Sarah Nicole Landry | She Posted Her Real Body… And It Changed Everything!

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We're listening to Up the Vine with Caitlin Bristow.

Hey everybody, welcome to Off the Vine, I'm your host, Caitlin Bristow and I would say

there are certain women on the internet who don't just share their lives, but they shift

something within us and not because they're perfect, not because they've figured everything

out and it's aesthetically pleasing or any of that, it's because they're willing to exist

in the messy middle, which is where I love when people create content from for me personally.

So today's guest is somebody who without exaggeration has changed the way that millions

of women see their bodies.

She didn't do it with filters or before and after's or promises to fix anything either.

She just did it by showing up exactly who she is as a person.

So stretch marks, aging, motherhood, identity, loss, reinvention, and lately she's also

been navigating what it looks like to go through something deeply personal while the world

watches from the outside.

So she's the creator behind the Birds Papaya, which is, she's a friend of mine and that's

what I call her.

I'm like, hey, what's up Birds Papaya?

She's the host of Papaya podcast and someone who has built a platform not on perfection,

but off honesty.

And I love her for that.

We also do a deep dive on our PMDD, but anyways, we go off many different tracks and that's

why I love having friends on the podcast.

So let's welcome Sarah to Off the Vine.

I also just saw a clip from God, I'm so hard on myself.

I just saw a clip from a podcast that I did and I almost cried because I looked older.

And I'm like, that's what happens, Caitlin.

You are older.

Did we ever think, do you remember what, because we're both in our 40s now?

Do you remember what you thought 40 would look like?

Yeah, I thought I'd be in like pants up to my tits and like, well, I am in pants up

to my tits right now.

If you want, I can, I think they are.

Okay, wait, that's so fair.

I also like have my pants pulled up to, they are, but they're stylish.

But yeah, I would, I thought like, my mom now feels, looks, dresses cooler than she

did at 40.

And at 40 shoes and like flower print blouses and like, right, that was probably cool then.

Or was cool even a thing when you were like was, or did you just dress like you, my mom

was a teacher.

She dressed like a teacher.

All I know is that 40 feels like 28.

I don't know what anybody's age is anymore.

I think everybody's the same age as me, whether they are 23 or 50, I think we're all the

same age.

I have stopped being able to differentiate anything.

And I also just think like I, if somebody had told me at 25 or even 30 that like, I would

feel the best at 40 at 40, not 41, I would be like, there's no way.

But now I look back on photos from when I was 30 and I was like, oh, I actually like,

I actually think I'm getting better and I, and now I'm looking towards the future being

like, oh, I hope I look back on 40 and be like, ooh, 50 got better, just keeps getting

better.

There are moments where you're just also like our period hormonal phases have you ever

watched like videos where people like show their change of body and face through their

cycle and how much it shifts?

No.

So whenever I have like a moment where I'm like, why am I not connecting the same way?

Like I'm feeling a little off.

Like nothing looks right.

My face feels like it looks different.

Look at my cycle.

I don't know what phase it is, but it's like that's part of it where it's like, oh, because

you're supposed to feel more connected and more attractive in all these things when

you're like, ovulating.

That makes sense.

I mean, I pay attention to that stuff all the time, but not look wise.

I always pay attention to like, there's, I'll send you some videos.

It's so, so, so fascinating.

And I think, you know what I think is so interesting though, like just as a sidebar at all

of this.

Do you ever think about the fact that like, men are just moving through the world with

like a stable environment and we are moving through the world with, and like having to

manage everything with like a constant fluctuation, we have to, the fluctuation and it impacts

our anxiety, our moods, our ability to how we work out our sex drives, like all of these

aspects of our lives are impacted every single day by our hormones and by the cycle that

we live by.

And men are just like, I know, I get very upset about it because I go, God, if you only

knew, I wish men could just do, do women be one.

To win it.

I wish you a woman.

Yeah.

For one month.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Just to get all the full cycle and then see what they would do, but also, that will never

happen, so we just have to drill it in their brains.

But I'm also so proud of us because look how much we do while we're like bleeding and

hormonally, like all the fucking over the place, we both have PMD, that's like a whole other

beast to deal with.

I've a whole seven in here about it.

Well, lock in.

Yeah.

Time to go.

That's a whole segment.

I've got even though I talk, I feel like I talk about the same shit every podcast, but

I just get more information every time because I talk to different women.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's very validating and also, it's like validating, but it's also defeating

at the same time.

Do we try and scream into the abyss, but hold hands while doing it?

Yes.

I feel.

Yes.

Listen, I'm on a quest to like start a commune and I just feel like that's the, that's

the started.

I found land.

Oh, a reality show commune is like.

That would be amazing.

That would ruin the point.

Not really.

Well, we're going to show other people how to do it.

True.

We need a farmer, we need a baker, we need, and like you all just get the one thing and then

you support each other.

Imagine one of you has your period and you're like, I know what to do to set you all up.

Yeah.

It would be beautiful.

I just get so tainted by like even the camera, I'm looking at it right now and I feel

tainted by it.

I'm like, what are you going to make me look like?

What are you going to make me feel?

What are you going to do behind it?

Oh, yeah, it's going to make us feel whole, yeah, I don't identify all the time.

It's a very weird.

I have a weird pair of social relationship with my own self.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because we only see ourselves through the reflections that we see it.

Even like the way we see ourselves in our phones is different than the way that people

see you.

I don't like that.

That says me out.

Like if I change, like if you ever do like the inversion of the, like how it flips to

like how people would see freaks me right out.

Freaks me out too much.

Don't go for it.

Don't go for it.

Who is she?

Yeah.

But that's, I mean, your whole career started with one photo.

Yeah.

Which is crazy.

Yeah, it did.

And I cried.

I almost threw up.

I was going to ask because so many people know obviously the impact of it, but I'm not sure

everyone understands like the moment behind it.

Yeah.

First of all, your whole story and journey has been, and we've podcasted about this before,

but you know, new listeners and sometimes I even forget the full story.

Yeah.

So before you took that photo that changed your whole career, what was life leading up

to that?

Like log story short.

Yeah.

The elevator pitch.

Yeah.

I had been a stay at home mom and had really lost my identity in just motherhood.

So I decided just sort of in the loneliness of motherhood and wanting to connect with

other people.

Blogs were big at the time.

So I started a blog and I named it after my two daughters, which is Gemma Birdie and

Maya Papaya.

And there began the Birds Papaya.

Yeah.

And so that was 18 years ago.

Holy shit.

Yeah.

Cause my, the youngest, the birdie of it is turning 18 this year.

So that's, that's my measurement.

Cause I remember she was only like months old.

So she was maybe like six, seven months old when it started.

So yeah, we're coming up on 18 years.

So I did that as a way to connect with the world, but at the time blogs were all about

like your home and kids and your meals and like crafts.

And then Instagram came about and it was all about you and what you looked like and what

you were wearing.

And I was now postpartum after three kids and I had moved back to my hometown.

So I thought all of these things of like, okay, now I'm going to go on a weight loss

journey.

And I had a small following from the blog, but I grew a massive following.

Well, at the time, it was massive for weight loss.

My motivation behind it was like, I want to be able to live my life more.

I want to feel more confident.

I want to show up for my kids.

I want to do all of these things and go down this line.

And I, I lost confidence.

I became so obsessed with what I looked like I became obsessed with my size.

I slipped into disorder eating without realizing it.

I was a size zero, 113 pounds going from what?

I was 225 pounds in the beginning of it.

And I did this all without, I didn't have any financial access to support of like nutritionist

and fitness trainers or anything like that.

So everything was like very, very disordered.

But I didn't see it that way because everyone's like, you're losing weight, congratulations.

Like that is the story.

So I had to really start living life after the after photo, which was like, I was going

through divorce.

I had to learn how to like nourish my body, show up for my kids.

I'm working multiple jobs and doing all these things and I'm still doing this Instagram

thing on the side.

I'm still doing these before and after photos.

But in that, a lot of people would ask, like, why don't you have any loose skin or all

that stuff from like your weight loss?

And I was like, oh, like I do.

And I showed like one inch of it.

Like I dipped my toes in the water.

But in that, I was wearing, it was at the time called Nick's Wear, it's Nick's Now.

An underwear set and I tagged them and their founder DMed me and asked if I would show

up for a photo shoot.

I said, no.

Because my image was so controlled.

I only wanted to, I only wanted people to see me in the way.

And I was so obsessed with it.

And I was editing like all of these things.

So then I did go to the, she convinced me and I went and I assumed because I'm a woman

in society.

I'd have never seen stretch marks in anything.

They're going to put me in high rise.

They're going to cover it all up and they put me in low rise to cut my belly button ring

and the photographer was like, from a low angle and I was like, oh, no.

But that day was also so beautiful because then I watched the person who was like the professional

model on site.

She had stretch marks in cellulite and it was like this really empowering moment.

Long story short or short story long, those, those good.

I'm going as fast as I can.

I feel like I'm 1.5 speed, sorry for anybody who's putting this at 1.5 speed.

Yeah.

So then I, that photo came out and again, this is maybe like eight years ago now.

But at the time, you might be like, oh, yeah, stretch marks are normal.

At that time, I had never seen them on anybody else, let alone in advertising.

Now my image is being dropped into the ether of the world and in marketing and it's not

me posting it.

It's them posting it.

And I got to read the comment section from people who don't know me.

It's not my followers.

It's like literally customers and people around the world.

And I'm reading one after the other because I felt so sick.

I was like, oh, my God, this is like, this is, it's over for me.

This perfect image I had is gone.

So that so you felt exposed.

I felt so exposed.

I felt embarrassed.

And I felt to me, I had always looked at it through the lens of like, it's ugly.

And so now I'm looking at it and I have this beautiful smile on my face and I'm in this

underwear.

It's a, it's a beautiful photo.

But the comments really were where my life changed because in the comments was thousands

and thousands of women saying, I have never seen a stomach just like mine.

And what they didn't realize was that I was also finding out for the first time.

And suddenly this like thing that I thought was ugly was no longer something I was standing

alone in.

And I started being like, okay, I've lived in the shame for a long time.

I know now what it meant for me to see it and for what other women to see it.

And I just decided to go go for it and start sharing that a lot more into this day.

I work very hard around stretch mark normalization, postpartum body normalization.

I know that they all look different, but there's some really heavy statistics around women

in their postpartum bodies that really kind of drives me.

Can you tell us a couple?

Okay.

The one that like strikes me the most is, and I don't know where it's from, you're going

to have to look us up.

I said knock on my mouth, but I just know it.

There is a study that was done that said about 65% of mothers would love to have a full

mummy makeover, but they can't, they won't because they don't have access to it financially.

So this is not a conversation of like, is it good or bad to get a mummy makeover?

I believe in body autonomy, everyone do what they want, but you're telling me that six

to seven of all mothers are wanting that, but can't have access to it.

So where are they and what are they doing?

Are they showing up in their lives?

Are they feeling confident in themselves?

Are they able to see the beauty in their body without having that access to that?

Do they feel represented in media?

All of these different questions.

So I just sort of like listen, I've been offered full mummy makeovers, and there was

something about all of that event.

I always thought that eventually if I had money I would do it, and I just sort of sat

back and go, I just need to be the person that I really needed at the time that photo

dropped.

And I really, now I find it so there are moments that I'm like, ooh, I could go for, I

could go for like a little bit of everything.

But I really settle back in the fact of like, I really do believe this is beautiful.

And I think that we all deserve the right to show up the way that we want.

And I just would like to represent this one type and this one experience, especially if

we're going to be honest about it, it's the body did what it was supposed to do.

I find it funny when they're criticised, when stretch marks are criticised, because like,

what do you mean my body, my skin didn't rip open?

Yeah.

It actually like stretched and it moved and stretched a life.

It's just, it's so interesting.

And so yeah, I do it in a, in a, in a, and I saturate with it.

I do it a lot.

I show people and I show it often and I do it unapologetically because I need people to

stop feelings.

I want them to stop feeling sorry.

I want it to start being the same way that you can scroll a social media page.

I was looking at this model's recent and like her whole page as her abs are showing in

every single photo.

There's nothing wrong with this.

Right.

But there's no comments being like, why do you always do this?

But there is for me like, why can't you cover up?

Like why can't, like there's a, there's a need to like remove this discomfort for people,

but that's not my job.

I actually want to do the opposite.

I want.

I'm going to do it more.

Like you say that you don't, I'm going to do it more because I just think that there's

value in showing up and like just, I don't know.

I really want to change the way that we see ourselves.

You do bring a lot of value to the internet and every time I scroll, I don't stop and go,

wow, she's so brave.

I go, gosh.

Yeah, she's hot.

Listen, I used to do this like, let's do the brief thing.

Let's be brave and wear shorts.

Let's be brave.

And it was for a time.

That's what it was.

And now I'm just like, I'm not like, I just like, I think that's hot.

And I just, you can't switch out of that mindset once you're like, this is gorge, this

is hot.

There's moments that I don't feel that like, let's be clear.

But like majority of the time, I'm like, it's just, it's, it's whatever.

Like I actually feel great.

And so yeah, anyways, I was going to ask because you were met with so much love and support

and like, wow, I've never seen this before, but you were also and still continue to be met

with resilience on it.

Of course.

I'm going to ask you more about coming out there with, with this photo that you didn't

expect to, I'm assuming you didn't expect to change your life, but yeah, what surprised

you more, the love or the resistance?

I honestly don't remember a lot of resistance back then.

I think I know.

More now?

Yeah.

A lot more now.

I mean, so that went like somewhat viral.

And then I did Sports Illustrated Runway and that went very viral.

And so I really got a lot of both.

And it was really interesting because it was either women going, I didn't look like

that.

So why do you look like that?

Or was women being very, very grateful?

Like this is amazing.

Some people being like, I just don't think you have to show it.

And then there was a lot of men going, I don't need to see this.

How do I make sure that my wife doesn't look this way?

Oh my God.

How like Suzy that I went to high school with has six kids and she doesn't look like that.

And it's like, there's, there's so much going on.

But I think of the majority of people like men just say the stupidest things about it.

It's just because they have like such a lack of understanding and respect for a woman's

body.

I'm going to be honest.

If you look at the studies of like the what men are drawn and attracted to, I'm watching

love is blind right now.

And I'm just going through it.

Yeah.

This idea that women should look like a 18 year old body for the rest of their life.

I know.

It's insane.

And women, their attraction actually grows.

Men when there was a different statistic, different study, but like men's attraction

like almost always stays around the ages of like 18 to 25.

And women's grows with age like we actually, our attraction grows and this is not all men.

Like let's be clear, but just in these studies.

So I just think like are we actually going to create our beauty standards off of what

men are attracted to, which is like a body that we had at 18, which is just unrealistic.

We're not statues.

We are people.

We are beings.

Our bodies are going to change.

That's what they're supposed to do.

If we make decisions to change them as well, that's also amazing, but like change is inevitable.

So our existence and our value and our relationships can't be hinged on the one thing that's guaranteed

to change.

To change.

Yeah.

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I've just always put so much pressure on myself for beauty standards, but that's because

it's, I mean, I forgive myself for it because I'm like, well, yeah, I was, it was conditioned

into our brains.

We have to forgive ourselves.

And so like you're in a level of scrutiny that a lot of people maybe don't understand

unless you live through it.

It's hard to show up every day and get a review on what you look like, what your voice sounds

like, who you are.

That's, it's a lot for most people.

So I, this is why I'm like, I just have a lot of grace for women to make choices for themselves

because it is a difficult sandwich to be handed in life to be a woman in a body.

And so I always, whatever women choose for their bodies, like I'm here for you, I will

support whatever it is that you choose.

I, I really just, I think that's just the lowest hanging fruit is to hate on women and

what they're doing.

Yeah.

I think I want to take an axe to the tree.

Yeah.

I like that.

I like that a lot because it really, the low hanging fruit, I usually hate that saying

because it's usually used by scummy businessmen, but that is a very good analogy for me because

that's exactly what it is.

How did you get sports illustrated?

Oh, it's such a wild story.

I was actually in the middle of like, about to quit Instagram.

Stop.

Yeah, I was being bullied really badly and I just was like going through it.

It was new in my PMDD diagnosis.

So as you know, like each month, you just basically feel a level of devastation and loss

that you're just like, I can't possibly continue.

I was actually in the middle of shooting Nick Swim.

I was with Lauren and it was the day of a strawberry moon, the Lauren Chan, who's like

a sports illustrated model.

I love her.

It was the day of the strawberry moon, which is a wishing moon.

And Lauren said to me, Sarah, have you ever been to Miami?

And I said, no.

And she goes, we should do a girl's weekend there.

And I was like, I'm in.

That was it.

Flash forward to like four hours later.

And I had applied for sports illustrated for like many times, so there was no application

process that year.

So I don't know what happened.

And my manager message and was like, sports illustrated is invited you to walk their

runway in Miami this year.

And I went, oh my god, that's amazing.

And I told a couple of my friends, I'm like, but I'm not going to do it.

And I was like, and my one, at least from a car vol.

She sat me down and she said, nobody's taking this away from you.

You've wanted this for so long.

Your answer is yes.

And I just like cried and cried and cried.

And I was like, okay, then I'm going to do this.

And there was part of this that because I had this mentality of like, I'm done with

the internet.

I'm done with doing all this that I was like, what is there to lose?

Yeah.

So why not?

And then it ended up reminding me of my purpose.

It ended up like reinvigorating me.

It ended up, I got to do it with Lauren.

I got to do it with Hunter McGrady.

I got to do it with like some of the people that I've looked up to.

So much.

And I got to walk that runway.

I did not expect a positive response.

Again, I thought it was going to be bad.

But I promised myself that I was going to do this.

And I walked in a string bikini, which I know is like the quote unquote, not the flattering

choice to make.

I had a cover up and I will never forget.

I was determined to one not be silly about it.

I didn't want to be silly and funny and like, let's not make a mockery of this.

This is serious.

So I'm going to look hot.

I'm going to look fierce.

We're going to walk down this.

And I'm going to take off the cover up.

And I expected crickets.

Like, it's kind of like when you, it's a sports history runway.

I'm, I'm in Miami where I'm aware.

I'm not like outside of this world.

I know what these people are expecting.

I take it off and there was an eruption.

Oh, it was going to cry.

There's this woman to my left.

And I hear her go, that's a mother.

Oh, okay.

And I just, I'm like the week before my period too.

And I'm like, that makes me want to stop.

That's amazing.

And it was so unbelievable because I kind of forgot I had to walk a second time.

So I did that and I turned around.

And then it was like, oh, my God, I did it.

And there was like, get changed right now.

You've got to get back out there.

But that moment, that moment meant a lot.

And so then posting it online again, it got like 80 million views or something

and shit, one and a half million.

Like I have a pin to my profile.

It's like still one of my most proud moments.

Because I knew what it meant for me.

I really, at that moment, I didn't think it was going to be something that was accepted

and loved or adored.

I really did think it was going to be a crap reaction of a lot of crappy guys.

And I was just like, bring it on.

Let's fight.

But I really did it for me.

And so that moment was really beautiful.

And I think anybody who, anybody who's ever struggled with suicidal ideation,

you really struggled to find a why, you really struggled for a purpose.

And in that moment, even though I didn't need their applause,

I didn't need that eruption, it was like the universe was telling me to stay.

And like reminding me of like, even if it was like for this one thing

that like what I was doing mattered.

And so I could take the hate and I could take the bullying,

but I couldn't let them take me away.

Damn.

And so I came home and I remember sitting on my couch and showing it to my toddler

and she just, I just find kids are so beautiful because they just love you.

Yeah.

My daughter right now, she's really into K-pop demon hunters.

Yeah.

And in the show, the main character, she has these patterns

that makes her a half demon, half K-pop demon hunter.

But like, they look like stretch marks.

And so my daughter thinks I have these patterns.

And she's just like, oh my god, you're just like roomy.

And I did a little video of it and it also went viral.

But it was just like this sweetness.

Like, can we stop taking men's opinion on what they want for our bodies?

Which is like, they want us to look like nothing ever occurred for us.

And we haven't done these miraculous and amazing things

when like the little, the people, the society that we actually birthed

is actually looking at us and going like, you're awesome, you're the best.

Like, there's just, there was so much so coming home.

And there's these moments where I get to, like, my kids are, my older kids are, you know, adults now.

And I've just watched them.

I know everybody struggles with their body, but it's also just been really beautiful

to watch them live their lives in ways that I never did.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And because of how you showed up as a mom too.

I hope so.

I, I, I, I never know you can take credit.

It's like, listen, this is so fucked up to say.

But like, do you ever think about zero killers?

And if they're like, what if their moms are like really nice people?

And they just like, they was just the kid.

I do think about that only because I think of what if I birth a serial killer?

And there's nothing I can do about it.

I know.

So I'm just like, mums like, but yeah.

So I try and be like, you, there's no report card on motherhood.

I'm really proud of how I've showed up for myself in the ways that I would want them

to show up for their selves.

I don't want them to sit on the sidelines of their life.

And if I want that for them,

I, I need to want that for me.

And so there's been a couple of years now since all of that that I was like,

let's just say yes to things.

Yeah.

Did a reality show, did more like I got my body painted in paint and laid down on a canvas

in New York.

I did a bunch of other, I would, I've chosen outfits now that I think are a little bit

edgy or show different.

I just, I'm just leaning in.

Well, I love it.

I feel like this again comes with the way that we are aging compared to the generation

before us is so different because we're also getting

so empowered in different ways and showing up differently and owning our space and leaning

into the uncomfortable and then growing from the uncomfortable.

Like we're doing it so differently in the best way possible.

Yeah.

And it is funny because one of my favorite things, I had this girl in my podcast.

She's a comedian, but she's kind of into the political world.

But she said something and she goes, yeah, I don't really care if men find me attractive.

Like, and then she goes, later she goes, what I saw this clip.

Yes.

What are they not going to want to have sex with me anymore?

Don't have me with a good time.

Yeah.

And I was like, that's very funny.

But like, literally more women need to peel these onions.

This is why I brought up the love is blind and I was talking about this in my stories recently

because I'm like, it's so, and I do this a lot with Ross and Rachel and friends.

It's so easy for us to feel so like it's us and it's our fault.

We've changed our husbands, our partners aren't attracted to us.

They're echoing this.

They're saying, why don't you look the same way you did before blah, blah, blah.

And then you watch somebody else get told that they don't look good.

Like, they're not attracted to them physically.

Even though they've said, I want to spend my life with you sight unseen.

And now they're like, I'm not attracted.

You could do more.

You could work out more to like a little fucking beautiful doctor standing in front of you.

So like, we're, but then we can sit there and go, oh, that guy, that guy.

I'm not okay with this.

But then if you can see it for them, I need you to flip it back on yourself and go,

I'm also not okay with it for me.

I am more this woman role like she's a doctor.

Yeah, you are also a mother, a business woman, whatever the hell you're doing in this world.

I'm telling you it's more than what your body is.

So, but it's just hard for us to see it for ourselves and the relationships that we're actively in.

And I think using the examples of couples that aren't us on shows and these conversations

they can bring up can really put it into context.

I have two thoughts on this.

One, I totally agree.

It's, we can, we can scream at our TVs and see the beauty and other people.

And then while we sit there and shame ourselves so badly.

Yes.

To, I'm really stuck and torn on the humor of everyone calling him a short king.

And then, because I want to sit, yeah, I can't do it.

Because now we're body shaming him.

I know, saying like, he doesn't look like he does cross it.

And now we're attacking his body when this guy is very, in my opinion, seems mentally ill.

And like, doesn't know who the fuck he is.

Yeah.

And he needs outside validation so much.

So now we are trolling him to break him about his body and his looks.

When like, I go, okay, at the end of the day, he's a human being.

Obviously, something is not right in his brain.

And I do not agree with anything that I wanted to punch him in the dick.

I want to chop him in the throat.

But I wanted to just spit in his face, but everything.

But I didn't think, I don't think it's right to now turn on him and like bully his.

I would agree with this.

But I also like know that a lot of us like, you would say it.

And you'd be like, well, he started it and I totally get it.

I still don't train people for like participating in that, but I do agree with you.

Because I think like in the Michelle Obama of it all, like when they go low, we go high.

But that doesn't mean that we just like, write it off.

She recently was on a, I think it was on Colbert or something where she was just like,

we use the rage.

Like use the rage of what he did and those words and like, use it in your life.

Like, change the way that you that you see yourself or your move through the world

or the expectations and demands that you have of your body a little bit, like cut yourself

some slack.

Yeah.

But yeah, I agree.

I have the same weird pause of like, ooh, I don't want to, I don't want to do that.

And women do it to each other all the time.

All the time.

But like I also, I agree with you, I think like I don't want to let's not participate in

that either.

Yeah.

But like sometimes I am so surprised that men that look like somebody said, oh, this man

looks like a folded lawn chair.

I laughed really hard.

See, there's humor in it, like humor in it a little bit.

But yeah, like there's just like, sometimes there's just people that like, what are you?

Like what are you, like why are men allowed to just like exist and be average or mediocre?

But they expect these like, I don't know, like I don't even know what they, they expect

an AI now.

Like they expect, well, what is he dated in the past and clearly that hasn't worked for

him?

I don't know what she's been, one of the girls he's dated in the past that has been

really saying voicemails.

This is not, this is like, yeah, yeah, there's a, there's a lot to unpack here.

I saw she was on Reality Steve's podcast.

Yeah.

And showing voicemails and they're both sitting there listening, which he, I mean, he

just sounds like a dumbass.

But I'm like, oh God, now we're adding a now girl in who clearly wants some sort of attention

out of it.

And like, I'm sure she just wants to feel and is feeling very validated, which I get.

I get that.

I just wish, like and I haven't read all the things I, but from what I did read, he doesn't

have a threat for saying this.

And I just thought like, listen, I know what it's like to be on reality TV.

There is maybe if you're new to it and you're not like really media trained, you

don't really think about how these conversations are going to play out.

Sure.

You know, there's like edits and cuts and like things that can happen.

But like he did say these words, he's like, I don't want to sound like a dick.

And then you just said the most dickhead thing ever, but like you could come out of that

and go like, listen, I really needed to sit and realize like what I was creating value

in.

And like, this is an opportunity for, no, I don't regret saying that.

I was like, did he say that?

No, I don't.

From what I was like reading an article.

So maybe it's a miss quote, I don't know, but I, I, I haven't seen, I haven't seen anything

else.

It's, yeah.

I just, I mean, we don't know these people, you know, at all.

I know.

So you just wonder like, what has, what happened in his life to make him be such, yeah, you

know what?

There is always like that.

Her people hurt people, but like we don't need to be a punching bag for that hurt.

So like he needs to own his heart, he needs to figure out how to get that out.

Yeah.

He needs to figure out how to get validated and how to create, say, for environments

for women.

I'm just going to say like that, moving on, because that was good.

Okay.

Great.

I agree.

Thank you.

I do, it's the headphones.

It's the headphones headphones.

You're going to say cool.

You're holding a cigarette.

You're going to say cool.

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I did want to talk about because you do, you know, obviously you're so open, you share

everything.

You've talked about how you've shifted from sharing everything to keeping some things

a little private.

Yeah.

So God knows I can relate to that.

Can you talk about the ships?

So what changed, what kind of things do you want to keep private now and why?

Well, I think I used to just be an open book of everything and it was fine.

I could take it.

I could talk about it.

My audience got bigger.

I started to slip down into the 2024 of it all, which was like a really dark place.

It was like I was having a party and I was inviting everyone inside, like open door

policy, everyone come in, everyone come in.

And now it was like, okay, there's some stuff going on, guys, I need you to get out

of these rooms or like, hey, my kids are in those spaces, can you, I don't go upstairs

in the house.

Listen, I made the decision to be on social media.

My family has not.

I've always shared different dynamics of my life through like divorce and motherhood.

And then they just get, sometimes I feel like a frog on a table just being dissected.

And I guess I just really, I've watched so many people where I've like followed them

from the beginning and you know so much about them.

And then you slowly, like, you're like, oh, like they've changed, you don't really

share so much.

They just think they're too good or they never show their family anymore.

It's always about them.

And now I'm like taking a step back and going, oh, I got it.

There has been, and I really want to be clear is like, it doesn't make me not authentic

anymore that I'm not sharing everything.

People get very confused with that.

And I would be too, but now I'm on the side of it and I'm going, you know what?

The internet is very different now.

It's very different now.

Things have changed a lot.

You have to think about things like AI being able to use your image and your children.

And you have to think about the fact that the internet is forever.

You have to think about, I realize now and going through more things that sometimes you just

got to deal with what's going on inside the house and like show people the door a little

bit.

They're still going to peak in the windows.

They're still going to like try and script what they think is happening and put like

my page and my channel has been about myself, my body, and it's been about changes that

I've experienced in my life.

But I've been very careful to protect a lot of people.

And I think that there has been times where I've just, I'm not doing well.

So if I'm not doing well, I'm not going to be able to show up at all unless I create

some better boundaries for myself to just experience life offline.

This sounds so insane, but like giving up my phone for two weeks and doing traders.

Traders Canada to be clear.

That was the first time I became like inaccessible to people and I had no idea what was going

on online.

I had no idea it was going on in the world.

It like it deeply, deeply changed me.

It deeply, deeply changed me because I realized the value in offline relationships.

I realized the value in life undocumented, even though it was in the midst of a reality

show.

I came home very changed from that.

It was like, I needed this and I spoke with some of my friends and they're also just like

you just have a new piece about you.

And I'm like, I got to work for that.

At the end of the day, like I, if I dropped off the internet, people would still stay on

the internet and follow other people.

They would have other people to access and find joy from.

I'm not saying I wouldn't be missed, but like that's the reality of it.

If I get hit by a bus, you're just going to, nothing happens for any of them.

But in my world, that's a mother, that's a friend, that's a daughter, that's a sister,

like this is, I, I need to remember the most important parts and if I am suffering because

of this online world, I really got to make an evaluation on how I'm existing offline.

And if that makes people feel like, oh, I just don't feel like I see the real you anymore.

You still are, but you're still seeing the parts of me that like, hey, come in this

room.

I want you here.

Come and, let's, let's come and cuddle.

Like let's, like come into my room, like come into my space, to come into my main floor

of my home, but there's just parts of the house I don't want you, I don't want you to

go in.

And that's not because I don't love you and it's not because I, I just need to, I need

to protect the home.

Yeah, because you probably, you show up a certain way for so long and then there's burnout,

there's growth.

Yeah.

A lot of self protection happening and you realize how beneficial that is to you to even

just show up better.

Yeah.

Of course, for the most important relationships with your offline and then for online as

well.

Yeah.

It might look different to some people, but it feels different for me.

Yeah.

It's been very freeing.

It's been really beautiful.

And like, I also noticed the shift and I see it and sometimes I feel like, oh, I just

wish I had more to pull from.

But when you're going through a lot of things offline, like there's also just, it is going

to impact how you show up and you might show up a little bit more topically.

Listen, I'm like, I'm just going to do makeup videos now and I'm just going to, like,

I don't, I don't really know yet.

I've never, I've never known where I'm going and what I'm doing.

And that's been, I think I started my podcast with the line.

I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm doing it anyways.

And like that still is the thing.

Yeah.

So like it, it's all shifting.

It's all changing, but it's still me and I, I'm really proud of myself.

I'm really, really proud of myself because I think this is like, it's one of the hardest

things in the world to, like you said, self-preserve and like, that's, that's just where,

that's where I'm at.

Yeah.

And it's, it's funny because I feel like women are so conditioned to overexplain themselves

in a poor way, to remain, you know, likable online and all the ways that we have to show

up.

So it's like, was this like a gradual thing or was it really after traders Canada that

you came back?

And I think it was a little bit gradual, I think it was a little bit gradual, especially

because like in COVID, we were all in our home.

So I was sharing so much about our life and family, like every single day and then we

exit from that and just like, I just noticed a shift on the internet culture and just the

way that we were, it just became a little bit too much for me, but you're right.

Like our struggle with being rude as women is actually like, this is morbid, but think

about how many women have died because they were afraid to be rude.

They didn't want to say no to somebody that when they pulled their car up and asked for

directions or like, oh, can you help me with this?

Our inability to be rude or just come off as rude has actually like caused us to die.

So like we need to be better at like if you perceive my no or my, my like boundary here

as rude, like that actually isn't on me and like I matter more than what you, what you

might perceive, right?

Like so it's just, yeah, I think about that all the time, how many women have died at

the hands of serial killers because they just didn't want to be rude.

Wow.

Shit, that is dark.

It's dark, but it's like it's layered.

Yeah.

That's the core of the onion, but like go all the way out and like our inability to be

rude causes us a lot of pain.

Causes us a lot of discomfort.

And I'm not saying that you can't do it with like the sweetness and kindness that you

want to show up within the world, but it's like it really is okay to evolve and change

and create boundaries, especially when we're someone like me that like you kind of hit

the end and you're like, well, there's a choice here.

There's a choice to make here and I'm just realizing this is like what makes me feel

great.

I also really love spending time with other creators because like sometimes you just get

to be silly and you get to just do your stuff, but like I follow creators, I have no idea

what's going on.

I didn't know if they had kids.

I was, I was following this one woman, it was all her fashion, all her makeup.

I had no idea she was married.

I had, until I saw her in space, I was like, you are a husband.

I did not know.

I was unaware.

They didn't change the value in which I, I follow her for.

Yeah.

Well, I don't know why, I mean, this happens to be all the time where people want me to

be the same, look the same as I was on the Bachelor at 10 years ago.

Yeah.

And people expect that from me and when I'm not or when I've, maybe I've grown, maybe

I've remained still a bit like edgy or certain people are like, where's Caitlin from the

Bachelor at?

And I'm like, I hope I'm not the same as that person.

Yeah.

Like the you've changed.

Yeah.

Also has to be like you've changed.

Yeah.

Like that's so beautiful.

Like if you haven't changed, like, do we want that either?

Like I think, and I also think we really, a lot of us really have to take a look at the

internet has changed.

Look at AI a year ago to AI now.

I can't.

Internet is changing very quickly.

Our mental health around it is changing very quickly.

We need to change with it or we're not going to survive it.

How do we do that?

How do we do that?

Yeah.

I just think we have to constantly evaluate how we're showing up and like, oh, sure.

I posted, sometimes I'll look back and I'll be like, man, I should say some funny stuff

and I didn't think three ways about it.

Yeah.

Damn.

Like I think through like four different filters before I like, you know what I mean?

I know.

I do too.

And like one person is like, well, I didn't like, and I was like, ah, damn it.

And it's just, it's really, it's really hard to think through all these filters all

the time.

I used to just be like, whatever I know, I'm trying to go back to whatever.

Yeah.

I think the forties are going to give that to me.

But I think right now I'm in the protective bubble and then when I come out from that,

I think I'll, I think I'll feel, I think I'll feel a little different.

I always love how you've spoken about turning 40 and now 41 because you're the one that

told me that 40 is chic.

And I started saying that I was 40 so chic.

I think 40 chic, I think divorce is chic.

I think reinventing yourself is chic.

And so many people, you know, myself included fear aging, but I like growing up.

Like I like, I like getting into new ages and decades and but growing up also feels

really young.

Yeah.

That's what I mean.

When you said 28, you feel that's, I can't remember what I, I feel like I changed my

age all the time.

But like 28, 29, 30 is like around the age of eyes will always feel inside.

So I actually asked this question once if people feel the age they are and somebody asked

their 80 year old grandmother and she goes, no, I feel like I'm faking it.

Like she still feels like she's in her 20s and 30s and she's just like in an old body

but just like, I'm just like faking it till I make it.

But like you're, because I feel like that, I'm now like the, I'm at the age.

So I, my parents were young parents and then I was a young mother.

So my, if I do the math right here, I believe my parents were around 44 or 45 when they became

grandparents.

Oh, wow.

So we're talking like in three years.

I'm a grandmother.

But like I remember them being like, they've always been the more adulty person in the room.

My cousin and I talk about this all the time.

We're like, we're adults.

I know.

I know.

What?

We, we're doing it.

Like that's, we, I still have my parents.

So I still have this like, they're still the ones, the adultier adults in the room.

But then you realize that that's like when I think about growing up and the age of my

mother at like 35 and in my head that felt so old and now I'm like, it's so young, it's

so young.

40 is, 40 is young.

40 is very young.

50.

I even still think it's young.

It's just marketed as old because they know they can do that to us.

But like 40 is young and we need to start behaving like it's young.

We need to start acting like our age in the sense that like we don't give a ****.

Well people, people say that to me a lot is that I should grow up or act my age or address

my age and I'm always like, what does that mean?

What does that mean?

It just sounds like a box you're putting women in.

And but like again, let's go back and peel that onion.

And like, of course you want women to be small and quiet and unseen.

And that's where the superior says, yeah.

And but women also disappear from media and like advertising over the years.

Like you see less and less and less.

So you feel less represented.

So then you feel, I feel oftentimes I'm either too late to late or there's not

enough time type thing.

And like, and that perspective is really changed now as I've gotten older and have

welcomed opportunities that I wouldn't have imagined to be possible in your 40s.

No kidding.

Like I always keep thinking about the sports illustrated thing because I'm like,

that is so powerful that you were so you were a no.

And then you were, yes, you were scared and then you were empowered like all doing

it scared is confidence going from here to here on like the spectrum of how you feel

about something, it just from doing something that you're afraid of and seeing the benefit

of what that just did to your whole soul and being and to be more.

I think a lot of people when they talk about confidence or they look at confident people,

they're like, oh, they have something that I don't.

And I hear this all the time, like I wish I had your confidence.

And I'm like, I wish I had the confidence you think I have to.

I am making a choice.

And like the confidence sort of follows it.

Like you're standing there, you're on this stage, you're on this platform.

There's no other choice but to walk forward.

You might fall, you might trip, people might boot.

You don't know what's going to happen.

But the confidence is actually that you took the step forward.

It's not that you didn't without fear.

It's not that you did it.

And like it's because of what you're wearing or it's it's never been those things.

I always like the analogy of like a power suit has no power on the hangers.

Like we give credit to things that aren't the like that's not the thing.

Like yes, you got a new haircut or that lipstick that make up looks good on you

or that outfits amazing.

But like none of those things matter when it's not you at the core.

And your confidence can't be hinged on all these variables.

But like they can be part of it.

Listen, I feel like 5% more confident with the spray tin.

Can't explain it.

You can't explain it.

Don't know what that is.

I don't know, yeah, when my hair is freshly done, I get it.

But also time, money, investment in myself.

Like these are all things that are also those things.

But I think a lot of people think that confidence is doing it without fear.

And I'm telling you every single time I'm doing anything.

Literally, I was like crapping my pants about this podcast this morning.

So I was like, and I've done this so many times with you, like my period is also coming

next week.

Oh, there's like, yeah.

We're playing my pieces.

Yeah, we're, what is, I wonder if that's a, there's a name for that.

Blood sisters.

Sure.

That's the one.

Yeah, like there's just, but there's a lot of second guessing, a lot of fear.

Confidence is for me, a choice.

It's like doing it scared, but I'm doing it.

So like that, it, what does it matter?

It's my favorite, favorite thing I said all the time to it scared it's, if you don't,

you're going to look back on your life and do the what if the way that you, you articulate

things is what I'm thinking in my brain.

And then you just say it really, oh, that's really lovely.

So many things that you've said, I'm like, God, that's exactly what I've been trying

to say for so long.

I just like, I sometimes when I really struggle with finding the ability to do something

for myself in the very moment, I think about myself at 80 who like doesn't care as much

her fucks are so gone.

And she just wants a good story.

So if you get up and you fail, hilarious, great story, you're going to talk about it forever.

And if it goes, well, you're also going to tell that story.

But the story you don't tell is the things that you didn't do.

So what, when you rather do the things that you want to do and reach for scared on the

risk of failure because that's better, so when I can't quite grasp something for myself

in the moment, I think of 80-year-old me and I'm like, damn, she needs a story, guys.

She needs something.

Let's feed her.

Let's give her something for the retirement home.

Yes, that's bad.

That's bad.

I think about that too.

I don't know why.

I also think of 80.

Oh, yeah, 80.

Yeah, I think that's like, it's referenced a lot like our 80-year-old sells.

Yes.

The average lifespan is 72, but 80 feels great.

Is it?

Is it changed?

I know.

We're not smoking and drinking as much.

So I hope it's changed.

I hope so too.

But then smoking is back, though.

No, it's not.

Smoking is cool again.

No, not in my world.

I think that they should bring back the Popeye cigarettes to sort of offset this.

Just a candy.

Oh my gosh.

I hate cigarettes.

I like the look of it.

You know what, Hudson Williams?

This might be your fault.

Love you.

Why?

Because he looks so good with a cigarette.

Oh.

He's been a Puffit-Huffin and Puffin around.

I feel really embarrassed that I don't know who that is.

What?

Caitlin.

Oh, God.

He did rally.

Oh, doughy, doughy, doughy, doughy.

I'm on, I've been stuck on episode three because I am now wait till episode four, episode four

is when I was like, really?

I am reading three different books at the same time right now.

Yeah, no.

I'm watching four different shows because I want to podcast with you.

I am like, episode four is the bar scene.

That was like the reason I started watching it.

It was just like, what is this?

I've never seen like, angst and yearning played out so perfectly in a way that you

could just feel it.

Oh, it's, I'm so excited for you.

Have you seen Weathering Heights?

No, I'm going next week.

Oh, okay.

Then I won't say anything.

Oh, my God.

Talk about the yearning.

The yearning, the yearning.

Okay.

But is it like devastating or horny both and also very red flaggy and like maybe we need

these examples.

We need the Ross Gellers.

I know.

Okay.

I, we've always had different opinions on this because Ross is my favorite character.

You could love him.

He is a walking red flag.

But I still love his bathroom.

Yeah.

Terrible way.

It's hilarious.

Yeah.

So funny.

But with Jacob Lardy, I'm like, the whole, the whole thing is all very f***ed up and dark,

but also it's very romantic, but also it's very toxic, but also it's very, like, it's

the same piece.

I'll see it and I'll review, but I'll tell you right now, I'm not against like a little,

a little obsessive weirdness and yearning.

No, no.

Not against it.

We did this like, we read a dinner.

I was with Bales and we were like at this whole dinner and her friend Kai was, my friend

Kai too.

Hi, Kai.

Um, did this like game and we were talking about different things.

I'm not going to like say the name of the game because like maybe she markets this, um,

but there was a question of if somebody, unless you're dating somebody and they made a shrine

about you, you find out a month into dating.

This is like a great relationship and you go over and you find a shrine.

Yeah.

Of yourself.

This happened to me.

But are you complimented?

No.

No, are you X?

I'm X.

I'm X.

Because I was like, I'm not out.

Really?

I think I have to live through it.

But Lex was also at the dinner like Lex Niko and she, her and I were also like, well, we're

just not surprised.

Like you should love us this way.

Make a shrine.

Why is that off the, why is that off the table?

I was also 19 when the shrine was made and maybe this feels a little different and I wasn't

as into it, obviously, as he was.

So if it was Jacob now and he was obsessed with me, I feel like that would be really

hot.

As long as there's other safety things like why the shrine, I think we need to know

that are they hexing you or are they manifesting love?

Is it like a, is like a dream board and like, this is my dream person and I want to like

cherish and love them or is it like an obsession they can never leave me?

We have to know the intent.

Yeah.

Before we can downgrade the shrine and like write it off.

Always so many questions to a deep question like that because we don't know that, but

is it, is it a totally off the table?

No.

I don't know.

No, I'm rethinking.

I mean, so obviously that feels a little different.

That's okay.

Honestly, maybe it should be for you.

Yeah.

It is.

But would you be surprised that somebody's obsessed with you?

They should be.

No.

I wouldn't be surprised.

Sometimes I get surprised that people aren't as obsessed with me that I go, why did

you not make me a shrine?

Yeah.

Now I wonder why I don't have one and but I want like a mental one.

Like I want to know that they're mentally shrining me and are like a shrine business by

a shrine.

But it's more of a vision board and so it's like a healthy shrine.

That's a healthy shrine.

Now the word shrine sounds weird.

Yeah.

We're saying it too many times.

It's one of those.

I'm like, that's not even a real word.

Okay.

Shrine.

Hi.

I really want to come up with a great name for it.

Um.

Shrines for you.

No.

Sunshrine.

Sunshrine is great.

Sunshrine and lollipops.

Yep.

Yeah.

I love thinking of a good name with that has a pun in there.

I just saw somebody who for their family, for their birthday every year, like makes them

a shrine.

Oh.

So like this isn't bad.

Well, a family shrine is amazing.

Justice for the PR of shrines.

They need to make a cup.

I remember there's a guy that I was really good friends with in high school and his parents

definitely had a favorite child and he had a shrine and a basement and the daughter did

not and he did.

Now I'm reading it.

Now I'm reading it.

That's a Ross Geller.

That is a Ross Geller.

Are you describing Ross Geller and his parents who had a shrine?

Right.

Yeah, they did.

Remember because all of Monica's stuff was destroyed when they had kept everything

of Ross's sea.

That's.

That was this.

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Really quickly to touch on PMDD because I did want to talk about that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think it's important.

How do you show up in the world when PMDD is got you down?

And when did you realize it, like, it wasn't just normal PMS?

Like when did you realize, because this was very new for me.

Yeah, so it's really interesting because PMDD, for those of you that don't know, it's

like PMS, but on a very high end scale.

So anything that you're experiencing, like, let's say you're struggling with like high

anxiety, maybe even like really dark thoughts, like mine got quite dark.

But sometimes these things are quite normalized.

Like I actually, this was not my regular doctor.

So like shout out to my regular doctor who took this seriously.

But I actually went and I was like, hey, I thought about driving my car off the road.

And she goes, this is so common for mothers.

And I went, I don't know that I should be.

You're kidding.

Yeah, so like, we can't take common for normal.

Like that can't be the thing.

Was she trying to just like validate you to make you feel better?

But at the same time, that's not helpful.

Yeah, I think she was like, that's something we hear a lot, type of thing.

But I was like, we got a dig deeper.

This is not normal for me.

However, this all started for me because I did have these days.

I would have these really, really low days.

And I would have really catastrophic thinking and very high anxiety and some dark thoughts.

But hey, three days later, felt great.

So you don't really notice.

You don't really take it seriously.

If you have something and you're like, oh, clearly I fixed it because I feel fine now.

So I actually, three years ago, I actually stopped drinking alcohol because my migraines

were really bad.

But through that, I was actually tracking my period symptoms.

And with that, it asked you like, for mood things.

And I was tracking like headaches and stuff like that.

But I was noticing my anxiety and stuff all coming in the exact same times.

And these suicidal thoughts were also happening during this time.

It was getting worse.

I also was like, somewhere between postpartum and perimenopause, which I think was like,

maybe a catalyst.

I think a lot of women as they approach perimenopause, that could also be happening.

I don't really have the answers for this.

But it could happen at any age.

The statistics around it are terrifying.

From what I've read, about 86% experienced suicidal ideation, about one third can make an

attempt on their life.

We now go and look back and say, how many women lost their lives and we didn't know this

is what it was.

It took so much awareness around postpartum before people took it seriously.

PMDD is sort of like that.

But I had only learned about it from a couple of people I follow online who had been sharing

their experiences.

And I was like, huh, this sounds like me.

But I really needed to make sure that I wasn't just like self-diagnosing because somebody

I followed online had it.

Because listen, there's a lot of things that people will describe symptoms and I'm like,

oh, that's definitely me.

But I went through the proper process of like start with self-suspecting.

Second started tracking.

I went in with data to my doctor with about six months of data of like these fluctuations.

And I started to talk about options.

I highly, highly, highly recommend her mood mentor.

She's on, she's like a PMDD doctor of some sort.

I don't know her exact title.

She was on my podcast once and she talks so much about the fact that this is both physiological

and psychological.

So things like cardio, hydration can actually impact it's like the symptoms that come out

from it.

But it's also psychological.

So yes, your fluctuations of hormones and how that's impacted month to month impacts

you and the final result of it.

So I feel like I'm managing a lot better because I have this awareness at the beginning.

It felt like devastation.

Vicki Pattinson, if you follow her, she is incredible.

She talks on PMDD so well because she was one of like the first women to really come

forward with it.

And she describes it as like building a sand castle and you build it and you build it and

you build it.

And then the wave comes and it washes it all the way.

And you're like, okay, I got to start again.

You know that wave is coming, but you have no choice but to keep rebuilding over and

over.

That can feel, for me, it felt very overwhelming.

I was very sad.

I was like, I went from the relief of a diagnosis to, oh my god, it's every month.

Yeah, I always call it clockwork, which is like the most devastating clockwork.

It's like clockwork.

And there isn't really a lot of options and solutions.

So it's a lot of like learning about yourself and managing.

I actually was training for a 10k around the time of my diagnosis and I did actually

see a huge change in some of my symptoms because I was doing more cardio.

Yeah, like understanding that the nourishment of my body actually changed the outcome of

these things.

Like I had to look at these, I had to look at everything from a different angle and light

and like this is how we survive.

I also went to Disney, a ridiculous amount of times during that time because I recognized

that like, I honestly, I didn't know I was going to make it.

I really didn't know if I was going to make it.

It got really bad.

And so I was like, listen, having something to look forward to, like a trip was like keeping

me going some days.

It was really hard.

I couldn't make, I can't make business decisions during those days.

Nope.

Relationships, I have to be very like, hey guys, like these are the days and everyone's

very, I have to seek, if I'm not able to cook food for myself, make sure that I have

like cereal and milk in the house and like eat, just make sure I am eating for a lot of

people when they struggle with mental health, they eat more, I eat less.

So I go into, so people will be like, you're losing weight.

I'm like, if you see me losing weight, I'm likely not doing well.

I might be doing well, might be a bit, it might be something good, but it also is more

likely that I'm not, I'm not doing well.

So I, under eat, so I have to be prepared for very low needs things and because all of

my energy is going to showing up for my kids and I'm just like, end of the day, like

that's, I've got it.

So yeah, I'm very proud of myself for how I've managed.

I remember when you announced your diagnosis and it felt like, it just, it feels like there's

more and more people coming forward with it and like having these diagnosis and it brings

this community, it's a club that none of us want to be in and I'm, but I'm so glad we're

not alone.

Totally.

It's so interesting because I always think about how I show up online and I'm like, it's

so, because people would never know that I had PMDD unless I talked about it because

in those moments, if you think I'm pulling out a phone, I, I have like the most epic meltdowns,

but again, I, so what helped me is I went on medication.

Now that's obviously not for everybody.

I did it at the beginning as well, but selexa I went on and it changed my whole life.

It just definitely helped the, it was the self awareness and the, and being diagnosed

and having a name for it and not feeling alone and the medication because I definitely

like, I would, I would, I've always said this, it was just so much stronger than me,

I would definitely have very bad dark thoughts.

Yeah.

I remember like, middle of the night, always, never, yeah, swing cortisol spikes for a lot.

And I was like, what is wrong with me?

Yeah.

I definitely now looking back, I can say that like, no, I wasn't crazy, obviously, but in

those times, like relationships and past partners probably thought I was insane because

I didn't understand what was happening to me and it wasn't all the time.

It was just three days of really, really bad darkness where I was wanting to pull up

my hair.

I wanted to hit myself and like the rejection sensitive disorder that is often connected

to it, which is like, basically, somebody says something, they send you a text and it

just sounds off.

Yeah.

And you think, oh, no, like, is this, is this ending?

Like I didn't get a warm hug from partners when I was like, this, they're like, oh god,

I got to get away.

Yeah.

It's nobody knows what to do, right?

So it's kind of like the relationship failures are actually quite high, but in friendships,

one of my, one of my really best friends just also got diagnosed and I remember, I kind

of suspected it for her as well, but I was so glad that we have community with each other.

So we just speak of it like, oh, these are my days right now.

When are your days?

And we sort of like now have this understanding of like, you just check in a little bit more.

You just, you've got to, we can't rely on everybody to be doing that for us and knowing

how dark it is, a very simple, heart emoji or just, I love you.

It doesn't, as long as you're not asking for anything like you won't get anything from

me during those times, but distraction has worked really well.

It's actually funny on traders.

I had told them that I had this condition and they said, are you going to have it during

the time of filming?

And I said, no, it'll be before.

But then my cycle was off and I did have it.

And like, you just see me crying and I'm just like, I'm sorry guys, I have this condition.

I'm just like, I'm crying like, I suck this game.

That's the worst when it happens because your cycle shifts because of something life

events.

Yeah, whatever.

And then all of a sudden you're like, wait, I was like, I just like, I'm really bad at

this game.

Yeah.

And I'm just like, I watch back and I was like, oh, that's just like, yeah, a clearly

way period was coming.

But I'm also like, so proud because I'm like, I still, I did all of these things.

I actually got through it.

I think that crying, like when people talk about, I saw something recently on a podcast.

I don't remember who it was.

It was just something I found on Instagram.

They said like, how do you manage your emotions?

And she was like, crying is managing your emotions?

Like crying is it?

Like we're allowed like, and so sometimes a really good release can make a huge difference.

I also have like, I have a couple like comfort movies.

I have comfort.

Like you just get in.

I watch Moana.

Yours is Moana.

Yeah.

You don't want to know.

What do I do?

I do want to know.

Mine's black phone one.

What's that?

Black phone?

Yeah.

It's like Ethan Hawke and Mason Thames.

I love a good movie.

That's a rough off of, oh my God, it don't change your life.

It is so creepy.

And look, the cover of it looks like a horror movie.

And it kind of is.

It's about a serial killer in like the-

This is a cover movie.

I know.

I know you need to hear me out.

This kid has had the world has knocked him down over and over and over.

And now he's in the basement of a serial killer.

And he is defeated.

But he has this gift.

And the phone is all the past victims.

And they all start to teach him how he's going to fight back.

But he doesn't have the fight in him.

So without giving too big of a spoiler,

you get to see him get up and you get to see him fight.

And there's something about watching somebody

be so beat down and so struggling,

but then at the end, you get to watch him get up and fight.

And I will sit and I will sob during that.

My other movie is Twister,

so I don't know what that says about me.

Then there's mine, the Moana, I'm just like,

Oh, but Moana also just like fuck me up.

I just cry.

You gotta get on a Disney cruise

and see the Moana stage show.

Like the Broadway show, it is like,

everybody knows on this podcast that I am not a cruise gal.

No, I wasn't either.

Actually, I remember that.

Disney Cruise will change you.

Okay, I would try it if I'm going to go on any cruise.

Yeah, you can do it.

And you can just do like a three-nighter,

so you're not like not really.

I was with Justin Pesuto,

who was also saying that like Jillian's husband,

he was like so nervous about a cruise.

We were on, he loved it.

Sorry, I don't want to quote for him,

but I mean, I was there.

He was having a great time.

He was having a great time.

It was a lot of fun.

We went to the haunted mansion bar.

It was great.

I mean, anything's great with that company.

Yeah, yeah, they do a great job.

They are showed out.

I'm obsessed.

Jillian's just on a cruise, Disney.

Send us on a Moana with Disney Cruise.

If you send me on a Moana cruise, I'll go.

I'll go.

I'll go with you.

You know, they have European ones.

Yes.

I want to go on a European one.

I don't.

That's fine.

I just want to go to Europe.

I'll go to Bahamas.

I'll go to Bahamas, but I want to be stuck on a cruise.

No, they'll drop you off on their little beach.

And you can go swim in the water.

And you can dive down and find Eric.

Like the statue of Eric.

What?

For real though?

Yes, you can snorkel.

And they have a snorkeling area.

They have their own private island.

And you go and you snorkel.

And you find the seat from the dumber ride

is in the ocean.

And then Eric, literally the statue of Eric

from the little mermaid in the water.

And you go and snorkel and see it.

Don't they say something strange about adults who love Disney?

Oh, I'm sure they say a lot of strange things.

I'm on this earth because I'm a Disney adult.

I don't, I give no apologies.

It, my, you know, so many people

are looking to heal their inner child.

I'm looking to keep her alive.

She's, she's the best parts of me.

Oh, I like that.

Yeah, I had a really beautiful childhood

and my parents were Disney adults.

Wow, okay.

Honeymoon did Disney.

No, they didn't.

Yes, they did.

And I, they hadn't gone for like 20 years,

but I brought them back and we all went together.

And then it's sort of like it.

Are your parents still together?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And they're like, their house is like a Disney house now.

Ever since we went back, they like fully.

Yeah, they spent their 40th anniversary.

They went for two weeks.

They drove down.

They did a park like every third day

and like they just walked around and did all the stuff

and like, just, it was, yeah,

it's been so fun watching them have fun.

I went on a girl strip two doing it

and I was like, there's something about

getting to be kids with your friends that are adults.

You never got to have that.

I totally agree with that statement.

Yeah, so yeah, I'm a Disney adult,

but like, get Christina Perry on here.

She's got lots to say.

She's got good, she's got.

Really?

Oh, she's the biggest Disney adult.

Okay.

Look up, her daughter's name is Pixie.

Oh, that's a really cute name.

Yeah, she has her Disney tattoos.

I got into Club 33 once and I texted her

and I was like, you'll never believe where I am.

I'm in Club 33 and she texted.

It's like the secret club in Disney.

Shut up.

You can only get in by invite

and she sends me a picture back

and it's her tattoo of the Club 33 symbol

and I was like, oh yeah, she's like the leader.

She's up there.

She was on my pod and I was like, can you tell me

the story of how you became a Disney adult?

And she was like, well, I was dating this guy.

He was a huge Disney adult at the time

and I go, who was it, John Stamos?

And she goes, yeah.

No, I was like, what?

John Stamos is a Disney adult?

The biggest.

I was at D23, which is like their big conference

when they announced all the things

and he came out and he was like, say it loud.

Say you proud, Disney adult.

And I was like, John Stamos.

Oh, Jessie.

This guy, he's old, yeah, he loves it.

He loves it.

So yeah, listen, I love it.

Again, I went to Disneyland once.

Nope, twice, once with when I was 19,

I was in love with this guy in Vancouver

and then this guy that I was in love with back home

in Edmonton came to visit and it was very confusing.

Yeah.

And he ended up taking me to Disneyland

but I realized in Disneyland,

I was in love with the other one, not him.

Ooh, wow.

And so Disneyland became very like, I didn't enjoy it

because I was like, get me home.

Yeah, you need to have a new experience.

Well, and then I went when you're the bachelor at it

because you're part of the Disney family,

you get to go and I got all the VIP

and then I was like, well, that's how you do it.

Yeah, but you gotta go do Disney World on the VIP.

Okay.

There's four parks.

Okay.

Do you like Avatar?

Yeah, I'm okay on it.

But there's a ride there where you're literally riding

a banshee and like you have 3D glasses

and it's the closest.

You'll actually get to flying.

Like I wept, like it's beautiful.

Oh, that's cool.

And Tron, yeah, it's all very cool.

It's all very cool and fun.

Somebody could tell me on being a Disney adult.

I know that.

Yeah, listen, it's the power of suggestion.

You fight with joy, this is me.

I feel like we have so many things that we put out there

for like how we're going to survive adulthood

and life and our mental health.

Whatever your joy is, use that as your fight.

Wow.

My joy is sometimes riding on a ride

where I just forget about everything else

and I fight with what makes me happy

and it doesn't have to make sense to everybody

if it makes sense to me.

So right now I'm playing a lot of animal crossing.

Yeah, wait, I love that dancing's up for me.

Dancing and singing.

Girl, I wish I could dance.

My daughter got really into dancing

with the stars this year and she's like,

do you think you would ever?

And I was like, please, no.

I really?

First of all, cute, you think I would ever be honest.

Maybe that would be a dance you would say Canada.

Imagine, but like I genuinely,

my kids were playing Just Dance

and like it tells you the moves to do

and I was like, 30 seconds, I'm terrible.

Did you enjoy it though?

No, okay.

If there is like a little,

if I'm like out with my friends

like that I actually just don't care what anybody thinks,

I enjoy the moving of my body.

I dance alone at home all the time.

But I just, the same way that I can't remember a lyric properly.

Sometimes I do like a lip sync video

and I'm like, oh, you're saying the wrong words

the entire time.

I found one of those in my drafts this week

and I was like, you never know the words.

I've been singing songs for like 30 years

and I still don't know the words.

The same way I just can't remember dance.

I can remember movie quotes and dance choreography

like nobody's business song lyrics, not so much.

I wish I could learn to line dance.

You should come to Nashville

and we could take line dancing lessons.

I'll do it.

You feel like you time travel back in time.

There's this one bar.

I haven't seen you in Nashville in a hot minute.

Last time I went, it was like a dog tour.

I was with Doug the pug and you're two.

And I just have all these photos of me snuggled up on your sofa.

And there's a picture that we took together on that track.

And everyone thinks we look like everyone thinks

that we look like sisters.

We do look like sisters.

It's, but like we're different heights.

But there's, there's something.

It's like our eyes are something that people like you guys

look like sisters.

But it's also like one of the only photos I have with you.

It's like whenever it was your birthday

and put it up and everybody was like,

you look like sister.

You were blonde at the time.

I was very blonde.

You were very blonde.

Yeah.

We'll take a redo.

We're going to see what happens.

I'm going lighter right now because I want to go copper soon.

Ooh, that with your eyes would be so good.

That's why we look like sisters.

We have the same eyes.

Yeah, yours are a little bit lighter.

But like look at the Whitney Levitt of it.

I know her when she went copper.

I was like, I know she looks so good.

I've known her for years.

What?

Yeah, I like, I met her in Utah.

I met a few of the girls before the show or anything.

Wow.

At a conference.

Yeah, she was speaking at it.

I was speaking at it.

About what?

And Macy were attending.

And it was like a, it was like a, I met Chrissy Sarah there.

It was wild.

And that's when I got introduced to Dirty Soda.

Oh, interesting.

Wow.

And that's why I thought it was so interesting

when they got the show.

I was like, oh, I knew Whitney before all of this stuff.

And I just, it was funny when people were deciding

that she was the world's biggest villain.

And they were just like, how could you,

I'm like, I've known her from before all of this.

And like she, I'm so, I'm so happy for her.

I just saw she got extended in New York.

Her family's moving there.

It's, I really, again, like her final dance with Mark

and like the messaging around that.

Brilliant.

There's something about somebody.

And sometimes when the internet gets loud for me

or like I just hear it too much,

I guess is the difference.

The internet's always loud.

But when I hear it too much, I think about them.

I think about the mom talk girls.

They just keep getting up.

Yeah, they really do.

They are the black phone kid.

They're the black phone kid of society.

They're that.

They are that.

Oh my god.

You have to watch black phone and tell me what you think.

I'm going to tonight.

It might feel a little bit scary,

but it's very, very good.

I like spooky.

Oh, you'll love it then.

He'll love it.

Is it on one of the streaming networks?

It must.

OK.

I had a great time on this podcast.

Yeah, great to be back.

I haven't done this since the live show.

Wow.

Is it really?

I did too.

No, we did too.

We did it.

We did a Vancouver.

We did Toronto.

Do you remember what?

Ramen came out to like the Lion King song.

I don't know what that was.

He was my only baby at the time.

Oh, listen, he was the internet's baby.

He still is.

Honestly, he's the best thing that's ever happened to me.

And I remember he was so sneaky when I first got him.

He was very like mischievous and sneaky.

And he would try and like get out.

And I'd be like, I'm trying to give you a good life here.

He liked the streets.

Like you'd run out of the door and want to be outside and like go.

I always just run in traffic.

Also find it so funny.

Whenever people like ask me about you,

the one thing that I always think is like the funniest thing

I realize is that it's like all of you, you and your dogs,

were just like scaled to like 75% font size.

So if you see you all online, you just assume these are huge dogs.

And that you're just like five, 10, and then you meet.

And you're just like, oh, you're all just like tiny versions.

Like they're little golden.

They are little golden.

They hold them like a baby.

Yeah, that just was my fun.

I was like, it's literally when you're at 100% font

and you shrink it to 75% that's you in the dogs.

I like that.

Yeah, that's a funny thought because it is the most golden.

Like the one I had with Sean was 102 pounds.

Tucker was 102 pounds.

And Robin and Pino are both like 52.

Yeah, they're little babies.

The little faces are just.

I'm obsessed with them so much.

That's so leathery and Toronto.

I look at the pictures of them so much.

That's actually ridiculous.

Thank you so much for being here.

Thank you.

Well, let's not have like another five years before.

All right.

OK.

Do you know that like, OK, yes, a photo was the reason

like I blew up on the internet and said for the first place,

but also this podcast.

No, it was.

I hadn't even quit my day job yet.

Really?

I had 80,000 followers.

You had me on because you had seen something.

It was like in the same time of like that photo and things

like that, but I came on.

You mentioned me in your story.

This is like the way of the internet at that time

and like versus now.

You mentioned me in your stories

and I grew 10,000 followers overnight.

I was on the podcast.

It was like another 10,000, 20,000.

It just like I will always have so much love

and adoration for you and this show

because it was the first like, it was like one of my big breaks.

I ended up quitting my job like a month after it.

Oh, yeah.

And then I became full-time.

I will always say they're like some of the best.

Yeah, they are.

They're really, really great.

You've cultivated a very cool community of people

and any of them that I've ever come over to my side

of the internet, I love them.

Because I know that you've created a group of women

that like are so cool and chill and like they seem

like they are part of internet culture

but like on the right side of it.

I know, not all.

I know we can't generalize it, but like the for the most part.

I agree.

Really, really great.

Any time I do a live show or meet a vinyl in the wild,

I'm always like, I can't believe it.

I have different friends with them.

I watched it.

We were in Vancouver and I came inside and I was like,

Caitlin, they're around the block for you.

It was like, but like in the online world, you do,

like yes, you can see, oh my gosh, like a little 80,000 people

watching my stories.

It's the same as like it.

I know it's crazy.

But like to see it in real life and like people lining,

I was just, it's one of the most magical things

I've ever been able to witness.