are three things that stick in my

mind in addition to all the practical jokes he tried to play on me but I was

able to figure out before he tried but he I'm sorry Chris go ahead no I'm just

gonna say he was as good as it got from about the nineteen mid-1950 said the

mid-1970s and as the title of his book says the big three in me those four

guys were very dominant on the PGA tour for those two decades but he's a guy

rich that I don't think gets enough appreciation from people for just how

great he was he won three majors he finished in the top 10 in majors 21 times

he won 51 times out on the PGA tour which is still good for seventh best all

time but his name very rarely comes up outside of my conversations with Tom

Patrick that he is somebody that deserves more recognition than he gets why

do you think he doesn't get the I guess why doesn't he get his due a couple

things he was he had a fluctuating girth for a while you know some weight issues

so he may not have looked like you know the golden bear or the swath demeanor

Arnold he also had some allergies and some people thought it was crankiness he

didn't stick around for an hour press conferences like his good friend Gary

and his good friend Jack and the reason why he didn't stick around for press

conferences and and I can't relate to this you can't relate to this but he

had 11 kids at home so when you have 11 kids at home it's tough it's tough for

the other parent right so I think those reasons that's why he didn't play the

British open often because it was a long way from home and a long way from a

really really big family did he ever talk to you about the 1966 US Open when he

came from seven back with nine to play to beat Arnold and a plough yeah the

only thing that he and I ever spoke about you know it's weird we didn't speak

about a lot of history and golf we talked more about life and you know how nice

things you know nice people do nice things for other nice people but he he

did share with groups and he did share with me over dinner and breakfast and

car rides when he beat Arnold when they were walking off 18 he put his arm around

Arnold and he said Arnold I'm sorry and the relationship was never the same

from that point on is that right yeah he really didn't talk about wins it was a

job in a lot of cases well he didn't talk about wins I think he probably

remembered every hole that he played when he finished 18th place at the

Sammy Davis junior invitational and wherever it was so he had a knack for

remembering holes but he never really at least with me talked about his wins and he

never talked about anything in golf except for at times conservative play and

putting with your wrists but it's interesting or a conversationalist about life then

he was about golf because golf is four and a half five hour rounds life is the

rest of the 24 hours right was their relationship he and Mr. Palmer were there

was their relationship different because Billy felt badly for what Mr. Palmer

just unfortunately went through or was it Mr. Palmer was just you know so

disappointed and upset that it impacted their relationship from his angle if I

told you I'd have to kill you that's the ultimate cop out Chris I don't know

whether or apologize or I just had something to go with him right but it was so

neat meaning you know Billy Billy got my company to play a significant role in

the Hassan to golf trophy in Morocco for 12 years and I'm grateful to him for his

life lessons and for having the trust in me and our team and giving me the

opportunity to travel either with him or outside of him travel the world and

experience golf from so many cultures meet so many great people and each so

many forms of strange cuisine that I do not have professional regrets by

enlarge it's interesting that you mentioned that he talked about the wrist

and putting and it's something that I've asked Mr. Player about over the years

how back in the day a lot of the putting stroke was all wrist and now there's

no wrist in the putting stroke so the evolution of that I always find very

interesting yeah yeah the games changed in some ways if you look back at the

films back in the day golf kept the complex simple and now there's so much

with swing analysis so much with data that a lot of these players lose the

field and sometimes they get paralyzed by over analyzing aspects of their

game and even aspects of their lives you know my wife and I had this

conversation the other day it's it's harder for our kids to grow up in today's

world of technology than it was for us you know back in the 70s and 80s where

we didn't have social media we can't come home we do our homework we'd watch

cartoons and we play ball on the front yard with our neighbors now everything is

so complex there's so many choices that unless you're super focused and

unless you're over disciplined it's really tough to become elite in golf or

any other pursuit you do nowadays rich before I let you go remind our listeners

what you're doing now so we we sold Billy Casper golf to Trune so I had an exit

after a wonderful 30 year run and I owe that run to two guys Bob Morris and

Peter Hill for bringing me into the fold of golf as well as everyone else that

has helped me and helped the industry when they really didn't have to I had

the Buffalo agency now called Buffalo Group the golf PR marketing firm I left

that firm my wife got very ill so I took some time off and I missed the action

so I started my one person golf marketing and golf business advisory firm I

helped CEOs navigate the landscapes of brands I broker the sale and acquisition of

golf courses and golf businesses I sit on three boards boards of directors and I

have investments in double digits golf companies so I'm as busy as I want to be

here to help others grow their businesses more better faster and help out

this easier because I've made a lot of mistakes out there I've learned from

them and I want to keep them from doing the same and I do that by leveraging my

institutional knowledge and my industry connections and it's really fascinating

having the time of my life there are a lot of good people in golf and I see no

reason why that would stop anytime soon well Rich I know you don't do a lot of

interviews anymore so I'm incredibly humbled and grateful that you would take the

time to come back and be a part of this show with me again this week you are

truly one of the great people that we get to meet in this life I can't thank

you enough for all of your wonderful support over the years I appreciate you

very very much the feelings mutual keep these great podcasts coming man you're

educating a market and entertaining a market that's so appreciative of the

game of golf and the business of golf so thank you Rich take care my friend all

the best to you and your lovely wife I hope we get this privilege with you

again maybe a little bit later on this year you bet Chris thank you take care

Rich you too folks that is the great rich cats and like I said then and I and I

don't say this this isn't you know hyperbole or this isn't just because rich

was a part of the show this week one of the great individuals you get to meet

in this life when I walked into the media center at the PJ Merchandai show rich

tends to sit in the same place every year and I look down there and I could see

his space he was smiling not at me but at the people that he was talking with but

I knew that there he is and this is my opportunity to get a few minutes with him

and he stood right up and came over and and we got the chat for a little bit

and it's the highlight of going down to the PJ Merchandai show is to get those

few minutes with Rich look he has just been a wonderful supporter of me in the

background of doing this show he is always there with a kind word always there

with support and if you need anything and that sort of thing that's that's one

of the rare things in this world these days of having somebody that is being out

there for you celebrating you and being willing to help you if you need anything

that's who rich cats is and it's not just with Chris mask arrow it by a long

shot he has done it for so many people over the decades it's unbelievable you

can see the people that are there sitting at the table wanting to talk with

rich and to and to pick his brain he's there for those people he is just that's

who rich cats is a guy that's gonna be there for you when you need it and you

know kind of cheering you on in the background when you don't I can't thank him

enough for everything that he is meant to me and the way that he is boosted me

over the years just just that kind of a great individual and look the great

things that he just talked about his insights into what's going on in and

around the game being right there in the heart of it the things that he got to

be a part of growing his career over the years at his time at ESPN at his

time at Billy Casper golf in the Buffalo agency and then those stories at the

end with Billy Casper how great is that about Billy Casper he loses both his

father and his father in law and Billy's right there to step in to be there to

be that kind of person in rich's life Billy Casper is so underrated under

appreciated for the great guy that he was and the great talent that he had you

heard Tom Patrick talk about it on the show before a great individual great

player and the guy that deserves more do 51 wins out on tour three majors and

and all those times in the top 10 in those majors he wasn't winning he was

contending and pushing the others so go out there and check out Billy Casper's

career as well I can say hopefully we get the privilege of catching up with

rich a little bit later on this year now back in next on the T with me is

Jennifer Whaley let me remind you a little bit about Jen's background as a

junior player in high school she let her all four years and golf in two years

in field hockey she was named all conference and golf all four years and a

four-year all-state and all-newing on selection as well she played her college

golf at Quinnipiac which is up in Hamden Connecticut where she was the team

captain for three seasons she led them in birdies for multiple seasons and in

fact she is number one in career birdies and rounds played in school history

she led them to the Metro Atlantic athletic conference championship during

your senior season and was named to the conference all academic team three

times after graduating she became a financial consultant a strategic advisor

per CVS and Etna she went back to school and earned her master's degree at MIT

she is now a senior product manager for golf balls at Calaway and as you guys

know her mom Susie Whaley is one of my all-time favorite guests here on the

show and I couldn't be more excited that I get to have Jen back with me this

week here on next on the tee hey Jen thanks for coming back on the show

absolutely there's nothing better than a Chris intro seriously I know I

said I'm two but I think I need to just come here when I have a little confidence

they need a little confidence boost you know that was also big so much absolutely

so but Jen it's it's been a minute since I got to spend some time with you so

catch this up what's been going on absolutely so I do have a new role the

last time I was on I was talking about a new ecom site we were building called

Topgolf Shop I was working in the ecom organization with some changes that

are happening within Calaway and Topgolf I had an opportunity to shift roles

slightly and get closer to product which I loved working on the ecom

organization but it was excited for a little bit of a change the challenge and

as you mentioned as a lifelong golfer getting to work on product every day was

exciting to me so about seven months ago now at this point I transitioned into

more of a product manager type of a role and specifically for golf ball I

like to say I work on anything that's a non-white golf ball so any decorated

design you might see that's specifically within my area of focus so all of our

limited edition drops you might see those for Valentine's Day we just had a drop

Mother's Day, Father's Day, etc so anything fun you could think of we've done

cats right I could kind of walk you through some of the ones we've done that have

been really fun but it's a very creative role while also being staying really

close to the product so in the last I would say a couple months I've gotten to

lean and more into learning more about our inline golf balls so working on those

white golf balls as well and then dabbling a little bit in packet sets so

completely different role from the last time I was here but it's been great and

and I mentioned my mom before she always laughs that now it you know the dinner

table when I went home for Christmas I'm talking about the layers of a golf ball

and how golf balls are produced and just like I can't believe this is happening

like that you know and you mentioned it I came from healthcare I took a little

bit of a left turn after college golf and ended up back right in the middle of

it and talking about how golf balls are made and she is so pumped no doubt I mean

I got to go back so some of the fun creative things you remember cats you

mentioned cats and stuff like that but what are some of the other cool fun things

that you've had that you put on golf balls it's been super fun so when I came

into the role the product manager that was in the position before me sort of

had led the calendar so I'm not going to take any credit for all the fun

amazing ideas that you know the team had come up with and but you know some of

our best sellers last year crazy enough one of the best was cats we sold out

and only a couple of days it was one of those ones that I wasn't so sure of but

you know helped lead the charge to get it across the finish line and who knew

there were a lot of golfers that love cats but we do you know wide range we also

do drops on both our super softball and our usually our chrome tour or something

in the chrome lineup so it's sort of two different price points and they have

we had a lot of holidays and then we also try to do a lot of sort of out

there fun in the moment type thing so you know think area 51 dinosaurs shark

week you know maybe like we did turn box which was a hot dog and a hamburger

and beer and chips we did one for football season so we try to make sure we

have we're hitting on those holidays and really giftable moments but also

sometimes just having some fun and you know sometimes we hit a home run sometimes

they're not as strong but it's a great way to one get people talking about

Callie golf balls potentially try it for the first time because they love the

design and maybe wouldn't have thought to try it previously and hopefully fall in

love with our ball and our brand and want to keep using Callie balls moving

forward I saw your post about the PGA merchandise show and I'm bummed that I

missed you there tell me how it went for you there at the show wow what an

experience it's one of those funny full circle moments for me I remember

growing up my parents both my parents always went to the show and it was one of

those few events that both my parents would go to you know they both worked in

golf so there were a lot of overlaps and trips for them but they always try to

make sure one of them was home with my sister and I growing up when the show

was always one they both had to go to which usually meant we had a babysitter

or an outcome visit who advised McDonald's and let us do it ever wanted and

have like the best week of our lives so it was one of those funny full circle I

remember calling my sister and saying oh they asked me to go to the show which is

like that so weird you know so then to actually see it after hearing my

parents stories all these years was incredible I mean how many people are

there the variety of products there I mean I feel like there were you know the

extension of health wellness food golf carts obviously you know manufacturers

apparel like there was just so many different avenues within golf that

sometimes you forget especially being somewhere like Callie way where we're

focused on you know what's going in your bag all day long and we forget all

the other components but it was such an incredible experience I got to meet

so many amazing people and then also just get people excited about our lineup

for this year between our new chrome tour golf ball full chrome family golf ball

and our quantum lineup we just have some really great product this year so that

was also fun to be one of the representatives for Callie way talking about

product I really believe in so let's take that a step further for the

chrome family of golf balls what is new and different about the golf ball this

year than it was last absolutely so we came out with the chrome tour golf ball

for the first time in 2024 so it is a little bit of a newer product to the

market but it's really our go at having the top premium golf balls in the market

and we actually had an all-time high in our share come August so we really are

focusing on this part of our business especially within the golf ball world

and focusing on tour level golf balls so with that from 2024 to 2026 the

main focus is that these golf balls are faster and more consistent so we have

added a brand new it's a brand new material to the industry within our golf balls

we're calling it the tour fast mantle and this new mantle that we put into our

products the engineers who are way smarter than me I just hope sell the balls

right but there's people behind the scenes that are you know engineers and are

really focused on how do we make sure we're not changing the golf ball in a

way that a consumer no longer likes it over changing the compression which

then in turn might change the feel and you no longer like your golf ball because

it feels firmer softer than what you used to play in 2024 so how do we make

sure we're not changing compression on people but make the ball faster and

what's pretty cool is we do something here called our chrome tour golf ball

challenges where we will we will put up you know chrome tour chrome tour acts our

triple diamond or chrome soft any of our golf balls we are willing to challenge

it against any competitor and in our tests that we've done you know with

different people that have come through Callaway we're seeing those faster ball

speeds which is really what we're after how do we get people like I said before

using the same ball they already love but now just giving them a little bit

extra distance right why not why not make a faster golf ball if you can so that's

that was that's been super exciting and then just continuing to build on our

consistency factor we have a couple different technologies that we use that I

can get into if interested but just to make sure that not only are you hitting it

further but you're still hitting a consistent golf ball that you can trust

every single time and I think what's what's really great is if you were already

buying that gold box chrome tour keep buying the gold box if you're buying the

black box from to X keep buying that ball so we really tried to make sure the

overall identity of the ball wasn't changed but we just made it better all right

so there's a lot to unpack there but when you say the golf ball was more

consistent what does that mean so really what we're saying is we want to make

sure that you're seeing a similar flight and you're not seeing inconsistencies

with distance let's say so one example that we can dive into is something we

like at Callie like to call our seamless tour arrow so what that is is every

golf ball in the industry is made using two cavity halves when you put the two

cavity halves together make the golf ball release the two cavity halves you

create this layer of flash that happens on the golf ball that you have to get

right up right to create that circular shape and most in the industry use a

something called seam buffing to get rid of that flash which in turn can

distort the dimples where that flash was sitting what Callie does we have a

proprietary way of making sure when we remove that flash we aren't actually

distorting the dimples to make sure that we are not causing inconsistency in

our golf balls and we've done some tests where if you hit our golf ball you know

cross seam and inseam so two different ways from the middle of the fairway into a

grain we're only looking at about within three feet or less of difference in

where your golf ball will land on the grain if you look at some of our

competitors cross seam and inseam where they're using that seam buffing process

you can see up to 10 to 15 feet of differential you know just by changing the

golf ball orientation on the grain so that's really what we're highlighting when

we say consistency of we're making sure that we are not distorting our

golf balls in any way and making sure it's a consistent golf ball between the

dimples you know the paint everything that goes into that ball making sure

that every time you hit it you can trust it that it's going to go where you

want it it's going to spin or not spin depending on what ball you're using

right it's going to feel the way you expect it firm or soft I think that's

something I found really interesting working in golf ball especially as you

get more and more advanced it's how much preference there is in choosing your

golf ball right I came into this role thinking okay let's create a chart where

we can say based on your handicap and maybe your swing speed right or you know

what other ever factor here's exactly the golf ball you should use and immediately

everyone is like that's not how it works because there's so many factors that

go into as a player do I feel like no of course there's data you can use as

well but there is some preference of do I prefer a firmer ball or softer ball

do I prefer more spin or less spin you know what's important to me in a

ball fall and I think it's funny too if you look at someone like mom she's

after distance all day long you know she was a competitive player she's still a

great player she'll hate me saying this but our swing speed might have has come

down a little bit as you know her age has gone up and all she's after is more

distance she's not as worried about about spin anymore because she just wants to

make sure she's hitting it further and getting it as close to the green as she

can so she's going to choose something like a chrome tour triple diamond when

maybe in reality an optimal ball for her might be a chrome tour X which has more

spin but at the end of the day it's about preference right we're here to give

our consumers all the information about our lineup of balls and then the consumer

can pick which ball they prefer and what they like best we're just giving you the

data to help you make that decision. Gen along those same lines a lot of us

choose the golf ball that we play by either seeing our favorite player out

there playing it maybe it's a zander chauflay or a sand burns with a chrome

tour chrome tour X golf ball or you know we have some of those in our bag plus

then we reach in and grab whatever we have some balls that we found in the woods

or some we fished out of the pond or we have one of those two of those three of

those or another one of those other ones and we put whatever we have down and

we play from there we're simply not picking the golf ball that is right for us

right for our swing because this just in most of us don't have the same swing

speed of our favorite player those of us who have a swing speed under 100

miles an hour have no business using the same golf ball as the tour players do

it just doesn't react the same for us as it does for them I'm guessing the

chrome triple diamond not meant for a player like me so talk about finding the

right golf ball for you and your swing and then sticking with that one for a

so that you understand how it's going to react and all of the different situations

that we find ourselves in so fair I think that is a really interesting factor and we're

continuing to dive into that is that tour impact of course there's going to be people that are

really just want to play with the tour players are playing and there's an aspirational level

right which we support 100 but I think for the average player I mean even me I you know

my whole life was really just playing whatever my parents handed me you know which is on me

I wasn't doing the research and I wasn't diving in but I really hadn't taken the time to think

heavily about my ball I thought heavily about clubs in my bag what wedges I want right what degree

I want my driver to be but you know I think something that's interesting is the golf ball is the

only product you use on every single shot yeah it's probably the one that people don't think

about a little bit less because it feels more like a consumable right oh you know let me just go

grab some balls from the shop I bought this before I've heard that one's good and you know depending

on the type of player they're not thinking too much about what would be optimal for them so I do

think that's important is on having people understand how important and how helpful the right golf

ball can improve your game so I would say I this is my really simple way because again I'm only seven

months in so I have a lot to learn but my really simple way for people is I like to start people with

the chrome tour I really think and that's the gold box I really think that is our hero product because

it's the best combination of everything you might be looking for you know it's it's in the middle

of the pack in terms of feel it has really good consistent flight it has you know a nice level of

spin from the it's sort of a good starting point right it's in the middle I guess you could call

it's it's what I use I like to tell people if you're looking to hit it in the middle of the green

that's what you go with right then you have people who like to work the ball a little bit more they

want that more spin you know maybe they're playing some of our competitors X balls that's where I would

shift them to a chrome tour X right so really if you're looking for more spin then the then a

typical ball you would go X if you're looking for less spin you want more distance kind of like I

say before about mom you would go with the triple diamond and what's pretty cool is my golf spy

does a massive golf ball test every year and triple diamond actually came out as the number one ball

in terms of speed from a high swing speed and a low swing speed so while we do suggest if you're

a higher swing speed to go into the triple diamond there is some data that supports it you know

with with both swing speeds and then lastly if you're you know your swing speed has really is really

you know a bit lower than average you would say and you're looking for a little bit more ball flight

maybe you're hitting a little bit lower that's where I would move to the chrome soft you know that's

actually one of our you know best product best selling products we've had chrome soft in the market

for much longer than these other chrome products I've mentioned today but that's that's my

suggestion that's what I've come to learn in my couple months here is like I said chrome

chrome tours a great starting point in the middle and then depending if you want more spin or less

spin that's where you could start changing around between the X and the triple diamond.

Jen you mentioned a moment ago cross seam and inseam one of the things that I think a lot of us

don't think enough about when we're playing a part three in particular if we've got a scoring iron

in our hand maybe it's a seven iron off the tee maybe it's something along those lines or even

if we're getting into the hybrids we're not thinking along the lines of making sure that the ball

is situated a certain way on the tee you talk about how there might be some differences in consistency

is there a way that we should be putting that golf ball on the tee to make sure that we are

getting it as close to the pin as possible. So I think that's what's great about the

Callaway golf ball lineup is you don't have to worry about that right it's we the way that we

go about getting rid of that flash our seamless tour arrow make sure that regardless of how your

ball sits you will see that consistency and really the thinking behind that is a part three okay great

if I could you know line up my ball and if I was able to find the seam which is really challenging

even for me now to try to see where seam is you know engineers and PhDs can but I think you know

on a part three great but what about when you have a six iron and do a par five right or par four

and you can't control how the ball sitting so for me I would say the great thing my callaways you don't

need to worry about that it's going to be consistent no matter how you place the ball now depending

on what type of I think another great part of the Callaway lineup is we have extensive visual

technologies that you can put on the golf ball things like triple track and true track and

you know if we have time we can kind of run through all those two which really is just for people

who are looking for help in alignment and feedback then of course maybe you're thinking a little more

about how you line it on the tee but otherwise you can trust the ball that it'll be consistent don't

have to worry about it you also talked about technology and we can get more into the technology

I mean I don't want to make people's head explode when they listen to this segment but talk about

some of the higher level technology that sets your golf ball apart yeah so I think because I've

talked about seamless tour era which was the main thing I wanted to chat about today so what I'll

talk about is some of these visual technologies which we call them which are the different things you

can add on top of the golf ball so instead of just playing a white ball which to be honest I was a white

golf ball player my whole life when I you know actually started Callaway not even in the golf ball role

I started learning more about triple track and that this triple track technology is science-based

we've worked with doctors and found that the contrast between it's and just people that don't know

triple track is blue and red lines three of them in total and their science that says that contrast

between the red and the blue especially when you put it on green grass really helps your eye

focus and then the way that we've designed the three lines isn't a way that one helps you of course

align your line the ball whether it's putt or on a par three or for your drive but also gives you

that feedback as it's rolling on the green as well so I really enjoyed playing the triple track ball

I think a misconception I hear from a lot of my friends that are great golfers is they think

they hear Callaway golf ball they do think triple track but they actually think triple track is a ball

when in reality it's something you can add on to almost any of our golf balls you can put triple

track you know you can pick the triple track variant for chrome tour chrome tour x triple diamond

from soft ERC soft right you can that's something you can play with on every single golf ball and don't

have to think I had a friend tell me oh I love I love the idea of triple track but I just too firm

I was like well that sentence doesn't totally make sense because triple track is you know what's

on top of the golf ball now let's change what golf ball you want and we'll find the ideal you know

situation for you so that's that's I would say our top visual technology and then we've been

exploring in other areas like a 360 yellow stripe that goes around the entire golf ball

which again is something that I don't necessarily I would I don't think I would have thought to

pick it up but I've heard feedback from really strong golfers who have said the the yellow itself

is so bright that one of course you know you can use it for a line in purposes and it helps you

with that feedback on the greens but also make sure nobody else in your group is going to hit your

role because you know what's yours right which I think is a great point to them and then the

other one I'll mention to your point I want to explode too many heads here is we have another one

called another technology called true track which are hexagons that are placed along the golf ball

in a way that when you line it up you can use the edges of the hexagons as your alignment aid

and then that one really gives you that feedback as it's rolling on the green if you hit a straight

putter knot so it's it's just a fun way to sort of play with you know what are we like to say

visual technology is backed in science built by our R&D team to make sure that has a benefit to the

golfer the decorated stuff which is also a huge part of my role is fun right that's the brand moment

that's marketing it's getting people into our ball trying it for the first time um because they're

excited about cats or mother's day right or whatever it might be um so we have a bunch of great

drops coming up this year that I hope will get people excited for to try the calorie ball especially

in this 2026 variant you've got a great facility out there in Carlsbad the Eli Calaway Performance

Center talk about what's available out there it's such an amazing place you know I wish I got to

hang out there more there are people who get you know hang out there all day and I should say hang

out of course they're working but it's just such a beautiful facility and we we use that

facility for a lot of different things you know a lot of our testing especially with golf fall

we'll do with the ECPC we have robot testing out there we have player testing uh you know when all

of our tour players come to get fit or you know even uh after Tory Pines right they wanted to come

and you know play around with some new product or you know get a tune up anything that they might

want to use that facility for it's there for them um but you know it serves a lot of great

purposes you know between our tech for our our our indeed team testing as well as when we have

people come through uh and we want them to actually see the golfal outside right I think that

you know in all clubs I think seeing it so when you're testing new product or getting a fitting uh

of course there's the ease when you can do it on a screen and do it inside you can crank through

it but there's something also to getting to hit the ball outside and hit some product outside

you know my dad recently I got him to uh hopefully he's okay with me saying this I got him to

do a full fitting at Calaway right because this is my goal now and now that I work at Calaway I need both

my parents playing some Calaway product especially ball right that's the starting point hello

like I'm in the golf hall let's get that fixed first please um but I made my dad when he came to visit

just do a full fitting just to you know try some product and see what he liked and he he did his

fitting inside uh and he said you know that was great and I enjoyed it but I really would love to

do it outside just to you you see more if you know the ball flight and how certain things are

reacting and um so I think that's a great part about the ECPC is you have that ability

speaking of fitting one of the things that I think there's such a misconception we talk a lot

about that on on the show is people getting properly fit for their golf club I mean I think there's

the misconception that well that's just for tour players it's this not for the everyday player

and I really believe it's actually the inverse because great players can figure out how to hit

any club for those of us that are out there playing you know with clubs off the rack I think we're

leaving a lot of shots and a lot of uh scoring opportunities on those same shelves when we pick up

those clubs and walk out of the store because those things weren't fit for us and not fit for our swing

they're not fit for how we you know deliver the club face to the golf ball talk about why it's just

as important if not more important for everyday players to go get properly fit it's so funny you say

that we were having a conversation today at work about how we ensure that every fitting is a ball

fitting and somebody in that conversation you know we're talking about you know just the different

golf balls right and how you you know what data you would need to be able to fit the golfer

during their fitting into a certain golf ball and someone said well it's not like you're going to get

you know a 25 handicap or getting fit and you know push them towards a super soft product something

along those lines and a couple of us in the room were like actually you know that's exactly who

should be getting fit and we hope that's who's getting fit of course there's going to be people who

are you know 10 handicap or less who maybe are getting fit more often or to your point know exactly

what they want they know how to hit most clubs and they're going to refresh right they know they hit

the 10 and a half you know elite driver last year okay this year I want the quantum 10 and a half

right they're just going to upgrade based on the new model but they kind of already know right

what they like and what they want whereas potentially newer golfers or intermediate golfers kind

of like I was saying about ball before if you're not using the right product it's already hard

enough right golf is hard enough let's have the product in the ball they're optimal for you so

that it's only helping you on the course so I'm a huge advocate for getting fit I hear the same

feedback all the time you know friends and family saying well you know my swing's down in a good

place right now when I want to fix my swing and then eventually I'll go get fit and I always say

you know I almost would rather get fit when my parents will kill me for saying this but I don't

almost rather get fit when you know my swing's bad because now the product's just going to help me

you know and say you know maybe getting fit into I'm hitting the best ever and now all of a sudden

I lose it and my things are you know super skinny blades and I'm terrified to miss it so yeah that's

for me I'm all about what can I what can people do to make the game easier more enjoyable more

accessible and I think we have you know there's great solutions out there kind of like I mentioned

before you know complete sets or package sets where okay if you're really new and you're sort of

terrified you can there's a one-step purchase where you can buy something that is a golf bag and all

your golf clubs that you need and you're ready to go right when you're ready to move on from that

package set that's honestly where I would say it might be worth getting fit and just see what's

right for you see what sort of set mix you want I think that's something that can be you know scary

to people is well how many hybrids do I need and what wedges do I need right um do I need a

mount or blade putter like there's so many decisions that fitting will just help you with those

decisions and making sure you have the best product Jen talk about using the same ball consistently

because I think another thing many amateurs like me do is we've got all kinds of different golf balls

in our golf bag you know we've we've got two of these three of those one of those a couple we found

in the woods one we fished out of the pond hey we've got all kinds of things in that golf bag and

then we reach into the golf bag to pull out one if we've hit a bad shot or whatever right and now all

of a sudden it's completely different than the ball we were using on the last hole or the last several

holes and it reacts differently and we act surprised talk about you know picking a golf ball

that's right for you and then sticking with that one so you have an opportunity to understand

how it's going to react on a chip how it's going to react on a flop shot how it's going to react

just in every day and all your different swings I think you nailed it it's so true and my original

thing I was going to say was as long as every random ball in your bag as Calaway works for me

I'm 100% with you I think there is definitely so many that consistency and I think your point

of shipping is probably the best example where you know to use the Calaway product as an example

if I'm playing with a chrome 2x that I mentioned before that's the golf ball that has more spin

right that's going to react close to the green potentially completely differently based on the

shot you're hitting for some of the other other products in our line you also if you change balls

from potentially a tour golf ball right to maybe something that's you know an ionomer based

golf ball it's you know it's a little bit cheaper because you know you're more interested in

price than some of the benefits that's okay too I get that but then you're really changing the

golf ball because you know a super soft as an example is going to fly higher right if you change to

a triple diamond all of a sudden you might get extra yards which is great but maybe not if you're

trying to hit a green right so there's all these factors that yes the ball is consistent 100%

but as you change potentially models or even brands you might start seeing inconsistencies and then

you're not able to tailor your game in a way that okay when I hit this chip I know 100% how it's

going to spin and I and I know the shot I'm going to hit right if you're over your ball sort of like

oh I'm not entirely sure what's going to happen so I'm just going to swing and pray right maybe

there's a better solution Jenny wrote an article for the Callaway website last year it was titled

tips for women golfers building confidence and finding your community for women who may feel

intimidated or hesitant to take up our game you lay out a step-by-step process for how to kind of

ease your way into it talk about the message you want women to take away from that article

well I love that you found that article first and foremost that's something that I am really

passionate about and you know it's something that a couple you know women and men of course but

couple of the girls that work here and I have been really focused on how do we improve the women's

aspect of our website but also more generally than that and articles like that are hopefully

a starting point for people that really just don't know where to start or feel intimidated which

is so fair I think golf is probably one of the more intimidating sports out there between

the equipment the price point all the rules and the etiquette that are just sort of people just

seem to know right since they've been playing their whole life and they just understand the terminology

and the etiquette so I completely understand I'm a big advocate of two things one is you know

bringing your friends along with you I think there's a level of comfort of if I bring a bunch of

my girlfriends out that are new to the game they feel comfortable that they will not be embarrassed

because they're with somebody that knows right so man or women I highly suggest bringing some of

your beginner friends out especially women who maybe feel a little bit more that discomfort

and unsure if you know where do I stand on the t-box what should I wear where do I check in how

do I pay for range balls right all these questions that come natural to us golfers I think it's just

always helpful if you have somebody like that around with you if you don't have anybody that you

know that golf but you still want to get into it one thing I love to suggest is just go to your

local driving range and honestly just watch maybe that sounds creepy I don't mean it in a creepy way

I mean it more to realize that a lot of people stink at golf and they still love it it's

totally okay to stink and you don't have to be an expert right think a lot of my my girlfriend

specifically get worried about getting on course for the first time right because they're oh well

I'm not there yet I still know exactly what I'm doing and then once you start going to the

range a little bit more you realize oh there are a couple people here who don't really know what

they're doing and they don't they're okay with it they're just you know trying hitting in figuring

it out and when you get on course it's similar right you start getting paired with random people

and you realize they're more focused on their own game than yours so they really don't care

as long as you aren't holding up speed of play that's my number one piece of advice is once you're

on course it you know I always let's say double double the par right it's sort of put or put some

sort of you know top range for yourself in place and as soon as you get to that that number just pick

up your ball and be ready to go to the next hole and that way nobody's going to be bothered that

you're out there that you're trying you're having fun so I completely understand the golf is

intimidating but I think for women you know finding a community like I mentioned before bringing

others with you joining a league or lessons you know find your local pga pro and take a couple

lessons to really get the basics down and then just go out on course and have fun and don't hold

people up. Jen it is so refreshing to see that we are getting more and more women into our game 7.9

million women are playing on courses nowadays accounting for roughly 28% of all golfers that's

up 46% since 2019 why do you think so many more women have started to play over the last half

dozen years or so. That's a great question I think there's so many things that are going into it

right I think COVID was a big driving force for people wanting to still get outside in a safe way

right and we continue to see that surge in golf that's probably more holistically than just women

but I do think that opened up an opportunity for women to say hey let me try this because it's

one of the only things I don't really do right during COVID I also would say top of mind right now

I do think there's something about social media we're seeing more and more women's golfers

whether it's influencers lpga players right have a little bit more you know the more recognizable

you're seeing their content more they're you know it's exciting to watch you know now good good

has a whole girls team right there there's all these moments where all of a sudden women are

seeing more and more people out there golfing and potentially kicking some of that intimidation

factor out of it right and I think it's fun as people are just realizing more and more that

golf is such an incredible sport because even if you're not the best at it one that's what handy

capture for us you can still compete and have fun with your friends but it also could just be

something that okay every Saturday I like to get my steps in and what a great way you know as a

healthy alternative to go get my steps in and sometimes my friends are loved ones and enjoy a hobby

and get better at a sport so I'm definitely seeing it I you know I'm seeing it even at work I

would say a little bit of a different take but you know the number of women that we have working

here at Callaway is encouraging to me and continues to increase and you know not surprisingly my

mom has really instilled the importance of not only you know myself in the game of golf and

representing you know that for other girls but bringing other girls along with us and making

sure it's an inclusive place for all is definitely where my you know I get most excited and you know

love working at Callaway and finding ways to do that and I would say again that's why I really

enjoy what I'm doing because I you know when you focus specifically on the drops right I now have

this opportunity where okay are there a couple drop you know limited edition drops I could do that

maybe lean a little bit feminine and might excite somebody right I've had so many girls at work we

just recently came out with a drop called golf hurts which have little fun golf puns on hearts

all over the golf ball it's a really fun potential present for Valentine's Day or any gift really

and I've had so many girls come up to me and say you know I don't really golf but those golf

balls are so cute I would you know I would love to buy some right I'd love to just have them and

I think there's a little bit of that too of you know what are things we can do that make it fun and

exciting to bring women into the game you know package sets again you know not to read it myself but

that's another great way of hey we're producing a really easy way to okay I don't need to worry

about what I need because it's a one-click purchase I can buy the revot complete set and it's

going to give me you know X number of golf clubs golf clubs but from driver all the way down to

putter it's going to give me my bag I just got to get some balls in a glove and I'm ready for the

first tee right instead of trying to worry about all the different pieces that you have to you know

come together to go out and play so I don't even remember where we started I'm sorry I could

talk about this forever but I'm so passionate about this and excited and you know that hopefully

we continue to grow indeed then just a couple more before I let you go and I saw that the Quinnipiac

women's golf team won the Metro Atlantic athletic conference championship again last year how great

was it to see your alma mater carrying on that winning tradition I love it I love that you brought it

up it's it's so special for me you know Quinnipiac women's golf has such a special place in my heart

you know my coach John O'Connor is still the coach today and he's done such an incredible

job growing that program I probably told the story last time I was on but what's really interesting

about the golf team is it was a late ad you know in probably 2000 and I'm gonna date myself here

let's see maybe 2010 let's call it just I don't know if that's actually right coach if you're

listening but you know 2010 it was a late ad to the you know athletics program I couldn't be at

and so coach O'Connor had to find girls that were already at the school to compete that spring

in the conference championship and he always tells this story that he ended up with a great

group of girls you know a couple that played golf in high school and a couple actually from the

ice hockey team that were done with their season and we're like yeah I'll go play golf you know

and he had a couple girls on the team who were shooting you know I don't know 125 at a

conference championship you know I remember him telling me he didn't even know how many golf balls

to bring because he was just like who knows what's gonna happen with these girls and you know

it was and see where it's come now you know even from that time to my senior year and us winning

you know the Matt conference championship the first conference championship in golf program history

was such an incredible moment to now you know fast forward and now wow the girls and I always

joke that we could never make the team now not only are they incredibly smart they're shooting you

know a couple over par and winning you know winning the tournament and we were you know we broke 80

we were happy right so it's just it's so fun to get to follow a program like that that's grown

so much and keeps getting better and better and just to know that there's so much opportunity

out there you know we I think our first we have our first player I didn't play with her but I got

to coach her for one year when I coached at Quinnipiac who's trying to become a professional right

I never would have guessed when I went to Quinnipiac that we'd have girls coming through our program

that are trying to become a pro so it's just so cool I love staying involved I love coach of

Connor and I'm so and I'm always so proud to be an alumni. Jen before I let you go remind our

listeners how can they stay up to date with the great things that you're that you're out there

doing whether they're doing it online or it's on social media I love it please check out calivagolf.com

or or your or any of your you know your local green grass store your you know your local golf

specialty store to see any of our drops you also can follow calivagolf on Instagram but that's

really what I'm you know excited about for this year besides our chrome tour lineup which you

can buy today but we almost have a lot of really fun limited edition drops coming up that you're

going to want to get your hands on so definitely keep an eye out on calivagolfs Instagram because

there's some really fun stuff coming I hope you guys are excited by. Jen has been great having you

back as part of this show I hope we get this privilege with you again soon because you're so much fun

using every time you join me. Hopefully next time I'm back I know even more about golf ball and we

can really explode some heads but I still appreciate giving me the time and the chance to talk about

and everything I'm doing at Cal way and you know I'm really enjoying it and loving it and excited

to share what I'm learning so this has been awesome thank you so much. Absolutely take care Jen

all the best of you your mom and the rest of the family look forward to catching up with you

again soon. You too thanks so much Chris. See you Jen. That is a great Jen Waley folks and first of

all excitement talk about someone that is just such a ball of energy and is excited about what

she does. That's one of the great things about Jen and I love people that come on the show

that share their enthusiasm for what they're doing. Why wouldn't you want to work around Jen Waley?

I mean that that excitement and that enthusiasm is just oozing out of her so she's a blast to

have as part of the show first of all and then you know the great stuff that she did get to share with

us talking about trying to find the right golf ball talking about some of their creative drops

and how they make it fun and how they make the golf ball fun talking about the right thing to do is

to go get fit. We talk about getting fit for your golf clubs on this show a lot right because we're

not good enough not to go get fit but the thing that we've started to talk more recently about is

finding the right golf ball for you for your swing speed find the right compression find the ones

that are fun right I mean look one of the things we do is we stare at that golf ball a lot out on

the golf course right so if you've got the one that's the right compression if you can find one

that is creatively appealing to the eye right to make sure you smile that reduces the stress out

there that's all the better and look Jen is just fantastic she is this is the second time she's

been a part of the show last time she was great this time even better she brings a smile to your face

she brings the positive and the enthusiasm that is a wavy treat Suzy's great at that and of course

Jen is great at that as well hopefully we get the privilege of catching up with Jen maybe a

little bit later on this season and we'll see what Callaway continues to do and what they introduce

into the market I'm sure it's going to be great in the golf ball section because they've got a

wonderful mind and talent like Jen working on it all right my friends it is time for me to put a

bow on this episode of next on the tee I want to send out my sincere thanks again to rich cats

and Jen Waley for joining me now coming up over the next several episodes here's who I've got

in store for you of course a resident director of instruction Tom Patrick will be here plus three

more of the top instructors in our game Taylor Crosby from down at the kingdom at Reynolds Lake

O'Coney PJ master professional John Hughes and a guy who belongs on the Mount Rushmore of

instructors Jim McLean will all be joining me I also have a crossover star from football former LSU

legend and Kansas City Chiefs wide receiver Eddie Kenneson who is just one of the great people

you get to meet in this life he has been a wonderful friend for many many years over in our show

Thursday night tailgate in fact he's in our guest hall of fame so Eddie will be joining us as well

I hope you'll come back and press play on those episodes I want to thank our friends again over

a trip live for being such wonderful partners and for hosting this show on their site for the

latest news from Western Pennsylvania and beyond including your favorite sports go to trip live.com

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greatest supporters in the history of podcast barring none I'm so grateful that you're here and

that you've made next on the tee apart of your weekly golf content until next time hit him straight

my friends thanks for joining Chris again this week on next on the tee we hope you enjoyed the

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