S14 Ep16: Bread of Heaven

Hello and joining you after a weekend in professional cycling when today Pogachau responded

to grumbles on the cycling podcast about his boring 70km breakway in Strade Bianca

by crashing before the suppressor cracking his frame and winning Milan San Raman by approximately

70mm. My name is Daniel Freibar and I'm the host of this week's episode of the cycling

podcast in which we'll examine some of Pog's newly unveiled excitement farming techniques

on the Ligurian Riviera and look ahead to a fascinating week of Pog free racing in Belgium

and Catalonia. Joining me to do that today is a man who's absent from La Classi Chissima

on Saturday, promises to ask whether the Slough Aliens victory even really counts on his

Palmares is the Motam Maestro, chewed up pro cycling so I will go. Warbass, now you were absent

so can we even consider it a monument victory. I mean if I'm not in the monument I guess

the victory doesn't count, you know at least not to me right? Yeah, usually do, you usually

do Milan San Raman but you know. Yeah I mean I haven't done it the last two years but

I would say I did it most of the years before that so I've probably done it five times

or something. Yeah. Something like that. Yeah. Yeah. Different

change of view this year you've just been explaining to me that you're going up to

Sierra Nevada in a couple of days and for your pre-Gero altitude block currently you're

sunning yourself on a Mediterranean, beautiful Mediterranean terrace. As am I, I'm in

Mayotka, you're in South of France at home but Larry generally how are things? Yeah, going

pretty well. I had a few days off after I did strata, tirano and then Milano Torino and

then yeah it took about four or five days off the bike and then when skiing on the weekend

that was nice. Where were you skiing in fact? In Easola 2000 so yeah where we often go

for altitude training but yeah it's only an hour and a half drive from Nice so it went

up just for the weekend just to switch off a bit from cycling but obviously still had

the tune in to the final of Sunremo and yeah it was good to watch so yeah it was nice, nice

few days off. Now I'm back to the grind so yeah. You're back at it and you'll be saying

farewell to your beautiful coat there's a boat temporarily in a couple of days. Larry we're

going to start, we're going to start, we're going to have a couple of news items and then

we're going to go on to talk about Milano and Sanremo. We're going to start with a couple

of other farewells. The first one regards a rider who is from a rider who is very much

characterised the era in which you've been a professional cycling. In professional cycling

let's hear from him, let's hear what he had to say earlier this week right now.

The day of today has come to tell you that it's the last season that I do as a cycling

man. So Larry, Nai Roman announced until you go night or sort of presidential address fashion.

I don't know if Larry I hopefully as many years away you'll be retiring. I don't know whether

you'll sort of summon the world, the world's media and announce your farewell in a similar

fashion but Nai Roman announced a couple of days ago that he will be retiring at the end

of the year Larry and will probably when he does retire at the end of the year he says

it's going to be a year of parties at every race. Have a look forward to that but we will

probably talk again about his great and his legacy but it did prompt me to just to look

back Larry on what he has achieved. As I say you've been in the Peloton most of the time

he has, he was just on 36th in time. A lot of GC victories over the years, Giro d'Italia

of well time, most famously one tirano twice, Pais Vasco Basque Country, Romondi, Burgos,

Tour de Provence, 51 wins in total and but I suppose a legacy that goes beyond just

those bare numbers really when we think of, when we think particularly of the 20 teens

every 2010 to 2020, one of the big phenomenons in professional cycling was the re-emergence

of the Colombians and maybe even more so the Negan Bernal who became the first Colombian

to win the Tour de France. This was really well, it was catalyzed by Nairo Man, wasn't

it? This not only his results in the way road but also this demeanor that he had, this

almost sort of mystical air about Nairo, I suppose it was a sort of a presidential

address when he announced his retirement the other day but everything he's done in

his career has had this sort of mystical, shamanic air almost so he's talking directly

into the psyche of the Colombian nation. I mean he does look like he could be a shaman

actually but I don't know, I mean the thing is I think from what I've heard is he's

bigger than cycling in Colombia, he's like a super, super big figure there so I guess

that then fits with his presidential address but yeah he's definitely been a big part of

cycling over the last decade, good and bad I'd say. Well yeah I was going to mention

that in the footnotes. I think what you probably refer to, so just to remind the listeners

in 2020, whether it was a series of raids on the Tour de France, his room was searched

and various fairly incriminating evidence, we learned later it was incriminating evidence

was seized and his doctor Fredia González Torres was actually charged and convicted for

attempting to dope, it wasn't Nairo himself and his brother didn't suffer any consequences

from this but that was the inference that they were the riders that he was trying to dope

so there was that and then in 2022 he had an excellent Tour de France, he finished sixth

on general classification but was subsequently lost that result, wasn't banned but tramadol

the substance he tested positive for, the painkiller he tested positive for was restricted

effectively banned in UCI competition so he lost that sixth place and that sort of

precipitated, well it was the beginning of the end of the Arquea team really, he parted

company with them shortly afterwards and yeah that certainly cast a long shadow over his

whole career I would suggest. Yeah I mean I guess that's a yeah it's a decent shadow

so yeah but I mean you know I guess that's happened numerous times in cycling but yeah

I mean he definitely got a lot of results over that period and yeah it was one of the

bigger name riders for quite a lot of years. Indeed indeed Larry, so that was one sort of

farewell we were given advance notice of this week, another sad farewell this week was

from the former Giriditalia race director Karmini Castellano who passed away at the age

of 89, now Castellano was the Giriditalia race director from 1993 to 2003 actually did another

couple of years sort of with Angelo Zomenian but someone we, what we always used to see

at the Giridita, obviously we have still seen him in the last few years whenever the

Giridita was down in Naples, Sorrento was where he was from he would always come into the

press room and sort of shake everyone's hand and he was that sort of figure a real kind of

ambassadorial figure and someone who did an awful lot for the Giridita as a race director he

first got involved in the during the 1970s he was involved in sort of organizing committee of a

stage that was taking place in his home region Sorrento and then he sort of looked after the

southern stages for many years until he became the race director in 1993. So a real sort of

ambassadorial for the Giridita in the south of Italy as well because as we know Italy is sort of

economically divided culturally divided into northern south and there hadn't been a well there

wasn't a southern winner of the Giridita for well until Daniela Deluca which was in the early

2000s so Castellano sort of was very important as well in in kind of raising a flag for the south

of Italy. Among these other legacies the discoveries of certain very famous climbs so the

Zoncolan first appeared under Castellano from its less famous side but also climbs like the

Colette de Lefinestre and the Mortirolo Castellano featured in a kilometer zero we did in 2019

about the Mortirolo and about his discovery as well of the Mortirolo he spoke to me then and I think

we can just hear a little clip of that now and we may we may repost that kilometer zero episode

about the Mortirolo so I attribute Castellano later this week. The Mortirolo was born in 1988

in the infamous year of the snow on the Gavia. After that there was a lot of controversy about a

stage which they said had flirted with tragedy with riders getting to Bormia frozen stiff. A few

months later we went back to the Valtelina for the Trofeo degli Scalatori which used to be three or

four stages long. That particular year we did the Gavia, the Madezimo and one of the climb whose name

I can't remember. Anyway on one of the evenings we slept in Sondrio in the hotel in the main square

and a friend who used to help us with events in the Valtelina came to eat with us as did Mario

Coltelli, the Italian national skiing coach who's also from the Valtelina. After dinner we started

talking about climbs and I was lamenting the fact that the climbs that did real damage were 2500

or 2600 meters high. They said no there was a climb just up the road that was only 1900 meters high

but every bit as hard as the Stelvio and which you could also go up in any weather the Mortirolo

they called it. They said that we could go to see it the following morning but they picked me up

early and they didn't take about an hour so that's what we did and sure enough I was bold over

because it didn't lead up for a minute. Now our road curves which killed any momentum right there

and then I said okay let's give it a shot. This episode of the cycling podcast is brought to

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and in stores. Well Larry you assured us that in spite of your little skiing trip of the weekend

wasn't it you were keeping a very keen eye on your teammates your tutor post- biking teammates but

also Milan San Raman in general we talked about it Lionel and I talked about Lionel and Stanley's not

here today because Larry we have to fit this episode in around your training schedule your training

your training schedule and Lionel's training schedule weren't compatible this week hence

anyway and Lionel and I obviously discuss what was what we agreed was an electrifying was the

adjective I used Milan San Raman on Saturday night for aribe a little bit more dust has settled

since then Larry a lot of a lot has been said about what an amazing race it was was an amazing

achievement it was with Pogaccia but what were your what are your sort of main takeaways

what were your main takeaways while you watched yeah I mean okay in the end I thought that Tade would

win but I didn't expect the race to go down as it did you know but I don't know who was saying this

maybe yes I wrote Kevin remark and I think he was saying that I don't know if he read this

somewhere I heard it somewhere but that someone was saying and I agree with this is that this

crash of Tade and the others actually like maybe played into his hands because it made the effort

first for the chupreza longer you know because in the end the guys like Vander Poe and you know I

don't know who else but I don't yeah I guess Von Arr you know they it changed like a nine minute

effort into maybe a 15 minute effort you know and that actually definitely plays in the hands

of Pogaccia which I I thought that was kind of an interesting thought and I think that's also true

but yeah I mean I think it's interesting to see how it played out I think we saw a lot bigger group

behind this year because there was this crash and then I think there was a bit of hesitation

at the bottom not that it was like they were going slow but I think if there was no crash before

and UAE had gone into the bottom and started pacing straight from the gun I think the pace would

have been a lot higher the whole chupreza and I think there would have been a smaller group

there and then you know into the bottom of Pogio so that's interesting I think it's super

impressive that Tade was still able to win because you know it's not exactly a race that suits him

incredibly well because he's not I mean he's obviously the best rider in the world but you know

he's more of a climber than you know he doesn't have like the world's best sprint but after 300K

sprints pretty damn good so you know I still think no one would have even maybe call them to win

with a K to go you know because I'd still say Pidcock in my head would have a bigger better kick

than Tade but you know even leading it out from the front he was still able to take the victory so

that was pretty crazy yeah I think we need to give him Pidcock a few more flowers a few of our

listeners after either the weekend so that we hadn't focused enough we hadn't talked enough

about how impressive if Pidcock's ride was we'll we'll endeavor to do that in a few minutes but

and Larry I just wanted to go back to what you said about the moment when he did crash and

while I mentioned in the intro we've subsequently learned that he also cracked his frame how much

impact that had we do not know but when he did crash we then saw at the bottom of the

chupreza teams who we didn't necessarily expect to see at the front of the peloton up there I

think it was foldering our sort of Jacob yeah yeah and he also there as well and a couple of other

teams sort of sniffing around and it was difficult it's always difficult to tell on TV how fast

exactly they're going and I suppose the only measure or the certainly the measure that a lot of

people use was how quickly and easily Pogaccia seemed to be going through them and from that they

deduced that actually the pace wasn't that high sort of giving light to that a little bit was the

fact that he did ultimately break the record on the chupreza but I listened to a French podcast

this morning in which they they were speaking it as though they were comparing it to Larry I don't

know whether you're too young for this but 2003 very famously Lance Armstrong crashed on Lucille

then in the Tour de France and he sort of collided with the spectators he got snagged on a

spectator's music definitely remember that music there you go and well this caused at the time

what happened was that all of his rival so Jan or Rick and Tyler Hamilton that you remember so

they all slowed noticeably slowed and over subsequent months this became a big polemica because

Armstrong then he wrote a second book in which he said I don't think they waited those scumbags

and it went on and on and on but to go back to what I was saying on that this French podcast I

was listening to this morning at IMC and Corn Plateau they were talking as though this was a similar

scenario that it was clear that everyone had just sort of sat up and waited for Pogaccia because

of his status in the peloton that's not why I saw that is not why I saw Larry yeah no definitely not

I mean I was actually surprised when I was watching so you know I actually didn't watch as it

happened I really watched after but you know so I knew the result but then when I looked I was

like wow they still were going kind of full you know I mean full yes they were going full you know

I mean I'm sure there was at least 500 watts which obviously is not easy but I mean I think they

were going marginally slower than if it was UAE going full from the bottom but I think they were

going very fast because in the end you know regardless of who crashed I mean even if Pogaccia didn't

crash it's always a crazy fight into the bottom of suppressa and it was still a crazy fight and you

could see how fast the peloton went into the bottom of suppressa and then if you do make it there

in the top 10 wheels you're not just going to sit up you know because then everyone's going to come

around you so for sure they still went very hard maybe slightly slightly slower than if it was UAE

going as hard as they possibly could but you know I mean maybe it could have been like

maybe after like a couple minutes they maybe went a tiny bit slower but not I don't think because

they were waiting for Pogaccia or more because I think everyone's like oh what do we do you know and it's

like I think there was disorientation wasn't yeah a few riders talked about that

Hormang Khaiguaal talked about that he said no one really knew what was going on yeah so I mean

I don't think they waited you know even though I mean yeah he didn't need them to wait

but I mean even it would have been nice or something but like I don't think it was like

people waited on purpose or anything so another aspect that we briefly mentioned on Saturday but

again maybe relates to the Armstrong the controversial Armstrong in 2003 and this this is a

phenomenon we do see fairly regularly Larry is the the bigger adrenaline rush after a crash

and whether that was a bit of a propellant for Pogaccia as well is that something that you've

experienced and it's common knowledge among riders that you can go maybe a little bit harder

faster after a crash if you need to yeah I mean maybe I still think it's crash takes a lot out of

you but I do think I mean the one thing I'd say like the adrenaline rush does is like for sure

you don't feel the pain of the crash as much right after you know like I mean you feel the crash

way more after the race than you do in the race you know in the race you don't feel that much so

yeah that's probably the extra adrenaline but I mean maybe I mean I read yeah an article where like

Bonifacio said oh for sure like the adrenaline helps him go faster after a crash I'm pretty sure

he would have gone just as fast as if he didn't crash you know so you know maybe even faster but

this reminds me this reminds me the story that we we pursued in vain for several days on the

jittery thai a few years ago I don't know if you were there Larry we'd heard a sort of urban legend

that balka mollamar was stopping for a pee at the bottom of climbs just before climbs because

nothing to do with the convoy and getting shelter in the cars because he supposedly had concluded

that it was beneficial for him to to to chase hard before a climb and that this subsequently

affected his performance in a positive way on the on the car when when we finally spoke to him about

his I think he laughed this out he laughed as out in the mix zone but anyway I don't know how

that started or who spread it anyway I mean that's a pretty funny one but I don't think anyone

to be purposely extending the effort of the climbs that's for sure um um and Larry a couple of

other things I wanted to mention something about we we don't often learn new things about Pogaccia

but something I learned at the weekend and there was this great quote from him about only going

back to Sam Rayma for focaccia of course Sam Raymo is in Liguria famous for its focaccia the Italian

flatbread um he said yeah I'll only go back in future for the focaccia in Sam Rayma um his name

Pogaccia is supposedly etymologically supposedly derived from the Pogaccia which is a sort of

version of a variety of a focaccia like bread no way in Slovenia true that's in true story um

certainly because everyone calls him Tade focaccia but I I just thought it was because

Pogaccia sounds like focaccia true story Larry I also I hadn't even I read an even more elaborate

explanation which was the same person who told you about Balkamalema and on a similar

and similar same theme um Pogaccia and relatives and friends who come to a wedding party from

the bride's side and bring a Pogaccia they are known as Pogaccia in Slovenian um I believe

anyway um how that relates to Tade Pogaccia's future in Milan so I don't know Larry do you think he'll

go back uh I think he'll still go back whether it's next year or another time but you know I think

I mean he really wanted to win that one and I think it really caused him a lot of stress

not being able to win for so many years you know because I think it's the only race that he really

said is mine too that he wasn't able to you know come super close to the victory you know I mean I

like to me you know what was last year his first rubé and he was second or something you know it's

like I'm pretty sure Rubé it's going to be easy you know I mean not easy but like uh more

achievable you know because like the differences in strength really come to the fore in that race

whereas like you know in Sanremo as long as someone can stick on his wheel they'll probably be able

to beat him in the sprint um so I think it was so uh I think it was just a lot of stress for him

because he's like I think he probably also which is he wants to win all the five monuments right and

that was probably the most difficult one so I think he probably wants to avoid that stress for a while

and it's a stressful race as well so um I could see that's why he wouldn't be in a rush to go back

but I imagine at some point he'll go back um but yeah you know I mean he like revolved this whole

winner training around trying to win Sanremo you know he was like I think he said he was three times

a week in the gym this winner trying to uh just be able to sprint faster and you know like

just for Sanremo essentially because he just so wanted to win so um you know I think he'll be happy

to have achieved that goal and I don't think he'll be in a rush to like yeah go back because

I think it's going to be hard to win it again you know yeah yeah yeah I mean we said that we can

it was like bottling lightning for a ride of his characteristics um which made it all the more

sort of exciting and impressive um Lionel um Lionel um Larry next on my list of Pogachon Sanremo

related topics um a lot of people on social media talked about motorbikes after the race on Saturday

now there is there is an element of talking about motorbikes Larry I've noticed after big bike races

is a bit like sort of telling a way to the wine is called it's it's a little bit like a kind of

signpost and you know you really know it's a kind of it it's an insider sort of it's an insider

observation it's like to signpost the fact that you really know what you're talking about if you

start talking about the motors I find personally that as an arm chest spectator we're generally watching

on the TV it's quite difficult to tell to what extent the motors are affecting the race and it's

also Larry I've very often heard a very often spoken to riders after races who have said the

motors have affected the peloton and on other occasions obviously they talk about the motors

affecting and benefiting the brakes so it can sometimes seem like six or one half a dozen

of the other there is no doubt that in Milan Sanremo historically and we've talked about this

before but if you go back and look at clips from the 1990s that you get a vast phalanx of

motorbikes in front of the the lead riders in front of yeah particularly when someone attacks

on the podge I mean it's laughable on Saturday there were four or five motorbikes in front of him on

the podge I'm particular you're not right sort of in front of his front tire but pretty close

however it does strike me that this is kind of everyone knows and you know as a rider you know

that this is available if you attack if you strike the first blow um you know if Pidcock had

attacked it this advantage would have been available to him as well so to say that Paul Gatcha

beat Pidcock because of the motorbikes is almost to be oh they're saying it's because

I thought maybe I could see them saying like wow they were able to hold off the peloton or something

because of the motorbikes but I think that's fine for us maybe fair okay yeah yeah because like

I mean Pidcock has the same advantage being there with podge char you know so I don't think

that had any bearing on first and second but like you know I mean sure maybe you could make the

argument that like if there were a bunch of motorbikes super close um I mean maybe if they weren't

there maybe like the peloton would have a better chance but I mean yeah I mean it's just going to

be a recurring issue in cycling until it's only drones filming us you know because like

I mean for sure they have a big effect on the draft and you know but again yeah I mean

I would say 80% of the time if they're helping the breakaway they're also helping the peloton you know

so you know I mean it's tough because I mean yes 100% motorbikes

impact the race you know but to whose benefit I don't know you know like uh because

yeah I would say most of the time if they're in front of the peloton they're also in front of

the breakaway in vice versa so yeah yeah I mean it's just part of the nature of filming the sport

with a motorbike you know yeah yeah I mean it could be the case that proportionately on average they

do favor the the strongest rider in the race that you know obviously that advantage is most likely

to be available for the guy who does get an advantage so over the years I'm sure Poghatch I was

probably benefited from motorbikes to greater extent than than the other riders because he's been

off the track on his own I mean the other thing in Italy there is this sort of phenomenon in Italy

and with Italian media and I think it's definitely partly explains why it was so egregious it used

to be so egregious in Milan San Remo but they absolutely adore a superstar and an icon and I

think you're seeing that now with Poghatcha and you know if I'm when I'm spoken to for example Mark

Cavendish about this at the due to Italian the years they did the due to Italian races like Milan

San Remo it's it's um it's almost it's almost embarrassing the extent to which they do sort of roll

out the red carpet for icon stars heroes and I think I can well imagine that the motorbikes

lingered a little bit longer or were allowed to linger a little bit longer sort of in the name of

that kind of objective of getting their brilliant shot of Poghatcha at the weekend no for sure I mean

yeah that's also probably true but I mean I mean there's also stories of like TTs and the Giro

and stuff and like you know the home rider has the randomly has the or just by chance has the

motorbike in front of him very very very close and then you know the guy may be happy to win the race

or something you know like but I don't think that's the same in a road race you know what I mean

I mean yes for sure it impacts a race but you know I don't think it's like there's any conspiracy

you know around it or anything you know I mean that's just the nature of bike racing uh whether

that's yeah bad or good or well I don't know okay last thing on Poghatcha um Larry um obviously after

did win at the weekend one of one of the narratives for this year and we knew it would be a narrative

was going to be how boring everything was with him winning that sort of receded a little bit

on Saturday because it was such an exciting race so we didn't get so much that but what we did

we will get this year is this sort of bifurcation I think of those being seen to sort of celebrate

and there's likely kind of real coverage about Poghatcha and um the the sort of background

murmur and what's more than the murmur in a lot of cases of suspicion and we've had some quotes

and some coverage since the weekend there was a former French rider who some listeners may have

heard of Erwan Mintio who's quotes after the race of the weekend got a lot of airplay I'll just

read a couple of things out he said frankly I'm hallucinating I watch Poghatcha race win repeat

crush the opposition recover and start all over again I just can't swallow the fairy tale we're

being fed rider who almost never slumps who moves through the seasons with such insulin consistency

who seems to be able to do everything everywhere all the time he should spark something other than

automatic applause um as I say we're gonna we're gonna get a lot of this this year

well yeah I mean there is an element of that Erwan Mintio just to give you a bit of background

he in 1997 he was one of the first three riders to fail a blood when blood tests were introduced

at the start of that year he was one of the first three riders of three who failed at the same time

and he then later wrote a sort of teller or kind of expose about how he adoped and he became a sort

of born again kind of evangelist for anti-doping of interview him in the past he's become a

race successful sort of lifestyle guru and he's someone who is not who doesn't have a lot of

contact with the word professional cycling um nowadays and I which is not to say he's not in

title to his opinion um but it did just strike me the weekend that um it can feel quite bipolar

at the moment in the coverage of cycling as I touched on a minute ago on the one hand as we get

the sort of vibesification of the media and everything is you know pictures on or sort of

reels on Instagram of people celebrating and going crazy about Pogachar and and um that style of

coverage and then on the other hand sort of reactions like I've just read I mean it's becomes more

and more important that me and I'm not talking about you Larry you have a different role in this

but me as the sort of old school meet the kind of legacy media um we

maintain a sort of sober and open mind and um we remain skeptical it's our job to be skeptical

not suspicious and you might say well what does skeptical mean and that's kind of a difficult

question to answer but I suppose um a better word to use is open minded yeah that's what I was

thinking open minded yeah yeah but I mean it's the same for me you know it's like

I mean you know what to me it's a bad way to think about it is like just because someone's so good

to question them you know what I mean but again you know like you can't rule out the possibility that

you know someone anyone could be doing something you know um but uh

uh you know to me I just really don't like you know and I mean it's the same in the peloton

you know I think a lot of guys are like oh my god how can he be so good you know but I'm like

there is also the chance or probability that like this guy just happen to be born

the greatest cyclists that ever lived and he just happened to pick up cycling you know this

in this era or whatever you know like that that is a very real possibility and you know I think

people think like there's a lot of riders they think like oh I work so hard you know like

I can't imagine how anyone could be so much better than me because I work so hard but it's like

yeah but I mean you know I mean I'm sure unfortunately performance isn't like linear to your work

ethic you know what I mean it's like it's not like the harder you work the better you get you know

like sometimes you work too hard you know then it gets worse you know so you know that's

I think a plus and a minus of cycling because it's maybe beautiful because you can't calculate it

but then it's difficult if you're doing it because like yeah you can work so hard and it doesn't

always work out and so I don't know it's something that I you know maybe some people call me naive

or whatever but I mean still I think like it's possible that there is just someone that's so far

in a way better than everyone else and you know it happens once in a couple lifetimes and maybe

that's Tata you know something we've talked about before Larry as well is that a team but teams in

general have developed enough knowledge over recent years to engineer races to make sure that the

strongest guy i.e. Pogachar wins more often than was once the case and you know we've talked a

lot about these these fast starts to races and sort of riding at 35 kilometers now in the first

hour was never was never the sensible way if the outcome you wanted as a team was for the strongest

riders to win because you had the strongest rider allowing the first sort of hour or two hours

to be ridden at 35 kilometers now 40 kilometers an hour was never the best way to do that whereas

you know we've talked about these fast starts and often it's UAE or put their sort of engineering

that they're ensuring that that happens and that in more often is going to not guarantee but it's

going to favor the strongest rider winning would you 100% yeah I mean no it's definitely something it's

I mean it's just happening more and more you know it's like Tyranno for example I mean some of the

starts were ridiculously hard you know like the first hour was the race were just unreal hard you

know and then you have to do even harder off of that you know and that didn't used to be the case

you know it used to be like yeah you know you kind of settle into it and then say it was a crescendo

towards the finish you know and now I mean yeah like Tyranno was so you know we use something called

like TSS to like sort of measure how hard a day is and a week is and you know it's sort of like a

measure it's called training stress score and it's a measure of how hard you know a day like a race

is and like the TSS of Tyranno was the biggest week I think I've ever had in cycling I didn't measure

against grand tours but I also talked to some other riders there and for them it was the same so

you know and compared to the last years say it was like at least 10% harder maybe 15% harder than

the last year so you know it's just every year that's just increasing increasing increasing and

increasing and I think it's because of the way we're racing you know it's like you don't just

get these easy moments it's just like on all the time and yeah okay we had one easy day but it

was also because the weather was shit and you know so yeah I think I just explain just explain

how as I said that in more often than not that will ensure or give the the best rider a better chance

of winning so yeah I mean it's maybe obvious but no but I mean the difference now is for example

guys like you know Pogaccio or Venga Guard these kind of guys you know they train in a way that

you know they're more durable as people like to call it so you know they I guess the gaps between

riders increase more and more the harder the day is so I guess in the final right so if you have

like a super easy day say take like UAE tour a lot of times UAE tour it's super easy and then

it's one super hard final climb you know and there you can see different riders being successful

as you would in a classic you know like a liaison flonders things like that or even you know

a mountain stage and a grand tour that it's like you know four coals or something you know so

I guess the harder it is over the course of the day the real like the really like great riders

they the difference just magnifies because they're the ones who are still able to do their best

effort after like five super hard hours six super hard hours and I guess a lot of guys are maybe only

able to do that effort once or twice and not like five times so that's where you just see so for them

riding super hard the whole day say it puts out you know 30% of the guys from the final so it

just makes their lives easier also um Larry I shared some exclusive proprietary research with you

recently and I had my study of first hours in grand tours over the last six years and just to give

the numbers on that since 2020 the average speed first hours in major tours so in 2020 the average

was just under 55 sorry 45 kilometers an hour in 2020 and in 2025 the average speed for the first

hour in grand tours was over 48 kilometers now and it's gone up every year it's kind of looking

at the moment anyway that Larry is that I think that was all I wanted to say about

about pull out char oh that was the last the last thing Larry just you said you talked there about

kind of the mood in the peloton feeling in the peloton and this is you've been an important

gauge of this four hours over the years because we've spoken about this a few times but

how is the needle has the needle moves over the last three or four years as he's one more obviously

as he's become more dominant do you hear more of that than you used to a different volume

no I think it's always this has been it it's been about the same I don't know but you know it

happens more I mean to me I don't know why these guys would be like crazy about the San

Ramos thing because it's like I mean he still barely won you know to me what would be like more

the one that people would be like how the heck is this possible is like strata you know

because then he just smashes everyone you know and goes 80k to go and whatever you know I mean

that's the one I can see people questioning you know for San Ramos to me I'm like I mean he won

but it wasn't like he just absolutely destroyed everyone you know I mean I mean and again

maybe that's a race where like you know there are much smaller differences but still like

yeah I don't know I mean so I wouldn't say like after San Ramos I heard anything more I think

actually to be honest I think a lot of people are like damn that's pretty cool you know like

that's pretty badass he was able to win it you know at least to me I was like wow that's sweet you

know that a guy like that can really like set his mind to something that even if it's not like

his bread and butter he can still win you know yeah but uh but yeah yeah and when I talk about that

open-mindedness or sort of skepticism earlier that is always good that's going to be a sort of

constellation of different things different factors that you might hear or might you know it's a

puzzle that you put together and okay some people might say that there's tiny nugget hint of

something about Mark Soler a few weeks ago that might be in some people's head that might

sense you know turn a light bulb on and then you know obviously we know the history of Mara

Genetti and and so on and so forth and you know various sort of light bulbs might be going off

but at the moment that it's pretty sort of thin evidence it's very thin evidence I mean I

talked earlier about Night O'Kentana if we had two I mentioned two things about Night O'Kentana

two huge asteris if we had two of those with Pogachar then I would feel very differently

oh for sure for sure but I think we have zero asteris it's just like he goes really fast you know

yeah I mean yeah that seems to be the asteris that most people the the arouses most suspicion

yeah yeah yeah anyway Larry I was one one more thing about Pogachar is what the thing that I don't

totally understand is everyone hates on him making cycling less exciting but I'm like

I mean I think he probably will bring a ton more people to the sport like as every single

goat does you know I mean think like I mean people weren't complaining that like Usain Bolt was like

just smash you know they they weren't like oh my gosh he makes track and field boring you know

they're like holy crap like this guy is unreal you know people weren't going like Michael Jordan like

oh I mean this guy like he's too good like he makes basketball boring no they're like it's amazing

why is it that just now and cycling everyone's like oh you know I don't know like to me it's just

I don't understand why people again I mean for sure from the inside you're kind of like oh damn

you know like who got second right you know like but still I don't know I'm just like it's kind

of funny that people hate on him for being so good when in so many other sports it's like people

are more celebrated for being so good you know and as I said a few weeks go Larry it will all be

over very quickly as well when it when the time comes and when he is beaten and all the decline

starts it will happen very quickly so on that on that Larry and Tom Pitcock at the weekend to

some people's minds he may have staked a claim as the the air the next the next man in the man who

could slay the dragon what do you think yeah I mean I have to say I was not surprised at all

after what he did in Milano Tarrino because I mean to me his performance in Milano Tarrino was like

incredible because I mean the numbers on that climb were super high and then the way he attacked

at the end I was like oh my god you know like that was like an unreal attack you know so once I

saw that I was like oh wow this guy is gonna be like he's very much gonna be like I didn't think

pogo char would be able to drop him uh in sunray mo um but yeah I have to say his

important still his performance was incredibly impressive you know I I think people thought

when he went to q 36 5 that was a bad move at the start you know and I think he's just showing time

and time again that was actually like maybe the best move he could have done because then everything

revolved around him and he got all the support he could ever want so um yeah I mean he just

keeps showing like you know I think also people thought oh yeah they'd definitely overpaid you

know he got a really big contract but he's definitely showing that uh he's worth every penny they

paid so um that means good for him yeah it sort of feels like one of his old well it feels like

he's old mountain bikes set up sort of writ large where everything revolved around you know he had

a group of people all around him he was at the center of everyone's universe and that team

maybe he's the kind of rider that needs that you know it felt like that it felt like sometime

oh whenever another sort of competing um force or competing would be leader was kind of introduced

in any us it felt as though he got a little bit lost or he could get a little bit lost whereas

there's never there's never been any danger of that yeah yeah um indeed very impressive performance

from him um Larry it just occurs me pitcock curiously sort of snubbing or he's pivoted away

from the cobble classics your friend and compassionate Matteo Jorgensen has done the same interesting

choices I mean the Jorgensen one has already been talked about debated and so fight looks as

though it's working in the sense that he's certainly riding very well he might not be winning a lot

but he's certainly riding very well um what your thoughts on those two changes of focus for those two

riders I mean I think for both of them the Ardennes actually suit them better and I think it's very

hard to do both you know so I think it's better to focus on one or the other if you really want to

perform at your best um in either of them so you know I think for Matteo uh it's just yeah they

said okay we want you to focus on the Ardennes you know maybe they don't have a bunch of guys for

the Ardennes and that's like an important opening um whereas like maybe they have a few more guys

for the cobble classics so for them they'd rather him focus on the Ardennes and to me that's definitely

the move because I think if you are the strongest that's where you can really see the differences where

as you know in the cobble classics you have to be the strongest and you have to have good luck kind

of you know um I mean you also have to be just like a warrior and and he's really good at that

kind of racing but you know I think for both of those guys um the Ardennes actually do suit them

better um you know it's just they're more suited to their type of rider and you know they're both

just incredibly strong and especially on like five-minute climbs things like that so um yeah I

just think that's probably a good move this episode is also sponsored by NordVPN the fastest

virtual private network in the world I've been a NordVPN customer for a long time now and with

the Easter holidays coming up I find that planning a trip abroad is when my NordVPN subscription

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planning a trip over to see one of the classics in northern France or Belgium and NordVPN subscription

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four months extra for free now before I hand back to Daniel and Larry a quick mention for our

friends of the podcast program of episodes subscription gives you access to the full back catalog

of more than 300 episodes of kilometer zero that we've released over the past decade or so

and everything that we release in the upcoming year if you sign up for an annual subscription

the most recent series is called roadbook and it's an accumulation of memories and tips and advice

for watching the spring classics based on my 25 years experience of going over to europe to watch

the major races the melansan rainbow episode came out just before la primavera and the flanders

classics episode is online now if you're a current friend of the podcast those episodes will have

appeared in your feed automatically if you'd like to sign up go to thecyclingpodcast.com

every subscription helps to keep the show on the road and we really appreciate every one of our

listeners who chooses to support us by signing up as a friend of the podcast I've also bumped up the

Lionel of Flanders series recorded in 2017 feels like a long time ago now during the races building

up to the tour flanders we went to doisdorflanderun the e3 classic and gempwevugum as it was known then

and that five part series the Lionel of Flanders well I really enjoyed making it and I think a lot of

listeners enjoyed listening to it I bumped it up to the top of the feed so it maybe will wet the

appetite for the cobbled races to come also at thecyclingpodcast.com you can sign up for the

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the 1101 cappuccino that's more than enough from me back to Daniel and Larry. Well Larry we ended the

last part talking about cobbled classics versus Arden classics of course the cobbled classics are

coming they are imminent now and starting in the next couple of days in fact and Larry with

classics starting cobbled classics starting we are with Stacey Snyder our good friend is

making some cups again making a wonderful cups to which previously we featured in grand tours

which is making them for the cobbled classics this time they're going to go on sale on March 29th

like Sunday the day of Ghentvabelgum we're going to continue to call it Ghentvabelgum I'm not

even going to I'm not even going to going to even look up what it's supposed to be called now

Ghentvabelgum and so Sunday 29th March 10am us east coast time they're going to go on sale they're

listed they'll be listed on stacey's Etsy site which is www.ettsy.com

Fallslash shop fallslash Snyder that's SNYDER ceramics all one word and 50% of the profits will

proceeds will be donated to the West Lothian Cycle Circuit which we've supported or stacey

supported before with the sale of her cups and indeed the the homage to Richard Moore on the

Buffalo Bend up there on the West Lothian Cycle Circuit Larry it is classics season approaching

and well one of our regular correspondence friends voices that our listeners enjoy hearing on

the podcast Hugo Corvitz is practically wise beside himself because his necklace has been he's

already being invaded by the stars of the classics so let's take this week's visit this week's

detour to Corvitz corner be attentive for me hallelujah hallelujah almost all the big stars of the

one-day races have landed in our corner the hotels and bed and breakfasts are filling up with

cycling tourists coming from all corners of the world I can't leave my street without the cycling

popping up left and right heading to the out of Cuaramond or the mushroom hill and teem

and yet times have changed in the past the Adriatic was the ultimate test for the Ronde van Vlanden

at Easter anyone who didn't finish in the top 15 knew they wouldn't be competing for the podium

in Elden Arden it is really no coincidence that Tom Bono won Harlebycke five times and Fabian

Cancelara and Johan Museo three times each no a modern cycling everything is truly different

you fall for the Cipresa when the primavera and a two-man sprint if your name is Pojacar you stay

home this weekend and let the domestics race freely for a change Pojacar awaited the competition

years ago and found it one thing the world champion wrote Harlebycke once and never had to Evelyn

with the exception of the Strada Bianchi only the true monuments of cycling interest in

so for Harlebycke we end up with only Mathieu von der Pullen at Spiedersen it was not yet certain

on Tuesday afternoon whether van Arte would write Harlebycke 48 hours before the start he decided not

to go to Harlebycke and the only right hand to Evelyn as foreseen in the beginning of the season

only after Sunday did van Arte decide whether to add Dwarfsdur Vlandre Warren to his kettle Harlebycke

has always been a mini Ronde van Vlandrene but with the Carnabag big Strada and the Odokwarem on

twice now it becomes even tougher as if Harlebycke wasn't selective enough already

perhaps that suits Mathieu Spiedersen better the Dane had to wait until last year to finally

reach the podium and finish second behind NVDP the Danish X World Champion is a man after my own

heart he's the only one of the four leaf Clover riding through the sacred Flemmis weeks and good old

fashion style he starts any time and anywhere including Dwarfsdur Vlandrene next Wednesday

he is also the only one who can set a new race record this weekend he can win and we will have

for the fourth time on the Valla Krestrat that is a classic with a profile and tievaly his own

oh well nobodies you have to talk about in Flanders fields from Metalkarkutu wevelheim by the time

you finished saying the name of the race Piedersen has already crossed the finish line

Larry good to hear Hugo taking on bridge and railing as well all these name changes he's not on board

with either I wasn't even aware of the Depana one which is now what is it tour bruge that's going

on at the moment I didn't oh that's I was like I never heard of this race before because it's this

weekend I guess yeah anyway I saw I saw like some race tour bruge I was like oh that's a new race

interesting okay I didn't realize that was Depana okay in fairness in fairness they have changed

the name partly because the race has moved away from the Panna so there's at least some just

some justification their lesser and get very welcome has always moved around but it could still

have been called get very welcome what others have we had this year we've had Perry Rubey we've

had the Dofinay they're all caught something different now so you love to look them up I'm not

going to help you with that yeah but on Friday so we've got E3 on Friday which also changes name

every year but it's I think everyone knows that it's kind of the baby tour of Flanders and we've

got a bit of team news Hugo gave us that there's going to be no pogachar no van art at the last

minute he's pulled out and mass pedison we think is going to be there and Matthew van de Paul is

also going to be there of course van de Paul's won the last two editions well van art won the two

before that last year just your refreshing memory 80 grams just to go mass pedison to tried to split

the race on the timeberg he kind of succeeded dragged to van de Paul and gannered away with him but

then van de Paul rode away on the Uduquaram one with 39 kilometers to go and one by over a minute

Uduquaram one two a sense of that climb obviously one of the iconic climbs the tour of Flanders

this year so it's kind of been toughened up and made hilia again as is the as is sort of the the

fashion now in one day races around three thousand meters of climbing the new route there so it

should be an interesting one Larry you won't have gone to altitude on Friday will you yet you'll

be tuning in to me a little bit about shooters cobbled classics campaign what what you're you're

not involved but what is the team hoping for and who are going to be the stars yeah I mean I think

they'll probably be hoping for some good results you know the first the opening weekend went

pretty darn well with Trentine and Mozzato going third and second in uh Colonel Russell's

corner so that was great um and for sure it's going to be those two guys are probably going to be

the headliners let's say um you know I think Trentine he's on super good form and I think he'll

only be getting better um through all those races so yeah I think we can expect some good rides

from him and then yeah I think Mozzato he's like yeah he's a super good rider and he's just so good

in the bunch um and he's just yeah really good at being in the right place at the right time so um

hopefully we can see some good rides from both of them then we also have Rick Plymer's who's

pretty strong and uh seems to get better every year so I think the three of them will be really

like the guys to watch out for um unfortunately you know we did have Stefan Kuhn um but he is out

for the whole uh at least spring classic season so that's too bad. Larry obviously

well this is on new obsession to UCI points um it's the first year of the three-year cycle but

it's going into so first first season of three classics cobble classics is the priority

results the prestige per se of big results in the classics or is it points accumulation.

Well I think it's both you know I mean ideally accumulating points by prestige just

getting prestige as results you know so I think you know our team is definitely someone who's

like we focus on the win you know we focus on getting the best result possible um and points will

come with that you know they're never going to be like okay guys we want six guys to try to race

for a top 30 for the points you know they'll never say that you know it's like we work for the leader

maybe you know a co-leader but uh we won't be just like you know racing random small races just

to try to rack up a bunch of points but you know is uh the points Larry are they specified

is there any direct sporty for review have had any experience of any direct sportive who will

systematically mention how many points are available for every race day they give a briefing for

no all right at least not on not on this not in this team you know maybe in my last team every

once in a while they would mention things like that um you know I remember I distinctly remember

when sort of like the whole point sees system really started they had a meeting with us um presenting

like the best way to get the most points and we all left the meeting being like okay we just

need to send all the best riders to one point ones you know like like to to smaller races because

that's the way you farm points you know um but you know I would say with tutor it's it's not

they don't go like guys it's not never before the race they go we need to make sure we get a

bunch of points today you know but I can tell you that if we aren't getting a lot of points in

the race it's definitely something that's thought about and maybe slightly mentioned you know because

like it is important and we need to make sure we are you know consistently getting points but it

is a shame that this has been become such a big thing in cycling now because in the past this

was never something everyone considered you know like no one cared about the team ranking before

and now you know in the last three five years it's like the thing you know and now the UCI

I've got all these shields with podcasts like me who are I'm promoting this agenda because I think

it's like lips I think it's like it's open up alternate storylines you know like I will say last

year at the end of the season it made for some interesting alternate storylines about like races

inside a race you know and you know even just things like Astana everything you know that was a

pretty crazy storyline that like what they did last year you know everyone thought that would have

been impossible before so you know it definitely makes for some interesting yeah different stories

Larry I don't think you'd have heard it but a few weeks ago I had a conversation and we released

it as an episode a conversation with Tom Sodom who's a direct sporty 30F and one aspect of the race

for points that he highlighted which most of us and I wasn't aware of and I don't know how much

this was Tom sort of Tom and his team are generally broadly against the relegation system or they

don't have a whole lot of time for it but one aspect that he highlighted was that he thinks that

sometimes these race for points well out of sight and out of mind of most of us off camera because

it's happening you know further back down the road he thinks that it can be dangerous at times

because it's happening where you know there are team cars everywhere the commasers aren't looking

and there are guys sort of sprinting fighting in some cases almost literally for 30th place

blah I mean I don't think that makes the racing more dangerous you know I mean

there's always been guys fighting for 30th place you know it's just now it's actually

matters you know like now actually 30th place can mean something in certain races but I definitely

don't think that to me that doesn't make the racing more dangerous you know I think

you know the most dangerous is the race for the win you know and for sure you know I mean that's

always been dangerous I guess but you know I would guess yeah the finals maybe they're becoming

more dangerous but not because of guys racing for 30th place you know yeah I promise you in

a few weeks we'll stop talking about points we're in that we're in that we're in the sort of

honeymoon period of just having disco just having really learned learned about this and we can't

stop talking about it now okay so you've you've got Trentine Mozzato and Marco Haller I guess

will be an important rider there so that's E3 on Friday and of course we've got getting very

much on Sunday where Mads Pedestan will be going for record fourth win and he's also one of the

last two editions going for three in a row and if you weren't for the fourth time in total that

would put him on his own as the only rider two of one four times and I was just based on the way

the little Trek road at the weekend and the way he rode himself he is in pretty good shape

and has a pretty good chance of doing that Larry find a thing I wanted to ask you about today we've

had a couple of stages and indeed the third stage is going on at the moment of the Volta Cataluña

Remka even a fallen action there young as being you've got among the the sort of

build topping riders but on the first day we had another victory for your former teammate

Dorian Godon we didn't surprise me I must admit and it didn't surprise me when he won the stage at

Pranese either because you've talked to us before about how strong he is on that kind of finish

and I've seen it myself I started the Giro del Veneto on Monte Berico a few years ago but he really

seems to be well developing sort of well yeah blossoming blossoming and he's becoming aware

of exactly how strong he is and exactly what he can achieve on the right type of courses

yeah you know I mean I think anyone who has been teammates with him or raised with him knows

how strong he is you know and knows how strong he's been because if you knew what you were

looking at in the past you know sometimes he'd start 35th wheel in a group of 30 and then be

third at the finish you know I mean like so I think now within aos they probably recognized his

potential maybe more than DeCathlon did and I think they've just enabled him to use that potential

well you know I think now he really has a full squad working for him in a final when it suits him

and then he delivers you know which is so cool you know I think if he he's the kind of guy if you

just tell him you need to follow this guy you need to stay on this guy's wheel you know he will do

that you know but if if it's just kind of like yeah whatever he's just kind of like yeah whatever

you know so I think probably being in a team like in aos that functions more like a well oiled

machine and you know probably has very concrete objectives and you know moments that he needs

to be at the front and whatever I think that probably works extremely well for him and now we're

seeing the results so that's really cool because yeah I mean I've known that he's been capable of

doing this and I'm just happy to see that uh yeah it's uh he's delivering and it's working out

yeah some guys not not suited to the French brand that particular French brand of Pauqua Pah

cycling you know yeah everyone yeah and Larry anything else you'd like to share with us in part

and before you head off and to to the heights and the other gossip gossip I don't know

you were talking about Mads Peterson and and I was thinking how I don't know we'll see if he's

ready because the other week my girlfriend passed him in training and she came home and she's

like oh I think I passed to to track people you know but I was going so fast I just went straight

by them you know and and I was like who do you think they were I was like I don't know you know

what did they like oh they were big when I was I was probably Mads Peterson she goes oh my gosh

can you imagine I passed Mads Peterson you know I mean they never caught me like I went past them

and they never caught me and I was like okay you know good job uh so you know maybe my girlfriend

should be a favorite for uh get well look at well your girlfriend is French so Pauqua Pah

Pauqua Pah yeah exactly exactly Larry and will you enjoy yourself up there in Sierra Nevada

and we will reconvene at some point maybe when you are in Sierra Nevada winding away what would

otherwise be boring afternoons um at 2600 meters altitude but yeah train well enjoy yourself

and um thank you very much for your company stay and thank you to the listeners as well for

their hopefully wrapped attention the cycling podcast was created in 2013 by Richard Moore

Daniel Freib and Lionel Burnie

hi this is Alex Cantrowitz I'm the host of big technology podcast a long time reporter and an

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is changing the business world and our lives so each week on big technology I bring on key

actors from companies building AI tech and outsiders trying to influence it asking where this is

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listen to big technology podcast wherever you get your podcasts