Sand Valley Deep Dive

0:00Welcome in. My name is Andy Lack. This is inside golf podcast. The PGA tour 2025, 2026 season is officially over had a nice little end to the season with Windom at BMW and Scotty at East Lake, although it wouldn't really count the single bullet Scotty plus 350 victory last week as half as impressive as a normal outright given his odds. It was a great year for me betting big huge rebound from 2025, which was a down year. And an even better year definitely for most people besides me involved in inside sports network, which I am really a very, very small reason for ISN's continued growth and success. The credit really deserves to go to

1:01Twitter, a Steve who has formulated the largest golf betting edge I've ever seen in four to five years of doing this seriously. Rishi, one of my business partners who is also an extremely sharp PGA DFS player and one of the best tennis bettors I've ever seen Kyle who had just another insanely successful outright season. Brian, one of my closest friends and host of Tapin Birdy, Kapper are producer Josh, Tyler Martin, who handles our projections, Chris, our website manager, Bobby RCFO, Bexico who handles all of our DP World tour coverage, Harris, who's kind of just a jack of all traits for us behind the scenes, our new hire Jack, who also won 100K a couple months ago at the Scottish Open, an incredibly sharp DFS player who will be helping a lot more with our in-house optimizer and tools and more of our quantitative stuff. He has incredible, incredible

2:03understanding of golf data, you know, that is genuinely unique. And he's looking at things in a way that I haven't seen anyone look at before our friends over at Data Golf who joined us on the major weeks and I've learned so much from them and they just continue to play a large role in helping me get smarter and just most of all the the best and smartest group of subscribers in our discord who you know is everyone from this kind of sharpest high stakes DFS players and bettors around market makers like really just genuinely sharp dudes that make the community and discord what it is to like people that just like to come in there on Sundays and sweat their bats and play really low stakes DFS content or contests and are really just there for the sweat and the jokes and the

3:07hang. So a huge thank you to everyone involved in making this such a a dream job and such an easy job to do running things when I'm surrounded by such incredibly talented people and we're just getting started some of this stuff we're adding in the offseason I think is really going to be loved and take us to a different level in terms of both some quantitative modeling tools that we are looking at as well as just some generally better product stuff to enhance a user experience and we are full steam ahead for the US Open Tennis and the fall swing have had a lot of success in the fall swing in the past and super excited for this year's fall swing. The guys that stick around and are engaged with golf during the fall swing generally definitely see huge benefit as it's a really great opportunity in a time of the year when not a lot of people are paying attention and a lot of people have their brains in football mode so a huge thank you to our team

4:09and subscribers on an incredible year as we turn the page to next year we are going to do a ton of presidents cup stuff at ISN starting with a podcast with Mike Coxing who helped redesign Medina. I played Medina a couple months ago it's awesome I loved it I have a lot of thoughts about how the golf course is going to play but this is also a time of year where I get to do some more golf course golf architecture golf travel type stuff so this solo podcast is going to be me talking about San Valley I returned from there a couple weeks ago it is truly a magical wonderful place a lot easier to get to than band and dunes if you are on the east coast or obviously in the midwest and I did a podcast like this about band and dunes recapping a trip there and giving a lot of

5:10recommendations in terms of travel food my thoughts on the golf courses etc you know that people really seem to enjoy and still reference and talk to me about so I thought let's run it back and talk about San Valley and hopefully this can be helpful to anyone planning a trip or considering checking the place out I also want to say right off the bat to frame the conversation by giving a huge shout out to fried egg and will nights who runs their events I went with fried egg on this trip and will did such an incredible job of putting this together to back up just a little bit I am as many listening know a massive massive Seth Rainer CB McDonald fan my favorite golf course in America is the creek I think the best golf course in the world that I've ever played is national

6:15golf links of America the golf course that I played every day in high school at my boarding school is a Seth Rainer nine hole golf course at Hachkis so when the widow opened at San Valley this is like my most anticipated golf course in the world to play I will talk a lot more about the shortly but essentially you know there's a CB McDonald golf course built in the 1920s that many at the time believed to be one of the greatest golf courses in the world potentially even CB McDonald's masterpiece and we're talking about a guy that designed NGLA the creek piping mid ocean St. Louis Yale I mean these are amongst the cathedrals of American golf and that golf course was lost to time the original version of it on the Long Island Sound no longer exists and hasn't

7:15existed since the 1940s when the government converted the land to a naval base but the drawings and original sketches of the widow still existed so a guy named Peter Fawry who I'll reference a little bit later in the podcast open source all of these vintage photos modeled the golf course in software and then Tom Doke and Brian Schneider and their team built an exact replica of the original Lido in Wisconsin at San Valley and it opened to pretty rave reviews and immediately I kind of felt like I just really needed to see this place my favorite golf courses in in the world or many of them are on Long Island that's where I learned to play golf so the Long Island CB Mac connection I I just felt like I really needed to prioritize seeing that golf course over any other and this also corresponds with around the same time I was getting engaged I wanted to do

8:24a golf bachelor trip with a bunch of my groomsmen many of them are really big into golf and golf course architecture as well I had already been to band and dunes twice so San Valley in 2026 was like the goal for me that's a trip that we wanted to do but it's not easy getting a group of sex to San Valley I'll circle back to that a little bit later but we kept striking out trying to get this big group of us to San Valley this year eventually to the point where I was actually just like guys I think we should pivot to Scotland so that's what we did and we're we're actually headed out to Scotland in a few days but I personally never gave up on seeing the Lido this year I basically was just like I don't care if I have to go alone I need to see this golf course this year

9:25so you know I have a very good friendship with Joseph Lamagna at the Friday egg I have played in one of their events before with Joseph and got a little closer with Brendan this year we did a pod together at the US Open I met Will Knight's their events coordinator briefly at the event I played in with Joseph a couple of years ago and in general I am just a fan and consumer of their stuff in in general but the deal with these events you know it's just not really a world I love and outside of that loan event that I played with Joseph a couple of years back whether it's Friday egg or golfers journal or I don't know any corporate outing or the world of auctions and paid a play not a world I've spent much time in there's always a markup as there should be when you're getting access to a course and getting an experience curated for you

10:33so you know I before doing it I looked at sand valley Friday egg trip and I to be honest ran like a very stringent price comparison of what it would look like financially for me to go to sand valley alone or even with one buddy versus what it would look like to go with the Friday egg and like I say this completely honestly I paid full price and have no like official partnership with them that would require me or or any reason to say this it was like shockingly barely any money more money to go with the Friday egg I found and so I figured why not pay a small extra amount of money to get to go hang out with hang out more with Will meet a bunch of new people again I've never really played in events like this and I'm certainly very blessed to have built an incredible

11:37network of like-minded golfers that I love to travel with and see different places with but in turn I feel like I can be a little anti-social sometimes in terms of like being open to meeting new people that are also super into this shit and I kind of you know have done a decent job just kind of doing the same thing often with the same type of people and relying on my network and playing with the same guys at the same set of places and so I figured it'd be a really good idea for me to give it a shot and legitimately you know I was blown away I really was and again not just saying that because you know I've that friendship with Joseph and I I certainly got a lot closer with Will on that trip too but I just think that it is

12:38important when a place or a business makes a huge difference when people say this about ISN I think it's important when a business that makes your life easier or you are a fan of or you consume a lot of their stuff and they really knock it out of the park and are doing something great for golfers and something that obviously benefits me and also may benefit the people listening to this podcast then they deserve a proper shout out and some praise and what Will has done with their events again I don't have much of a frame of reference here I'm not a golfers journal guy I haven't really played in any other events like this but I was shocked with again a how fair the price was but more importantly be how well will run it was how efficient it was how easy they made it for

13:40you once you got on property to just turn your brain off and not have to worry about anything logistically the itinerary they created was perfect and I met a lot of great guys on that trip too so again just a huge shout out to Will and fried egg to frame this conversation because the experience that they helped me out with certainly contributed and framed one of the reasons why I had such a great time and if it wasn't outstanding I wouldn't have talked about it or or made it a part of the podcast I would have just focused on the courses but you know I think this podcast is also meant to be informative to others in my position and I know it's not the easiest thing to do right now to get a big group booked at San Valley or band-in or Ireland or Scotland or or any place and I'm sure there are a lot of people out there like me that have gotten to the point

14:45where they are almost like want to give up on trying to get a big group and still find a way to go see these places but also want to not have to worry about anything would definitely highly recommend at least like giving the fried egg treps that they do a look and you know you can do your own price analysis or whatever but it was totally a no-brainer for me and I'm super happy I did it the Lido by the way is a semi-private course so there's no guarantee that when you book San Valley you are not guaranteed to get on the Lido it actually has pretty limited access for resort guests earlier early in the week I believe you also have to stay at the resort which kind of limits the ability from of people from Chicago and Wisconsin that like drive for the day and really want to go play the Lido so again big shout out to them and just San Valley in general

15:55because I will talk a lot more once I get past how I felt about the certain courses just like the whole experience of it and what to expect when you go there and what I would prioritize doing in terms of some of like the more logistical stuff and how it's different than band-in how it compares to band-in etc so anyway let's get to the golf so San Valley what is it how did it start this resort is owned and operated by Michael and Chris Kaiser who are the sons of band-in-dunes founder Mike Kaiser and you know this is under the dream golf umbrella so if you've been to band-in-dunes before there are a lot of similarities in who designed the golf courses the general vibe the food the rooms the amenities they they basically saw how well band-in-worked and and wanted to recreate it in the sand hills of Wisconsin with a

17:01couple of tweaks and I think a lot of those tweaks would fall under perhaps architectural diversity uh the golf courses at San Valley all have a little bit of a different ethos which I'll talk about I feel the same way about band-in I think the golf course that band-in all have a different ethos too but it felt very deliberate at San Valley um so what's kind of dive into talking about the the namesake the first golf course that was designed at San Valley San Valley the first golf course at the resort was designed in 2017 by Bill Koran Ben Crenshaw open to very good reviews this is without a doubt a top 20 public golf course in America it is my second favorite golf course at the resort behind only Lido it's a short shuttle ride from the main lodge many people know it for their

18:04incredible one dollar tacos at the turn and ice cream sandwiches uh and you know as the namesake and first course built at the resort I think this is a better golf course of band-in-doons um you know it's not generally rated higher than band-in-doons because band-in-doons is on an ocean but I'm a huge Koran Crenshaw guy band-in-trails their first golf course at band-in is one of my favorite golf courses ever um and walks in America and actually think the second golf course that they did at band-in sheep rants has actually become like incredibly underrated by the rankings um and has kind of become the golf course at band-in that gets the least amount of respect in rankings um perhaps because it's the easiest just like

19:05mammoth dunes and I actually think that sheep rants is actually probably a better golf course than the David McLeod kid designed band-in-doons um for what it's worth I also think that Koran Crenshaw designed the best golf course at stream song they have designed I've not played sand hills I'm obviously dying to play sand hills but they have designed um my highest rated ever modern golf course which is friar said um I don't count Lido as a modern golf course uh but I do prefer Lido to friar said uh and I do think that at sand valley resort there is this big notion that mammoth dunes is like incredibly easy and sand valley is a lot harder and I think that gap is a lot smaller than people

20:09make it out to be I found sand valley to be really scoreable really playable really fun very engaging for high handicapers I played with a high handicap or that she shot their best round there as opposed to mammoth um with that being said I do think it like I do get why people say that it feels a little more serious than mammoth some of the greens have you know couple more dramatic false fronts than mammoth you know and obviously there are a couple holes at mammoth that you're just like okay they are really giving you the opportunity here I'm like 14 to have somebody that carries about 210 yards make an eagle um which you're not going to have those opportunities that that loan opportunity at mammoth you're not going to have that loan opportunity to make an eagle like that at sand valley so I I do understand it in that respect and

21:11certainly do think mammoth is easier I don't think like the gap in easiness or or the the narrative that mammoth is too easy to be enjoyed by high handicapers is or excuse me low handicapers is where I would actually push back quite a bit in terms of you know some good golfers might find some of the features and stuff that is going on at mammoth gimmicky or annoying I'm not one of those people um I don't think I'm good enough at golf to have that opinion about mammoth honestly but we'll touch on mammoth next I do think like I said sand valley has more of um despite like the scale and width not being larger necessarily than mammoth it has a bit of an adult golf course kind of feel to it where I

22:13certainly think it's definitely too easy to host like a men's professional event um but they're a couple more greens and a couple more challenging shots out there that kind of engage with um this kind of dramatic sense that you're out there playing a big boy golf course and there's a lot of width off the tee still really big greens and and I just think that core and crunch I have such a high four like I've never played a core crunch at golf course that is below a 7.5 out of 10 for me um and and you know sand valley has a really interesting unique routing there's five par three's five par five's two semi-driveable par fours including the first hole alternate fairways on three different holes six seven twelve it's either twelve or thirteen there's center line bunkers on

23:14ten sixteen awesome center line bunker on eighteen it's highly strategic really phenomenal playing surfaces like incredibly firm I was blown away by the conditionings at sand valley so like again because of band-ins climate it's not band-ins fault that it has worse conditioning than sand valley but sand valley was like really um it I was it was so remarkable to me how this public golf course that gets so much play really had you know as good conditioning as as I would expect to see from a private golf course that that gets far less play the greens were really firm at sand valley it was a I mean all of the courses but it was a huge standout to me at sand valley maybe I just caught it at the right time of year but the golf course drained incredibly well

24:20we played it the morning after a thunderstorm and I was just like it was remarkable to me how quick that golf course firms up and there's still a lot of like two is a remarkably good golf hole seven I loved really phenomenal strategic par five with kind of a blind alternate fairway nine I could see being a touch controversial in the same way that that drivable par four on the back nine of band-in-trails is but I loved it 13 at sand valley is awesome total banger k-bass goal 17 this blind long punch bowl uh and then eighteen is really really fun as well really fun uphill par five with a really cool green sight it's a pretty flawless presentation of a golf course like it's a really good namesake for the resort

25:22uh if you combine which I've done top 100 golf courses.com golf digest golf.com slash golf mag I don't view the opinions of those three places equally by any means but I kind of like creating a composite ranking out of those three to see where everything falls sand valley is currently 95 in the composite rankings of best in america I certainly haven't seen like all of what the candidates would be for the best golf course in america but that feels like quite a bit low to me um there are a number of golf courses that are rated ahead of it that I prefer it to I prefer sand valley to subonic I prefer to madina number three I prefer to congary I prefer to nana I prefer to yamans hall I prefer to quake a ridge

26:27prefer to olympic club banded dunes uh I prefer to the ocean course I prefer to okel I certainly prefer to baton page black I mean those are all golf courses that are rated ahead of sand valley most of them private um and I think that it's better than all of those golf courses in my opinion I have it 29 all time for me and it is right behind the likes of some golf courses I hold in like extremely high esteem like garden city bel air raviara san francisco golf club it's very very good sand valley uh and I have it like slightly above golf courses like tree farm chambers bay which actually thinks to become very underrated brambles which um I'm extremely fond of uh and then like again banded dunes subonic sheep ranch madina stream song rad nana okel

27:34ocean course I have it slightly ahead of all those like I think sand valley is really really good mammoth dunes second golf course on property designed by david mcclay kid par 73 measuring 6,988 yards enormous fairways big accessible greens very exposed sand hill sides um it's currently ranked a bit below sand valley it's not in the top 100 in america composite but it is top 25 public in the country so not far behind sand valley but not considered a top 100 golf course um and generally thought of as a touch weaker than sand valley so mammoth dunes has an interesting reputation and spread where there are a lot of people generally high handicapers that are like this is the most fun golf course on property

28:36this is the best golf course on property shout my best round here this is like what golf should be and then I've also heard very good golfers or maybe they're not very good they're just have this opinion as well that the golf course is too easy um what is the value of a fairway if you hit every fairway what is the value of a green if you hit every green is there actually any strategy at all um and that the golf course is not engaging enough for a low handicap golfer you know I have to say like my index is 1.9 I think most would consider that pretty good um I would really side with high handicapers actually in this debate I think the spread and difficulty between sand valley and mammoth is not as great as people make it out to be

29:36um I found mammoth a little more challenging maybe than what I feel like is the consensus on the golf course and it's not like I played terribly by any means um and you know it was not a golf course to me where you could just turn your brain off and it was devoid of strategy there are some golf courses where I do think you can do that where I think it's very easy to make a lot of pars and really hard to make a lot of birdies and mammoth actually felt to me more like it was pretty easy like you do have a lot of chances to make birdies even though I only made three all day but that it was not all too forgiving to the point where strategy was diminished I did a lot of thinking on t-boxes um you know even on the drivable par fours

30:39and I do think the one on the front is a hell lot better than 14 on the back but I had a lot of fun thinking about where you had to land certain golf shots and I don't know I think that this is a might be a better David McLeod kid designed than band-in um you know he had this run of designing more penal golf courses when he first started band-in t-throw you know he famously said like he designed t-throw when he was going through divorce and he was really angry t-bc stombray castle courses St Andrews and a lot of those weren't super well received um and then he kind of responded to the criticism and seemed to go really hard in the other direction with gamble sands and mammoth dunes and perhaps the answer for him is somewhere in the middle with a golf

31:45course like nanae which I think is a little bit more of a realized total vision than mammoth I have nanae a little higher than mammoth you know a bit higher than mammoth not by a crazy amount but mammoth scale and routing is pretty remarkable to me and you know maybe you can argue two-thirds of the holes have greens that feed the ball in and only six that repel and maybe the course would feel a little more varied and diverse if that split were like nine and nine but I don't think that playability and challenge um need to be on opposite sides of one scale um you you could build both like both and and you could build both and I think the best golf

32:46courses have both um my favorite golf courses have both the Creek L'Hinge Valley Column Monocito Pasitimpo those are all super super playable golf courses for higher handicaps that are still demanding and engaging if you're a low low handicap or um you know and and I would challenge you to play uh the 7000 yard tease at mammoth which I did and loved um and like if you really contend that again if you really contend that it is still to gimmicky for you play mammoth from 7000 and sand valley from 6500 and see where you score better and maybe the answer for you is still mammoth um I don't think it would be for me uh and and you know these golf courses are were built so well to accommodate all sorts of resort guests um but I do think mammoth would like

33:50still totally work as a private club I I think like the criticism some of the criticism I see at it has gone a little bit too far um and it's the type of golf course that is certainly what multi-course resorts should be attempting to emulate six it's like a really interesting drivable four with maybe the most fun green on the course eight I think is an awesome par three like really cool natural green site 10 really good driving pitch hole um you know again like I understand the criticisms about this golf course but I don't entirely agree with it it's a solid 7.5 for me which is not a top 100 in the US but I wouldn't really be offended if anyone snuck it in the back end there um I think it's better than definitely a few top 100 golf courses I've

34:54played um it gets better than Quaker Ridge um higher than like stream song block I actually like it a little bit more than that um I have it a little below like very good you know I have it a little bit below country cup of scranton tamarack kiawa rustic canyon stream song rad danne a queer tier below sand valley um and I do have it slightly below all the banded courses um but again like I don't feel very strongly about that um and I think you can make the case it's better than banded dunes the golf course also designed by david mcclay kid um I suppose I guess I just don't really agree with the sentiment that it's devoid of strategy for better players but maybe I'm just not good enough to appropriately analyze that critical line of thinking um I want to talk

35:56about the sandbox and commons very quickly before I finish with sedge and lido the sandbox was the next golf course that was built par three course 17 hole is par 51 kind of figure eight routing with some template greens a berets redden um people love the sandbox I thought it was great um I did potentially controversially did not prefer it to the par three golf course abandoned the preserve um which is also core and crensha I've not played shorties yet uh I think the land is so much better at the preserve but again sandbox is like a no brainer plan the afternoon after an 18 hole round such an easy walk um impossible to not have fun again I didn't find it to be as remarkable as a preserve um the core crensha par three that is that banded which is kind of my frame of reference when thinking about resort golf course par three is I I haven't played

37:03um the par three course at pyners which I'm very eager to do uh I have played the chain at stream song uh and I would probably prefer uh sandbox to the chain but I would prefer mostly everything at at sand valley to stream song um stream song is good I I don't dislike stream song but uh sand valley in totalities it's quite a bit better in my opinion um and realistically when I compared the preserve to sandbox you could make a very good argument that the fact that core crensha did more with less makes the sandbox a more impressive design um you know that's an argument I'd I'd be totally open to and then with the comments which I did not play I've heard it's excellent cool opportunity for Jim Craig long time shaper who worked with core and crensha and appear

38:07super well positioned to get more future Kaiser opportunities this is his first solo design it opened like three months ago I love this idea like you know if you've played 18 in the morning and want to play a 12 hole par 45 golf course I definitely uh like the concept of that uh I think golf can be too long um for a lot of people when you're introducing it to beginners I don't have much of a problem with the concept of like trying to try out 12 hole golf courses uh especially at resorts um where you're gonna get some beginners uh you know I like do I think that they could have built an 18 hole golf course I mean they have like an insane amount of land they could they could build a couple more 18 hole golf courses but when they already had the sandbox

39:13and sedge do I think that they needed to make this 12 holes um no you know like you really only have like two legitimately resort accessible golf real golf courses at sand valley and sand valley and mammoth um a lot of people like don't even consider mammoth that serious of a golf course because Lito is semi private and bandin has like five legit golf courses like five legit say what you want about sheep ranch you know bandin has five legit grand in scale par 70 par 72 golf courses um so you know like I think the 12 hole concept is fun interesting um I you know I'd still be really curious to see what Jim crack would do with an 18 hole golf course um

40:15not trying to be like a uh traditionalist there but um I think it's a fun idea but I don't think that sand valley you know would be hurt by like adding another real 18 hole golf course that unlike the Lito was a little bit more accessible for all resort guests um so I you know I'm heard great things really curious to see what Jim crack could do with an 18 hole golf course but I'm sure he'll receive that opportunity at rodeo dunes or old shores um he's definitely in the Kaiser pipeline uh which is not a bad place to be uh I'm going to do sedge and then Lito even though that is not the correct chronological order because I just want to finish with Lito um but let's take a quick break and then talk a little bit about sedge valley okay we are back um sedge valley

41:19par 68 5800 yard tom doke golf course where doke um is certainly drawing some some real inspiration from some great uh english hithyl and golf courses rise when we forest the adding 10 west sussex um you know a lot of these golf courses that are short sub par 70 like world class have stood the test of time and I think tom has talked about wanting to show people that you can build something brilliant without caring about the modern status quo of this golf course needs to be a par 70 it has to be this long to be taken seriously and I love what he's going for I totally get that and I want to preface this by saying I haven't played golf in england or played the golf courses that

42:25doke is trying to model here I've read about them I've studied them uh but I but I haven't played them so I want to preface what I'm about to say with that context um but to me like I got super excited reading about these golf courses and studying these golf courses thinking that in sedge I was going to get a golf course that felt like it was designed by a hairy cult or tom simpson and to me like it felt like a like a distinctly tom doke golf course um you know and that's a call like I love tom doke golf courses I am a fan of like you know what he does with some of his bold green design um but you know I I think like this kind of like english heathlin style of the golf courses

43:29that he described um as inspiration show this like extremely high level of restraint not just in like the length of the holes but in the green design of like you know there's just greens at sand valley that are excuse me at sedge valley that are awesome but like would have never been built in 1880 in england um and that's fine it still makes for like an amazing golf course it's amazing routing um and there is like I don't want to act like there's no restraint like there's definitely way less start moved here than sand valley that's super apparent um but you know when I played this golf course I just kept thinking to myself like oh this is this is such a tom doke golf course this is this is more of like tom doke doing his thing with a little inspiration than tom doke trying to recreate something from 19th century england and and maybe that is the whole point

44:35I may have like somewhat misinterpreted the way that doke talked about this golf course where it seemed to me like he was he was really trying to do more of a strict homage to those golf courses um and take a lot of his personal style out of it in exchange for that 19th century english style and under that guys I felt like he did some of that but not a lot of that um um but the end result is still very good um and maybe I'm being a widow too harsh in that like I was super excited to play this golf course because I haven't played anything in england and I was hoping it would perhaps give me a taste of that heathland style that I've read so much about um and I just maybe didn't feel that as much as some of like the writing and talking um and

45:44intention of this golf course states um kind of felt like yeah maybe this is more of like a mixture of like swindly forest and stream song blue or bali kneel but definitely like a lot of stream song blue or bali kneel in there especially in some of those greens I mean 18 for example that's just like such a tom doke green um and that again isn't as much a criticism of the golf course as much it is um maybe a little confusion of intent um the golf course as a whole at a macro level has some incredibly strategic holes like if you think about 12 drivable par four super interesting and deceptive that's a golf call golf hole where like you have these deep bunker short right and tons of short grass left and you actually want to be in the bunker short right I was

46:49visually deceived off the tee and tried to go left pushed it right was in the bunker short right that look very intimidating off the tee and I had such an incredibly easy bunker shot against a backstop and then I looked at the people that went where it looks to be the easiest bailout spot off the tee and you are totally dead if you are long left despite the fact that visually everything is telling you to play left everything off the tee is pulling you left that's just brilliant strategic architecture like that's just straight up one of the best holes at sand valley full stop um you know but the land is lighter um and I don't know if the architectural brilliance maybe overcame like the sliteness that I felt that would maybe put this galt that would require me to

47:55like there are so many slight isn't the right word maybe like more subtle you know more flat golf courses like a garden city for example I think like the architectural merits of garden city I put garden city ahead of like golf courses that have exponentially better land like way more dramatic features way more bold big contours um in many cases in ocean like I put garden city ahead of all those golf courses on its architectural merits because the strategic design is so good and the greens are so good and sage um to me like kind of almost got there but I I don't know if for me personally the the architectural merits of the golf course um overwhelmed like the lack of scale that I loved at the other two sound valley golf courses still a very solid seven seven point

49:03five for me um I think it could be like the total hipster pick for like this is absolutely the best architectural golf course at sand valley um I think reading some of the fried egg stuff they certainly prefer it to sand valley or at least mammoth dunes I don't want to speak for them um um I didn't completely have that experience but I've only played at once and I'm eager to go back and open to changing my opinion because there are definitely some people that I really trust and respect that um are a bit higher on it than I am you know it is like a very interesting counterpoint to mammoth um you know kid that mammoth is so maximalist much more with more space and d oak seems to be responding to that and saying we actually need to dial it back

50:11despite d oak like somewhat being responsible for that trend you know like being responsible for like a lot of the width evolution kind of being at the forefront of width um so it's kind of a cool evolution from d oak to see him kind of evolve and say maybe we went too far with courses like mammoth dunes we need to get back to our English English Heathland roots here um um I just didn't feel like I was able to totally grab onto that ethos in the way that I hoped I would um I almost got there and maybe I would get there on second and third viewing um but very well could be a me problem the Lido already gave the Lido introduction it's a CB Mac golf course that was lost a time in the 1940s when it turned into a naval base the original site was um

51:17168 acres of tidal marsh on the barrier island between the Atlantic and Reynolds channel they pumped more than two million cubic yards of dredged sand out of that channel 35,000 tons of top soil sathirainer obviously um the engineering mind behind it all it opened in 1917 and was amongst you know when opening like it was named with pine valley and gla say the injuries is like this might be the best golf course in the world um Bernard Dardwin called it the best golf course in the world Walter Hagen offered a very similar sentiment and you know at this time period it was like Lido or pine valley as maybe the best test of golf to exist and going back a little bit to 1914

52:20country life ran a golf hole designed contest sponsored by Mcdonald judge by Bernard Darwin Horace Hutchinson and Herbert Fowler and the winner was an unknown surgeon at the time by the name of Alistair McKenzie and his multi-route two-shotter became the Lido's 18th hole and launched a career of who I would argue came to be the greatest architect ever do it the only architect in the world to have the closest thing to three consensus world top 10 golf courses in Cypress Point Augusta National and Royal Melbourne West um you know and that's saying nothing like I haven't played those golf courses that's saying nothing about like Pustyempo and Valley Club a footnote here though the contest also produced what became the 15th hole from Tom Simpson named strategy and Seth Rainer

53:27even entered the contest himself and had the runner up entry dog leg which became the six hole you know which is actually very similar to the 16th hole that Rainer designed it went on to design at Chicago Golf Club so from a nerdy architectural standpoint you can probably tell why me caring about all this stuff why playing this golf course was really exciting for me um but the like the weight of expectations can be a difficult thing like you saw how it perhaps unfairly affected even my enjoyment of said valley um and my expectations for this golf course just so sky high when I think about McDonald and Rainer are responsible for my two favorite golf

54:27courses on the East Coast you know in the Creek and NGLA and you even have like an Alistair McKenzie designed hole who's responsible for my two favorite golf courses on the West Coast in Pustyempo and Valley Club and again like I haven't even played any of Alistair McKenzie's best golf courses consider these best golf courses in Cyprus a gustor of Melbourne but I imagine those are even better uh right so I mean this is just like right up my alley in so many ways and the back story of how it came to be and how it was recreated so honestly you know with Peter Fawri and how he used Lidar data and a simulator program and how he got introduced to Mike Kaiser um Andy Johnson of the Friday egg deserves a lot of credit there introducing Kaiser to Fawri Kaiser Jr to Fawri or Sto the Sory goes um and then you know what Tom Doek and Brian Schneider were able to do

55:29in terms of bringing that vision to life um and Brian Zegarn in in terms of how this turned from like computer model to a golf course all that stuff is a whole separate podcast it's almost impossible to talk about the we know without like diving into the back story of how it came to be and while I don't have enough time on this podcast to totally do that back story justice I have become so obsessed with this project and golf course that I'll probably do a whole other we know deep dive um on my own uh as a separate podcast just to give that back story and the people who are responsible for it they're just do in terms of the golf course itself the the contouring was built from ground up which is really notable uh when you think about the original McDonald like could not dig very deep

56:30into this land because he would hit muck so he had to build up and that is why the Lido has so many of these big dramatic pushed up greens it's also why there are a lot of blind shots which I happen to like um but everything is very pushed up raised big bold in a very deliberate way and like the only other modern golf course that I have played that has as big bold dramatic features as this um in terms of like man made is old barnwell which was also designed by Schneider and is a huge personal for favorite of mine and I think some people may play the golf course and say you know this is why it sits on the opposite spectrum of mammoth dooms they may say that

57:34you know this is not a golf course for me because I don't like blind shots um and it's not going to be a golf course for everyone if you don't like blind shots you're going to have to reckon with a lot of that the Lido if you don't like getting stymied sometimes if your execution is poor you're going to have to reckon with that at the Lido you know if you are a high handicap or who struggles with lack putting or chipping to like raised tabletop greens or getting out of deep green side or fairway bunkers you are going to have to reckon with all of that at the Lido um but my counter to that would be well um it works so well at this resort because this resort also has mammoth dooms who I've already heard from everybody they think it's too easy so there's probably a lot basically

58:37every single golfer it probably either going to love the Lido or love mammoth dooms okay because you're getting almost everything in those two golf courses and probably a lot of golf courses a lot of golfers that love the Lido and hate mammoth dooms is probably many that love mammoth dooms and hate the Lido but it's like impossible to hate both they're diametrically opposed to each other and that van diagram is like pretty hard to see existing um you know and there's probably even a bigger category that I fall into what I really like mammoth dooms and the Lido is like an old time for me and that's what makes it such a brilliant addition to the resort even those technically not a resort golf course you know and I have met some really smart Raiders that have played everything and think the recreation was too dramatic um they don't like the

59:39amount of blind shots it's too disorienting for first timers too much sensory overload and I frankly understand all that I do respectfully disagree um really to the point where I mean I would argue that it is maybe the most strategically inclined golf course I ever played in my life um and I would probably guess that if this golf course this exact golf course the one that is sitting on sand valley right now in Wisconsin if this golf course was on a notion I think it would be considered by many to be one of the greatest golf courses in the world and it right now is probably one of the greatest golf courses in the world without a notion um and you know like a lot of the criticism of people that say it's too hard for high handicapers I mean are people saying that about pine valley

1:00:46which is viewed by like which is kind of like the consensus number one golf course in the world because I have a hard time believing that there's a harder golf course for high handicapers in pine valley um it might be more vexing and pine valley again consensus number one the world it like it might be more vexing for high handicapers it might be more confusing for high handicapers but I played with high handicapers on this trip at the Lido and they at least didn't have that experience um it was their favorite of the trip so again like I understand why that criticism exists but it was also not built to be a resort course to satisfy high handicapers mammoth dunes exists for that reason and the fact that you can go to sand valley and experience both is what makes it so great um the fourth hole channel is like the most unique par five I've ever played as probably the chalk pick for this the the quote unquote signature hole on the golf course

1:01:50I don't like the term signature hole but um I think a lot of people will play channel hole and be like I've never played anything like that before it's maybe the most heroic par five I've ever played 15 at valley club eight and 13 at friars head um but it's like in the pantheon for me of most interesting par five's I've ever played um it's got the best k-pull I've ever seen it's k-pull is like might be better than ngolays k-pull it's got the best hogs back I've ever seen um creek old mac come to mind there as other great ones it's got the best alps I think I've ever seen like you know their short hole like the thumbprint just works really well on that green 17th long par five with the massive false front that's an incredible whole incredible golf

1:02:55incredible par five 18th the home the the mccenzie hole like biggest wildest green I think I've ever played 12 is an awesome punch bowl that reminds me of Chicago uh Chicago's and so many ways it's got a great redan um the berets you know hole number eight you know if that hole which in the original design had an ocean flanking it you know if if the berets had this berets had an ocean to its right I think this would be viewed as like the most photographed and dramatic like one of the most photographed in dramatic par threes in the world I mean it it just has so many versions of like these bold and fully realized templates um that I've ever seen and and you know this is why I first walked off it and I was like oh man this is it feels like Chicago golf club on acid this is like when a director is coming off a big hit and he's got all the juice in the world and

1:04:00he just like goes for it um but unlike Paul Thomas Anderson going for it in magnolia the lido does not feel overindulgent it does not feel like mcdonald is just out here loving the smell of his own farts um there is restraint there is a lot of subtlety it's not a difficult walk it doesn't bite off more than it can chew it's not excessive you know it may feel like sensory overload in the same way that like old barnwell the first time you play it feels like sensory overload um you know but from everything that I've heard rewards more and more the more times you play it and again this perspective that I have in my ability to articulate why it's like maybe the best strategic golf course ever played um or at least the most engaging uh you know is a perspective that

1:05:01I got from playing it one time I'm only really scratching the surface and there's probably so much more for me to discover the second time I play it the third time I play it but like golf architecture is your shit um then this is one of the more rewarding experiences I would imagine you could possibly have even if you don't like it it's probably one of the more rewarding and unique experiences you can have um it's like feels like required viewing to me um this is like what I would have loved architects having the opportunity to look at in the 1950s through 1980s when we like really lost the plot for a couple decades and built stuff like Tory Pines um I think this will restore your faith um in a lot of stuff if you're into it um

1:06:01um and even if you're not you don't care about golf architecture at all or the history of golf architecture or who designed what hole or where the inspiration come from or who won what 1914 whole contest even if you don't care about any of that stuff I think you will have a lot of fun hitting the golf shots and occasionally getting your ask kicked um but it's not like the Lido doesn't fairly reward great golf shots or is too baguiling to the average golfer um so yeah I think it's one of like the defining pieces of golf architecture to exist that I've seen um I tried to not be too hyperbolic in my praise and potentially failed but for me it's it's really in the category of the best the the best I've ever seen the my favorite stuff I've ever seen national Lahansh, Chinatown, Ballabunyan, Positiempo, Chicago Golf, LA North um it's it's up there 9 9.5

1:07:11out of 10 for me three out of three stars um you know very close to perfect for me and I think it would be like considered close to a perfect golf course if it had like that big defining water feature um so ultimately you know I like I think if I was ranking band and dunes and sand valley um I think Lido is the best golf course on either resort I put Pacific dunes two I put band and trails three I would put Old McDonald four you love me some Old McDonald I put sand valley five sheep ranch six band and dunes seven mammoth dunes eight sedge valley nine and it's pretty interchangeable like as you can see I probably like the David McLeod kid stuff the least but I also don't agree with the people that think band and mammoth dunes are like

1:08:12bad in quotation marks golf courses like I said sedge didn't quite get there for me but I also might not be educated enough to fully understand its beauty and intricacy and maybe you know if I took a trip to England and came back and then played sedge maybe I'd be like oh my god sedge is better than like anything at sand valley non-Lido decision um that might happen that's like the you know that's the beauty of this passion and highly subjective exercise um this is just my opinion on these golf courses and just like movies or any form of art I don't view my opinion higher than anyone else's um especially I don't like hold the view that you can't do uh really thoughtful golf course architecture analysis unless you've seen everything um

1:09:14and I've I've been really fortunate to see a lot but there's but I'm only scrounging the surface in what I'm seeing and I also know people that are really well read about golf course architecture and really care about it and I've read a lot of books on it um that have even seen less than me and I hold their opinion really highly so I always try and remain pretty teachable uh I kind of love the fun of like disagreeing and learning and comparing my personal tastes to others um but I hope I did a decent job of explaining what I personally um thought was interesting about each one of these golf courses and what was cool about each one and you know overall like sand valley is very easy to get to from the northeast um very obviously very easy to get to from Chicago if I lived in Chicago I'd make day trips here all the time I would make day trips to sand valley

1:10:16and mammoth dunes and sages and not even stay at the resort if I lived at Chicago and not even play Lido even though Lido is my favorite of the bunch but you know even from New York you know you can fly from a New York airport to Chicago Renacar you can fly into Milwaukee which is what I did it's only a two and a half hour drive you can fly into Madison which is what I did on the way home that Madison to Newark flight is super easy um I thought Madison was a great airport and you know there's something about sand valley maybe it's a midwestern vibe of it but there's something about it that feels more attainable than band-in feels a little more down to earth a little bit more casual a little bit less like you know everyone at band-in feels like this is a bucket-less trip because it's so remote and that aspect of band-in is really cool um it makes it feel really special everyone is

1:11:18happy to be there and everyone is so friendly and and I love that about band-in but sand valley feels a little bit more low-key the food is cheaper um the accommodations are just as great uh and I I think at these golf resorts my bar and standard for food is pretty low like do you have a great burger do you have a great breakfast sandwich do you have like a good snack at the turn maybe some good tacos or sausage roll I don't need an Asian fusion restaurant or a steakhouse with an incredible wine selection at these golf resorts I'm looking for a great burger um a great back breakfast buffet and like some some awesome tacos at the turn and kaiser just kind of nails it like he he he does both um there are some more like high-end places

1:12:21that have popped up a band-in a wood-a-bit less so at sand valley and this has talked about a lot in his dad's book about creating band band-in-doons which is a really awesome read nature of the game uh one of my favorite golf bucks ever but you know he basically talks about just get the golf right first get the golf perfect and everything else flows downhill from there and I think that's a big reason why band-in has been so successful and sand valley has been so successful is that the most effort and attention has been put into the golf first and everything else is secondary that sounds like an obvious concept but like if it's so obvious then why hasn't pebble beach company restored their golf course why do places lack in authenticity and I think right now there's such a high demand for this type of stuff that I have every reason to believe that

1:13:25old shores and rodeo dunes and wild spring dunes these three might kaiser junior projects old shores being in the Florida panhandle rodeo dunes being just outside of Denver and wild springs dunes being in Texas I have no reason to believe that the the demand won't be there for those places um and hopefully those places spread the well so that it's not as hard as it is right now to get on band-in and sand valley I have heard the criticism that like more variety of types of golf courses I think they're really trying to do that I would like to see some different architects maybe get an opportunity but it's so and he's doing that with like Jim Craig even though Jim Craig like is totally in the the core crunch of pipeline that that kaiser feels so comfortable with it would be cool to see

1:14:32Kyle Frans or an OCR get an opportunity at a kaiser resort but at the same time you know I think the playbook is really smart and every golf resort that he seems to be building especially when I heard him talk on Garrett Morrison's designing golf podcasts about his plans for old shores and rodeo dunes and wild spring dunes he is making every place a little bit different every place is iterating a little bit on the last every place is taking advantage of what makes that specific site interesting what makes that site different it is not carbon copy after carbon copy there are some calculated risks while still rolling back the tried and true play back and it's just like really hard to doubt anything he puts his hands on at this point you know

1:15:38Mike Jr. from listening to that podcast just seems to have like a real command of what works and how to make these golf courses these places feel really special and you know a lot of the golf courses at sand valley and band and dunes I think are a lot better than some of the private golf courses that are ranked ahead of it ahead of them so you know I couldn't say enough good things about the place and if you like this podcast let me know I'm about to head to northern scotland and we'll definitely do a big scotland deep dive and recap that trip upon return in the offseason as well as a bunch of other architecture content during the pro golf offseason once we get past thanks giving so I hope you enjoyed this podcast definitely leave a review or comment if you did let me know what

1:16:42you think of sand valley and go check out go go play sand valley I hope this inspired some to maybe start thinking about getting a trip on the books and we will see you back on this podcast feed next week with Mike cocking talking about Medina number three and the president's cup cheers